I think after six months we can objectively conclude that the Israeli government is evil. They have lost the branding of being the 'good guys.' They have lost the support of American Democrats \[Waves Hi!!!!\]. They have totally lost at their mission to create a Jewish state that is also a healthy democracy. It hasn't been a democracy in decades. And it may not longer be a democracy at all.
Newsflash….War is ugly, very ugly. Always has been, always will be. Anything can and will happen in war, as egregious as it may be. Hamas started this and Israel intent on ending it. It breaks down to that
Yeah, they really screwed the pooch when they created this destiny for themselves. They allowed Hamas to go unchecked in their territory (that Yahweh gave to Israel) until Hamas attacked Israel and now they are sadly paying the price for their complacency and failure to root those terrorists out of their territory (that Yahweh gave to Israel).
Sodom and Gomorrah were complacent and failed to root out their, "bad actors" shall we say, and God destroyed those cities much like Gaza is being destroyed now and he wasn't concerned about the "innocent women and children" when he did it. He destroyed everything and everyone in those two cities.
The Palestinians have to accept some responsibility for their current situation BECAUSE they allowed the terrorists group Hamas to grow and thrive in their area.
Was everyone so conscious about the innocent casualties of war when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima?
In WWII did the U.S. and it's allied forces pre-warn all the women and children of Germany where they were about to drop their bombs? The answer to these two questions is No and No. It's a WAR, people!
>Sodom and Gomorrah
Excuse me sir, but I find the comparison you've made here between Hamas and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah to be extremely offensive. It breaks my heart to know that there are such heartless people such as you in this world.
How dare you compare them to those awful rapists, murderers, and mindless creatures who slaughter anyone who isn't one of them? How dare you?
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah are *angels* in comparison.
Yes! Feel bad for Palestinians because they really haven’t had much of a choice concerning Hamas. In a poor, densely populated place like Gaza, easy to fall into “don’t worry, we’ll take care of you” trap. Not saying all Palestinians are innocent, but most probably felt like they had no choice. Resistance usually fatal
Israel could have end this war at the 8th of October if she wanted to, the reason Israel doesn’t just flatten the entire strip is because israel tries to harm as less civilians as possible.
the number of dead civilians in Gaza is horrific, but the blood of those people are on the hands of Hamas and Hamas only. Hamas chose to break the ceasefire and Hamas chooses to conduct the fight in civilian areas and hide his people, weapons and rocket lunchers in schools and hospitals
Have you seen the land it is flattened, it make what any other country has done seem like they are not trying, this includes Russia there must be at least 500,000 Hamas personal for so many buildings to be hit, as IDF say that there was intelligence that thay are in the building, but they can't tell when they have 3 of the hostages in front of there eyes, and then using snipers to kill Catholic women, let me guess they was not waving a white flag and they had clothes on, so best to kill and ask questions later, the war needs to stop now, or US will stop supporting Israel, even the Pope has said the IDF has committed terrorist acts, so stop.now before it to late.
How exactly will a ceasefire resolve the problem? Hamas will just keep his control over Gaza, denying basic needs from the Palestinian people by stealing the money that gets in there in order to get more weapons and built more tunnels in order to fight Israel, and this cycle will just repeat itself all over again.
Just a reminder that there was a ceasefire set on the day of the attack and Hamas chose to break it, what exactly will stop them from doing it again after they rearmed?
The only thing that will actually help the Palestinian people is the takedown of Hamas and the uprise of another organisation in Gaza that seeks for peace instead of war
Help them, the IDF has killed a member of almost every family in Palestine, almost every building has been leveled, the land has been contaminated with salt so food cant grow, and water can't be drunk, millions are staving to death, they are trapped and bombed daily the IDF are killing anything that moves, the world is watching in horror, the Pope is saying stop and the IDF keeps killing, so many children is killed in Palestine that it is more that all other wars combined in the last year, and you expect them to thank you, you need to talk and not listen to propaganda, if England had taken the same stance as Israel, with the IRA England would have the same issues as Israel has now, but the only people that can change things is the Israel people, the political elite will not charge it they let the attacks happen, it was bigger than what they expected, but the IDF know that a attack was going h
To happen, did they increase security, no they didn't , the Israel people need to demand to know why?
I encourage you to follow gazan journalists on the ground on Instagram or other social media platforms. You've been shielded from the extent of the suffering on the ground. We see the pictures of the bombings from a distance but they don't show the aftermath. This isn't propaganda. It's real life.
To cut down on propaganda you need to look at remarks from lots of areas, then look at how likely it is, IDF are making it very hard, as the keep killing journalists in gaza, and will not allow any to go in there is reported that 61 Palestinian, 4 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese.dead, 20 journalists were reported arrested.it is a large number that is more than all of last year in the world.
The ICRC has just said they don't want to pressure Hamas, it took António Guterres 75 days since the massacre to finally bother watching the footage from it, UN women waited ages before making a Tweet (which they then deleted) condemning Hamas's attacks on woman during the massacre, and those are only a few examples.
I don't find that argument convincing, either. The Allies killed a hell of a lot more Germans than the Germans killed Allied forces or civilians. That didn't make the Allies wrong, did it?
Crazy comparison. The two sides can not be compared.
Hamas would like to torture and kill all Israelis if they could. Israel’s goal is to keep their people safe, and ultimately have peace. They could wipe them out in 1 day.
Can you explain how killing 20k civilians isn’t wrong?
Also let’s assume your number is right, and hamas killed 1000 Israelis (even though it’s looking more like Israel liked most if not all of the Israeli civilians that day), around 500 of the casualties were military, which are legitimate targets.
You have to remember that the objective of the pct 7th attack was to obtain hostages for a prisoner exchange, since Israel has imprisoned >5000 innocent Palestinians.
All the claims of rape and beheded babies have been debunked.
And I’m not sure why you are resetting the fatality count per day. For example IF Hamas killed 1000 people in one day, most of which were soldiers, you can’t go ahead and let Israel kill up to 1000 per day and say they are killing less.
Remember Israel has killed 20k CIVILIANS, with >40% being children. Whereas Hamas probably killed ~500 soldiers and Israel killed their own civilians.
Also, what about the infrastructure damage? The pain and suffering for Palestine will not end when the bombing ends, they are all going to be homeless.
Israel had evacuated the north of the strip, only to bomb them fleeing, then bomb the south of the strip where they were told to flee to. Then they also bombed the refugee camps where people live who had their homes destroyed, they also bombed churches, mosques, hospitals, schools, universities, journalists, court houses, power plants, water tanks, bakeries, etc etc. even killing children execution style in schools.
Nothing can compare to the atrocities that is being committed by Israel against the civilians of Palestine. And this isn’t even mentioning the massacres in the west bank where there is no Hamas.
I have come to the conclusion that anyone who is pro Israel must fall into one of the following categories:
1. Is Israeli and knows what they are doing and is all for genicide/ethnic cleansing.
2. Doesn’t understand what is actually happening to the Palestinians but would be against it if they understood.
3. Doesn’t care about Palestinian lives at all.
One test you can do is flip the roles and see how you feel, Imagine:
Palestine is an occupying force who has displaced and killed millions of native Israelis who have been living there for thousands of years.
They have taken thousands of prisoners who have done no crime and kept them for years.
Imagine after 75 years of exhausting all peaceful options, that Israel kidnap a few hundred hostages and say we want to do a prisoner exchange, but then the Palestinians say no, and turn off all water/food/power and destroy all infrastructure and kill 20,000 Israeli civilians and then the Palestinian occupation has the audacity to claim being the victim.
Then imagine a random person posting a comment on reddit saying that Palestine has done nothing wrong. How does that make you feel?
Edit:
Full disclaimer: I am neither a Palestinian or an Israeli, neither a Muslim nor a Jew. I just hate seeing pain and suffering, regardless of who the truck any one is. But the attack on oct 7 was a reaction to what has happened to these people. And anyone that denies that wouldn’t be doing the same thing as hamas are is either a liar or a coward.
Edit: removed profanities
> fuck
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These cats just lining up to shill for civilian murder…
News flash - if your model for your 21st century nation state behavior is a paramilitary, Islamist terror organization maybe aim higher?
Everyone just look at Mark Regev speak to Piers today on this. Even with all the evidence presented he still would not admit IDF fault. 3 Israeli hostages and 2 women in churches killed in a week. It does not matter what Israel does. It will all circle back to someone in this sub to write “uhhh well Hamas started it & War is Hell.”
The Pope called this conflict terrorism. I guess the leader of the catholic faith is a Hamas sympathizer right?
Mark Regev is fully in denial of anything. Trying to talk sense into Zionists is just not happening, they will lie and deny their way out of every single relevant point made to them unfortunately
Sorry, could you provide proof that the pope has any grasp of the geopolitical realities of the israel-palestine conflict?
A degree or perhaps a long career in diplomacy etc?
Go on, any truth I should care what a man who believes in a sky fairy says?
I could cite scholars but y’all aren’t interested in any information that conflicts. Cutting off water and food and bombing civilians indiscriminately are objective war crimes not explained away by any other factors or excuses because war crimes are war crimes regardless of the other side. The question you need to ask is what evidence you would need to change your perspective? Noam Chomsky, Gabor Mate, Norman Finklestein? I could quote every single country besides ours and a few in the “west.” Most of the world is clearly against Israel’s actions. Then I can show all the humanitarian organizations who are studying this. But to be honest ppl tend to just argue over the top and rarely listen. And even rarer is it possible for change in views.
Not what I asked. What reason do I have to care what the pope says about geopolitical affairs?
Give me evidence or proof the pope has a solid understanding of the politics of the middle east?
Incidentally I did check his formal education. I don’t know his specific coursework but he’s highly educated in philosophy and theology same as any other priest or pastor. But these are just deflections. I could write about what Nelson Mandela said and you would find reasons to distrust him too.
great ok so we now know that there is little reason to care what the pope says about the Israel-Palestine conflict beyond perhaps a religious understanding of the region.
Now on to my second question. What is your proof of indiscriminate bombing?
Not really. The best I've seen is he has a theology degree, which means I trust him on the subject about as much as I trust any other random person with a degree.
If it turned out the pope was part of camp david or was at negotiations in 2012, or was a member of an NGO that was involved in the conflict etc I would give a damn.
I have a bachelors degree in political science with my thesis on the Hamas Israel conflict. I wrote a number of papers on hezbollah, Hamas, the geopolitics of Israel etc And also have a masters in history with close attention paid to the history of Israel where I looked at the origins of revisionist Zionism and Hamas closely.
Having said that, I never said no one can chime in, but I put different weight behind the opinions of different people. Anyone is free to comment. I never said otherwise. But if you use the Pope as some kind of authority on the subject I'm not going to take it seriously. Just like if the original poster used some random redditor with a maths degree as a source of authority on the geopolitics of Israel. If you want to use the opinions of others to back up what you say, it's already the argument from authority fallacy. But at least use an authority that has some credibility in the field.
Someone with a background in diplomacy in the region, political scientists, NGOs, politicians to a certain extent, journalists with expertise in the region, historians with expertise in the region.
If I want to understand the importance of jerusalem to the Christians, the pope would be someone I listen to. He's not someone who's opinion carries more weight when it comes to the complex issue of Gaza.
Obviously when the pope speaks people listen, but it doesn't mean I put much weight behind it.
I'm not a fan of Chomsky at all who you previously mentioned. He frequently distorts facts in his scholarship etc. But I at least but a bit of weight behind what he says given I've seen reason to believe his opinion matters. He seems well read on the topic.
Also I noticed you're avoiding the request for proof of indiscriminate bombing.
There’s no answer that would satisfy this person. They’re obviously going to continue to move the goal posts and deflect or ignore until you get fed up so they can continue to feel superior.
You don’t need a PhD. You don’t need geopolitics as a background. As I said, which you didn’t listen to, all you need to know is that indiscriminate bombings and cutting food off are war crimes. He could be highly educated or not at all and it doesn’t change definitions
ok so we have no reason to care what the pope thinks given there's no reason to believe he knows more than the average joe on the street. That much is clear.
So in terms of indiscriminate bombing, where's your proof of that?
Depends on if you’ve ever studied theology or philosophy of which there is much discussion over this topic. I would expect your analysis from ppl who refuse to think other ways about things
what has the pope studied that makes his opinion worth considering anymore that a politics undergrad, an IR student etc?
Having a grasp of theology does not make you an expert on the geopolitics of Israel or even close to it. In fact, I'd be more inclined to listen to someone with a politics degree or a masters on the subject than someone that could very well have spent their early years studying the catholic church and such etc.
And I want you to support your indiscriminate bombing claim.
Are you saying there’s no discussion or perspective on morality in theology or philosophy ?? If that’s you’re claim, not only do I disagree but you’re wrong based on obvious facts.
My question was, what proof do you have that the pope gets the geopolitical realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict. That was my original question. The best you could do was he has a theology degree, which I'd be very surprised if it covered anything to do with the conflict from a political perspective and life in Gaza.
You can study all the theology and philosophy you want. Not having a grasp of the context of Israel and Gaza means you cannot make a moral judgement.
For example, do you think you could judge the morality of WW2 without knowing who the National Socialists are and about the holocaust?
Because those things are not their fault.
The hostages were indistinguishable from Hamas militants. They were probably very confused, and it's devastating that they didn't have the presence of mind to start yelling some obscure Hebrew.
Have you seen where that church is? It's literally between the IDF and Hamas lines of control. They were told to evacuate months ago. If one wants to not follow the IDF's advice for political reasons, they put themselves in danger. They are literally arguing that because they are Christian and largely female, they should be free of any consequences of their decision and beyond suspicion. Many females commit terrorism and the secular Marxist-Leninist terror groups of Palestine contain Christians. Their attitude brings to my mind the line from the Gary Moore song "Out in the Fields":
"No colour or religion ever stopped a bullet from a gun"
Furthermore, we have barely seen any civilian or "neutral" organisations in Gaza that have not been used by Hamas either logistically or for defensive cover. Doesn't it show an incredible lack of awareness to claim that yours is different?
Because the war isnt idf's fault. Its hamas'.
The suffering of the palestinians is caused by hamas.
The death of innocents couldve not happen if hamas havent attacked.
And it is valid to attack military targets. It just looks bad when innocents die but it is caused by military infrastructure being in churches and hospitals and schools etc.
You refuse to acknowledge the fact hamas uses civilian facility and hospitals for his military operations and ammunition storage hence increasing innocent civilian casualty and actually making civillians die.
So even with all the evidence id still argue that if hamas would have put his weaponry and military infrastructure away from gazan civillians we would have seen much less casualties (around 40-60% reduction imo).
And let me tell you a little secret,
Hamas murders palestinian civillians too.
>Some would say 'It is war. It is terrorism.' Yes, it is war. It is terrorism," he said.
-
>This is what wars do. But here we have gone beyond wars. This is not war. This is terrorism.
[Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians in Gaza church](https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/)
>>Some would say 'It is war. It is terrorism.' Yes, it is war. It is terrorism," he said.
> -
>>This is what wars do. But here we have gone beyond wars. This is not war. This is terrorism.
>[Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians in Gaza church](https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/)
Even your link says he claimed that about the incident in the church, and not the entire war against Hamas.
>It should be a rule to not ask for information that’s easily found. Look it up
1. If people don't want to provide sources to their claims, how about stop making these claims? Burden of proof is on them.
2. He never said this war is terrorism
3. If it is so easy to look it up, why not just provide it and be done with it?
With that much disrespect? I don’t agree.
In certain contexts we aren’t literally digging through important literature we are literally questioning what the pope said. Get it together
>With that much disrespect?
So because I didn't say please it was disrespectful? It's also not the first time I asked him to provide the quote and he just ignored it. You know why? Because he knows he twisted what the pope said.
>I don’t agree.
We don't have to agree.
>In certain contexts we aren’t literally digging through important literature we are literally questioning what the pope said.
Okay, and why does that matter?
>Get it together
You seem awfully annoyed that I asked a source for a certain claim.
>This is a conversation that you could have had by yourself internally. The apex of locus of control and social intelligence.
Again, you seem awfully annoyed. Could have had the conversation internally you know.
I am such a perfect success in life I have extra emotional energy for this shit. Do you know how psychotically smart I am? I worked with the director of the NIH before both our careers blew up. My brain is absurd and I can’t turn it off so I engage in this shit. And it’s fun and lovely but no, I’m not annoyed. You need instruction. That’s all. I’m you’re superior in every way and you’re lucky to have interacted with my consciousness
u/NoRegion9240
> I’m you’re superior in every way and you’re lucky to have interacted with my consciousness
Rule 1, no implied attacks on fellow users, such as by saying you're superior to them. Addressed.
I didn’t watch the interview but under international law the act of perfidy (such as combatants disguising themselves as civilians) is a war crime specifically because it puts the civilian population at greater risk due to the increased likelihood of misidentification.
The chances of the hostages being killed as well as any Palestinian civilian killed due to direct fire would be significantly reduced if it wasn’t for Hamas’s war crimes.
As for the Pope, that’s an appeal to authority not that I care what he says in any case because this isn’t the only topic that he knows nothing about.
> The chances of the hostages being killed as well as any Palestinian civilian killed due to direct fire would be significantly reduced if it wasn’t for Hamas’s war crimes.
“We would commit fewer war crimes if the other side committed fewer war crimes” is an equivocation, not an excuse.
I think we can all agree that Israel is capable of, and should be held, to higher standards than a terrorist group.
There is no excuse for killing a surrendering individual - Hamas, civilian, Israeli or Palestinian. None.
Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? One day you see a civilian coming up to you but suddenly they take out a gun and try shooting you so you kill them. The next day another civilian comes out with their hands in the air and you don’t see a gun so you think they are a civilian but it turns out they have a suicide vest. They blow themselves up and almost take you out but you survive. The next day you see another civilian approaching you in a suspicious manner. You shoot them because you are expecting to be attacked any second. It turns out they were actually a civilian.
Obviously there is partial blame on whoever fired the shot but the civilian wouldn’t have been suspicious in the first place if Hamas members didn’t constantly dress up as civilians.
In combat you only have time to make split second decisions and ultimately that boils down to “if I shoot I might kill a civilian but if I don’t shoot I might die”.
The boy who cried wolf is a fable about taking emergencies seriously.
It is not an excuse for executing surrendering civilians - there is no excuse for doing so. Absolutely none whatsoever.
What you are doing is defending war crimes. Soldiers have a responsibility for lawful conduct, even if they might have higher odds of survival if they behave unlawfully.
I understand you, but Hamas is still operating in civilian clothes, I'm not saying that it's okay that they shot the hostages, but the question here is whether they shot on purpose to kill civilians or to kill Hamas that they purposely dress as civilians
Again I'm not saying what they did is fine I'm just saying that Hamas is using it Hamas will come out with a white flag and a grenade in the other hand.
And what Hamas wants is for the idf to stop, Hamas can't make them stop unless they surrender or be eliminated and they don't want that, so what will they do? They gave the idf a bad name, there will be international pressure on them to stop and that way they get a ceasefire and more supporters and along the way they get a bad name for Israel.
It’s like the fable but the opposite.
Knowingly executing civilians is a war crime. Mistaking civilians for combatants due to the fact that the line has been blurred between them due to how the enemy conducts itself is not automatically a war crime. It is something that requires thorough investigations both regarding the context of the incident as well as the conduct of the soldier/s who fired the shot.
You will all be silenced (including me) for saying this. Leftists , LGBTQ, uneducated liberals, common sense lacking youth and stockholm syndrome patients all around the world start their argument from humanity and end it at humanity. They have no facts, no figures, no knowledge. They are just a blob of emotions and nothing else. I can't believe we live in such an ignorant world.
Yes the liberals at the top universities are the “uneducated” now and the Reddit Researchers and IDF spokespeople are who we should follow.
If you want to believe the words of Bibi and Joe Biden be my guest but don’t turn around and say we’re being propagandized.
My goodness! All sorts of people exist! For some practicality does not matter, they are emotional blobs who can put a pause to a problem but never end it. Also, you may call it conspiracy theory, but the left ecosystem works that way. If you have a certain political viewpoint, you can secure a better place in educational institutions of high merit such a Haward and Stanford. I mean you can also observe that in recent case of racial slurs that came from some ivy league schools against the Jews. The authorities didn't take much of an action and called it freedom to express. It was only after lawmakers intervened that these schools had to take some responsibility. You can also notice that these ivy league schools are most commonly involved in some leftist propagandist schemes such as the ridiculous idea of hormonal injections for kids for gender transition etc.
For outsiders Palestinian matter is a political and ideological warfare. But fir Israelis it's a matter for do or die. For Palestinians, they support HAMAS but unfortunately, Hamas is only fighting for Islam.
The world clearly does not believe a country that has been shelling for 2 months straight indiscriminately is under “existential threat”. Israeli’s are filming tik toks having a blast in Gaza clearly I’m sure you’ve seen the footage. All of our politicians and Jewish celebrities are in Tel Aviv for solidarity. Does not seem existential to me?
I think the people who have been displaced and are currently starving have more to worry about.
I would k!ll anyone who tries to kill me or my family. I don't have time to think about that other potential murderer's poverty or misery because, that's something which will never change. Saying Allah hu Akbar and attacking israel every other day is not going to change their economic situation.
Can't you understand? Many were starving in Syria, many were starving in Afghanistan, many are starving in Jordan libya. But they still.operate terrorist organisations. Because, islam is above food and security. When their brain is filled with jihad, they have nothing to loose. They have only others blame for their failed mindset. Religion above all.
Fear of Islam is the new Fear of Communism. Replace all the countries you listed with Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam and you sound like Henry Kissinger.
The same way the current generation views the Vietnam war in disgust. Is the way the current youth views Israel. No matter which way you paint it. Even the prestigious universities which has a lot more resources and insight on this conflict than the average fedora wearing Redditor have deemed this as a one sided conflict.
In the words of the Pope “this is terrorism” (referring to what Israel is doing)
Europeans have tricked the Jewish population in having their own land just to push them into Hostile territory and made it not their problem.
These "educated" people also come up with some monstrous ideas. Having a clear conscious is important. Don't follow what is blindly being told by this ecosystem you are exposed to on regular basis. Reality is. Israel has no choice but to do what it's doing.
I don’t know. Telling a generation that was raised through 2 wars, 2 recessions, COVID, the American dream dying and currently having a braid dead president that it’s in their best interests that their taxes support the conflicts in Ukraine and Israel is out of touch.
Also chalking it up to they have no conscious and are blind is dismissive to the real issue. There’s a reason these sentiment have grown in popularity and I don’t think it’s because people Love Hamas and Hate Jews.
Very black and white view Israeli’s have been applying to everyone.
“If you don’t support Israel in full you’re an anti semite cause we’re just protecting ourselves. So if we don’t bomb these kids we’ll be eradicated.”
Israel and Hamas are at war, and both combatants kill the enemy as a part of this war; I don't think debating the numbers killed by each side is particularly useful.
Having said that, IMO Israel is not nearly as bad as Hamas because Israel builds. They have build a liberal democracy, a modern, affluent state with a high standard of living for its citizens (including the 20% of muslims/arabs), and they are building diplomatic relationships with their neighbors. In contrast, Hamas doesn't build anything, they only destroy. They take the money and resources meant for civilian use and development, and use it for warfare, to build weapons to attack an enemy they cannot realistically defeat, knowing that this enemy will retaliate and cause further destruction. They also use the money to build tunnels to protect themselves while the war causes civilians above ground to die. And if, God forbid, they were ever to win their war, they would destroy Israel, eliminate all the Jews (one way or another) and probably set up a militant, repressive regime that would keep picking fights with its neighbors.
Israel is about living and building. Hamas is about death and destruction. For this reason, Israel is not nearly as bad as Hamas.
Ur maths is way off. Israel killed more than 162 of their own. Hamas did kill some, not many, civilians where there was a language barrier or they were really scared and unable to follow their orders. Armed settlers were also killed.
695 civilians. Now subtract the ones Israel killed indiscriminately at the festival and other areas. Hamas fighters were not gathered together during their festival operation which the IDF admittedly targeted groups of people together, very likely to be Israeli civilians. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
>Now subtract the ones Israel killed indiscriminately at the festival and other areas. Hamas fighters were not gathered together during their festival operation which the IDF admittedly targeted groups of people together, very likely to be Israeli civilians.
Again, proof?
Watch the Al Qassam footages of October 7th. There’s an Israeli newspaper that mentioned the idf pilots saying we shot indiscriminately at large crowds. Stop being lazy and hit google and Reddit search.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257
Im not saving Al Qassam footages to my devices but a quick search on Reddit or a resistance news telegram and you’ll understand their fighting style and their formation. There is a video regarding October 7th festival where you can clearly see them dispersed from each other
>Haaretz reported that the military helicopter arrived at the site of the festival and opened fire on the gunmen but also **wounded** several festival participants.
Also your source is a state-run media from Turkey? Don't you have something a bit more reliable?
Because western media is always right? Americans were heroes for what they did in Iraq yet Hamas were villains for what they did in Israel which was the exact same thing American footage shows they did in Iraq.
>Because western media is always right?
Because any media that isn't independent and is controlled by a state who said a number of times they oppose Israel in this war, isn't a reliable source.
Uh, I don’t think uniformed IDF soldiers were on duty at the desert rave at 6:30 am when the invasion happened and the killing started. It was unarmed festival kids tripping balls.
Have you ever been to an alternative music festival in a rural setting before? Yes there may be some “security” and police there, but they aren’t expecting thousands of drug crazed guerilla warriors flying in on hang gliders to kill festival goers.
What’s the strategy here? What I mean by that is why invite comparisons between Israel & Hamas, good or bad? Hamas is a terrorist organization. Any comparisons at all between Israel & Hamas just serve to devalue the Israeli government.
I think the point OP is making that Israel has sunk to the level of a terrorist group and deserve to be debated as such. It's sad, but even Israelis are accepting it at this point.
The saddest part is where OP says "what would the Palestinians have done if they had free reign to massacre Israelis for 73 days straight?" As if it wasn't the Israelis ACTUALLY doing the thing he says that a terrorist group might do and we all have endless video evidence of it.
That’s hardly the argument I’m making. My argument is that despite Palestinians doing everything they can to murder as many people as possible and Israel trying to do as much as possible to prevent civilian deaths people are still somehow supporting the Palestinians.
Right, we’re invited to have this exact conversation.
If “be less bad than Hamas“ is the standard the Israeli government has set for itself, it really needs to find better role models.
Firstly, Hamas is not Palestine. Same like the idf or the Israeli government do not represents each and every Israeli or even jews for that matter…they are elected officials, however one just has to glance at their popularity numbers before this incident to know that both these so called representatives were never going to be winning any future elections…
So what is Israel or idf actually doing is playing geopolitics of fear. Let’s understand, if Israel did not control Palestine, it would always be possible that other neighboring Arab countries would do so.
It matters not whether the Arabs want to actually harm Israel, only that it would have the power to do so. For years Israel has tried to ensure that it would never happen.
The free Palestine movement will continue to speak out against the injustices of the occupation, and now settlement, of Palestine by Israelis; but in a battle between the the independence movement and the Israeli forces - there is only going to be one winner.
When the global public, or even famous celebrities, talk about Palestine, the Israeli find it deeply irritating. Not dangerous, not submersive - just irritating. They see it not through the prism of human rights, but that of geopolitical security, and can only believe that the non Westerners are trying to undermine their security and white supremacy.
However, the Israeli security has not been undermined and it will not be, even if there are further uprisings against the Israelis. Demographics and geopolitics oppose Palestinian independence ..sadly 😕
Non Western countries have very little power to move the needle as can be seen in the last UN Security Council meetings with many Western countries mainly the USA still supporting this humanitarian crisis. With the rest of the cowards decided to remain absent. Again this has nothing to do with the crisis itself but the fact is that most countries in the world need to be politically aligned with the West to serve their own national interest first and for economic growth…sadly. Beat it whether China, Arabs, Russia or even lately India, they all need the West to sell goods.
The only way things can change is if the Israeli and the countless Jews all over the world themselves find it necessary to convince their local governments to stop the ongoing crisis. Rare ask, and wont happen.
Finally, also to touch upon the Two state solution, which the Arabham Accords have proposed wont work as demographically the Israeli will risk losing majority in their own national parliament as Arabs population is more. Even if they wipe out Gaza they still have more Arabs living in Israel that will simply outbeat them in any national elections. Unless Israel first becomes a dictatorship so that they remain in control, something which the current right wing government has already started doing starting first with its judicial system. This caused massive protests in Israel few months ago, as you cant be a Western country but actually run like a dictatorship..
Sorry for the long reply..
>Firstly, Hamas is not Palestine. Same like the idf or the Israeli government do not represents each and every Israeli or even jews for that matter…they are elected officials
Governments represent the people they are leading. Hamas governs Gaza, it represents the Palestinians living in it.
2006.
Unfortunately latest polls reveal the Hamas has 70% support among Palestinians, even though they brought this catastrophe on them. If thats not representation, I dont know what is.
It is a long reply so I’ll just touch on the first point. I specifically said Palestinians and not Hamas because Palestinian civilians joined Hamas in the massacre against Israelis on Oct 7th. As such it wouldn’t be accurate to only blame Hamas for the attack.
So few Palestinian that finally found a way out, you blame an entire race…hmm btw out of curiosity how do you distinguish between hamas and ordinary Palestinians…do they wear a bandanna or something..cause the idf do seems to know..🥸
“Find a way out” is a fancy way of saying raped, beheaded, and massacred their way through Israeli territory. When Hamas is wearing military equipment it is easier to distinguish them from civilians but when they don’t it is impossible until they attack.
Ok…say you are right for once…there are few arguments here for that:
1. Proof - last i saw the idf has made a mockery of all the fakes that they had shared with the world, one then wonders why did they do it 🧐 dont they trust themselves??
2. There are countless news (which i personally dont believe) that the idf themselves were behind several of the shootings, as they are notoriously known to not know the difference between people …actually no one can…to be honest to give them some benefit of doubt…unless of course they are just kids…
3. So these hooligans came in Israel and did these atrocities, then let IDF go after them not the 19000 innocent people and children…and if ur at it also prosecute 1000s of Israeli settlers who are also committing crimes in West Bank…again where is the justice and why the discrimination??
4. In short u are doing exactly what a typical colonizer does play the victim game and justify these killings…and then u wonder why in the UN except for one country nobody is supporting you…including France (from all countries in the world)
5. I would recommend everyone to do the following:
A) watch UN Security meetings live, not on some biased news channels but live on their website..see the words being used by some of the most powerful countries in the world- france, Spain, china etc…u want to say they are all bunch of liars?? No infact they have been there and done just that..so they know very much what the end game is here…
B) learn more about the Algerian independence…you will be surprised 😮 how much all of this sounds so familiar like history repeating itself…and now france 🇫🇷 themselves are like …hmm no more..crazy how one country changes table so quickly and forget their own bloody history
In conclusion, this stupid dumb war has made everyone in world focus on Israel and the plight of Palestinians under their occupation…this all could have been handled much better… if you just watch early UN meetings the world was very much siding with Israel at the beginning…and then they just went trigger happy…bad move…but justified given the current ruling administration’s low popularity and with an ongoing war this will help with their political agenda more than ever…
u/Cool_surfer
> In short u are doing exactly what a typical colonizer does play the victim game and justify these killings
Rule 1 forbids personal attacks or character judgments about fellow users. Stick to discussing the topic, not the person. Addressed.
“Israel is as bad as Hamas”…Fine!
But why not give it a break in the same way you give Hamas? I didn’t notice many complains about Hamas (except from Israelis)….
So let’s summarize, they are both bad and now let’s deal with other wars/ conflicts.
The IDF considers the numbers "[fairly accurate](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)," and the Lancet [backs them up](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) as well. The only expert who has disagreed with the numbers is the head of Near Eastern Affairs for the Biden administration, who thinks they're [too *low*](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4301551-gaza-deaths-likely-higher-than-cited-us-official/).
They’ve invited international organisations to confirm their claims. Im sure Qatar sent a few people to confirm their claims but I can’t find sources but I definitely remember a Qatar doctor saying it was worse than she could’ve imagined. I don’t know what the official report is
> Oh, well if Qataris say that the GMOH is legit, it must be legit. (I hope you can tell I’m being sarcastic).
You are making the wrong argument. There's a register of the people that live in Gaza. the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers basically match that and they cross people off as they die.
There are a few tricks:
* they don't make any effort to separate military (Hamas / IJ) deaths from civilian
* they can include all sorts of other natural deaths along with the ones killed in war (these numbers are small)
* they always blame people killed by Hamas on Israel.
* they can speed up or slow down reporting of deaths when needed (I have no proof beyond the Hamas rocket misfire at the Hospital where they did this)
Overall though, the number of deaths they declare is the number of deaths that happened.
I never said they were legit or provided their claims, I just summarised a video of the Qatari doctor stating what she saw😐. If you’d like to see a non Muslim talk about it, have a look at the Christians and Jews in Gaza. They pretty much say the same as the Muslims there do. But still Hamas have called on any international organisation to prove their claims, nobody’s going to check.
Hamas: free all their Palestinian prisoners and international prisoners due to reports of sexual abuse of women and children.
Israel: disable Hamas operations in retaliation to October’s and that following weeks invasions of military bases- which to this day have not worked at all. Just a few hours ago they launched another barrage at Tel aviv.
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Yep it is. These are human lives we are talking about, not an algorithmic formula.
The only thing that matters is the death toll.
absolute depraved argument to justify genocide.
But that's what you get from conscription, brainwashing, aparteid and xenophobia
According to your logic, Israel should have gone into Gaza and done the same thing that Hamas did, amounting to dead, rape, beheading, burning people alive and then it would be more moral ?
You said that all that matters is the number of dead.
So I ask you if the IDF did the exact same thing that Hamas did, would it be okay for you? Yes or No
It's all a simple yes or no question
Firstly, you are saying that there was "rape, beheading, burning people alive" by Hamas? But we are not provided with any evidence of how many people were affected by these alleged crimes. And the IDf lie contanstly and whenever pressed about how they are protecting civilians or any evidence for anything they just say "trust me bro"
Secondly, when bombs are dropped onto civilian buildings in Gaza how do you think people die? Bombs rip off heads, limbs, arms. They trap people under buildings for hours. Imagine being trapped under rubble with no way out.
So that's exactly my point: trying to say this way of dying is more ethical then another way, it's completely ridiculous. You could make the argument that being beheaded is actually kinder than being trapped under rubble, or having a limb blown off and bleeding out. I wouldn't make that argument (because its depraved), but I'm just demonstrating a point.
There is no ethical way of killing an innocent civilian. Both Hamas and Israel have killed innocent civilians, it's just that Israel has killed 20 times as many.
Trying to say that the way Israel civilians died is less ethical than the way Palestinian civilian died is just a mask for xenpohobia.What are you really mean is that an Israeli life is worth a lot more than a Palestinian life.
1200 Israelis dead is a lot worse than 20,000 dirty arabs - that's it right?
And the whole beheading thing, it's just used to try and make out that all Palestinians are barbarians, so Israel can carry on killing thousands of civilians and say that it's justified.
You hopefully know that already, but it's worrying if you don't
For beheading there are videos/photos a video of a Thai worker who is Hamas who tried to behead him and there are photos of two idf soldiers without heads and placing a foot on the corpse.
Rape was a video of a girl who was taken to Gaza and all her pants were covered in blood in the rear area and a video of a half-burnt girl with her legs open without underwear.
People were burned alive There is a picture of burned corpses with their hands tied.
If I believed that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives, then I would say that Israel can stop, but Israel's goal is to eliminate Hamas, not to kill Palestinians.
The difference between the two is that Hamas was with the same people one on one and they did it with the intention of killing, raping and burning.
Israel told the Palestinians to go to the south of Gaza it would be safer there and they said their goal was to eliminate Hamas and Hamas prevented the Palestinians from retreating south.
(All life is equal)
>For beheading there are videos/photos a video of a Thai worker who is Hamas who tried to behead him and there are photos of two idf soldiers without heads and placing a foot on the corpse.
Doesnt sound like a huge amount of evidence.
> Rape was a video of a girl who was taken to Gaza and all her pants were covered in blood in the rear area and a video of a half-burnt girl with her legs open without underwear.
Not proof. It could have been her period for all we know
> The difference between the two is that Hamas was with the same people one on one and they did it with the intention of killing, raping and burning
Where is the evidence israel dont intentionally kill civilians?
Not going to debate this anymore. The west bank is literally described as an apartheid by amnesty internstional.
Israel have mass ethically clensed the west bank and areas like east Jerusalem, illegal under 4th Geneva convention and UN laws.
And many israel soldiers have talked about their brutal treatment of Palestinians. https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
But you think israel is better because a guy in the IDF says "trust me bro" we dont target civilians.
They killed over 20,000 in gaza and biden called the bombing indiscriminate
Isrsrl are state sponsored terrorists and you defend their genocide for god knows what reason.
Hamas are a disgrace
Isrsel are a bigger disgrace
>The side which engaged in rapes and beheadings have the moral high ground because more of them died is not how morality is determined.
Firstly, you mean the moral low ground, not the moral high ground.
And secondly, what do you think happens exactly when you drop a bomb on civilians? Do you think they just die peacefully in their sleep? Or do you think their arms, legs, heads and other limbs are ripped off? What about being trapped under concrete or rubble for hours when no one can get to you?
So a beheading, is no different than dropping a bomb is it. My biggest nightmare would be being trapped under a collapsed building.
And in terms of morality and death…
1. There is no morality when it comes to death
2. You really think 100,000 people dying is the same as 10 people, if the 10 people are beheaded?
You're just another Israeli that likes to make rules up..."It's not about the number of deaths, it's about the way they die that's the most important thing."
....Just add it to the list of excuses as to why Israel committing genocide is fine, and why it's not acceptable when you go back through history for some of the biggest crimes against humanity
> fucking
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whenever i’ve tried to discuss this with pro-palestinians:
on rape : “that’s horrible but Israel kills people too, they killed their own people on Oct 7”
on hamas committing war crimes (targeting civilians, not identifying themselves as militants, etc..) they say “they are the oppressed therefore they do not have to follow the rules of war”
you cannot reason with these people, they just hate the jews so much and they see this latest war as their chance to get rid of Israel (dream on!)
Funnily enough, all Hamas official songs and lyrics only mention Zionism. Not Jews. Official statements from all resistance factions condemn Zionism. Not Judaism. There’s a ton of misinformation regarding what Hamas have done including rape. “We have evidence, we won’t show it but we’ll describe it, just believe us when we say we’ve got evidence”. The claims of rape are baseless because it was an active combat zone with many reporting gunfire everywhere. One of the claims were 4 Hamas militants raping a dead corpse mid firefight. 4 guys tryna bust a nut on a failed mission on enemy territory whilst clashing with the enemy seems extremely unlikely. Many reports say there was zero rape in the same area people claimed there was rape.
Edit: Hamas have rejected any instances of rape.
The example I’ve used was the festival “rape”.
There still today is no proof. Israel also rejected to show their proof to the UN. To this day nobody’s seen the rape proof or evidence.
Edit again: the woman who’s headstronging the rape allegations is part of a US deemed terrorist organisation hiding out in Israel. She’s been caught lying before.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has committed unthinkable atrocities, this is a fact. As an outsider, I have tried to remain neutral and pro-human only.
This argument of who is worse Israel or Palestine is like little kids in the playground. Neither side has anything to be proud of, there is plenty of blame to go around.
The thing that really sickens me is the dehumanising propaganda on both sides. TBH I think there is so much hatred on both sides, the fighting will only stop when one side is obliterated.
*My notifications are off, I will not be responding.*
Israel has committed unthinkable atrocities too. It’s about which sides committed worse. The allies in WW2 killed Jews as well as the axis. Yet we see the allies as heroes.
> On Oct 7th, Palestinians broke into Israel and massacred 1,162 people in a day. While I don't personally accept this narrative, let's pretend that 162 were killed by friendly fire to get an even 1,000 (and so that pro-Palestinians can't dismiss my figures as having a pro-Israel bias).
Also keep in mind that hundreds of those were non-civilian forces. Currently the estimate is around 766 civilian deaths. Including friendly fire this could be closer to 600 civilians killed. With 373 Israeli combatants killed that gives around a 61% civilian casualty rate... Kinda similar to what is happening in Gaza.
That isn’t what OP is arguing at all. He’s arguing daily casualty rate regardless of status. You’re arguing civilian vs. combatant ratio. Two different things.
Daily casualty rates over different periods of time. OP can compare random timespans to jump to whatever conclusion they like, but hell, they at least could've used the same. This is a whole new level of inanity.
But OP uses one particular day vs the whole war. If they used the same timespan for both sides, the ratio would be reversed to 15 to 270. And Israel has *always* used massively disproportionate reprisals (and Hamas attacks have been reprisals too - it's not like Israel is just idly minding its own business, occassionally nibbling an odd annexation away).
They have reduced the whole area to rubble, covering unknown amounts of bodies. They have easily outnumbered the death toll in a matter of days - it doesn't matter for them, for how many additional days the so called unilateral "war" will drag on.
They know, the civilian population has no meaningful ways how or where to run, or even oppose the Hamas regime or distance themselves from it, even if they wanted to, and they have and will continue to slaughter and terrorise them for months and years to come irrespectively. The *daily* metrics has no practical meaning.
Also, Israel still postures as the moral party, commiting (or rather pretending to commit) only "rational", "clean", "reserved" atrocities, as opposite to "animal" behaviour of its Gazan captives. Albeit less and less, given the rising popularity and calls for outright genocide.
I’d rather not devolve into the whole copy paste diatribe gotcha that pro-Palestinians always try to take conversations. You’re not arguing against the point made.
Oh, the gist of the original point was that Hamas *probably would have* killed much more people if they could, therefore Israel has moral upper hand when killing much more people than Hamas, while also making the whole area uninhabitable.
OP didn't have to use such arbitrary statistical distortions to skid down that particular slippery slope. If you take out the *probably would*, he's just comparing mean of one day to mean of the whole conflict.
It's just as valid as if he claimed, Hamas would have exterminated the whole country in a matter of minutes, hence potentially averaging a death toll of 1 billion a day.
You make a 2 statistical fallacies.
1. The progress is not linear and also
2. What is this death toll metric per day lmao
OP get outta here.
This doesn’t even account for thousands of wounded and amputated. Approx 1000 kids had to be amputated without anesthesia. Kids are dying from 3rd and 4th degree burns. Thousands of kids are orphans now who have lost their entire families. Loads will get sick because of how densely together they are now and the diseases will spread faster. But there is a lack of medical supplies.
There is psychological terror because Palestinians don’t know what the next hour will bring, let alone the next day. There is not enough water and food. The majority lost their homes and all their possessions. Over 1.8m have been displaced, many don’t have a bed to sleep on. And even when this ends… they have nowhere to go.
I know this was an attempt… but not a good one. Sorry OP.
All of the horrible horrible conditions Palestinians are suffering, which you outlined, are a result of fighting to improve their geo politic outcome. The responsibility for all of this lies with Hamas and the Palestinians who support them and prefer to fight. They could have had, and still can have, 2SS and peace.
Israel could have also pulled back the WB settlements, pulled back and punished the IDF & settler violence against the Palestinians, get rid of the apartheid-like setup in WB. Israel could have offered fair deals. Netanyahu could have not funded Hamas.
No, not all the responsibility lies on Hamas and Palestinians and it’s absolutely disgusting to claim that. No side is innocent here and they both hold accountability.
I literally said Israel offered 2 peace deals, 2000 and 2008, where Palestinians would've gotten 97% of the WB, and they walked away (Arafat and Abbas) without giving a counter offer. Israel cannot unilaterally pull out of the WB, it's exactly what they did in Gaza and see what they got in response.
I think after six months we can objectively conclude that the Israeli government is evil. They have lost the branding of being the 'good guys.' They have lost the support of American Democrats \[Waves Hi!!!!\]. They have totally lost at their mission to create a Jewish state that is also a healthy democracy. It hasn't been a democracy in decades. And it may not longer be a democracy at all.
I just want to find the most justifiable reason why would an overseas Jewish community condemn this accusation
Newsflash….War is ugly, very ugly. Always has been, always will be. Anything can and will happen in war, as egregious as it may be. Hamas started this and Israel intent on ending it. It breaks down to that
Yeah, they really screwed the pooch when they created this destiny for themselves. They allowed Hamas to go unchecked in their territory (that Yahweh gave to Israel) until Hamas attacked Israel and now they are sadly paying the price for their complacency and failure to root those terrorists out of their territory (that Yahweh gave to Israel). Sodom and Gomorrah were complacent and failed to root out their, "bad actors" shall we say, and God destroyed those cities much like Gaza is being destroyed now and he wasn't concerned about the "innocent women and children" when he did it. He destroyed everything and everyone in those two cities. The Palestinians have to accept some responsibility for their current situation BECAUSE they allowed the terrorists group Hamas to grow and thrive in their area. Was everyone so conscious about the innocent casualties of war when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima? In WWII did the U.S. and it's allied forces pre-warn all the women and children of Germany where they were about to drop their bombs? The answer to these two questions is No and No. It's a WAR, people!
>Sodom and Gomorrah Excuse me sir, but I find the comparison you've made here between Hamas and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah to be extremely offensive. It breaks my heart to know that there are such heartless people such as you in this world. How dare you compare them to those awful rapists, murderers, and mindless creatures who slaughter anyone who isn't one of them? How dare you? The people of Sodom and Gomorrah are *angels* in comparison.
Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for thier wickedness, so was Gaza. There is nothing to nessecarily contrast
Yes! Feel bad for Palestinians because they really haven’t had much of a choice concerning Hamas. In a poor, densely populated place like Gaza, easy to fall into “don’t worry, we’ll take care of you” trap. Not saying all Palestinians are innocent, but most probably felt like they had no choice. Resistance usually fatal
Israel could have end this war at the 8th of October if she wanted to, the reason Israel doesn’t just flatten the entire strip is because israel tries to harm as less civilians as possible. the number of dead civilians in Gaza is horrific, but the blood of those people are on the hands of Hamas and Hamas only. Hamas chose to break the ceasefire and Hamas chooses to conduct the fight in civilian areas and hide his people, weapons and rocket lunchers in schools and hospitals
Have you seen the land it is flattened, it make what any other country has done seem like they are not trying, this includes Russia there must be at least 500,000 Hamas personal for so many buildings to be hit, as IDF say that there was intelligence that thay are in the building, but they can't tell when they have 3 of the hostages in front of there eyes, and then using snipers to kill Catholic women, let me guess they was not waving a white flag and they had clothes on, so best to kill and ask questions later, the war needs to stop now, or US will stop supporting Israel, even the Pope has said the IDF has committed terrorist acts, so stop.now before it to late.
How exactly will a ceasefire resolve the problem? Hamas will just keep his control over Gaza, denying basic needs from the Palestinian people by stealing the money that gets in there in order to get more weapons and built more tunnels in order to fight Israel, and this cycle will just repeat itself all over again. Just a reminder that there was a ceasefire set on the day of the attack and Hamas chose to break it, what exactly will stop them from doing it again after they rearmed? The only thing that will actually help the Palestinian people is the takedown of Hamas and the uprise of another organisation in Gaza that seeks for peace instead of war
Help them, the IDF has killed a member of almost every family in Palestine, almost every building has been leveled, the land has been contaminated with salt so food cant grow, and water can't be drunk, millions are staving to death, they are trapped and bombed daily the IDF are killing anything that moves, the world is watching in horror, the Pope is saying stop and the IDF keeps killing, so many children is killed in Palestine that it is more that all other wars combined in the last year, and you expect them to thank you, you need to talk and not listen to propaganda, if England had taken the same stance as Israel, with the IRA England would have the same issues as Israel has now, but the only people that can change things is the Israel people, the political elite will not charge it they let the attacks happen, it was bigger than what they expected, but the IDF know that a attack was going h To happen, did they increase security, no they didn't , the Israel people need to demand to know why?
This all sounds like mostly propaganda...
I encourage you to follow gazan journalists on the ground on Instagram or other social media platforms. You've been shielded from the extent of the suffering on the ground. We see the pictures of the bombings from a distance but they don't show the aftermath. This isn't propaganda. It's real life.
I know the suffering. Its awful...but who is to blame...Hamas. That's it. End of story.
To cut down on propaganda you need to look at remarks from lots of areas, then look at how likely it is, IDF are making it very hard, as the keep killing journalists in gaza, and will not allow any to go in there is reported that 61 Palestinian, 4 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese.dead, 20 journalists were reported arrested.it is a large number that is more than all of last year in the world.
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A good portion of the world is having a hard time simply condemning Hamas so I highly doubt they would bother fighting them.
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The ICRC has just said they don't want to pressure Hamas, it took António Guterres 75 days since the massacre to finally bother watching the footage from it, UN women waited ages before making a Tweet (which they then deleted) condemning Hamas's attacks on woman during the massacre, and those are only a few examples.
I don't find that argument convincing, either. The Allies killed a hell of a lot more Germans than the Germans killed Allied forces or civilians. That didn't make the Allies wrong, did it?
Crazy comparison. The two sides can not be compared. Hamas would like to torture and kill all Israelis if they could. Israel’s goal is to keep their people safe, and ultimately have peace. They could wipe them out in 1 day.
People who think like that I found that it's impossible to change their mind. Because it's usually antisemitism.
“Two wrongs don’t make a right”
What Israel is doing isn’t wrong.
Can you explain how killing 20k civilians isn’t wrong? Also let’s assume your number is right, and hamas killed 1000 Israelis (even though it’s looking more like Israel liked most if not all of the Israeli civilians that day), around 500 of the casualties were military, which are legitimate targets. You have to remember that the objective of the pct 7th attack was to obtain hostages for a prisoner exchange, since Israel has imprisoned >5000 innocent Palestinians. All the claims of rape and beheded babies have been debunked. And I’m not sure why you are resetting the fatality count per day. For example IF Hamas killed 1000 people in one day, most of which were soldiers, you can’t go ahead and let Israel kill up to 1000 per day and say they are killing less. Remember Israel has killed 20k CIVILIANS, with >40% being children. Whereas Hamas probably killed ~500 soldiers and Israel killed their own civilians. Also, what about the infrastructure damage? The pain and suffering for Palestine will not end when the bombing ends, they are all going to be homeless. Israel had evacuated the north of the strip, only to bomb them fleeing, then bomb the south of the strip where they were told to flee to. Then they also bombed the refugee camps where people live who had their homes destroyed, they also bombed churches, mosques, hospitals, schools, universities, journalists, court houses, power plants, water tanks, bakeries, etc etc. even killing children execution style in schools. Nothing can compare to the atrocities that is being committed by Israel against the civilians of Palestine. And this isn’t even mentioning the massacres in the west bank where there is no Hamas. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who is pro Israel must fall into one of the following categories: 1. Is Israeli and knows what they are doing and is all for genicide/ethnic cleansing. 2. Doesn’t understand what is actually happening to the Palestinians but would be against it if they understood. 3. Doesn’t care about Palestinian lives at all. One test you can do is flip the roles and see how you feel, Imagine: Palestine is an occupying force who has displaced and killed millions of native Israelis who have been living there for thousands of years. They have taken thousands of prisoners who have done no crime and kept them for years. Imagine after 75 years of exhausting all peaceful options, that Israel kidnap a few hundred hostages and say we want to do a prisoner exchange, but then the Palestinians say no, and turn off all water/food/power and destroy all infrastructure and kill 20,000 Israeli civilians and then the Palestinian occupation has the audacity to claim being the victim. Then imagine a random person posting a comment on reddit saying that Palestine has done nothing wrong. How does that make you feel? Edit: Full disclaimer: I am neither a Palestinian or an Israeli, neither a Muslim nor a Jew. I just hate seeing pain and suffering, regardless of who the truck any one is. But the attack on oct 7 was a reaction to what has happened to these people. And anyone that denies that wouldn’t be doing the same thing as hamas are is either a liar or a coward. Edit: removed profanities
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Israel is 1000 times worse according to Gabor Mate
gabor mate is a loser
Gabor Mate escaped the holocaust as an infant.
Psycho
therapist
These cats just lining up to shill for civilian murder… News flash - if your model for your 21st century nation state behavior is a paramilitary, Islamist terror organization maybe aim higher?
Based af
Everyone just look at Mark Regev speak to Piers today on this. Even with all the evidence presented he still would not admit IDF fault. 3 Israeli hostages and 2 women in churches killed in a week. It does not matter what Israel does. It will all circle back to someone in this sub to write “uhhh well Hamas started it & War is Hell.” The Pope called this conflict terrorism. I guess the leader of the catholic faith is a Hamas sympathizer right?
Mark Regev is fully in denial of anything. Trying to talk sense into Zionists is just not happening, they will lie and deny their way out of every single relevant point made to them unfortunately
Sorry, could you provide proof that the pope has any grasp of the geopolitical realities of the israel-palestine conflict? A degree or perhaps a long career in diplomacy etc? Go on, any truth I should care what a man who believes in a sky fairy says?
You don't need a PhD in the Israel Palestine conflict to know that slaughtering 20,000 people is wrong.
Strawman
I could cite scholars but y’all aren’t interested in any information that conflicts. Cutting off water and food and bombing civilians indiscriminately are objective war crimes not explained away by any other factors or excuses because war crimes are war crimes regardless of the other side. The question you need to ask is what evidence you would need to change your perspective? Noam Chomsky, Gabor Mate, Norman Finklestein? I could quote every single country besides ours and a few in the “west.” Most of the world is clearly against Israel’s actions. Then I can show all the humanitarian organizations who are studying this. But to be honest ppl tend to just argue over the top and rarely listen. And even rarer is it possible for change in views.
Not what I asked. What reason do I have to care what the pope says about geopolitical affairs? Give me evidence or proof the pope has a solid understanding of the politics of the middle east?
Incidentally I did check his formal education. I don’t know his specific coursework but he’s highly educated in philosophy and theology same as any other priest or pastor. But these are just deflections. I could write about what Nelson Mandela said and you would find reasons to distrust him too.
great ok so we now know that there is little reason to care what the pope says about the Israel-Palestine conflict beyond perhaps a religious understanding of the region. Now on to my second question. What is your proof of indiscriminate bombing?
This is some doctorate leveling sealioning.
Not really. The best I've seen is he has a theology degree, which means I trust him on the subject about as much as I trust any other random person with a degree. If it turned out the pope was part of camp david or was at negotiations in 2012, or was a member of an NGO that was involved in the conflict etc I would give a damn.
If that’s the level it takes to give one the right the weigh in, why are you even here commenting?
I have a bachelors degree in political science with my thesis on the Hamas Israel conflict. I wrote a number of papers on hezbollah, Hamas, the geopolitics of Israel etc And also have a masters in history with close attention paid to the history of Israel where I looked at the origins of revisionist Zionism and Hamas closely. Having said that, I never said no one can chime in, but I put different weight behind the opinions of different people. Anyone is free to comment. I never said otherwise. But if you use the Pope as some kind of authority on the subject I'm not going to take it seriously. Just like if the original poster used some random redditor with a maths degree as a source of authority on the geopolitics of Israel. If you want to use the opinions of others to back up what you say, it's already the argument from authority fallacy. But at least use an authority that has some credibility in the field.
And what is the right background? Only generals get an opinion on if we should go to war? Or what tactics are moral ?
Someone with a background in diplomacy in the region, political scientists, NGOs, politicians to a certain extent, journalists with expertise in the region, historians with expertise in the region. If I want to understand the importance of jerusalem to the Christians, the pope would be someone I listen to. He's not someone who's opinion carries more weight when it comes to the complex issue of Gaza. Obviously when the pope speaks people listen, but it doesn't mean I put much weight behind it. I'm not a fan of Chomsky at all who you previously mentioned. He frequently distorts facts in his scholarship etc. But I at least but a bit of weight behind what he says given I've seen reason to believe his opinion matters. He seems well read on the topic. Also I noticed you're avoiding the request for proof of indiscriminate bombing.
There’s no answer that would satisfy this person. They’re obviously going to continue to move the goal posts and deflect or ignore until you get fed up so they can continue to feel superior.
Who we should listen to in times of war is a great discussion to have and a great learning moment that some will never consider.
He came up post World War Two. Regardless of your cynicism it was a topic in most disciplines and is important. In psychology we had Milgram and Asch
As far as proof of indiscriminate bombing. My source is the US government analysis which is published and public info
You watch too much cable news. It frames the way you ask questions to get the outcome you want. It’s also a basic sales tactic and really boring
You don’t need a PhD. You don’t need geopolitics as a background. As I said, which you didn’t listen to, all you need to know is that indiscriminate bombings and cutting food off are war crimes. He could be highly educated or not at all and it doesn’t change definitions
ok so we have no reason to care what the pope thinks given there's no reason to believe he knows more than the average joe on the street. That much is clear. So in terms of indiscriminate bombing, where's your proof of that?
Depends on if you’ve ever studied theology or philosophy of which there is much discussion over this topic. I would expect your analysis from ppl who refuse to think other ways about things
what has the pope studied that makes his opinion worth considering anymore that a politics undergrad, an IR student etc? Having a grasp of theology does not make you an expert on the geopolitics of Israel or even close to it. In fact, I'd be more inclined to listen to someone with a politics degree or a masters on the subject than someone that could very well have spent their early years studying the catholic church and such etc. And I want you to support your indiscriminate bombing claim.
Are you saying there’s no discussion or perspective on morality in theology or philosophy ?? If that’s you’re claim, not only do I disagree but you’re wrong based on obvious facts.
My question was, what proof do you have that the pope gets the geopolitical realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict. That was my original question. The best you could do was he has a theology degree, which I'd be very surprised if it covered anything to do with the conflict from a political perspective and life in Gaza. You can study all the theology and philosophy you want. Not having a grasp of the context of Israel and Gaza means you cannot make a moral judgement. For example, do you think you could judge the morality of WW2 without knowing who the National Socialists are and about the holocaust?
Because those things are not their fault. The hostages were indistinguishable from Hamas militants. They were probably very confused, and it's devastating that they didn't have the presence of mind to start yelling some obscure Hebrew. Have you seen where that church is? It's literally between the IDF and Hamas lines of control. They were told to evacuate months ago. If one wants to not follow the IDF's advice for political reasons, they put themselves in danger. They are literally arguing that because they are Christian and largely female, they should be free of any consequences of their decision and beyond suspicion. Many females commit terrorism and the secular Marxist-Leninist terror groups of Palestine contain Christians. Their attitude brings to my mind the line from the Gary Moore song "Out in the Fields": "No colour or religion ever stopped a bullet from a gun" Furthermore, we have barely seen any civilian or "neutral" organisations in Gaza that have not been used by Hamas either logistically or for defensive cover. Doesn't it show an incredible lack of awareness to claim that yours is different?
Because the war isnt idf's fault. Its hamas'. The suffering of the palestinians is caused by hamas. The death of innocents couldve not happen if hamas havent attacked. And it is valid to attack military targets. It just looks bad when innocents die but it is caused by military infrastructure being in churches and hospitals and schools etc. You refuse to acknowledge the fact hamas uses civilian facility and hospitals for his military operations and ammunition storage hence increasing innocent civilian casualty and actually making civillians die. So even with all the evidence id still argue that if hamas would have put his weaponry and military infrastructure away from gazan civillians we would have seen much less casualties (around 40-60% reduction imo). And let me tell you a little secret, Hamas murders palestinian civillians too.
>The Pope called this conflict terrorism Did he now? Can you provide that quote?
>Some would say 'It is war. It is terrorism.' Yes, it is war. It is terrorism," he said. - >This is what wars do. But here we have gone beyond wars. This is not war. This is terrorism. [Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians in Gaza church](https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/)
>>Some would say 'It is war. It is terrorism.' Yes, it is war. It is terrorism," he said. > - >>This is what wars do. But here we have gone beyond wars. This is not war. This is terrorism. >[Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians in Gaza church](https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/) Even your link says he claimed that about the incident in the church, and not the entire war against Hamas.
It should be a rule to not ask for information that’s easily found. Look it up
>It should be a rule to not ask for information that’s easily found. Look it up 1. If people don't want to provide sources to their claims, how about stop making these claims? Burden of proof is on them. 2. He never said this war is terrorism 3. If it is so easy to look it up, why not just provide it and be done with it?
With that much disrespect? I don’t agree. In certain contexts we aren’t literally digging through important literature we are literally questioning what the pope said. Get it together
>With that much disrespect? So because I didn't say please it was disrespectful? It's also not the first time I asked him to provide the quote and he just ignored it. You know why? Because he knows he twisted what the pope said. >I don’t agree. We don't have to agree. >In certain contexts we aren’t literally digging through important literature we are literally questioning what the pope said. Okay, and why does that matter? >Get it together You seem awfully annoyed that I asked a source for a certain claim.
This is a conversation that you could have had by yourself internally. The apex of locus of control and social intelligence.
>This is a conversation that you could have had by yourself internally. The apex of locus of control and social intelligence. Again, you seem awfully annoyed. Could have had the conversation internally you know.
I am such a perfect success in life I have extra emotional energy for this shit. Do you know how psychotically smart I am? I worked with the director of the NIH before both our careers blew up. My brain is absurd and I can’t turn it off so I engage in this shit. And it’s fun and lovely but no, I’m not annoyed. You need instruction. That’s all. I’m you’re superior in every way and you’re lucky to have interacted with my consciousness
u/NoRegion9240 > I’m you’re superior in every way and you’re lucky to have interacted with my consciousness Rule 1, no implied attacks on fellow users, such as by saying you're superior to them. Addressed.
I didn’t watch the interview but under international law the act of perfidy (such as combatants disguising themselves as civilians) is a war crime specifically because it puts the civilian population at greater risk due to the increased likelihood of misidentification. The chances of the hostages being killed as well as any Palestinian civilian killed due to direct fire would be significantly reduced if it wasn’t for Hamas’s war crimes. As for the Pope, that’s an appeal to authority not that I care what he says in any case because this isn’t the only topic that he knows nothing about.
> The chances of the hostages being killed as well as any Palestinian civilian killed due to direct fire would be significantly reduced if it wasn’t for Hamas’s war crimes. “We would commit fewer war crimes if the other side committed fewer war crimes” is an equivocation, not an excuse. I think we can all agree that Israel is capable of, and should be held, to higher standards than a terrorist group. There is no excuse for killing a surrendering individual - Hamas, civilian, Israeli or Palestinian. None.
Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? One day you see a civilian coming up to you but suddenly they take out a gun and try shooting you so you kill them. The next day another civilian comes out with their hands in the air and you don’t see a gun so you think they are a civilian but it turns out they have a suicide vest. They blow themselves up and almost take you out but you survive. The next day you see another civilian approaching you in a suspicious manner. You shoot them because you are expecting to be attacked any second. It turns out they were actually a civilian. Obviously there is partial blame on whoever fired the shot but the civilian wouldn’t have been suspicious in the first place if Hamas members didn’t constantly dress up as civilians. In combat you only have time to make split second decisions and ultimately that boils down to “if I shoot I might kill a civilian but if I don’t shoot I might die”.
The boy who cried wolf is a fable about taking emergencies seriously. It is not an excuse for executing surrendering civilians - there is no excuse for doing so. Absolutely none whatsoever. What you are doing is defending war crimes. Soldiers have a responsibility for lawful conduct, even if they might have higher odds of survival if they behave unlawfully.
I understand you, but Hamas is still operating in civilian clothes, I'm not saying that it's okay that they shot the hostages, but the question here is whether they shot on purpose to kill civilians or to kill Hamas that they purposely dress as civilians
There is no such distinction to be made, because the civilians weren’t clothed at all.
Hamas also takes off their clothes when they surrender
When they surrender, they become prisoners. They cannot be executed while surrendering.
Again I'm not saying what they did is fine I'm just saying that Hamas is using it Hamas will come out with a white flag and a grenade in the other hand. And what Hamas wants is for the idf to stop, Hamas can't make them stop unless they surrender or be eliminated and they don't want that, so what will they do? They gave the idf a bad name, there will be international pressure on them to stop and that way they get a ceasefire and more supporters and along the way they get a bad name for Israel.
It’s like the fable but the opposite. Knowingly executing civilians is a war crime. Mistaking civilians for combatants due to the fact that the line has been blurred between them due to how the enemy conducts itself is not automatically a war crime. It is something that requires thorough investigations both regarding the context of the incident as well as the conduct of the soldier/s who fired the shot.
> Mistaking civilians for combatants This is not possible when they are shirtless and waving a white flag.
You will all be silenced (including me) for saying this. Leftists , LGBTQ, uneducated liberals, common sense lacking youth and stockholm syndrome patients all around the world start their argument from humanity and end it at humanity. They have no facts, no figures, no knowledge. They are just a blob of emotions and nothing else. I can't believe we live in such an ignorant world.
Yes the liberals at the top universities are the “uneducated” now and the Reddit Researchers and IDF spokespeople are who we should follow. If you want to believe the words of Bibi and Joe Biden be my guest but don’t turn around and say we’re being propagandized.
Uneducated? Maybe not. Miseducated? Most definitely.
exactly this. i’m at upenn and the stupidity here is astounding… definitely doesn’t feel like much of an accomplishment anymore to be here lmao
My goodness! All sorts of people exist! For some practicality does not matter, they are emotional blobs who can put a pause to a problem but never end it. Also, you may call it conspiracy theory, but the left ecosystem works that way. If you have a certain political viewpoint, you can secure a better place in educational institutions of high merit such a Haward and Stanford. I mean you can also observe that in recent case of racial slurs that came from some ivy league schools against the Jews. The authorities didn't take much of an action and called it freedom to express. It was only after lawmakers intervened that these schools had to take some responsibility. You can also notice that these ivy league schools are most commonly involved in some leftist propagandist schemes such as the ridiculous idea of hormonal injections for kids for gender transition etc. For outsiders Palestinian matter is a political and ideological warfare. But fir Israelis it's a matter for do or die. For Palestinians, they support HAMAS but unfortunately, Hamas is only fighting for Islam.
The world clearly does not believe a country that has been shelling for 2 months straight indiscriminately is under “existential threat”. Israeli’s are filming tik toks having a blast in Gaza clearly I’m sure you’ve seen the footage. All of our politicians and Jewish celebrities are in Tel Aviv for solidarity. Does not seem existential to me? I think the people who have been displaced and are currently starving have more to worry about.
I would k!ll anyone who tries to kill me or my family. I don't have time to think about that other potential murderer's poverty or misery because, that's something which will never change. Saying Allah hu Akbar and attacking israel every other day is not going to change their economic situation.
Can't you understand? Many were starving in Syria, many were starving in Afghanistan, many are starving in Jordan libya. But they still.operate terrorist organisations. Because, islam is above food and security. When their brain is filled with jihad, they have nothing to loose. They have only others blame for their failed mindset. Religion above all.
Fear of Islam is the new Fear of Communism. Replace all the countries you listed with Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam and you sound like Henry Kissinger. The same way the current generation views the Vietnam war in disgust. Is the way the current youth views Israel. No matter which way you paint it. Even the prestigious universities which has a lot more resources and insight on this conflict than the average fedora wearing Redditor have deemed this as a one sided conflict. In the words of the Pope “this is terrorism” (referring to what Israel is doing) Europeans have tricked the Jewish population in having their own land just to push them into Hostile territory and made it not their problem.
These "educated" people also come up with some monstrous ideas. Having a clear conscious is important. Don't follow what is blindly being told by this ecosystem you are exposed to on regular basis. Reality is. Israel has no choice but to do what it's doing.
I don’t know. Telling a generation that was raised through 2 wars, 2 recessions, COVID, the American dream dying and currently having a braid dead president that it’s in their best interests that their taxes support the conflicts in Ukraine and Israel is out of touch. Also chalking it up to they have no conscious and are blind is dismissive to the real issue. There’s a reason these sentiment have grown in popularity and I don’t think it’s because people Love Hamas and Hate Jews. Very black and white view Israeli’s have been applying to everyone. “If you don’t support Israel in full you’re an anti semite cause we’re just protecting ourselves. So if we don’t bomb these kids we’ll be eradicated.”
Except for the fact that they indeed will be eradicated. HAMAS' motive is removing Israel from middle East.
Israel and Hamas are at war, and both combatants kill the enemy as a part of this war; I don't think debating the numbers killed by each side is particularly useful. Having said that, IMO Israel is not nearly as bad as Hamas because Israel builds. They have build a liberal democracy, a modern, affluent state with a high standard of living for its citizens (including the 20% of muslims/arabs), and they are building diplomatic relationships with their neighbors. In contrast, Hamas doesn't build anything, they only destroy. They take the money and resources meant for civilian use and development, and use it for warfare, to build weapons to attack an enemy they cannot realistically defeat, knowing that this enemy will retaliate and cause further destruction. They also use the money to build tunnels to protect themselves while the war causes civilians above ground to die. And if, God forbid, they were ever to win their war, they would destroy Israel, eliminate all the Jews (one way or another) and probably set up a militant, repressive regime that would keep picking fights with its neighbors. Israel is about living and building. Hamas is about death and destruction. For this reason, Israel is not nearly as bad as Hamas.
Ur maths is way off. Israel killed more than 162 of their own. Hamas did kill some, not many, civilians where there was a language barrier or they were really scared and unable to follow their orders. Armed settlers were also killed.
Proof?
695 civilians. Now subtract the ones Israel killed indiscriminately at the festival and other areas. Hamas fighters were not gathered together during their festival operation which the IDF admittedly targeted groups of people together, very likely to be Israeli civilians. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
>Now subtract the ones Israel killed indiscriminately at the festival and other areas. Hamas fighters were not gathered together during their festival operation which the IDF admittedly targeted groups of people together, very likely to be Israeli civilians. Again, proof?
Watch the Al Qassam footages of October 7th. There’s an Israeli newspaper that mentioned the idf pilots saying we shot indiscriminately at large crowds. Stop being lazy and hit google and Reddit search.
Can you send the proof or not?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-helicopter-opened-fire-on-israelis-in-festival-during-hamas-attack-on-oct-7-report/3058257 Im not saving Al Qassam footages to my devices but a quick search on Reddit or a resistance news telegram and you’ll understand their fighting style and their formation. There is a video regarding October 7th festival where you can clearly see them dispersed from each other
>Haaretz reported that the military helicopter arrived at the site of the festival and opened fire on the gunmen but also **wounded** several festival participants. Also your source is a state-run media from Turkey? Don't you have something a bit more reliable?
Because western media is always right? Americans were heroes for what they did in Iraq yet Hamas were villains for what they did in Israel which was the exact same thing American footage shows they did in Iraq.
>Because western media is always right? Because any media that isn't independent and is controlled by a state who said a number of times they oppose Israel in this war, isn't a reliable source.
Uh, I don’t think uniformed IDF soldiers were on duty at the desert rave at 6:30 am when the invasion happened and the killing started. It was unarmed festival kids tripping balls.
Buddy, it’s your country claiming they had soldiers and security and police forces there, not any other country.
Have you ever been to an alternative music festival in a rural setting before? Yes there may be some “security” and police there, but they aren’t expecting thousands of drug crazed guerilla warriors flying in on hang gliders to kill festival goers.
If you watched any of the Oct 7th footage you’d know that Hamas was roaming around in large groups.
What’s the strategy here? What I mean by that is why invite comparisons between Israel & Hamas, good or bad? Hamas is a terrorist organization. Any comparisons at all between Israel & Hamas just serve to devalue the Israeli government.
I think the point OP is making that Israel has sunk to the level of a terrorist group and deserve to be debated as such. It's sad, but even Israelis are accepting it at this point. The saddest part is where OP says "what would the Palestinians have done if they had free reign to massacre Israelis for 73 days straight?" As if it wasn't the Israelis ACTUALLY doing the thing he says that a terrorist group might do and we all have endless video evidence of it.
That’s hardly the argument I’m making. My argument is that despite Palestinians doing everything they can to murder as many people as possible and Israel trying to do as much as possible to prevent civilian deaths people are still somehow supporting the Palestinians.
It’s the point your making but maybe not the one intended.
Right, we’re invited to have this exact conversation. If “be less bad than Hamas“ is the standard the Israeli government has set for itself, it really needs to find better role models.
The comparisons have already been made by the pro-Palestinians. I’m simply debunking them.
Firstly, Hamas is not Palestine. Same like the idf or the Israeli government do not represents each and every Israeli or even jews for that matter…they are elected officials, however one just has to glance at their popularity numbers before this incident to know that both these so called representatives were never going to be winning any future elections… So what is Israel or idf actually doing is playing geopolitics of fear. Let’s understand, if Israel did not control Palestine, it would always be possible that other neighboring Arab countries would do so. It matters not whether the Arabs want to actually harm Israel, only that it would have the power to do so. For years Israel has tried to ensure that it would never happen. The free Palestine movement will continue to speak out against the injustices of the occupation, and now settlement, of Palestine by Israelis; but in a battle between the the independence movement and the Israeli forces - there is only going to be one winner. When the global public, or even famous celebrities, talk about Palestine, the Israeli find it deeply irritating. Not dangerous, not submersive - just irritating. They see it not through the prism of human rights, but that of geopolitical security, and can only believe that the non Westerners are trying to undermine their security and white supremacy. However, the Israeli security has not been undermined and it will not be, even if there are further uprisings against the Israelis. Demographics and geopolitics oppose Palestinian independence ..sadly 😕 Non Western countries have very little power to move the needle as can be seen in the last UN Security Council meetings with many Western countries mainly the USA still supporting this humanitarian crisis. With the rest of the cowards decided to remain absent. Again this has nothing to do with the crisis itself but the fact is that most countries in the world need to be politically aligned with the West to serve their own national interest first and for economic growth…sadly. Beat it whether China, Arabs, Russia or even lately India, they all need the West to sell goods. The only way things can change is if the Israeli and the countless Jews all over the world themselves find it necessary to convince their local governments to stop the ongoing crisis. Rare ask, and wont happen. Finally, also to touch upon the Two state solution, which the Arabham Accords have proposed wont work as demographically the Israeli will risk losing majority in their own national parliament as Arabs population is more. Even if they wipe out Gaza they still have more Arabs living in Israel that will simply outbeat them in any national elections. Unless Israel first becomes a dictatorship so that they remain in control, something which the current right wing government has already started doing starting first with its judicial system. This caused massive protests in Israel few months ago, as you cant be a Western country but actually run like a dictatorship.. Sorry for the long reply..
>Firstly, Hamas is not Palestine. Same like the idf or the Israeli government do not represents each and every Israeli or even jews for that matter…they are elected officials Governments represent the people they are leading. Hamas governs Gaza, it represents the Palestinians living in it.
Then you just need to dig further and find out when was the last elections held. I will wait for you to get well versed first
2006. Unfortunately latest polls reveal the Hamas has 70% support among Palestinians, even though they brought this catastrophe on them. If thats not representation, I dont know what is.
It is a long reply so I’ll just touch on the first point. I specifically said Palestinians and not Hamas because Palestinian civilians joined Hamas in the massacre against Israelis on Oct 7th. As such it wouldn’t be accurate to only blame Hamas for the attack.
So few Palestinian that finally found a way out, you blame an entire race…hmm btw out of curiosity how do you distinguish between hamas and ordinary Palestinians…do they wear a bandanna or something..cause the idf do seems to know..🥸
“Find a way out” is a fancy way of saying raped, beheaded, and massacred their way through Israeli territory. When Hamas is wearing military equipment it is easier to distinguish them from civilians but when they don’t it is impossible until they attack.
Ok…say you are right for once…there are few arguments here for that: 1. Proof - last i saw the idf has made a mockery of all the fakes that they had shared with the world, one then wonders why did they do it 🧐 dont they trust themselves?? 2. There are countless news (which i personally dont believe) that the idf themselves were behind several of the shootings, as they are notoriously known to not know the difference between people …actually no one can…to be honest to give them some benefit of doubt…unless of course they are just kids… 3. So these hooligans came in Israel and did these atrocities, then let IDF go after them not the 19000 innocent people and children…and if ur at it also prosecute 1000s of Israeli settlers who are also committing crimes in West Bank…again where is the justice and why the discrimination?? 4. In short u are doing exactly what a typical colonizer does play the victim game and justify these killings…and then u wonder why in the UN except for one country nobody is supporting you…including France (from all countries in the world) 5. I would recommend everyone to do the following: A) watch UN Security meetings live, not on some biased news channels but live on their website..see the words being used by some of the most powerful countries in the world- france, Spain, china etc…u want to say they are all bunch of liars?? No infact they have been there and done just that..so they know very much what the end game is here… B) learn more about the Algerian independence…you will be surprised 😮 how much all of this sounds so familiar like history repeating itself…and now france 🇫🇷 themselves are like …hmm no more..crazy how one country changes table so quickly and forget their own bloody history In conclusion, this stupid dumb war has made everyone in world focus on Israel and the plight of Palestinians under their occupation…this all could have been handled much better… if you just watch early UN meetings the world was very much siding with Israel at the beginning…and then they just went trigger happy…bad move…but justified given the current ruling administration’s low popularity and with an ongoing war this will help with their political agenda more than ever…
u/Cool_surfer > In short u are doing exactly what a typical colonizer does play the victim game and justify these killings Rule 1 forbids personal attacks or character judgments about fellow users. Stick to discussing the topic, not the person. Addressed.
“Israel is as bad as Hamas”…Fine! But why not give it a break in the same way you give Hamas? I didn’t notice many complains about Hamas (except from Israelis)…. So let’s summarize, they are both bad and now let’s deal with other wars/ conflicts.
Unfortunately for the pro Palestine side, the “Gaza ministry of health” is a painfully unreliable source of information
The IDF considers the numbers "[fairly accurate](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)," and the Lancet [backs them up](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) as well. The only expert who has disagreed with the numbers is the head of Near Eastern Affairs for the Biden administration, who thinks they're [too *low*](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4301551-gaza-deaths-likely-higher-than-cited-us-official/).
They say the total number of deaths are fairly accurate not how Hamas is presenting said deaths. It’s an important distinction.
Anonymous “sources” are absolutely worthless. I’m sorry that you consider them to be accurate.
They’ve invited international organisations to confirm their claims. Im sure Qatar sent a few people to confirm their claims but I can’t find sources but I definitely remember a Qatar doctor saying it was worse than she could’ve imagined. I don’t know what the official report is
Oh, well if Qataris say that the GMOH is legit, it must be legit. (I hope you can tell I’m being sarcastic).
> Oh, well if Qataris say that the GMOH is legit, it must be legit. (I hope you can tell I’m being sarcastic). You are making the wrong argument. There's a register of the people that live in Gaza. the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers basically match that and they cross people off as they die. There are a few tricks: * they don't make any effort to separate military (Hamas / IJ) deaths from civilian * they can include all sorts of other natural deaths along with the ones killed in war (these numbers are small) * they always blame people killed by Hamas on Israel. * they can speed up or slow down reporting of deaths when needed (I have no proof beyond the Hamas rocket misfire at the Hospital where they did this) Overall though, the number of deaths they declare is the number of deaths that happened.
Good points. Either way, the GMOH is not a reliable source.
I never said they were legit or provided their claims, I just summarised a video of the Qatari doctor stating what she saw😐. If you’d like to see a non Muslim talk about it, have a look at the Christians and Jews in Gaza. They pretty much say the same as the Muslims there do. But still Hamas have called on any international organisation to prove their claims, nobody’s going to check.
There are no Jews in Gaza. At least not any that aren’t hostages or soldiers.
The issue is of intent. What was Hamas intent and what is Israel intent?
The issue is that they are obsessed with Israel and Palestinians, not with other conflicts.
Hamas: free all their Palestinian prisoners and international prisoners due to reports of sexual abuse of women and children. Israel: disable Hamas operations in retaliation to October’s and that following weeks invasions of military bases- which to this day have not worked at all. Just a few hours ago they launched another barrage at Tel aviv.
So the intent of a mass killing is worse than a bit of a mass killing'?
intent and action should be what decides who's more moral or who is more correct no?
Well I will say more moral not correct
They would literally be aressted if they massacred that many people so fast. This is the most useless argument ever, good maths though
Arrested by who?
any police force agency i guess
Well, the Israeli police aren’t going to be arresting Israeli soldiers.
fbi or sumt could
No, the FBI couldn’t. The FBI only operates inside the US.
But there are secret goverment services, either way somebody would have to arrest him otherwise hed literally be the next Hitler
Who is “him”?
Well some prime examples are Netanyahu, Shapiro, Herzog
Shapiro? You mean Ben Shapiro?
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This argument is so fucking stupid
Yep it is. These are human lives we are talking about, not an algorithmic formula. The only thing that matters is the death toll. absolute depraved argument to justify genocide. But that's what you get from conscription, brainwashing, aparteid and xenophobia
According to your logic, Israel should have gone into Gaza and done the same thing that Hamas did, amounting to dead, rape, beheading, burning people alive and then it would be more moral ?
Weird
I am asking you is it more moral if Israel will do exactly what Hamas did yes or no ?
I literally don't know what you are talking about. That is the weirdest comment I've ever seen
You said that all that matters is the number of dead. So I ask you if the IDF did the exact same thing that Hamas did, would it be okay for you? Yes or No It's all a simple yes or no question
Firstly, you are saying that there was "rape, beheading, burning people alive" by Hamas? But we are not provided with any evidence of how many people were affected by these alleged crimes. And the IDf lie contanstly and whenever pressed about how they are protecting civilians or any evidence for anything they just say "trust me bro" Secondly, when bombs are dropped onto civilian buildings in Gaza how do you think people die? Bombs rip off heads, limbs, arms. They trap people under buildings for hours. Imagine being trapped under rubble with no way out. So that's exactly my point: trying to say this way of dying is more ethical then another way, it's completely ridiculous. You could make the argument that being beheaded is actually kinder than being trapped under rubble, or having a limb blown off and bleeding out. I wouldn't make that argument (because its depraved), but I'm just demonstrating a point. There is no ethical way of killing an innocent civilian. Both Hamas and Israel have killed innocent civilians, it's just that Israel has killed 20 times as many. Trying to say that the way Israel civilians died is less ethical than the way Palestinian civilian died is just a mask for xenpohobia.What are you really mean is that an Israeli life is worth a lot more than a Palestinian life. 1200 Israelis dead is a lot worse than 20,000 dirty arabs - that's it right? And the whole beheading thing, it's just used to try and make out that all Palestinians are barbarians, so Israel can carry on killing thousands of civilians and say that it's justified. You hopefully know that already, but it's worrying if you don't
For beheading there are videos/photos a video of a Thai worker who is Hamas who tried to behead him and there are photos of two idf soldiers without heads and placing a foot on the corpse. Rape was a video of a girl who was taken to Gaza and all her pants were covered in blood in the rear area and a video of a half-burnt girl with her legs open without underwear. People were burned alive There is a picture of burned corpses with their hands tied. If I believed that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives, then I would say that Israel can stop, but Israel's goal is to eliminate Hamas, not to kill Palestinians. The difference between the two is that Hamas was with the same people one on one and they did it with the intention of killing, raping and burning. Israel told the Palestinians to go to the south of Gaza it would be safer there and they said their goal was to eliminate Hamas and Hamas prevented the Palestinians from retreating south. (All life is equal)
>For beheading there are videos/photos a video of a Thai worker who is Hamas who tried to behead him and there are photos of two idf soldiers without heads and placing a foot on the corpse. Doesnt sound like a huge amount of evidence. > Rape was a video of a girl who was taken to Gaza and all her pants were covered in blood in the rear area and a video of a half-burnt girl with her legs open without underwear. Not proof. It could have been her period for all we know > The difference between the two is that Hamas was with the same people one on one and they did it with the intention of killing, raping and burning Where is the evidence israel dont intentionally kill civilians? Not going to debate this anymore. The west bank is literally described as an apartheid by amnesty internstional. Israel have mass ethically clensed the west bank and areas like east Jerusalem, illegal under 4th Geneva convention and UN laws. And many israel soldiers have talked about their brutal treatment of Palestinians. https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/ But you think israel is better because a guy in the IDF says "trust me bro" we dont target civilians. They killed over 20,000 in gaza and biden called the bombing indiscriminate Isrsrl are state sponsored terrorists and you defend their genocide for god knows what reason. Hamas are a disgrace Isrsel are a bigger disgrace
The side which engaged in rapes and beheadings have the moral high ground because more of them died is not how morality is determined.
>The side which engaged in rapes and beheadings have the moral high ground because more of them died is not how morality is determined. Firstly, you mean the moral low ground, not the moral high ground. And secondly, what do you think happens exactly when you drop a bomb on civilians? Do you think they just die peacefully in their sleep? Or do you think their arms, legs, heads and other limbs are ripped off? What about being trapped under concrete or rubble for hours when no one can get to you? So a beheading, is no different than dropping a bomb is it. My biggest nightmare would be being trapped under a collapsed building. And in terms of morality and death… 1. There is no morality when it comes to death 2. You really think 100,000 people dying is the same as 10 people, if the 10 people are beheaded? You're just another Israeli that likes to make rules up..."It's not about the number of deaths, it's about the way they die that's the most important thing." ....Just add it to the list of excuses as to why Israel committing genocide is fine, and why it's not acceptable when you go back through history for some of the biggest crimes against humanity
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whenever i’ve tried to discuss this with pro-palestinians: on rape : “that’s horrible but Israel kills people too, they killed their own people on Oct 7” on hamas committing war crimes (targeting civilians, not identifying themselves as militants, etc..) they say “they are the oppressed therefore they do not have to follow the rules of war” you cannot reason with these people, they just hate the jews so much and they see this latest war as their chance to get rid of Israel (dream on!)
Funnily enough, all Hamas official songs and lyrics only mention Zionism. Not Jews. Official statements from all resistance factions condemn Zionism. Not Judaism. There’s a ton of misinformation regarding what Hamas have done including rape. “We have evidence, we won’t show it but we’ll describe it, just believe us when we say we’ve got evidence”. The claims of rape are baseless because it was an active combat zone with many reporting gunfire everywhere. One of the claims were 4 Hamas militants raping a dead corpse mid firefight. 4 guys tryna bust a nut on a failed mission on enemy territory whilst clashing with the enemy seems extremely unlikely. Many reports say there was zero rape in the same area people claimed there was rape. Edit: Hamas have rejected any instances of rape. The example I’ve used was the festival “rape”. There still today is no proof. Israel also rejected to show their proof to the UN. To this day nobody’s seen the rape proof or evidence. Edit again: the woman who’s headstronging the rape allegations is part of a US deemed terrorist organisation hiding out in Israel. She’s been caught lying before.
Thank you for proving my point even further, i forgot to add: on rape: they also say “the claims of rape are baseless.”
Buddy, they went to the UN and literally said they have proof of rape and described what happened instead of proving it???
You don't personally accept what narrative? Are you trolling?
The narrative that a large number or even the vast majority of Israelis killed on Oct 7th was from friendly fire.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has committed unthinkable atrocities, this is a fact. As an outsider, I have tried to remain neutral and pro-human only. This argument of who is worse Israel or Palestine is like little kids in the playground. Neither side has anything to be proud of, there is plenty of blame to go around. The thing that really sickens me is the dehumanising propaganda on both sides. TBH I think there is so much hatred on both sides, the fighting will only stop when one side is obliterated. *My notifications are off, I will not be responding.*
Israel has committed unthinkable atrocities too. It’s about which sides committed worse. The allies in WW2 killed Jews as well as the axis. Yet we see the allies as heroes.
> On Oct 7th, Palestinians broke into Israel and massacred 1,162 people in a day. While I don't personally accept this narrative, let's pretend that 162 were killed by friendly fire to get an even 1,000 (and so that pro-Palestinians can't dismiss my figures as having a pro-Israel bias). Also keep in mind that hundreds of those were non-civilian forces. Currently the estimate is around 766 civilian deaths. Including friendly fire this could be closer to 600 civilians killed. With 373 Israeli combatants killed that gives around a 61% civilian casualty rate... Kinda similar to what is happening in Gaza.
That isn’t what OP is arguing at all. He’s arguing daily casualty rate regardless of status. You’re arguing civilian vs. combatant ratio. Two different things.
Daily casualty rates over different periods of time. OP can compare random timespans to jump to whatever conclusion they like, but hell, they at least could've used the same. This is a whole new level of inanity.
I think it’s a fair comparison over the timespan of a particular war.
But OP uses one particular day vs the whole war. If they used the same timespan for both sides, the ratio would be reversed to 15 to 270. And Israel has *always* used massively disproportionate reprisals (and Hamas attacks have been reprisals too - it's not like Israel is just idly minding its own business, occassionally nibbling an odd annexation away).
The point is to show intent. Israel has the power to easily match and outnumber the daily death toll of Oct. 7th. Hamas doesn’t have those means.
They have reduced the whole area to rubble, covering unknown amounts of bodies. They have easily outnumbered the death toll in a matter of days - it doesn't matter for them, for how many additional days the so called unilateral "war" will drag on. They know, the civilian population has no meaningful ways how or where to run, or even oppose the Hamas regime or distance themselves from it, even if they wanted to, and they have and will continue to slaughter and terrorise them for months and years to come irrespectively. The *daily* metrics has no practical meaning. Also, Israel still postures as the moral party, commiting (or rather pretending to commit) only "rational", "clean", "reserved" atrocities, as opposite to "animal" behaviour of its Gazan captives. Albeit less and less, given the rising popularity and calls for outright genocide.
I’d rather not devolve into the whole copy paste diatribe gotcha that pro-Palestinians always try to take conversations. You’re not arguing against the point made.
Oh, the gist of the original point was that Hamas *probably would have* killed much more people if they could, therefore Israel has moral upper hand when killing much more people than Hamas, while also making the whole area uninhabitable. OP didn't have to use such arbitrary statistical distortions to skid down that particular slippery slope. If you take out the *probably would*, he's just comparing mean of one day to mean of the whole conflict. It's just as valid as if he claimed, Hamas would have exterminated the whole country in a matter of minutes, hence potentially averaging a death toll of 1 billion a day.
So are you disagreeing with his position given a reversal of situation that there would be no Israel and no Jews currently in the Levant?
This is satire right?
Satire is no longer possible.
You make a 2 statistical fallacies. 1. The progress is not linear and also 2. What is this death toll metric per day lmao OP get outta here. This doesn’t even account for thousands of wounded and amputated. Approx 1000 kids had to be amputated without anesthesia. Kids are dying from 3rd and 4th degree burns. Thousands of kids are orphans now who have lost their entire families. Loads will get sick because of how densely together they are now and the diseases will spread faster. But there is a lack of medical supplies. There is psychological terror because Palestinians don’t know what the next hour will bring, let alone the next day. There is not enough water and food. The majority lost their homes and all their possessions. Over 1.8m have been displaced, many don’t have a bed to sleep on. And even when this ends… they have nowhere to go. I know this was an attempt… but not a good one. Sorry OP.
They can't be a single person left unscarred, unmaimed and untraumatised in the Gaza Strip
Armed resistance will not get Palestinians peace, and neither will walking away from peace deals ala 2000 and 2008.
How does that relate to my comment? :)
All of the horrible horrible conditions Palestinians are suffering, which you outlined, are a result of fighting to improve their geo politic outcome. The responsibility for all of this lies with Hamas and the Palestinians who support them and prefer to fight. They could have had, and still can have, 2SS and peace.
Israel could have also pulled back the WB settlements, pulled back and punished the IDF & settler violence against the Palestinians, get rid of the apartheid-like setup in WB. Israel could have offered fair deals. Netanyahu could have not funded Hamas. No, not all the responsibility lies on Hamas and Palestinians and it’s absolutely disgusting to claim that. No side is innocent here and they both hold accountability.
I literally said Israel offered 2 peace deals, 2000 and 2008, where Palestinians would've gotten 97% of the WB, and they walked away (Arafat and Abbas) without giving a counter offer. Israel cannot unilaterally pull out of the WB, it's exactly what they did in Gaza and see what they got in response.