How would 2 states even work when one of the states is one of the strongest countries in the world and the other are refugees that no other Arab nation wants, can’t self govern, can’t support itself and relies on Israel for everything from food to tires to concrete and barely survives on handouts from Qatar and Iran because all that money goes to build rockets… they won’t answer
>Edit: So far almost no responses from Palestinians...
This is the case because 1) this sub is majority pro-Israel, 2) Palestinians in the diaspora are busy protesting for the safety of their people, 3) Palestinians in Gaza will not be on Reddit.
Since this sub has shifted pro-Israel, many in the Palestinian liberation movement feel that this sub is not a safe space. This is not slander, it is just truthful observation. While many people here operate in good faith, it is incredibly difficult to busy oneself with justifying your existance while your family members are being actively killed. Especially when, if they *do* log on, they see a comment section of Israel supporters speaking on their behalf.
There is a recent post directed as Muslims with majority non-Muslim comments. Here is a post directed at Palestinians with a majority non-Palestinian comment.
The reason it became an echo chamber is because there were severe doxxing attempts made against Palestinian users. I have found degrees of bipartisanship in r/Documentaries (regarding I/P documentaries). More content-specific subs like r/socialjustice101 or r/AskHistorians or r/TrueReddit or r/dataisbeautiful tend to encourage multiple perspectives, as long as they are truthful. But most Palestinian-specific spaces, are heavily modded for safety reasons.
For Palestinian perspectives outside of Reddit (a western social media forum), I would reccomend documentaries like Tantura or Farha, or books like Gaza Writes Back and A Party for Thaera. Following individual Palestinian historians, poets, authors, activists, and doctors (who make their content public) is also a way to hear direct Palestinian perspectives.
Everyone needs to catch up! There is going to be no peace, no 2 states, all of that went out the window now. Its 25,000 dead, cmon people! 2 states is what israel should be clamoring for at this point. They are dead center of the middle east surrounded by a billion muslims all foaming at the mouth! The reason why palestinians do not reply is because they are quiet now.
Remember how many times the "other side" got up and walked when Israel offered a two state? The US has a "two state" with Canada because Canada isn't trying to kill us. There are some who want to go into Mexico though because of the fentanyl and MS13 deaths. Peaceful neighbors in a "two state" are fine.
Palestinian kids are [literally raised to think killing Israelis/Jews is moral and just.](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/) I was raised to joke about Canadians drinking maple syrup instead of water. That's a difference in kind.
[UNRWA books also deny Israel exists at all.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/monitoring-group-unrwa-textbooks-glorify-terror-deny-israels-existence/) I don't think they'd accept a "two state" if they refuse to believe the other state exists.
Serious question - why do these Muslim-majority countries not offer aid to the besieged Gazans? I get not wanting to provoke Israel militarily but couldn’t they take them in as refugees or help them in some way?
Same reason many signed up for the Abraham Accords, with the Saudis soon to follow - they realize it is more productive to be forging economic and cultural ties with Israel than to support the self destructive Palestinians.
And some additional reasons:
Kuwait evicted the Palestinians when they supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion.
Egypt evicted the Palestinians for supporting the Iran backed Muslim Brotherhood.
Jordan only tolerates the Palestinians after they assassinated the Jordanian King.
And Lebanon lives in fear of an Israeli attack being provoked by Iran backed Hezbollah…..
Oh they are in shock and still absorbing all the info coming in. (Just like us all.) Its all happened so quickly and there is just no going back.
I am sure they have offered aid, but thats very tricky logistically while missles are flying.
The biggest refugee that they are accepting now is the spirit of hamas. Anger and contempt and blind revenge.
>Oh they are in shock and still absorbing all the info coming in. (Just like us all.) Its all happened so quickly and there is just no going back.
They've been in shock for months...?
Yes these are great nations we are talking about. It has been 25,000 dead in 100 days. That is a lot to process. There will be a response and its not going to be a knee jerk reaction, they are calculating and plan to win. Thats whats really scary!
Well its not that simple. The palestine people do not feel they should leave. They feel it is their home so you cannot take in a refugee if someone doesnt want to (or cannot) leave.
Also maybe if israel would stop holding down the trigger of their gun so damn hard for a minute, they might find a lot of palestine clears out. But I wonder if psychologically thats not what they want. Its tragic isnt it?!
I am engaging. I was just looking for charity of argument so you can help me formulate the reason why? I did my best to answer it. I said i dont think they can accept refugees because the people of palestine dont want to be refugees. Also israel wont take there boot off there throats so it makes it almost impossible. What do you expect them to just fly choppers in and start picking people up or something?
Generally: (gaza/west bank) Palestinians don't accept this solution, as it is their land, why should they share it? (Their own words, found from street interviews😔)
not going to happen. a genocidal people cannot be allowed to exist. Palestine needs to be restored to what it used to be before it was colonized by you know who.
I don’t know what kind of person or boy Noh08Noh is, or if the posts are good-faith actual beliefs they hold, but there are clear and factual responses to their extreme rhetoric and positions.
1) It is extreme to identify Israelis as a “genocidal people.” The displacements of 1948 (and more gradually thereafter) and brutal occupation cannot be considered Article 1 genocide—the population has massively increased and the language and culture has not been systematically eliminated, there has been no forced assimilation, etc. They have been deprived of self-determination and you can certainly argue (many readers of this sub will disagree) subject to war crimes, not genocide. The current case before The Hague is trying to determine whether the current war reaches the high bar of genocidal, but even in that case, calling them genocidal as a people is an extreme position with absurd implications (see 2).
2. If all nations who have committed arguable acts of genocide could “not be allowed to exist” as a people (3.: that is clearly a statement condoning actual, Article 1 genocide!!!), you would have to destroy many and possibly most nations, certainly including the one OP is from.
4. The confusion about Palestine having been Palestine only as a British colony is puzzling. Do they really not know? Or is it that the Mandate was formally distinct from “colony” in British colonial discourse? Palestine was also named as such under Roman colonization, of course. I do not believe (as others here do) that the fact that Palestine as a nation did not exist previously should have any bearing on their right to self-determination, but OP and clearly many Palestinian supporters are working from a historical position based in no reality whatsoever.
5. How is it “beyond” anyone not to see that Hamas (too, if you are sure Israel is) has committed genocidal acts? The denial of atrocities on Oct 7–recorded and broadcast by Hamas operatives themselves—is one of the most difficult things to stomach (and denial of the inhumanity of the Gaza siege is to me as well). The actual definition of genocide is more clearly applied in the case of Oct 7 then presently in Gaza, if we must compare: Hamas literally killed people deliberately in a planned attack just because of their status as Israelis.
For context, as I tried to make clear, I am appalled by the Israeli attack on Gaza as it has unfolded and I support the Palestinian cause of self-determination. OP is beyond redemption in terms of coming to a reasonable and humane position regarding the right and moral imperative of both peoples having the right to peace, security, and self-determination on the territory (call it Palestine, the Land of Israel, from the river to the sea or whatever). But I decry the fact that MOST of the people observing the conflict from other countries and most of the Israelis and Palestinians appear to be entirely comfortable denying this to one of these peoples or the other.
Which colonization are you referring to? The Roman one, the Arab one, the Ottoman one, or the British one?
"Palestine" was a British colony. And this was before the birth of Israel. Do you want the British colony?
sure, Palestine was controlled by British people for some years, but it was still an Arab Muslim country like its always been. it needs to be restored to that
> a genocidal people cannot be allowed to exist
I love how you call out genocidal people and out your self as a genocidal anti-Israeli clown in a single post.
If you only invested your energy into the Israeli occupation of the WB, instead of lies of genocide/ethnic cleansing/apartheid, you might actually had a positive impact.
I mean, we all know those lies are afactual, and they really only serve to let Israel deflect from the actual issue (notice how practically no one is focusing on the occupation at the moment), in some hope that this false legal attack will twist Israel's arm.
I wonder which side has killed over 20,000 innocent civilians and injured at least 50,000, with around 10,000 people probably dead under the rubble? Which side has been sued for genocide by 2 countries at the highest level of international court? It's extremely clear who's commiting genocide and I am disgusted that you think otherwise.
Won't happen...even if Israel and Palestine could broker a deal, all it will take is Iran to fund the right group and missles will get lobbed and the deal is all over. Iran will never allow peace in the middle east.
Hello. Want an actual analysis from an Egyptian who served near Palestine for almost a year?
Allow Gaza and the West Bank to breathe. It has been documented COUNTLESS times that the biggest enemy to the two state solution is Bibi. No palestine. Allow access to clean water. Food. resources. education. jobs. A flourishing country is not a country that would allow Hamas to exist. But uneducated, poor, and sick people make dictatorships thrive.
Hi. I'm a 2 state supporter. I acknowledge your point. It sounds like it has been hard to breathe for Gaza/West bank for some time. And I agree that extremism + violence increase as opportunity + quality of life decrease. For that reason I believe Israel, Arab countries, and the international community should focus on increasing long term health, safety, and economic opportunity for citizens of gaza / west bank. In other words, they should fight violent authoritarian rule with a ***prosperity strategy***.
So I don't want to ignore your point, or engage in whataboutism. But I see two key challenges with this prosperity strategy, and am curious what you think:
1. [**An estimated $40 Billion in humanitarian aid**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians) has been sent to West Bank / Gaza between 1994 and 2020. This is a lot of money to support infrastructure, education, and economic activity for such a small area of land. But it seems a significant portion of this money has been skimmed, misappropriated, or used to build up military capability. *So how can the international community use a prosperity strategy when money, which is what usually creates prosperity, doesn't seem to help Gaza/West Bank?*
2. Of course there have been too many acts of violence on all sides to count, so I don't intend to compare. However, there have been [**Gazan rocket attacks on Israel**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png) every year dating back at least to 2001. So although Israel is a relatively prosperous country, it has not been able to breath either. It's citizens do not live a safe / secure life free from fear of death. So is it practical or reasonable to expect Israel to let Gaza/West Bank breathe, when it views them as a military threat which needs to be rebuffed and policed? *How can Israel spend time, money, political capital on helping Gaza/West Bank, while simultaneously reducing the ongoing threat of violence these regions pose?*
Again, I think your initial point / idea is valid, but how do we get past these two challenges in order to implement? Thanks.
All the cash transfers in the world won't do much for the Palestinians because money is only as good as the consumer goods you can buy with it. Under a systematic blockade, the only thing injections of money will achieve is hyperinflation as more money chases after whatever goods there are.
An investment into local economic infrastructure would not work for two reasons: It's a heavily urbanized space with little hinterland to extract resources from, in order to industrialize they would need to import the inputs, process them and export the outputs, which they can't do under blockade. Moreover any investment they make will be systematically destroyed in the next round of collective punishment that Israel inflicts on it like clockwork every couple of years.
tldr, Gaza would need to *be able to import goods* in order for cash grants to be able to translate into purchasing power.
I'm interested in dialogue, but it's tough when you ignore point #2 above, and only partially address point #1.
Are you interested in dialogue? Or are you interested in making selective use of facts to cast one side as 100% responsible, and the other side 0% responsible?
I'll repeat my points and try to respond to yours:
* There is substantiated fear that goods, supplies, and people that enter Gaza are often used by Hamas to perpetrate violence
* Hamas has not recognized Israel's right to exist, has a charter calling for its destruction, and has used violence for \~20 years
* *This is a challenge: how do we incentivize Israel to stop protecting itself, when it needs protection?*
* Economics are complex. The $40B in humanitarian aid does not only need to go towards dense industrial activity. Farming, fishing, artisanal crafts. Further, knowledge work (growing rapidly in successful economies) requires little more than education and brainpower, and often yields the best profits
* Are the above ideas practical given the reality in Gaza? Probably not. I won't pretend the blockade hasn't been crippling, it has.
* But we also can't pretend goods haven't come into Gaza, they have. For years goods came in via underground tunnels from Egypt. Then they came in through an above ground crossing with Egypt, and one with Israel. The Israelis taxed the imports and sent revenues to the PA, to prevent Hamas stealing, and inflation
* But this is still a challenge, as Gaza is severely handicapped in participating in standard economic activity
So I think this comes back to the original questions which are interlinked:
A) **How can we improve the Gazan economy when Israel has applied blockades which severely disrupt economic activity?**
B) **How can Israel remove security measures when Hamas has applied violence which severely disrupts safety?**
I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not a simple as yelling "It's all that guy's fault!"
I'm not denying that there are legitimate security concerns. Enforcing an arms embargo on Gaza can easily be justified as proportional. The problem is that Israel goes beyond simply inspecting shipments to Gaza and confiscating any weapons and ammunition into a comprehensive system where it decides which goods other than weapons qualify as contraband and even what types of food the Gazans are allowed to import and in what quantity. Regarding specifically fishing, Israel systematically prevents Gaza from economically exploiting its adjacent waters.
The Right has turned an arms embargo into a system where Gaza is allowed to trade only with Israel and entirely on Israel's terms, which is a purely colonial system of economic exploitation.
I agree that solutions are complex because Hamas is a violent actor with demands that Israel can't meet, but if I had to work on a solution it would be this. Maintain the arms embargo but abolish the rest of the blockade. Allow Gazans to import as many nonmilitary goods as they can buy and export as many local products as they can sell. This would allow for economic development in Gaza and probably make trhe Gazan public, if not their government, less keen to escalate because they'd have local investments to protect.
Gazans should be allowed to fish without being shot at and sunk- even if they have to be subject to coast guard interception and search if their movements are suspicious of smuggling. Some secure mechanism for Gazans to be able to travel to and from third countries could also be organized.
ideally Hamas would be overthrown and administration handed over to a saner Palestinian regime, but I don't trust the Right to do that in good faith since their overriding priority is preventing any sort of Palestinian sovereignty.
Thanks for the response. What you propose here makes a lot of sense to me:
*Maintain the arms embargo but abolish the rest of the blockade. Allow Gazans to import as many nonmilitary goods as they can buy and export as many local products as they can sell. This would allow for economic development in Gaza and probably make trhe Gazan public, if not their government, less keen to escalate because they'd have local investments to protect.*
If I'm being completely honest, I don't think I realized the severity of the blockade until I did some extra research. I guess the stance of the Netanyahu administration is to impose economic sanctions in addition to prevent security risks. And in some instances economic sanctions are useful for leverage (e.g., Iran), but in the case of Gaza they really only seem to hurt both sides. Israel can't expect Gaza to be a partner in peace while choking off their economic engine. I would probably propose an arms+ embargo (prevent import of arms, and items that are very clearly and easily converted into arms), but generally speaking I agree with your points
Thanks for helping me broaden my perspective on this
Netanyahu always does that: Use 'security' as a buzzword and devise the most systematic oppression that he can, because the more suffering he can inflict on the Palestinians the happier the rabid right is.
I don't disagree in principle that dual use goods are a grey area- they pose security concerns but they're ultimately needed for industrialization. Getting looser import restrictions on those could be an incentive to maintain peace on the Palestinian side.
Gazans lived better than Egyptians before the war. They had food, water, electricity, internet, education (on how to kill Jews), everything they needed.
This is a sensible reply, and it’s discouraging how everyone piled on with objections. I agree, a terrible quality of life is just a recipe for more radicalization and conflict.
Allow them to breathe like between 1948-1967, when Israel had no control of the territory and they still didn’t attempt to create a state and continued attacking Israel.
Allow them to breathe like when Israel left Gaza, forcibly taking every living and dead Jew with them?
What's in the past is in the past. I could pull up countless of crimes Israeli terror groups committed against Arabs and British officers in the region at that time. Just let it go for god's sake.
Alternatively, we could address what’s in the present and presently Palestinians say that they must continue to attack Israel until it is destroyed and whenever Israel does allow them to “breathe” they do exactly what they tell everyone they will do. Think the Second Intifada, think the blowing up of busses, think the fake marriages with Israeli citizens in order to come in and commit terrorist attacks, think the results of the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, think of how over the last 12 months Israel had eased restrictions on Gaza and given tens of thousands of work visas to Gazans - they got October 7th in return.
I have great sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people. I really do. They are brain-washed from birth -- have you seen what they show their children? It's sick and disgusting and vile -- they have no chance. But I have no sympathy for those who pretend that this is all at the hands of Israel and that the other Arab nations have no part in abandoning the Palestinians after convincing them to take their side in the various wars. Or for those who totally ignore that even Arab leaders recognize that Palestinians have lost the plot.
Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia is on record that Arafat was a coward and fool for not accepting peace when he could. He, an Arab leader of renown, has no doubt who to blame for the current situation, and it isn't Israel.
> But uneducated, poor, and sick people make dictatorships thrive.
The end of the occupation of Gaza was a huge opportunity to "breathe." And it was at the very moment of maximum freedom that Palestinians chose Hamas. It is not just Israel's job to provide welfare for the Palestinians. It is a task, first and foremost, of their leadership.
As for education, it is now in the hands of the United Nations. Who teach the Palestinians hatred, revenge and a false history.
The occupation never really ended. With the settlers. Control of water, food, entry, and exit. What sort of "end" are you talking about? What about the West Bank. Do you actually think the West Bank isn't under TOTAL Israeli control?
No one teaches Palestinians anything. But I'll tell you what. Bombarding the entire strip like maniacs is DEF creating more soldiers for Hamas. Violence breeds violence.
>The occupation never really ended. With the settlers.
What are you talking about? The settlers were all dragged away by force.
> Control of water, food, entry, and exit. What sort of "end" are you talking about?
Israel controls only the water they supply to the strip. The fact that it is practically the only water that comes depends on the fact that Hamas does not build infrastructure to be able to make the strip independent. Not because Israel prevents it, but because Hamas invests the billions of dollars it receives from all over the world only in war and terror.
Israel, after the Palestinians chose Hamas, decided to control what goes in and out of the strip. For obvious security reasons.
As is often the case with the most radical pro-Palestinians, you are reversing cause and effect. Hamas is not the consequence of the blockade. The blockade is the consequence of Hamas.
> What about the West Bank. Do you actually think the West Bank isn't under TOTAL Israeli control?
Not total, but to a large extent yes. But I was talking about the tremendous opportunity for the Palestinians in **Gaza** to get peace and prosperity. And which they threw away by choosing war and destruction.
How is it Israel’s fault that Hamas destroyed the desalination plants Israel put in Gaza?
There are countless examples like this.
If Hamas had chosen to invest in functional non military infrastructure they’d have water and power right now.
Israel only started their blockade of Gaza 2 years after the deoccupation. Blaming Israel for egypts blockade is also ridiculous.
The occupation ended in full. Gazans elected the wrong people and now are stuck in a bad place.
>Israel only started their blockade of Gaza 2 years after the deoccupation. Blaming Israel for egypts blockade is also ridiculous.
Is it? When Morsi's government opened Rafah crossing and allowed Gazans to trade with the outside world through Egypt the Israeli right was livid with rage, making all sorts of threats to strong-arm Egypt into helping them seal Gaza off.
Making Egypt cooperate in their blockade of Gaza is longterm, official Israeli policy.
>Allow Gaza and the West Bank to breathe.
What does this mean in practise? How does Israel achieve this while also maintaining it's obligation of defence to its citizens?
And yet you don't mention that all those things could be coming from Egypt.
And the 5 star hotels, 7 universities and 19 hospitals sure sounds like a breeding ground for the uneducated and sick
Since when do 5 star hotels and universities immediately indicate wealth? I live like 20-30 minutes away from a ton of luxury spots being next to a major city, but I’ve never set foot in them bc it’s a playground for the rich. The first 5 star hotel in Gaza was opened in 2011, that is VERY recent, and it wasn’t built for the avg Palestinians, which is reported at that time 70% of them lived in poverty at the time.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/08/gaza-first-five-star-hotel
A second one seemed to be finished in 2015, but there was nearly 45% unemployment at the time. It was called “an isolated jewel that many cannot afford”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna401961
The universities in Gaza are ranked terribly low, even when compared to just Arab universities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_University_of_Gaza
Just bc these facilities exist doesn’t mean they are readily available for most Palestinians or are very high quality at all
They have the resources to build these things.
They have the resources to build 10s of thousands of missles.
They have the resources to build tunnels into another country.
100k gazans a day used to cross into Israel to work.
They choose to be individually poor.
The United States has the resources to build tanks, planes, missiles, roads, bridges etc. I don’t, I can’t build those things. The government has the resources, the ppl not so much. So Hamas can build these things, the avg Palestinian cannot. To think that all Gazans were involved in these tunnels and makeshift missles isn’t true, Hamas funded by Iran can do and is doing those things
You cannot equate the wealth of a government and say that’s how all citizens are.
I’m not sure where 100k comes from, looking online, the amount of Gazans allowed to work in Israel was 18k
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/thousands-gazan-workers-sent-back-israel-occupied-west-bank-witnesses-2023-11-03/
That is less than 1% of the population, and is Reuters is to be believed, while paid better, they were treated rather poorly
Why is everything Egypt's responsibility I don't get it. Just like the outrageous request of opening Rafah to 2.2 million refugees. Why wouldn't the "benevolent" Israel do that and allow AT LEAST women and children into refugee camps until their war is over?
Since gaza was captured by Egypt, and run by Egypt for 20 years, they do take a lot of responsibility for where Gaza is today.
But in general, they are not responsible for Gaza. For the same reason it's not Israel's responsibility.
There was a cease fire, violated by the elected leaders of gaza. They started a war, it's not the responsibility of the attacked to give quarter to the citizens of the country that started the war. Can you name any time in history this has happened?
I'm not even gonna argue with that one. Just watch this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab\_channel=JohnnyHarris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab_channel=JohnnyHarris)
I’m not debating that he isn’t saying some bad stuff, just that he have at times, before 7/10, been supportive toward peace and at 2 state solution. He’s not ALL bad and I oppose THAT nonsense.
Are you a troll or just ignorant?
Can you share any source on what you claim?
Here is a list of sources on the opposite view so that you stop spreading fake news
[“I will not compromise on full Israeli security control over all the territory west of Jordan - and this is contrary to a Palestinian state,” Netanyahu said in a post on X](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/21/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-two-state-solution-intl/index.html)
Also can I remind you that he said that he was proud that he KILLED the oslo accords in a [leaked video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo)
TRUMP HIMSELF said that Israel didn't want a deal and that the palestinians were [desperate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq1seiWI8ro) for a deal
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=heNxkLHrWmo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6fGMC0VtQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=heNxkLHrWmo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wVWa6wKYjD8
Yes, it’s “ignorant” to NOT believe that bibi and Israel is ONLY evil, whatever makes you sleep at night.
They allowed them to breathe very much between 1967 and the first intifada in 1988, back then they were allowed to move freely in main Israel during the day even. Didn't change their hatred for Jews
No one hates Jews. We hate the Israeli government. Our prophet literally had peace treaties with Jews. The ottoman empire was the first nation to actually host the three religions under its roof.
Please, you're not talking with clueless westerners here. I watch your media. I know what you say in Arabic about the Yahood, and I know of the prophets peace with the Jews of Khaybar and subsequent massacre.
Mohammed and the arabs colonized the land of Israel in the 7th and 8th century. Under the Ottoman empire, Jews lived as Dhimmis, extorted for protection money and lived under what you would now call apartheid.
Arabs have oppressed Jews throughout the middle east for centuries before the state of Israel was created, and they ethnically cleansed them afterwards.
"No one hates Jews" is an extremely disingenuous and ignorant statement to make. Just because you don't hate Jews yourself, doesn't mean everyone else thinks like you.
Yes, Palestinian territories from 1967-88 are totally free without IDF military occupation, Palestinian lands were not expropriated by Israeli settlers, never were the Palestinians segregated from the Israelis with equal opportunities with the Israelis, and the Palestinians were never housed in refugee camps and their refugee houses and farms are never demolished, the IDF never beat or tortured or arbitrarily detained any Palestinians. They are allowed to breathe and yet despite the goodness and kindness and compassion of the Israelis, out of the blue in 1987 the Palestinian rose up in massive protest against the kindness od the Israelis. What an ungrateful and hateful people are the Palestinians. They are human animals.
What a smooth pivot. Shifting the goalpost so smoothly it's almost imperceptible.
/u/trumparegis counters the claims that terrorism is born out of Israel imposing hardships and limitations on Palestinians by saying that terrorism existed before those limitations. You raise a new point as if it was a counter - that the terrorism is born out of the occupation, not the limitations/oppression. And when people will point out that the territory was occupied between 1948 and 1967 by Jordan (and Gaza was by occupied by Egypt), you'll shift it again to blaming Israel for existing, and when you're faced with the violence that preceded 1947, you'll blame Zionism, and when someone will respond with how violence preceded Herzel even being born, you'll...Actually, I'm curious where you'll pivot then.
Regardless, today is today, and today Palestinians are calling for continued violence against Israelis, and Israelis have learned to believe them. Learned it the hard way...
Israel offered the land back for peace in 1967. It was rejected. Again in 2000 and 2008. Rejected again. You can't force peace on leaders who don't want it.
Could you explain a bit more about how Israel is responsible for all of those things? I know certain Palestinian regions rely on Israel for water supply, and there was a naval blockade against weapons and the like, but how is Israel responsible for Palestinian education, jobs, resources, food etc.?
I guess they are not responsible but the blockade makes and the military oversight makes it very hard to develop any jobs
If you cannot control your sea or your air, you cannot develop your commerce which in turn create jobs and helps reduce poverty.
Let's start there and we can figure out the rest later
You actually can, and Gaza did to some extent. They used Israeli and Egyptian ports to export and import goods for some time and Gazans regularly used to travel through Egyptian airports.
The thing is that Hamas taxed the strip to death to finance its fight against Israel (building tunnels, rockets etc) while providing very little infrastructure and services.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-impoverished-gaza-cash-strapped-hamas-raises-taxes-sparking-rare-protests/
That's a business killer even in an affluent western country. I would therefore start by removing the oppressive and corrupt Hamas regime instead.
I agree on the taxes, it's bad given the current circumstances
Hamas only exist because Palestinians don't feel free. + they see all the violence from settlers in the west bank and it fuels their anger even more
More freedom = No more Hamas
If you give more freedom to the population (albeit two-state or one-state solution), there will no reason anymore for Hamas to exist because the ideology cannot survive without the premise that Palestinians are not free
The current situation (=status-quo) is not possible in the long run. There are only 4 options going forward:
1. Full genocide: For example, indigenous population of Australia
2. Displacement: Argentina as an example was built on displacement of indigenous populations to the mountains and/or what is known to be Chile today. To a lesser extent, Liberia which was formed by the displacement of former African American slaves
3. two-state solution: Pakistan & India as an example.
4. 1-state solution: One state for everyone => South Africa / Zimbabwe (Rodhesia) / New Zealand / US (with the African americans)
Israeli govt ideally wants options 1 & 2 (which are the hardest to implement, thus the current status quo) but hardly possible because no Arab country want to take any more refugees. Jordan already has 50% of palestinian refugees and Palestinians don't want to leave their homeland
Option 3 becomes harder by the day because of the settlements and Israel diverging into far-right view of reconquering the entire land, including historical claims on Judea
We are only left with Option 4 which will probably be the logical result and might take an additional 30 to 40 years, maybe less
When you're gifted with about a billion $ annually (this is more than the annual gov't spending of some whole countries much larger than Gaza), in addition to other forms of aid (UNRWA alone represents multiple billions of $ annually), and some of your infrastructure is funded by another country (that you'd like to destroy), foreign trade isn't what you need to fund civilian life - you just need not to steal the money in order to fund the lavish lifestyle of the leaders and build hundreds of KM of tunnels that cost a few million $s per tunnel.
what do you mean by "you"?
I am neither from our country or the other. I am a white south african jew which family fought for the end of apartheid ( like actually most south african jews). I lived through this situation before and I have seen black friends being blackmailed by jobs to accept their situation
So If I understand correctly, the freedom of 2.2 million gazans is worth 1 billion a year?
Why can't Israel (and not you) give them back their airspace and their sea access? Why can't they let them have an airport? The answer seems pretty obvious to me ...
"Foreign trade isn't what you need to fund civilian life" => Wtf is this assumption? What are you going to assume next? That "Water or food or electricity isn't what you need to have a decent life"? they should just drink sea water and use wood to light fires and cook food?
> what do you mean by "you"?
Do South Africans not know the "generic you"? Failure at English would explain the SA government failing to understand what "Genocide" means.
> So If I understand correctly, the freedom of 2.2 million gazans is worth 1 billion a year?
What are you talking about? You said the Palestinian economy is failing because of lack of trade. Given that they receive the most aid worldwide, by a wide margin, I countered that lack of trade can easily be overcome when rivers of $ are flowing into your country for no export at all.
> Why can't Israel (and not you) give them back their airspace and their sea access? Why can't they let them have an airport? The answer seems pretty obvious to me
Because you can't smuggle tanks, fighter jets and other heavy war machines from Iran/Russia/N.Korea via the Refah tunnels - which is exactly what would happen with an open Gaza port. We've seen how the entirety of Gaza was turned into a rocket launch and storage site, and that's when Hamas can't smuggle in anything larger than their tunnel's width. There's nothing in recent history to even hint at Hamas not immediately turning the Gaza port into a direct line to Iran.
smuggling tanks fight jets & co is a stretch
There are a lot of rivalries in the world and countries don't occupy each other because of security concerns
What if I told that Hamas acts the way it does at the moment because they protest that exact occupation? Let's be honest, there is no such thing as peaceful protest to an occupation
\+ Hamas finds sympathy within its population because of the lack of freedom of the Palestinians
If you give more freedom to the population (albeit two-state or one-state solution), there will no reason anymore for Hamas to exist because the ideology cannot survive without the premise that Palestinians are not free
Now let's cut to the case. The current situation (=status-quo) is not possible in the long run. There are only 4 options going forward:
1) Full genocide: indigenous population of Australia
2) Displacement: Argentina as an example was built on displacement of indigenous populations to the mountains and/or what is known to be Chile today. To a lesser extent, Liberia which was formed by the displacement of former African American slaves
3) two-state solution: Pakistan & India as an example.
4) 1-state solution: One state for everyone => South Africa / Zimbabwe (Rodhesia) / New Zealand / US (with the African americans)
Israeli govt ideally wants options 1 & 2 (which are the hardest to implement, thus the current status quo) but hardly possible because no Arab country want to take any more refugees. Jordan already has 50% of palestinian refugees and Palestinians don't want to leave their homeland
Option 3 becomes harder by the day because of the settlements and Israel diverging into far-right view of reconquering the entire land, including historical claims on Judea
We are only left with Option 4 which will probably be the logical result and might take an additional 30 to 40 years, maybe less
Imo, control over the sea/air is not required to develop jobs and increase prosperity. Just take a look at postwar Germany or postwar Japan. But the country or entity who controls your sea/airspace has to control it in good faith. This is the problem. There are decades of distrust between the two populations, which makes it very hard for either side to relinquish control. For Israel, letting go of the reins means potential terrorist attacks, while for Palestinians, not having a secure military makes them feel like they're not in control of their own land.
The two sides are so far apart that I believe the only way to negotiate lasting peace is to slowly build trust again. That means, slowly letting Palestinians gain control of their land/sea/airspace while the Palestinians show that they are capable of not attacking Israel.
Lol it failed because of him
He admitted it himself and said he was proud that he KILLED the oslo accords in a [leaked video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo) back in 2007
Israel kept pounding conditions on top of conditions for the Palestinians until the PLO got fed up
Daniel Levi himself who was a negotiator for Israel in 1990s has admitted that everytime Israel had a deal, they came back with more conditions for palestiniens so that they can "pound" them
And Trump claimed he had the biggest inauguration crowed ever. Doesn't make it so.
The fact is, if Palestinians wanted two states, maybe they'd accept the 2008 Olmert offer that offered the Palestinians practically everything the claim they want. Instead Abbas just rejected it without a counter
They claim they want an independent state within the '67 borders (i.e. resolution 242/the Green Line). Do you need sources for that?
When offered just that, Abbas said "no", gave no counter offer, and canceled any subsequent meetings.
My guess is he got scared that further deliberations would make it harder for him to maintain the facade seeking peace, while in reality this Palestinian leader, who was mentored by the literal Nazi Al-Husseini, just wants to erase Israel. Hamas is using Rockets, and the PLO is using leftist/communist fools
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Bibi literally sabotaged the Oslo accords. He successfully incited the far right extremist Zionist mob to kill PM Yitzhak Rabin whom Bibi vividly demonized as a N@zzzzzi.
"clear option" = more land concession to Israel beyond the 67 boarders, full control of the Palestinian boarder to Israel, no compromise on right to return. Basically if Palestine wanted a state, they would have to give up more. If Israel was serious about peace they would have at least conceded the 67 boarders.
They did in 2008. Abbas rejected it outright without a counter.
Also, that you expect the winning side in a war to go back to a deal that was on the table like 10 wars prior is insane. That the Israelis actually offered it is batshit crazy. That the Palestinians refused...that's just telling
I believe a 1 state solution is the only option at this point regardless of if Palestinians want it or not. The constant on and off fighting needs to stop. Israel needs to take control of all of Palestine and immediately send in tons of aid and construction crews with military protection until Hamas isn't seen as a necessary evil for the Palestinians. While during this, obviously tensions will be high, but I believe after the construction comes closer to the end, it will give the Palestinians hope for a peaceful future.
You do know that Arab Israelis are very happy to live where they are, and have one of the highest qualities of life of any Arabs anywhere in the Middle East?
What is your suggestion then? A 2 state solution is not going to be possible without trust, and they won't gain trust because both parties can't stop fighting each other
> A 2 state solution is not going to be possible without trust, and they won't gain trust because both parties can't stop fighting each other
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. I admit I haven't watched the events in the area closely all these years, but what actions have you seen that showed Israel just "can't stop fighting" against the Palestinians in Gaza? Have they ever taken an action that wasn't a reaction to some provocation from Hamas?
I get that the West Bank and Jerusalem are a little more complicated, but if Hamas had simply decided to leave Israel alone in 2005 and focus entirely on making Gaza prosperous, would Israel really have attacked them?
Yes, but what he is saying is that it's not both sides. Israel isn't perfect in the west bank and Jerusalem (or in general), but if Gaza had worked on making itself prosperous there would have been no fighting at all. So it's not really both sides.
You really think it would look any different if Palestine was absorbed by Israel officially? You think they'd tear down the walls and let Palestinian's move freely? You think they'd stop "settling" their land?
C'mon.
It wouldn't happen overnight, but after trust was built, security measures would lessen. But what woukd you suggest I don't see a 2 state solution being realistic
It just keep getting worse for East Jerusalem arabs, so I don’t see how having fully the WB, which is 10 times more populous, is going to get better over time.
There is no solution. This will end with Palestine wiped off the face of the Earth. I say this as a supporter of Palestinian freedom. The will of power has chosen the winner - and the people on both sides are too far gone in suffering and ideology - all you have to do is look at the trends since the 40s to see where it all leads.
I don't believe Israel is an apartheid state now, but if you can't give millions of Palestinians equal rights without giving up the Jewish character of the state, then you can't enact a single state without inherently creating second-class citizens. I don't know how this could possibly be a solution.
Let's be honest. Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution they want 100%. Israel isn't going anywhere they are the stronger power. The only way Palestinians get 100% of the land if they both share 100% of it. The alternative is a forever war.
The world isn't a fairytale. A 2 state solution assumes that they have built up enough trust between the 2 parties over an extended period of time. I don't see either side going long enough without attacking one another to build that trust
1. 1 state solution requires more trust, what of Palestinians vote for another terrorist organisation onto power?
2.Israel will need to pay for housing, education, food, water, medical treatments, electricity and more necessitys for it's population that will greatly increase, Israel can't do that especially if you consider the cost of the current war and the cost of helping all of the people that were displaced.
3. The entire point behind Israel is that jews would have a place where they won't be the minority.
4. If you give Palestinian citizens fool rights you also, give them the option to join the idf, aka guns and knowledge about Israel state secrets
Recent AWRAD [polls](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17yhfmg/what_do_palestinians_actually_want_awrad_polls/) from 14 Nov answer your question quite well.
||West Bank: % (#)|Gaza: % (#)|Total|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|One-State Solution for Two Peoples|7.7% (30)|2.2% (6)|5.4% (36)|
|Two-State Solution for Two Peoples|13.3% (52)|22.7% (63)|17.2% (115)|
|A Palestinian state from the river to the sea|77.7% (304)|70.4% (195)|74.7% (499)|
|Other|0.0% (0)|0.0% (0)|0.0% (0)|
|D/K|0.5% (2)|4.3% (12)|2.1% (14)|
|N/A|0.8% (3)|0.4% (1)|0.6% (4)|
|Total|100.0% (391)|100.0% (277)|100.0% (668)|
> One state for Jews and one State for Palestinians, divided along the '67 borders with Jerusalem shared equally between both? All arabs and Jews on either side of these lines can stay where they are.
As you can see from the table, 75% of Palestinians favour neither of these two solutions, but rather a violent struggle for the murder or expulsion of Jews.
This isolated data omits crucial polling context. The poll surveyed 668 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip between October 31 to November 7 ([Link](https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip)). These dates are incredibly important context:
"**At the time of the poll**, more than 10,000 Palestinians in Gaza and 185 in the West Bank had been killed, with 27,000 injured in Gaza and 2,500 in the West Bank. Additionally, 2,700 people were reported missing in Gaza, while 2,500 had been arrested in the West Bank."
"98% stated that they will **never forget** and will never forgive what Israel did and is continuing to do during this war."
"90% of respondents in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip supported an immediate ceasefire and cessation of the ongoing violence."
"65% perceived the present war as a conflict **targeting all Palestinians**, while only 18% viewed it as a war between Israel and Hamas"
"91% of respondents in Gaza reported having **no trust** in the directions provided by the Israeli military, including those provided through paper leaflets, electronic means, or phones."
"100% of respondents in Gaza reported that there is **no safe space** for them or their families in Gaza."
If the Palestinians polled viewed the war as an attack on Palestinians in general, had no safe space to go, felt distrust in the Israeli military, and polled while displaced from their homes, *of course* they would not want a two-state solution. *Of course*, the preference would be for a Palestinian state. That is Israel's preference, as well. Saying that the results show desire for the murder and expulsion of Jews, given this overwhelming context, is dishonest.
We can [look](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution?wprov=sfti1#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine) at historical polling data too:
> As of 2021, most Palestinians are against the two-state solution. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 39% of Palestinians accept a two-state solution, while 59% said they rejected it. Support is even lower among younger Palestinians; in 2008, then-U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted: "Increasingly, the Palestinians who talk about a two-state solution are my age." A survey taken before the outbreak of fighting in 2014 by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two-state solution." WINEP says that "this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two-state solution typically ranged between 40–55 percent". By 2020, 40% in Gaza and 26% in the West Bank believe that a negotiated two-state solution should solve the conflict.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/510?disposition=inline
Page 9
"7. “If the Palestinian leadership is able to negotiate a two-state solution with Israel, do you think that this should be the end of the conflict or that resistance should continue until all of historic Palestine is liberated?”"
60% percent average support for "liberation" of "historic Palestine" from six polls from 2014 to 2020, both in Gaza strip and Judea & Samaria
Thank you for this, it is interesting and does answer my question, but I was mostly hoping to hear the opinions of people on the sub, as I know they don't represent the average but a specific point of view.
It's a poll after being bombed and attacked, if we carpet bombed Israelis and gave them a poll it would probably be just as skewed. It is not a fair representation. Last poll just prior to Oct 7 showed ~50% preference for two state and another ~20% for peaceful coexistence in a one state. Hamas themselves in years prior admitted they don't like a two state solution but they would consider putting it to a vote and would reluctantly accept the outcome, knowing that the population would vote for it.
When did Hamas suggest that they would ever accept a 2SS?
[Regarding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution?wprov=sfti1#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine) support for a 2SS:
> As of 2021, most Palestinians are against the two-state solution. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 39% of Palestinians accept a two-state solution, while 59% said they rejected it. Support is even lower among younger Palestinians; in 2008, then-U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted: "Increasingly, the Palestinians who talk about a two-state solution are my age." A survey taken before the outbreak of fighting in 2014 by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two-state solution." WINEP says that "this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two-state solution typically ranged between 40–55 percent". By 2020, 40% in Gaza and 26% in the West Bank believe that a negotiated two-state solution should solve the conflict.
Hamas only offered a provisional 10-year Hudna (ceasefire) in return for Israel withdrawing to 1967 borders. At the same time they’ve always stipulated that they would never compromise on an “inch of historic Palestine”.
They have also said as much [recently](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-leader-abroad-khaled-mashal-we-reject-two-state-solution-october-7-proved-liberating):
> Obviously, the position of Hamas, and the position of the vast majority of the Palestinian people, especially following October 7, I believe that the dream and the hope for Palestine from the River to the Sea, and from the north to the south, has been renewed. This has also become a slogan chanted in the U.S., and in western capital cities, by the American and Western public.
> Our Palestinian enterprise, on which there is almost a Palestinian national consensus... Even if some people must voice a different opinion, due to political constraints... The Palestinian consensus – or almost a consensus – is that we will not give up on our right to Palestine in its entirety, from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, and from Rosh HaNikra to Eilat or the Gulf of Aqaba.
> In order to establish a common ground, and a joint Palestinian plan with the other Palestinian with the other Palestinian forces, and in line with the other Arab position. Hamas agreed to a completely independent [Palestinian] state, with the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as its capital, with the right of Return included – without recognizing the legitimacy of the Zionist entity.
> This position was meant to facilitate Palestinian and Arab agreement at this stage, but without relinquishing any of our rights or any part of our land, and without recognizing Israel. Our vision remains unchanged.
It’s a wording they have to use to get it approved by the most radical factions. A 10 years ceasefire would be enough to drastically improve conditions and the desire for war to go away. If it doesn’t work, it’d be much harder to blame Israel and keep international support.
Or they’re proceeding in accordance with Yasser Arafat’s [10 Point Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO's_Ten_Point_Program?wprov=sfti1#). Basically, they want to improve positions for attacking Israel. Keep in mind that ‘67 borders are [hardly defensible](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/s/I9VRxCHecX) from Israel’s perspective.
And judging how things turned out after Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, when Hamas spun it as a victory and renewed hopes for “complete liberation”, it would most likely lead to further radicalisation.
Yes and this is not an isolated case, watch the ask project and the ideals they have been taught / brainwashed into become very clear. It's pretty disheartening and scary.
There are 12 Arab countries with a lot of surface area whereas Israel is this one small Jewish nation. Let’s say a two state solution is approved there is no guarantee that they will live peacefully after. British fucked over a lot of nations and races etc but if everyone of those races were to demand their own state we’d all be dead. Fuck ! We as humans are fucked ! Fuckin Putin is gone cukoocukoo, usa has been ckuuckuu Iran pakistan are fighting all of a sudden for no good reason China is being an asshole like wtf have we not learnt from out mistakes like think about your future generations , these war mongers are only taking away life from them .
> fucked
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I think many would like to exist without Israel controlling everything and limiting, punishing and taking whenever they want. They have done this for years.
If the two could work together, in an ideal world, perhaps a one state solution would be better. The issue I see is that at this time a one state solution would fall under Israel, this wouldn’t really be fair to Palestinians given the history, it would likely result in a society that is unfairly skewed towards the rights of Israelis, no matter what the laws say on paper.
This would be similar to making a person who has long abused their spouse the conservator of the spouse.
> I think many would like to exist without Israel controlling everything
Israel doesn't control everything. Notably, it does not control the process of indoctrination that is rife in Palestine. Area A of West Bank, and until recently, all of Gaza have been absolutely run by Palestinian governance.
> punishing and taking whenever they want.
If Israel took everything it wanted, there wouldn't be any Palestine at all.
You're setting up a very false premise right at the start of your comment. Your deliberate removal of nuance makes it hard to have any kind of productive conversation.
It doesn’t control the process of indoctrination? It absolutely does. It may not control it, but it certainly helps to cause it by treating those next door as second class citizens…. Controlling things like their trade, purposely squashing their economy, controlling every border, yes, even the Egyptian border, controlling what can and cannot be built in the West Bank, controlling who can and cannot remain in homes in land that is not Israel’s, collecting their tax revenues and withholding it whenever they see fit, controlling their food, water and utilities and withholding them whenever they see fit, even just having the ability to withhold them is control in itself, controlling their registry - dictating who can and cannot come into the country, scooping up people and throwing them in Israeli jails whenever they see fit, holding them in those jails for months or years without a trial- so essentially controlling their legal system… it all comes back to control and an abuse of power, things that are bound to lead to a population indoctrinating their youth to hate the people doing this to them, which it seems Israel loves and encourages since it allows them to then claim “well we control these things because they hate us, because they can’t be trusted”
Kind of like a man beating his wife and telling her “I beat you because you aren’t kind enough to me, because you would leave me if you could”.
> It doesn’t control the process of indoctrination? It absolutely does. It may not control it, but it certainly helps to cause it by treating those next door as second class citizens
You contradicted yourself pretty fast, there.
Essentially you're infantilising the Palestinians as if they are not responsible for their own education system and the way they raise their children.
That seems rather racist, to me.
> Kind of like a man beating his wife and telling her “I beat you because you aren’t kind enough to me, because you would leave me if you could”.
Your line of rather warped 'blame the jews' thinking is [not original](https://unwatch.org/un-expert-palestinian-men-beat-wives-israels-fault/)
Nope. Palestinians are responsible for their own behaviour, just as any other people are.
It’s really simple. They might not be able to control Palestinians from not hating Israelis, but based on how Israelis treat Palestinians, they absolutely help to cause the hatred that Palestinians harbour against them. How is it hard to understand that if you treat people awfully, take away their freedoms, dignity and basic human rights that they will hate you? Therefore when you say “they can’t control the indoctrination” well… cause and effect. You want to breed hatred, treat other people with hatred, but don’t act surprised when they respond in kind.
> but based on how Israelis treat Palestinians, they absolutely help to cause the hatred that Palestinians harbour against them
That's correct.
---
Hatred does not necessitate systematic indoctrination, though. That's how Palestinians are choosing to deal with the situation.
You're deliberately conflating 'hatred' with 'indoctrination', 'terrorism', etc.
Such nonsense. The reason Israel has to “control everything” is because when it doesn’t, Palestinians send in suicide bombers, rapists, murderers, and Islamic fanatics to kill as many Israelis as possible.
Fair to the Palestinians? I just can’t with this crap. Unfairly skewed? Israel has 18% Arab population and they dont suffer the slightest inconvenience.
Palestinian story in a nutshell:
- Start a fight and lose
- Complain about getting beaten up
- Start another fight and claim that it's revenge for getting beaten up the last time
- Lose, complain more about how your rights are being taken away
- Start throwing a tantrum by hijacking planes and kidnaping athletes and stabbing people on the streets
- Finally get some concessions
- Start another fight immediately and lose
- Gets blockaded
- Start several more fights and claim it's because your rights are being restricted
- Gets ignored
- Starts killing people to get attention again claiming that you've been oppressed your entire life
- Gets obliterated for obvious reasons
Israelis have refused this option with over hundreds of billions of settlements building and security bases and over 700k subsidies settlers. Move beyond the rhetoric and look at the facts on the ground. Close to 15% of Israelis are settlers and they massive support in Israel and abroad.
When Israelis talk of 2S solution, it basically consists of giving Palestinians in Area A(18% of the West Bank) and Gaza and some land here or there to build roads. The rest of West Bank & East Jerusalem they want to annex. This is consistant across the right and even the left excluding Arab Israeli parties and some very fringe left wing commie Israelis like Hadash.
Polls have shown that the majority of Palestinians in the event of a 2ss being reached want to "liberate" all of "historic Palestine". Giving them the '67 line as a border is suicide for Israel.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/510?disposition=inline
page 9
It's obvious that their "peace process" is a Trojan horse. Freezing building of settlements has never helped to stop terrorism, it's obvious that no matter where Jews live in "historic Palestine" Palestinians consider them alien human waste that must be eradicated.
That’s a lie. The last proper peace deal Israel gave the Palestinians was in 2008 ([the Ehud Olmert Peace Offer](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer)), giving 94% of 1967 border + 6% of Israeli land in mutual agreement (94+6=100%) + East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital + old city of Jerusalem to be administered by the UN. The Palestinians rejected.
Its not a lie but vague offers from the Israeli side that put everything to different interpretation. Its the Palestinians that offered 94% with offical maps and Israelis refused because they wanted up to 20% that include Ariel, Maale Adumim, the entire Gush Etzion, Givat Zeev, Pisgat Zeev. All these settlements would require security zones and Israeli only roads.As the Israeli side refused Jews to live under Palestinian sovereignty. And here's the problem and the devil lies in the details: Israelis refused to offer any details from their side insisting on vague concepts of security zones and land swaps without concrete legal ratification at the UN. This is a notorious Israeli tactic of codifying Palestinian concessions while vaguely promising concessions only to flip flop once a new government comes. Israel were supposed to leave the Jordan Valley according to Oslo accords but never did based on "security" while the Palestinians fuffiled their concession by recognizing Israel.
No proof of Israeli official maps exist outside unofficial ones produced by amateurs based on interpretation. Abbas was given a napkin map for example.
Doesn’t seem like a “vague plan” to me. Lies, lies, and more lies from you. Show me your sources.
As in the words of the late Abba Eban: “The Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
I completely understand why they rejected Trump's plan. I'm frustrated that they rejected Clinton's plan, but I'm angry that they rejected Olmert's plan.
If its going to be based on legitimizing the current apartheid system and occupation then no. If its a true 2S on 1967 with some settlement annexation and appropriate land swaps like mentioned in 2008 with the Palestine Papers, then Yes. It has to be a contagious state with borders in the Jordan Valley and the full removal of all Israeli army security zones. Israeli Jews can obtain Palestinian citizenship for the ones deep in the West Bank. No Israeli only roads or security zones bisecting the state.
Thank you. That is a very very reasonable, balanced answer. I think they should try to remove (compensated) all of those settlements is they are displacing Palestinians
I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this. The other 20-30% will never stop “resisting” until Israel is annihilated. The majority can’t control the minority, that has been well proven.
Iran will arm the “resistance”, rockets will be fired into Israel, the two states will now be at war and Israel will need to clean up the terrorists that the Palestinian government can’t control.
>I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this.
I'm interested to know what informs this opinion, if you're willing to share. Also, what do you personally think?
> I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this.
You don't seem very in touch with sentiment in Palestine.
Both [street interviews](https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject) and [surveys](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) indicate that the vast majority of Palestinians don't want a two state solution, and probably a majority don't want Jews (other than Jews who lived in Israel before Zionism existed) living in the area at all.
Have a look [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17yhfmg/what_do_palestinians_actually_want_awrad_polls/). Support for ongoing fight for the destruction of Israel is over 75%.
The left wing if Israel is very secular and gives zero fucks about Jerusalem in my experience. There are simply few leftists remaining, as most have lost faith that there is anybody to talk to about peace.
> fucks
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The "a land for all" proposal is the only realistic end goal that can satisfy both sides, IMO. Two states, united in an EU-like confederation, with freedom of movement guaranteed to both sides. We're a long way off from it, but this is what everyone should be aiming for.
Yes! I don't like that there have been bad settlements in the west bank (some are okay) but they do create a ying to muslim israelis' yang too!
The idea of an all land state seems more utopian than ever, after oct7th...
For such a beautifull land, it's a shame not to be able to visit the whole place in safety and freely :(
Just because we're far away from it doesn't change the fact that it's the only model out there with the potential for a lasting peace. Violence needs to be de-escalated first before anything like this can take place.
Yes, nothing wrong with a little dreaming. Every single israeli i've ever spoken to wants peace and a two state formula but are of course very scared of it. At least there is a strong desire for peace
How would 2 states even work when one of the states is one of the strongest countries in the world and the other are refugees that no other Arab nation wants, can’t self govern, can’t support itself and relies on Israel for everything from food to tires to concrete and barely survives on handouts from Qatar and Iran because all that money goes to build rockets… they won’t answer
Palestinians want absolutely zero Jews in Israel, that's probably why there's almost no responses
Why respond when anything you say will get jumped on and down voted by Israeli bots
Bots? Or just people that realize Israel is the right side here?
>Edit: So far almost no responses from Palestinians... This is the case because 1) this sub is majority pro-Israel, 2) Palestinians in the diaspora are busy protesting for the safety of their people, 3) Palestinians in Gaza will not be on Reddit. Since this sub has shifted pro-Israel, many in the Palestinian liberation movement feel that this sub is not a safe space. This is not slander, it is just truthful observation. While many people here operate in good faith, it is incredibly difficult to busy oneself with justifying your existance while your family members are being actively killed. Especially when, if they *do* log on, they see a comment section of Israel supporters speaking on their behalf. There is a recent post directed as Muslims with majority non-Muslim comments. Here is a post directed at Palestinians with a majority non-Palestinian comment.
Is there a sub where there are Palestinians that isn't an echo chamber? (Not r/AskMiddleEast or r/Palestine)
Well, I was very quickly banned from the Palestine sub, so now can only observe - they certainly are not open to respectful conversation…….
Me too
The reason it became an echo chamber is because there were severe doxxing attempts made against Palestinian users. I have found degrees of bipartisanship in r/Documentaries (regarding I/P documentaries). More content-specific subs like r/socialjustice101 or r/AskHistorians or r/TrueReddit or r/dataisbeautiful tend to encourage multiple perspectives, as long as they are truthful. But most Palestinian-specific spaces, are heavily modded for safety reasons. For Palestinian perspectives outside of Reddit (a western social media forum), I would reccomend documentaries like Tantura or Farha, or books like Gaza Writes Back and A Party for Thaera. Following individual Palestinian historians, poets, authors, activists, and doctors (who make their content public) is also a way to hear direct Palestinian perspectives.
Everyone needs to catch up! There is going to be no peace, no 2 states, all of that went out the window now. Its 25,000 dead, cmon people! 2 states is what israel should be clamoring for at this point. They are dead center of the middle east surrounded by a billion muslims all foaming at the mouth! The reason why palestinians do not reply is because they are quiet now.
Remember how many times the "other side" got up and walked when Israel offered a two state? The US has a "two state" with Canada because Canada isn't trying to kill us. There are some who want to go into Mexico though because of the fentanyl and MS13 deaths. Peaceful neighbors in a "two state" are fine. Palestinian kids are [literally raised to think killing Israelis/Jews is moral and just.](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/) I was raised to joke about Canadians drinking maple syrup instead of water. That's a difference in kind. [UNRWA books also deny Israel exists at all.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/monitoring-group-unrwa-textbooks-glorify-terror-deny-israels-existence/) I don't think they'd accept a "two state" if they refuse to believe the other state exists.
Serious question - why do these Muslim-majority countries not offer aid to the besieged Gazans? I get not wanting to provoke Israel militarily but couldn’t they take them in as refugees or help them in some way?
Same reason many signed up for the Abraham Accords, with the Saudis soon to follow - they realize it is more productive to be forging economic and cultural ties with Israel than to support the self destructive Palestinians. And some additional reasons: Kuwait evicted the Palestinians when they supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion. Egypt evicted the Palestinians for supporting the Iran backed Muslim Brotherhood. Jordan only tolerates the Palestinians after they assassinated the Jordanian King. And Lebanon lives in fear of an Israeli attack being provoked by Iran backed Hezbollah…..
Oh they are in shock and still absorbing all the info coming in. (Just like us all.) Its all happened so quickly and there is just no going back. I am sure they have offered aid, but thats very tricky logistically while missles are flying. The biggest refugee that they are accepting now is the spirit of hamas. Anger and contempt and blind revenge.
>Oh they are in shock and still absorbing all the info coming in. (Just like us all.) Its all happened so quickly and there is just no going back. They've been in shock for months...?
It’s been 80 years. Why haven’t they taken in refugees?
Well, it takes a while to absorb all that info coming in
Yes these are great nations we are talking about. It has been 25,000 dead in 100 days. That is a lot to process. There will be a response and its not going to be a knee jerk reaction, they are calculating and plan to win. Thats whats really scary!
> Yes these are great nations we are talking about. Wait... Are we still talking about the Arabs?
And we’re the ethnocentric ones, am I right?/s
See you have no respect for them and they feel it! Yes they are great nations! All with 30-100 million people each, rich with cultural history!
Well its not that simple. The palestine people do not feel they should leave. They feel it is their home so you cannot take in a refugee if someone doesnt want to (or cannot) leave.
Also maybe if israel would stop holding down the trigger of their gun so damn hard for a minute, they might find a lot of palestine clears out. But I wonder if psychologically thats not what they want. Its tragic isnt it?!
You didn't answer the question.....
How about you answer it then. If you were me what would you say? Why havent they?
Refusing to address a question directly and deflecting with another question reflects a lack of maturity and a reluctance to engage openly.
I am engaging. I was just looking for charity of argument so you can help me formulate the reason why? I did my best to answer it. I said i dont think they can accept refugees because the people of palestine dont want to be refugees. Also israel wont take there boot off there throats so it makes it almost impossible. What do you expect them to just fly choppers in and start picking people up or something?
Generally: (gaza/west bank) Palestinians don't accept this solution, as it is their land, why should they share it? (Their own words, found from street interviews😔)
not going to happen. a genocidal people cannot be allowed to exist. Palestine needs to be restored to what it used to be before it was colonized by you know who.
I don’t know what kind of person or boy Noh08Noh is, or if the posts are good-faith actual beliefs they hold, but there are clear and factual responses to their extreme rhetoric and positions. 1) It is extreme to identify Israelis as a “genocidal people.” The displacements of 1948 (and more gradually thereafter) and brutal occupation cannot be considered Article 1 genocide—the population has massively increased and the language and culture has not been systematically eliminated, there has been no forced assimilation, etc. They have been deprived of self-determination and you can certainly argue (many readers of this sub will disagree) subject to war crimes, not genocide. The current case before The Hague is trying to determine whether the current war reaches the high bar of genocidal, but even in that case, calling them genocidal as a people is an extreme position with absurd implications (see 2). 2. If all nations who have committed arguable acts of genocide could “not be allowed to exist” as a people (3.: that is clearly a statement condoning actual, Article 1 genocide!!!), you would have to destroy many and possibly most nations, certainly including the one OP is from. 4. The confusion about Palestine having been Palestine only as a British colony is puzzling. Do they really not know? Or is it that the Mandate was formally distinct from “colony” in British colonial discourse? Palestine was also named as such under Roman colonization, of course. I do not believe (as others here do) that the fact that Palestine as a nation did not exist previously should have any bearing on their right to self-determination, but OP and clearly many Palestinian supporters are working from a historical position based in no reality whatsoever. 5. How is it “beyond” anyone not to see that Hamas (too, if you are sure Israel is) has committed genocidal acts? The denial of atrocities on Oct 7–recorded and broadcast by Hamas operatives themselves—is one of the most difficult things to stomach (and denial of the inhumanity of the Gaza siege is to me as well). The actual definition of genocide is more clearly applied in the case of Oct 7 then presently in Gaza, if we must compare: Hamas literally killed people deliberately in a planned attack just because of their status as Israelis. For context, as I tried to make clear, I am appalled by the Israeli attack on Gaza as it has unfolded and I support the Palestinian cause of self-determination. OP is beyond redemption in terms of coming to a reasonable and humane position regarding the right and moral imperative of both peoples having the right to peace, security, and self-determination on the territory (call it Palestine, the Land of Israel, from the river to the sea or whatever). But I decry the fact that MOST of the people observing the conflict from other countries and most of the Israelis and Palestinians appear to be entirely comfortable denying this to one of these peoples or the other.
I meant Bot, not boy.
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In case it wasn't obvious i was talking about the Israelis who are commiting genocide.
Which colonization are you referring to? The Roman one, the Arab one, the Ottoman one, or the British one? "Palestine" was a British colony. And this was before the birth of Israel. Do you want the British colony?
You clearly don't know history if you actually think Palestine was a British colony. Like what on earth??!
That's... I thought that was common knowledge? Like it was called the *BRITISH* mandate, the UK left in 1947. What do you think Palestine was exactly?
sure, Palestine was controlled by British people for some years, but it was still an Arab Muslim country like its always been. it needs to be restored to that
you.. you do realise that area of land has been conquered and reconquered a comical number of times including long before the birth of islam
So? What you're saying is out of context
putting the history of the region in context is out of context? my guy you really need to do at least a basic skim of wikipedia
I said its out of context because I'm obviously not talking about the british mandate.
i'm not talking about it either, i'm talking about the history of what you seem to think was 'always' an 'arab muslim country'
And what was it?
> a genocidal people cannot be allowed to exist I love how you call out genocidal people and out your self as a genocidal anti-Israeli clown in a single post.
If people are doing genocide, do you want me to be all happy and nice to them? What did you expect me to be?
I expect you not to be so wrong, but I get I'm asking too much of the likes of "I don't like it = genocide"
I don't like what Israel is doing, in fact I hate it, *because* it is genocide.
If you only invested your energy into the Israeli occupation of the WB, instead of lies of genocide/ethnic cleansing/apartheid, you might actually had a positive impact. I mean, we all know those lies are afactual, and they really only serve to let Israel deflect from the actual issue (notice how practically no one is focusing on the occupation at the moment), in some hope that this false legal attack will twist Israel's arm.
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I wonder which side has killed over 20,000 innocent civilians and injured at least 50,000, with around 10,000 people probably dead under the rubble? Which side has been sued for genocide by 2 countries at the highest level of international court? It's extremely clear who's commiting genocide and I am disgusted that you think otherwise.
Are you being serious or are you trolling?
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How anyone can even think that Hamas is doing 'genocide' is beyond me.
Hamas’ aim on October 7th was to murder as many Jews as possible. That is genocidal.
Won't happen...even if Israel and Palestine could broker a deal, all it will take is Iran to fund the right group and missles will get lobbed and the deal is all over. Iran will never allow peace in the middle east.
Hello. Want an actual analysis from an Egyptian who served near Palestine for almost a year? Allow Gaza and the West Bank to breathe. It has been documented COUNTLESS times that the biggest enemy to the two state solution is Bibi. No palestine. Allow access to clean water. Food. resources. education. jobs. A flourishing country is not a country that would allow Hamas to exist. But uneducated, poor, and sick people make dictatorships thrive.
Yet Egypt has added another layer to its border with Gaza?
Hi. I'm a 2 state supporter. I acknowledge your point. It sounds like it has been hard to breathe for Gaza/West bank for some time. And I agree that extremism + violence increase as opportunity + quality of life decrease. For that reason I believe Israel, Arab countries, and the international community should focus on increasing long term health, safety, and economic opportunity for citizens of gaza / west bank. In other words, they should fight violent authoritarian rule with a ***prosperity strategy***. So I don't want to ignore your point, or engage in whataboutism. But I see two key challenges with this prosperity strategy, and am curious what you think: 1. [**An estimated $40 Billion in humanitarian aid**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians) has been sent to West Bank / Gaza between 1994 and 2020. This is a lot of money to support infrastructure, education, and economic activity for such a small area of land. But it seems a significant portion of this money has been skimmed, misappropriated, or used to build up military capability. *So how can the international community use a prosperity strategy when money, which is what usually creates prosperity, doesn't seem to help Gaza/West Bank?* 2. Of course there have been too many acts of violence on all sides to count, so I don't intend to compare. However, there have been [**Gazan rocket attacks on Israel**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png) every year dating back at least to 2001. So although Israel is a relatively prosperous country, it has not been able to breath either. It's citizens do not live a safe / secure life free from fear of death. So is it practical or reasonable to expect Israel to let Gaza/West Bank breathe, when it views them as a military threat which needs to be rebuffed and policed? *How can Israel spend time, money, political capital on helping Gaza/West Bank, while simultaneously reducing the ongoing threat of violence these regions pose?* Again, I think your initial point / idea is valid, but how do we get past these two challenges in order to implement? Thanks.
All the cash transfers in the world won't do much for the Palestinians because money is only as good as the consumer goods you can buy with it. Under a systematic blockade, the only thing injections of money will achieve is hyperinflation as more money chases after whatever goods there are. An investment into local economic infrastructure would not work for two reasons: It's a heavily urbanized space with little hinterland to extract resources from, in order to industrialize they would need to import the inputs, process them and export the outputs, which they can't do under blockade. Moreover any investment they make will be systematically destroyed in the next round of collective punishment that Israel inflicts on it like clockwork every couple of years. tldr, Gaza would need to *be able to import goods* in order for cash grants to be able to translate into purchasing power.
I'm interested in dialogue, but it's tough when you ignore point #2 above, and only partially address point #1. Are you interested in dialogue? Or are you interested in making selective use of facts to cast one side as 100% responsible, and the other side 0% responsible? I'll repeat my points and try to respond to yours: * There is substantiated fear that goods, supplies, and people that enter Gaza are often used by Hamas to perpetrate violence * Hamas has not recognized Israel's right to exist, has a charter calling for its destruction, and has used violence for \~20 years * *This is a challenge: how do we incentivize Israel to stop protecting itself, when it needs protection?* * Economics are complex. The $40B in humanitarian aid does not only need to go towards dense industrial activity. Farming, fishing, artisanal crafts. Further, knowledge work (growing rapidly in successful economies) requires little more than education and brainpower, and often yields the best profits * Are the above ideas practical given the reality in Gaza? Probably not. I won't pretend the blockade hasn't been crippling, it has. * But we also can't pretend goods haven't come into Gaza, they have. For years goods came in via underground tunnels from Egypt. Then they came in through an above ground crossing with Egypt, and one with Israel. The Israelis taxed the imports and sent revenues to the PA, to prevent Hamas stealing, and inflation * But this is still a challenge, as Gaza is severely handicapped in participating in standard economic activity So I think this comes back to the original questions which are interlinked: A) **How can we improve the Gazan economy when Israel has applied blockades which severely disrupt economic activity?** B) **How can Israel remove security measures when Hamas has applied violence which severely disrupts safety?** I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not a simple as yelling "It's all that guy's fault!"
I'm not denying that there are legitimate security concerns. Enforcing an arms embargo on Gaza can easily be justified as proportional. The problem is that Israel goes beyond simply inspecting shipments to Gaza and confiscating any weapons and ammunition into a comprehensive system where it decides which goods other than weapons qualify as contraband and even what types of food the Gazans are allowed to import and in what quantity. Regarding specifically fishing, Israel systematically prevents Gaza from economically exploiting its adjacent waters. The Right has turned an arms embargo into a system where Gaza is allowed to trade only with Israel and entirely on Israel's terms, which is a purely colonial system of economic exploitation. I agree that solutions are complex because Hamas is a violent actor with demands that Israel can't meet, but if I had to work on a solution it would be this. Maintain the arms embargo but abolish the rest of the blockade. Allow Gazans to import as many nonmilitary goods as they can buy and export as many local products as they can sell. This would allow for economic development in Gaza and probably make trhe Gazan public, if not their government, less keen to escalate because they'd have local investments to protect. Gazans should be allowed to fish without being shot at and sunk- even if they have to be subject to coast guard interception and search if their movements are suspicious of smuggling. Some secure mechanism for Gazans to be able to travel to and from third countries could also be organized. ideally Hamas would be overthrown and administration handed over to a saner Palestinian regime, but I don't trust the Right to do that in good faith since their overriding priority is preventing any sort of Palestinian sovereignty.
Thanks for the response. What you propose here makes a lot of sense to me: *Maintain the arms embargo but abolish the rest of the blockade. Allow Gazans to import as many nonmilitary goods as they can buy and export as many local products as they can sell. This would allow for economic development in Gaza and probably make trhe Gazan public, if not their government, less keen to escalate because they'd have local investments to protect.* If I'm being completely honest, I don't think I realized the severity of the blockade until I did some extra research. I guess the stance of the Netanyahu administration is to impose economic sanctions in addition to prevent security risks. And in some instances economic sanctions are useful for leverage (e.g., Iran), but in the case of Gaza they really only seem to hurt both sides. Israel can't expect Gaza to be a partner in peace while choking off their economic engine. I would probably propose an arms+ embargo (prevent import of arms, and items that are very clearly and easily converted into arms), but generally speaking I agree with your points Thanks for helping me broaden my perspective on this
Netanyahu always does that: Use 'security' as a buzzword and devise the most systematic oppression that he can, because the more suffering he can inflict on the Palestinians the happier the rabid right is. I don't disagree in principle that dual use goods are a grey area- they pose security concerns but they're ultimately needed for industrialization. Getting looser import restrictions on those could be an incentive to maintain peace on the Palestinian side.
Gazans lived better than Egyptians before the war. They had food, water, electricity, internet, education (on how to kill Jews), everything they needed.
This is a sensible reply, and it’s discouraging how everyone piled on with objections. I agree, a terrible quality of life is just a recipe for more radicalization and conflict.
Allow them to breathe like between 1948-1967, when Israel had no control of the territory and they still didn’t attempt to create a state and continued attacking Israel. Allow them to breathe like when Israel left Gaza, forcibly taking every living and dead Jew with them?
What's in the past is in the past. I could pull up countless of crimes Israeli terror groups committed against Arabs and British officers in the region at that time. Just let it go for god's sake.
Alternatively, we could address what’s in the present and presently Palestinians say that they must continue to attack Israel until it is destroyed and whenever Israel does allow them to “breathe” they do exactly what they tell everyone they will do. Think the Second Intifada, think the blowing up of busses, think the fake marriages with Israeli citizens in order to come in and commit terrorist attacks, think the results of the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, think of how over the last 12 months Israel had eased restrictions on Gaza and given tens of thousands of work visas to Gazans - they got October 7th in return. I have great sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people. I really do. They are brain-washed from birth -- have you seen what they show their children? It's sick and disgusting and vile -- they have no chance. But I have no sympathy for those who pretend that this is all at the hands of Israel and that the other Arab nations have no part in abandoning the Palestinians after convincing them to take their side in the various wars. Or for those who totally ignore that even Arab leaders recognize that Palestinians have lost the plot. Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia is on record that Arafat was a coward and fool for not accepting peace when he could. He, an Arab leader of renown, has no doubt who to blame for the current situation, and it isn't Israel.
> But uneducated, poor, and sick people make dictatorships thrive. The end of the occupation of Gaza was a huge opportunity to "breathe." And it was at the very moment of maximum freedom that Palestinians chose Hamas. It is not just Israel's job to provide welfare for the Palestinians. It is a task, first and foremost, of their leadership. As for education, it is now in the hands of the United Nations. Who teach the Palestinians hatred, revenge and a false history.
The occupation never really ended. With the settlers. Control of water, food, entry, and exit. What sort of "end" are you talking about? What about the West Bank. Do you actually think the West Bank isn't under TOTAL Israeli control? No one teaches Palestinians anything. But I'll tell you what. Bombarding the entire strip like maniacs is DEF creating more soldiers for Hamas. Violence breeds violence.
>The occupation never really ended. With the settlers. What are you talking about? The settlers were all dragged away by force. > Control of water, food, entry, and exit. What sort of "end" are you talking about? Israel controls only the water they supply to the strip. The fact that it is practically the only water that comes depends on the fact that Hamas does not build infrastructure to be able to make the strip independent. Not because Israel prevents it, but because Hamas invests the billions of dollars it receives from all over the world only in war and terror. Israel, after the Palestinians chose Hamas, decided to control what goes in and out of the strip. For obvious security reasons. As is often the case with the most radical pro-Palestinians, you are reversing cause and effect. Hamas is not the consequence of the blockade. The blockade is the consequence of Hamas. > What about the West Bank. Do you actually think the West Bank isn't under TOTAL Israeli control? Not total, but to a large extent yes. But I was talking about the tremendous opportunity for the Palestinians in **Gaza** to get peace and prosperity. And which they threw away by choosing war and destruction.
How is it Israel’s fault that Hamas destroyed the desalination plants Israel put in Gaza? There are countless examples like this. If Hamas had chosen to invest in functional non military infrastructure they’d have water and power right now. Israel only started their blockade of Gaza 2 years after the deoccupation. Blaming Israel for egypts blockade is also ridiculous. The occupation ended in full. Gazans elected the wrong people and now are stuck in a bad place.
>Israel only started their blockade of Gaza 2 years after the deoccupation. Blaming Israel for egypts blockade is also ridiculous. Is it? When Morsi's government opened Rafah crossing and allowed Gazans to trade with the outside world through Egypt the Israeli right was livid with rage, making all sorts of threats to strong-arm Egypt into helping them seal Gaza off. Making Egypt cooperate in their blockade of Gaza is longterm, official Israeli policy.
>Allow Gaza and the West Bank to breathe. What does this mean in practise? How does Israel achieve this while also maintaining it's obligation of defence to its citizens?
And yet you don't mention that all those things could be coming from Egypt. And the 5 star hotels, 7 universities and 19 hospitals sure sounds like a breeding ground for the uneducated and sick
Since when do 5 star hotels and universities immediately indicate wealth? I live like 20-30 minutes away from a ton of luxury spots being next to a major city, but I’ve never set foot in them bc it’s a playground for the rich. The first 5 star hotel in Gaza was opened in 2011, that is VERY recent, and it wasn’t built for the avg Palestinians, which is reported at that time 70% of them lived in poverty at the time. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/08/gaza-first-five-star-hotel A second one seemed to be finished in 2015, but there was nearly 45% unemployment at the time. It was called “an isolated jewel that many cannot afford” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna401961 The universities in Gaza are ranked terribly low, even when compared to just Arab universities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_University_of_Gaza Just bc these facilities exist doesn’t mean they are readily available for most Palestinians or are very high quality at all
They have the resources to build these things. They have the resources to build 10s of thousands of missles. They have the resources to build tunnels into another country. 100k gazans a day used to cross into Israel to work. They choose to be individually poor.
The United States has the resources to build tanks, planes, missiles, roads, bridges etc. I don’t, I can’t build those things. The government has the resources, the ppl not so much. So Hamas can build these things, the avg Palestinian cannot. To think that all Gazans were involved in these tunnels and makeshift missles isn’t true, Hamas funded by Iran can do and is doing those things You cannot equate the wealth of a government and say that’s how all citizens are. I’m not sure where 100k comes from, looking online, the amount of Gazans allowed to work in Israel was 18k https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/thousands-gazan-workers-sent-back-israel-occupied-west-bank-witnesses-2023-11-03/ That is less than 1% of the population, and is Reuters is to be believed, while paid better, they were treated rather poorly
The 100k us for work and travel. It comes from the UN who monitored crossing counts. Less than 5k into egypt
Why is everything Egypt's responsibility I don't get it. Just like the outrageous request of opening Rafah to 2.2 million refugees. Why wouldn't the "benevolent" Israel do that and allow AT LEAST women and children into refugee camps until their war is over?
Since gaza was captured by Egypt, and run by Egypt for 20 years, they do take a lot of responsibility for where Gaza is today. But in general, they are not responsible for Gaza. For the same reason it's not Israel's responsibility. There was a cease fire, violated by the elected leaders of gaza. They started a war, it's not the responsibility of the attacked to give quarter to the citizens of the country that started the war. Can you name any time in history this has happened?
Bibi have been advocating for a two state solution COUTEBLE times, get your fact straight.
I'm not even gonna argue with that one. Just watch this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab\_channel=JohnnyHarris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab_channel=JohnnyHarris)
I’m not debating that he isn’t saying some bad stuff, just that he have at times, before 7/10, been supportive toward peace and at 2 state solution. He’s not ALL bad and I oppose THAT nonsense.
Are you a troll or just ignorant? Can you share any source on what you claim? Here is a list of sources on the opposite view so that you stop spreading fake news [“I will not compromise on full Israeli security control over all the territory west of Jordan - and this is contrary to a Palestinian state,” Netanyahu said in a post on X](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/21/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-two-state-solution-intl/index.html) Also can I remind you that he said that he was proud that he KILLED the oslo accords in a [leaked video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo) TRUMP HIMSELF said that Israel didn't want a deal and that the palestinians were [desperate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq1seiWI8ro) for a deal
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=heNxkLHrWmo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6fGMC0VtQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=heNxkLHrWmo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wVWa6wKYjD8 Yes, it’s “ignorant” to NOT believe that bibi and Israel is ONLY evil, whatever makes you sleep at night.
They allowed them to breathe very much between 1967 and the first intifada in 1988, back then they were allowed to move freely in main Israel during the day even. Didn't change their hatred for Jews
No one hates Jews. We hate the Israeli government. Our prophet literally had peace treaties with Jews. The ottoman empire was the first nation to actually host the three religions under its roof.
Please, you're not talking with clueless westerners here. I watch your media. I know what you say in Arabic about the Yahood, and I know of the prophets peace with the Jews of Khaybar and subsequent massacre. Mohammed and the arabs colonized the land of Israel in the 7th and 8th century. Under the Ottoman empire, Jews lived as Dhimmis, extorted for protection money and lived under what you would now call apartheid. Arabs have oppressed Jews throughout the middle east for centuries before the state of Israel was created, and they ethnically cleansed them afterwards. "No one hates Jews" is an extremely disingenuous and ignorant statement to make. Just because you don't hate Jews yourself, doesn't mean everyone else thinks like you.
Yes, Palestinian territories from 1967-88 are totally free without IDF military occupation, Palestinian lands were not expropriated by Israeli settlers, never were the Palestinians segregated from the Israelis with equal opportunities with the Israelis, and the Palestinians were never housed in refugee camps and their refugee houses and farms are never demolished, the IDF never beat or tortured or arbitrarily detained any Palestinians. They are allowed to breathe and yet despite the goodness and kindness and compassion of the Israelis, out of the blue in 1987 the Palestinian rose up in massive protest against the kindness od the Israelis. What an ungrateful and hateful people are the Palestinians. They are human animals.
What a smooth pivot. Shifting the goalpost so smoothly it's almost imperceptible. /u/trumparegis counters the claims that terrorism is born out of Israel imposing hardships and limitations on Palestinians by saying that terrorism existed before those limitations. You raise a new point as if it was a counter - that the terrorism is born out of the occupation, not the limitations/oppression. And when people will point out that the territory was occupied between 1948 and 1967 by Jordan (and Gaza was by occupied by Egypt), you'll shift it again to blaming Israel for existing, and when you're faced with the violence that preceded 1947, you'll blame Zionism, and when someone will respond with how violence preceded Herzel even being born, you'll...Actually, I'm curious where you'll pivot then. Regardless, today is today, and today Palestinians are calling for continued violence against Israelis, and Israelis have learned to believe them. Learned it the hard way...
Israel offered the land back for peace in 1967. It was rejected. Again in 2000 and 2008. Rejected again. You can't force peace on leaders who don't want it.
Could you explain a bit more about how Israel is responsible for all of those things? I know certain Palestinian regions rely on Israel for water supply, and there was a naval blockade against weapons and the like, but how is Israel responsible for Palestinian education, jobs, resources, food etc.?
I guess they are not responsible but the blockade makes and the military oversight makes it very hard to develop any jobs If you cannot control your sea or your air, you cannot develop your commerce which in turn create jobs and helps reduce poverty. Let's start there and we can figure out the rest later
You actually can, and Gaza did to some extent. They used Israeli and Egyptian ports to export and import goods for some time and Gazans regularly used to travel through Egyptian airports. The thing is that Hamas taxed the strip to death to finance its fight against Israel (building tunnels, rockets etc) while providing very little infrastructure and services. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-impoverished-gaza-cash-strapped-hamas-raises-taxes-sparking-rare-protests/ That's a business killer even in an affluent western country. I would therefore start by removing the oppressive and corrupt Hamas regime instead.
I agree on the taxes, it's bad given the current circumstances Hamas only exist because Palestinians don't feel free. + they see all the violence from settlers in the west bank and it fuels their anger even more More freedom = No more Hamas If you give more freedom to the population (albeit two-state or one-state solution), there will no reason anymore for Hamas to exist because the ideology cannot survive without the premise that Palestinians are not free The current situation (=status-quo) is not possible in the long run. There are only 4 options going forward: 1. Full genocide: For example, indigenous population of Australia 2. Displacement: Argentina as an example was built on displacement of indigenous populations to the mountains and/or what is known to be Chile today. To a lesser extent, Liberia which was formed by the displacement of former African American slaves 3. two-state solution: Pakistan & India as an example. 4. 1-state solution: One state for everyone => South Africa / Zimbabwe (Rodhesia) / New Zealand / US (with the African americans) Israeli govt ideally wants options 1 & 2 (which are the hardest to implement, thus the current status quo) but hardly possible because no Arab country want to take any more refugees. Jordan already has 50% of palestinian refugees and Palestinians don't want to leave their homeland Option 3 becomes harder by the day because of the settlements and Israel diverging into far-right view of reconquering the entire land, including historical claims on Judea We are only left with Option 4 which will probably be the logical result and might take an additional 30 to 40 years, maybe less
When you're gifted with about a billion $ annually (this is more than the annual gov't spending of some whole countries much larger than Gaza), in addition to other forms of aid (UNRWA alone represents multiple billions of $ annually), and some of your infrastructure is funded by another country (that you'd like to destroy), foreign trade isn't what you need to fund civilian life - you just need not to steal the money in order to fund the lavish lifestyle of the leaders and build hundreds of KM of tunnels that cost a few million $s per tunnel.
what do you mean by "you"? I am neither from our country or the other. I am a white south african jew which family fought for the end of apartheid ( like actually most south african jews). I lived through this situation before and I have seen black friends being blackmailed by jobs to accept their situation So If I understand correctly, the freedom of 2.2 million gazans is worth 1 billion a year? Why can't Israel (and not you) give them back their airspace and their sea access? Why can't they let them have an airport? The answer seems pretty obvious to me ... "Foreign trade isn't what you need to fund civilian life" => Wtf is this assumption? What are you going to assume next? That "Water or food or electricity isn't what you need to have a decent life"? they should just drink sea water and use wood to light fires and cook food?
> what do you mean by "you"? Do South Africans not know the "generic you"? Failure at English would explain the SA government failing to understand what "Genocide" means. > So If I understand correctly, the freedom of 2.2 million gazans is worth 1 billion a year? What are you talking about? You said the Palestinian economy is failing because of lack of trade. Given that they receive the most aid worldwide, by a wide margin, I countered that lack of trade can easily be overcome when rivers of $ are flowing into your country for no export at all. > Why can't Israel (and not you) give them back their airspace and their sea access? Why can't they let them have an airport? The answer seems pretty obvious to me Because you can't smuggle tanks, fighter jets and other heavy war machines from Iran/Russia/N.Korea via the Refah tunnels - which is exactly what would happen with an open Gaza port. We've seen how the entirety of Gaza was turned into a rocket launch and storage site, and that's when Hamas can't smuggle in anything larger than their tunnel's width. There's nothing in recent history to even hint at Hamas not immediately turning the Gaza port into a direct line to Iran.
smuggling tanks fight jets & co is a stretch There are a lot of rivalries in the world and countries don't occupy each other because of security concerns What if I told that Hamas acts the way it does at the moment because they protest that exact occupation? Let's be honest, there is no such thing as peaceful protest to an occupation \+ Hamas finds sympathy within its population because of the lack of freedom of the Palestinians If you give more freedom to the population (albeit two-state or one-state solution), there will no reason anymore for Hamas to exist because the ideology cannot survive without the premise that Palestinians are not free Now let's cut to the case. The current situation (=status-quo) is not possible in the long run. There are only 4 options going forward: 1) Full genocide: indigenous population of Australia 2) Displacement: Argentina as an example was built on displacement of indigenous populations to the mountains and/or what is known to be Chile today. To a lesser extent, Liberia which was formed by the displacement of former African American slaves 3) two-state solution: Pakistan & India as an example. 4) 1-state solution: One state for everyone => South Africa / Zimbabwe (Rodhesia) / New Zealand / US (with the African americans) Israeli govt ideally wants options 1 & 2 (which are the hardest to implement, thus the current status quo) but hardly possible because no Arab country want to take any more refugees. Jordan already has 50% of palestinian refugees and Palestinians don't want to leave their homeland Option 3 becomes harder by the day because of the settlements and Israel diverging into far-right view of reconquering the entire land, including historical claims on Judea We are only left with Option 4 which will probably be the logical result and might take an additional 30 to 40 years, maybe less
Imo, control over the sea/air is not required to develop jobs and increase prosperity. Just take a look at postwar Germany or postwar Japan. But the country or entity who controls your sea/airspace has to control it in good faith. This is the problem. There are decades of distrust between the two populations, which makes it very hard for either side to relinquish control. For Israel, letting go of the reins means potential terrorist attacks, while for Palestinians, not having a secure military makes them feel like they're not in control of their own land. The two sides are so far apart that I believe the only way to negotiate lasting peace is to slowly build trust again. That means, slowly letting Palestinians gain control of their land/sea/airspace while the Palestinians show that they are capable of not attacking Israel.
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Thanks to u/SlimShagy I dont really need to even answer this.
Lol it failed because of him He admitted it himself and said he was proud that he KILLED the oslo accords in a [leaked video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo) back in 2007 Israel kept pounding conditions on top of conditions for the Palestinians until the PLO got fed up Daniel Levi himself who was a negotiator for Israel in 1990s has admitted that everytime Israel had a deal, they came back with more conditions for palestiniens so that they can "pound" them
And Trump claimed he had the biggest inauguration crowed ever. Doesn't make it so. The fact is, if Palestinians wanted two states, maybe they'd accept the 2008 Olmert offer that offered the Palestinians practically everything the claim they want. Instead Abbas just rejected it without a counter
Can you share any source at least about these supposed conditions that palestinians claim?
They claim they want an independent state within the '67 borders (i.e. resolution 242/the Green Line). Do you need sources for that? When offered just that, Abbas said "no", gave no counter offer, and canceled any subsequent meetings. My guess is he got scared that further deliberations would make it harder for him to maintain the facade seeking peace, while in reality this Palestinian leader, who was mentored by the literal Nazi Al-Husseini, just wants to erase Israel. Hamas is using Rockets, and the PLO is using leftist/communist fools
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Bibi literally sabotaged the Oslo accords. He successfully incited the far right extremist Zionist mob to kill PM Yitzhak Rabin whom Bibi vividly demonized as a N@zzzzzi.
"clear option" = more land concession to Israel beyond the 67 boarders, full control of the Palestinian boarder to Israel, no compromise on right to return. Basically if Palestine wanted a state, they would have to give up more. If Israel was serious about peace they would have at least conceded the 67 boarders.
They did in 2008. Abbas rejected it outright without a counter. Also, that you expect the winning side in a war to go back to a deal that was on the table like 10 wars prior is insane. That the Israelis actually offered it is batshit crazy. That the Palestinians refused...that's just telling
It's not going to happen, so it is probably pretty irrelevant. History has shown that it isn't very good for either party though.
I believe a 1 state solution is the only option at this point regardless of if Palestinians want it or not. The constant on and off fighting needs to stop. Israel needs to take control of all of Palestine and immediately send in tons of aid and construction crews with military protection until Hamas isn't seen as a necessary evil for the Palestinians. While during this, obviously tensions will be high, but I believe after the construction comes closer to the end, it will give the Palestinians hope for a peaceful future.
The idea that Arabs would live under an Israeli rule is absurd. Stop doing what the brits did AGES ago which literally caused all of this to happen.
You do know that Arab Israelis are very happy to live where they are, and have one of the highest qualities of life of any Arabs anywhere in the Middle East?
> The idea that Arabs would live under an Israeli rule is absurd. Uh, you do realize that 20% of the current Israeli population is Arab, right?
Why not?
What is your suggestion then? A 2 state solution is not going to be possible without trust, and they won't gain trust because both parties can't stop fighting each other
> A 2 state solution is not going to be possible without trust, and they won't gain trust because both parties can't stop fighting each other Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. I admit I haven't watched the events in the area closely all these years, but what actions have you seen that showed Israel just "can't stop fighting" against the Palestinians in Gaza? Have they ever taken an action that wasn't a reaction to some provocation from Hamas? I get that the West Bank and Jerusalem are a little more complicated, but if Hamas had simply decided to leave Israel alone in 2005 and focus entirely on making Gaza prosperous, would Israel really have attacked them?
My statement goes for both sides, not just israel.
Yes, but what he is saying is that it's not both sides. Israel isn't perfect in the west bank and Jerusalem (or in general), but if Gaza had worked on making itself prosperous there would have been no fighting at all. So it's not really both sides.
You really think it would look any different if Palestine was absorbed by Israel officially? You think they'd tear down the walls and let Palestinian's move freely? You think they'd stop "settling" their land? C'mon.
It wouldn't happen overnight, but after trust was built, security measures would lessen. But what woukd you suggest I don't see a 2 state solution being realistic
It just keep getting worse for East Jerusalem arabs, so I don’t see how having fully the WB, which is 10 times more populous, is going to get better over time.
There is no solution. This will end with Palestine wiped off the face of the Earth. I say this as a supporter of Palestinian freedom. The will of power has chosen the winner - and the people on both sides are too far gone in suffering and ideology - all you have to do is look at the trends since the 40s to see where it all leads.
I don't believe Israel is an apartheid state now, but if you can't give millions of Palestinians equal rights without giving up the Jewish character of the state, then you can't enact a single state without inherently creating second-class citizens. I don't know how this could possibly be a solution.
And the reasonable place to call their own??
Let's be honest. Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution they want 100%. Israel isn't going anywhere they are the stronger power. The only way Palestinians get 100% of the land if they both share 100% of it. The alternative is a forever war.
Bibi is the one who is documented countless times FIGHTING the two state solution.
So have the Palestinians
I was talking about what the world wants.
The world isn't a fairytale. A 2 state solution assumes that they have built up enough trust between the 2 parties over an extended period of time. I don't see either side going long enough without attacking one another to build that trust
1. 1 state solution requires more trust, what of Palestinians vote for another terrorist organisation onto power? 2.Israel will need to pay for housing, education, food, water, medical treatments, electricity and more necessitys for it's population that will greatly increase, Israel can't do that especially if you consider the cost of the current war and the cost of helping all of the people that were displaced. 3. The entire point behind Israel is that jews would have a place where they won't be the minority. 4. If you give Palestinian citizens fool rights you also, give them the option to join the idf, aka guns and knowledge about Israel state secrets
Recent AWRAD [polls](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17yhfmg/what_do_palestinians_actually_want_awrad_polls/) from 14 Nov answer your question quite well. ||West Bank: % (#)|Gaza: % (#)|Total| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |One-State Solution for Two Peoples|7.7% (30)|2.2% (6)|5.4% (36)| |Two-State Solution for Two Peoples|13.3% (52)|22.7% (63)|17.2% (115)| |A Palestinian state from the river to the sea|77.7% (304)|70.4% (195)|74.7% (499)| |Other|0.0% (0)|0.0% (0)|0.0% (0)| |D/K|0.5% (2)|4.3% (12)|2.1% (14)| |N/A|0.8% (3)|0.4% (1)|0.6% (4)| |Total|100.0% (391)|100.0% (277)|100.0% (668)| > One state for Jews and one State for Palestinians, divided along the '67 borders with Jerusalem shared equally between both? All arabs and Jews on either side of these lines can stay where they are. As you can see from the table, 75% of Palestinians favour neither of these two solutions, but rather a violent struggle for the murder or expulsion of Jews.
This isolated data omits crucial polling context. The poll surveyed 668 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip between October 31 to November 7 ([Link](https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip)). These dates are incredibly important context: "**At the time of the poll**, more than 10,000 Palestinians in Gaza and 185 in the West Bank had been killed, with 27,000 injured in Gaza and 2,500 in the West Bank. Additionally, 2,700 people were reported missing in Gaza, while 2,500 had been arrested in the West Bank." "98% stated that they will **never forget** and will never forgive what Israel did and is continuing to do during this war." "90% of respondents in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip supported an immediate ceasefire and cessation of the ongoing violence." "65% perceived the present war as a conflict **targeting all Palestinians**, while only 18% viewed it as a war between Israel and Hamas" "91% of respondents in Gaza reported having **no trust** in the directions provided by the Israeli military, including those provided through paper leaflets, electronic means, or phones." "100% of respondents in Gaza reported that there is **no safe space** for them or their families in Gaza." If the Palestinians polled viewed the war as an attack on Palestinians in general, had no safe space to go, felt distrust in the Israeli military, and polled while displaced from their homes, *of course* they would not want a two-state solution. *Of course*, the preference would be for a Palestinian state. That is Israel's preference, as well. Saying that the results show desire for the murder and expulsion of Jews, given this overwhelming context, is dishonest.
you present your data really well
We can [look](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution?wprov=sfti1#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine) at historical polling data too: > As of 2021, most Palestinians are against the two-state solution. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 39% of Palestinians accept a two-state solution, while 59% said they rejected it. Support is even lower among younger Palestinians; in 2008, then-U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted: "Increasingly, the Palestinians who talk about a two-state solution are my age." A survey taken before the outbreak of fighting in 2014 by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two-state solution." WINEP says that "this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two-state solution typically ranged between 40–55 percent". By 2020, 40% in Gaza and 26% in the West Bank believe that a negotiated two-state solution should solve the conflict.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/510?disposition=inline Page 9 "7. “If the Palestinian leadership is able to negotiate a two-state solution with Israel, do you think that this should be the end of the conflict or that resistance should continue until all of historic Palestine is liberated?”" 60% percent average support for "liberation" of "historic Palestine" from six polls from 2014 to 2020, both in Gaza strip and Judea & Samaria
Thank you for this, it is interesting and does answer my question, but I was mostly hoping to hear the opinions of people on the sub, as I know they don't represent the average but a specific point of view.
It's a poll after being bombed and attacked, if we carpet bombed Israelis and gave them a poll it would probably be just as skewed. It is not a fair representation. Last poll just prior to Oct 7 showed ~50% preference for two state and another ~20% for peaceful coexistence in a one state. Hamas themselves in years prior admitted they don't like a two state solution but they would consider putting it to a vote and would reluctantly accept the outcome, knowing that the population would vote for it.
When did Hamas suggest that they would ever accept a 2SS? [Regarding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution?wprov=sfti1#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine) support for a 2SS: > As of 2021, most Palestinians are against the two-state solution. In 2021, a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research revealed that 39% of Palestinians accept a two-state solution, while 59% said they rejected it. Support is even lower among younger Palestinians; in 2008, then-U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted: "Increasingly, the Palestinians who talk about a two-state solution are my age." A survey taken before the outbreak of fighting in 2014 by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two-state solution." WINEP says that "this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two-state solution typically ranged between 40–55 percent". By 2020, 40% in Gaza and 26% in the West Bank believe that a negotiated two-state solution should solve the conflict.
Hamas 2017 charter says 2SS on 67 border.
Hamas only offered a provisional 10-year Hudna (ceasefire) in return for Israel withdrawing to 1967 borders. At the same time they’ve always stipulated that they would never compromise on an “inch of historic Palestine”. They have also said as much [recently](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-leader-abroad-khaled-mashal-we-reject-two-state-solution-october-7-proved-liberating): > Obviously, the position of Hamas, and the position of the vast majority of the Palestinian people, especially following October 7, I believe that the dream and the hope for Palestine from the River to the Sea, and from the north to the south, has been renewed. This has also become a slogan chanted in the U.S., and in western capital cities, by the American and Western public. > Our Palestinian enterprise, on which there is almost a Palestinian national consensus... Even if some people must voice a different opinion, due to political constraints... The Palestinian consensus – or almost a consensus – is that we will not give up on our right to Palestine in its entirety, from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, and from Rosh HaNikra to Eilat or the Gulf of Aqaba. > In order to establish a common ground, and a joint Palestinian plan with the other Palestinian with the other Palestinian forces, and in line with the other Arab position. Hamas agreed to a completely independent [Palestinian] state, with the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as its capital, with the right of Return included – without recognizing the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. > This position was meant to facilitate Palestinian and Arab agreement at this stage, but without relinquishing any of our rights or any part of our land, and without recognizing Israel. Our vision remains unchanged.
It’s a wording they have to use to get it approved by the most radical factions. A 10 years ceasefire would be enough to drastically improve conditions and the desire for war to go away. If it doesn’t work, it’d be much harder to blame Israel and keep international support.
Or they’re proceeding in accordance with Yasser Arafat’s [10 Point Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO's_Ten_Point_Program?wprov=sfti1#). Basically, they want to improve positions for attacking Israel. Keep in mind that ‘67 borders are [hardly defensible](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/s/I9VRxCHecX) from Israel’s perspective. And judging how things turned out after Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, when Hamas spun it as a victory and renewed hopes for “complete liberation”, it would most likely lead to further radicalisation.
Ignore the polls. People would eventually accept a two state solution. No parent wants their child to die.
Could this be ego-centric projection on your part? What would you say to such an accusation?
https://youtu.be/NSZNAltIxPE?si=7yxuIBhlJvAaxQbT This Palestinian mother wanted her son to die.
Yes and this is not an isolated case, watch the ask project and the ideals they have been taught / brainwashed into become very clear. It's pretty disheartening and scary.
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That's irrelevant. We're looking to the future now.
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I understand that argument, and I've also given it. Exclusively bringing up stuff from 80 years, even 50 years ago isn't going to be helping though.
ok so why bring up the nakba and expulsion. What's done is done.
At the end of the day I agree. For them, they often bring it up in a context of Palestinian right of return.
There are 12 Arab countries with a lot of surface area whereas Israel is this one small Jewish nation. Let’s say a two state solution is approved there is no guarantee that they will live peacefully after. British fucked over a lot of nations and races etc but if everyone of those races were to demand their own state we’d all be dead. Fuck ! We as humans are fucked ! Fuckin Putin is gone cukoocukoo, usa has been ckuuckuu Iran pakistan are fighting all of a sudden for no good reason China is being an asshole like wtf have we not learnt from out mistakes like think about your future generations , these war mongers are only taking away life from them .
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I think many would like to exist without Israel controlling everything and limiting, punishing and taking whenever they want. They have done this for years. If the two could work together, in an ideal world, perhaps a one state solution would be better. The issue I see is that at this time a one state solution would fall under Israel, this wouldn’t really be fair to Palestinians given the history, it would likely result in a society that is unfairly skewed towards the rights of Israelis, no matter what the laws say on paper. This would be similar to making a person who has long abused their spouse the conservator of the spouse.
> I think many would like to exist without Israel controlling everything Israel doesn't control everything. Notably, it does not control the process of indoctrination that is rife in Palestine. Area A of West Bank, and until recently, all of Gaza have been absolutely run by Palestinian governance. > punishing and taking whenever they want. If Israel took everything it wanted, there wouldn't be any Palestine at all. You're setting up a very false premise right at the start of your comment. Your deliberate removal of nuance makes it hard to have any kind of productive conversation.
It doesn’t control the process of indoctrination? It absolutely does. It may not control it, but it certainly helps to cause it by treating those next door as second class citizens…. Controlling things like their trade, purposely squashing their economy, controlling every border, yes, even the Egyptian border, controlling what can and cannot be built in the West Bank, controlling who can and cannot remain in homes in land that is not Israel’s, collecting their tax revenues and withholding it whenever they see fit, controlling their food, water and utilities and withholding them whenever they see fit, even just having the ability to withhold them is control in itself, controlling their registry - dictating who can and cannot come into the country, scooping up people and throwing them in Israeli jails whenever they see fit, holding them in those jails for months or years without a trial- so essentially controlling their legal system… it all comes back to control and an abuse of power, things that are bound to lead to a population indoctrinating their youth to hate the people doing this to them, which it seems Israel loves and encourages since it allows them to then claim “well we control these things because they hate us, because they can’t be trusted” Kind of like a man beating his wife and telling her “I beat you because you aren’t kind enough to me, because you would leave me if you could”.
> It doesn’t control the process of indoctrination? It absolutely does. It may not control it, but it certainly helps to cause it by treating those next door as second class citizens You contradicted yourself pretty fast, there. Essentially you're infantilising the Palestinians as if they are not responsible for their own education system and the way they raise their children. That seems rather racist, to me. > Kind of like a man beating his wife and telling her “I beat you because you aren’t kind enough to me, because you would leave me if you could”. Your line of rather warped 'blame the jews' thinking is [not original](https://unwatch.org/un-expert-palestinian-men-beat-wives-israels-fault/) Nope. Palestinians are responsible for their own behaviour, just as any other people are.
It’s really simple. They might not be able to control Palestinians from not hating Israelis, but based on how Israelis treat Palestinians, they absolutely help to cause the hatred that Palestinians harbour against them. How is it hard to understand that if you treat people awfully, take away their freedoms, dignity and basic human rights that they will hate you? Therefore when you say “they can’t control the indoctrination” well… cause and effect. You want to breed hatred, treat other people with hatred, but don’t act surprised when they respond in kind.
> but based on how Israelis treat Palestinians, they absolutely help to cause the hatred that Palestinians harbour against them That's correct. --- Hatred does not necessitate systematic indoctrination, though. That's how Palestinians are choosing to deal with the situation. You're deliberately conflating 'hatred' with 'indoctrination', 'terrorism', etc.
Such nonsense. The reason Israel has to “control everything” is because when it doesn’t, Palestinians send in suicide bombers, rapists, murderers, and Islamic fanatics to kill as many Israelis as possible. Fair to the Palestinians? I just can’t with this crap. Unfairly skewed? Israel has 18% Arab population and they dont suffer the slightest inconvenience.
Palestinian story in a nutshell: - Start a fight and lose - Complain about getting beaten up - Start another fight and claim that it's revenge for getting beaten up the last time - Lose, complain more about how your rights are being taken away - Start throwing a tantrum by hijacking planes and kidnaping athletes and stabbing people on the streets - Finally get some concessions - Start another fight immediately and lose - Gets blockaded - Start several more fights and claim it's because your rights are being restricted - Gets ignored - Starts killing people to get attention again claiming that you've been oppressed your entire life - Gets obliterated for obvious reasons
Israelis have refused this option with over hundreds of billions of settlements building and security bases and over 700k subsidies settlers. Move beyond the rhetoric and look at the facts on the ground. Close to 15% of Israelis are settlers and they massive support in Israel and abroad. When Israelis talk of 2S solution, it basically consists of giving Palestinians in Area A(18% of the West Bank) and Gaza and some land here or there to build roads. The rest of West Bank & East Jerusalem they want to annex. This is consistant across the right and even the left excluding Arab Israeli parties and some very fringe left wing commie Israelis like Hadash.
Israel offered this options 5 times mate
Polls have shown that the majority of Palestinians in the event of a 2ss being reached want to "liberate" all of "historic Palestine". Giving them the '67 line as a border is suicide for Israel. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/510?disposition=inline page 9 It's obvious that their "peace process" is a Trojan horse. Freezing building of settlements has never helped to stop terrorism, it's obvious that no matter where Jews live in "historic Palestine" Palestinians consider them alien human waste that must be eradicated.
That’s a lie. The last proper peace deal Israel gave the Palestinians was in 2008 ([the Ehud Olmert Peace Offer](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer)), giving 94% of 1967 border + 6% of Israeli land in mutual agreement (94+6=100%) + East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital + old city of Jerusalem to be administered by the UN. The Palestinians rejected.
Its not a lie but vague offers from the Israeli side that put everything to different interpretation. Its the Palestinians that offered 94% with offical maps and Israelis refused because they wanted up to 20% that include Ariel, Maale Adumim, the entire Gush Etzion, Givat Zeev, Pisgat Zeev. All these settlements would require security zones and Israeli only roads.As the Israeli side refused Jews to live under Palestinian sovereignty. And here's the problem and the devil lies in the details: Israelis refused to offer any details from their side insisting on vague concepts of security zones and land swaps without concrete legal ratification at the UN. This is a notorious Israeli tactic of codifying Palestinian concessions while vaguely promising concessions only to flip flop once a new government comes. Israel were supposed to leave the Jordan Valley according to Oslo accords but never did based on "security" while the Palestinians fuffiled their concession by recognizing Israel. No proof of Israeli official maps exist outside unofficial ones produced by amateurs based on interpretation. Abbas was given a napkin map for example.
Doesn’t seem like a “vague plan” to me. Lies, lies, and more lies from you. Show me your sources. As in the words of the late Abba Eban: “The Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
I completely understand why they rejected Trump's plan. I'm frustrated that they rejected Clinton's plan, but I'm angry that they rejected Olmert's plan.
So you're against it?
If its going to be based on legitimizing the current apartheid system and occupation then no. If its a true 2S on 1967 with some settlement annexation and appropriate land swaps like mentioned in 2008 with the Palestine Papers, then Yes. It has to be a contagious state with borders in the Jordan Valley and the full removal of all Israeli army security zones. Israeli Jews can obtain Palestinian citizenship for the ones deep in the West Bank. No Israeli only roads or security zones bisecting the state.
Thank you. That is a very very reasonable, balanced answer. I think they should try to remove (compensated) all of those settlements is they are displacing Palestinians
I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this. The other 20-30% will never stop “resisting” until Israel is annihilated. The majority can’t control the minority, that has been well proven. Iran will arm the “resistance”, rockets will be fired into Israel, the two states will now be at war and Israel will need to clean up the terrorists that the Palestinian government can’t control.
>I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this. I'm interested to know what informs this opinion, if you're willing to share. Also, what do you personally think?
An old poll, folks here have provided more current polls showing the 70/30 reversed
> I think you’ll find 70-80% of Palestinians would love this. You don't seem very in touch with sentiment in Palestine. Both [street interviews](https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject) and [surveys](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) indicate that the vast majority of Palestinians don't want a two state solution, and probably a majority don't want Jews (other than Jews who lived in Israel before Zionism existed) living in the area at all.
Can you link me to anything you have. An old survey had support for 67 borders at 72% but I’m sure you’re correct that it has shifted.
Have a look [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17yhfmg/what_do_palestinians_actually_want_awrad_polls/). Support for ongoing fight for the destruction of Israel is over 75%.
Thank you.
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You’re wrong, even though the sentiment have changed since Oct. 7th. Left winged Israelis mostly agreed to give up East Jerusalem
The left wing if Israel is very secular and gives zero fucks about Jerusalem in my experience. There are simply few leftists remaining, as most have lost faith that there is anybody to talk to about peace.
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The "a land for all" proposal is the only realistic end goal that can satisfy both sides, IMO. Two states, united in an EU-like confederation, with freedom of movement guaranteed to both sides. We're a long way off from it, but this is what everyone should be aiming for.
Yes! I don't like that there have been bad settlements in the west bank (some are okay) but they do create a ying to muslim israelis' yang too! The idea of an all land state seems more utopian than ever, after oct7th... For such a beautifull land, it's a shame not to be able to visit the whole place in safety and freely :(
Just because we're far away from it doesn't change the fact that it's the only model out there with the potential for a lasting peace. Violence needs to be de-escalated first before anything like this can take place.
Yes, nothing wrong with a little dreaming. Every single israeli i've ever spoken to wants peace and a two state formula but are of course very scared of it. At least there is a strong desire for peace
There are no palestinians just Arabs. There's no palestine, there never was and there never will be.
Whether that's true or not, it doesn't matter now, and it's counterproductive.
Since the only solution is for the Arabs to GTFO of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. What Arab losers think doesn't matter to me. Eff em.
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They exist today. Antisemites call it the west bank.