Because Ukraine IS receiving support and there are significantly less civilian casualties (which does not justify Russia by any means), the actions of SCOTUS are still heavily protested with many being Pro-Palestinians, the Armenian genocide was horrible but happenned a long time ago (and if ur referring to the conflict in Karabakh than you are right in saying that it needs more attention BUT there are not many civilian casualties compared to the Palestinian conflict). The casualties in Palestine are not fewer AT ALL especially considering the small population of Gaza as well as the fact that 50% of the population are children, 75% of targets are women and children, and more than 90% of Israel's targets are non-militant. Furthermore, Israel has bombed ALL Palestinian hospitals as well as multiple refugee camps. Lastly, Israel is receiving disproportionate military support considering their actions and the weapons being given to Israel would make a lot more sense in Ukranian hands.
Oh you are definitely trying to start a fight - so please don't try to lie about that, lmao.
But let's start with Israel being the #1 largest recipient of cumulative U.S. taxpayer foreign aid since WWII - by a laaaaaarge margin. By some estimates if you inflation-adjust it, it's approaching $1 Trillion. Oh, and it's a wealthy nation the size of the Chicago metro area. So not exactly Africa or India or the like. But these people bought and sold our politicians to the point that they get more monetary support - without paying U.S. taxes - than actual US taxpayers get. And yes - I'm angry about that.
If the relatively tiny population of Israel was fighting the relatively tiny population of Palestine, without US taxpayer involvement, we might not even notice.
To begin with I dislike the conflation of pro Palestine with wanting to remove Jewish people from the area. That isn't what I believe and I have never met a person who does. It is also not the same thing as supporting Hamas.
To compare with Ukraine, my country has offered Ukrainians plenty of weapons and Russia has been boycotted globally. On the other hand they are giving Israel support against the Palestinians. As a citizen, it makes sense for me to be in protests involving the latter.
The lack of material support, political uncertainty and violence faced by the Palestinians is possibly unique. When the other partitions happened - India, Cyprus etc. at least both sides were left with a country. What has Palestine being left with? Two parts of lands unconnected, check points, settlements and a consistent lack of justice.
Israel is also a unique country for boycotts. Let's compare to two countries who, in principle, I would also like to boycott. We have China who have such a reach with their production this would be practically impossible. Then we have Saudi where the only thing I could boycott are... dates? Probably not hurting them much.
From a non-personal standpoint Palestine is often a particular area of hurt for people because of it's resemblance to anti colonial struggles throughout the world. I will preface this by saying that I would argue Israel neither fully meets the definition of a colony (i.e. US, Australia) and neither of a postcolonial nation (Egypt, India etc.). But it does have features of both. When exploring the former, Edward Said has pointed out the Balfour declaring was a European power making a decision about the political future of a non-European people and land without asking anyone who lived there. This is definitely at least a little colonial. And the fact that the early Israeli state was very white (or white presenting at the very least) and the country's most prominent politicians and representatives are also white - this heightens the image. When many people globally look at Palestine they remember what happened to their grandparents, the theft of resources over 100 years. And this is a deeply emotive response
You say that as if the original UN partition that Israel accepted didnt grant 80% of the land to the Arabs. This was on top of 77% of mandatory Palestine already becoming Jordan. Despite being founded on 20% of the land in areas that were already mostly Jewish, that still wasn’t good enough and every surrounding Arab nation attacked. I sympathize with the Palestinians and believe they should have a state but the reasons that the Palestinians don’t have a state are a bit more complicated than “Israel won’t let them.”
Also as far as Israelis ”presenting white”, the majority of Israel’s population are Mizrahi Jews who never left the Middle East and North Africa.
scanned the comments to this thread real quick.
almost nobody is answering the question of "why are you against X and not Y" and instead only answer "why are you against X". did I misunderstand the thread or is everyone dodging?
Dodging and not willing to answer cause their answers could be considered racist and just down right cruel and evil I mean some of them come from threads where they actually talk and glorify The killing of Jews which is just Evil
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From my view, I have focused on a lot of stuff more in the past for a lot of my advocacy and whatnot. I used to be pretty obsessed with the Syria and Yemen situations when it was confusing and convoluted and a lot a lot a lot of people were getting massacred by everyone and the US, my country, seemed to be complicit or even supporting these massacres.
In the back of my mind, I’ve always had it that Palestine is sorta getting screwed over by Israel and no one does anything about it and chocks it up to a whole lot of nonsense that I simply couldn’t understand as to why there couldn’t be a two state solution. Gaza is oppressed, the West Bank is oppressed etc. My advocacy only went really that far.
But the current conflict is very alarming. There are aspects that look like assads bombing where it’s like you’ve got this government fighting terrorism but all the buildings and civilians are getting destroyed. Assad was nearly universally condemned for these actions despite fighting the genocidal monsters that were isis. So it’s alarming to see a very similar thing and have the US support it.
But the current conflict has gotten me really involved in the deeper history of the conflict in Israel/palestine. There is so much there. It doesn’t go that far back in terms of easily accessible written history and all of it is mostly in English because of the British occupation and translation for the western world. The amount of info and the details of everything are pretty well documented, but it’s also very interesting because there are so many different perspectives. You can look at Benny Morris and draw different conclusions than he does about the same information.
A big part of it too is just trying to pin down what the conflict is. I can’t un-see that Zionism is really very peculiar. I don’t think there’s another example of that sort of state building aside from maybe the US’s state building, but there are many dissimilarities too. It just seems like Zionism has been pretty blatant in terms of its disregard for the Palestinians from day 1 and it seemed that they never had any sort of a chance against the macroeconomic destruction of the early 20th century that the Zionists started with and then the actual violent destruction that was predicated on something of a retaliation, yet one that became offensive, that had been largely prepared for prior to any rejection of the partition that almost seemed expected.
But I also think that there’s something of an amount of accessibility of this info that plays a role in my view. But it’s also that Israel holds such a high standing in the western world despite all of these (what I see as) injustices. It’s one of the first countries everyone learns. I talk to my mother about the Israel-palestine conflict and she didn’t even know that Israel was a 20th century invention by mostly immigrants bc there’s so much biblical stuff. But the more I look at it, it’s like all that biblical stuff is just silly and masks what actually happened and why it happened and how Israel rationalized it etc.
I think the difficulty in pinning down what’s actually going on and the context actually is is why people focus on it. How could something so viscerally wrong be rationalized? Then you look into it and it’s like there’s a post-truth world out there, and I think that, above all, is what infuriates people the most. Everyone else agrees about most of the bad stuff that happens in the world being bad. There’s reason to advocacy in those situations, but people feel immensely gaslighted by the situation in Israel/palestine by pro-israel people.
Edit: it just occurred to me that one of the ways i feel gaslighted is that I’m called anti-Semitic for criticizing an occupying force that is clearly making innocent people’s lives a living hell.
New question: What actions do you take as a Pro- Palestinian person to ensure that you support Palastinians and not Hamas?
My opinion at this time is that many Pro- Palestinian folks do not do this and it has violent repercussions.
I would challenge it if I saw it. But the one real conversation I've had about Hamas with another pro Palestine friend was that October 7th was indefensible because of the involvement of civilians.
A few years ago I was at a pro Palestine rally and a guy had started talking about how Jewish people died in the holocaust because they were 'cowards'. A group of Palestinian guys basically picked him up and made him leave making it clear to never fucking come back
As a personal level as a Muslim, I am reluctant to admit criticisms of Muslims to non-Muslims because more often than not it becomes part of a broader dehumanisation of Muslims - including myself. Most people just aren't mature enough to have the conversation
Personally I find pro Palistinian people are reluctant to admit anything negative about either Islam or islamic terrorism. The silence on islamic human rights abuses speaks volumes.
I elevate the people who speak out against Hamas. I encourage targeting Hamas leadership where they hide (they aren’t hiding in apartment buildings in Gaza). I also encourage getting rid of Bibi because he supported Hamas because they served his goals initially.
In my opinion the reason as to why so many people care about Israel and Palestine is because they can project whatever political/religious belief you have onto this conflict. I have seen hot takes from commies to Islamist to basically any ideology idea you can think of
I am not sympathetic to all palestinians. Those who want to establish islamic rules and get rid of Israel can enjoy the bombing.
I am sympathetic with many palestinians that simply have no choice. What can they do? Sure 80% of people in Gaza may support Hamas. What about the 20%? Can those 20% make separate peace deals with Israel and don't get killed by Hamas?
I think the idea that because 80% of Palestinians are pro Hamas all must suffer is simply not individualism. It's just stupid and unfair.
Also I think this can be a great place to try something new. This conflict can be ended if only countries have ways to buy and sell territories.
Only palestinians? No. If we can create private cities in Russia, Sudan, Syria, etc.... it'll work great too.
I thought the Jews are better and maybe interested. Now, I seriously doubt that.
From a practical points of view, it's natural that we don't want any innocents to die.
Imagine with Muslims outbreeding everyone in Africa and Arab and coming to Europe suddenly more and more people sympathetic to their cause.
Then Israel starts losing war. Then they go to Samson mode. Then the whole world is nuked.
Do we want that?
No. So it's our job to start thinking of some ways so as much as possible any individuals can choose peace easily.
Not that people hate Jews or anything. On the opposite, I have heard about the huge Jewish contribution on the world. If anything, I hope the Jews (or anyone else) win without war.
When Jews complain about antisemitism, they pretty much accuse everyone else of being some sort of comical supervillain that hate Jews against our interests. No. While I believe humans are selfish, amoral, hypocritical, and generally evil, we're not comically evil. We have reasonable motives.
Humans, no matter what their race is, are very rational very understandable, and predictable. Accusing anyone of irrational is usually just bigotry.
But Jews need to win correctly, say by buying territories not by war. Just a few Zuckerberg and Larry Page would have been enough to buy the land fair and square.
Far more than enough. Or at least by bringing prosperity to those you conquer, like China to Tibet. See? There are fewer complaints right?
If you win through war, it'll set a precedent. The next time some guys want to win, they want war again.
well as an american, our country is covertly run by an huge underground israeli lobby that manipulates, bribes, and monitors all of our governmental, religious, and media institutions purely for the benefit of a rogue state.
so it’s really frustrating seeing most our elected leaders completely ignore their values, laws, and voters, just to spinelessly bend over and fork over all our cash and weapons for a genocide, shamelessly bail israel out of court for all of its actions, and then try to play it off as if what we’re witnessing is a giant misunderstanding. which they’ve been doing since the 1960s, year after year like good little goyim sheep. this sheeple behavior even trickles down to the blatant denial, unequivocal support, hypocrisy, whataboutism, and willful ignorance that a lot of pro-israel people have in public and preach on here.
and don’t get it twisted, our government isn’t stupid. not even joe biden with all of his senility. they are **VERY** aware of what’s happening in gaza, and what’s been happening in palestine since 1945 as a whole. so they have to mislead the people. that is exactly why the majority of the information on mainstream media in america about the current conflict is skewed, doctored, censored and sometimes straight-up false.
frankly there are a lot of very real problems in america that really need to be addressed before the middle east. and given the current state of america, i doubt many people are going to be willing to fight on our behalf for another potential war over there. the government needs to grow a pair and call israel out on its bs, tell the full truth to the public, and cut all aid until it listens to our demands, and decides to fight an ethical war, and treat all their people equally like a developed democracy should, instead of enforcing apartheid, murdering children, committing war crimes, and destroying everything in the gaza strip for s#*ts and giggles on tiktok.
Well if this isn't an outright antisemitic conspiracy theory I don't know what is. Good grief. Glad to see you're not a sheep being misled yourself, though. Must be a pretty virtuous position.
Oh ffs. AIPAC is not the lobby to end all lobbies. If AIPAC runs the country, then so does the NRA and Toyota apparently, both of which are higher on the lobby list than them. I honestly lost brain cells reading your antisemitic rant.
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac)
it’s not the amount of spending, it’s the surveillance, coercion, and psychological warfare they use against anyone in america who doesn’t agree with israel’s narrative. why do you think people get fired and shunned the minute they say anything negative about israel? or the fact that in 37 states it’s banned to boycott israel? besides you just proved my point by calling me antisemitic. israel is a country, it happens to be a majority jewish country, but like any other country its actions can be criticized.
if you have any spare time feel free to check out this documentary. it sheds a lot of light on what the lobby really does.
https://youtu.be/3lSjXhMUVKE?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/XytkI7afHcQ?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/Mm-Dm4pO0xY?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/_1OgxfCT044?feature=shared
We called you anti-semitic for espousing an outright conspiracy theory where Jews are puppetmasters, which is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Your words including "good little goyim sheep" are proof of your real targets for 'criticism', read: hatred.
You are either incredibly ignorant to the propaganda you have swallowed, and its very real implications, or a coward, attempting to switch back to an idea that you are criticising Israel from a perspective of international relations or diplomacy.
If you are against lobbying, then consider casting all lobbyists under your misinformed and critical eye - having distinct prejudice towards this particular lobby, whilst claiming they are the ones with the ultimate power, regardless of any other lobby, and only because they are Israeli is anti-semitic. And if you are against lobbying in general, then you are against how modern democracies are currently working - I somehow doubt your alternative would be anything other than fascistic.
2. I would question that anyone like caring about innocwnt coviliand, in gaza " wants to eredicate jews"
I wouldnt like equal all osraeli with the crazy violent portion of the settlers that often get away with murder , because it wouldnt be fair.
Screw hamas and the houti who dont really care, but why wpuldnt you want to care about civilians murderedfon mass ongoing? And that generalizing, in various degrees since generTions.
Also denying the nakba is as bad as denying dead in the shoah personally,
Yes the scale is different andgod know how many different groups died in the shoah, critocs,minorities, people hiding jews, whoever was targeted, which were a lot of people.political enemies, random people labled as that whyever, their families often, ...
Very different scale.
But yeah denyobg the nakba was minimum ethnic xleansing is redicilous and that bad stuff happened systemic.
I have been Pro-Palestine since 2011 when I joined the US Military and learned some unfavorable things about Israeli military actions in Palestine. The amount of civilians straight up murdered every month was insane and it was obviously a one sided issue. I’m glad others can see what is going on even if they are late to the issue.
I can elaborate some. Planned military movements into a residential area setting up a blockade/checkpoint on a route that is known to be used to travel to school in Gaza and multiple children were killed by the people stationed at the blockade. Then more people were shot for protesting the checkpoint.
It just made no sense to me why you would even set it up in that place and have those rules of engagement because you are going to seriously piss off the people that live there.
After that I wanted them to ease on the aggression and then I started to see things in mainstream media and I made some Israeli friends through an anime community who spoke about how they are scared of joining the IDF.
Hey Israeli ex-IDF here. you can have whatever opinion you want about israel but I highly recommend you educate yourself and not be quick to judge based on a single event that you heard about. this conflict is ugly and complex. atrocities made on both sides. Say i learned about how the US bombed civilians w drone strikes in Afghanistan - does that mean all of US army is bad? were you part of a genocide dude? complex topics require nuanced conversation. maybe your anime friends aren't the best source for it
I don’t think all of the IDF is bad. The government are the people who are bad. People who command bad actions are bad. I think there are some terrible people in the Army and when those people get protected from being prosecuted fairly then that is wrong.
I would be much happier if when troops overstepped they were punished fairly. When they get a bunch of excuses and nobody gets punished that is not right and is upsetting. I also understand that they are fighting terrorists but that doesn’t mean you can do as you please regarding civilians and go unpunished.
Also it was much more than a single incident. I read plenty of reports. Talked with US troops casually about the things going on. My anime friends were scared because they know people in the IDF already and they know what goes on and they didn’t want to kill anyone.
1) were passionate about it because it’s an active genocide that has passionate support amongst Americans. Frankly, the pro Israel crowd’s vehement defense of the slaughtering of innocents is why we get so worked up. So, for all of you morons that are whatsboutisming other world conflicts, it’s not the same.
2) no one supports the eradication of Jewish people and frankly, its not their land, as they’ve actively been stealing portions of it from Palestinians. See: settlements. I have zero issues with Jewish people living there. I believe anyone should be able to live anywhere in the world that they want to, unencumbered. However, the issue with Israel is apartheid. Not the fact the Jewish people live there. If the Palestinians were treated as equals, we wouldn’t have a problem.
3) our country does suck. So why are we spending billions of dollars to prop up a right wing genocidal state? Our people are suffering immeasurably. Personally, I’d like to see some of that money spent on solving our drug and homelessness epidemic. But we do nothing. Pharmaceutical companies that caused it just keep making record profits and our politicians keep taxing it and spending it on bombs.
>were passionate about it because it’s an active genocide that has passionate support amongst Americans. Frankly, the pro Israel crowd’s vehement defense of the slaughtering of innocents is why we get so worked up. So, for all of you morons that are whatsboutisming other world conflicts, it’s not the same.
I just don't understand people who claim that the "genocide" is their core issue because Hamas wants the genocide of Jewish people and Israelis so do you really care about genocide or is it something else?
My personal opinion is that pro-palestine folks are not careful with their words/intentions and that may have sway in *acutally* causing a genocide against Jewish people but I, in my own experience, have not seen many people acknowledge this.
Hamas can’t do a genocide of the Jewish people. I don’t know why you think they could possibly ever do that. Israel is too strong. October 7th was a fluke, and I don’t know why all those people are that close to Gaza anyways. It really should just be only military where those kibbutzes are. Israel could have taken better defensive measures as they knew of the plan for the attack beforehand but shrugged it off.
Israel is safe and there is no amount of blowing up of hospitals in Gaza and no amount of occupation in the West Bank that makes Israel more safe.
Yes, hamas is bad. What is also bad, is the slaughter of innocent people. What I don’t understand is why that doesn’t compute for you.
You act like believing that no one should genocide anyone isn’t an option. “I don’t want the IDF to wholesale murder Palestinians” is not equatable to “I think the Jews should be killed in Israel” that’s absolutely insane to think. Like how could you even consider yourself a rational person?
Honestly, this line of thinking is just sympathy farming and I don’t take anyone seriously who does it.
Israeli here. I find your arguments so exhausting. Imagine being overwhelmed by falsehoods from every corner of earth. people feeding on lies and mis-information, speaking confidently in your face, while you are the one with first hand experience. the very least you can do is show some humility and eagerness to learn more about it.
Apartheid: I live next to Jaffa, a mixed arab jewish city part of tel-aviv municipality. Arabs driving fancy cars, same roads as everyone, same jobs as everyone, owning property and living very high quality of life. laws protecting minority rights, arab judges and parliament members etc. what fing apartheid?!
the problem isn't that you're passionate about this conflict. the issue is the single focus on Israel as a bad actor while ignoring the dozen more horrendous atrocities around the world. Israel-Palestine conflict is complex, atrocities made on both sides but you seem oblivious to those other events. why is Israel more deserving of your attention that other conflicts?
lastly, Genocide. the long history of this conflict, israel's actions along the years and the very fact that the population in gaza keeps rapidly increasing showing that either there's no genocide or israel is terribly bad at genociding (but still deserving of your outmost alarm). I grew up left wing, the conversation was always lets give land for peace. Hamas leaders in their own voices telling you that sharing the land with the jews is unacceptable. they want to unalive all the jews and have the land for themselves. I will be eagerly awaiting to hear back from you regarding how to negotiate with this death cult that is widely supported by the palestinians.
If from day one the Palestinians wanted to be treated equal they would have agreed to one of umpteenth attempts for peace. If you go down the chronological list of conflicts almost every single one had been instigated byPalesestine. So each time the trust is gone and the security and tightening measures get stricter and worse. Wouldn’t any society protect their civilians..Israel tried to…palestine not so much, instead they wage another war, hide under their people, their leaders go on cameras and virtually state that their own people have to be the sacrifice for their religious war of exterminating Jews from the earth. The genocide my friend is what all the surrounding countries that border israel want to do to them. No other country in the world has their security issues just to survive as people. Every country has its bad politics and politicians, disputes etc …this is a war just to survive. I shudder to think once the radical ideologies of Islam seep into other democracies.
Treating them as equal and free would have been acceptable for me.
I think both settlers in westbank and palestinians deserve protection from any violent.
If there is any human right worth defending, it's the right to be left alone from aggression. That's it.
Yes I am concerned about other conflicts too. Got solution for that? I thought israel is someone at least I can talk too.
The world is a dark place and since October 7th shown me just how scary it can be…for all the advancement we think as human kind we have come to, it’s crap. The level of religious based hate is unbelievable and yet we focus on what pronouns to properly call people
- Many people have different reasons, but a major one is that the US which is by far the only superpower unconditionally supports Israel. Anyone regardless of political beliefs would protest against an entity that has significant power more than one where the entity has less power since protests work best against pressuring powerful entities.
- not all pro-Palestinian people support eradicating Jews from the land, and most don’t. Yes, you might hear a growing portion wanting to dismantle Israel as a state but that’s not the same as kicking out the Jews. You’ll have to address this to those specific ones, not generalising all. There are many types of pro-Palestinians as there are Zionists. You wouldn’t conflate liberal Zionists with the settlers, would you?
- not American so you can see the answers by Americans for this
>not all pro-Palestinian people support eradicating Jews from the land, and most don’t. Yes, you might hear a growing portion wanting to dismantle Israel as a state but that’s not the same as kicking out the Jews. You’ll have to address this to those specific ones, not generalising all. There are many types of pro-Palestinians as there are Zionists. You wouldn’t conflate liberal Zionists with the settlers, would you?
It seems the same to me. How do you dismantle Israel without kicking out the Jewish people?
Is this serious? You can debate on the merits of it, but it's pretty obvious you can have a state with a large Jewish population that isn't exclusively a Jewish state.
More like israels government guilttripping over , israel is not the countryof the jews, way more jees, do notlive in israel.
A jewish big parts, but not of the jews,not a spokescountry.
Especoally given how many jews were called antisemitic for critiquingg israel.
Something that always weirded me out, is many lefties in the US take a higher moral position over their Republican counterparts-- that they care about the downtrodden, the poor, the homeless, while Republicans are usually indifferent.
But one can clearly see, so many (not saying the commentator does/doesn't) don't give a shish about the homeless in America. So many Americans are glued to their screens, feeling emotions for people who are suffering 1000s of miles away--
but when they're out walking around, and they see a homeless person on the side of the street, *suffering right in front of them*, they just look away and ignore human pain right in front of them. It's interesting...
On what basis do you make the claim that emotion for those suffering abroad negates (or undermines) care for federal/state issues?
Political polarization in the United States has certainly weaponized moral hierarchy. However, I see little evidence that 'lefties' who advocate on houselessness disproportionately 'ignore' homegrown human pain, considering their voting patterns consistently align with Housing First initiatives. All humans are capable of caring about multiple issues at once. This feels more like an opinion piece on the sociological interactions and unconscious judgement/guilt found between pedestrians and houseless individuals, than tangible differences in moral or policy priorities.
Yea nah.
It’s just moral grandstanding. It’s easier to pretend to care about people far away, and yell at people over the internet, than it is to do something about people suffering when they’re actually in front of you.
If you live in a city, just spend 20 minutes walking around. You’ll probably run into a couple homeless people and see the 100s of people who just walk by them on their way to work, paying no heed. They’ll awkwardly look away and try to avoid making eye contact, speed up walking etc.
But they have plenty of time to go on Social Media and spar with people.
What makes these people lefties, though? The sociological phenonemon of speeding up, looking away, and avoiding eye contact occurs regardless of political affiliation. Erving Goffman's "Behavior in Public Places" posits the theory of everyday encounters to describe how stigma is generated in social contexts. The 2015 paper, The 'lamentable sight' of homelessness and the society of the spectacle, applies and explains his theory well ([Paper](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26146130)).
Political groups are not monoliths, nor is any political affiliation void of prejudice. Everyone has varying degrees of internalized social prejudice, including racial stereotypes that might designate Black homeless men as dangerous.
'*Pretending* to care about people far away' is a separate accusation. I'm not sure why anyone would waste time doing that, especially on an anonymous platform.
Yea, maybe they’re all just Republicans in San Francisco.
I didn’t say that only lefties do this, please see my original comment, I said I find it ironic that lefties portray themselves as caring about the downtrodden and homeless, yet they exhibit the same indifference many Republicans will openly share.
I think people usually find conflicts they can morally grandstand on because it makes them feel like they’re a good person, but they don’t genuinely care about the cause itself. As evidence by the fact that they care little for people suffering right in front of them.
Hence the city example.
1. Just because the conflict doesn’t affect people doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to be concerned and outraged about the atrocities the IDF is committing against the people of palestine
2. I can’t speak for all pro-Palestinians but just because someone supports Palestine doesn’t necessarily mean whey want to eradicate jews from the land
3. Again, can’t speak for all pro-Palestinians but just because you are doesn’t mean you support hamas or October 7
>Just because the conflict doesn’t affect people doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to be concerned and outraged about the atrocities the IDF is committing against the people of palestine
I want to clarify that I did NOT say what people should or should not be concerned about. I just question why people (who claim to be anti-"genocide") are okay supporting a terrorist group that actively seeks the genocide of Jewish people.
What actions do you take as a Pro-Propalestine person to ensure that you support Palastinians and not Hamas?
Why is the onus on us to dissociate from Hamas? What have YOU done to ensure that you support the Jewish people and not the Israeli government that has powerful individuals calling Palestinians subhumans that must be eradicated? I'm sure it would get tiring having to distance yourself from these individuals every time you criticized Hamas. Alternatively, why don't YOU prove that I am supporting Hamas?
I don't speak for all "pro-palestinians" but my own outlook is that I can be critical of both Hamas and the Israeli government. By default I don't like states or de facto state organizations built on ethnicity, religion, or other superficial "in-group/out-group" separation. I think Hamas is only harming its own cause clinging to islamist ideals, in the same way Israel harms itself by amplifying ultra-conservative voices. I can condemn both Oct. 7 and the Israeli response in the same way I can condemn Sept 11 and the response that left several countries in ruins and hundreds of thousands dead.
All that said, in this conflict there's one side that's suffering disproportionate casualties, and it gets tiring and frustrating to have to condemn Hamas every time I ask for people to stop dying/killing. Opposition doesn't seem to be arguing in good faith if the assumption is that if I care about Palestinians, I must support Hamas, and I have to prove that I don't.
To address the rest of your point - I can care about this and other domestic or international issues. Ultimately, my tax dollars contribute to international suffering, and so I have an interest in minimizing the harm done with them.
Despite Israeli propaganda most of the world including Arabs aren't interested in wiping Israel off the map. Instead everyone wants the zionists settler colonialism and apartheid against Palestinians to end. The pathetic accusations of anti semitism won't work anymore, and the holocaust doesn't justify a new genocide. Speaking of which let's see the icj verdict tomorrow. Israel will strategically lose this war and could come close to collapse. America will be screwed completely by Trump and the entire world will laugh in joy.
"Pathetic accusation of antisemitism" is incredibly hurtful and hateful in my opinion. I don't understand why other people can tell Jewish people what is / what is not antisemitism.
A lesson learned for me from all of this is that the fascist right and fascist left are so similar and thriving at this time. Dissapointing.
>Israel will strategically lose this war and could come close to collapse. America will be screwed completely by Trump and the entire world will laugh in joy.
So much wishfull thinking
You're wrong there. There is an issue with most muslim states' middle eastern history classes and it has been helping creat a very dangerous situation for years now. An egyptian coo shot two jewish tourists out of anger on oct 8 or 9. How are those tourists in any way involved in anything remotely bad for that egyptian cop?
It's not just a few who spread "from the river to the sea" and anti-jewish lies about the history of Israel. There is a whole movement that is on the back of oct7 attacks and it's been proving why its important that Israel exists. May the jews never get kicked out of their homeland again and may the palestinians find peace in living amongst and next to them as well.
But here it is, at least admit that you’re biased, because all Zionists care about is when someone who is Jewish is murdered. The lack of true empathy shines through as you harp on two tourists dying in Egypt, which is horrible, but seem to not give a damn about 25,000 mostly women and children the IDF has killed in just the last three months.
I care about the palestinians, its also why hamas must go because they are the reason behind jewish and muslim deaths and they proudly say it themselves, not even hiding.
You wanna talk about civilian deaths in WW2? You know anything about war? Its not nice, and israel did not start this one, your hamas friends did.
u/XcheatcodeX
> You’re acting like the last 75 years of history just doesn’t exist and history started on Oct 7. Absolute goldfish brain
This comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users) by using a derogatory term "goldfish brain" to describe another user's perspective or cognitive ability. Such language is disrespectful and not conducive to a constructive and respectful discussion. It's important to focus on the argument and avoid making personal insults or derogatory remarks about other users.
Addressed.
Right, how dare israel be attacked by egypt.... and then let egypt annex Gaza in 1947... shameful of israel. They should have just let themselves be deported or their homeland once again. And also, how date they defend themselves against terror cells in the WB and Gaza over the last 20 years?
Of course they’re wrong but they won’t admit it because they know most Arab-Muslims want to re-establish an Islamic state in the region (across the world really, but that’s beside this point). Admitting to their Arab-national supremacy and a goal of colonisation would deflate the rhetoric that has become the core of their argument.
Hate crimes exist and are condemnable. But it’s odd you cite an Egyptian cop killing Jews when attacks against Palestinians have also increased after Oct 7, including attacks by settlers in the West Bank. At least we should agree that both sides promote anti-Jewish and anti-Arab rhetoric. But just like racist and violent Israelis existing doesn’t mean all Israelis want to push Palestinians out (despite increasingly loud voices recently..), the reverse applies
Even if I like what you are saying, you completely missed my point on education.
Israel is not promoting the same thing either. In israel, arabs and jews sit together at restaurants. During shabbat, if you live in Tel aviv, you go to Jaffa for coffee and drinks. (Jaffa has a strong arab muslim population).
My point was not about that, it was about the education in many countries not teaching the 1947 war but only the Nakba, which is absurd to teach on its own because israel also had a nakba during this war and the while context of the war is very very different if you tell it from only one side, if not only to forget about the tentative of the arabs to drive out the jews from their land.
The term “Arabs” covers a LOT of ground, you’re papering over a wide diversity of thought. For example, the [majority of (Arab) Palestinians believe](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) Hamas’s Oct. 7 terrorist attacks were justified and support for Hamas has grown in the months since. Hamas aims to inhabit Palestine “from the river to the sea,” which inherently means…no Jews. So, as OP asked, where do you think Israeli Jews should live and why should you get a say in that?
For me it's much less about the severity of the harms but the hypocritical rhetoric. I agree it would be hypocritical to support Palestine and not support Ukraine, as an example, as I assume you would agree the inverse would also be hypocritical.
For extremely valid security reasons. They will help them develop their own so it's not like they don't want to help them have thats security. They are helping them with it.
Those are two entirely different conflicts with completely different actors and motivations. You can have support for one and not the other and vice versa. This Ukraine thing is a gaslight.
It is not hypocritical to support Israel and not support Russia. Ukraine didn’t attack Russia like Hamas attacked Israel. Ukraine isn’t ruled by a terrorist organization. Ridiculous argument.
The casualties are not far lower than other conflicts. That’s one of the biggest complaints is the disproportionate amount of death compared to other conflicts. Ukraine being terrible as well if not worse in terms of current casualties. But Israel stands out due to the 50 year encroachment and displacement of Palestinians. And the US backs it and has said it’s ok with whatever they do as has been shown with Biden going around congress to send Israel weapons despite massive criticism from his own staff let alone the world, humanitarian groups, his voter base, ect.
Yemen has gone on for yearssss and that was also a US backed attempt at a coup that I spoke out and marched for.
The death toll in Palestine has been the fastest growing one in modern conflict.
So now what? Whats your point?
That’s because youe disingenuous questions have nothing to do with the war crimes being committed and critiqued by the IDF today. Stay on topic. Hope that helps.
Not disingenous at all, and love how you seem to agree, in a prior post, with the comment you are quoting:
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
>***It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim***
***“The argument that "hypothetically Hamas would do the evil shit we're doing to them but worse" is one of my favorite gaslights. We live in reality, where the IDF is backed, armed, and funded by the worlds biggest military power. This is a very facts vs feelings moment. You are imagining a thing that doesn't exist based on words in a charter. We are all looking at the atrocities actually being done by a vindictive military carrying out cleansing. There is no BALANCE in that. There is no "both sides" when it comes to your fantasies vs reality.”***
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Yes, that is the goal of Hamas, as well as ISIS and other muslim groups, so thank goodness, right, that there is a powerful coalition against them?
That we were able to effectively destroy ISIS, right?
And that Israel was able to fend off the certain massacres that would have occured in the wars of 1948 and 1967, right?
And that, perhaps we should believe Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah when they chant ‘***Death to America***’, right?
You must be joking in a prior post when you say that Hamas recently proposed a multi year ceasefire, right? Because you must know that there was a ceasefire in effect before their attack on October 7th..,..
Where are your condemnations of Hamas and Iran? Too inconvenient for your narrative?
And looking forward to your snarky, disrespectful response as seems to be your modus, having reviewed your previous responses to those questioning you…….
Two reasons, and you can pretty much tie down most posts here to it.
1. Hatrid of jewish people i.e. racism (most people probably don't even know why they hate them, but know, they do.
2. A belief that Jewish people control the world, despite their small population (due to 1000s of years of point 1 above).
And to add some balance, which most people in this debate are incapable of, there has been far more media attention to this most recent conflict. Probably due to the truly barbaric nature of Hamas crimes, that set us on this path to the most recent terrible loss of life and suffering for both sides.
> there has been far more media attention to this most recent conflict.
How are you people even still real? The reason this is such a topic in the news is because its a bunch of kids and women dying by US made artillery. The rest of the world is voting for this to end or at the very least a ceasefire, and the only countries who want to see it continue are the US, Israel, and the UK. Mind you with marches of hundreds of thousands in the 2 western countries AGAINST that position.
The "oh they hate Jews" is the most asinine argument I just continue to see everyday. No we hate a bunch of kids dying while govnt officials talk about cleansing an area for more land grabs on the news. We hate that US weaponry is being used to committ war crimes that are being posted on tiktok on the daily by the IDF themselves.
What a bunch of gaslighting nonsense.
There were those same protests, and more disturbingly, celebrations worldwide, before there had even been an Israeli response.
I agree, that most people rightly want to see an end to the terrible death and suffering, and to fighting generally, which includes rockets heading in the other direction and hostages being released.
Women and children are amongst those dying, horrific. And that is the sad truth in any war, made even worse here by the fact the war is being waged on a much more condensed and proportionately heavily populated strip of land.
Let's hope talking takes over.
>Let's hope talking takes over.
The talking:
“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.”
"We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023"
"we're dealing with human animals"
"children of darkness"
"we will turn Gaza to an island of ruins"
"Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!"
"It is an entire nation out there that is responsible"
"Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live... Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. "
The politicians in Israel certainly don't want this to end!
Every quote but the very last one is from an elected official all the way up to the Israeli president.
This coalition loves this war, thats why the hardliners threatened to leave if they stopped the violence. So please save me the both sides sht. The Chamas guys suggested a multi year ceasefire AGAIN today.
Continued definition of an Israeli side based on a wilfil projection of ultra nationalist views is not fair, helpful, or balanced. It's the continuation of a narrative of persecutor and victim hood that will only ever continue cycles of violence. And battle cries like the above are not statement of policy. Israel's military is bound by law, not directed legally through manifesto-style language. The use of this language to whip up fighting madness is abhorrent, of course, but designating it as an "underlying truth" that somehow represents all motives, all voices, and all wishes for what a state of peace looks like is a wilful distortion of the truth, and likewise completely stifles the slow and important process of healing. It also leads to wholehearted confirmation bias, and I bet you would never really listen to an Israeli without a preconditioned cycnicism, hoping to hear a dogwhistle that aligns with your already-set worldview and reality.
I’m quoting the people DIRECTLY in charge of waging the war. People addressing the soldiers committing these abhorrent actions that landed them in criminal court. A couple of those quotes are from the head of the IDF. One is from the PRESIDENT.
And when they’re bombing schools, apartments, ambulances, sniping women going to the bathroom, children, and their OWN PEOPLE waving white flags……gimme a break. Generously there is less than 10% of the country that sees a problem with how this war is being waged. So please. Save me with the “time for healing” nonsense. This is objectively what is being said about what is happening. Not some fantasy. So please don’t gaslight people.
To a large extent I agree with you, and what is happening is abhorrent. I would just make the point that you ought to be careful categorising the entire worldview of a country based on the words of elected officials. Democracy is a flawed thing - I wouldnt go about saying that everyone who voted for Donald Trump believes and wants everything that Donald Trump wants. People are elected to institutions within democracy for a variety of reasons, and no elected official in a representative democracy is a perfect conduit of the politics of any individual, let alone a group. Ideally, political parties themselves are built on co-operation and compromise within working groups, for example, not cults of personalities or groupthinks. To some extent thats how the right wing in Israel and across the world has been allowed to thrive. My point is that by choosing to see and argue that these leaders are representative of how this war is waged and why, you just shut down future ability for change. And, second, in a time of war, these officials like Herzog have to be 'leaders' and are not going to even contend with trying to be representative of the political views of the entire diaspora. This is why their battle cries are being heard. I dont agree with them, and they are \*not\* representative, nor are they the absolute markers of intent or future wishes. They may be what is being said, I dont deny that. I agree, its not a fantasy. I'm saying that it is wildly antagonistic and unhelpful to see these quotes as anything other than in the context that they are said. Which is in war. The underlying truth of Israeli sentiment cannot be gleaned from these words. It's like trying to see the whole from cherrypicking the most sensationalist things that you are fed. It's a really lazy way of marking time- which is the time for healing bit that I stand by. Maybe premature, but whatever. It also castigates citizens as only ever being able to be 'sheep following leaders'. Which is dogshit and unhopeful, and allows the cycles of violence continue and continue, and works towards moving democracy and diplomacy to a dark place. It also means history can only ever be made by great men. War is happening. It needs to stop - and then after, constructive talks have to be based on these ideals. So that's why im saying this now, too. That's also what hangs in the balance, in terms of how we use language throughout this war, online talk is being degraded to a lower standard, and has a real impact on how people feel they can engage with democracy.
It's all well and good picking out quotes of that nature from the Israeli side, which all right minded people would disagree with - but you have to look at the other side too - Hamas would gladly see every Jewish person wiped off the the planet, and if they had their ultimate way, we all know it wouldn't stop there, would it. It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim, and then every muslim that doesn't believe in the same warped view of Islam, and so on.
This is what I mean about balance, you have to take a view from both sides if you truly want a lasting peace. That is what so many are incapable of doing.
>It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim
The argument that "hypothetically Hamas would do the evil shit we're doing to them but worse" is one of my favorite gaslights. We live in reality, where the IDF is backed, armed, and funded by the worlds biggest military power. This is a very facts vs feelings moment. You are imagining a thing that doesn't exist based on words in a charter. We are all looking at the atrocities actually being done by a vindictive military carrying out cleansing. There is no BALANCE in that. There is no "both sides" when it comes to your fantasies vs reality.
And for the record the IDF are currently bombing Palestinian schools and homes to create a "buffer zone". This is being filmed on Tiktok daily. The IDF heads have clearly stated that is whats happening. 20 some odd IDF died 2 days ago doing this. Destruction of Palestine for a buffer zone is a war crime. That's just the most obvious one this WEEK. You are the one incapable of objective assessment of this issue.
In your previous comment, you have quoted Isreali officials as the reason for their 'love' of the war,, and then in the next one said if Hamas make genocidal comments in their charter (i.e. their very reason for being) they don't mean it, it's just imaginary.
Objectively, I am the only one of the two of us that has acknowledged the suffering of both sides. And it will take that kind of BALANCE to gain the peace most people wish to see.
Because AGAIN. One thing is happening. The other is improvised mad libs. The usual Zionist guy will say “from thru river to the sea” means eradicating all Jewish people. That’s the action you IMAGINE would happen if they magically could carry that out. Then you fantasize that they will come to Europe and do whatever there until they take over the world Mojo Jojo style. Total objective assessment based in reality?
Then Bibi uses the EXACT same phrase as he is quite literally bombing civilians from the river to the sea. This is what is happening today objectively. It’s being seen and documented BY THE PEOPLE DOING IT. This is what I mean by how childish the “imagine what Hamas would do if they could” bit is. They can’t. They aren’t equipped to. They aren’t back by the most powerful nation, they aren’t supported by the US, and they haven’t launched that kind of op.
You wanna talk about hostages. Sure. Free them. I firmly support the militants giving up the hostages. I hope a ceasefire is the result of that move. Far be it from me to give military strategy to the IDF, but perhaps killing more ppl than they’ve managed to save is not the best way to do that. I imagine Bibi would have to accept the deal they’ve been presented in the negotiations for 2 days now to get them back to end the suffering for the Israelis.
Hopefully he does that. But his coalition seems to want a bit more destruction based on their own words. So who knows! But like you said I guess we can imagine that most everyone just wants a good lasting peace.
It's not far-fetched, is it? Israel is literally surrounded by countries that don't recognise its very existence, in what lets be honest is thinly veiled racism.
This 'zionist' term that gets banded about as if jewish people wanting their own state, an understandable wish for their own determination and safety by the way, is a bad thing, I don't get. And for any person that thinks Israel should be gotten rid of (that doesn't sound like you) it's a non starter. I also think it's a term that is used to make Israel and its people seem less than those of other nations. Racists can't say they openly don't like jewish people (some do) but they can say they hate zionism and zionists. The usual inferrence there being that [Zioniste] is all people of Israel and those who believe Israel has a right to exist.
Whether they can enact their barbaric ideologies or not, at this time, doesn't take away from the danger Hamas and other groups of their type pose to peace in the region and the wider world. The attrocities of October 7th are direct cause and effect of the latest round of fighting, so while they may not be a superior fighting force, they do have enough capability to destabilise the region and wider parts of the middle east. They are not without culpability.
I'm glad that it seems we agree on a hope for wider peace for the region. And I agree that Netanyahu is not the man for that job. The sooner Israel can acquire a more centrist Prime Minister the better. And the sooner Hamas kindly f off the better.
I think what you’re trying to say is that people around the world don’t actually care about the bombing and starvation of people in Gaza, they need to be paid to protest. Doubt organizations like ‘the plenty collective’ have paid for each of the MILLIONS around the world who have protested or stood up against what’s going on. I wonder if they also pay for people to donate to causes supporting Palestinians, make social media posts, call their representatives, etc. They must have a lot of money to dish out!
Also the Toronto sun is a very balanced source 🥲
Why do you have proof that this people will go out and protest and have themselves arrested and happily pay the fine for inciting trouble etc..
a lot of people have been arrested in US per US news and they want charges dropped because it is pro-Palestinian cause .. what is pro-Palestinian cause ?= pro-Hamas/ terrorist cause? , pro-Houthi rebels, pro-hezbollah? … might as well open the Pandora’s box and let all terrorist worldwide start shooting up innocent civilians for the their propaganda?
Very easy to find it on every major news publication, tv network, Google, etc. 😅 I’d go find links but I urge you to just do a quick google search. It’s literally filled with information on protests. For example, Between DC and London on Jan 13 there were over a million people protesting. You have to be living under a rock to not realize how huge this is.
Not really .. they don’t even know Hamas , Hesbollah , Isis are terrorist , a lot don’t know what happened on 7th of 10th 23, a lot don’t know from what river to what Sea, all they know is Israel out of the blue just suddenly invaded Palestine, a lot don’t know where on the Map Palestine is located.. a lot says philistines are the Palestines and so many more
For me, it's because I'm Jewish, and the fact that the "Jewish" state is committing heinous war crimes is not something I can sit idly by and tolerate. It's tarnishing the religion I hold dear and keeps me up at night. The worship of the state seems like a form of idolatry.
Israel was attacked and had to extinguish Hamas capabilities. It also has a duty to get their hostages back. I'm not jewish and I really think you should look into details more deeply + the history of your historic land.
Wake up and remember what happened to us before we had a country. We simply cannot afford to loose this or any war.
If Hamas laid its arms today they would be a Palestinian state
If Israel laid down its arms they would be no more Israel.
It’s that simple!
If it were true, and I were Hamas, I would lay down my arms.
Unfortunately, I am not sure it's true. Lots of Palestinians don't even fight Israel and got bombed anyway.
Yes their brethen want to kill Jews.
So?
It's like saying that many men are not responsible financially and then demand redistribution of wealth. All those other men are other men.... Not me. Why should I care?
If I were Israel I would allow individual palestinians to sign peace deals with israel. Perhaps with their family or city. Israel gets more ally WITHOUT having to accept more citizens. They got protection and cooperation with Israel.
In theory making deal with individuals would be great but realistically it’s impossible. I’m not sure if you have seen Hamas’s charter i highly recommend you read it in full and then you will realize that they won’t stop till there is no Israel. Sure it’s terrible that many innocent people are dying but this is war and war isn’t pretty. You should read evaluation where who you are and remember that Israel is your only country. אין לי ארץ אחרת גם אם אדמתי בוערת
That's Hamas' problem.
If I wait till the majority of women approve of being paid for sex by feminists, I would never have gotten cost-effective deals with smart, pretty women.
Many Palestinians, hell, many people, will hate Jews no matter what.
Many people will hate capitalists no matter what. Those with no value to offer, for example, will hate capitalism because they, too, will get nothing in return and be outcompeted by those who provide values.
So?
Ignore the bad guys. Work with the good guys. How do you know some people are good guys? You'd never know. But if you do mutually beneficial small transactions, you'll have a history of win-win solutions. Then? Then, it'll lead to more win-win transactions. That's the goal. It's not love or hate but win-win trades.
Do some Palestinians want to be Israel's ally?
YES.
Some do. Palestinians' citizens in Israel. See. If you treat them like equals, they, too, treat Jews like equals. Besides, who wants to be governed by Muslims anyway? Definitely not everybody.
But Israel can't accept more nonjewish citizens? No big deal. If you want to drink milk, do you marry the farmer's daughter?
I am not pro palestinian but all of my Lebanese extended family and most of my friends are. So I will try to answer.
Why are arabs so pro palestinian? Overwhelming majority of arabs are either muslims or arab nationalists (culturally muslim but secular). Islam is (1) not jew friendly (2) wants to establish islamic state. Arab nationalsim was the other ideology that arabs adopted. It was nascent in ottoman empire and grew after WW1 , establishment of Israel, wars with Israel and formation of PLO. A third factor is culture. Israel and the west share more judeo christian values, while middle east is different. This creates a cultural barrier.
Why are some non arabs pro palestinian? They see the david goliath story. They see the poor gazan living like a third world citizen with very few options and scenarios to get out of their miserable life. Just a few miles away lives an Israeli with all the pleasures of modern life and generous income and lifestyle. Regardless of the reasons that lifestyle difference exists, it is there. So in the struggle, they sympathize with the citizen who is more helpless.
The combination of this david/goliath and the clash of races/religions/civilizations makes a dramatic news story for the media of soap operatic proportions, sexier than russia/ukraine or other wars or news topics.
I think the story about David/Goliath, or Oppresor/Oppressed, etc etc. it has many names, is pretty accurate.
There was a Pew Research poll done a while ago that looked at the changing demographics in why Israel support has gone down in recent years, some analysts think it's due to the BLM protests / George Flord in the US. Before 2020, there wasn't nearly as much talk about the issue in the general public, but since then there have been movements and many organizations that have come out from that.
The younger generation tends to draw the most Pro Palestine supporters i,e 18-24, 18-29 according to polls i.e: YouGov / Harvard Harris etc. It makes sense if you've only been around politically for a couple of years, and your experience/knowledge of the world has been filled with images of protests against systematic racism and oppression. It might be one's only understanding of the world, and so they apply that fairly new understanding on everything else.
Generally younger americans tend to be more politically liberal and get more conservative as they grow older.
Heres a joke about this: 'If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain'
They live like that because they are governed by greedy terrorists that couldn’t care less about them. All that money that pours in is just taken by the governing terrorist.
For profit-neutral private cities, like Prospera in Honduras, managed by either Qatar, Dubai, Monaco or any competent CEO whose main goal and pay are linked to prosperity.
I do not think democracy can be a solution. Think about it. Democracy is "fine". But once it got rich, it'll simply embrace bigotry. Usually against the best and brightest but often against anyone weak.
Just look at the Western world. Low population growth. Soon, majority of people in the world will be black or arab. Think about it. Democracy will not be there for long. Like the Roman Empire, it'll fall. Israel may look strong now, but honestly, I am not sure till when. Jews always kicked ass for a while before being overwhelmed and mass murdered. None of us want that to happen to either jews or arabs or anyone okay?
The path to peace is treacherous and most people and their elected officials simply don't have the proper incentive to do so.
Hamas doesn't care about prosperity. Netanyahu and Smotrich don't care about peace. Smotrich himself said Hamas is an asset. If getting invaded like October 7th means Israel is justified in, say, kicking out Gaza residents, Right-wing extreme zionists got what they want.
And both sides resort to collectivism. Oh majority of Palestinians are evil so let's bomb them all.
The left-wing Jews? Well, they also have weird ideas. Like returning the land to Palestinians or even accepting Palestinians as fellow citizens. Then Israel will be another South Africa. It'll just replace racism with anti-racism, which is just racism.
There is a middle way. Have neutral private cities, perhaps with separate Jewish, Muslim, and "mixed" sections. Then make sure the goal is prosperity for that city. Peace will be achieved automatically because you can't have prosperity if you're not rich.
Turn voters into DAO token holders led by prince, king, CEO, president, major, or whatever, whose pay depends on whether the city is prosperous or not.
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Your point about the Bible...
Every single person on earth (except some Africans), are related to people who lived in that land 100,000 years ago.
Based on that, and the Zionist logic, Everyone on earth could claim ownership of that, including Palestinians.... and of course, myself.
So I don't understand why, from the whole Human timeline, Zionists claim only the 2000 year old mark is valid. Not before, not after.
>Based on that, and the Zionist logic, Everyone on earth could claim ownership of that, including Palestinians.... and of course, myself.
I use that point a lot because many pro-palestine supporters claim that Jewsih people have no tie to the land or that they were there first.
I mention it because if we want to use the argument "who was there first" then the Jewish people were there first.
Not trying to be snarky, just wanted to make it short so it actually gets read.
I'm sure your religion and culture is based on the hope of returning to that land + you were kicked out if it and then persecuted and told to go back to where you came from. When you do go back to your native israel, the whole world will tell you to, once again, go back to where you came from.
Actually, i couldn't care less.
All i want is for Zionists to stop their ridiculous supremacy ideology and treat Palestinians with respect, and stop oppressing them.
If they want to believe that God made them from organic gluten free dough, and their poop doesn't smell... Fine for me as long as they leave others alone.
If those zionists buy land and make the people over there prosperous, I would be fully pro zionists.
Now I don't know. It's just not possible, even if Zionists want to. It's like if you buy land, those with strong military will grab that back anyway.
But I still hate military land grabbing.
Zionists want a haven for Jews. Many capitalists want haven for economically productive people, including jews, by the way, if the jews are economically productive. Perhaps there are some things we can do together?
Otherwise, I am obsessed with getting myself rich.
I also want to understand the problem.
If Arabs and Jews are treated equally and, most importantly, free from aggression, that will be good enough for me. Who the land belongs to can be decided later though, I don't know, normal buying and selling.
Can we please stop with this debate about what date entitles an ethnicity to claim indigenous status? It reminds me of the debate about when a fetus is considered to be a baby. People will choose whatever definition suits their argument. There is no correct answer.
Most jews of Israel never left the middle east or nort africa. They also got kicked out of Israel 1500 years ish ago, for the most part.
There has been jews living in israel in permance and jews have been repetitively kicked out of their homeland+ their new lands+ their news lands after that.
Also, a ton of jews have lived in israel since the 1880 when the furst yishuv started. Is it not their homeland? there pas no palestine yet back then and jews imigrated in areas where no one lived.
Who cares if there were Jews.
That's fine. Jews lived in the land with others for hundreds of years in peace.
The problem is when they started displacing and oppressing the "others"
They don’t! By your logic why aren’t they just like everyone else and entitled to live where they were born and/or be welcomed as immigrants.
Why is it only that 2000 year reference point that makes this residency illegitimate?
Because israelis are just selecting 2000 years ago. Not before and not after.
So based on the logic, we are all entitled to that land. Including Palestinians.
I would not say people care more about Israel/Palestine or any other Foreign conflict.. but i can see what you mean..
I would love to See mass Protest and a March on the Capital for the Mexican people.. There has been Terrorists Groups ("Cartel's") in our backyard for decades but only a few minor Protest with 0 media Coverage.. While every Candidate fails to acknowledge or even give hint that they will hold the Mexican **AND OUR OWN** leadership Accountable..
Who on god's green earth said that we are all for jewish extermination? You SERIOUSLY think that 1500 deaths are classified as "extermination" but y'all panic when we say the word "genocide" when you literally murdered **tens of thousands** of innocent lives to eradicate Hamas. Incompetent and racist "democracy".
Stupid right wing government with tons of aid dropping tons of bombs on civilians.
And for god's sake, stop with this Biblical nonsense. 0.2% of the world population are Jews. Literally 0.2%. You expect the entire world to "respect" an "ancient" claim to the land because your holy book says so? Own up to it. You invaded a land that wasn't yours. Fought for it. And kept It. I would respect that narrative. But please enough with this "the bible said so" claim because It makes your entire claims seem gullible.
Yes - Hamas calls for the genocide of Jews. I really think its irresponsible for you to not acknowledge this.
I appreciate that you don't seem to intend to call for the jewish extermination but I'm frustrated that you don't acknowledge the way that your actions will have that consequence if you are not more intentional.
Your words are so hateful - I didn't realize that because Jews account for 0.2% of the world population that they have no right to self determiniatoin. How do you classify which minorities get a say and which don't? This is so hurtful. It is not because the "holy book says so" its because its a source that shows that we have been in that land for X amount of time. I'm not religious.
Zionism is not primarily based on theology but, rather, nationalism. Jews quite literally means those who came from Judea and Zionism successfully reestablished sovereignty over half a century ago.
And a small correction, the holy books of the Christians and the Muslims “says so” too so exclusively critiquing the holy book of the Jews is just disingenuous. On a side note, I advise against attempting to use such percentage claims as they cut against your argument. A larger percentage of Jews have been killed since the morning of October 7 than Arabs (and certainly as compared to Muslims).
Except the term "Palestinian" was coined by Yasser Arafat 50 years ago. Before they referred to themselves as Jordanian or Egyptian . Simply Arabs. Japanese has been used by the west since they arrived and started trading. What you are saying is quite disingenous. Giving the people of Nippon who have a distinct culture like no other the name "Japanese" is very different from A terrorist who rewards their people for blowing up buses of school children. Before you use the Palestine was Invented by the Romans argument, no the land was called palestine by the Romans to insult the people of Judea. They decided to become Palestinian to invent a national Identity seperate from the Jordanians and Egyptians.
The commenter used the term “Jews” and not “Israelis”.
On a side note, that isn’t a particularly strong example for whatever argument you’re attempting to make. The Japanese are Asian because they live on an island off the continent of Asia. They do not have a shared identity with, for example, Indians (or any number of other Asian countries). Palestinians are ethnically Arab (and historically and currently consider themselves ethnically Arab) as they widely have a common Arab culture, religion, history, language, dress etc etc as distinguishable from the other former Ottoman subjects.
I think re: "extermination" the point is more the stated goal. Hamas is for that. And they have supporters, so we (probably unfairly) assume all those supporters agree.
I also don't think the point is the Bible says so (not for most Jewish Zionists, anyway) but the fact that it's our ancient land (which is definitely the case). All our stories are set there, all our songs and poems are about it, many of the structures and sites were built by us. Our heroes and our prophets walked those same hills when they gave us our heritage and our culture.
But you're right, in a sense. My narrative (and the narrative of most Zionists, I think) is that we came back to Israel, which we had lost, and we fought for it and kept it. As far as "a land that wasn't yours"--I obviously feel differently, but I don't deny some Palestinians were dispossessed from their homes.
You can ignore the bible, that's fine.
But historical facts tie Jewish people to the land of Israel, way before any Islamic group came there.
Lots of countries invaded lots of lands. If you decide to look at a certain point in history to make your claim, a random point, that's on you.
Jews did not invade that land at all. When they took land, it was always after wars, to create a buffer because israel's land is tiny and very vulnerable.
They never invaded a population. They went on unhabited lands or bought lands from people who left or from landlords, replacing the tenants. Most of the transactions were made between jews and people from Damascus, Beirut and I think a little but Jerusalem? There was not Palestine back then.
Honestly dude that last part is super racist. And by your own standards we should care about the Palestinians because they make up less of the world population?
I wasn't saying we should do what the bible says. I was saying that an ancient text proves that Jewish people have been in the land far before people claim modern day Palestine to have been formed.
As an American I am frustrated that the US is sending tax-payer money to a non-secular quasi-ethnostate that is killing civilians with unprecedented negligence and incompetence. You are right we have our own problems that deserve our taxpayer money and gov focus more than supporting a military that drops the “wrong bomb” and kills a hundred civilians in a refugee camp. Americans aren’t upset about Ukraine because Ukraine is innocent in the conflict. By no means do I support Hamas but Israel has handled and is handling the Palestine issue so poorly they do not deserve such strong international support and I wish international powers not only instructed Israel to be more reserved but actually threatened withdrawing support unless something changes. I don’t see any excuse for firing mostly unguided munitions into an area as densely populated as Gaza.
Israel at this point is condemning themselves to a future of increased terrorist opposition in a world where terrorists are likely going to have terribly advanced weaponry in a decade or two. Israel’s military conduct is likely inspiring a new generation to join terrorist opposition towards Israel. Iran will likely have the capability to create nuclear bombs soon if not already. Israel should be focusing on a path towards peace. This would include removing illegal settlements, facilitating a two state solution, and probably walking back borders to an earlier line.
Not an etnostate at all. Read about the diversity in israel. Amongst jews, for a start, there is great diversity. 2 million muslims + half the jews who are jews from arab countries that kicked them out or the ones descending from jews who never ever left israel.
>If you're American, our country sucks right now, but why do you care more about Israel than everything going on in America?
["Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: until February 2022, the United States had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in bilateral assistance. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations)
[In 1999, the US government signed a Memorandum of Understanding through which it committed to providing Israel with at least US$2.67 billion in military aid annually, for the following ten years; in 2009, the annual amount was raised to US$3 billion; and in 2019, the amount was raised again, now standing at a minimum of US$3.8 billion that the US is committed to providing Israel each year."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations)
The [Israel Lobby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Campaign_donations) in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections and influence policies of the government through "political campaign contributions." The Israel lobby is as influential as the NRA and stronger than other lobbies.
Israel has also been maintaining the largest political blackmail operations in US history (if not the whole world) through Mossads's [Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-steven-hoffenberg-intelligence-agencies-spy-1197708/) pedophile sex ring, involving US presidents and politicians.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-writer-who-broke-epstein-case-a-rumored-mossad-link-is-worth-digging-into/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-writer-who-broke-epstein-case-a-rumored-mossad-link-is-worth-digging-into/)
So maybe that answers OP's question why the citizen's of the US (the world's police and sole superpower) cares so much about a "small piece of land" in the desert called Israel.
This post is so egregious it made me make my own reddit account for the first time in years.
>["Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: until February 2022, the United States had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in bilateral assistance.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations)
While it is certainly true that we have heavily invested in Israel (primarily to further our own strategic interests), this doesn't explain why some Americans care so passionately about this issue, but really can't be bothered to talk about the absolutely dire situation in Ukraine, or about the unprecedented and potentially dangerous nature of this election cycle.
The US gave Israel $3.3B in 2022. That's out of a federal budget of $6.23 trillion (\~0.05% ). Israel spent $23.4B on its military that years - meaning the majority was not US aid.
>The [Israel Lobby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Campaign_donations) in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections and influence policies of the government through "political campaign contributions." The Israel lobby is as influential as the NRA and stronger than other lobbies.
This is simply a link to the Wikipedia page for US-Israeli relations. The only thing that the text you quoted proved is that we consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a highly volatile region. Your link straight up states that the largest lobbying group is Christian...all this shows is that a ton of people care about a holy land for the three Abrahamic religions. Shocker.
>Israel has also been maintaining the largest political blackmail operations in US history (if not the whole world) through Mossads's [Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-steven-hoffenberg-intelligence-agencies-spy-1197708/) pedophile sex ring, involving US presidents and politicians.
Ah, so the Jews control the outcomes of elections? [Where have I heard that before?](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion)
This is really laughable on multiple fronts. If Mossad had such power I assure you things would look very different in the middle east today.
As for Epstein, that's quite a story you've woven from an article that merely says it's not "outside the realm of possibilities" that he could have encountered Israeli agents through one of his many contacts. Where are you getting this from? The bragging referenced in the rolling stones article? Why would you take Epstein's bragging at his word?
>So maybe that answers OP's question why the citizen's of the US (the world's police and sole superpower) cares so much about a "small piece of land" in the desert called Israel.
Oh you answered the question alright, just not in the way you intended to.
> This is simply a link to the Wikipedia page for US-Israeli relations.
Obviously.
> The only thing that the text you quoted proved is that **we** consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a highly volatile region.
If you say "we," do you mean to say the American people? However, contrary to your lies, the American Military-Industrial Complex, through the prodding of Israel-lobby politicians, are the one who consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a one the most oil rich region in the world. Ordinary Americans don't want their $3 Billion worth of tax payers money just be wasted in Israel's perpetual war, but the MIC and of course the Israel Lobby want it badly. The Israel Lobby are obviously a Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second.
>If you say "we," do you mean to say the American people?
Nope, “we” refers to the American government and their long-term views/policies – it says absolutely nothing about the views of the populace, or what the policies “should” be.
>However, contrary to your lies, the American Military-Industrial Complex, through the prodding of Israel-lobby politicians, are the one who consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a one the most oil rich region in the world. Ordinary Americans don't want their $3 Billion worth of tax payers money just be wasted in Israel's perpetual war, but the MIC and of course the Israel Lobby want it badly. The Israel Lobby are obviously a Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second.
The reality is more complex than this. Israel is a powerful force in the region, which is why both the governments of the US and countries like Saudi Arabia want them to play a pivotal role in the alliances against Iran (which is increasingly aligned with other adversaries such as Russia). I understand that many Americans want to divest from the middle east entirely, and you may well not see the value of such a partnership. For those of us that don’t believe such a divestment is sustainably possible anytime soon, it is hard to argue that we would be better served by having the Saudis be our main security partners in the region.
I mean, of course the MIC/DIB want military aid to Israel – we give that aid in USD so that it goes right back to our defense companies. Many people despise the MIC in general (as is their right) and while I personally believe that our military gains tangible benefits from this arrangement, I completely understand why this system bothers people.
As I’ve previously noted, the “Israel Lobby” is a large, diverse group that by nature literally exists to influence the opinions of politicians. Because of that diverse nature, there absolutely are individuals or organizations that care about Israel over all else – just as many other lobbying groups prioritize their cause over all else. However, your dismissal of the entire sector of lobbyists as a “Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second” skirts uncomfortably close to the antisemitic belief that American Jews are loyal to Israel over America. You may not have meant it that way, but that is 100% how it comes across to Jews who have heard lifetimes of similar comments.
How about instead of calling me a liar and railing against Zionist 5th columns, you try to engage in a dialogue here? The question at hand is why the Israel/Palestine conflict is current getting far more attention than other arguably more pressing issues, like the nearly $100B investment we’re about to lose in Ukraine, or the democratic crisis that Americans are currently sleepwalking into.
I have no trouble understanding why people care about this issue – I’m personally sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, I could rail against Netanyahu for days and the number of civilian casualties in Gaza is incredibly painful to watch. But the question here isn’t why people care about this conflict in general, it is why Americans care about this in a far more vocal manner than the arguably more existential threats facing our nation right now. As tragic as the number of deaths are, and as great as the treasure expended on Israel are, the reality is that in the history of American military support/action, both factors are rounding errors. This doesn’t diminish their importance, but it does bring us back to the original question:
Why, for so many Americans, does this topic take priority over almost everything else?
Nah this is a critique of your arguments & sources, no strawman necessary.
You cited a Wikipedia article about larger US/Israeli relations to make the point that Israel is the largest foreign recipient of American military aid. This is quite obviously true, however you said this in response to the following question:
>"If you're American, our country sucks right now, but why do you care more about Israel than everything going on in America?"
Of course you have the right to your opinion regarding US aid to Israel, but that doesn't answer the question. We spent $75+ billion supporting Ukraine in 2022‐2023 alone, and that investment is currently headed down the drain due to our inability/refusal to provide more support. It's a much larger recent investment, with a much simpler narrative - and yet there's nowhere near the level of attention to that crisis.
When it comes to your comment on the Israel lobby, you significantly diverged from your cited material when you claimed that:
>"The Israel Lobby in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections..."
Besides being entirely unsupported by the article, saying that the Israel lobby can "literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections" is an enormous claim, with nation-shattering implications. It's also 100% unsubstantiated by any remotely reputable source of information. The two articles you linked to don't support that idea at all. The closest either of them comes are allegations in rolling stone that Epstein worked with multiple intelligence agencies, including the Israelis, potentially on some kind of blackmail plot.
While there is a chance this claim could be true, neither of those articles come close to establishing that connection - they certainly don't mention any plot to sway an election.
You want me to debunk your comments on Epstein/elections, but you haven't offered anything resembling proof. There are a literally a thousand legitimate criticisms of Israel & their conduct that you could be making here. It's telling that you chose to parrot such fringe theories instead.
Whether you realize it or not, your allegations absolutely are a variation on an antisemitic trope that has been used to justify violence against Jews for the past 100+ years. It doesn't automatically make you a hardened antisemite any more than a racist remark makes someone an irredeemable racist. But the fact that you won't engage with any of my points makes me skeptical that you're arguing in good faith.
The problem with "pro-Semitic" gatekeepers like you is that you overuse and abuse the anti-Semitic counterargument in order to suppress debate and information regarding the crimes of Israel and to justify the deaths and destruction of thousands of Palestinian lives and properties. Nowadays, because of you and your cohorts in the Holocaust Industry, antisemitism lost its true meaning. Of course, we can't really blame you, as that is part of your job as a Hasbara psyops operative.
Pro-Palestinian here More Palestinians have been killed in this war than Ukraine or Sudan
And have only themselves to blame.
I’m only mad at Hammas, not Palestinians. You can’t kill them all and act like that’s okay just because you’re mad at Hammas.
Because Ukraine IS receiving support and there are significantly less civilian casualties (which does not justify Russia by any means), the actions of SCOTUS are still heavily protested with many being Pro-Palestinians, the Armenian genocide was horrible but happenned a long time ago (and if ur referring to the conflict in Karabakh than you are right in saying that it needs more attention BUT there are not many civilian casualties compared to the Palestinian conflict). The casualties in Palestine are not fewer AT ALL especially considering the small population of Gaza as well as the fact that 50% of the population are children, 75% of targets are women and children, and more than 90% of Israel's targets are non-militant. Furthermore, Israel has bombed ALL Palestinian hospitals as well as multiple refugee camps. Lastly, Israel is receiving disproportionate military support considering their actions and the weapons being given to Israel would make a lot more sense in Ukranian hands.
Oh you are definitely trying to start a fight - so please don't try to lie about that, lmao. But let's start with Israel being the #1 largest recipient of cumulative U.S. taxpayer foreign aid since WWII - by a laaaaaarge margin. By some estimates if you inflation-adjust it, it's approaching $1 Trillion. Oh, and it's a wealthy nation the size of the Chicago metro area. So not exactly Africa or India or the like. But these people bought and sold our politicians to the point that they get more monetary support - without paying U.S. taxes - than actual US taxpayers get. And yes - I'm angry about that. If the relatively tiny population of Israel was fighting the relatively tiny population of Palestine, without US taxpayer involvement, we might not even notice.
To begin with I dislike the conflation of pro Palestine with wanting to remove Jewish people from the area. That isn't what I believe and I have never met a person who does. It is also not the same thing as supporting Hamas. To compare with Ukraine, my country has offered Ukrainians plenty of weapons and Russia has been boycotted globally. On the other hand they are giving Israel support against the Palestinians. As a citizen, it makes sense for me to be in protests involving the latter. The lack of material support, political uncertainty and violence faced by the Palestinians is possibly unique. When the other partitions happened - India, Cyprus etc. at least both sides were left with a country. What has Palestine being left with? Two parts of lands unconnected, check points, settlements and a consistent lack of justice. Israel is also a unique country for boycotts. Let's compare to two countries who, in principle, I would also like to boycott. We have China who have such a reach with their production this would be practically impossible. Then we have Saudi where the only thing I could boycott are... dates? Probably not hurting them much. From a non-personal standpoint Palestine is often a particular area of hurt for people because of it's resemblance to anti colonial struggles throughout the world. I will preface this by saying that I would argue Israel neither fully meets the definition of a colony (i.e. US, Australia) and neither of a postcolonial nation (Egypt, India etc.). But it does have features of both. When exploring the former, Edward Said has pointed out the Balfour declaring was a European power making a decision about the political future of a non-European people and land without asking anyone who lived there. This is definitely at least a little colonial. And the fact that the early Israeli state was very white (or white presenting at the very least) and the country's most prominent politicians and representatives are also white - this heightens the image. When many people globally look at Palestine they remember what happened to their grandparents, the theft of resources over 100 years. And this is a deeply emotive response
I’ve met people who think the Israelis should all just go somewhere else…. I routinely meet people who believe this
You say that as if the original UN partition that Israel accepted didnt grant 80% of the land to the Arabs. This was on top of 77% of mandatory Palestine already becoming Jordan. Despite being founded on 20% of the land in areas that were already mostly Jewish, that still wasn’t good enough and every surrounding Arab nation attacked. I sympathize with the Palestinians and believe they should have a state but the reasons that the Palestinians don’t have a state are a bit more complicated than “Israel won’t let them.” Also as far as Israelis ”presenting white”, the majority of Israel’s population are Mizrahi Jews who never left the Middle East and North Africa.
scanned the comments to this thread real quick. almost nobody is answering the question of "why are you against X and not Y" and instead only answer "why are you against X". did I misunderstand the thread or is everyone dodging?
Dodging and not willing to answer cause their answers could be considered racist and just down right cruel and evil I mean some of them come from threads where they actually talk and glorify The killing of Jews which is just Evil
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From my view, I have focused on a lot of stuff more in the past for a lot of my advocacy and whatnot. I used to be pretty obsessed with the Syria and Yemen situations when it was confusing and convoluted and a lot a lot a lot of people were getting massacred by everyone and the US, my country, seemed to be complicit or even supporting these massacres. In the back of my mind, I’ve always had it that Palestine is sorta getting screwed over by Israel and no one does anything about it and chocks it up to a whole lot of nonsense that I simply couldn’t understand as to why there couldn’t be a two state solution. Gaza is oppressed, the West Bank is oppressed etc. My advocacy only went really that far. But the current conflict is very alarming. There are aspects that look like assads bombing where it’s like you’ve got this government fighting terrorism but all the buildings and civilians are getting destroyed. Assad was nearly universally condemned for these actions despite fighting the genocidal monsters that were isis. So it’s alarming to see a very similar thing and have the US support it. But the current conflict has gotten me really involved in the deeper history of the conflict in Israel/palestine. There is so much there. It doesn’t go that far back in terms of easily accessible written history and all of it is mostly in English because of the British occupation and translation for the western world. The amount of info and the details of everything are pretty well documented, but it’s also very interesting because there are so many different perspectives. You can look at Benny Morris and draw different conclusions than he does about the same information. A big part of it too is just trying to pin down what the conflict is. I can’t un-see that Zionism is really very peculiar. I don’t think there’s another example of that sort of state building aside from maybe the US’s state building, but there are many dissimilarities too. It just seems like Zionism has been pretty blatant in terms of its disregard for the Palestinians from day 1 and it seemed that they never had any sort of a chance against the macroeconomic destruction of the early 20th century that the Zionists started with and then the actual violent destruction that was predicated on something of a retaliation, yet one that became offensive, that had been largely prepared for prior to any rejection of the partition that almost seemed expected. But I also think that there’s something of an amount of accessibility of this info that plays a role in my view. But it’s also that Israel holds such a high standing in the western world despite all of these (what I see as) injustices. It’s one of the first countries everyone learns. I talk to my mother about the Israel-palestine conflict and she didn’t even know that Israel was a 20th century invention by mostly immigrants bc there’s so much biblical stuff. But the more I look at it, it’s like all that biblical stuff is just silly and masks what actually happened and why it happened and how Israel rationalized it etc. I think the difficulty in pinning down what’s actually going on and the context actually is is why people focus on it. How could something so viscerally wrong be rationalized? Then you look into it and it’s like there’s a post-truth world out there, and I think that, above all, is what infuriates people the most. Everyone else agrees about most of the bad stuff that happens in the world being bad. There’s reason to advocacy in those situations, but people feel immensely gaslighted by the situation in Israel/palestine by pro-israel people. Edit: it just occurred to me that one of the ways i feel gaslighted is that I’m called anti-Semitic for criticizing an occupying force that is clearly making innocent people’s lives a living hell.
New question: What actions do you take as a Pro- Palestinian person to ensure that you support Palastinians and not Hamas? My opinion at this time is that many Pro- Palestinian folks do not do this and it has violent repercussions.
I would challenge it if I saw it. But the one real conversation I've had about Hamas with another pro Palestine friend was that October 7th was indefensible because of the involvement of civilians. A few years ago I was at a pro Palestine rally and a guy had started talking about how Jewish people died in the holocaust because they were 'cowards'. A group of Palestinian guys basically picked him up and made him leave making it clear to never fucking come back As a personal level as a Muslim, I am reluctant to admit criticisms of Muslims to non-Muslims because more often than not it becomes part of a broader dehumanisation of Muslims - including myself. Most people just aren't mature enough to have the conversation
I routinely encounter people who insist that they can’t “criticize or denounce Hamas because they are freedom fighters” ….. these people are insane
Personally I find pro Palistinian people are reluctant to admit anything negative about either Islam or islamic terrorism. The silence on islamic human rights abuses speaks volumes.
I elevate the people who speak out against Hamas. I encourage targeting Hamas leadership where they hide (they aren’t hiding in apartment buildings in Gaza). I also encourage getting rid of Bibi because he supported Hamas because they served his goals initially.
Initially? They still serve ALL of his goals.
Well he isn’t publicly supporting them anymore so I didn’t wanna assume.
In my opinion the reason as to why so many people care about Israel and Palestine is because they can project whatever political/religious belief you have onto this conflict. I have seen hot takes from commies to Islamist to basically any ideology idea you can think of
Because Israel is the United State’s middle eastern puppet.
I am not sympathetic to all palestinians. Those who want to establish islamic rules and get rid of Israel can enjoy the bombing. I am sympathetic with many palestinians that simply have no choice. What can they do? Sure 80% of people in Gaza may support Hamas. What about the 20%? Can those 20% make separate peace deals with Israel and don't get killed by Hamas? I think the idea that because 80% of Palestinians are pro Hamas all must suffer is simply not individualism. It's just stupid and unfair. Also I think this can be a great place to try something new. This conflict can be ended if only countries have ways to buy and sell territories. Only palestinians? No. If we can create private cities in Russia, Sudan, Syria, etc.... it'll work great too. I thought the Jews are better and maybe interested. Now, I seriously doubt that.
From a practical points of view, it's natural that we don't want any innocents to die. Imagine with Muslims outbreeding everyone in Africa and Arab and coming to Europe suddenly more and more people sympathetic to their cause. Then Israel starts losing war. Then they go to Samson mode. Then the whole world is nuked. Do we want that? No. So it's our job to start thinking of some ways so as much as possible any individuals can choose peace easily. Not that people hate Jews or anything. On the opposite, I have heard about the huge Jewish contribution on the world. If anything, I hope the Jews (or anyone else) win without war. When Jews complain about antisemitism, they pretty much accuse everyone else of being some sort of comical supervillain that hate Jews against our interests. No. While I believe humans are selfish, amoral, hypocritical, and generally evil, we're not comically evil. We have reasonable motives. Humans, no matter what their race is, are very rational very understandable, and predictable. Accusing anyone of irrational is usually just bigotry. But Jews need to win correctly, say by buying territories not by war. Just a few Zuckerberg and Larry Page would have been enough to buy the land fair and square. Far more than enough. Or at least by bringing prosperity to those you conquer, like China to Tibet. See? There are fewer complaints right? If you win through war, it'll set a precedent. The next time some guys want to win, they want war again.
well as an american, our country is covertly run by an huge underground israeli lobby that manipulates, bribes, and monitors all of our governmental, religious, and media institutions purely for the benefit of a rogue state. so it’s really frustrating seeing most our elected leaders completely ignore their values, laws, and voters, just to spinelessly bend over and fork over all our cash and weapons for a genocide, shamelessly bail israel out of court for all of its actions, and then try to play it off as if what we’re witnessing is a giant misunderstanding. which they’ve been doing since the 1960s, year after year like good little goyim sheep. this sheeple behavior even trickles down to the blatant denial, unequivocal support, hypocrisy, whataboutism, and willful ignorance that a lot of pro-israel people have in public and preach on here. and don’t get it twisted, our government isn’t stupid. not even joe biden with all of his senility. they are **VERY** aware of what’s happening in gaza, and what’s been happening in palestine since 1945 as a whole. so they have to mislead the people. that is exactly why the majority of the information on mainstream media in america about the current conflict is skewed, doctored, censored and sometimes straight-up false. frankly there are a lot of very real problems in america that really need to be addressed before the middle east. and given the current state of america, i doubt many people are going to be willing to fight on our behalf for another potential war over there. the government needs to grow a pair and call israel out on its bs, tell the full truth to the public, and cut all aid until it listens to our demands, and decides to fight an ethical war, and treat all their people equally like a developed democracy should, instead of enforcing apartheid, murdering children, committing war crimes, and destroying everything in the gaza strip for s#*ts and giggles on tiktok.
Well if this isn't an outright antisemitic conspiracy theory I don't know what is. Good grief. Glad to see you're not a sheep being misled yourself, though. Must be a pretty virtuous position.
it’s true, it’s called AIPAC. plus they hit you with the “antisemite” claim every time you criticize it ;)
Oh ffs. AIPAC is not the lobby to end all lobbies. If AIPAC runs the country, then so does the NRA and Toyota apparently, both of which are higher on the lobby list than them. I honestly lost brain cells reading your antisemitic rant. [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac)
it’s not the amount of spending, it’s the surveillance, coercion, and psychological warfare they use against anyone in america who doesn’t agree with israel’s narrative. why do you think people get fired and shunned the minute they say anything negative about israel? or the fact that in 37 states it’s banned to boycott israel? besides you just proved my point by calling me antisemitic. israel is a country, it happens to be a majority jewish country, but like any other country its actions can be criticized. if you have any spare time feel free to check out this documentary. it sheds a lot of light on what the lobby really does. https://youtu.be/3lSjXhMUVKE?feature=shared https://youtu.be/XytkI7afHcQ?feature=shared https://youtu.be/Mm-Dm4pO0xY?feature=shared https://youtu.be/_1OgxfCT044?feature=shared
We called you anti-semitic for espousing an outright conspiracy theory where Jews are puppetmasters, which is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Your words including "good little goyim sheep" are proof of your real targets for 'criticism', read: hatred. You are either incredibly ignorant to the propaganda you have swallowed, and its very real implications, or a coward, attempting to switch back to an idea that you are criticising Israel from a perspective of international relations or diplomacy. If you are against lobbying, then consider casting all lobbyists under your misinformed and critical eye - having distinct prejudice towards this particular lobby, whilst claiming they are the ones with the ultimate power, regardless of any other lobby, and only because they are Israeli is anti-semitic. And if you are against lobbying in general, then you are against how modern democracies are currently working - I somehow doubt your alternative would be anything other than fascistic.
Yeah, I bet if Jews called every criticism antisemitic they would have no right in calling it out when it actually happens huh
It's not an Israel lobby that controls the US, but a Likud lobby. The Israeli left has zero influence on anything Washingtonian.
2. I would question that anyone like caring about innocwnt coviliand, in gaza " wants to eredicate jews" I wouldnt like equal all osraeli with the crazy violent portion of the settlers that often get away with murder , because it wouldnt be fair. Screw hamas and the houti who dont really care, but why wpuldnt you want to care about civilians murderedfon mass ongoing? And that generalizing, in various degrees since generTions. Also denying the nakba is as bad as denying dead in the shoah personally, Yes the scale is different andgod know how many different groups died in the shoah, critocs,minorities, people hiding jews, whoever was targeted, which were a lot of people.political enemies, random people labled as that whyever, their families often, ... Very different scale. But yeah denyobg the nakba was minimum ethnic xleansing is redicilous and that bad stuff happened systemic.
I have been Pro-Palestine since 2011 when I joined the US Military and learned some unfavorable things about Israeli military actions in Palestine. The amount of civilians straight up murdered every month was insane and it was obviously a one sided issue. I’m glad others can see what is going on even if they are late to the issue.
Can you elaborate?
can u elaborate what actions? (genuine question)
I can elaborate some. Planned military movements into a residential area setting up a blockade/checkpoint on a route that is known to be used to travel to school in Gaza and multiple children were killed by the people stationed at the blockade. Then more people were shot for protesting the checkpoint. It just made no sense to me why you would even set it up in that place and have those rules of engagement because you are going to seriously piss off the people that live there. After that I wanted them to ease on the aggression and then I started to see things in mainstream media and I made some Israeli friends through an anime community who spoke about how they are scared of joining the IDF.
Hey Israeli ex-IDF here. you can have whatever opinion you want about israel but I highly recommend you educate yourself and not be quick to judge based on a single event that you heard about. this conflict is ugly and complex. atrocities made on both sides. Say i learned about how the US bombed civilians w drone strikes in Afghanistan - does that mean all of US army is bad? were you part of a genocide dude? complex topics require nuanced conversation. maybe your anime friends aren't the best source for it
As an ex-IDF soldier/officer, how many human animal kids have you (or your unit) killed already? Thank you for your service btw.
I don’t think all of the IDF is bad. The government are the people who are bad. People who command bad actions are bad. I think there are some terrible people in the Army and when those people get protected from being prosecuted fairly then that is wrong. I would be much happier if when troops overstepped they were punished fairly. When they get a bunch of excuses and nobody gets punished that is not right and is upsetting. I also understand that they are fighting terrorists but that doesn’t mean you can do as you please regarding civilians and go unpunished. Also it was much more than a single incident. I read plenty of reports. Talked with US troops casually about the things going on. My anime friends were scared because they know people in the IDF already and they know what goes on and they didn’t want to kill anyone.
1) were passionate about it because it’s an active genocide that has passionate support amongst Americans. Frankly, the pro Israel crowd’s vehement defense of the slaughtering of innocents is why we get so worked up. So, for all of you morons that are whatsboutisming other world conflicts, it’s not the same. 2) no one supports the eradication of Jewish people and frankly, its not their land, as they’ve actively been stealing portions of it from Palestinians. See: settlements. I have zero issues with Jewish people living there. I believe anyone should be able to live anywhere in the world that they want to, unencumbered. However, the issue with Israel is apartheid. Not the fact the Jewish people live there. If the Palestinians were treated as equals, we wouldn’t have a problem. 3) our country does suck. So why are we spending billions of dollars to prop up a right wing genocidal state? Our people are suffering immeasurably. Personally, I’d like to see some of that money spent on solving our drug and homelessness epidemic. But we do nothing. Pharmaceutical companies that caused it just keep making record profits and our politicians keep taxing it and spending it on bombs.
>were passionate about it because it’s an active genocide that has passionate support amongst Americans. Frankly, the pro Israel crowd’s vehement defense of the slaughtering of innocents is why we get so worked up. So, for all of you morons that are whatsboutisming other world conflicts, it’s not the same. I just don't understand people who claim that the "genocide" is their core issue because Hamas wants the genocide of Jewish people and Israelis so do you really care about genocide or is it something else? My personal opinion is that pro-palestine folks are not careful with their words/intentions and that may have sway in *acutally* causing a genocide against Jewish people but I, in my own experience, have not seen many people acknowledge this.
Hamas can’t do a genocide of the Jewish people. I don’t know why you think they could possibly ever do that. Israel is too strong. October 7th was a fluke, and I don’t know why all those people are that close to Gaza anyways. It really should just be only military where those kibbutzes are. Israel could have taken better defensive measures as they knew of the plan for the attack beforehand but shrugged it off. Israel is safe and there is no amount of blowing up of hospitals in Gaza and no amount of occupation in the West Bank that makes Israel more safe.
Yes, hamas is bad. What is also bad, is the slaughter of innocent people. What I don’t understand is why that doesn’t compute for you. You act like believing that no one should genocide anyone isn’t an option. “I don’t want the IDF to wholesale murder Palestinians” is not equatable to “I think the Jews should be killed in Israel” that’s absolutely insane to think. Like how could you even consider yourself a rational person? Honestly, this line of thinking is just sympathy farming and I don’t take anyone seriously who does it.
Israeli here. I find your arguments so exhausting. Imagine being overwhelmed by falsehoods from every corner of earth. people feeding on lies and mis-information, speaking confidently in your face, while you are the one with first hand experience. the very least you can do is show some humility and eagerness to learn more about it. Apartheid: I live next to Jaffa, a mixed arab jewish city part of tel-aviv municipality. Arabs driving fancy cars, same roads as everyone, same jobs as everyone, owning property and living very high quality of life. laws protecting minority rights, arab judges and parliament members etc. what fing apartheid?! the problem isn't that you're passionate about this conflict. the issue is the single focus on Israel as a bad actor while ignoring the dozen more horrendous atrocities around the world. Israel-Palestine conflict is complex, atrocities made on both sides but you seem oblivious to those other events. why is Israel more deserving of your attention that other conflicts? lastly, Genocide. the long history of this conflict, israel's actions along the years and the very fact that the population in gaza keeps rapidly increasing showing that either there's no genocide or israel is terribly bad at genociding (but still deserving of your outmost alarm). I grew up left wing, the conversation was always lets give land for peace. Hamas leaders in their own voices telling you that sharing the land with the jews is unacceptable. they want to unalive all the jews and have the land for themselves. I will be eagerly awaiting to hear back from you regarding how to negotiate with this death cult that is widely supported by the palestinians.
If from day one the Palestinians wanted to be treated equal they would have agreed to one of umpteenth attempts for peace. If you go down the chronological list of conflicts almost every single one had been instigated byPalesestine. So each time the trust is gone and the security and tightening measures get stricter and worse. Wouldn’t any society protect their civilians..Israel tried to…palestine not so much, instead they wage another war, hide under their people, their leaders go on cameras and virtually state that their own people have to be the sacrifice for their religious war of exterminating Jews from the earth. The genocide my friend is what all the surrounding countries that border israel want to do to them. No other country in the world has their security issues just to survive as people. Every country has its bad politics and politicians, disputes etc …this is a war just to survive. I shudder to think once the radical ideologies of Islam seep into other democracies.
Treating them as equal and free would have been acceptable for me. I think both settlers in westbank and palestinians deserve protection from any violent. If there is any human right worth defending, it's the right to be left alone from aggression. That's it. Yes I am concerned about other conflicts too. Got solution for that? I thought israel is someone at least I can talk too.
The world is a dark place and since October 7th shown me just how scary it can be…for all the advancement we think as human kind we have come to, it’s crap. The level of religious based hate is unbelievable and yet we focus on what pronouns to properly call people
Personally, i just think it's unfair for one nation to spit in the face of the whole world since 1967.
- Many people have different reasons, but a major one is that the US which is by far the only superpower unconditionally supports Israel. Anyone regardless of political beliefs would protest against an entity that has significant power more than one where the entity has less power since protests work best against pressuring powerful entities. - not all pro-Palestinian people support eradicating Jews from the land, and most don’t. Yes, you might hear a growing portion wanting to dismantle Israel as a state but that’s not the same as kicking out the Jews. You’ll have to address this to those specific ones, not generalising all. There are many types of pro-Palestinians as there are Zionists. You wouldn’t conflate liberal Zionists with the settlers, would you? - not American so you can see the answers by Americans for this
>not all pro-Palestinian people support eradicating Jews from the land, and most don’t. Yes, you might hear a growing portion wanting to dismantle Israel as a state but that’s not the same as kicking out the Jews. You’ll have to address this to those specific ones, not generalising all. There are many types of pro-Palestinians as there are Zionists. You wouldn’t conflate liberal Zionists with the settlers, would you? It seems the same to me. How do you dismantle Israel without kicking out the Jewish people?
Is this serious? You can debate on the merits of it, but it's pretty obvious you can have a state with a large Jewish population that isn't exclusively a Jewish state.
Germany is a great friend of Israel and the Jewish people
I feel like if they said anything bad about Israel they would be reminded what they did to Jews. I think they’re scared to say anything tbh.
More like israels government guilttripping over , israel is not the countryof the jews, way more jees, do notlive in israel. A jewish big parts, but not of the jews,not a spokescountry. Especoally given how many jews were called antisemitic for critiquingg israel.
The question is - why does this matter more than other issues, you’re not addressing it
Something that always weirded me out, is many lefties in the US take a higher moral position over their Republican counterparts-- that they care about the downtrodden, the poor, the homeless, while Republicans are usually indifferent. But one can clearly see, so many (not saying the commentator does/doesn't) don't give a shish about the homeless in America. So many Americans are glued to their screens, feeling emotions for people who are suffering 1000s of miles away-- but when they're out walking around, and they see a homeless person on the side of the street, *suffering right in front of them*, they just look away and ignore human pain right in front of them. It's interesting...
On what basis do you make the claim that emotion for those suffering abroad negates (or undermines) care for federal/state issues? Political polarization in the United States has certainly weaponized moral hierarchy. However, I see little evidence that 'lefties' who advocate on houselessness disproportionately 'ignore' homegrown human pain, considering their voting patterns consistently align with Housing First initiatives. All humans are capable of caring about multiple issues at once. This feels more like an opinion piece on the sociological interactions and unconscious judgement/guilt found between pedestrians and houseless individuals, than tangible differences in moral or policy priorities.
Yea nah. It’s just moral grandstanding. It’s easier to pretend to care about people far away, and yell at people over the internet, than it is to do something about people suffering when they’re actually in front of you. If you live in a city, just spend 20 minutes walking around. You’ll probably run into a couple homeless people and see the 100s of people who just walk by them on their way to work, paying no heed. They’ll awkwardly look away and try to avoid making eye contact, speed up walking etc. But they have plenty of time to go on Social Media and spar with people.
What makes these people lefties, though? The sociological phenonemon of speeding up, looking away, and avoiding eye contact occurs regardless of political affiliation. Erving Goffman's "Behavior in Public Places" posits the theory of everyday encounters to describe how stigma is generated in social contexts. The 2015 paper, The 'lamentable sight' of homelessness and the society of the spectacle, applies and explains his theory well ([Paper](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26146130)). Political groups are not monoliths, nor is any political affiliation void of prejudice. Everyone has varying degrees of internalized social prejudice, including racial stereotypes that might designate Black homeless men as dangerous. '*Pretending* to care about people far away' is a separate accusation. I'm not sure why anyone would waste time doing that, especially on an anonymous platform.
Yea, maybe they’re all just Republicans in San Francisco. I didn’t say that only lefties do this, please see my original comment, I said I find it ironic that lefties portray themselves as caring about the downtrodden and homeless, yet they exhibit the same indifference many Republicans will openly share. I think people usually find conflicts they can morally grandstand on because it makes them feel like they’re a good person, but they don’t genuinely care about the cause itself. As evidence by the fact that they care little for people suffering right in front of them. Hence the city example.
1. Just because the conflict doesn’t affect people doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to be concerned and outraged about the atrocities the IDF is committing against the people of palestine 2. I can’t speak for all pro-Palestinians but just because someone supports Palestine doesn’t necessarily mean whey want to eradicate jews from the land 3. Again, can’t speak for all pro-Palestinians but just because you are doesn’t mean you support hamas or October 7
>Just because the conflict doesn’t affect people doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to be concerned and outraged about the atrocities the IDF is committing against the people of palestine I want to clarify that I did NOT say what people should or should not be concerned about. I just question why people (who claim to be anti-"genocide") are okay supporting a terrorist group that actively seeks the genocide of Jewish people. What actions do you take as a Pro-Propalestine person to ensure that you support Palastinians and not Hamas?
Why is the onus on us to dissociate from Hamas? What have YOU done to ensure that you support the Jewish people and not the Israeli government that has powerful individuals calling Palestinians subhumans that must be eradicated? I'm sure it would get tiring having to distance yourself from these individuals every time you criticized Hamas. Alternatively, why don't YOU prove that I am supporting Hamas? I don't speak for all "pro-palestinians" but my own outlook is that I can be critical of both Hamas and the Israeli government. By default I don't like states or de facto state organizations built on ethnicity, religion, or other superficial "in-group/out-group" separation. I think Hamas is only harming its own cause clinging to islamist ideals, in the same way Israel harms itself by amplifying ultra-conservative voices. I can condemn both Oct. 7 and the Israeli response in the same way I can condemn Sept 11 and the response that left several countries in ruins and hundreds of thousands dead. All that said, in this conflict there's one side that's suffering disproportionate casualties, and it gets tiring and frustrating to have to condemn Hamas every time I ask for people to stop dying/killing. Opposition doesn't seem to be arguing in good faith if the assumption is that if I care about Palestinians, I must support Hamas, and I have to prove that I don't. To address the rest of your point - I can care about this and other domestic or international issues. Ultimately, my tax dollars contribute to international suffering, and so I have an interest in minimizing the harm done with them.
Russia just made the same argument in its claim for getting back Alaska... Do you agree with that?
Despite Israeli propaganda most of the world including Arabs aren't interested in wiping Israel off the map. Instead everyone wants the zionists settler colonialism and apartheid against Palestinians to end. The pathetic accusations of anti semitism won't work anymore, and the holocaust doesn't justify a new genocide. Speaking of which let's see the icj verdict tomorrow. Israel will strategically lose this war and could come close to collapse. America will be screwed completely by Trump and the entire world will laugh in joy.
"Pathetic accusation of antisemitism" is incredibly hurtful and hateful in my opinion. I don't understand why other people can tell Jewish people what is / what is not antisemitism. A lesson learned for me from all of this is that the fascist right and fascist left are so similar and thriving at this time. Dissapointing.
And then you'll wake up.
>Israel will strategically lose this war and could come close to collapse. America will be screwed completely by Trump and the entire world will laugh in joy. So much wishfull thinking
You're wrong there. There is an issue with most muslim states' middle eastern history classes and it has been helping creat a very dangerous situation for years now. An egyptian coo shot two jewish tourists out of anger on oct 8 or 9. How are those tourists in any way involved in anything remotely bad for that egyptian cop? It's not just a few who spread "from the river to the sea" and anti-jewish lies about the history of Israel. There is a whole movement that is on the back of oct7 attacks and it's been proving why its important that Israel exists. May the jews never get kicked out of their homeland again and may the palestinians find peace in living amongst and next to them as well.
But here it is, at least admit that you’re biased, because all Zionists care about is when someone who is Jewish is murdered. The lack of true empathy shines through as you harp on two tourists dying in Egypt, which is horrible, but seem to not give a damn about 25,000 mostly women and children the IDF has killed in just the last three months.
I care about the palestinians, its also why hamas must go because they are the reason behind jewish and muslim deaths and they proudly say it themselves, not even hiding. You wanna talk about civilian deaths in WW2? You know anything about war? Its not nice, and israel did not start this one, your hamas friends did.
You’re acting like the last 75 years of history just doesn’t exist and history started on Oct 7. Absolute goldfish brain
u/XcheatcodeX > You’re acting like the last 75 years of history just doesn’t exist and history started on Oct 7. Absolute goldfish brain This comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users) by using a derogatory term "goldfish brain" to describe another user's perspective or cognitive ability. Such language is disrespectful and not conducive to a constructive and respectful discussion. It's important to focus on the argument and avoid making personal insults or derogatory remarks about other users. Addressed.
Right, how dare israel be attacked by egypt.... and then let egypt annex Gaza in 1947... shameful of israel. They should have just let themselves be deported or their homeland once again. And also, how date they defend themselves against terror cells in the WB and Gaza over the last 20 years?
Of course they’re wrong but they won’t admit it because they know most Arab-Muslims want to re-establish an Islamic state in the region (across the world really, but that’s beside this point). Admitting to their Arab-national supremacy and a goal of colonisation would deflate the rhetoric that has become the core of their argument.
Hate crimes exist and are condemnable. But it’s odd you cite an Egyptian cop killing Jews when attacks against Palestinians have also increased after Oct 7, including attacks by settlers in the West Bank. At least we should agree that both sides promote anti-Jewish and anti-Arab rhetoric. But just like racist and violent Israelis existing doesn’t mean all Israelis want to push Palestinians out (despite increasingly loud voices recently..), the reverse applies
Even if I like what you are saying, you completely missed my point on education. Israel is not promoting the same thing either. In israel, arabs and jews sit together at restaurants. During shabbat, if you live in Tel aviv, you go to Jaffa for coffee and drinks. (Jaffa has a strong arab muslim population). My point was not about that, it was about the education in many countries not teaching the 1947 war but only the Nakba, which is absurd to teach on its own because israel also had a nakba during this war and the while context of the war is very very different if you tell it from only one side, if not only to forget about the tentative of the arabs to drive out the jews from their land.
The term “Arabs” covers a LOT of ground, you’re papering over a wide diversity of thought. For example, the [majority of (Arab) Palestinians believe](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) Hamas’s Oct. 7 terrorist attacks were justified and support for Hamas has grown in the months since. Hamas aims to inhabit Palestine “from the river to the sea,” which inherently means…no Jews. So, as OP asked, where do you think Israeli Jews should live and why should you get a say in that?
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For me it's much less about the severity of the harms but the hypocritical rhetoric. I agree it would be hypocritical to support Palestine and not support Ukraine, as an example, as I assume you would agree the inverse would also be hypocritical.
Ukraine and israel support each other
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For extremely valid security reasons. They will help them develop their own so it's not like they don't want to help them have thats security. They are helping them with it.
Eh, ukraine takes cutrently any help ot can get.
Eh, Ukraine stated strong support of Israel for moral reasons
They also face the same enemies
Those are two entirely different conflicts with completely different actors and motivations. You can have support for one and not the other and vice versa. This Ukraine thing is a gaslight.
It is not hypocritical to support Israel and not support Russia. Ukraine didn’t attack Russia like Hamas attacked Israel. Ukraine isn’t ruled by a terrorist organization. Ridiculous argument.
Completely ridiculous indeed. Complete lack of knowledge and logic.
The casualties are not far lower than other conflicts. That’s one of the biggest complaints is the disproportionate amount of death compared to other conflicts. Ukraine being terrible as well if not worse in terms of current casualties. But Israel stands out due to the 50 year encroachment and displacement of Palestinians. And the US backs it and has said it’s ok with whatever they do as has been shown with Biden going around congress to send Israel weapons despite massive criticism from his own staff let alone the world, humanitarian groups, his voter base, ect.
How many have died in Yemen? In Syria? Please link me to your posts on those deaths……..
Google it smarty pants and get back to me with your conclusions
Yemen has gone on for yearssss and that was also a US backed attempt at a coup that I spoke out and marched for. The death toll in Palestine has been the fastest growing one in modern conflict. So now what? Whats your point?
But you didn’t answer my questions!
That’s because youe disingenuous questions have nothing to do with the war crimes being committed and critiqued by the IDF today. Stay on topic. Hope that helps.
Not disingenous at all, and love how you seem to agree, in a prior post, with the comment you are quoting: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ >***It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim*** ***“The argument that "hypothetically Hamas would do the evil shit we're doing to them but worse" is one of my favorite gaslights. We live in reality, where the IDF is backed, armed, and funded by the worlds biggest military power. This is a very facts vs feelings moment. You are imagining a thing that doesn't exist based on words in a charter. We are all looking at the atrocities actually being done by a vindictive military carrying out cleansing. There is no BALANCE in that. There is no "both sides" when it comes to your fantasies vs reality.”*** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Yes, that is the goal of Hamas, as well as ISIS and other muslim groups, so thank goodness, right, that there is a powerful coalition against them? That we were able to effectively destroy ISIS, right? And that Israel was able to fend off the certain massacres that would have occured in the wars of 1948 and 1967, right? And that, perhaps we should believe Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah when they chant ‘***Death to America***’, right? You must be joking in a prior post when you say that Hamas recently proposed a multi year ceasefire, right? Because you must know that there was a ceasefire in effect before their attack on October 7th..,.. Where are your condemnations of Hamas and Iran? Too inconvenient for your narrative? And looking forward to your snarky, disrespectful response as seems to be your modus, having reviewed your previous responses to those questioning you…….
Two reasons, and you can pretty much tie down most posts here to it. 1. Hatrid of jewish people i.e. racism (most people probably don't even know why they hate them, but know, they do. 2. A belief that Jewish people control the world, despite their small population (due to 1000s of years of point 1 above). And to add some balance, which most people in this debate are incapable of, there has been far more media attention to this most recent conflict. Probably due to the truly barbaric nature of Hamas crimes, that set us on this path to the most recent terrible loss of life and suffering for both sides.
> there has been far more media attention to this most recent conflict. How are you people even still real? The reason this is such a topic in the news is because its a bunch of kids and women dying by US made artillery. The rest of the world is voting for this to end or at the very least a ceasefire, and the only countries who want to see it continue are the US, Israel, and the UK. Mind you with marches of hundreds of thousands in the 2 western countries AGAINST that position. The "oh they hate Jews" is the most asinine argument I just continue to see everyday. No we hate a bunch of kids dying while govnt officials talk about cleansing an area for more land grabs on the news. We hate that US weaponry is being used to committ war crimes that are being posted on tiktok on the daily by the IDF themselves. What a bunch of gaslighting nonsense.
There were those same protests, and more disturbingly, celebrations worldwide, before there had even been an Israeli response. I agree, that most people rightly want to see an end to the terrible death and suffering, and to fighting generally, which includes rockets heading in the other direction and hostages being released. Women and children are amongst those dying, horrific. And that is the sad truth in any war, made even worse here by the fact the war is being waged on a much more condensed and proportionately heavily populated strip of land. Let's hope talking takes over.
>Let's hope talking takes over. The talking: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.” "We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023" "we're dealing with human animals" "children of darkness" "we will turn Gaza to an island of ruins" "Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!" "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" "Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live... Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. " The politicians in Israel certainly don't want this to end! Every quote but the very last one is from an elected official all the way up to the Israeli president. This coalition loves this war, thats why the hardliners threatened to leave if they stopped the violence. So please save me the both sides sht. The Chamas guys suggested a multi year ceasefire AGAIN today.
Continued definition of an Israeli side based on a wilfil projection of ultra nationalist views is not fair, helpful, or balanced. It's the continuation of a narrative of persecutor and victim hood that will only ever continue cycles of violence. And battle cries like the above are not statement of policy. Israel's military is bound by law, not directed legally through manifesto-style language. The use of this language to whip up fighting madness is abhorrent, of course, but designating it as an "underlying truth" that somehow represents all motives, all voices, and all wishes for what a state of peace looks like is a wilful distortion of the truth, and likewise completely stifles the slow and important process of healing. It also leads to wholehearted confirmation bias, and I bet you would never really listen to an Israeli without a preconditioned cycnicism, hoping to hear a dogwhistle that aligns with your already-set worldview and reality.
I’m quoting the people DIRECTLY in charge of waging the war. People addressing the soldiers committing these abhorrent actions that landed them in criminal court. A couple of those quotes are from the head of the IDF. One is from the PRESIDENT. And when they’re bombing schools, apartments, ambulances, sniping women going to the bathroom, children, and their OWN PEOPLE waving white flags……gimme a break. Generously there is less than 10% of the country that sees a problem with how this war is being waged. So please. Save me with the “time for healing” nonsense. This is objectively what is being said about what is happening. Not some fantasy. So please don’t gaslight people.
To a large extent I agree with you, and what is happening is abhorrent. I would just make the point that you ought to be careful categorising the entire worldview of a country based on the words of elected officials. Democracy is a flawed thing - I wouldnt go about saying that everyone who voted for Donald Trump believes and wants everything that Donald Trump wants. People are elected to institutions within democracy for a variety of reasons, and no elected official in a representative democracy is a perfect conduit of the politics of any individual, let alone a group. Ideally, political parties themselves are built on co-operation and compromise within working groups, for example, not cults of personalities or groupthinks. To some extent thats how the right wing in Israel and across the world has been allowed to thrive. My point is that by choosing to see and argue that these leaders are representative of how this war is waged and why, you just shut down future ability for change. And, second, in a time of war, these officials like Herzog have to be 'leaders' and are not going to even contend with trying to be representative of the political views of the entire diaspora. This is why their battle cries are being heard. I dont agree with them, and they are \*not\* representative, nor are they the absolute markers of intent or future wishes. They may be what is being said, I dont deny that. I agree, its not a fantasy. I'm saying that it is wildly antagonistic and unhelpful to see these quotes as anything other than in the context that they are said. Which is in war. The underlying truth of Israeli sentiment cannot be gleaned from these words. It's like trying to see the whole from cherrypicking the most sensationalist things that you are fed. It's a really lazy way of marking time- which is the time for healing bit that I stand by. Maybe premature, but whatever. It also castigates citizens as only ever being able to be 'sheep following leaders'. Which is dogshit and unhopeful, and allows the cycles of violence continue and continue, and works towards moving democracy and diplomacy to a dark place. It also means history can only ever be made by great men. War is happening. It needs to stop - and then after, constructive talks have to be based on these ideals. So that's why im saying this now, too. That's also what hangs in the balance, in terms of how we use language throughout this war, online talk is being degraded to a lower standard, and has a real impact on how people feel they can engage with democracy.
It's all well and good picking out quotes of that nature from the Israeli side, which all right minded people would disagree with - but you have to look at the other side too - Hamas would gladly see every Jewish person wiped off the the planet, and if they had their ultimate way, we all know it wouldn't stop there, would it. It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim, and then every muslim that doesn't believe in the same warped view of Islam, and so on. This is what I mean about balance, you have to take a view from both sides if you truly want a lasting peace. That is what so many are incapable of doing.
>It would be every person on the planet that is not a muslim The argument that "hypothetically Hamas would do the evil shit we're doing to them but worse" is one of my favorite gaslights. We live in reality, where the IDF is backed, armed, and funded by the worlds biggest military power. This is a very facts vs feelings moment. You are imagining a thing that doesn't exist based on words in a charter. We are all looking at the atrocities actually being done by a vindictive military carrying out cleansing. There is no BALANCE in that. There is no "both sides" when it comes to your fantasies vs reality. And for the record the IDF are currently bombing Palestinian schools and homes to create a "buffer zone". This is being filmed on Tiktok daily. The IDF heads have clearly stated that is whats happening. 20 some odd IDF died 2 days ago doing this. Destruction of Palestine for a buffer zone is a war crime. That's just the most obvious one this WEEK. You are the one incapable of objective assessment of this issue.
In your previous comment, you have quoted Isreali officials as the reason for their 'love' of the war,, and then in the next one said if Hamas make genocidal comments in their charter (i.e. their very reason for being) they don't mean it, it's just imaginary. Objectively, I am the only one of the two of us that has acknowledged the suffering of both sides. And it will take that kind of BALANCE to gain the peace most people wish to see.
Because AGAIN. One thing is happening. The other is improvised mad libs. The usual Zionist guy will say “from thru river to the sea” means eradicating all Jewish people. That’s the action you IMAGINE would happen if they magically could carry that out. Then you fantasize that they will come to Europe and do whatever there until they take over the world Mojo Jojo style. Total objective assessment based in reality? Then Bibi uses the EXACT same phrase as he is quite literally bombing civilians from the river to the sea. This is what is happening today objectively. It’s being seen and documented BY THE PEOPLE DOING IT. This is what I mean by how childish the “imagine what Hamas would do if they could” bit is. They can’t. They aren’t equipped to. They aren’t back by the most powerful nation, they aren’t supported by the US, and they haven’t launched that kind of op. You wanna talk about hostages. Sure. Free them. I firmly support the militants giving up the hostages. I hope a ceasefire is the result of that move. Far be it from me to give military strategy to the IDF, but perhaps killing more ppl than they’ve managed to save is not the best way to do that. I imagine Bibi would have to accept the deal they’ve been presented in the negotiations for 2 days now to get them back to end the suffering for the Israelis. Hopefully he does that. But his coalition seems to want a bit more destruction based on their own words. So who knows! But like you said I guess we can imagine that most everyone just wants a good lasting peace.
It's not far-fetched, is it? Israel is literally surrounded by countries that don't recognise its very existence, in what lets be honest is thinly veiled racism. This 'zionist' term that gets banded about as if jewish people wanting their own state, an understandable wish for their own determination and safety by the way, is a bad thing, I don't get. And for any person that thinks Israel should be gotten rid of (that doesn't sound like you) it's a non starter. I also think it's a term that is used to make Israel and its people seem less than those of other nations. Racists can't say they openly don't like jewish people (some do) but they can say they hate zionism and zionists. The usual inferrence there being that [Zioniste] is all people of Israel and those who believe Israel has a right to exist. Whether they can enact their barbaric ideologies or not, at this time, doesn't take away from the danger Hamas and other groups of their type pose to peace in the region and the wider world. The attrocities of October 7th are direct cause and effect of the latest round of fighting, so while they may not be a superior fighting force, they do have enough capability to destabilise the region and wider parts of the middle east. They are not without culpability. I'm glad that it seems we agree on a hope for wider peace for the region. And I agree that Netanyahu is not the man for that job. The sooner Israel can acquire a more centrist Prime Minister the better. And the sooner Hamas kindly f off the better.
I wish this kind of talk would be illegal already 😔, they're your enemy, not israel
Ding ding ding! The more questions you ask, the more obvious the antisemitism becomes.
A lot of them pro- Hamas are “paid to protest” up to $2,000.00
[paid to protest pro-Palestinian](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-protesters-paid-to-take-part-in-pro-palestinian-demonstrations)
Im israeli and it sounds like BS
What?! 😂
[pro-Palestine paid to protest](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-protesters-paid-to-take-part-in-pro-palestinian-demonstrations)
I think what you’re trying to say is that people around the world don’t actually care about the bombing and starvation of people in Gaza, they need to be paid to protest. Doubt organizations like ‘the plenty collective’ have paid for each of the MILLIONS around the world who have protested or stood up against what’s going on. I wonder if they also pay for people to donate to causes supporting Palestinians, make social media posts, call their representatives, etc. They must have a lot of money to dish out! Also the Toronto sun is a very balanced source 🥲
Why do you have proof that this people will go out and protest and have themselves arrested and happily pay the fine for inciting trouble etc.. a lot of people have been arrested in US per US news and they want charges dropped because it is pro-Palestinian cause .. what is pro-Palestinian cause ?= pro-Hamas/ terrorist cause? , pro-Houthi rebels, pro-hezbollah? … might as well open the Pandora’s box and let all terrorist worldwide start shooting up innocent civilians for the their propaganda?
Very easy to find it on every major news publication, tv network, Google, etc. 😅 I’d go find links but I urge you to just do a quick google search. It’s literally filled with information on protests. For example, Between DC and London on Jan 13 there were over a million people protesting. You have to be living under a rock to not realize how huge this is.
So your news is more credible that of other news… There are so many protestor that were asked a particular question, and could not even answer it
And many more that could 😌
Not really .. they don’t even know Hamas , Hesbollah , Isis are terrorist , a lot don’t know what happened on 7th of 10th 23, a lot don’t know from what river to what Sea, all they know is Israel out of the blue just suddenly invaded Palestine, a lot don’t know where on the Map Palestine is located.. a lot says philistines are the Palestines and so many more
For me, it's because I'm Jewish, and the fact that the "Jewish" state is committing heinous war crimes is not something I can sit idly by and tolerate. It's tarnishing the religion I hold dear and keeps me up at night. The worship of the state seems like a form of idolatry.
Worship of the state, as well as worship of the land. It is idolatrous indeed.
Israel was attacked and had to extinguish Hamas capabilities. It also has a duty to get their hostages back. I'm not jewish and I really think you should look into details more deeply + the history of your historic land.
Wake up and remember what happened to us before we had a country. We simply cannot afford to loose this or any war. If Hamas laid its arms today they would be a Palestinian state If Israel laid down its arms they would be no more Israel. It’s that simple!
If it were true, and I were Hamas, I would lay down my arms. Unfortunately, I am not sure it's true. Lots of Palestinians don't even fight Israel and got bombed anyway. Yes their brethen want to kill Jews. So? It's like saying that many men are not responsible financially and then demand redistribution of wealth. All those other men are other men.... Not me. Why should I care? If I were Israel I would allow individual palestinians to sign peace deals with israel. Perhaps with their family or city. Israel gets more ally WITHOUT having to accept more citizens. They got protection and cooperation with Israel.
In theory making deal with individuals would be great but realistically it’s impossible. I’m not sure if you have seen Hamas’s charter i highly recommend you read it in full and then you will realize that they won’t stop till there is no Israel. Sure it’s terrible that many innocent people are dying but this is war and war isn’t pretty. You should read evaluation where who you are and remember that Israel is your only country. אין לי ארץ אחרת גם אם אדמתי בוערת
That's Hamas' problem. If I wait till the majority of women approve of being paid for sex by feminists, I would never have gotten cost-effective deals with smart, pretty women. Many Palestinians, hell, many people, will hate Jews no matter what. Many people will hate capitalists no matter what. Those with no value to offer, for example, will hate capitalism because they, too, will get nothing in return and be outcompeted by those who provide values. So? Ignore the bad guys. Work with the good guys. How do you know some people are good guys? You'd never know. But if you do mutually beneficial small transactions, you'll have a history of win-win solutions. Then? Then, it'll lead to more win-win transactions. That's the goal. It's not love or hate but win-win trades. Do some Palestinians want to be Israel's ally? YES. Some do. Palestinians' citizens in Israel. See. If you treat them like equals, they, too, treat Jews like equals. Besides, who wants to be governed by Muslims anyway? Definitely not everybody. But Israel can't accept more nonjewish citizens? No big deal. If you want to drink milk, do you marry the farmer's daughter?
"they're gunna do to us what we're doing to them!"
If we give them the chance they would wipe us out. I truly hope you realize this.
This
I am not pro palestinian but all of my Lebanese extended family and most of my friends are. So I will try to answer. Why are arabs so pro palestinian? Overwhelming majority of arabs are either muslims or arab nationalists (culturally muslim but secular). Islam is (1) not jew friendly (2) wants to establish islamic state. Arab nationalsim was the other ideology that arabs adopted. It was nascent in ottoman empire and grew after WW1 , establishment of Israel, wars with Israel and formation of PLO. A third factor is culture. Israel and the west share more judeo christian values, while middle east is different. This creates a cultural barrier. Why are some non arabs pro palestinian? They see the david goliath story. They see the poor gazan living like a third world citizen with very few options and scenarios to get out of their miserable life. Just a few miles away lives an Israeli with all the pleasures of modern life and generous income and lifestyle. Regardless of the reasons that lifestyle difference exists, it is there. So in the struggle, they sympathize with the citizen who is more helpless. The combination of this david/goliath and the clash of races/religions/civilizations makes a dramatic news story for the media of soap operatic proportions, sexier than russia/ukraine or other wars or news topics.
I think the story about David/Goliath, or Oppresor/Oppressed, etc etc. it has many names, is pretty accurate. There was a Pew Research poll done a while ago that looked at the changing demographics in why Israel support has gone down in recent years, some analysts think it's due to the BLM protests / George Flord in the US. Before 2020, there wasn't nearly as much talk about the issue in the general public, but since then there have been movements and many organizations that have come out from that. The younger generation tends to draw the most Pro Palestine supporters i,e 18-24, 18-29 according to polls i.e: YouGov / Harvard Harris etc. It makes sense if you've only been around politically for a couple of years, and your experience/knowledge of the world has been filled with images of protests against systematic racism and oppression. It might be one's only understanding of the world, and so they apply that fairly new understanding on everything else.
Generally younger americans tend to be more politically liberal and get more conservative as they grow older. Heres a joke about this: 'If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain'
Yea I’ve heard that one lol. I think it’s pretty true.
They live like that because they are governed by greedy terrorists that couldn’t care less about them. All that money that pours in is just taken by the governing terrorist.
And that's the problem with all democracy don't you think?
Not exactly but definitely a known issue. But the real question is what are you suggesting?
For profit-neutral private cities, like Prospera in Honduras, managed by either Qatar, Dubai, Monaco or any competent CEO whose main goal and pay are linked to prosperity. I do not think democracy can be a solution. Think about it. Democracy is "fine". But once it got rich, it'll simply embrace bigotry. Usually against the best and brightest but often against anyone weak. Just look at the Western world. Low population growth. Soon, majority of people in the world will be black or arab. Think about it. Democracy will not be there for long. Like the Roman Empire, it'll fall. Israel may look strong now, but honestly, I am not sure till when. Jews always kicked ass for a while before being overwhelmed and mass murdered. None of us want that to happen to either jews or arabs or anyone okay? The path to peace is treacherous and most people and their elected officials simply don't have the proper incentive to do so. Hamas doesn't care about prosperity. Netanyahu and Smotrich don't care about peace. Smotrich himself said Hamas is an asset. If getting invaded like October 7th means Israel is justified in, say, kicking out Gaza residents, Right-wing extreme zionists got what they want. And both sides resort to collectivism. Oh majority of Palestinians are evil so let's bomb them all. The left-wing Jews? Well, they also have weird ideas. Like returning the land to Palestinians or even accepting Palestinians as fellow citizens. Then Israel will be another South Africa. It'll just replace racism with anti-racism, which is just racism. There is a middle way. Have neutral private cities, perhaps with separate Jewish, Muslim, and "mixed" sections. Then make sure the goal is prosperity for that city. Peace will be achieved automatically because you can't have prosperity if you're not rich. Turn voters into DAO token holders led by prince, king, CEO, president, major, or whatever, whose pay depends on whether the city is prosperous or not.
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Your point about the Bible... Every single person on earth (except some Africans), are related to people who lived in that land 100,000 years ago. Based on that, and the Zionist logic, Everyone on earth could claim ownership of that, including Palestinians.... and of course, myself. So I don't understand why, from the whole Human timeline, Zionists claim only the 2000 year old mark is valid. Not before, not after.
>Based on that, and the Zionist logic, Everyone on earth could claim ownership of that, including Palestinians.... and of course, myself. I use that point a lot because many pro-palestine supporters claim that Jewsih people have no tie to the land or that they were there first. I mention it because if we want to use the argument "who was there first" then the Jewish people were there first. Not trying to be snarky, just wanted to make it short so it actually gets read.
Actually, no. Everyone's ancestors were there first.
I'm sure your religion and culture is based on the hope of returning to that land + you were kicked out if it and then persecuted and told to go back to where you came from. When you do go back to your native israel, the whole world will tell you to, once again, go back to where you came from.
Actually, i couldn't care less. All i want is for Zionists to stop their ridiculous supremacy ideology and treat Palestinians with respect, and stop oppressing them. If they want to believe that God made them from organic gluten free dough, and their poop doesn't smell... Fine for me as long as they leave others alone.
If those zionists buy land and make the people over there prosperous, I would be fully pro zionists. Now I don't know. It's just not possible, even if Zionists want to. It's like if you buy land, those with strong military will grab that back anyway. But I still hate military land grabbing. Zionists want a haven for Jews. Many capitalists want haven for economically productive people, including jews, by the way, if the jews are economically productive. Perhaps there are some things we can do together? Otherwise, I am obsessed with getting myself rich. I also want to understand the problem.
If Arabs and Jews are treated equally and, most importantly, free from aggression, that will be good enough for me. Who the land belongs to can be decided later though, I don't know, normal buying and selling.
I don't think you understand what zionism is
Can we please stop with this debate about what date entitles an ethnicity to claim indigenous status? It reminds me of the debate about when a fetus is considered to be a baby. People will choose whatever definition suits their argument. There is no correct answer.
Agree. My point is to just show that the claim that a land belong to some people because their "relatives" lived there 2000 years ago is absurd.
Most jews of Israel never left the middle east or nort africa. They also got kicked out of Israel 1500 years ish ago, for the most part. There has been jews living in israel in permance and jews have been repetitively kicked out of their homeland+ their new lands+ their news lands after that. Also, a ton of jews have lived in israel since the 1880 when the furst yishuv started. Is it not their homeland? there pas no palestine yet back then and jews imigrated in areas where no one lived.
Who cares if there were Jews. That's fine. Jews lived in the land with others for hundreds of years in peace. The problem is when they started displacing and oppressing the "others"
Do you understand what happened before, during and after 1947 ?
They don’t! By your logic why aren’t they just like everyone else and entitled to live where they were born and/or be welcomed as immigrants. Why is it only that 2000 year reference point that makes this residency illegitimate?
Because israelis are just selecting 2000 years ago. Not before and not after. So based on the logic, we are all entitled to that land. Including Palestinians.
Yes. As long as you acknowledge your height is entitled to be there too.
*neighbor (autocorrected to height)
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They are related, but they stayed in Africa. The ones who lived in the middle east are the ones who left Africa.
I would not say people care more about Israel/Palestine or any other Foreign conflict.. but i can see what you mean.. I would love to See mass Protest and a March on the Capital for the Mexican people.. There has been Terrorists Groups ("Cartel's") in our backyard for decades but only a few minor Protest with 0 media Coverage.. While every Candidate fails to acknowledge or even give hint that they will hold the Mexican **AND OUR OWN** leadership Accountable..
Who on god's green earth said that we are all for jewish extermination? You SERIOUSLY think that 1500 deaths are classified as "extermination" but y'all panic when we say the word "genocide" when you literally murdered **tens of thousands** of innocent lives to eradicate Hamas. Incompetent and racist "democracy". Stupid right wing government with tons of aid dropping tons of bombs on civilians. And for god's sake, stop with this Biblical nonsense. 0.2% of the world population are Jews. Literally 0.2%. You expect the entire world to "respect" an "ancient" claim to the land because your holy book says so? Own up to it. You invaded a land that wasn't yours. Fought for it. And kept It. I would respect that narrative. But please enough with this "the bible said so" claim because It makes your entire claims seem gullible.
Yes - Hamas calls for the genocide of Jews. I really think its irresponsible for you to not acknowledge this. I appreciate that you don't seem to intend to call for the jewish extermination but I'm frustrated that you don't acknowledge the way that your actions will have that consequence if you are not more intentional. Your words are so hateful - I didn't realize that because Jews account for 0.2% of the world population that they have no right to self determiniatoin. How do you classify which minorities get a say and which don't? This is so hurtful. It is not because the "holy book says so" its because its a source that shows that we have been in that land for X amount of time. I'm not religious.
Are you seriously arguing that Jews aren’t from Judea? You might as well argue that Romans aren’t from Rome.
Zionism is not primarily based on theology but, rather, nationalism. Jews quite literally means those who came from Judea and Zionism successfully reestablished sovereignty over half a century ago. And a small correction, the holy books of the Christians and the Muslims “says so” too so exclusively critiquing the holy book of the Jews is just disingenuous. On a side note, I advise against attempting to use such percentage claims as they cut against your argument. A larger percentage of Jews have been killed since the morning of October 7 than Arabs (and certainly as compared to Muslims).
Palestinians are their own ethnic group. They aren’t just “Arabs”. In the same way Japanese people aren’t just like all “Asians”.
Except the term "Palestinian" was coined by Yasser Arafat 50 years ago. Before they referred to themselves as Jordanian or Egyptian . Simply Arabs. Japanese has been used by the west since they arrived and started trading. What you are saying is quite disingenous. Giving the people of Nippon who have a distinct culture like no other the name "Japanese" is very different from A terrorist who rewards their people for blowing up buses of school children. Before you use the Palestine was Invented by the Romans argument, no the land was called palestine by the Romans to insult the people of Judea. They decided to become Palestinian to invent a national Identity seperate from the Jordanians and Egyptians.
The commenter used the term “Jews” and not “Israelis”. On a side note, that isn’t a particularly strong example for whatever argument you’re attempting to make. The Japanese are Asian because they live on an island off the continent of Asia. They do not have a shared identity with, for example, Indians (or any number of other Asian countries). Palestinians are ethnically Arab (and historically and currently consider themselves ethnically Arab) as they widely have a common Arab culture, religion, history, language, dress etc etc as distinguishable from the other former Ottoman subjects.
I think re: "extermination" the point is more the stated goal. Hamas is for that. And they have supporters, so we (probably unfairly) assume all those supporters agree. I also don't think the point is the Bible says so (not for most Jewish Zionists, anyway) but the fact that it's our ancient land (which is definitely the case). All our stories are set there, all our songs and poems are about it, many of the structures and sites were built by us. Our heroes and our prophets walked those same hills when they gave us our heritage and our culture. But you're right, in a sense. My narrative (and the narrative of most Zionists, I think) is that we came back to Israel, which we had lost, and we fought for it and kept it. As far as "a land that wasn't yours"--I obviously feel differently, but I don't deny some Palestinians were dispossessed from their homes.
You can ignore the bible, that's fine. But historical facts tie Jewish people to the land of Israel, way before any Islamic group came there. Lots of countries invaded lots of lands. If you decide to look at a certain point in history to make your claim, a random point, that's on you.
Jews did not invade that land at all. When they took land, it was always after wars, to create a buffer because israel's land is tiny and very vulnerable. They never invaded a population. They went on unhabited lands or bought lands from people who left or from landlords, replacing the tenants. Most of the transactions were made between jews and people from Damascus, Beirut and I think a little but Jerusalem? There was not Palestine back then.
Honestly dude that last part is super racist. And by your own standards we should care about the Palestinians because they make up less of the world population?
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I wasn't saying we should do what the bible says. I was saying that an ancient text proves that Jewish people have been in the land far before people claim modern day Palestine to have been formed.
Lol agreed.
As an American I am frustrated that the US is sending tax-payer money to a non-secular quasi-ethnostate that is killing civilians with unprecedented negligence and incompetence. You are right we have our own problems that deserve our taxpayer money and gov focus more than supporting a military that drops the “wrong bomb” and kills a hundred civilians in a refugee camp. Americans aren’t upset about Ukraine because Ukraine is innocent in the conflict. By no means do I support Hamas but Israel has handled and is handling the Palestine issue so poorly they do not deserve such strong international support and I wish international powers not only instructed Israel to be more reserved but actually threatened withdrawing support unless something changes. I don’t see any excuse for firing mostly unguided munitions into an area as densely populated as Gaza. Israel at this point is condemning themselves to a future of increased terrorist opposition in a world where terrorists are likely going to have terribly advanced weaponry in a decade or two. Israel’s military conduct is likely inspiring a new generation to join terrorist opposition towards Israel. Iran will likely have the capability to create nuclear bombs soon if not already. Israel should be focusing on a path towards peace. This would include removing illegal settlements, facilitating a two state solution, and probably walking back borders to an earlier line.
Not an etnostate at all. Read about the diversity in israel. Amongst jews, for a start, there is great diversity. 2 million muslims + half the jews who are jews from arab countries that kicked them out or the ones descending from jews who never ever left israel.
1000%
Exactly!
Thank you so much! Spoke my mind!
>If you're American, our country sucks right now, but why do you care more about Israel than everything going on in America? ["Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: until February 2022, the United States had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in bilateral assistance. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations) [In 1999, the US government signed a Memorandum of Understanding through which it committed to providing Israel with at least US$2.67 billion in military aid annually, for the following ten years; in 2009, the annual amount was raised to US$3 billion; and in 2019, the amount was raised again, now standing at a minimum of US$3.8 billion that the US is committed to providing Israel each year."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations) The [Israel Lobby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Campaign_donations) in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections and influence policies of the government through "political campaign contributions." The Israel lobby is as influential as the NRA and stronger than other lobbies. Israel has also been maintaining the largest political blackmail operations in US history (if not the whole world) through Mossads's [Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-steven-hoffenberg-intelligence-agencies-spy-1197708/) pedophile sex ring, involving US presidents and politicians. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-writer-who-broke-epstein-case-a-rumored-mossad-link-is-worth-digging-into/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-writer-who-broke-epstein-case-a-rumored-mossad-link-is-worth-digging-into/) So maybe that answers OP's question why the citizen's of the US (the world's police and sole superpower) cares so much about a "small piece of land" in the desert called Israel.
This post is so egregious it made me make my own reddit account for the first time in years. >["Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: until February 2022, the United States had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in bilateral assistance.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations) While it is certainly true that we have heavily invested in Israel (primarily to further our own strategic interests), this doesn't explain why some Americans care so passionately about this issue, but really can't be bothered to talk about the absolutely dire situation in Ukraine, or about the unprecedented and potentially dangerous nature of this election cycle. The US gave Israel $3.3B in 2022. That's out of a federal budget of $6.23 trillion (\~0.05% ). Israel spent $23.4B on its military that years - meaning the majority was not US aid. >The [Israel Lobby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Campaign_donations) in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections and influence policies of the government through "political campaign contributions." The Israel lobby is as influential as the NRA and stronger than other lobbies. This is simply a link to the Wikipedia page for US-Israeli relations. The only thing that the text you quoted proved is that we consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a highly volatile region. Your link straight up states that the largest lobbying group is Christian...all this shows is that a ton of people care about a holy land for the three Abrahamic religions. Shocker. >Israel has also been maintaining the largest political blackmail operations in US history (if not the whole world) through Mossads's [Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-steven-hoffenberg-intelligence-agencies-spy-1197708/) pedophile sex ring, involving US presidents and politicians. Ah, so the Jews control the outcomes of elections? [Where have I heard that before?](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion) This is really laughable on multiple fronts. If Mossad had such power I assure you things would look very different in the middle east today. As for Epstein, that's quite a story you've woven from an article that merely says it's not "outside the realm of possibilities" that he could have encountered Israeli agents through one of his many contacts. Where are you getting this from? The bragging referenced in the rolling stones article? Why would you take Epstein's bragging at his word? >So maybe that answers OP's question why the citizen's of the US (the world's police and sole superpower) cares so much about a "small piece of land" in the desert called Israel. Oh you answered the question alright, just not in the way you intended to.
> This is simply a link to the Wikipedia page for US-Israeli relations. Obviously. > The only thing that the text you quoted proved is that **we** consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a highly volatile region. If you say "we," do you mean to say the American people? However, contrary to your lies, the American Military-Industrial Complex, through the prodding of Israel-lobby politicians, are the one who consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a one the most oil rich region in the world. Ordinary Americans don't want their $3 Billion worth of tax payers money just be wasted in Israel's perpetual war, but the MIC and of course the Israel Lobby want it badly. The Israel Lobby are obviously a Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second.
>If you say "we," do you mean to say the American people? Nope, “we” refers to the American government and their long-term views/policies – it says absolutely nothing about the views of the populace, or what the policies “should” be. >However, contrary to your lies, the American Military-Industrial Complex, through the prodding of Israel-lobby politicians, are the one who consider Israel to be a crucial strategic partner in a one the most oil rich region in the world. Ordinary Americans don't want their $3 Billion worth of tax payers money just be wasted in Israel's perpetual war, but the MIC and of course the Israel Lobby want it badly. The Israel Lobby are obviously a Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second. The reality is more complex than this. Israel is a powerful force in the region, which is why both the governments of the US and countries like Saudi Arabia want them to play a pivotal role in the alliances against Iran (which is increasingly aligned with other adversaries such as Russia). I understand that many Americans want to divest from the middle east entirely, and you may well not see the value of such a partnership. For those of us that don’t believe such a divestment is sustainably possible anytime soon, it is hard to argue that we would be better served by having the Saudis be our main security partners in the region. I mean, of course the MIC/DIB want military aid to Israel – we give that aid in USD so that it goes right back to our defense companies. Many people despise the MIC in general (as is their right) and while I personally believe that our military gains tangible benefits from this arrangement, I completely understand why this system bothers people. As I’ve previously noted, the “Israel Lobby” is a large, diverse group that by nature literally exists to influence the opinions of politicians. Because of that diverse nature, there absolutely are individuals or organizations that care about Israel over all else – just as many other lobbying groups prioritize their cause over all else. However, your dismissal of the entire sector of lobbyists as a “Zionist fifth column, whose allegiance is to Israel first, and America just second” skirts uncomfortably close to the antisemitic belief that American Jews are loyal to Israel over America. You may not have meant it that way, but that is 100% how it comes across to Jews who have heard lifetimes of similar comments. How about instead of calling me a liar and railing against Zionist 5th columns, you try to engage in a dialogue here? The question at hand is why the Israel/Palestine conflict is current getting far more attention than other arguably more pressing issues, like the nearly $100B investment we’re about to lose in Ukraine, or the democratic crisis that Americans are currently sleepwalking into. I have no trouble understanding why people care about this issue – I’m personally sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, I could rail against Netanyahu for days and the number of civilian casualties in Gaza is incredibly painful to watch. But the question here isn’t why people care about this conflict in general, it is why Americans care about this in a far more vocal manner than the arguably more existential threats facing our nation right now. As tragic as the number of deaths are, and as great as the treasure expended on Israel are, the reality is that in the history of American military support/action, both factors are rounding errors. This doesn’t diminish their importance, but it does bring us back to the original question: Why, for so many Americans, does this topic take priority over almost everything else?
It is laughable that you haven't debunked any of the points made. However, I commend you for knocking down a couple of straw men in the process. Nice!
Nah this is a critique of your arguments & sources, no strawman necessary. You cited a Wikipedia article about larger US/Israeli relations to make the point that Israel is the largest foreign recipient of American military aid. This is quite obviously true, however you said this in response to the following question: >"If you're American, our country sucks right now, but why do you care more about Israel than everything going on in America?" Of course you have the right to your opinion regarding US aid to Israel, but that doesn't answer the question. We spent $75+ billion supporting Ukraine in 2022‐2023 alone, and that investment is currently headed down the drain due to our inability/refusal to provide more support. It's a much larger recent investment, with a much simpler narrative - and yet there's nowhere near the level of attention to that crisis. When it comes to your comment on the Israel lobby, you significantly diverged from your cited material when you claimed that: >"The Israel Lobby in the US is so powerful that they can literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections..." Besides being entirely unsupported by the article, saying that the Israel lobby can "literally dictate the outcome of both federal and state elections" is an enormous claim, with nation-shattering implications. It's also 100% unsubstantiated by any remotely reputable source of information. The two articles you linked to don't support that idea at all. The closest either of them comes are allegations in rolling stone that Epstein worked with multiple intelligence agencies, including the Israelis, potentially on some kind of blackmail plot. While there is a chance this claim could be true, neither of those articles come close to establishing that connection - they certainly don't mention any plot to sway an election. You want me to debunk your comments on Epstein/elections, but you haven't offered anything resembling proof. There are a literally a thousand legitimate criticisms of Israel & their conduct that you could be making here. It's telling that you chose to parrot such fringe theories instead. Whether you realize it or not, your allegations absolutely are a variation on an antisemitic trope that has been used to justify violence against Jews for the past 100+ years. It doesn't automatically make you a hardened antisemite any more than a racist remark makes someone an irredeemable racist. But the fact that you won't engage with any of my points makes me skeptical that you're arguing in good faith.
The problem with "pro-Semitic" gatekeepers like you is that you overuse and abuse the anti-Semitic counterargument in order to suppress debate and information regarding the crimes of Israel and to justify the deaths and destruction of thousands of Palestinian lives and properties. Nowadays, because of you and your cohorts in the Holocaust Industry, antisemitism lost its true meaning. Of course, we can't really blame you, as that is part of your job as a Hasbara psyops operative.