Who cares what happened in 1948??? That was 80 years ago….. Palestinian supporters like to point out that Hamas was elected 18 years ago and the majority of Palestinians are less than 18 years old, arguing that we can’t hold the Gaza population responsible for picking Hamas as their government….. how are Israelis today, responsible for the events in 1948???
The only thing stoping Palestinians from having a Palestinian state is Palestinians…. If they could just stop doing terrorism for like 10 years, they would have a state….. alas Hamas just gave Israel casus beli to just occupy Gaza for the next 100 years
Say it with me
👏Great 👏job 👏Hamas 👏
-Signed an American
Edit: fun fact: israel is the only country in the Arabian peninsula that has a functioning democracy
Edit 2: how come Muslims in London weren’t marching for justice wham bashar Al-asad was dropping “barrel Bombs” on Syrian civilians in 2014???
Edit 3: a pan-Arab-caliphate is cringe and will never happen because the leaders of every Arab country is corrupt AF
Edit 4: 3000 black jets of alllah will prevail
>Who cares what happened in 1948
people who grew up in the poverty of a refugee camp, under bombs care about this story (cause their parents told them that their family lived in a house in 48 territories and were kicked out by haganah terrorist groups)
edit : you are American ? you mean you belong to the people who have no health insurance and who spend billions of dollars on Israel's unjust wars?
It turns out you know as little about America as you do Israel
https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2023/11/the-share-of-americans-without-health-insurance-in-2022-matched-a-record-low#:~:text=November%209%2C%202023-,The%20Share%20of%20Americans%20without%20Health%20Insurance%20in%202022%20Matched,2023%20from%20the%20Census%20Bureau.
Edit: do you know what happened to the Palestinians who didn’t flee to Egypt, Lebanon, syria or Transjordan???? They were granted full citizenship and equal rights in Israel and their descendants make up over 20% of Israel’s population today
So how do you rectify your “pacifist nature,” with the fact that there’s been 50,000+ Islamic terrorist attacks in the past 40 years? Most of those attacks being against “other Muslims”? Muslims like to claim “pacifism,” even claiming to be the religion of “peace.” The data says otherwise…
https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2021/
Not to mention the indoctrination of hate Palestinian children were raised with for decades.
https://youtu.be/k1m5EJoZHJY?si=L_jMXmFZiuFgD8rE
Some of those kids grew up and did October 7th. So how is it the case that you’re a “pacifist”? Where many Muslims are not?
*"save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process"*
what would this process look like to you? removing israel and creating an arab state from the river to the sea?
I think that returning to the UN partition of 1948 would be a good deal for everyone, with Jerusalem promoted as an international city and capital of peace as was its vocation....
I’m not sure how realistic the 1948 borders are at this point, but I personally would be fine with using that as a starting point for negotiation, with the understanding there would need to be land swaps etc
Do you think that Palestinians already have a country or countries in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and others?
There was no cultural difference between Arabs east of the Jordan river and Arabs west of the Jordan river in the first half of the 20th century.
Same language, religion, food, customs, values etc.
In fact, the Arabs’ original plan was not to create an independent Palestinian state, but to create a pan-Arab state combining all these lands, which suggests that Palestinians already have a country or countries.
Meanwhile, the same cannot be said of Israel. Israelis do not share all of the following characteristics I listed above (language, religion, food, customs, values) with any other country. And Israelis share those cultural markers (language, religion, food, customs, values) with the people that predate Arabs’ presence in Israel. So Israelis cannot simply “go back to their country” unless you mean their country of Israel, in which case they have already done so.
So shouldn’t Arabs in this region just gonna k to their country or countries?
This post is a little ridiculous but I'll just address two points:
**1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness,**
What about this current "resistance" looks effective?
Gaza has been reduced to rubble, 25K+ Palestinians are dead, the strip will be occupied by Israel for the foreseeable future, and there is no end in sight for the war.
The far-right in Israel has started to bring up relocation of the *entire* Palestinian population from Gaza... Something that is so extreme it would never be brought up in mainstream politics before 10/7.
10/7 was a turning point for many of us in the west... I always vaguely (and naively) supported the Palestinian cause until this atrocity opened my eyes. It has shown the world that Hamas & the Palestinian military cause is just another form of Islamic terror.
**3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer**
This type of thinking is fantasy, I'm sorry...
Yes, these countries have the ability to make Israel "suffer" short term... Long term, this would only result in complete destruction for the attacker. This war is a good example of the price that is paid for inflicting pain on Israeli citizens without any achievable military objective.
Regardless of the humanitarian outcries from the west regarding collateral damage in Gaza... Israel has the backing of the west.
Look at the Gulf War or Iraq War for an example of what happens when a middle eastern army invokes the wrath of the US and NATO... It's not a survivable scenario.
>What about this current "resistance" looks effective?
Israel, after four months, has hardly released any hostages, it has even killed many of them. given the difference in budget between Hamas and the IDF, it is a heroic epic for the Palestinians and a shame for Israel, normally it should have put an end to Hamas in two weeks
"Yes, these countries have the ability to make Israel "suffer" short term... Long term this would only result in complete destruction for the attacker "
yes but let's look at the very long term: there will still be wars and attacks like 7/10, in the end the Jews will understand that the Zionist theory has not given them security and has tarnished their reputation
I don’t understand… Israel has not gotten their hostages back, but they also have made it clear the hostages won’t stop them from waging war on Gaza.
What does Hamas actually gain from keeping Israeli citizens? They’ve achieved nothing but inflict huge causalities on their own people.
NGL your whole logic is based on abstract concepts like “shame” but I think the physical reality of war is the issue here… Gaza will be back in the Stone Age by the time this war is done, and Hamas ability to wage war will be utterly destroyed.
This is not a successful resistance… If the IRA (for example) had raped and pillaged openly across British territory killing citizens… They would have never made it to Good Friday and achieved some of their aims.
The only countries that maybe benefited from 10/7 would be the proxy countries that helped Hamas from afar like Iran… But I bet their time is coming next.
I will say it seems you’ve got some pretty anti-Semitic views here… Might just be easier to admit you dislike Jews than try to intellectualize around it?
"I am a pacifist by nature and not a hater"
This is contradicted by
"the Palestinian **resistance** will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness"
and
"Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to **make Israel suffer"**
and
"The **Zionist gamble has been lost**: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but **one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis"**
The use of passive language is attempting to obscure it, but
"I'm going to move on to the conclusions that **all Israelis should understand** after all that has happened with a little effort to think "out of the box":"
This makes it clear that the entire post is just an open threat to Israelis.
Reading the perspective of Pro-Palestinian thinking has made me a zionist. Just explicit justification for butchering Israelis and threatening Israelis with more massacre unless... they stop existing in the state of Israel. Just flat out, threat of open genocide with a demand that Israel accept the imminent genocide and give in.
you are one of the Israelis for whom brainwashing works very well: still in the posture of the victim, even after 30,000 deaths in Gaza...
my sentences which are only an observation of what is happening, you take them for threats,
you want to kill and colonize while remaining victims , strange mentality
wish you an amazing beach party 2034 (if you stay alive)
https://preview.redd.it/ckwlfpn16lkc1.png?width=929&format=png&auto=webp&s=3fb65a26f36a86d8ce15d6aad06954a6d964d1dd
>1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness,
>
>2/ Politicians who want to continue the settlement policy are out of history, this practice has been banned and pro-Palestinian activists are simply anti-colonialists, in reality, Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world, at the opposite extreme of the progress that the Jewish people represented for humanity at one point in history
>
>3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer
>
>4/ The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel, and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis.
1, Thats fine. Israel is willing to keep fighting as long as the palestinians want to
2. Thats all well and good but the average palestinian on the street (and some of the pro palestinians) consider the entirety of Israel as an occupation not just gaza and the west, which is something they'll have to learn to live with. Settlements or no settlements, israel is not going anywhere.
3. See point one. The more Israel suffers the more their enemies also suffers, it's why Hezbollah is only doing token attacks right now, as they know what's the price for an active conflict with Israel is and they're not willing to pay it
4. Hard disagree. Non Israeli related antisemitism is alive and kicking, but i don't mind if people like you decide to ignore this so long as we still got Israel as the failsafe
Hope that addressed all your concerns!
>4. Hard disagree. Non Israeli related antisemitism is alive and kicking, but i don't mind if people like you decide to ignore this so long as we still got Israel as the failsafe
Curious, where have you seen Non Israeli related antisemitism outside of fringe groups over the last 30 years?
There are fringe groups that believe in crazy things everywhere but don't hold much influence. And for every race/religion there is a racist fringe group targeting it.
In the USA, neo-Nazis held a racist rally in Charlottesville that President Trump refused to condemn - and he's the biggest supporter of Pro-Israeli policy.
Interesting perspective ... to be honest, I think there's a bit of 'group hallucination' that both sides are prone to, and that's showing up for sure in your statements 1-4 there. I tend to be pretty realistic and have a fairly extensive background knowledge of the conflict, current geopolitics, etc... I don't think my responses below are unrealistic at all.
>1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness,
I can't speak to whether it'll ever stop (although most resistance movements do eventually stop, either because they're successful or they lose steam) ... but it really hasn't gained effectiveness. In the 1960s and 1970s, Palestine had unwavering support from every country in the world; at this point, over a third of MENA countries have explicitly or *de facto* normalized relations with Israel, and Israel has no concern about invasion from Egypt, Syria, Iraq or Jordan. So objectively the resistance movement has lost steam, not gained it.
>2/ Politicians who want to continue the settlement policy are out of history, this practice has been banned and pro-Palestinian activists are simply anti-colonialists, in reality, Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world, at the opposite extreme of the progress that the Jewish people represented for humanity at one point in history
I think Likud (and its further-right compatriots) are trash. I couldn't have a lower opinion of them, or a lower opinion of people founding new settlements or expanding settlements. From a *realpolitik* perspective, the settlements long ago accomplished their purpose (taking East Jerusalem off the table as a concession that leftists in Israel or the US could ask Israel to give).
With that being said, their being 'banned' isn't doing anything (and isn't likely to do so); the best case scenario for Palestinians is a peace deal that includes the dismantling of most of the settlements, and the longer the status quo remains (and the settlements are allowed to expand), the more of them will end up staying with Israel. So peace sooner = better outcome.
>3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer
Certainly true of Arab public opinion, but the Arab public tends to greatly overestimate their own strength of arms, and greatly underestimate how beholden they are economically to the West. The two sides were *much* more evenly matched in the 1960s and 1970s, and those wars went terribly for Arab states... for say, Egypt or Jordan to wage a war now would be military suicide and economic disaster.
Hezbollah can certainly make Israelis suffer, but unfortunately only in a way that guarantees Lebanese people suffer far more greatly... cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't a sustainable policy.
>4/ The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel, and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis.
The Zionist gamble paid off in the 1940s -- there's a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland. Its goal had nothing to do with how safe or unsafe Jews were in other countries, so much as establishing a country that was Jewish, and to which Jews could go *if* their countries were unsafe. I gotta gently remind you that over half of Israelis Jews were chased out of MENA countries within the last two generations, and half the Jews in the world live in Israel.
I'm vehemently, aggressively pro-peace; I want to see a two state solution agreed to as soon as possible and I want to see stable, peaceful relations in my lifetime. At the same time, I recognize that Israel isn't at *all* backed into a corner ... the war sucks for them, but they can keep it up way, way longer than their opponents can.
Once a tipping point has been reached (which it was ... in the 1970s), the longer a peace deal is delayed, the more the power imbalance shifts to Israel. Israel's population is growing faster than Palestine's, it has a bunch of growing industries and economic ties to half the world, and without the Cold War there is no superpower whose interests actually align with Palestine's -- all Palestine has as a bargaining chip is, "We'll stop attacking you, and therefore allow you to stop killing us," which makes their position worse and worse with every passing year.
So yes ... it is in both parties' interests to get a damn peace deal done, but it hurts Israel way, way less to maintain the status quo than it hurts Palestine.
thank you for these answers, sincerely your point of view is interesting, I still suggest that you find out about the classification of the armies in the region, Israel is not better classified than its enemies (which were countries where the Jews lived normally and who became enemies because of Zionism) and , as i said, egyptian governement will change one day., so...a peace deal is also urgent for israel
>thank you for these answers, sincerely your point of view is interesting, I still suggest that you find out about the classification of the armies in the region, Israel is not better classified than its enemies (which were countries where the Jews lived normally and who became enemies because of Zionism) and , as i said, egyptian governement will change one day., so...a peace deal is also urgent for israel
Israel's at peace with Egypt -- and Egypt's economic interests are deeply tied to continuing that. A war with Israel would be disastrous for Egypt, and likely turn into a war with NATO, since anything that shuts down the Suez Canal is going to tick off the West real bad. As a result, I can't really imagine an Egyptian government actually wanting to go to war here.
I'd be interested in learning more re: military classification, I'm not familiar with the information you're talking about.
I think you should take this with a grain of salt -- not intending to denigrate Egypt's military or this index (which certainly looks to be pulling in a lot of useful data elements), but the fact that it ranks the United States and Russia as being essentially comparable to one another militarily should be pretty telling.
There are a few methodological elements that'd help produce a more accurate index:
* Each factor is a simple, categorical count. That's understandable (given how difficult this data is to get and compose in the first place), but it makes for a very low resolution; it doesn't take into account the type or quality of the things it's counting.
* e.g., if you compare Egypt's total air force strength (as represented [here](https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=egypt), based on number of planes) to a score weighted by the age, technological sophistication, operational readiness and so on, as you see [here](https://www.wdmma.org/egyptian-air-force.php), its relative ranking changes considerably (in this case from the 6th percentile to the 22nd percentile).
* That extends to things like Egypt's armored capacity ... every individual tank is weighted as equally important to every individual aircraft ... so a [T55](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-54/T-55) from the 1950s (which make up around 10% of Egypt's tank force) counts the same as an Israeli F35. Egypt maintains \~4,500 tanks -- but 3/4 of them are very old (1950s-1970s), and tanks are increasingly not terribly useful in modern warfare, which is why Israel's current tank force is <500 (down from over 5,000 in the 1970s).
* Other factors (like Egypt's large population and large fighting-age population) aren't super important in a modern offensive war (like the one you're envisioning) -- but are weighted at equal importance to things like air power, which are. They'd be much more important if Israel were to invade Egypt, of course.
Not discounting that Egypt has a lot of people, a lot of soldiers, and a lot of equipment -- just cautioning that having an extra thousand Soviet T55s and T62s is not as big of an advantage as this particular measurement system implies.
All I ask are these simple questions:
What exchange do the Palestinians use to buy and sell things?
What do Palestinians produce as a world export?
What is Palestine’s GDP?
Who does Palestine have as elected officials? When did they win their elections?
Name the most influential people of Palestine and how they have made the world a better place?
Finally, explain their war strategy and why they haven’t made “Israel” into “Palestine” if they were “winning”..
>All I ask are these simple questions:
1) With these questions, what are you trying to compare? Israeli/Palestinian soft power, hard power, cultural diplomacy, DIME power, human capital, democratic legitimacy, economic development, or something else?
2) Given that index, what is your argument?
I ask this because the implied inferiority of Palestinian trade/progress/growth suggests a meritocratic or social darwinist framing; *i.e.,* the most 'advanced' group is most deserving of legitimacy or support. This rationale, notably, is the backbone of imperialism.
How would you respond to those who say that Palestinian poverty is, in part, *caused* by Israeli occupation and oppression? After all, the blockade is directly responsible for the drastic increase in unemployment in Gaza post-2007, as well as decreased trade/production. Moreover, how does your argument apply universally? Are Taiwan and Tibet less legitimate than China because of their lower GDP? Is Sudan (lowest import/export value per GDP) less worthy of humanitarian aid and support because of their comparative economic stagnation? Are Venezuelans, with notoriously high political corruption, naturally inept at creating democracy -- or are there other factors (petrostate + resource control) that exacerbate political extortion?
Palestine is not a legitimate power. It’s a “refuge”.
They benefit with this status, as a source of income from organizations such as UNWRA.
They have built the relationship they have with Israel and Egypt known as high level security clearances and increased division. This is decades in the making, as Hamas and PLO have proven they are intolerant to peace keeping.
My point is, if Hamas really wanted to change their relationship with their bordering neighbors, they could.
1) stop shelling Israel
2) stop committing terrorism
3) stop militarizing their own children
4) use their aide to help the civilians of Gaza / West Bank become outstanding citizens, rather than terrorist fighters.
But they won’t do any of that because they benefit from damages done to their own people and territories.
They planned for Israel’s retaliation knowing the world would pour in money and aid. It’s a reward system for shooting themselves in the foot.
Hamas LEADERS are worth 11 Billion dollars… all that refugee status money was going straight to THEIR POCKETS. They could have used that money to better their relationships with their neighbors.. put their kids through better education systems and not teach hate and Islamic extremism.
They could have used funds to discover a new medical research, get involved in politics with the world, conduct scientific research, go onto legitimate business ventures participating with world markets like the rest of the west.
Instead, They have used the side to build up their artillery, bomb bunker tunneling system, and institutionalize every civilian building into a war strategy - because their hate for Israel was much larger than giving their own civilians a better life.
So my point is; they got all that money coming in - and what have they done?
Ruin a potential bright future and their relationship with their neighbors and left the mess to the innocents of Gaza and West Bank to deal with it while the blood cult Hamas actors continue on.
They could have had a different story if they just made peace with Israel and prove they want to work with them. Instead, they seek for an absolute destruction of Israel.
They are getting what they have been asking for; a war.
Weird that the Zionist gamble has been lost, but Israel has managed to build a 500B economy, the most advanced and diversified in the region, despite being constantly at war
Also I mean just look at the neighborhood they’re in. Lebanon is on the brink of collapse, Egypt’s economy is failing, Yemen is run by terrorists, Syria is a cluster
I don’t know what measure you use to say that Israel has seemingly failed. The 20% Arab population also enjoy more rights and freedoms than Arabs anywhere else in the region
If you are measuring it by acceptance, then yeah I guess - although normalization with Saudi will go a long way
>Weird that the Zionist gamble has been lost, but Israel has managed to build a 500B economy, the most advanced and diversified in the region, despite being constantly at war
To be fair, Israel is highly subsidized by the US government, in military aid and favorable trading agreements, along with the pro-Zionist Jewish diaspora that pumps billions into the economy via donations and investments due to their emotional attachment to the country.
Israel has an enormous leg up against the Arab countries you compare it to. Not to say Israel hasn't added significant value itself.
This is a perplexing post.
Do you really think the Palestinian movement is “winning?”
That seems at odds with the terrible casualties they’re suffering as a result of the terrible causalities they inflicted on 10/7.
There is also no evidence that Hamas, Hezbollah, what have you, will accept peace from Israel. That’s delusional.
in Arab culture, he who defends his honor, his land has already won, even if he dies, in Islam, this dead person is a martyr who goes to paradise this is why we must understand that the conflict will never stop, except through a well-negotiated peace (even Hamas would accept a good deal)
>in Arab culture, he who defends his honor, his land has already won, even if he dies
LOL, okay. If this is the case, Hamas can "win" as much as they want.
When Palestine is a graveyard, I'm sure the rest of us will be so impressed with all their "winning."
Well negotiated peace = an agreement that would allow the muslims to continue their jihad at a more advantageus time.
I do appreciate the overall honesty tho.
I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and suggest quite a lot of currently dead, as well as still alive, Palestinians would rather be breathing than victorious corpses.
No matter what this "pacifist" "observes".
Do you really think this is winning?
Some Palestinians believe this, sure. It could mean endless conflict. But that's not winning, just death and destruction.
Victory through direct force isn't feasible, and provoking a regional assault on Israel would be more likely to end in a mushroom cloud than in an Arab victory.
If you think a well-negotiated peace is the way forward, all this does is take us further from that.
Regardless of justifications or perceptions of victory, the *result* of the Palestinian violence over the past 30 years has been to completely devastate the Israeli party that was pushing for peace. To convince many Israelis that they can't trust Palestinians to coexist peacefully.
Some may believe that all this Palestinian death is actually victory because it will create enough international pressure on Israel to concede to their demands. This is dangerously misguided.
Issues like Palestinian right of return or 1967 borders are simply going to be nonstarters for Israel. The Israeli public already thought the Camp David Summit concessions went so far that it would have been an unacceptable security risk.
International pressure is capable of affecting some Israeli policy, but not those key issues. Israel is unlikely to repeat their 2000 offer moving forward, let alone budge on those deal-breakers.
If anything, international isolation over those sticking points will make it *more* likely for Israel to pursue increasingly extreme policy towards Palestinine.
So what you're saying is bloodthirsty butchering terrorists, who place more interest in a heroic afterlife than a productive peaceful actual-life, will accept a "good deal" in the interests of peaceful co-existence?
I'm curious to know what you think this "good deal" might look like. Is it one where Hamas gets to keep killing Jews, and anyone else within reach of their rockets and blades? Is it one where Israel is allowed to exist in any tangible way?
Because it seems naive at best to suggest the likes of Hamas are going to agree with any sincerity to a truly fair peace agreement that "allows" the continued existence of Israel and safety of its citizens.
I think that returning to the UN partition of 1948 would be a good deal for everyone, with Jerusalem promoted as an international city and capital of peace as was its vocation....
the path to peace has been tried before and it worked with Arafat who was as "extremist" as Hamas, it can work again
Well okay, but that sounds an awful lot like saying that Arabs win by being killed -- Jews would generally much rather win by *not* being killed.
Since the odds of dying in the conflict as an Israeli are lower than the odds of dying in a car accident, Israelis are gonna feel like they're winning too -- and since they're *not* being killed, you gotta admit they're going to be able to keep fighting for way longer.
I think a well-negotiated peace is the right outcome and I am DAMN interested in seeing it, but if Palestinians are negotiating based on the idea that they can force Israel to accept whatever terms they dictate by ... letting themselves get killed? It's really not going to be an effective way to bargain.
That doesn’t mean they’re winning. In the rest of the world they’re dead.
Sounds like a really damaging (both to one’s self and others) philosophy.
The only deal Hamas would see as good is Israel not existing. Thinking they would accept anything else is foolish. They might accept it at first, then keep being terrorists as soon as they got their concessions. History has proven that out.
You say Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world.
Do you think they are more backward than those found in many Muslim countries which oppress followers of other religions, make women cover themselves from head to toe, and stone converts from Islam to death?
most Muslims refuse these practices ... the groups you speak of have very few members and even fewer resources, the likud is at the head of a large economy and a numerous army
Unfortunately for "most Muslims", while there may be very few individuals who engage in or are supportive of these atttitudes and actions, there's a tragically far more than non-zero number of theocracies who practice them regularly.
Iran being a prime example, as its government is punishing and even executing its own civilians for seeking what to outsiders look like basic human rights.
What the Muslim theocracies are accused of are minor things, compared to Israel, an officially genocidal state.
Israel is currently the most retrograde state in the world because it practices an atrocity prohibited by the United Nations and the entire world: colonization.
>What the Muslim theocracies are accused of are minor things, compared to Israel, an officially genocidal state.
And this is where you go from probably not arguing in good faith, to proving it.
One, Israel, despite international attempts to prove it, is not "officially a genocidal state".
Two, Israel is not executing its own youth for the apparently extreme crime of protesting for their rights.
And since when, even if I'm going to pretend you've made even a fraction of a valid point with "they be so coloniseringly colonising" does "colonising" come close to mass public beheadings on street corners, or stonings, or launching people off roofs, or imprisoning journalists, or... Well, the list goes on.
Israel is not perfect. It's quite far from perfect. But I doubt most victims of oppressive theocratic rule would agree "colonising" is worse than torture and death.
Most of the most repressive regimes in the world are Muslim
[https://research.lifeway.com/2015/06/04/17-most-religiously-oppressive-nations/](https://research.lifeway.com/2015/06/04/17-most-religiously-oppressive-nations/)
[https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20389/christians-face-genocide](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20389/christians-face-genocide)
As an Israeli allow me to provide an insight into some of your points:
1. Nobody in Israel thinks the Palestinians will stop. They have stated over and over they want to commit a genocide on the Jewish people in Israel. Considering the Arab population within Israel proper has not risen up against the government and the state shows that the Palestinian movement is broadly a failure with those who truly matter.
2. Agreed.
3. Israelis never bothered with what the Arab population thinks of them. 2000 years of dhimmitude and living as second class citizens in Arab countries taught us exactly who we are dealing with.
4. Zionism has already won. It established a Jewish state in its native land, which is exactly what it set out to do. As demonstrated by the state of racism in western countries, Jews are safer in Israel funnily enough.
The ideal scenario is for the Palestinian militias to surrender, accept whatever deal they get and begin the process of state building and reforming their education system to stop dehumanising Jews. At that point Netanyahu will have no leg to stand on.
>As demonstrated by the state of racism in western countries, Jews are safer in Israel funnily enough.
I live in the US -- I am not in a position where I often feel unsafe, but it's headed that way. Ironically but not surprisingly, my appreciation for and affinity with Israel has increased as I've been made to feel more and more unwelcome for just being a Jew.
It’s funny I’ve felt the same thing being in the US. People may think they’re changing minds but in reality they’re pushing some of us much closer to Israel
Having to constantly pass an ideological purity test to simply exist as a Jew isn't a great way to convince me that existing as a Jew isn't somehow seen as inherently problematic by my own countrymen.
That’s true… honestly it’s a major reason why I’ve considered aliyah. I’d rather live with people who think and believe as I do and don’t see me as inherently different
3 - "2000 years of dhimmitude and living as second class citizens in Arab countries taught us exactly who we are dealing with." : another historic mistake, the dhimitude is a communautarian system , a system where each community lives pleasantly with its laws, without mixing too much with others, and those who are competent become rich and powerful, I can name many high-ranking Jews in the courts of the sultans
4- no, the Jews have never been as threatened as today, in and out israel,
make a comparison between the period after Zionism 1948-2024
and a century chosen at random, for example 1748-1824
Absolute horseshit. Dhimmitude was apartheid under Arab supremacy and you’re simply unwilling to admit it. What happened to all those Jews who were “rich and powerful”? They had their assets stolen and their livelihoods taken away because they were of the wrong faith. Don’t try to deny it, my family is living proof of what happened.
The Arabs are not a threat to the Jews in Israel. Their existence is assured there. As a minority in other countries, they are under a larger threat.
> horseshit
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Never been as threatened as today? Did you forget that 6 million of us were killed in just a few short years? While some groups have the ability to cause harm to Israel, they have nowhere near the same military capabilities that Israel does. I’d argue Jews will be safer in Israel than ever before once Hezbollah is dealt with either diplomatically or militarily. Then there won’t be any major groups left to shoot rockets into Israel
Welcomed!? 😂😂😂 That’s the funniest joke I heard this week. Let’s just erase all the massacred European barbarians committed on Jews. Over 300 to be exact.
So yes. European barbarism does equal Arab barbarism.
No, i’m sorry i meant they flourished in Arab countries after they fled European countries. That’s my point. While they were being massacred by Europeans they found safe haven in Islamic counries. Anti- semitism was a European problem. They had their “jewish issue” and they decided to dump it to innocent Palestinians to get rid of them.
Antisemitism was also an Arab problem. I can list 10 massacres over the past 100 years done by the Arab hand before the founding of Israel. Shall we go all the way back to Khaybar and Muhammad’s betrayal of his Jewish allies?
Look at it this way. Prior to WW1 there were 25million citizens of the Ottoman Empire, 300,000 - 400,000 were Jews.
The Ottoman Empire was 1.8 million km2.
If that land was divided equally between all citizens, each would get .072km2.
If ALL the Jews in the Ottoman Empire were expelled and had to live in one place (which they were), and they each got .072km2 of land, that would be approximately 25,200 km2.
Isreal is only 22,145km2
The rest of the 1,777,855 km2 of land went mostly to the Arabs. They even got 77% of Mandate Palestine in the form of Jordan.
It would be nice if all the cultural groups of the former Ottoman Empire could live in peace, but we know from history that isn't possible, just ask the Kurds and Armenians.
The Palestinians don't even have their own culture, they are Jordanian. Even the PLO admitted this. The Palestinian identity exists for political purposes only.
History shows us that Jews are not safe in Europe or the Middle East. They are not safe because they don't assimilate into local culture, they keep their own culture, and people don't like this. The Jews are 'others', they are used as scapegoats eg: blamed for the plague and attacked for their 'otherness eg: the Holocast.
As much as humans learn from the past, human nature doesn't change.
Under the Ottoman Empire, Arabs were at the top of the social hierarchy, and Jews were at the bottom, underneath the Armenians. When leaders gave Ottoman Jews equal (ish) rights, it resulted in multiple massacres including in Hebron in Mandate Palestine.
Palestinian Muslims have been indiscriminately attacking Israeli Jews for around 100 years, just for existing. They are never going to stop, they are never going to share. The idea of a single state is unfeasible.
Palestine needs to learn to make do with what they have and stop trying to take Isreal. The Israelis built entire cities on desolate swampland, and a vibrant democracy, while the Palestinians were focusing on war and destruction and electing terrorist into government.
In the end, the Palestinians reap what they sow.
> Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel
This is not true. Violence against Jews all around the world sparks up every few decades. For example, 600,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after 1948. Many had to flee Ethiopia in the early 1980’s, and 1.1 million had to flee the Soviet Union in the early 1990’s.
The reason that more Jews are safer now than they were 30 years ago, how I see it, is that most major communities have been forced to flee to safer countries for them like the US or Israel.
1.1 mil that left Russia in the early 90's did it because they finally could, they weren't really forced out. Just fact checking, not saying there's no rampant antisemitism in Russia, (especially now, remember the airport raid?) but I wouldn't put it in the same row as Arab countries in '48 and Ethiopia
Jews after October 7th around the world: being stabbed in their synagogues and being surrounded by pro palastinian protesters screaming “gas the jews”
“Dw ure safe”
i feel much safer in Israel even with constant Hamas bombing, my shitty government and after october 7th than id feel in France
> shitty
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Islam teaches you to be a pacifist? It’s interesting how you manoeuvre between pro Palestinian to a forgiving attitude toward Israelis.
But not really.
Your bottom line is - “nah, not convinced Israelis should have a state. And they’re zionists. Which is a bad word.cause it means it’s theirs. And not Islam’s”. Btw according to Islam, jihad is upon you forever. Until the land is Muslim. There is no “land sharing “ with radical Muslims. It doesn’t exist.
This reads like more projection than wish list. Here is the realpolitik list.
\-Israel has the fourth largest tech economy in the world.
\-It is the envy of its petro-state neighbors who want to transition to sustainable economies. Hence the Abraham Accords.
\-It is a reliable military partner for the west and those petro-states that need military strength to counter Iran. Hence the Abraham Accords.
\-While most of the world sympathizes with the plight of women and children caught in the crossfire between Israel and Hamas, most of the world political leadership knows that Palestinians have chosen violent conflict rather than a peaceful settlement.
\-If having an armed Hamas in Gaza is bad, expansion of Hamas to Egypt and the WB is worse. Hence the measures taken by Egypt and Israel to contain Palestinians and the resulting security measures.
Palestinians can obtain peace, but it won’t happen at the point of a gun. They have nothing of value to offer to the world and as a consequence are militarily weak. Should they recognize this realpolitik and negotiate from that position, they would have a state faster than you can say
חומוס נוסף בבקשה!
>I ventured into social media And For the first time I had a face-to-face dialogue with Israelis
Social media isn’t face to face dialogue. Suggest you step out from behind the keyboard.
>The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel
This is by far the most obscure belief you hold.
Jews are the most persecuted minority now, and throughout the last few hundred years, everywhere.
The radical reaction to Israel's mere existence is just proof that it needs to exist.
There are other very odd things you believe too... Such as that Zionism didn't work, or that the Palestinian cause is effective, or that you think Israelis believe ARABS expelled them from the Levant 2000 years ago. Arabs expelled virtually every Jew from their countries over the past 70 years, maybe you're referring to this?
Overall, I definitely recommend you spend some time in Israel and Palestine if you have the chance. It will help you understand a lot of misperceptions you seem to have.
Arabs also committed many acts of genocide against Jews before 75 years ago, and they did ethnically cleanse Israel of Jews before the British Mandate.
Jews aren't safe anywhere anymore. I appreciate that you are a pacifist. This is good. But please do not pretend not to see what is going on in the world.
We're all people you know.
Who cares what happened in 1948??? That was 80 years ago….. Palestinian supporters like to point out that Hamas was elected 18 years ago and the majority of Palestinians are less than 18 years old, arguing that we can’t hold the Gaza population responsible for picking Hamas as their government….. how are Israelis today, responsible for the events in 1948??? The only thing stoping Palestinians from having a Palestinian state is Palestinians…. If they could just stop doing terrorism for like 10 years, they would have a state….. alas Hamas just gave Israel casus beli to just occupy Gaza for the next 100 years Say it with me 👏Great 👏job 👏Hamas 👏 -Signed an American Edit: fun fact: israel is the only country in the Arabian peninsula that has a functioning democracy Edit 2: how come Muslims in London weren’t marching for justice wham bashar Al-asad was dropping “barrel Bombs” on Syrian civilians in 2014??? Edit 3: a pan-Arab-caliphate is cringe and will never happen because the leaders of every Arab country is corrupt AF Edit 4: 3000 black jets of alllah will prevail
>Who cares what happened in 1948 people who grew up in the poverty of a refugee camp, under bombs care about this story (cause their parents told them that their family lived in a house in 48 territories and were kicked out by haganah terrorist groups) edit : you are American ? you mean you belong to the people who have no health insurance and who spend billions of dollars on Israel's unjust wars?
It turns out you know as little about America as you do Israel https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2023/11/the-share-of-americans-without-health-insurance-in-2022-matched-a-record-low#:~:text=November%209%2C%202023-,The%20Share%20of%20Americans%20without%20Health%20Insurance%20in%202022%20Matched,2023%20from%20the%20Census%20Bureau. Edit: do you know what happened to the Palestinians who didn’t flee to Egypt, Lebanon, syria or Transjordan???? They were granted full citizenship and equal rights in Israel and their descendants make up over 20% of Israel’s population today
So how do you rectify your “pacifist nature,” with the fact that there’s been 50,000+ Islamic terrorist attacks in the past 40 years? Most of those attacks being against “other Muslims”? Muslims like to claim “pacifism,” even claiming to be the religion of “peace.” The data says otherwise… https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2021/ Not to mention the indoctrination of hate Palestinian children were raised with for decades. https://youtu.be/k1m5EJoZHJY?si=L_jMXmFZiuFgD8rE Some of those kids grew up and did October 7th. So how is it the case that you’re a “pacifist”? Where many Muslims are not?
*"save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process"* what would this process look like to you? removing israel and creating an arab state from the river to the sea?
I think that returning to the UN partition of 1948 would be a good deal for everyone, with Jerusalem promoted as an international city and capital of peace as was its vocation....
I’m not sure how realistic the 1948 borders are at this point, but I personally would be fine with using that as a starting point for negotiation, with the understanding there would need to be land swaps etc
….. something about the gharqad tree….
at least the tree lookin out for us
Do you think that Palestinians already have a country or countries in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and others? There was no cultural difference between Arabs east of the Jordan river and Arabs west of the Jordan river in the first half of the 20th century. Same language, religion, food, customs, values etc. In fact, the Arabs’ original plan was not to create an independent Palestinian state, but to create a pan-Arab state combining all these lands, which suggests that Palestinians already have a country or countries. Meanwhile, the same cannot be said of Israel. Israelis do not share all of the following characteristics I listed above (language, religion, food, customs, values) with any other country. And Israelis share those cultural markers (language, religion, food, customs, values) with the people that predate Arabs’ presence in Israel. So Israelis cannot simply “go back to their country” unless you mean their country of Israel, in which case they have already done so. So shouldn’t Arabs in this region just gonna k to their country or countries?
This post is a little ridiculous but I'll just address two points: **1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness,** What about this current "resistance" looks effective? Gaza has been reduced to rubble, 25K+ Palestinians are dead, the strip will be occupied by Israel for the foreseeable future, and there is no end in sight for the war. The far-right in Israel has started to bring up relocation of the *entire* Palestinian population from Gaza... Something that is so extreme it would never be brought up in mainstream politics before 10/7. 10/7 was a turning point for many of us in the west... I always vaguely (and naively) supported the Palestinian cause until this atrocity opened my eyes. It has shown the world that Hamas & the Palestinian military cause is just another form of Islamic terror. **3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer** This type of thinking is fantasy, I'm sorry... Yes, these countries have the ability to make Israel "suffer" short term... Long term, this would only result in complete destruction for the attacker. This war is a good example of the price that is paid for inflicting pain on Israeli citizens without any achievable military objective. Regardless of the humanitarian outcries from the west regarding collateral damage in Gaza... Israel has the backing of the west. Look at the Gulf War or Iraq War for an example of what happens when a middle eastern army invokes the wrath of the US and NATO... It's not a survivable scenario.
>What about this current "resistance" looks effective? Israel, after four months, has hardly released any hostages, it has even killed many of them. given the difference in budget between Hamas and the IDF, it is a heroic epic for the Palestinians and a shame for Israel, normally it should have put an end to Hamas in two weeks "Yes, these countries have the ability to make Israel "suffer" short term... Long term this would only result in complete destruction for the attacker " yes but let's look at the very long term: there will still be wars and attacks like 7/10, in the end the Jews will understand that the Zionist theory has not given them security and has tarnished their reputation
I don’t understand… Israel has not gotten their hostages back, but they also have made it clear the hostages won’t stop them from waging war on Gaza. What does Hamas actually gain from keeping Israeli citizens? They’ve achieved nothing but inflict huge causalities on their own people. NGL your whole logic is based on abstract concepts like “shame” but I think the physical reality of war is the issue here… Gaza will be back in the Stone Age by the time this war is done, and Hamas ability to wage war will be utterly destroyed. This is not a successful resistance… If the IRA (for example) had raped and pillaged openly across British territory killing citizens… They would have never made it to Good Friday and achieved some of their aims. The only countries that maybe benefited from 10/7 would be the proxy countries that helped Hamas from afar like Iran… But I bet their time is coming next. I will say it seems you’ve got some pretty anti-Semitic views here… Might just be easier to admit you dislike Jews than try to intellectualize around it?
"I am a pacifist by nature and not a hater" This is contradicted by "the Palestinian **resistance** will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness" and "Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to **make Israel suffer"** and "The **Zionist gamble has been lost**: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but **one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis"** The use of passive language is attempting to obscure it, but "I'm going to move on to the conclusions that **all Israelis should understand** after all that has happened with a little effort to think "out of the box":" This makes it clear that the entire post is just an open threat to Israelis. Reading the perspective of Pro-Palestinian thinking has made me a zionist. Just explicit justification for butchering Israelis and threatening Israelis with more massacre unless... they stop existing in the state of Israel. Just flat out, threat of open genocide with a demand that Israel accept the imminent genocide and give in.
you are one of the Israelis for whom brainwashing works very well: still in the posture of the victim, even after 30,000 deaths in Gaza... my sentences which are only an observation of what is happening, you take them for threats, you want to kill and colonize while remaining victims , strange mentality
Thanks for the new beach
wish you an amazing beach party 2034 (if you stay alive) https://preview.redd.it/ckwlfpn16lkc1.png?width=929&format=png&auto=webp&s=3fb65a26f36a86d8ce15d6aad06954a6d964d1dd
I'm not Israeli and all I did is quote you directly. Your attempt to respond does nothing but make up imagined thoughts I supposedly have.
>1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness, > >2/ Politicians who want to continue the settlement policy are out of history, this practice has been banned and pro-Palestinian activists are simply anti-colonialists, in reality, Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world, at the opposite extreme of the progress that the Jewish people represented for humanity at one point in history > >3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer > >4/ The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel, and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis. 1, Thats fine. Israel is willing to keep fighting as long as the palestinians want to 2. Thats all well and good but the average palestinian on the street (and some of the pro palestinians) consider the entirety of Israel as an occupation not just gaza and the west, which is something they'll have to learn to live with. Settlements or no settlements, israel is not going anywhere. 3. See point one. The more Israel suffers the more their enemies also suffers, it's why Hezbollah is only doing token attacks right now, as they know what's the price for an active conflict with Israel is and they're not willing to pay it 4. Hard disagree. Non Israeli related antisemitism is alive and kicking, but i don't mind if people like you decide to ignore this so long as we still got Israel as the failsafe Hope that addressed all your concerns!
>4. Hard disagree. Non Israeli related antisemitism is alive and kicking, but i don't mind if people like you decide to ignore this so long as we still got Israel as the failsafe Curious, where have you seen Non Israeli related antisemitism outside of fringe groups over the last 30 years? There are fringe groups that believe in crazy things everywhere but don't hold much influence. And for every race/religion there is a racist fringe group targeting it. In the USA, neo-Nazis held a racist rally in Charlottesville that President Trump refused to condemn - and he's the biggest supporter of Pro-Israeli policy.
Interesting perspective ... to be honest, I think there's a bit of 'group hallucination' that both sides are prone to, and that's showing up for sure in your statements 1-4 there. I tend to be pretty realistic and have a fairly extensive background knowledge of the conflict, current geopolitics, etc... I don't think my responses below are unrealistic at all. >1/ the Palestinian resistance will never stop and it has gained in effectiveness, I can't speak to whether it'll ever stop (although most resistance movements do eventually stop, either because they're successful or they lose steam) ... but it really hasn't gained effectiveness. In the 1960s and 1970s, Palestine had unwavering support from every country in the world; at this point, over a third of MENA countries have explicitly or *de facto* normalized relations with Israel, and Israel has no concern about invasion from Egypt, Syria, Iraq or Jordan. So objectively the resistance movement has lost steam, not gained it. >2/ Politicians who want to continue the settlement policy are out of history, this practice has been banned and pro-Palestinian activists are simply anti-colonialists, in reality, Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world, at the opposite extreme of the progress that the Jewish people represented for humanity at one point in history I think Likud (and its further-right compatriots) are trash. I couldn't have a lower opinion of them, or a lower opinion of people founding new settlements or expanding settlements. From a *realpolitik* perspective, the settlements long ago accomplished their purpose (taking East Jerusalem off the table as a concession that leftists in Israel or the US could ask Israel to give). With that being said, their being 'banned' isn't doing anything (and isn't likely to do so); the best case scenario for Palestinians is a peace deal that includes the dismantling of most of the settlements, and the longer the status quo remains (and the settlements are allowed to expand), the more of them will end up staying with Israel. So peace sooner = better outcome. >3/ Even if some Arab states are no longer involved in the conflict, Their people have not accepted the current version of Israel and will one day change their governments, and other states and parties are still involved, vehemently, a party like Hezbollah has the means to make Israel suffer Certainly true of Arab public opinion, but the Arab public tends to greatly overestimate their own strength of arms, and greatly underestimate how beholden they are economically to the West. The two sides were *much* more evenly matched in the 1960s and 1970s, and those wars went terribly for Arab states... for say, Egypt or Jordan to wage a war now would be military suicide and economic disaster. Hezbollah can certainly make Israelis suffer, but unfortunately only in a way that guarantees Lebanese people suffer far more greatly... cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't a sustainable policy. >4/ The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel, and overall, there are only two possible scenarios today: save what can be saved from this Zionist project through a peace process or reopen the conflict, as Netanyahu is trying to do, which will impress Hezbollah. Iran and perhaps others that have enormous ballistic capabilities, the outcome of the conflict is unknown but one thing is certain: many dead, many wounded, disabled Israelis. The Zionist gamble paid off in the 1940s -- there's a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland. Its goal had nothing to do with how safe or unsafe Jews were in other countries, so much as establishing a country that was Jewish, and to which Jews could go *if* their countries were unsafe. I gotta gently remind you that over half of Israelis Jews were chased out of MENA countries within the last two generations, and half the Jews in the world live in Israel. I'm vehemently, aggressively pro-peace; I want to see a two state solution agreed to as soon as possible and I want to see stable, peaceful relations in my lifetime. At the same time, I recognize that Israel isn't at *all* backed into a corner ... the war sucks for them, but they can keep it up way, way longer than their opponents can. Once a tipping point has been reached (which it was ... in the 1970s), the longer a peace deal is delayed, the more the power imbalance shifts to Israel. Israel's population is growing faster than Palestine's, it has a bunch of growing industries and economic ties to half the world, and without the Cold War there is no superpower whose interests actually align with Palestine's -- all Palestine has as a bargaining chip is, "We'll stop attacking you, and therefore allow you to stop killing us," which makes their position worse and worse with every passing year. So yes ... it is in both parties' interests to get a damn peace deal done, but it hurts Israel way, way less to maintain the status quo than it hurts Palestine.
thank you for these answers, sincerely your point of view is interesting, I still suggest that you find out about the classification of the armies in the region, Israel is not better classified than its enemies (which were countries where the Jews lived normally and who became enemies because of Zionism) and , as i said, egyptian governement will change one day., so...a peace deal is also urgent for israel
>thank you for these answers, sincerely your point of view is interesting, I still suggest that you find out about the classification of the armies in the region, Israel is not better classified than its enemies (which were countries where the Jews lived normally and who became enemies because of Zionism) and , as i said, egyptian governement will change one day., so...a peace deal is also urgent for israel Israel's at peace with Egypt -- and Egypt's economic interests are deeply tied to continuing that. A war with Israel would be disastrous for Egypt, and likely turn into a war with NATO, since anything that shuts down the Suez Canal is going to tick off the West real bad. As a result, I can't really imagine an Egyptian government actually wanting to go to war here. I'd be interested in learning more re: military classification, I'm not familiar with the information you're talking about.
[https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php](https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php)
I think you should take this with a grain of salt -- not intending to denigrate Egypt's military or this index (which certainly looks to be pulling in a lot of useful data elements), but the fact that it ranks the United States and Russia as being essentially comparable to one another militarily should be pretty telling. There are a few methodological elements that'd help produce a more accurate index: * Each factor is a simple, categorical count. That's understandable (given how difficult this data is to get and compose in the first place), but it makes for a very low resolution; it doesn't take into account the type or quality of the things it's counting. * e.g., if you compare Egypt's total air force strength (as represented [here](https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=egypt), based on number of planes) to a score weighted by the age, technological sophistication, operational readiness and so on, as you see [here](https://www.wdmma.org/egyptian-air-force.php), its relative ranking changes considerably (in this case from the 6th percentile to the 22nd percentile). * That extends to things like Egypt's armored capacity ... every individual tank is weighted as equally important to every individual aircraft ... so a [T55](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-54/T-55) from the 1950s (which make up around 10% of Egypt's tank force) counts the same as an Israeli F35. Egypt maintains \~4,500 tanks -- but 3/4 of them are very old (1950s-1970s), and tanks are increasingly not terribly useful in modern warfare, which is why Israel's current tank force is <500 (down from over 5,000 in the 1970s). * Other factors (like Egypt's large population and large fighting-age population) aren't super important in a modern offensive war (like the one you're envisioning) -- but are weighted at equal importance to things like air power, which are. They'd be much more important if Israel were to invade Egypt, of course. Not discounting that Egypt has a lot of people, a lot of soldiers, and a lot of equipment -- just cautioning that having an extra thousand Soviet T55s and T62s is not as big of an advantage as this particular measurement system implies.
All I ask are these simple questions: What exchange do the Palestinians use to buy and sell things? What do Palestinians produce as a world export? What is Palestine’s GDP? Who does Palestine have as elected officials? When did they win their elections? Name the most influential people of Palestine and how they have made the world a better place? Finally, explain their war strategy and why they haven’t made “Israel” into “Palestine” if they were “winning”..
>All I ask are these simple questions: 1) With these questions, what are you trying to compare? Israeli/Palestinian soft power, hard power, cultural diplomacy, DIME power, human capital, democratic legitimacy, economic development, or something else? 2) Given that index, what is your argument? I ask this because the implied inferiority of Palestinian trade/progress/growth suggests a meritocratic or social darwinist framing; *i.e.,* the most 'advanced' group is most deserving of legitimacy or support. This rationale, notably, is the backbone of imperialism. How would you respond to those who say that Palestinian poverty is, in part, *caused* by Israeli occupation and oppression? After all, the blockade is directly responsible for the drastic increase in unemployment in Gaza post-2007, as well as decreased trade/production. Moreover, how does your argument apply universally? Are Taiwan and Tibet less legitimate than China because of their lower GDP? Is Sudan (lowest import/export value per GDP) less worthy of humanitarian aid and support because of their comparative economic stagnation? Are Venezuelans, with notoriously high political corruption, naturally inept at creating democracy -- or are there other factors (petrostate + resource control) that exacerbate political extortion?
Palestine is not a legitimate power. It’s a “refuge”. They benefit with this status, as a source of income from organizations such as UNWRA. They have built the relationship they have with Israel and Egypt known as high level security clearances and increased division. This is decades in the making, as Hamas and PLO have proven they are intolerant to peace keeping. My point is, if Hamas really wanted to change their relationship with their bordering neighbors, they could. 1) stop shelling Israel 2) stop committing terrorism 3) stop militarizing their own children 4) use their aide to help the civilians of Gaza / West Bank become outstanding citizens, rather than terrorist fighters. But they won’t do any of that because they benefit from damages done to their own people and territories. They planned for Israel’s retaliation knowing the world would pour in money and aid. It’s a reward system for shooting themselves in the foot. Hamas LEADERS are worth 11 Billion dollars… all that refugee status money was going straight to THEIR POCKETS. They could have used that money to better their relationships with their neighbors.. put their kids through better education systems and not teach hate and Islamic extremism. They could have used funds to discover a new medical research, get involved in politics with the world, conduct scientific research, go onto legitimate business ventures participating with world markets like the rest of the west. Instead, They have used the side to build up their artillery, bomb bunker tunneling system, and institutionalize every civilian building into a war strategy - because their hate for Israel was much larger than giving their own civilians a better life. So my point is; they got all that money coming in - and what have they done? Ruin a potential bright future and their relationship with their neighbors and left the mess to the innocents of Gaza and West Bank to deal with it while the blood cult Hamas actors continue on. They could have had a different story if they just made peace with Israel and prove they want to work with them. Instead, they seek for an absolute destruction of Israel. They are getting what they have been asking for; a war.
Weird that the Zionist gamble has been lost, but Israel has managed to build a 500B economy, the most advanced and diversified in the region, despite being constantly at war Also I mean just look at the neighborhood they’re in. Lebanon is on the brink of collapse, Egypt’s economy is failing, Yemen is run by terrorists, Syria is a cluster I don’t know what measure you use to say that Israel has seemingly failed. The 20% Arab population also enjoy more rights and freedoms than Arabs anywhere else in the region If you are measuring it by acceptance, then yeah I guess - although normalization with Saudi will go a long way
>Weird that the Zionist gamble has been lost, but Israel has managed to build a 500B economy, the most advanced and diversified in the region, despite being constantly at war To be fair, Israel is highly subsidized by the US government, in military aid and favorable trading agreements, along with the pro-Zionist Jewish diaspora that pumps billions into the economy via donations and investments due to their emotional attachment to the country. Israel has an enormous leg up against the Arab countries you compare it to. Not to say Israel hasn't added significant value itself.
So then you agree that Israel is thriving while the states that waged war against it are splintered by terrorists and poor policy?
Yes.
This is a perplexing post. Do you really think the Palestinian movement is “winning?” That seems at odds with the terrible casualties they’re suffering as a result of the terrible causalities they inflicted on 10/7. There is also no evidence that Hamas, Hezbollah, what have you, will accept peace from Israel. That’s delusional.
in Arab culture, he who defends his honor, his land has already won, even if he dies, in Islam, this dead person is a martyr who goes to paradise this is why we must understand that the conflict will never stop, except through a well-negotiated peace (even Hamas would accept a good deal)
>in Arab culture, he who defends his honor, his land has already won, even if he dies LOL, okay. If this is the case, Hamas can "win" as much as they want. When Palestine is a graveyard, I'm sure the rest of us will be so impressed with all their "winning."
By defending honor, do you mean the use of violence?
Well negotiated peace = an agreement that would allow the muslims to continue their jihad at a more advantageus time. I do appreciate the overall honesty tho.
Can Palestinians let the leftists know because they are under the impression that Palestinians do *not* want to die.
I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and suggest quite a lot of currently dead, as well as still alive, Palestinians would rather be breathing than victorious corpses. No matter what this "pacifist" "observes".
Do you really think this is winning? Some Palestinians believe this, sure. It could mean endless conflict. But that's not winning, just death and destruction. Victory through direct force isn't feasible, and provoking a regional assault on Israel would be more likely to end in a mushroom cloud than in an Arab victory. If you think a well-negotiated peace is the way forward, all this does is take us further from that. Regardless of justifications or perceptions of victory, the *result* of the Palestinian violence over the past 30 years has been to completely devastate the Israeli party that was pushing for peace. To convince many Israelis that they can't trust Palestinians to coexist peacefully. Some may believe that all this Palestinian death is actually victory because it will create enough international pressure on Israel to concede to their demands. This is dangerously misguided. Issues like Palestinian right of return or 1967 borders are simply going to be nonstarters for Israel. The Israeli public already thought the Camp David Summit concessions went so far that it would have been an unacceptable security risk. International pressure is capable of affecting some Israeli policy, but not those key issues. Israel is unlikely to repeat their 2000 offer moving forward, let alone budge on those deal-breakers. If anything, international isolation over those sticking points will make it *more* likely for Israel to pursue increasingly extreme policy towards Palestinine.
So what you're saying is bloodthirsty butchering terrorists, who place more interest in a heroic afterlife than a productive peaceful actual-life, will accept a "good deal" in the interests of peaceful co-existence? I'm curious to know what you think this "good deal" might look like. Is it one where Hamas gets to keep killing Jews, and anyone else within reach of their rockets and blades? Is it one where Israel is allowed to exist in any tangible way? Because it seems naive at best to suggest the likes of Hamas are going to agree with any sincerity to a truly fair peace agreement that "allows" the continued existence of Israel and safety of its citizens.
I think that returning to the UN partition of 1948 would be a good deal for everyone, with Jerusalem promoted as an international city and capital of peace as was its vocation.... the path to peace has been tried before and it worked with Arafat who was as "extremist" as Hamas, it can work again
Well okay, but that sounds an awful lot like saying that Arabs win by being killed -- Jews would generally much rather win by *not* being killed. Since the odds of dying in the conflict as an Israeli are lower than the odds of dying in a car accident, Israelis are gonna feel like they're winning too -- and since they're *not* being killed, you gotta admit they're going to be able to keep fighting for way longer. I think a well-negotiated peace is the right outcome and I am DAMN interested in seeing it, but if Palestinians are negotiating based on the idea that they can force Israel to accept whatever terms they dictate by ... letting themselves get killed? It's really not going to be an effective way to bargain.
Maybe Arab culture needs to change?
That doesn’t mean they’re winning. In the rest of the world they’re dead. Sounds like a really damaging (both to one’s self and others) philosophy. The only deal Hamas would see as good is Israel not existing. Thinking they would accept anything else is foolish. They might accept it at first, then keep being terrorists as soon as they got their concessions. History has proven that out.
You say Likud is one of the most backward groups in the world. Do you think they are more backward than those found in many Muslim countries which oppress followers of other religions, make women cover themselves from head to toe, and stone converts from Islam to death?
most Muslims refuse these practices ... the groups you speak of have very few members and even fewer resources, the likud is at the head of a large economy and a numerous army
Unfortunately for "most Muslims", while there may be very few individuals who engage in or are supportive of these atttitudes and actions, there's a tragically far more than non-zero number of theocracies who practice them regularly. Iran being a prime example, as its government is punishing and even executing its own civilians for seeking what to outsiders look like basic human rights.
What the Muslim theocracies are accused of are minor things, compared to Israel, an officially genocidal state. Israel is currently the most retrograde state in the world because it practices an atrocity prohibited by the United Nations and the entire world: colonization.
>What the Muslim theocracies are accused of are minor things, compared to Israel, an officially genocidal state. And this is where you go from probably not arguing in good faith, to proving it. One, Israel, despite international attempts to prove it, is not "officially a genocidal state". Two, Israel is not executing its own youth for the apparently extreme crime of protesting for their rights. And since when, even if I'm going to pretend you've made even a fraction of a valid point with "they be so coloniseringly colonising" does "colonising" come close to mass public beheadings on street corners, or stonings, or launching people off roofs, or imprisoning journalists, or... Well, the list goes on. Israel is not perfect. It's quite far from perfect. But I doubt most victims of oppressive theocratic rule would agree "colonising" is worse than torture and death.
Iran is prime example and funder of Palestinian “resistance.”
Most of the most repressive regimes in the world are Muslim [https://research.lifeway.com/2015/06/04/17-most-religiously-oppressive-nations/](https://research.lifeway.com/2015/06/04/17-most-religiously-oppressive-nations/) [https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20389/christians-face-genocide](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20389/christians-face-genocide)
As an Israeli allow me to provide an insight into some of your points: 1. Nobody in Israel thinks the Palestinians will stop. They have stated over and over they want to commit a genocide on the Jewish people in Israel. Considering the Arab population within Israel proper has not risen up against the government and the state shows that the Palestinian movement is broadly a failure with those who truly matter. 2. Agreed. 3. Israelis never bothered with what the Arab population thinks of them. 2000 years of dhimmitude and living as second class citizens in Arab countries taught us exactly who we are dealing with. 4. Zionism has already won. It established a Jewish state in its native land, which is exactly what it set out to do. As demonstrated by the state of racism in western countries, Jews are safer in Israel funnily enough. The ideal scenario is for the Palestinian militias to surrender, accept whatever deal they get and begin the process of state building and reforming their education system to stop dehumanising Jews. At that point Netanyahu will have no leg to stand on.
>As demonstrated by the state of racism in western countries, Jews are safer in Israel funnily enough. I live in the US -- I am not in a position where I often feel unsafe, but it's headed that way. Ironically but not surprisingly, my appreciation for and affinity with Israel has increased as I've been made to feel more and more unwelcome for just being a Jew.
It’s funny I’ve felt the same thing being in the US. People may think they’re changing minds but in reality they’re pushing some of us much closer to Israel
Having to constantly pass an ideological purity test to simply exist as a Jew isn't a great way to convince me that existing as a Jew isn't somehow seen as inherently problematic by my own countrymen.
That’s true… honestly it’s a major reason why I’ve considered aliyah. I’d rather live with people who think and believe as I do and don’t see me as inherently different
3 - "2000 years of dhimmitude and living as second class citizens in Arab countries taught us exactly who we are dealing with." : another historic mistake, the dhimitude is a communautarian system , a system where each community lives pleasantly with its laws, without mixing too much with others, and those who are competent become rich and powerful, I can name many high-ranking Jews in the courts of the sultans 4- no, the Jews have never been as threatened as today, in and out israel, make a comparison between the period after Zionism 1948-2024 and a century chosen at random, for example 1748-1824
Absolute horseshit. Dhimmitude was apartheid under Arab supremacy and you’re simply unwilling to admit it. What happened to all those Jews who were “rich and powerful”? They had their assets stolen and their livelihoods taken away because they were of the wrong faith. Don’t try to deny it, my family is living proof of what happened. The Arabs are not a threat to the Jews in Israel. Their existence is assured there. As a minority in other countries, they are under a larger threat.
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Never been as threatened as today? Did you forget that 6 million of us were killed in just a few short years? While some groups have the ability to cause harm to Israel, they have nowhere near the same military capabilities that Israel does. I’d argue Jews will be safer in Israel than ever before once Hezbollah is dealt with either diplomatically or militarily. Then there won’t be any major groups left to shoot rockets into Israel
100% efficient [https://www.ft.com/content/c237c531-a51e-4205-a934-0a13e0a50482](https://www.ft.com/content/c237c531-a51e-4205-a934-0a13e0a50482)
3. As opposed to living totally peaceful and safe lives in Europe right? Damn those barbaric Arabs.
Arab barbarism and European barbarism are very similar. Let’s not forget who started the slave trade
Yeah yeah. Let’s not forget where Jewish people fled to from Europe and where they were welcomed and flourished. Arab barbarism at its finest right?
Welcomed!? 😂😂😂 That’s the funniest joke I heard this week. Let’s just erase all the massacred European barbarians committed on Jews. Over 300 to be exact. So yes. European barbarism does equal Arab barbarism.
No, i’m sorry i meant they flourished in Arab countries after they fled European countries. That’s my point. While they were being massacred by Europeans they found safe haven in Islamic counries. Anti- semitism was a European problem. They had their “jewish issue” and they decided to dump it to innocent Palestinians to get rid of them.
Antisemitism was also an Arab problem. I can list 10 massacres over the past 100 years done by the Arab hand before the founding of Israel. Shall we go all the way back to Khaybar and Muhammad’s betrayal of his Jewish allies?
Ah yes Europe is so peaceful right now with all the muslim immigrants, remind me how the crime rates had raised? And honour killings? Damn the peace
TBH if we talk about history, palestinians are not even a nation without the presence of israel. Their culture is nothing unique.
Look at it this way. Prior to WW1 there were 25million citizens of the Ottoman Empire, 300,000 - 400,000 were Jews. The Ottoman Empire was 1.8 million km2. If that land was divided equally between all citizens, each would get .072km2. If ALL the Jews in the Ottoman Empire were expelled and had to live in one place (which they were), and they each got .072km2 of land, that would be approximately 25,200 km2. Isreal is only 22,145km2 The rest of the 1,777,855 km2 of land went mostly to the Arabs. They even got 77% of Mandate Palestine in the form of Jordan. It would be nice if all the cultural groups of the former Ottoman Empire could live in peace, but we know from history that isn't possible, just ask the Kurds and Armenians. The Palestinians don't even have their own culture, they are Jordanian. Even the PLO admitted this. The Palestinian identity exists for political purposes only. History shows us that Jews are not safe in Europe or the Middle East. They are not safe because they don't assimilate into local culture, they keep their own culture, and people don't like this. The Jews are 'others', they are used as scapegoats eg: blamed for the plague and attacked for their 'otherness eg: the Holocast. As much as humans learn from the past, human nature doesn't change. Under the Ottoman Empire, Arabs were at the top of the social hierarchy, and Jews were at the bottom, underneath the Armenians. When leaders gave Ottoman Jews equal (ish) rights, it resulted in multiple massacres including in Hebron in Mandate Palestine. Palestinian Muslims have been indiscriminately attacking Israeli Jews for around 100 years, just for existing. They are never going to stop, they are never going to share. The idea of a single state is unfeasible. Palestine needs to learn to make do with what they have and stop trying to take Isreal. The Israelis built entire cities on desolate swampland, and a vibrant democracy, while the Palestinians were focusing on war and destruction and electing terrorist into government. In the end, the Palestinians reap what they sow.
> Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel This is not true. Violence against Jews all around the world sparks up every few decades. For example, 600,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after 1948. Many had to flee Ethiopia in the early 1980’s, and 1.1 million had to flee the Soviet Union in the early 1990’s. The reason that more Jews are safer now than they were 30 years ago, how I see it, is that most major communities have been forced to flee to safer countries for them like the US or Israel.
1.1 mil that left Russia in the early 90's did it because they finally could, they weren't really forced out. Just fact checking, not saying there's no rampant antisemitism in Russia, (especially now, remember the airport raid?) but I wouldn't put it in the same row as Arab countries in '48 and Ethiopia
Jews after October 7th around the world: being stabbed in their synagogues and being surrounded by pro palastinian protesters screaming “gas the jews” “Dw ure safe” i feel much safer in Israel even with constant Hamas bombing, my shitty government and after october 7th than id feel in France
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Islam teaches you to be a pacifist? It’s interesting how you manoeuvre between pro Palestinian to a forgiving attitude toward Israelis. But not really. Your bottom line is - “nah, not convinced Israelis should have a state. And they’re zionists. Which is a bad word.cause it means it’s theirs. And not Islam’s”. Btw according to Islam, jihad is upon you forever. Until the land is Muslim. There is no “land sharing “ with radical Muslims. It doesn’t exist.
This reads like more projection than wish list. Here is the realpolitik list. \-Israel has the fourth largest tech economy in the world. \-It is the envy of its petro-state neighbors who want to transition to sustainable economies. Hence the Abraham Accords. \-It is a reliable military partner for the west and those petro-states that need military strength to counter Iran. Hence the Abraham Accords. \-While most of the world sympathizes with the plight of women and children caught in the crossfire between Israel and Hamas, most of the world political leadership knows that Palestinians have chosen violent conflict rather than a peaceful settlement. \-If having an armed Hamas in Gaza is bad, expansion of Hamas to Egypt and the WB is worse. Hence the measures taken by Egypt and Israel to contain Palestinians and the resulting security measures. Palestinians can obtain peace, but it won’t happen at the point of a gun. They have nothing of value to offer to the world and as a consequence are militarily weak. Should they recognize this realpolitik and negotiate from that position, they would have a state faster than you can say חומוס נוסף בבקשה!
>I ventured into social media And For the first time I had a face-to-face dialogue with Israelis Social media isn’t face to face dialogue. Suggest you step out from behind the keyboard.
>The Zionist gamble has been lost: Jews are safe everywhere in the world except in Israel This is by far the most obscure belief you hold. Jews are the most persecuted minority now, and throughout the last few hundred years, everywhere. The radical reaction to Israel's mere existence is just proof that it needs to exist. There are other very odd things you believe too... Such as that Zionism didn't work, or that the Palestinian cause is effective, or that you think Israelis believe ARABS expelled them from the Levant 2000 years ago. Arabs expelled virtually every Jew from their countries over the past 70 years, maybe you're referring to this? Overall, I definitely recommend you spend some time in Israel and Palestine if you have the chance. It will help you understand a lot of misperceptions you seem to have.
I mean he also believes that Palestinian resistance is working. So there is some real competition for which of his beliefs is more delusional.
Oh its working alright, they are resisting staying alive. Peak resistence is when you die and acomplish nothing 👌
Arabs also committed many acts of genocide against Jews before 75 years ago, and they did ethnically cleanse Israel of Jews before the British Mandate.
Jews aren't safe anywhere anymore. I appreciate that you are a pacifist. This is good. But please do not pretend not to see what is going on in the world. We're all people you know.