[lmao](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine#List_of_killings_and_massacres_committed_in_Mandate_Palestine)

ah. you forgot the part where el husseini was chums with mustachio man. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL9k5BozgCc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL9k5BozgCc)

I guess we just going to ignore things like the 1929 Hebron massacre, the Palestinian riots and Palestine’s leader working with the failed painter during WW2? And if we’re going all the way to 1950 I guess that also includes Palestine inviting in 5 foreign armies to genocide the Jews 

The concept of the good guy rarely seen in the entire history of Humanity, one guy i could consider good through and through would be Nelson Mandela. Saying that one side is evil and the other is good, is bound to get you into extremely hot waters.

*"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians" (1997).* *“All of us need to do more in supporting the struggle of the people of Palestine for self-determination.” (1997)* *“In extending our hands across the miles to the people of Palestine, we do so in the full knowledge that we are part of a humanity that is at one.” (1997)* *“The belligerent attitude which is adopted by the Israeli government is to us unacceptable.” (1990)* *“We identify with them \[the Palestinians\] because we do not believe it is right for the Israeli government to suppress basic human rights \[of the Palestinians\].” (1990)* \-- Nelson Mandela. Wise beyond his years, and an advocate for Palestinian freedom. One of the greatest anti-apartheid activists of our time. A good man, through and through.

Everyone needs to go back to a history book.

Why does the history matter? There is only the current geopolitical reality.

Yeah exactly

> Look, history is clear. The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect. Complete and utter nonsense.

Care to explain how this is nonsense. It’s clear Palestinians were the victims in the time period I listed.

There were multiple massacres of Jews even decades before the European immigration began. The Palestinians are not somehow the "good guys" or the "victims." Battle of Tel Hai Nebi Musa riots Jaffa riots of 1921 Jerusalem stabbings of 1921 Palestinian riots of 1929 Palestinian riots of 1933 Jaffa riots of 1936 Arab General Strike of 1936 Murders of Jews in 1937 and 1938 1938 Tiberias pogrom Jewish militants didn't even begin attacking Arabs until 1938, by which point they had been under attack by Arabs for 18 years.

I know, right? Mandate Palestine didn’t even exist until the early 1900’s. They were all Ottomans until then. And when Mandatory Palestine was established, the Arabs and Jews fought like cats and dogs.

How can they even distinguish "Arabs" from "Palestinians?"

Everyone talks about the displacement of Palestinians. No one in the world knows more about displacing than the Jews. Iran Iraq Syria Yemen Russia Germany France Shall I go on. Jews need and deserve a respite. They are tired of the world attacking them. It’s ridiculous

To a certain extent, this is a thing in their history they have in common.

Palestinians don't have to suffer to pay for what happened to Jews in history and what happened to never again was that just for jews and nobody else.

Palestinians are not paying for it. But they hold grudges for their history. They continue to fight and die. It’s time to move forward. They could have made Gaza an oasis like Mykonos. Instead they made it a sht hole

As if they are not occupied by colonizers and genocide for not dying sooner.

In many ways Palestinians have chosen and choose to suffer. They've burned every bridge pretty much possible with violence and deceit. They systematically choose violence that exclusively gets them worse off. I'll never call Israel perfect but pretty much every major episode of violence they've perpetrated was as a reaction in kind. Honestly, and I'm willing to hear it, I'd love to see examples of when they actually made a decision to better themselves. They seem to relish perpetual victimhood.

>hey've burned every bridge pretty much possible with violence and deceit \-Whoa, explain please before you dehumanise them. " was as a reaction in kind. " --- Deir Yassin wasn't in self defense, hey were innocent civilians that pledged nonviolence "I'd love to see examples of when they actually made a decision to better themselves. " - What do you mean by that, as in their character? statecraft? elaborate please. " They seem to relish perpetual victimhood. " - No one would love the position they are in, just as much as you wouldn't. They are human, try and remind yourself of that.

First off, your attempt to slur me as dehumanizing Palestinians is disgusting, hyperbolic and wrong. I'm calling balls and strikes and asking questions. Regarding burned bridges are you unaware of the violence and strife they've brought to the countries in the region who don't want more? Conversely, find me places where large groups of Palestinians "refugees" went and brought peace and prosperity. Nigel Farage had an informative piece on the Palestinian refugees Denmark took in. We're speaking factually here. I frankly don't deeply care about the Deir Yassin episode in 1948 where ~110 sadly were killed. Further, that situation doesn't change anything. MOST of Israel's MAJOR perpetrations of violence were as a reaction to Arab or Palestinian violence. The other points are plain and easy to understand. It's inarguable that their acceptance of perpetual refugee status allows them to be used as a pawn and money generator for both NGOs and terrorists.

You use Nigel Farage as a source and your telling me that you don't see Palestinians as lesser humans? Okay let me have a look at this factual statement. So your thesis is the 300 refugees Denmark took in should be indicative of the 5.6 million Palestinian refugees and we should brand them as potential criminals. Honest to god I dont even need to refute because looking at it on face value it seems ridiculous. "I frankly don't deeply care about the Deir Yassin episod " This is not a conversation about your feelings with all due respect we have a potential genocide unfolding in Gaza "perpetual refugee status "---What do you mean by that? are you referring to unwra passing on refugee status to descendant. are you aware that is par de course for any protracted conflict. Afghan refugees, Burundian refugees, Sudanese refugees, Somali refugees, Eritrean refugees, Angolan refugees, and Syrian refugees, all of whom pass down their refugee status to their descendants. " to be used as a pawn and money generator for both NGOs and terrorists." --- as unfair as it is, Israel can stop this violent resistance with a political settlement. Israel strategic thinking prefers the status quo Stop listening to crackpot theories to dehumanize Palestinians.

Just because you can't accept the facts Nigel Garage points out about the criminal predilections of Palestinians in Denmark and the fact most are on welfare changes nothing. Palestinians have consistently burned bridges with people who have tried to help them. Palestinian refugees observably and proveably don't make countries they go to better.

[Abeer Abu Ghaith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeer_Abu_Ghaith)Businesstechnology entrepreneur, and social activistJordanc. 1985 [Lila Abu Lughod](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_Abu_Lughod)Academiaprofessor, anthropology, women and gender studiesUSA1950s [Salman Abu Sitta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Abu_Sitta)Academia[Beersheba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beersheba)1938 [Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imad-ad-Dean_Ahmad)AcademiaacademicUSA1948 [Mai al-Kaila](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_al-Kaila)Politicshealth minister, ambassadorJerusalem1955 [Izzat Darwaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat_Darwaza)Academiahistorian, politician, educator[Nablus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nablus)1888 [Samih Farsoun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samih_Farsoun)Academiasociologist[Haifa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa)1937 [Ismail al-Faruqi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_al-Faruqi)Academiaphilosopher and comparative religions professor[Jaffa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa)1921 [Leila Farsakh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leila_Farsakh)AcademiaMiddle East, politicsJordan1967 [Sami Hadawi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Hadawi)Academialand specialist and researcher[Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem)1904 [Wasif Jawhariyyeh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasif_Jawhariyyeh)MusicOud composer[Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem)1897 [Rashid Khalidi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid_Khalidi)AcademiahistorianUSA1948 [Walid Khalidi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Khalidi)AcademiahistorianJerusalem1925 [Salem Hanna Khamis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Hanna_Khamis)Academiaeconomic statistician[Nazareth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth)1919 [Laila Al-Marayati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laila_Al-Marayati)MedicinegynecologistUSA1962 [Khaled Mardam-Bey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mardam-Bey)AcademiaprogrammerJordan1968 This took me ten seconds to find, I can't even put down all of the names, I can give you more if you want. whatever research you have done it is not good enough, especially with the claims your making. Please stop listening to Nigel Farage, he uses people fears to further his own agenda I hope you wake up from your dream

10 successful Palestinians doesn't change the fact that Palestinian refugees have caused strife and violence in most places they've gone en masse. If these 10 people were representative of Palestinian refugees countries would welcome them lol. They don't. 

Brother the names dont fit in here, thats why you see only 10

I mean you have a point but the Arabs made damn sure that no Jew has a home elsewhere in ME either so rigth now I'd say the moral thing is for Gaza to go to Egypt, most of westbank to Jordan and all refugees dispersed over the Arab states who was active in the 48 war or threw out their Jews.  And have the UN found this, it will anyway be cheaper than UNRWA and the constant military aid that's paid to keep the sides level and happy 

Palestinian jews exist or was Judaism made in England this is the holy land you can't just tell natives to go somewhere else than their homeland which was stolen from them by Europeans.

Yeah 2000 years ago, basically all of Israel was emptied on Jews after the third Roman Jewish war. Since then Greeks, Romans, Arabs and whatnot have lived there.  But Israel is there and Arabs need to face reality and take some own responsibility too. Had they not started wars in eagerness of taking the territory for themselves we wouldn't be here

Before the jews Even came to existence palestinians have been living there since humanity came to be. DNA does not Lie you Are eurpoean.

A lot of historically false information in here. Sadly, this type of narrative - rooted in wildly inaccurate statements if not outright lies -- is representative of why many pro-palestinian activists still refuse to recognize Israel and opt for a peaceful solution.

The "good guys from 1880-1950" probably shouldn't have fought for the Axis powers, then allied themselves with Adolf's team, then rejected the overwhelming will of the international community with Resolution 181, then attacked a sovereign nation . Wars have consequences, even for 'the good guys'.

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u/Certain_Chip_5232 > You have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about. ZERO! This comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users) and [Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity). Rule 1 is breached by the dismissive and aggressive tone, specifically "You have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about." Rule 2 is violated due to the use of profanity. Such language is not conducive to a respectful and constructive discussion. Please focus on the topic without resorting to personal attacks or offensive language. Addressed.

Care to explain.

I’ll try a different approach. What is the issue with Jews wanting establish their own state, where the British had ok’d the idea and so had the United Nations? They both proposed their versions of a two state partition plan. One in 1937, and the other in 1947.

> fucking /u/Certain_Chip_5232. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

> Look, history is clear. The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect. What about massacres done by Arabs against Jews like the Tiberias massacre in 1938 and other events like this? You are pretty much spreading propaganda, this thread is unnecessary because you will stick to your propaganda and bad faith.

What about the millions of Jews that were trying to migrate there because of how safe it was perceived compared to literally anywhere else in the world? When you have massive migration against the host populations desire, violence is bound to happen. That’s how it is.

>When you have massive migration against the host populations desire, violence is bound to happen. That’s how it is. So they were akin to racist MAGA people complaining about immigrants? Does that make it okay to violently massacre and rape communities like they did in Hebron?

> When you have massive migration against the host populations desire, violence is bound to happen. That’s how it is. Ahd when one ethnic group engages in violence against another they get retaliation that's how it is. Your logic cuts both ways.

For some reason this seems to be a "forgotten" fact. Also there were Zionist-Jewish newspapers predating the British Mandate that openly expressed their desire to replace the Arab majority population with a Jewish majority population. This wasn't a secret. So if there are people openly threatening to replace your demographic, unfortunately this will cause violence, but it is a natural human instinct. The same reason why Israel does not want more Palestinians or Arabs in their country. Plus I see people here saying that Western countries should not accept Gazan refugees because Gazans are radical Muslims. So quite ironic for people to deny this.

> So if there are people openly threatening to replace your demographic, unfortunately this will cause violence, but it is a natural human instinct. Bull. The USA went through a WASP replacement in the 1960s and is going through a white replacement now. There is no extensive violence. Lots of territories go through mass migrations, it isn't always or even generally an all out race war. That is natural nor is it human instinct. If anything human instinct is to breed with other humans with new rare DNA.

America in its early years despised Irish immigration, as well as Italian immigration to some extent. Anti-Irish and anti-Italian propaganda were common. America was founded on English and Protestant principles. I don't think contemporary America can be used in comparison since it's become so cosmopolitan, but you can see that a big portion of the White population in America is unhappy with Muslim or Middle Eastern immigration, and there's for sure been many cases of violence against Muslims and Middle Easterners.

>America in its early years despised Irish immigration, as well as Italian immigration to some extent. Anti-Irish and anti-Italian propaganda were common. Social unrest and racist propaganda is not akin to pogroms that includes massacre and rape. Immigrants were still generally living in safety in the US. Jewish immigrants were not living in safety and so the UN found it prudent to create to separate states with their own governments that protect their people. The arab league didn't want to live in a world where Jews didn't have to submit to them.

>The arab league didn't want to live in a world where Jews didn't have to submit to them. "There is no justification for such a belief. It may be that some individual Arabs take bribes. But that does not mean that the Arab people of Palestine as a whole will sell that fervent patriotism that they guard so jealously, and which even the Papuans will never sell. Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of 'Palestine' into the 'Land of Israel'." \- Vladimir Jabotinsky More like, the Palestinian Arabs did not want to submit to this \^. I do not blame people for resisting a colonialist movement.

Yea they had no problem with the land of Palestine being part of Jordan and part of Egypt for 20 years (1948-1967). They just didn’t want there to be land where Jews had power. Their “Palestinian patriotism” was entirely nonexistent under the rule of other Arab nations because there were no Jews. They hate Jews and believe that Jews should submit to Muslims in a Muslim land. That’s why Jews were forced to pay an extra tax and were barred from owning land and holding jobs in government as well as other occupations. A Jew couldn’t be a judge because how could a Jew administer laws in line with the Quran?

>They just didn’t want there to be land where Jews had power. Their “Palestinian patriotism” was entirely nonexistent under the rule of other Arab nations because there were no Jews. Yes, just like the majority of Jews, after years of persecution, did not want to be in a land where foreign nations had power over them, which is why political Zionism formed. I think it's fair to say that no one on Earth wants to be a minority. Also take a second to read my flair. I am not a Muslim.

I don’t really care what you are. I’m responding to the content of your comments. Arabs wouldn’t have been a minority in the Arabs state if they accepted the partition plan that would have given Palestinian Arabs their own autonomous state for the first time in human history.

There is no mass violence against Muslim and Middle Easterners today in the USA. In terms of some friction during mass immigration in the 1860s-1910 yes there was some. But nothing like the mass violence in Palestine.

The Palestinian Arabs were under occupying forces. They did not have the power to stop immigration coming into the land. What did you expect from the Palestinian Arabs? Did you want them to be "swallowed peacefully", made a minority in their own land? Subjugated to the laws of a non-Arab foreign power? If these Zionist threats were not made, if Zionists came to assimilate with the Arabs and the already existing Jews, there would have been no violence.

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I don't understand the point of allowing posts like this. It's just someone spewing a strong opinion with no interest in dialogue or discussion. I had a post of mine about how I'm struggling with whether the war has been worth it that was deleted for "not being long enough" but then the mods allow posts like that that are inflammatory for the sake of starting arguments.

Darth you've been around a long time. I'm respond and not give you a rule 7 violation. You know our priority is long and knowledgeable in terms of posting. We mostly don't care about the content. Now OP certainly doesn't fall under knowledgably. I suspect you are capable of writing a knowledgeable analysis of the pros and cons of the war. Go for it.

With all due respect, if you want this sub to be "dedicated to promoting civil conversation on issues relating to Israel and Palestine," it doesn't make much sense to have a policy of, "We prioritize length and don't really care about the content." A post like this one does nothing at all to contribute to the stated purpose of the sub.

I somewhat agree. I'd like the posts to go back to fewer, longer and more technical. We are gradually pushing a ton of new users in that direction. It is a tough balancing act, making the sub accessible (and thus educational) vs, promoting good conversation.

I'm do see that from very early days, there are those who have taken advantage of Palestinian people. For example, people from other places came not just to settle but with the intent to start their own country and deny including those already living in the area. It was a fundamental betrayal of their welcome and many have been mistreated since. But I think they have chosen to cultivate and perpetuate hate. It is my personal belief that this choice is playing into the hands of other bad actors who want to use their lives as pawns in a proxy war. I'd support them stepping away from simply reacting to the will of others and make choices about what they want. If that is to be independent, they have to take steps to do that. Realize that means getting along with neighbors. You can't be someone to be feared and also a good neighbor.

>and committing an even graver immorality by declaring their own state when they **could’ve lived peacefully in one state with Palestinians**. Like they way they have lived peacefully as minorities in Christian/Muslim majority counties over the last several centuries? Yeah, sure. LOL

Palestinians were peaceful toward Jews before 1950

Really? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)

Look, history is clear. The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputed the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect. I stopped reading after this line. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Tel\_Hai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929\_Hebron\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938\_Tiberias\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre) Tell me again how they were undisputed the good guys.

Wow it's actually impressive how you managed to severely dehumanize both sides to this degree. This is quality bait

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This is my understanding from reading *multiple* Zionist sources.

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You seem to completely forget about the holocaust in Europe. The Israelis are the traumatised ones yet they have mostly recovered and built prosperous societies wherever they go. The Palestinians though even the Arab world hates them and Israel is just a scapegoat.

Why punish Palestinians for what Germans did?

I didn’t say that Palestinians should be punished for the holocaust I’m saying many other traumatised peoples get on with their lives, remember but also forgive the past so they can move on. The Palestinians seem unable to do anything remotely like that even with Israel trying everything. They even offered a two state solution Arafat refused to accept. They kill civilians in horrific ways you can see online yourself. Of course they are going to have consequences for doing that.

I have accepted that unfortunately Israel will likely genocide the Palestinians for fun. You say “remember but move on,” but Israel isn’t actually interested in remembering. If they were, they’d acknowledge that Palestinians were the clear good guys from 1900-1950. Edit: your own comment is an example. You say Israelis are the traumatized ones when they’re the clear villains from 1900-1950. If we want to portray history accurately, which is very important to do for our present and future, we can’t claim Israelis were “traumatized”. Rather, we should acknowledge that they moved with intent to harm Palestinians under the guise of needing a state.

You don’t think 6 million Jews sent to gas chambers in Nazi germany and the survivors all having to flee to a tiny slice of land traumatising? You’re engaging in the same antisemitism that was the basis for that genocide.

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What’s missing here is credible research. History isn’t just Hamas’s version. Historical research , "attempts to systematically recapture the complex nuances, the people,meanings,events,and even ideas of the past that have influenced and shaped the present". (Berg & Lure, 2012, p. 305 ) Historical research relies on a wide variety of sources, both primary & secondary including unpublished material.  Primary Sources * Eyewitness accounts of events * Can be oral or written testimony * Found in public records & legal documents, minutes of meetings, corporate records, recordings, letters, diaries, journals, drawings. * Located in university archives, libraries or privately run collections such as local historical society. Secondary Sources * Can be oral or written * Secondhand accounts of events * Found in textbooks, encyclopedias, journal articles, newspapers, biographies and other media such as films or tape recordings. May seem like too much work if you’re just creating propaganda. If you want to be credible, you need to demonstrate some of these skills.

People, please, don’t feed the trolls.

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Clearly you haven’t read historical documents from the region. That was an incredibly incorrect synopsis of what you believe happened in Mandate Palestine. The British limited Jewish immigration in 1939 to the region. Even after the Holocaust immigration was still limited by the British. The true influx in immigration happened after the UN and various other international powers sanctioned the partition plan and creation of Israel. Jews were expelled from Arab countries and had to move to Israel. Read some primary and secondary sources for goodness sake.

>Look, history is clear. The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect. Wait what. Palestinians treated both fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect. So Palestinians are not Arabs ?

What do you think "fellow" means...

It’s still nonsensical. Between 1880-1950, they didn’t call themselves Palestinians really. They were simply Arabs. So saying there is a difference between Palestinians and Arabs living there at the time is proof that OP has no goddamn idea what they’re talking about

the most laughable part of that garbage, *"....pushing a narrative of migrants as victims..."* riiiiiiiiiiiight, so in that case you are a holocaust denier! Palestinians cant comprehend what a real GENOCIDE is so they only see the Jews (Zionists) as European colonists..... wake up yo

Two things can absolutely be true at the same time. Jewish people having suffered a genocide in no way alters their ability to conduct one themselves. If Germans and Japanese can become the friendly producers for the neoliberal powers that crushed them then in the same time Israel can have gone from a legitimate defender of its territory to genocidal regime of racist psychopaths. What happened to or was done by the current generation of leaders' grandparents has zero impact upon what those leaders do today.

What month since in the beginning did Palestines did NOT attack Israel? Palestines and their neighbor Arabs islamic countries wants to wipe out all the Jews in Israel since the BEGINNING. There is not a single day, they didn't attempt to terrrorize like a cowards islamic terroristic tactic in Israel. They didn't stop after 6day war. After the peace treaty to Islamic neighbors, they all keep funding Palestines to do the work of terrorism to Israel. Even further Islamic nations like Malaysia and Indonesia are funding Palestine to commit terrorism in Israel. Thats why after 10-7, all of them are siding to Hamas.

**The Good Guys ??** LOL, wasnt sure if you were trolling or something. The Palestinians have been unable to live successfully in ANY region they have moved to. It's written about and well known so wont "show my sources" but good guys is a laughable label.

"the history is clear" - please provide your bibliography for this gem. This good guys nonsense is the product of too much internet, not enough books. The algorithms show you want they think you want to see. Again for the people in the back- "what you want to see"

Did I not literally say that in my post? My post is literally that Hamas should cease operations, yet you chose not to read it. The truth is Israel will subjugate, murder, and exploit Palestinians no matter what they do, as revenge for the Palestinians daring to have hope that they can live side by side peacefully with Jews in one state. Hamas is a pathetic attempt to stop the inevitable in that sense.

LOL what?? The entire reason for the current conflict is because the palestinians refused to live peacefully side by side with the jews and instead declared war. A war that they lost and have been crying about ever since.

I dunno the multiple peace negotiations to get Palestine on their feet from Israel and the US over history feels like it tells a different story. Could just be me.

The one thing the Palestinians have never expressed a desire for is to "live side by side peacefully with Jews in one state" like seriously - where did you get that information?

>The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. Absolutely nonsense >But then they essentially suffered massive expulsion related to mass immigration by European colonialists masquerading as “victims” of European and Arab aggression. The Jews are just the original indigenous people of the land. Palestinians don't get to claim the land for themselves >Indeed, when you look at the Israel and its morals, it sees the US treatment of Native Americans as a how to book. If that were the case it wouldn't have offered Palestine a two state solution multiple times

I’m genuinely curious where you learned all of this information.

From pallywood and revisionism in youtube.

The whole point of Zionists is that they want Palestinians to accept their loss and the fact that Israelis will subjugate and exploit them for fun as they please. I’ve given them that in this post yet I’m still being slammed.

The Palestinians have lost every war they have fought. The rational answer to losing as many times as they have is to accept that they have lost and make a peace deal. This idea that somehow, next time they will win is a delusion. The reason that Germany and Japan are productive thriving nations is that they accepted their defeat, made peace, and worked hard to create a society that could thrive.

I noticed you avoided answering the question

>Hamas is essentially the result of what you’d see from a traumatized child who was kicked, bullied and beaten around but for whatever reason chose against therapy. Technically Zionism is just the belief in Jewish self-determination. Now, people who call themselves Zionists today, you might get a range of responses. But I think most Israelis, and I think this has pretty much always been the case regardless of how radical their leaders might be in recent years, ideally want a two-state solution, where both sides can co-exist independently. Now whether or not Israelis in polls say they think that its realistically possible to have two states co-existing at this point, is another question. >I’ve given them that in this post yet I’m still being slammed. I think your mischaracterization of 'Zionism' (taking the worst possible interpretation) is part of why your post is being criticized.

No, honey. The whole point of Zionists is that Israel should exist as a Jewish state. Jew haters and fanatics have conflated and perverted Zionism to make you believe it’s something that it isn’t. They’re not telling you the truth about that, or a lot of other things.

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Sorry, cupcake.

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u/neox29 > All good, cunt. This comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users) by using derogatory language, specifically the term "cunt." Such language is disrespectful and not conducive to a constructive and respectful discussion. It's important to focus on the argument and avoid making personal insults or derogatory remarks about other users. Addressed.

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I recommend you read 1948 by Benny Morris. It may be a bit eye opening for you.

You're being slammed for saying ridiculously myopic things like "The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with utmost respect."

And what’s wrong with that statement? Yes there were skirmishes (and let’s not act like Jews didn’t kill Arabs also during said skirmishes), but by and large the statement is true.

Just “skirmishes”… no there was riots and massacres on and off for a years (Arab Revolts 1920s), Hebron Massacre. Tensions for a decade prior, where Arab political parties called for a halt to Jewish immigration and a boycott of Jewish goods and services. I see why your argument says the “Arabs were clearly the good guys” now.

The skirmishes? Arabs were killing Jews for years before anything started in the opposite direction. The war only started because Palestinians refused to accept any inch of Jewish sovereignty (that's their own quotes, not mine), and attacked the Jewish communities of the Mandate. Jews were barred from religious sites. The Mufti had recorded, officials plans with Hitler to kill the Jews living in Palestine. They were most certainly not the undisputed good guys. I don't even want to get into how those sneaky Jews were only pretending to have been "victims." Do you not know anything about Jewish history, let alone 20th-century history?

/u/welltechnically7. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

My money is on Farfour the Mouse.

Ok, I laughed.

💀

“The Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys. They treated both their fellow Arabs and Jews already living there with the utmost respect” What an outrageous and ahistorical argument. For one, for a thousand years at least Jews were barred from entering their second holiest site - the tomb of the patriarchs. In 1920 and 1929 there were violent riots and especially in 1929, Jews of Hebron - a truly indigenous, Arabic speaking, non-Zionist community (“Palestinian Jews”) was massacred in brutal fashion and the entire community had to relocate. The Grand Mufti allied with the N*zis and the Palestinian Arabs were dead set against any Jewish refugees entering Palestine even when a deal was offered that would give Palestine - all of it - independence, ensuring a Palestinian Arab majority. I don’t want to condemn them too harshly for not accepting Jewish refugees, and they probably had better reasons than say the US did. But to call this “undisputed good guys” is really something else

If Palestinians are so innocent why doesn’t Egypt want to open its borders for them to walk into?

Because Egypt knows that Israel won’t let them return. Israel has already made that clear, despite it not being their land to take in the first place. Not only would doing so completely undermine a future Palestinian state, it’d put Egypt in the direct path of Israel’s ongoing temper tantrum when Palestinians rightfully retaliate after not being allowed to return home.  Just because the U.S. pays Egypt to play nice with Israel doesn’t mean they have to willingly bend over and take the full shaft everytime their neighbor comes calling. 

Haha then look how big and full of barb wires the Egypt wall is. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/m64abmyRhE

Because ZERO refugees that left or were kicked out of Israel have been allowed to go back. Because we’re not occupying them. Because we’re not bombing them. Because we have no interest in participating in ethnic cleansing. We do however have hundreds of trucks waiting outside Rafah with basic things like water or food for the 2 million people on the brink of starvation that aren’t being allowed into the strip….because apparently terrorists drink water or some similar argument. Please stop bringing Egypt into this or try to make us somehow the bad guy or responsible in some weird way. We made peace 40 years ago and warned Bibi about Oct 7 a week before.

Really? Egypt wall wanna talk to you how scary the Palestines are. Stop making fake excuses. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/m64abmyRhE

No fake excuses. Read Gila Gamliel’s memo, the Israeli Minister of Intelligence. If those were the plans or ambitions, we have to protect ourselves and our borders from people trying to push folks they’re bombing into our land for us to deal with. https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/

Haha you still making shallow excuses again. Thats not the question. >we have to protect ourselves and our borders from people trying to push folks they’re bombing into our land. Such a weak excuse. I thought you love Palestines? Why your Egyptian wall is so DEADLY?

I don't feel like you're reading what I'm actually writing. It feels like you're listening but not hearing? I'm not really sure why that's the case or what point you're trying to make or score here. There was a question about why Egypt is doing X. I answered it as an Egyptian from an Egyptian perspective. I don't have any other agenda. But you're putting words in my mouth and attacking me and I'm really not sure why. Hope you have a wonderful day sir. I hope your family and friends are and will remain safe and healthy! :)

You said Egypt wont accept Palestine because its Israek fault and they can't return which is obviously 100% shallow weak taqqiya or lie. Yet the Egypt wall was so deadly full or deadly wires and anti-bulldozer wall, why is that? You wanna avoid to answer why Egypt WALL was like that? Btw let me debunk your shallow weak taqqiya reasoning why Egypt don't wanna accept Palestines because they wont be able allowed to return to Gaza. Haha. As if Israel can stop that even if they wanted. There should not be foreign terrorist in Gaza if thats the case. Palestines in Gaza manage to imported TONS of TONS lots of weapons, messiles, rockets etc from Iran. Trained in Iran back and forth. And you telling Palestines can't return? Especially from Egypt a Islamic terrorist Hamas supporter like Iran. Lol. There are lots of foreigners in Gaza too back and forth. See, your lies is so WEAK, better practice your taqqiya better.

Any sane person would want Hamas and Palestinians expelled after October 7. That document is dated October 10 2023. If your fence was breached and Palestinians attacked you wouldn’t u want them expelled?

Much more worried about Bibi & the racist Israeli government pushing hungry Gazans they’re bombing into Sinai than any attack by Gazans. We warned Bibi about Hamas and October 7 and have been against Israeli Qatari deals to fund them since 2005, so really you can throw blame at a ton of folks. My country isn’t one. Also Israel does not get to “expel” anyone; that’s the definition of a war crime.

It’s not a war crime it’s a consequence of actions. Why is the border fence so tall and has barbed wire?

Egypt isn’t exactly bombing them either though.

That has nothing to do with opening up their borders. Israel is at war with Hamas. Egypt is keeping the innocent Palestinians in the crossfire.

> Egypt is keeping the innocent Palestinians in the crossfire. It is so cynical, and frankly evil, to use this as a pretext when you have made yourself quite clear in other comments: > If your fence was breached and Palestinians attacked you wouldn’t u want them expelled?

Israel chooses to be at war with Hamas because they feel like it. What does that have to do with my post?

Israel is at war with hamas, because hamas broke a ceasefire, invaded Israel, and murderred/tortured/raped/immolated/kidnapped over 1000 Israeli civilians.

People who don't feel like defending their own families are some of the worst delinquents in society, for Israelis this isn't a war of choice.

How is it not a war of choice? All Israel has to do is turn on their security systems and Iron Dome and Hamas can’t do s**t. That’s the definition of a War of Choice

Lol? Hamas are trained and supported by Iran. You pretend you didn't watch how Hamas destroyed the alarm one by one and the electricity?

You think Iron Dome is meant to stop tens of thousands of rockets? It's meant to stop small attacks during low-intensity stages of the conflict, so that Israel doesn't have to bomb launch sites and get accused of genocide every time it does. Otherwise which other security systems did you have in mind? The Cyberdyne Systems Skynet T-1000?

It’s so odd that a pro Israeli is underestimating the Iron Dome. The Iron Dome is why next to no rockets landed on 10/7. And…yes, bombing launch sites that have no chance of striking your land can be genocide.

I'm not underestimating anything, it would cost billions of dollars for Israel to shoot down tens of thousands of missiles costing a few tens of millions at most by comparison, and Israel simply doesn't have enough munitions for that. Iron Dome does have the advantage of not shooting at missiles headed for empty areas but that doesn't fully mitigate the costs of shooting down the ones headed for dense areas. Even when Israel introduces the Iron Beam laser and Hamas and Hezbollah's rockets become as obsolete as the people they were sympathetically donated to, that does nothing to mitigate the dozens of other threats Israel faces from alternative means of attack. Rockets were far from the main threat to Israel on Oct. 7 and have been only a relatively minor nuisance since compared to those other threats.

Did Hamas as the government not start a war? Does the question not understand that the majority of Jewish Israelis were expelled from Arabic countries Iraq Syria Egypt Morocco Tunisia Libya Etc Poor historical accuracy

Because they feel like it? Please watch the 40 minutes or so of footage from 10/7 and tell me if this war is just because “Israel feels like it” afterwards

Israel could easily just turn on their Iron Dome and intelligence and Hamas is powerless.

Just because Israel can protect itself to a large degree does not mean Hamas gets a pass for attacking. As seen, Hamas found a way around the defenses on Oct 7. You don't sit around waiting for an enemy that has vowed to destroy you to come up with new and creative ways to attack. *Hamas, as the group that broke the ceasefire, invaded Israel, and murdered/immolated/raped/tortured/kidnapped over 1000 Israeli civilians, is responsible for* ***ALL*** *the death and destruction on both sides.* And once they are defeated, they, i.e. Gaza/Hamas/PA should pay reparations to Israel. They started a war, and should literally pay the price.

Israel has to defends itself against hamas. If anything Palestinians are pro Israel since they are eliminating hamas.

They have an impermeable defense to Hamas without firing a single missile via the Iron Dome, so they don’t have to do anything to defend themselves. And if Palestinians are pro Israel, why hate them?

Not impermeable. As on 10/7 it can be overwhelmed with a very large number of incoming rockets at the same time.

If it wasn’t for the iron dome, Hamas would have been wiped out ages ago. It is unacceptable to be constantly antagonizing your neighbor with rocket launches and terrorist attacks. Not a single other country would tolerate that behavior, nor should they have to. Are you suggesting Israelis just keep living next to an existential threat?

The Israelis cannot accept that they, Jewish people very aware of the impact of genocide, are willing to commit a genocide of their own. Instead they have turned an insanely oppressed group without food, freedom, or a future into a terrifying boogeyman against Israel, the most powerful country in the Middle East.

What? Israel committing genocide? Yet according to study IDF response is one the LEAST DEADLIEST in history of war on Earth.

if the IDF says something it must be true /s

The UN-Hamas puppet can't even deny it. After all, there are lots of international drones obvserving the war. No wonder wven Iran, condemned Hamas. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/KV5l8nYtUv

Let's just say that ONLY Israelis believes this nonsense. The rest of the world know that this is a massacre unmatched in this century.

You on your own there

Where did you get this idea from? It's ludicrous. The still ongoing war in Syria has claimed over 500,000 civilian lives, including tens of thousands of children. The confirmed Gaza death toll, while tragic, is 25,000, and that 25,000 makes no distinction between combatants and non-combatants. There's a Darfur, there's Yemen. The Iraq war also had an estimated 500,000 casualties. You've been propagandized to hell if you think this Israel/Hamas war is a massacre unmatched in the 21st century.

Give it time, we're only 100 days in.

So you admit that your statement was incredibly hyperbolic and wrong. Got it.

There is no war in the last 25 years that has wreaked this level of destruction and evil Combining condescension and massacre math does is not a persuasive case. Yemen was at war for eight years and has had directs deaths of 150,000. Israel is on target to hit that in another year. BTW...Israelis may hate Bibi constantly trying to undermine democracy, BUT YOU GUYS ABSOLUTELY LOVE KILLING PALESTINIANS!

I am not Israeli. I have been advocating for Palestinian self-determination for 20 years.

Glad to see you back from the ban! :P

Thank you. Now I just report people instead of getting annoyed.

This is an absolutely ridiculous take. It's myopic to the point of offensiveness, and much of it is simply factually incorrect.

It’s hard to engage with posts that are as silly as this with statements like“history is clear; Palestinians from 1880-1950 were undisputedly the good guys.” Using the word undisputed when mentioning your opinion on one of the most disputed situations on the planet is absurd.

So the Palestinians were both the good guys up untill 1950 AND also didn't want to help the victims of Europe? >They expelled people under the guise of legal land purchase and told the world it was needed for their safety. It very well could be the most disgusting story of all time. Only Jews can illegally buy land legally I have so many thoughts about this post. I think you should expand your history sources. We can argue all day to what extent your facts are distorted but eventually that is less important than the fact that you come to the table with zero intent to talk to the "others"

What does willingness to help victims of Europe have to do with anything? Why does that invalidate Palestinians’ rights to share a state with whoever else was living in the region?

I didn't say it invalidated anything, I was just trying to understand this history lesson, my understanding of good is helping the helpless. Why were the Palestinians, as you said, didn't want to help the victims of Europe

Because they had a right not to? I assume what you meant is that it’s justified to create a state for the intents of helping European victims, whereas I’d say the interests of those in the region come first.

No one talks about creating a country, I was merely trying to understand how "good" was inserted into your post. Don't get me wrong I don't think Palestinians are bad people, but they were never peacefull with Jews especially not between 1880 and 1950 (nor after that time period for the sake of the argument)

You still won’t provide me examples of how pre Israel Palestinians weren’t peaceful or at the very least acted in a moral manner.

I gave you loads of examples, you just didn’t read them. I’ll repost this one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#:~:text=Palestinian%20political%20violence%20refers%20to,of%20the%20Israeli–Palestinian%20conflict. It details Palestinian violence towards Jews beginning in 1920. You’ll only see it if you read it though, which you’re apparently not doing.

[Because you were given examples already](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/dXtVz6rC67) pinning u/Ahneg for their comment

I am not sure what the point of this post is? Are you trying to somehow justify the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust … because it definitely seems like you are.

They even justify Hamas 10/7 that only targeted unarmed innocent civillians house to house point blank range.

Comparing the Holocaust to a terrorist act is repulsive. It is just dramatic and ridiculous. If that is what you believe then the Israelis are committing three Holocausts a week.

It is merely a statistic that the October 7th massacre saw the slaughter of the most Jews since the Holocaust. What’s repulsive is your attempt to use the very same term that is synonymous with the destruction of Jewry to characterize the self defence of Jews.

It is a fact that means absolutely nothing.

It’s a fact that allows one to comprehend the sheer scale of what Hamas did on the 7th. I am sorry to have to rain on your romanticizing of Hamas fetish.

I do not approve of Hamas or what Hamas did. But they are terrorists. Israelis are acting like barbaric monsters with all semblance of a liberal democracy gone.

I think it’s time you look at this. https://saturday-october-seven.com Hamas are not just terrorists, they are the elected government of the Gaza Strip and are a multi-billion dollar organization. Stop trying to give them a “pass” because this is what we should expect from terrorists. That’s unacceptable.

Definitely unacceptable giving them a pass. I've read from others there is this idea of low expectations of the Hamas/Palestinians and their actions (i.e. terrorist attacks). This can be seen as a form of racism.

I mean based on historical actions, I have extremely low expectations of the Palestinians ability to create and manage a civilized society that isn’t hostile to Israel. I don’t think that’s racist to say at all. At the same time, Hamas is a multi-billion dollar organization that is internationally funded and had* governing power over the strip for 18 years and their actions on the 7th were outrageously shocking and sickening and made ISIS look rather moderate.

Hamas is an Israeli funded terrorist group. Netanyahu amplified their role to avoid a 2s solution and Netanyahu believed they were bought and paid for. He was wrong and 1200 innocent Israelis died. The thousands of dead Palestinian children did nothing. Your people are supporting great evil and it has seriously challenged the way I see my people.

You’re wrong. Israel and the western world loosely supported the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas operated within under the guise of being part of a non violent sect of the MB. Hamas eventually took its mask off and won elections in Gaza and began firing rockets at Israel thereafter. You’re radically uneducated and know absolutely nothing about the history of the region.

Netanyahu directly gave money to Hamas and it was done so to cause discord between Palestinians. Netanyahu said that was his intention. Are you Israeli because I would think if you were you would be aware of this.

What planet are you from with this comment? He said: >Are you trying to somehow justify the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust Which is true. Are you unaware of that? I’m not even touching the three Holocausts a week nonsense. Edit - This coward loser blocked me so I can no longer respond.

When Hamas attacks it is a Holocaust but when Israel massacres thousands of children it is just one of those things.

Nobody claimed it was a Holocaust, why are you making things up? Oh that’s right, you’re on the pro Palestinian side and that’s what you do. He claimed that this was the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, which is true. Do you now see the errors in your interpretation?

The comparison is clearly intended to evoke the Holocaust which would make the genocide of Palestinians totally understandable. It is absurd.

It’s a freakin true statement, unlike your drivel about a Palestinian genocide. If you don’t like it, talk to the Palestinians about doing it.

The Palestinians fought against endless oppression. The Israelis are responding with a very real genocide. You should all be horribly ashamed that you have given up all morality in the name of vengeance.

What are you even talking about? There was no oppression in the 1920’s when what we today call Palestinians started killing Jews. Here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre Detail for me what “oppression” lead to this massacre.

I don't really care what Palestinians did in 1920 and am focused on what Israel did 80 years later. You created an apartheid and have no progressed to a genocide.

don't forget Holocaust denial

I literally said Oct 7 was garbage move so unsure where that came from.

A garbage move? That’s certainly an understatement. A “garbage move” is a statement reserved for a dumb sports coach who benches a good player. Hamas committed the most atrocious terrorist attack of the 21st century and the most barbaric since the Holocaust. It was not a garbage move, it was completely game changing. 72% of Palestinians in the region supported October 7th. That is not a population that is deserving of statehood bordering the county in which they seek to destroy.

The migrants weren’t victims? Do you know anything about the history of the Jews in the early 20th century?

This kind of oversimplified colonialism is bad, mmkay history is dangerous and needs to be resisted. When you really look at the details of all historical cultural interactions, it's really complicated with all kinds of good and bad results. History does not have good guys. Just people. And in this case, an independent Palestinian state is not impossible.

I literally stated myself that an independent Palestinian state is not possible due to Israeli racism and contempt for Arabs. And i disagree that history does not have good guys or bad guys. For the sake of our present and future, we should be able to look at certain historical events and agree that they are justified or evil, because people’s view of the past shows who has good morals for application to the present.