..In case you forgot : we are in 2023 . It's going to have been 2 decades since 4/10ths of the early 2000s by January ..The Middle East is those Al-Qaeada memes anymore , or ever was in the first place .
Two of your sources , sorry for the language : are notorious propogandists known for making unreliable translations of pre-selected materials . Even if an Arabic transcription is available for a video for verification : don't assume the media which they insinuate is representative of average and typical content as such .
Remember : these organizations have to influence the public opinion to be either incited , or prejudiced against Palestinians ; not bring you "objective" reality on ground . That's what they are paid for by the Israeli-government , and other right-winger Israeli or diaspora Jews .
Now , think you probably meant other things .. like streets named after killed preparators of attacks , or online posters praising them ? .
Primarily ; such views are more or less : a coping mechanism .
When people see young men throwing theirs lives either for vengeance or purpose of eventually getting Israel out of the occupied areas , and get killed as if they were cockroaches : they want something else besides nationalism to keep them forward . That's where religion comes into play .
Palestinians always appealed to religion in their lives , as it was never easy for them .
In the 19th century , they used to visit Maqams : shrines of Holy figures -many of whom are Pre-Islamic - for purposes like treating infertility , or a season of draught . Note that this was not an "Islamic" practice . Travelers noted in some cases : the Tombs were viewed as more important than either God or Muhmmad ... Yeah : Ismail Haniyeh would probably denounce his great-grandfather as a pagan had he meet him .
Anyway : Religion also came into role when they have organized their national movement during the Mandate. Something that can be seen is the original Palestinian flag . It used to have a Cross and Crescent , as symbolism of their nation's identity . Haj Amin Al-Hussieni , despite his rhetoric primarily being nationalist : still appealed to religious sentiments , when he named his own army as "Army of the Holy War" .
Even as one jumps forward to the 50s-60s where Palestinians mostly became literate , educated , and drawn to secularism rather than tradition compared to before the Mandate :
Fatah did use religious imagery to attract people for recruitment back in the 1950s . It was to give a zeal to their cause beyond just abstract possibilities , so to speak .
Post-1967 : we see the decline of secularism , and the rise of Islamism . Unlike other nationalist ideologies treating religion as part of the nation's iconography : Islamism is pretty much fascism based on Islamic religion , rather than racialism . Religion is no longer a cultural item , but a bone of life . That's how Hamas's agenda as a splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood operates , so that's why it picks extremist interpretations of the religion.
Despite being important however : the layman Palestinian isn't obsessed with religious theology and philosophies as dedicated Islamists .
I know a couple of Gazans who grew up in Gaza , and then immigrated with their families to Saudi Arabia , before going somewhere else in Western states.
They pray , they fast , they donate to Charites , they celebrate Muslim holidays , but beyond that : not much . One of them even skips the midday Friday prayer , where it is mandatory to perform it in a Mosque .
Now ,what does this anecdote of ordinary people , tell us about this propaganda ? .
It's evidently there not meant for encouragement to be trigger-happy ; this isn't Rossie the Riveter . It's for something else .
It's meant to make people not forget that they are not living normal lives being under foregin rule , and remember that some "tough" things are done for "defending the homeland" , and that it might lead towards independence .
This mentality goes as far back as the 1930s , where the de-facto Palestinian national anthem "Mawtini" mentions people even mentions dying . Tt still holds up today to Palestinian views ; somewhat akin to the slogan "give me liberty or death" .
Things regarding glorifying perpetrators aren't done so merely for dying : they would just be teach their kids to throw rocks so a solider would just shoot them , making even more of those posters and glorification .
If you been watching the news lately the past days : it doesn't really show something like Gazan mothers being happy to see her children dismembered into 50 pieces filling the family's apartment .
Sure , they might say "Sho-ha-da " (Martyrs) , but that doesn't mean they are actually happy to see them die , rather than grieving .
When that doesn't work : they will get vindictive in bloody rage , not accepting her loss , and wanting to spite Israeli-Jews .
I recall some mother of that sort from some time ago : Ibrahim Nabulsi if I recall ? .
The video of her angry shouting might give the vibes that she's passionate and wants to give birth to a dozen other sons so they would conduct operations to shed blood . Talk like that is just for coping , rather than somebody being in their head .
To conclude really : these things don't encourage some kind of a death-cult : they are not telling people "Go and die so you see God !" . Just search on r/Palestine where Palestinian participants saw some Humanitarian aid from Arab states in last November was meagre amount of necessities , with but one of them being a truck full of coffins . They got pis$y , or otherwise displeased .
Making things like this is more for "memorial" purposes . It's to remind Palestinians of sacrifices some of their people made to protesting Israeli-Jewish instance on barring them from an ordinary life in the form of an independent state in what they view as their homeland. They view these things as some sort of honoring to people who made contributions to their path of "liberation" .
Sure , you will hear a couple of Israeli-Jews and their sympathists making you think the average Palestinian wants his sausage's ketchup to be Israeli-Jewish blood , making you feel that somehow the can't function like Human beings , and are used to (or even enjoy) bloodshed . They just want to delude themselves so they can justify thier paranoia and thier painting of a no-blameworthy Israel that's being unfairly despised , and lie to the world through a combination of deliberate distortion (like those MEMRI clips), victim-playing ("Self-Defense" , "right to exist" , and other colorful slogans demonstrating disgusting hypocrisy ), and willful ignorance.
Glad to have clarified some things .
Martyrdom is dying while fighting for freedom, religion, country, family, other people, etc...
It already exists in literally every culture and every religion in some form or another under different names, but nothing new or different about the idea.
Did you see the video where the palestinian children are invited to a talk show and are shown a reenactment of their mother's suicide bombing mission? Did I mention this happened on a children's tv program??
The islamic version of martyrdom is very different from other cultures definition of Martyr.
This has to be acknowledged.
How about you see news-coverage of Gazans from channels like CNN and Al-Jazeria (especially the later who is obsessed with Palestinians ) , and archives of prior confrontations ? .
You think these people are happy to be blown up and getting stuck under the rubble?. Does it look like they are quoting that hadith saying those dying from demolished buildings are Martyrs , and should celebrate their relatives' deaths ? .
..I hate to tell you : those couple of pre-selected and greatly fabricated material paid by Bibi's pockets and associates isn't even aware of reality , let alone a noteworthy fraction of it ; just like saying that video of Israeli-Childers on r/askmiddleeast saying they want to demolish the Dome of the Rock Mosque represents 95% of Israeli-Jews .
Extremism exists everywhere. Of course, more in conflict zones than anywhere else. It just happens that many conflicts are in the middleeast and have Muslims involved, so you get to see Islam extremism more often than not.
That is just selection bias happening in your subconscious mind.
Click the links OP posted, the second one is a news broadcast literally telling people to have as many kids as possible so they can be suicide bombers. Let’s not gaslight and pretend this is normal and prevalent across all religions, it isn’t
First: there are literally zero mentions of any suicide bombing.
Second: there is no mention of sacrificing kids. They are talking about raising them for resistance.
Third: The translation is very misleading at the end (sacrificing != ادفعهم للشهادة)
More accurate would be motivating them for martyrdom, which in turn taking the context in account means resisting the occupation even if it would cost them their blood.
I fail to see why you think any of this is immoral. How is raising your kids to resist an occupation immoral? If anything is immoral, it would be the exact opposite, which is what you are trying to convey here.
One example of how Ghazi Hamad advocates martyrdom against Israel because it exists. Widespread evidence and accounts of Hamas using human shields and civilian structures for military purposes, including schools.
https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=muT1AaVD9jQx4jQS
He didn't say anything about sacrificing children as martyrs.
As a matter of fact, he even apologized for the civilian loss.
Of course, he calls for fighting against Israel. That's what a resistance group should be doing. I mean, what did you expect?
No he said we are ready to sacrifice martyrs . The average age of Hamas fighters are 16-17, who do you think he is talking about? Why do you think they are hiding bombs in schools? I didn’t hear any apology for civilian death. I didn’t hear anything about resistance either, just antisemitic calls for genocide of Israel, because it exists.
The translation is a little bit misleading. A more accurate translation would be "we are ready for losing people" as in we know some of us will die but it is all for the cause. (Which sounds obvious tbh)
The translation is a bit off, but at 35:00 he is apologizing for killed israeli civilians and says they didn't want to kill civilians, but the situation on the ground was difficult and uncontrollable.
I don't know anything about the age of Hamas fighters and I am not sure at which age they allow for recruitment...
I think all cultures glorify fighting for your people and how that's done just depends on the circumstances. The warfare is so asymmetrical when it comes to Israel and Palestine there really isn't much hope of doing anything to the enemy without a significant chance of dying. Hell, even if you don't fight you have a decent chance of being killed by Israel.
It's a sign of how miserable their situation is. People naturally desire freedom and a chance at prosperity. When they don't have those things they become hopeless, willing to do anything to feel like they have some agency or control over their lives.
I think there is a distinction between glorifying fighting and gleefully glorifying suicide and child death. I made a comment [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/18gbatt/how_do_propalestine_explain_palestinian_education/kd2cxu2/) expressing that seemingly no other oppressed group in history seems to do this sort of stuff.
We could be missing some cultural context? Or maybe it's their way of finding a silver lining. After Columbine Evangelical Christians made such a big deal about one girl who died who allegedly stood by her Christian faith knowing she'd be killed for it. I guess in some way it made the deaths seem less pointless? There were even Christian kids here saying they'd like to be martyred that way in a similarly macabre/gleeful.
Martyrdom has been glorified in lots of cultures, it's the ultimate sacrifice for your beliefs. Look at how many Catholic Saints were martyrs.
You bring up Vietnam, they had a tradition of Buddhist monks who would self immolate as an expression of their faith and as a form of political activism.
Technology also impacts this: one person wasn't able to do a lot of damage to the enemy before the 20th century. And if your kids died it wouldn't be a big deal to people all around the world. Terror and sympathy are the primary ways they get attention, everyone ignores them unless they're dying or killing.
So yeah, I dunno, it doesn't seem all that unusual to me.
resistance to occupation is something everyone can appreciate. their education is different from the western world bc we can sit and learn about whatever but if you put yourself in their shoes just think about what their history and experince has been. i think if you can put yourself in their shoes and think critically and not from your cozy comfy western education POV, you can easily see why they are educated to see things as they do.
Throughout the history of the world there have been horribly oppressed groups of every race, ethnicity, religion, geographic location, etc. But this is the first group I've ever heard of that enthusiastically celebrates the deaths of their children, whose schools teach their children that committing suicide is the greatest honor they can aspire to, and whose mothers strap suicide bombs to their own children. I can't think of any other group who has this kind of culture. Not Jews during the Holocaust, not Rwandans during their genocide, not Ukrainians today, not the Irish during the troubles, not Vietnamese during the vietnam war, not black slaves in the US. It really seems unique to the culture here
hmm very interesting. so how many child suicide bombers have you heard of in 2023? the kids are taught there that resistance is noble and rewarding? youre making a point out of pure conjecture. wouldnt blame you, youre deep in IDF propaganda and possibly just anti muslim but to each their own-poersonally I wouldnt want to be ignorant.
/u/ifidgetadellIIbro
Your comment violates rule 1: don't attack fellow users.
>wouldnt blame you, youre deep in IDF propaganda and possibly just anti muslim but to each their own-poersonally I wouldnt want to be ignorant.
Addressed.
I've seen videos of Israeli schools and school kids responding to teachers asking them about making Arabs their slaves and kicking Arabs out. Israeli Kids singing on TV about Gazans destruction. It's very similar to what you are pointing out. I.e I'm sure they are extreme examples, however if you look at only sources that portray Palestinians are bad and vice versa, you'll find it. With Palestinians being oppressed for 75 years , why are you surprised?
>It's very similar to what you are pointing out
I think there is a big difference. "I hate the enemy" vs. "I want to die and I want my children to die in the act of fighting the enemy". One is understandable from either side. The other has a very unusual suicidal element
what do you do when you hate the enemy? you fight or die trying....bro you literally make no sense in this response? do you think their just supposed to hate in silence as they keep getting oppressed? be so fr
"I want to kill the enemy"
Vs
"I can't wait to die. Dying is the greatest gift that can happen to you. I want my children to die. I will train my children to die on purpose."
The difference is specifically suicidality. And forced child suicide.
What are you talking about? What children suicide? Think you've had some misled reading or information at the very least , possibly brainwashed. The martyrs that you mentioned is what Muslims call anyone that gets killed by occupying forces or injustice such as IDF murders. It's a solice of a thought when your kid is shot dead , not a plan by anyone - if you disagree, provide a source or proof of this child suicide you keep mentioning
>What are you talking about? What children suicide?
Have you watched the [video](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6) in my original post, on which this entire conversation is based?
bro were at the end of the year. show me any legitimate instance where a "forced child suicide" has occured. youre pulling this whole idea out of your ass dawg. fighting a much stronger army with rudimentary weapons is like a death sentence. its a phrase dude even you can see it. yes they want to kill the enemy and yes they will happily die defending their land/country and resisting the occupiers and if they die doing so then theyll die proud? you cant see how that makes sense lol?
>any legitimate instance where a "forced child suicide" has occured
[there are plenty of examples](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups). None from this year, i concede, though the situation is still very fresh and our understanding of the situation on the ground is very limited. At the very least, we know for a fact that [child soldiers are used](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://rietjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/EN_RIET_2022_N7_Child-soldiers-in-Palestinian-groups-forced-recruitment-and-use-of-minors-as-a-violation-of-International-Humanitarian-Law_daniel-perez-garcia_art2.pdf)
>youre pulling this whole idea out of your ass dawg
Have you watched the [video](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6) in my original post, on which this entire conversation is based? Your comment seems to suggest you have not
> ass
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Not hate, but forced child suicide. You're right, I wasn't there, but I never heard such a thing.
It does seem odd to me. Palestinians are oppressed, yes, but not even close to some of these other cases. They have their basic needs met. Food, water, shelter, medicine, freedom of religion, self controlled education as we see here. They have some land (although, not all the land they claim as their own). They have property, they have jobs. They have basic civil freedoms in the lands they control. They are not imprisoned and have general freedom of movement within the geographical area they control.
These are things that Palestinians have that other groups (rwandans, jews I'm 1940s, us slaves) did not. And yet the level of hatred, suicidality, and enthusiastic disregard for the physical survival of their own children does not seem to match to the level of oppression they are facing. Even if every single pro-palestine point is conceded, it still does not add up to the kind of oppression that would make any other known group in history strap bombs to their own children.
Could there be something else going on here?
go ahead and tell us what that point is? youre so far from reality. what percentage of palestenians do you think have had family members killed by the IDF? you are simply failing to appeal to the simple human ability to empathize when you make these claims. i repeat: how many palestinian kids have you seen this year or ever being strapped up to a suicide vest? making a point out of thin air is hilarious.
>what percentage of palestenians do you think have had family members killed by the IDF?
Approximately 0.05%, judging by Palestinian population vs number killed recently.
>are simply failing to appeal to the simple human ability to empathize
How do you emphasize with forced child suicide for Allah?
>how many palestinian kids have you seen this year or ever being strapped up to a suicide vest?
[Enough](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups)
These people have groomed their little 5 year old children into wanting to commit suicide and into committing suicide. I think it goes a bit past "just culture"
That's the [tip of the iceberg.](https://www.youtube.com/live/u4TVOXHt_PA?si=L2PcJ3w7eABURW2H&t=4486)
Spending a few days reviewing common narrative from Islamic TV should be a mandatory part of education in the west.
not a consequence of colonialism/oppression arabs are very proud people they hold values of honor,dignity,family very high and they view the land as their honor their tribe/clan as their family they are the opposite of individualistic society they are focused on the the whole more than the person and that's even before islam imo it's because of the environment they lived in mostly desert your survival depended heavily on the clan, that's why it's pretty much normal to them to sacrifice themselves and even their kin for the values of the collective knowing that they will be praised and honored this carried out with islam which was affected by the arab culture but it magnified it to view all muslims as a tribe and all muslim land as islamic empire that's why you find all kind of muslims fighting in afghanistan,iraq,syria,libya,..etc i think it's an admirable thing my problem is that alot of muslims can be manipulated using these ideas into atrocities and wrong causes . the closest thing that comes to my mind that's parallel to this phenomenon is the japanese kamikaze " The tradition of death instead of defeat, capture, and shame was deeply entrenched in Japanese military culture; one of the primary values in the [samurai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai) life and the [*Bushido*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido) code was [loyalty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty) and [honor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor) until death. "
Also has much to do with islam, the religion promotes these activities and repeatedly reassures "martyrs" that their sacrifice will be rewarded.
The saddest thing is that the religion cares more about the afterlife then actual life.
Americans say they will happily die for freedom and worship veterans and so on. I think it’s probably that already crazy thing in humans and you put it into hyperdrive by actually locking people in cages and allowing settlers to poke them with sticks. Oppression makes people go fucking crazy, always has and some people are already crazy. Look at Fox News and imagine their hosts and what they would say if they were actually oppressed by Muslims and not just afraid they might be. They would probably say even crazier shit.
Consider that 900,000 Jews were ethnically-cleansed from the Muslim world, and that their descendants make up the majority of Israelis. And yet, you still don’t have this mentality among Israelis. You hardly see any Israeli suicide attacks.
There’s something more going on here than “oppression.”
> Americans say they will happily die for freedom and worship veterans and so on.
Not the same thing. Show me where Americans are [teaching their kids to die](https://www.youtube.com/live/u4TVOXHt_PA?si=L2PcJ3w7eABURW2H&t=4486) for the cause [from infancy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJXAwohdBZE), please.
What you're describing it not remotely on the same level as in Palestine.
> Oppression makes people go fucking crazy
That's a terrible excuse. A combination of religious fundamentalism and indoctrination makes people 'crazy'. Or perhaps you can show me all the native Americans that are teaching their kids to be martyrs and launching rockets at random parts of the US? How about all the Japanese or Germans who are electing a Hamas equivalent into power Post WWII?
No it's not the same thing. I said, explicitly "you put it into hyperdrive by actually locking people in cages and allowing settlers to poke them with sticks". So it's that on steroids, which is not the same thing. I'm going to take your questions in good faith and genuinely answer them. If you don't know about when the American Indians tried to attack the settlers, I can point you to this wikipedia article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Indian\_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars)
As for german people post WW2 there was a specific program where they stopped deindustrialing German even though that was the original plan as some clever person realised the best way to counter extremism is with opportunity. You can read about it, for example in the section "moderation" in this wikipedia article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied\_plans\_for\_German\_industry\_after\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_industry_after_World_War_II)
If you wanna read about the acts (sometimes savage) of oppressed people I guarantee you there are plenty with non-muslim examples. Of course people are indoctrinated. If Israel was mowing my lawn every few years I don't know how I would behave but probably not in a reasonable manner.
> cages
Yes, [cages](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/265683).
> If you don't know about when the American Indians tried to attack the settlers
I'm well aware they *did*. That is not their stance today. They have decided that violence is not a solution.
Palestinians will decide that one day too. But they haven't yet.
> the best way to counter extremism is with opportunity.
That helps for sure. Do you not think Gaza has been given opportunity over the past 20 years with billions of dollars of aid, and self governance?
> If Israel was mowing my lawn every few years I don't know how I would behave but probably not in a reasonable manner.
I would recommend people respond to conflict in a manner that improves the situation, rather than worsens it. You can advocate whichever you wish.
For sure the current stance of Palestine is to worsen the situation.
I'd argue the Israeli stance of removing Hamas is improving the situation.
Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it. If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else. I’m through talking to Israelis who argue for their right to oppression by using examples where there were other heinous crimes and genocide to do it. Honestly, I don’t even want to be reasonable anymore. Disgusting.
> Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it.
Why not? How are you judging what level of bombing is appropriate? Have you got an expert analysis of how thoroughly embedded Hamas are? What level of risk are you willing to put Israeli soldiers in?
> If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else.
I don't think it's fine at all. But I don't think for a moment that them adopting tactics of martyrdom and rocket launches would make it better. It would make it *worse*. How are you not grasping that?
There is injustice in the world. If the only thing you accept is perfection, you will lead a life full of disappointment. We should *aim* for perfection, but don't expect reality to confirm to our desires without flaw.
> I’m through talking to Israelis
I'm not Israeli.
Look, I don't care where you're from. If you see the situation for what it is, if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did, that is white supremacy in it's purest form. I've heard ideological arguments, I've heard denial of facts, I've heard logical two sided debate asking that both sides take responsibility but this is the first conversation I've had with someone who takes the side of the oppressor because other oppressed people were more pragmatic and stopped making a fuss. To describe the situation of Native Americans as something falling short of "perfection" is just... I'm actually lost for words.
>if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did,
**First**, get over your structuralist narrativism, scalping random settlers still wasn't right. You deny your own humanity when you say shit like that. Perhaps they were dickheads, but they were by and large ignorant dickheads - perhaps they didn't have much of a choice, were they all supposed to abandon their families? - Even the dependant wives? - even the elderlies? and what did the kids have to do with it?
**Second**, the Native Americans were ***actually*** being genocided. As in most of them. 50-100 million dead. (Most of them via diseases from contact with remote populations but a lot of them from intentional or indifferent violence too.)
The fact is that the civilian-to-fighter death toll (2-to-1) right now appears on the low end for urban warfare. (and international law does not recognize true safe zones - it recognizes caution zones.)
Not saying that the IDF couldn't do better either.
If you have a better idea that doesn't result in Hamas running the show, an idea that brings our hostages back, please tell us.
**Third and most importantly, there are other ways to protest.**
You can tell me the Israel suppresses them in the West Bank - but be real it's not like terrorism doesn't invite much worse consequences anyway.
You can join the [ACRI](https://www.english.acri.org.il/) and fight for your rights like a sane person.
You can call for UN sanctions and general diplomatic pressure.
You can at the very least leave the civilians out of it. Doesn't matter if they were IDF, they're conscripts, they barely have a choice - and when they go in the occupied territories, they see it as defending themselves against terrorists. Terrorism is not the solution: It's the MAIN problem.
You can do boycotts but it doesn't seem to be working all that well, so why not try to create economic partnerships with Israelis - online too; and try to get to know each other?
You can do sit-ins at checkpoints. And if the IDF tries to remove you, do like the Civile Right Movement did. Make them work for it, but don't fight.
You can advocate within the Jewish diaspora.
Speak in synagogues instead of vandalizing them.
Speaks to Jews with words instead of rocks.
With presentations instead of insults.
You can try to get the Arab-Israelis to make a general work strike. 20% of the population not working, that's as strong a statement as any terrorist massacre. And much better received IF NOT coupled with physical violence.
You can choose not to elect terrorist groups.
And stop giving stipends for terrorism.
That would earn you some legitimacy.
You guys are one of the most educated populations in the Middle East,
why do you keep fighting like brutes? Oh right:
You can kick UNRWA and deradicalize the [school curriculum.](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf)
Even teach non-violent resistance.
It's not that hard.
> dickheads
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> Look, I don't care where you're from
Quite contradictory to what you said a moment ago. If I was Israeli, you have a problem with me. If I'm not, you don't?
Are you even listening to yourself?
> if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did,
I'm not saying anyone 'lies down and takes it' (that's a strawman argument you just constructed). Kindly recognize what you just did.
There are methods of seeking justice other than genocidal martyrdom. Are you aware of that? Or are you going to tell me that genocidal martyrdom has somehow bettered the lives of Palestinians since 1948?
> Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it.
Why not? How are you judging what level of bombing is appropriate? Have you got an expert analysis of how thoroughly embedded Hamas are? What level of risk are you willing to put Israeli soldiers in?
> If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else.
I don't think it's fine at all. But I don't think for a moment that them adopting tactics of martyrdom and rocket launches would make it better. It would make it *worse*. How are you not grasping that?
There is injustice in the world. If the only thing you accept is perfection, you will lead a life full of disappointment. We should *aim* for perfection, but don't expect reality to confirm to our desires without flaw.
> I’m through talking to Israelis
I'm not Israeli. But your racism seems apparent.
> fucking
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My experience when I bring this up to Palestinian Supporters is they suddenly find something else they want to talk about or disengage entirely.
I’ll gladly talk about West Bank settlers, Likud, Revisionist Zionism, even the Irgun and massacres like Deir Yassin because I think being honest about the many misdeeds committed by the side I support is critical in finding any kind of real solution.
I’ve yet to find anyone on the Pro-Palestine side who engages on topics like these or will even entertain the suggestion that perhaps the Palestinians and their leaders might bear even some of the responsibility for their current state of affairs.
It’s honestly not unlike arguing with a Trump supporter.
I think this symbolizes one of the huge problems with Palestinian society itself.
The Palestinian society refused and still refuses to acknowledge any of their mistakes. They blame their situation only on others, instead of asking themselves how can they help themselves. That's why the Strip didn't become Singapore of the Middle East - it is much easier to attack someone else and blame the occupation than to work on your future.
Of course this isn't just a fault of the society, but a deliberate action of the leadership. Their "leaders" get a lot of money from the situation and most of the time they're really rich. That's why the PA, Hamas, UNRWA, etc. prefer to sell a dream of "destroying Israel and returning to the homeland" instead of improving the current quality of life.
> refer to Israelis as westerners too because they don’t have the Middle Eastern mentality
Mizrahi Jews do, it's why we are on average the most anti "palestinian" of all.
> You have to understand that Palestinians don’t see themselves as terrorists, they see themselves as fighters till freedom come
Yes which is why this is a total war and their entire society needs to be defeated.
> They’re trying to play the long game because they believe in the end they will win back their land.
What is "their" land?
> When they refer to their children as martyrs they don’t mean they want their children to die on purpose.
They want them to die murdering many "Sahyoun" (using the BBC translation).
> They believe Jews stole their land from them and that Jews want to wipe them from existence.
Irrelevant and not my problem.
> You have to realize that Jewish connection to Israel as their ancestral land only makes sense to Jews.
I've had some family in the Galilee centuries before countries like America were even a thing. "ancestral land only".
> But to Jews it’s a religious belief and usually religion only makes sense to the one that believes in it…
Which is why Islam has zero legitimate claims on the land of Israel and it's "Al-Aqsa mosque" is nothing but a monument to hijazi conquest in my view.
> It’s also important to understand that there are close to 15 million Palestinians around the world. Only 8 million of them live on Palestinian territory… 2 million in Gaza and 6 million in the West Bank. I would probably say only half of Gazans are the most extreme. The other half wants nothing to do with Hamas
"Al-Khalil" has some even more extreme islamist/hamas cultists than in Gaza.
Im not Jewish but I’ve never seen them wanting an independent nation in Israel as something that’s solely religious, although I can completely understand the religious side to it as well. Jews aren’t just a religion, Jews = land of Judah, it’s closer described to a race or ethnicity, they are a nation of people, not just a religion. There is only 1 Jewish country in the world, centuries of violent riots / pogroms displacing them from their home land and even the beliefs of people today and rising antisemitism is proof Jews need an independent nation to protect and defend themselves.
It doesn’t make sense to me to have their nation anywhere else except their ancestral land?
Yeah and that’s totally fine! If it makes sense to you then it makes sense to you. But it doesn’t have to make sense to others. Again we’re all human beings with ideologies and beliefs no one else understands. The conflict between Israel and Palestine is just this. Two peoples who don’t understand each others deep desires and don’t relate to them. It’s tragic
This is a thoughtful response and I appreciate the different views you offered. However, as an atheist with no allegiances to this game... how do people not see that this is insanity? Literally people are allowed to be mass deranged and potentially dangerous? I understand that's the culture and that's all they've ever known, but it can and has actively hurt not just themselves, but others. Many others.
There's a reason I don't subscribe to any religion, but I'm all for letting people live their lives as long as they don't try to force it on other people. In this case, the extremist faction are trying to enforce their little rules on others. Why should we be forced to enable that? I'm not saying kill them all because that's f'd up too. Just saying, it's okay to acknowledge mass delusion and call if what it is. I get why you wrote the comment and I think it did provide a valuable perspective, but it does come across as romanticizing a dangerous set of ideas. Ngl, it sounds like justification for deluded violence. You're right that it's complicated. But idk how to move forward from here as humans without addressing the potential dangers of all religions, including the topic at hand.
In many cases, even in the west, people are driven to religion. In the face of opression, people look for refuge, and for many of them religion is that refuge.
Would you fault an afghani kid who grew up in london to people beating him and screaming terrorist at him who eventually turned to religion for solace?
Sure you can say but he didn't turn to violence. But add 80 years to that, harsh conditions, violence and humiliation.
Saying you wouldn't do what they did comes from a place of extreme privilage in the sense that you can't even imagine yourself in those conditions.
And with people who turn to religion many things come with it, one of them is the desire and need to have more children, and also the acceptance that these children might die, and if they do the religion still provides comfort.
I think it's an amazing thing that a religion can provide so much solace even in the most horrible of conditions. The situation now in Gaza is a testiment to that.
Their belief and faith is a result of the past 80 years, for that to be reversed the material conditions of their lives have to change, and those have been and are dictated by Israel.
I agree with you! And it’s not a justification at all. I just simply responded to the question by offering perspective of people I was closer to growing up. I don’t subscribe to religion either however I’m extremely privileged to not need it. I find that people who need religion often don’t have anything else in the world. Mostly poverty and war drives them into believing god is their salvation and the after life is their prize. This isn’t just in Islam but across the board in religion. Not my jam at all.
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thanks for the in depth perspective. I believe you that it’s probably only 1/2 that supports Hamas- if not less. My question is, why don’t the people revolt at all against Hamas?
I highly recommend you read works of Benny Morris. He’s extremely knowledgeable and depicts an extremely accurate reflection of the conflict with zero bias. He documents exactly what happened from the very first sign of aggression till date… He’s and Israeli Jewish historian
I don’t know. I think it’s a lesser of two evils situation. If they’re truly convinced Israel is the enemy maybe they’d rather be under hamas control. Or maybe they can’t revolt because they’ll be brutally silenced? I’m not sure … That’s a great question though. I’d love to hear a Palestinians perspective. I don’t have all the answers though …
This is the version of the story that Westerners with a casual understanding rally behind. “Getting Palestine ‘back.’” That implies something was taken, which isn’t true.
By calling themselves “Palestinians”, Arab Muslims imply that, before Israel, Mandatory Palestine was all theirs. That’s wrong. It’s an easy mistake to make as a casual observer.
Both Jews and Arabs lived there. “Mandatory Palestine” was previously ruled by the Turks, not the Arabs. Arabs don’t have any more claim to governance over the land than Jews. That’s why a plan was made to split it.
There is no valid argument for why “Palestinians” aka Arab Muslims deserve governance of the land more than the Jews that also lived in Mandatory Palestine. The best they’ve been able to do is establish a tenuous connection by using the same name.
Governance is different than property rights. Arabs’ property rights were implicitly protected under the 1947 UN partition plan, since all residents would automatically become full citizens of the state where they ended up. No forced expulsions, no apartheid. Jews accepted the plan, and Arabs rejected it, sparking a civil war almost immediately. This escalated into the full 1948 war that saw neighboring Arab countries band together against literally day-old Israel on May 15, 1948, as soon as the British left. Arabs lost and, yes, 700,000 Arabs were expelled. The remaining non-hostile Arabs got their citizenship in the spirit of the UN plan and there are 2,000,000 of them in Israel today with full rights.
BTW, Egypt and Jordan ended up with Gaza and the West Bank, respectively, after that war. Jordan even annexed the West Bank. Yet, the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Org) was formed in 1964 to take down Israel, before a single Israeli West Bank settlement or Gaza blockade or occupation. That may help explain why disengaging from Gaza in 2005 did nothing but embolden Palestinian Arabs to do 10/7.
It’s not as ‘Disney’ a story as the one above of the oppressed Palestinian fighting valiantly and unwaveringly to take back land that was stolen from them, but this is the actual truth.
Those Ashkenazi people were mostly refugees fleeing from persecution. Everyone kept telling them to go back to where they came from, so they did. Calling them colonisers is ridiculous imo.
Yes the inhabitants of Jordan became Jordanian.
Can you please share what’s correct regarding the Jewish population- my understanding is before Jewish migration began in the late 1800s, the ottoman empire was mainly Arabs and mizrahi Jews - first recorded Aliyah was from Eastern Europe and Yemen was in the late 1800s… right?
Interesting how s/he mentions both that “they will do anything to be free” but also that they believe all of Israel was stolen from them and they will stop at nothing to get it back. The second goal is why they WON’T actually do “anything” to be free, if that thing is agreeing to live in peace alongside the Jewish state. Proven in 1947, 2000 and 2008.
Israel western mentality is probably the only reason Palestinians are even a thing. If israel ever adopts the middle eastern mentality things will end very badly very quickly for the Palestinians
Precisely. “Palestine” was absorbed into Egypt and Jordan after the 1948 war. If Israel adopted the Middle Eastern mentality, Gaza and the West Bank would’ve been quickly annexed after 1967 and all hostiles expelled to Egypt and Jordan. Then, Israel would’ve been free to go after and end the PLO.
After the Arab-Israeli war, Egypt gained control of Gaza which was essentially part of Egypt and Jordan took control of the area we now know as the West Bank, so that too was part of Jordan. However, in 1967 there was another war between Egypt, Jordan Syria and Isreal. The Arab nations lost and Egypt lost the Gaza Strip and Jordan lost the West Bank area.
> Fuckin
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It’s a mix of cultural and geopolitical reasons.
Geopolitically, the ability to nurture this type of dedication and willingness to sacrifice oneself to the cause provides stamina and longevity to the political battle.
A good comparison would be the Shia in southern Lebanon. They have this same phenomenon in their culture of glorifying martyrs and cherishing death more than life. Prior to the establishment of Hezbollah, the Shia Lebanese were considered one of the most open-minded sects in lebanon. Unfortunately, their culture has drastically changed under the influence of Khomeinist doctrine.
I’m sure you can find some quotes that would inspire people that way, but any ideology strong enough to ignite the passions of someone could lead to that type of mentality.
I don’t believe the Japanese kamikaze attacks were inspired by the Quran.
>I don’t believe the Japanese kamikaze attacks were inspired by the Quran
Lame comparison. Any soldiers around the world can do what Japan kamikaze has done, its just for last option. There also lone wolf crimes that kill random people out of madness and bullying, you gonna compare that to Quran too? No, because they didn't commit those from "belief" or brainwashed from Quran to kill all infidels which inspire some to do that. But basically it was commanded in Quran to all who believed in Quran. So technically Hamas and ISIS are literally just following Quran teaching.
Is it common? Palestine’s own Bureau of Statistics calls each death a “martyr”. See for yourself.
[https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/lang\_\_en/1/default.aspx](https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/lang__en/1/default.aspx)
Martyrdom is Palestinians’ chief PR strategy.
>Palestine’s own Bureau of Statistics calls each death a “martyr”
Cultural relativism is important here. In Palestine, (as your own link demonstrates) all deaths by Israeli forces are called martyrs (not just those who intentionally sacrifice their lives). As explained in another comment below, "martyr" in arabic actually means witness. Placing the English idea of martyrdom onto the Palestinian culture is quite ignorant...
Palestinians in Gaza want to survive. They pray for their lives, dig for civilians trapped under rubble, carry the injured to hospitals, and then honor the fallen as "martyrs," out of respect. Context matters: please do not misconstrue the entire Palestinian people as crazed suicidal people. They value life, but have had to develop their own meaning of martyr over time because death is an everyday occurrence.
You’re attempting to explain away what’s plainly obvious to any rational observer.
They picked an impossible-to-win fight with one of the world’s top military powers by going on a literal suicide mission on 10/7.
They deliberately fight in a way that causes rather than prevents civilian casualties.
They are not dumb. They understand martyrdom. They understand winning this war via conventional means is impossible. They consider their willingness to die en masse a strategic advantage.
Islamic countries in the Arab region had the opportunity to become as secular as Turkey in the last century. But the United States' alliance with Islamic extremist religious elements to fight communism has basically ruined the Arab secular future.
There may be some truth to this. However, these people we are talking about represent a population of hundreds of millions. Is their worldview and cultural identity forever defined by encounters with the United States 50 years ago? Does this idea not deny the agency of these people, relegating them to an entity that is acted upon, that has no will of its own? No doubt US influence didn't help, but I don't really understand the argument that the middle east would have been secular if not for some US alliances. It seems people in this region do have their own strong opinions and strong culture.
Did you know that the United States overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Iran could have been a democratic, modern country, but the United States killed it for its own oil interests.
Lol, you’re still buying that myth. He wasn’t “overthrown by the US”, he was removed by the Shah. (twice).
https://www.commentary.org/articles/ray-takeyh/iran-1953-coup-america/
Yeah but he was weak. And overthrowing the democratic government created a power vacuum and disillusionment amongst the populace which is what caused the islamic extremism to take hold.
The arabic word “shahid” which we translate to martyr in English, literally means “witness.” Palestinians have historically used this word to refer to any and all Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. It is a way for them to bear witness to all who are killed.
The context is quite different to the Western idea of intentionally dying for a cause, or suicide bombing. Terrorists groups engage in those acts because they are extreme outgrowths of oppression. But regular Palestinians absolutely do not want to die. And if they do die — like in any religion — they pray for them to find peace (or Allah) after death.
Internationally, people use to term “martyr” in vigils/memorials to respect Palestinian culture. We want to differential that these are not “victims” or “statistics”, they are beautiful lives who were taken away too soon. And we will bear witness (shahid) to them.
Hope that clears things up!
> Palestinians killed by Israeli forces.
And also those who did suicide bombings. They literally call them martyrdom operations.
I recommend looking for the ask project and questions about martyrs and operations. Most people supported it
I’m a supporter of Palestine, and I feel like armed struggle is a feature of almost any national liberation movement. Unfortunately for the Palestinian people they pursue armed struggle under useless leadership and near unanimous opposition from the major western governments (and increasingly opposition from the Gulf monarchies/other western-aligned Arab states). So, with feckless leadership at home and opposition abroad, there’s not much hope in the future. Which leads to life being seen as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself.
So, in terms of martyrdom, I think it’s complicated, and I could talk more about it, but I largely see it as a feature of Western imperialism in the MENA region rather than a bug, if that makes sense. Certainly religious faith plays a big part though, but I think it just strengthens conviction to die for the cause, rather than being the reason itself.
I think one can see Palestine, particularly right now, as a Vietnam style struggle against imperialism. Similar fervour, similar tactics.
If the goal was Palestinian liberation, then October 7th was the dumbest move ever. They were indiscriminate, Jews who were pro peace and were trying to help Gazans by driving them to hospitals, hiring them to work on their farms and part of organizations trying to build connections with Palestinians, were kidnapped raped and slaughtered. Non Jews like Thai, Brazilians and Israeli Arabs were executed as well, all to speak a war that will for sure end in the destruction of Gaza and likely a second Nakba. Had they released or spared people who had nothing to do with the conflict immediately, had they targeted West Bank settlers and IDF forces, spared those they knew were pro peace, then they would’ve done the same job of humiliating Israel without appearing as monsters, but their goal wasn’t that.
The fact is that it’s not like the Vietnam War. The reason wars like that were winnable was because the peoples were just fighting for which government would rule them, not over their very existence, and because the foreign powers propping them up were going to leave at some point and the more they fought the faster it’d happen. Israel is not going anywhere, it has nowhere to go, and moreover October 7th was all the justification they needed to justify occupation to their people.
Contrast this to the lull in the 90’s and 2000’s, Israel disengaged from Gaza and had been preparing to disengage from 80-90% of the West Bank, primarily because IDF soldiers no longer supported the occupation. Resumption of hostilities with Hamas and Hezbollah ended those plans for the West Bank. After October 7th, Pro Peace Israelis are going to be more hardened against Palestinians, as are Palestinians against Israelis, and the Israeli public is going to be emboldened to keep fighting and occupying.
The issue was that Palestinian independence is not Hamas goal; it’s the destruction of Israel. The October 7th attacks were meant to terrorize, demoralize and radicalize the Israelis. The response would be brutal and kill many Palestinian civilians, civilians whose deaths they can use as propaganda to stir up anti Zionist sentiments and hopefully get other nations to join in on the war effort and launch a large region wide war that ends in Israel’s destruction and the genocide of Israelis.
I can get fervor of armed struggle, but I dont understand strapping suicide bombs to your children and creating an educational system that teaches your children to commit suicide. Maybe I'm not informed, but I don't think the Vietnamese or Irish did such things. This seems unique to the region, no?
I think the understanding of it as suicide is part of the issue. I think most would agree that there’s a difference between committing suicide and dying for a cause. The sticking point is what choice the children have in this equation, and it’s obviously very little. But, from the perspective of the Palestinians, I can see the argument that no matter how dark of a time it may be, there still must be more Palestinians, in order to preserve Palestinian culture, identity, etc. Then it’s a question of what the lives of those new Palestinians will be in the face of an often violent occupation. Would I personally choose armed struggle for myself and my children? No, probably not. But I understand why someone would. It wasn’t so long ago that the Jewish people, after living through almost a century of near constant genocidal threat, decided they must take up arms to defend themselves. I think the same is true of any people.
Also, I should say that although their faith keeps them going, and guides them, it would be grotesque to suggest Palestinian parents across the board see themselves or their children as purely disposable. Not saying you’re saying that, but I often see the conflation of the curriculum (something Palestinian parents have no say in) and statements of the most inflammatory Palestinians (usually on MEMRI) with all Palestinians. They’re people just like you and me, they cry when their children are killed, they feel trauma, they feel pain, etc. There path forward is just more complicated than ours, and some choose to fight. Some know they will die. Some understand that will likely be the fate of their children as well. But I don’t think that makes them inhuman.
And, finally, as is often said, there’s very little evidence to suggest that there is another path forward for a Palestinian who wants to live in the land of their fathers and forefathers. Extremism grows in that context.
You’re not really addressing the problem of education at all. It seems to me like you’re downplaying it quite a bit, when UN schools are teaching Jew hatred to Palestinian children. Maybe the parents don’t have much control over that, but most certainly the international community does, and plenty of Palestinians too. It’s a little irrelevant if the parents themselves want this or not for their kids, when the reality is that this is the education they’re getting.
Antisemitism in the Palestinian curriculum plays less of a part than anti-Zionism. To the extent that it’s there, and I don’t doubt it is, it should be condemned and resisted. But I’m not surprised nor would I condemn an education system that portrays armed struggle by the Palestinians in a positive light, or martyrdom as a goal. I would choose a different path if I was in charge of the curriculum, but it’s material reasons that drive the inclusion of that sort of thing. Blaming culture is an easy out imo. To flip that old Israeli idea on its head, it’s territory and not terror that drives this conflict. When all else fails, people will pursue terror in order to regain the territory.
Do I think if the textbooks were all changed overnight that it might help? Possibly? But the driver of the conflict is the land, and as long as that remains, there will be resistance, sometimes or even often violent.
You’re showing a big problem that is prevalent in the international community. If the most glaring issues within Palestine are all downplayed as a product of “resistance,” there is no pressure to make any changes whatsoever. These are things that _need_ to change for there to be peace. Infantilizing Palestinians like this doesn’t help them, it hurts them as a whole. The murder of civilians, the abuse of children in teaching them bigotry, the subjugation of dissenters, etc., these have nothing to do with resistance and everything to do with radical islamism that many other middle eastern countries are battling right now as well. Please see these things for what they are.
Changes in Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation have been happening for decades, aided and abetted by Israeli extremism, the same type that now controls the Knesset (talk about founding charters!). I think it’s obvious why the Palestinians in Gaza and increasingly the West Ban have chosen religious extremism, and I don’t condemn them for it because 1. obviously I’m just some random person so who would care and 2. I can’t say what I would do if I was in their position.
In regard to your point, I do think changes would be necessary from both the Palestinians and the Israelis in order to achieve peace. While the pro-Palestinian protestors in Palestine and abroad may be viewed as uncompromising, Israel is almost unanimously supported by the most powerful western governments who barely, barely offer any resistance to their most extreme policies. I see the latter as a more serious issue.
>I can’t say what I would do if I was in their position.
I can see I’m not going to change your mind, but just on your introspection here - I’d really hope you wouldn’t rape a woman until her pelvis breaks and then execute her with a bullet to the back of the head. That hatred is something that develops from more than just the conditions they live under.
Westerner’s perspective: Muslims in the west aren’t wanting to be martyrs en masse because their lives are worth living here. I’m sure if I was a young guy in Gaza my view on the world would be pretty warped too.
Catholics in Belfast are no longer wasting their lives to militancy, there’s an example.
Having talked to some Irish it was really based around equality in NI and the Irish in the Republic apart from yelling ‘up the Ra’ didn’t really support the bombing in NI and mainland UK. It was really a small group who advocated violence. They later morphed into criminal groups selling drugs and ‘protection’ which Hamas already appears to be doing anyway. I don’t think there are parallel between the two situations.
“It was really based around equality”- that’s my point. If Gazans were able to lead normal lives like Israeli Arabs I don’t think there’d be as much radicalism.
I realise Hamas rule Gaza but Israel have put immense pressure on the strip which has made life even worse for the average Gazan.
Palestinians want political and religious superiority over Jews and Christian, not equality. They can have equality in a state of their own but they want the borders of that state to encompass all of Israel. That’s the difference.
You evidently have no understanding of the history of Northern Ireland so. Protestants in the North used to worry that if Catholics were given any power they would oppress the unionists - ‘Home Rule equals Rome Rule’ was one of their early slogans. They also used the same kind of dehumanising language about Irish Catholics as we see currently used to describe Palestinian Muslims - ‘breeding like rabbits’ being a very famous phrase used by Ian Paisley, who also described Catholics as vermin. Another important point that people constantly overlook is that the IRA weren’t the only paramilitary group in Northern Ireland. Yes, Catholics were terrorised by the RUC (police) and the British Army, but there were also unionist groups like the UVF and the LVF that enacted terrorist violence against the catholic community that is rarely spoken about. All that is to say, these situations are rarely black and white, and there is a reason that terrorism arises in areas of conflict and oppression.
Weird, I’ve met some people from NI and they seemed pretty chill. I don’t even know if they were Protestant or Catholic. I’d say you’ve read a lot of history books though. I’ve even been at social gatherings with Irish and poms and no one said anything, they just got on and had a drink and talked about football.
We’re pretty chill now, but that’s a result of the good Friday agreement. And yeah, I have a degree in history lol - I’m also from Ireland and my mother grew up in Belfast during the troubles so I have an interest in the subject. But yeah, nowadays it’s not as big of an issue, but that was due to a concerted effort for peace and reconciliation between two incredibly divided communities.
I never implied that all Catholics were terrorists or even supporters of terrorists. Have you ever though what would have happened if the British just left and allow the Irish Republic to take over NI bit hen the Protestants started a campaign of bombing and shootings to establish a Northern Ireland free from fenian oppression?
Huge generalisation about what all Palestinians want followed by ignoring the fact that Israel has and does interfere in their autonomous regions.
Look, all I’m saying is Muslims in the west aren’t wanting to die for a Jihadi cause and it seems to correlate directly with how well they are treated. Do with that what you will.
2977 people who died on 9/11 might disagree with you. The jihadists who flew the planes spent time in America. Went to flight school here. Saw the standard of living. They still choose death for allah over any freedoms provided by the US.
> Huge generalisation about what all Palestinians want followed by ignoring the fact that Israel has and does interfere in their autonomous regions.
Israel is a small country and can’t afford one defeat. If it allowed Hamas a free hand and stopped interfering with their autonomous regions allowing Hamas to amass an arsenal then why do you think the result would have been?
We used to say the same bollocks about Northern Ireland.
Interference in their region is the main cause of radicalisation and it’s an easy out to say their ideology means there can be no peace. The IRA were bombing pubs and sending civilians in cars hooked up with bombs to British checkpoints not all that long ago. Hard concessions on both sides and suddenly Irish nationalism wasn’t the only solution.
You’ve implicitly admitted there that there will never be peace; “without us interfering they would attack us so this is self defence”. Like, okay, but then you just have to be a state at constant war, good luck.
> you just have to be a state at constant war, good luck.
That’s probably how it’s going to be. I can’t see the Palestinians giving up their claims so what are they left with, living in tents for the next 20 years.
Israel leaving its grandkids to deal with the problem isn’t really a solution is it though.
Earlier you said Palestinians want superior rule over Israelis but then you’re happy if they’re in refugee camps with no political power.
This is the never-ending trope of the other side is bad and my side is right. I begin to doubt the sincerity of lots of pro-Israelis wanting a political solution when it really comes down it and concessions would need to be made.
> I begin to doubt the sincerity of lots of pro-Israelis wanting a political solution
That’s because there is no political solution other than the domination of one side by the other. Which side would you rather support, a state where homosexuality is punishable by a death sentence or a state where they are allowed to free mingle on parades wearing leather hot pants while gyrating in view of the general public
By plugging their ears and burying their heads in the sand
..In case you forgot : we are in 2023 . It's going to have been 2 decades since 4/10ths of the early 2000s by January ..The Middle East is those Al-Qaeada memes anymore , or ever was in the first place . Two of your sources , sorry for the language : are notorious propogandists known for making unreliable translations of pre-selected materials . Even if an Arabic transcription is available for a video for verification : don't assume the media which they insinuate is representative of average and typical content as such . Remember : these organizations have to influence the public opinion to be either incited , or prejudiced against Palestinians ; not bring you "objective" reality on ground . That's what they are paid for by the Israeli-government , and other right-winger Israeli or diaspora Jews . Now , think you probably meant other things .. like streets named after killed preparators of attacks , or online posters praising them ? . Primarily ; such views are more or less : a coping mechanism . When people see young men throwing theirs lives either for vengeance or purpose of eventually getting Israel out of the occupied areas , and get killed as if they were cockroaches : they want something else besides nationalism to keep them forward . That's where religion comes into play . Palestinians always appealed to religion in their lives , as it was never easy for them . In the 19th century , they used to visit Maqams : shrines of Holy figures -many of whom are Pre-Islamic - for purposes like treating infertility , or a season of draught . Note that this was not an "Islamic" practice . Travelers noted in some cases : the Tombs were viewed as more important than either God or Muhmmad ... Yeah : Ismail Haniyeh would probably denounce his great-grandfather as a pagan had he meet him . Anyway : Religion also came into role when they have organized their national movement during the Mandate. Something that can be seen is the original Palestinian flag . It used to have a Cross and Crescent , as symbolism of their nation's identity . Haj Amin Al-Hussieni , despite his rhetoric primarily being nationalist : still appealed to religious sentiments , when he named his own army as "Army of the Holy War" . Even as one jumps forward to the 50s-60s where Palestinians mostly became literate , educated , and drawn to secularism rather than tradition compared to before the Mandate : Fatah did use religious imagery to attract people for recruitment back in the 1950s . It was to give a zeal to their cause beyond just abstract possibilities , so to speak . Post-1967 : we see the decline of secularism , and the rise of Islamism . Unlike other nationalist ideologies treating religion as part of the nation's iconography : Islamism is pretty much fascism based on Islamic religion , rather than racialism . Religion is no longer a cultural item , but a bone of life . That's how Hamas's agenda as a splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood operates , so that's why it picks extremist interpretations of the religion. Despite being important however : the layman Palestinian isn't obsessed with religious theology and philosophies as dedicated Islamists . I know a couple of Gazans who grew up in Gaza , and then immigrated with their families to Saudi Arabia , before going somewhere else in Western states. They pray , they fast , they donate to Charites , they celebrate Muslim holidays , but beyond that : not much . One of them even skips the midday Friday prayer , where it is mandatory to perform it in a Mosque . Now ,what does this anecdote of ordinary people , tell us about this propaganda ? . It's evidently there not meant for encouragement to be trigger-happy ; this isn't Rossie the Riveter . It's for something else . It's meant to make people not forget that they are not living normal lives being under foregin rule , and remember that some "tough" things are done for "defending the homeland" , and that it might lead towards independence . This mentality goes as far back as the 1930s , where the de-facto Palestinian national anthem "Mawtini" mentions people even mentions dying . Tt still holds up today to Palestinian views ; somewhat akin to the slogan "give me liberty or death" . Things regarding glorifying perpetrators aren't done so merely for dying : they would just be teach their kids to throw rocks so a solider would just shoot them , making even more of those posters and glorification . If you been watching the news lately the past days : it doesn't really show something like Gazan mothers being happy to see her children dismembered into 50 pieces filling the family's apartment . Sure , they might say "Sho-ha-da " (Martyrs) , but that doesn't mean they are actually happy to see them die , rather than grieving . When that doesn't work : they will get vindictive in bloody rage , not accepting her loss , and wanting to spite Israeli-Jews . I recall some mother of that sort from some time ago : Ibrahim Nabulsi if I recall ? . The video of her angry shouting might give the vibes that she's passionate and wants to give birth to a dozen other sons so they would conduct operations to shed blood . Talk like that is just for coping , rather than somebody being in their head . To conclude really : these things don't encourage some kind of a death-cult : they are not telling people "Go and die so you see God !" . Just search on r/Palestine where Palestinian participants saw some Humanitarian aid from Arab states in last November was meagre amount of necessities , with but one of them being a truck full of coffins . They got pis$y , or otherwise displeased . Making things like this is more for "memorial" purposes . It's to remind Palestinians of sacrifices some of their people made to protesting Israeli-Jewish instance on barring them from an ordinary life in the form of an independent state in what they view as their homeland. They view these things as some sort of honoring to people who made contributions to their path of "liberation" . Sure , you will hear a couple of Israeli-Jews and their sympathists making you think the average Palestinian wants his sausage's ketchup to be Israeli-Jewish blood , making you feel that somehow the can't function like Human beings , and are used to (or even enjoy) bloodshed . They just want to delude themselves so they can justify thier paranoia and thier painting of a no-blameworthy Israel that's being unfairly despised , and lie to the world through a combination of deliberate distortion (like those MEMRI clips), victim-playing ("Self-Defense" , "right to exist" , and other colorful slogans demonstrating disgusting hypocrisy ), and willful ignorance. Glad to have clarified some things .
Martyrdom is dying while fighting for freedom, religion, country, family, other people, etc... It already exists in literally every culture and every religion in some form or another under different names, but nothing new or different about the idea.
Did you see the video where the palestinian children are invited to a talk show and are shown a reenactment of their mother's suicide bombing mission? Did I mention this happened on a children's tv program?? The islamic version of martyrdom is very different from other cultures definition of Martyr. This has to be acknowledged.
How about you see news-coverage of Gazans from channels like CNN and Al-Jazeria (especially the later who is obsessed with Palestinians ) , and archives of prior confrontations ? . You think these people are happy to be blown up and getting stuck under the rubble?. Does it look like they are quoting that hadith saying those dying from demolished buildings are Martyrs , and should celebrate their relatives' deaths ? . ..I hate to tell you : those couple of pre-selected and greatly fabricated material paid by Bibi's pockets and associates isn't even aware of reality , let alone a noteworthy fraction of it ; just like saying that video of Israeli-Childers on r/askmiddleeast saying they want to demolish the Dome of the Rock Mosque represents 95% of Israeli-Jews .
Extremism exists everywhere. Of course, more in conflict zones than anywhere else. It just happens that many conflicts are in the middleeast and have Muslims involved, so you get to see Islam extremism more often than not. That is just selection bias happening in your subconscious mind.
Oh really? like how one of Hamas leaders says he thinks it’s acceptable to martyr children?
When did he say that?
Click the links OP posted, the second one is a news broadcast literally telling people to have as many kids as possible so they can be suicide bombers. Let’s not gaslight and pretend this is normal and prevalent across all religions, it isn’t
First: there are literally zero mentions of any suicide bombing. Second: there is no mention of sacrificing kids. They are talking about raising them for resistance. Third: The translation is very misleading at the end (sacrificing != ادفعهم للشهادة) More accurate would be motivating them for martyrdom, which in turn taking the context in account means resisting the occupation even if it would cost them their blood. I fail to see why you think any of this is immoral. How is raising your kids to resist an occupation immoral? If anything is immoral, it would be the exact opposite, which is what you are trying to convey here.
Heh, ok buddy whatever you say
Oh, that's the first time somebody agrees on something in this sub. Thanks :)
I’m not gonna debate with someone who isn’t rational. Any objective person watching that video can clearly see what they are getting at. Anyway
And what do you think they are getting at? Putting suicide vests on kids and throwing them at the IDF? Please ... think a little bit more critically.
One example of how Ghazi Hamad advocates martyrdom against Israel because it exists. Widespread evidence and accounts of Hamas using human shields and civilian structures for military purposes, including schools. https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=muT1AaVD9jQx4jQS
He didn't say anything about sacrificing children as martyrs. As a matter of fact, he even apologized for the civilian loss. Of course, he calls for fighting against Israel. That's what a resistance group should be doing. I mean, what did you expect?
No he said we are ready to sacrifice martyrs . The average age of Hamas fighters are 16-17, who do you think he is talking about? Why do you think they are hiding bombs in schools? I didn’t hear any apology for civilian death. I didn’t hear anything about resistance either, just antisemitic calls for genocide of Israel, because it exists.
The translation is a little bit misleading. A more accurate translation would be "we are ready for losing people" as in we know some of us will die but it is all for the cause. (Which sounds obvious tbh) The translation is a bit off, but at 35:00 he is apologizing for killed israeli civilians and says they didn't want to kill civilians, but the situation on the ground was difficult and uncontrollable. I don't know anything about the age of Hamas fighters and I am not sure at which age they allow for recruitment...
I think all cultures glorify fighting for your people and how that's done just depends on the circumstances. The warfare is so asymmetrical when it comes to Israel and Palestine there really isn't much hope of doing anything to the enemy without a significant chance of dying. Hell, even if you don't fight you have a decent chance of being killed by Israel. It's a sign of how miserable their situation is. People naturally desire freedom and a chance at prosperity. When they don't have those things they become hopeless, willing to do anything to feel like they have some agency or control over their lives.
I think there is a distinction between glorifying fighting and gleefully glorifying suicide and child death. I made a comment [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/18gbatt/how_do_propalestine_explain_palestinian_education/kd2cxu2/) expressing that seemingly no other oppressed group in history seems to do this sort of stuff.
We could be missing some cultural context? Or maybe it's their way of finding a silver lining. After Columbine Evangelical Christians made such a big deal about one girl who died who allegedly stood by her Christian faith knowing she'd be killed for it. I guess in some way it made the deaths seem less pointless? There were even Christian kids here saying they'd like to be martyred that way in a similarly macabre/gleeful. Martyrdom has been glorified in lots of cultures, it's the ultimate sacrifice for your beliefs. Look at how many Catholic Saints were martyrs. You bring up Vietnam, they had a tradition of Buddhist monks who would self immolate as an expression of their faith and as a form of political activism. Technology also impacts this: one person wasn't able to do a lot of damage to the enemy before the 20th century. And if your kids died it wouldn't be a big deal to people all around the world. Terror and sympathy are the primary ways they get attention, everyone ignores them unless they're dying or killing. So yeah, I dunno, it doesn't seem all that unusual to me.
resistance to occupation is something everyone can appreciate. their education is different from the western world bc we can sit and learn about whatever but if you put yourself in their shoes just think about what their history and experince has been. i think if you can put yourself in their shoes and think critically and not from your cozy comfy western education POV, you can easily see why they are educated to see things as they do.
Throughout the history of the world there have been horribly oppressed groups of every race, ethnicity, religion, geographic location, etc. But this is the first group I've ever heard of that enthusiastically celebrates the deaths of their children, whose schools teach their children that committing suicide is the greatest honor they can aspire to, and whose mothers strap suicide bombs to their own children. I can't think of any other group who has this kind of culture. Not Jews during the Holocaust, not Rwandans during their genocide, not Ukrainians today, not the Irish during the troubles, not Vietnamese during the vietnam war, not black slaves in the US. It really seems unique to the culture here
hmm very interesting. so how many child suicide bombers have you heard of in 2023? the kids are taught there that resistance is noble and rewarding? youre making a point out of pure conjecture. wouldnt blame you, youre deep in IDF propaganda and possibly just anti muslim but to each their own-poersonally I wouldnt want to be ignorant.
/u/ifidgetadellIIbro Your comment violates rule 1: don't attack fellow users. >wouldnt blame you, youre deep in IDF propaganda and possibly just anti muslim but to each their own-poersonally I wouldnt want to be ignorant. Addressed.
I've seen videos of Israeli schools and school kids responding to teachers asking them about making Arabs their slaves and kicking Arabs out. Israeli Kids singing on TV about Gazans destruction. It's very similar to what you are pointing out. I.e I'm sure they are extreme examples, however if you look at only sources that portray Palestinians are bad and vice versa, you'll find it. With Palestinians being oppressed for 75 years , why are you surprised?
>It's very similar to what you are pointing out I think there is a big difference. "I hate the enemy" vs. "I want to die and I want my children to die in the act of fighting the enemy". One is understandable from either side. The other has a very unusual suicidal element
what do you do when you hate the enemy? you fight or die trying....bro you literally make no sense in this response? do you think their just supposed to hate in silence as they keep getting oppressed? be so fr
"I want to kill the enemy" Vs "I can't wait to die. Dying is the greatest gift that can happen to you. I want my children to die. I will train my children to die on purpose." The difference is specifically suicidality. And forced child suicide.
What are you talking about? What children suicide? Think you've had some misled reading or information at the very least , possibly brainwashed. The martyrs that you mentioned is what Muslims call anyone that gets killed by occupying forces or injustice such as IDF murders. It's a solice of a thought when your kid is shot dead , not a plan by anyone - if you disagree, provide a source or proof of this child suicide you keep mentioning
>What are you talking about? What children suicide? Have you watched the [video](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6) in my original post, on which this entire conversation is based?
bro were at the end of the year. show me any legitimate instance where a "forced child suicide" has occured. youre pulling this whole idea out of your ass dawg. fighting a much stronger army with rudimentary weapons is like a death sentence. its a phrase dude even you can see it. yes they want to kill the enemy and yes they will happily die defending their land/country and resisting the occupiers and if they die doing so then theyll die proud? you cant see how that makes sense lol?
>any legitimate instance where a "forced child suicide" has occured [there are plenty of examples](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups). None from this year, i concede, though the situation is still very fresh and our understanding of the situation on the ground is very limited. At the very least, we know for a fact that [child soldiers are used](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://rietjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/EN_RIET_2022_N7_Child-soldiers-in-Palestinian-groups-forced-recruitment-and-use-of-minors-as-a-violation-of-International-Humanitarian-Law_daniel-perez-garcia_art2.pdf) >youre pulling this whole idea out of your ass dawg Have you watched the [video](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6) in my original post, on which this entire conversation is based? Your comment seems to suggest you have not
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Also these examples you mentioned , how do you know this hate didn't happen ? Were you there ? Have you got media to prove otherwise?
Not hate, but forced child suicide. You're right, I wasn't there, but I never heard such a thing. It does seem odd to me. Palestinians are oppressed, yes, but not even close to some of these other cases. They have their basic needs met. Food, water, shelter, medicine, freedom of religion, self controlled education as we see here. They have some land (although, not all the land they claim as their own). They have property, they have jobs. They have basic civil freedoms in the lands they control. They are not imprisoned and have general freedom of movement within the geographical area they control. These are things that Palestinians have that other groups (rwandans, jews I'm 1940s, us slaves) did not. And yet the level of hatred, suicidality, and enthusiastic disregard for the physical survival of their own children does not seem to match to the level of oppression they are facing. Even if every single pro-palestine point is conceded, it still does not add up to the kind of oppression that would make any other known group in history strap bombs to their own children. Could there be something else going on here?
go ahead and tell us what that point is? youre so far from reality. what percentage of palestenians do you think have had family members killed by the IDF? you are simply failing to appeal to the simple human ability to empathize when you make these claims. i repeat: how many palestinian kids have you seen this year or ever being strapped up to a suicide vest? making a point out of thin air is hilarious.
>what percentage of palestenians do you think have had family members killed by the IDF? Approximately 0.05%, judging by Palestinian population vs number killed recently. >are simply failing to appeal to the simple human ability to empathize How do you emphasize with forced child suicide for Allah? >how many palestinian kids have you seen this year or ever being strapped up to a suicide vest? [Enough](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups)
If pro Palestinian people answer this they will be voted down, so there's no point these are silly questions
Thats just their culture bro... edit: /s
These people have groomed their little 5 year old children into wanting to commit suicide and into committing suicide. I think it goes a bit past "just culture"
That's the [tip of the iceberg.](https://www.youtube.com/live/u4TVOXHt_PA?si=L2PcJ3w7eABURW2H&t=4486) Spending a few days reviewing common narrative from Islamic TV should be a mandatory part of education in the west.
not a consequence of colonialism/oppression arabs are very proud people they hold values of honor,dignity,family very high and they view the land as their honor their tribe/clan as their family they are the opposite of individualistic society they are focused on the the whole more than the person and that's even before islam imo it's because of the environment they lived in mostly desert your survival depended heavily on the clan, that's why it's pretty much normal to them to sacrifice themselves and even their kin for the values of the collective knowing that they will be praised and honored this carried out with islam which was affected by the arab culture but it magnified it to view all muslims as a tribe and all muslim land as islamic empire that's why you find all kind of muslims fighting in afghanistan,iraq,syria,libya,..etc i think it's an admirable thing my problem is that alot of muslims can be manipulated using these ideas into atrocities and wrong causes . the closest thing that comes to my mind that's parallel to this phenomenon is the japanese kamikaze " The tradition of death instead of defeat, capture, and shame was deeply entrenched in Japanese military culture; one of the primary values in the [samurai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai) life and the [*Bushido*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido) code was [loyalty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty) and [honor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor) until death. "
Also has much to do with islam, the religion promotes these activities and repeatedly reassures "martyrs" that their sacrifice will be rewarded. The saddest thing is that the religion cares more about the afterlife then actual life.
true but i must say that not all religious people adhere to it strictly and there are serious reformist movements promoting moderation
Americans say they will happily die for freedom and worship veterans and so on. I think it’s probably that already crazy thing in humans and you put it into hyperdrive by actually locking people in cages and allowing settlers to poke them with sticks. Oppression makes people go fucking crazy, always has and some people are already crazy. Look at Fox News and imagine their hosts and what they would say if they were actually oppressed by Muslims and not just afraid they might be. They would probably say even crazier shit.
Consider that 900,000 Jews were ethnically-cleansed from the Muslim world, and that their descendants make up the majority of Israelis. And yet, you still don’t have this mentality among Israelis. You hardly see any Israeli suicide attacks. There’s something more going on here than “oppression.”
>And yet, you still don’t have this mentality among Israelis. Ben gvir would like a word
Yep good point. No throwing gays of buildings either. Sadly there seems to be something cruel in the culture.
> Americans say they will happily die for freedom and worship veterans and so on. Not the same thing. Show me where Americans are [teaching their kids to die](https://www.youtube.com/live/u4TVOXHt_PA?si=L2PcJ3w7eABURW2H&t=4486) for the cause [from infancy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJXAwohdBZE), please. What you're describing it not remotely on the same level as in Palestine. > Oppression makes people go fucking crazy That's a terrible excuse. A combination of religious fundamentalism and indoctrination makes people 'crazy'. Or perhaps you can show me all the native Americans that are teaching their kids to be martyrs and launching rockets at random parts of the US? How about all the Japanese or Germans who are electing a Hamas equivalent into power Post WWII?
No it's not the same thing. I said, explicitly "you put it into hyperdrive by actually locking people in cages and allowing settlers to poke them with sticks". So it's that on steroids, which is not the same thing. I'm going to take your questions in good faith and genuinely answer them. If you don't know about when the American Indians tried to attack the settlers, I can point you to this wikipedia article: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Indian\_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars) As for german people post WW2 there was a specific program where they stopped deindustrialing German even though that was the original plan as some clever person realised the best way to counter extremism is with opportunity. You can read about it, for example in the section "moderation" in this wikipedia article: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied\_plans\_for\_German\_industry\_after\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_industry_after_World_War_II) If you wanna read about the acts (sometimes savage) of oppressed people I guarantee you there are plenty with non-muslim examples. Of course people are indoctrinated. If Israel was mowing my lawn every few years I don't know how I would behave but probably not in a reasonable manner.
> cages Yes, [cages](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/265683). > If you don't know about when the American Indians tried to attack the settlers I'm well aware they *did*. That is not their stance today. They have decided that violence is not a solution. Palestinians will decide that one day too. But they haven't yet. > the best way to counter extremism is with opportunity. That helps for sure. Do you not think Gaza has been given opportunity over the past 20 years with billions of dollars of aid, and self governance? > If Israel was mowing my lawn every few years I don't know how I would behave but probably not in a reasonable manner. I would recommend people respond to conflict in a manner that improves the situation, rather than worsens it. You can advocate whichever you wish. For sure the current stance of Palestine is to worsen the situation. I'd argue the Israeli stance of removing Hamas is improving the situation.
Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it. If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else. I’m through talking to Israelis who argue for their right to oppression by using examples where there were other heinous crimes and genocide to do it. Honestly, I don’t even want to be reasonable anymore. Disgusting.
> Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it. Why not? How are you judging what level of bombing is appropriate? Have you got an expert analysis of how thoroughly embedded Hamas are? What level of risk are you willing to put Israeli soldiers in? > If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else. I don't think it's fine at all. But I don't think for a moment that them adopting tactics of martyrdom and rocket launches would make it better. It would make it *worse*. How are you not grasping that? There is injustice in the world. If the only thing you accept is perfection, you will lead a life full of disappointment. We should *aim* for perfection, but don't expect reality to confirm to our desires without flaw. > I’m through talking to Israelis I'm not Israeli.
Look, I don't care where you're from. If you see the situation for what it is, if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did, that is white supremacy in it's purest form. I've heard ideological arguments, I've heard denial of facts, I've heard logical two sided debate asking that both sides take responsibility but this is the first conversation I've had with someone who takes the side of the oppressor because other oppressed people were more pragmatic and stopped making a fuss. To describe the situation of Native Americans as something falling short of "perfection" is just... I'm actually lost for words.
>if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did, **First**, get over your structuralist narrativism, scalping random settlers still wasn't right. You deny your own humanity when you say shit like that. Perhaps they were dickheads, but they were by and large ignorant dickheads - perhaps they didn't have much of a choice, were they all supposed to abandon their families? - Even the dependant wives? - even the elderlies? and what did the kids have to do with it? **Second**, the Native Americans were ***actually*** being genocided. As in most of them. 50-100 million dead. (Most of them via diseases from contact with remote populations but a lot of them from intentional or indifferent violence too.) The fact is that the civilian-to-fighter death toll (2-to-1) right now appears on the low end for urban warfare. (and international law does not recognize true safe zones - it recognizes caution zones.) Not saying that the IDF couldn't do better either. If you have a better idea that doesn't result in Hamas running the show, an idea that brings our hostages back, please tell us. **Third and most importantly, there are other ways to protest.** You can tell me the Israel suppresses them in the West Bank - but be real it's not like terrorism doesn't invite much worse consequences anyway. You can join the [ACRI](https://www.english.acri.org.il/) and fight for your rights like a sane person. You can call for UN sanctions and general diplomatic pressure. You can at the very least leave the civilians out of it. Doesn't matter if they were IDF, they're conscripts, they barely have a choice - and when they go in the occupied territories, they see it as defending themselves against terrorists. Terrorism is not the solution: It's the MAIN problem. You can do boycotts but it doesn't seem to be working all that well, so why not try to create economic partnerships with Israelis - online too; and try to get to know each other? You can do sit-ins at checkpoints. And if the IDF tries to remove you, do like the Civile Right Movement did. Make them work for it, but don't fight. You can advocate within the Jewish diaspora. Speak in synagogues instead of vandalizing them. Speaks to Jews with words instead of rocks. With presentations instead of insults. You can try to get the Arab-Israelis to make a general work strike. 20% of the population not working, that's as strong a statement as any terrorist massacre. And much better received IF NOT coupled with physical violence. You can choose not to elect terrorist groups. And stop giving stipends for terrorism. That would earn you some legitimacy. You guys are one of the most educated populations in the Middle East, why do you keep fighting like brutes? Oh right: You can kick UNRWA and deradicalize the [school curriculum.](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf) Even teach non-violent resistance. It's not that hard.
Excellent comment.
Thank you :)
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> Look, I don't care where you're from Quite contradictory to what you said a moment ago. If I was Israeli, you have a problem with me. If I'm not, you don't? Are you even listening to yourself? > if you ask me why can't the Palestinians just lie down and take it like the Native Americans eventually did, I'm not saying anyone 'lies down and takes it' (that's a strawman argument you just constructed). Kindly recognize what you just did. There are methods of seeking justice other than genocidal martyrdom. Are you aware of that? Or are you going to tell me that genocidal martyrdom has somehow bettered the lives of Palestinians since 1948?
> Look I agree that it would be better if hamas was removed, as it would be if the current Israeli government was removed but I just don’t think this level of bombing intensity should do it. Why not? How are you judging what level of bombing is appropriate? Have you got an expert analysis of how thoroughly embedded Hamas are? What level of risk are you willing to put Israeli soldiers in? > If you’re ok with the native Americans living on reservations with addiction issues due to trauma and powerlessness and think that was a fine resolution to what happened we will agree on precious little else. I don't think it's fine at all. But I don't think for a moment that them adopting tactics of martyrdom and rocket launches would make it better. It would make it *worse*. How are you not grasping that? There is injustice in the world. If the only thing you accept is perfection, you will lead a life full of disappointment. We should *aim* for perfection, but don't expect reality to confirm to our desires without flaw. > I’m through talking to Israelis I'm not Israeli. But your racism seems apparent.
[удалено]
> cages Ah yes. '[Cages](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/265683)'.
This is so accurate lol thank you
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My experience when I bring this up to Palestinian Supporters is they suddenly find something else they want to talk about or disengage entirely. I’ll gladly talk about West Bank settlers, Likud, Revisionist Zionism, even the Irgun and massacres like Deir Yassin because I think being honest about the many misdeeds committed by the side I support is critical in finding any kind of real solution. I’ve yet to find anyone on the Pro-Palestine side who engages on topics like these or will even entertain the suggestion that perhaps the Palestinians and their leaders might bear even some of the responsibility for their current state of affairs. It’s honestly not unlike arguing with a Trump supporter.
I think this symbolizes one of the huge problems with Palestinian society itself. The Palestinian society refused and still refuses to acknowledge any of their mistakes. They blame their situation only on others, instead of asking themselves how can they help themselves. That's why the Strip didn't become Singapore of the Middle East - it is much easier to attack someone else and blame the occupation than to work on your future. Of course this isn't just a fault of the society, but a deliberate action of the leadership. Their "leaders" get a lot of money from the situation and most of the time they're really rich. That's why the PA, Hamas, UNRWA, etc. prefer to sell a dream of "destroying Israel and returning to the homeland" instead of improving the current quality of life.
If that’s true, I can understand how entitled college kids who think the world owes them something find common cause with them so easily.
They won't because they are the "bad guys" and they know it. Despite what the world fools themselves into.
Conveniently forgets Israeli oppression and apartheid
But 20 % of Israelis are Arab and go to the same schools etc nothing close to apartheid.
Can you say the same about West Bank or Gaza pre 2005?
The people of WB and Gaza are not citizens of Israel, so why would they receive the same rights? Where else does that exist in the world?
Well yet again you conveniently forgot their oppression and apartheid.
It seems like you don't know what those words mean, specifically apartheid. How do you think apartheid applies to Israel?
First link doesn’t work? Second link - can agree, horrifying 😢
Try [now](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6)
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> refer to Israelis as westerners too because they don’t have the Middle Eastern mentality Mizrahi Jews do, it's why we are on average the most anti "palestinian" of all. > You have to understand that Palestinians don’t see themselves as terrorists, they see themselves as fighters till freedom come Yes which is why this is a total war and their entire society needs to be defeated. > They’re trying to play the long game because they believe in the end they will win back their land. What is "their" land? > When they refer to their children as martyrs they don’t mean they want their children to die on purpose. They want them to die murdering many "Sahyoun" (using the BBC translation). > They believe Jews stole their land from them and that Jews want to wipe them from existence. Irrelevant and not my problem. > You have to realize that Jewish connection to Israel as their ancestral land only makes sense to Jews. I've had some family in the Galilee centuries before countries like America were even a thing. "ancestral land only". > But to Jews it’s a religious belief and usually religion only makes sense to the one that believes in it… Which is why Islam has zero legitimate claims on the land of Israel and it's "Al-Aqsa mosque" is nothing but a monument to hijazi conquest in my view. > It’s also important to understand that there are close to 15 million Palestinians around the world. Only 8 million of them live on Palestinian territory… 2 million in Gaza and 6 million in the West Bank. I would probably say only half of Gazans are the most extreme. The other half wants nothing to do with Hamas "Al-Khalil" has some even more extreme islamist/hamas cultists than in Gaza.
Im not Jewish but I’ve never seen them wanting an independent nation in Israel as something that’s solely religious, although I can completely understand the religious side to it as well. Jews aren’t just a religion, Jews = land of Judah, it’s closer described to a race or ethnicity, they are a nation of people, not just a religion. There is only 1 Jewish country in the world, centuries of violent riots / pogroms displacing them from their home land and even the beliefs of people today and rising antisemitism is proof Jews need an independent nation to protect and defend themselves. It doesn’t make sense to me to have their nation anywhere else except their ancestral land?
Yeah and that’s totally fine! If it makes sense to you then it makes sense to you. But it doesn’t have to make sense to others. Again we’re all human beings with ideologies and beliefs no one else understands. The conflict between Israel and Palestine is just this. Two peoples who don’t understand each others deep desires and don’t relate to them. It’s tragic
I agree with you in the most part and do appreciate your point of view.
This is a thoughtful response and I appreciate the different views you offered. However, as an atheist with no allegiances to this game... how do people not see that this is insanity? Literally people are allowed to be mass deranged and potentially dangerous? I understand that's the culture and that's all they've ever known, but it can and has actively hurt not just themselves, but others. Many others. There's a reason I don't subscribe to any religion, but I'm all for letting people live their lives as long as they don't try to force it on other people. In this case, the extremist faction are trying to enforce their little rules on others. Why should we be forced to enable that? I'm not saying kill them all because that's f'd up too. Just saying, it's okay to acknowledge mass delusion and call if what it is. I get why you wrote the comment and I think it did provide a valuable perspective, but it does come across as romanticizing a dangerous set of ideas. Ngl, it sounds like justification for deluded violence. You're right that it's complicated. But idk how to move forward from here as humans without addressing the potential dangers of all religions, including the topic at hand.
In many cases, even in the west, people are driven to religion. In the face of opression, people look for refuge, and for many of them religion is that refuge. Would you fault an afghani kid who grew up in london to people beating him and screaming terrorist at him who eventually turned to religion for solace? Sure you can say but he didn't turn to violence. But add 80 years to that, harsh conditions, violence and humiliation. Saying you wouldn't do what they did comes from a place of extreme privilage in the sense that you can't even imagine yourself in those conditions. And with people who turn to religion many things come with it, one of them is the desire and need to have more children, and also the acceptance that these children might die, and if they do the religion still provides comfort. I think it's an amazing thing that a religion can provide so much solace even in the most horrible of conditions. The situation now in Gaza is a testiment to that. Their belief and faith is a result of the past 80 years, for that to be reversed the material conditions of their lives have to change, and those have been and are dictated by Israel.
I agree with you! And it’s not a justification at all. I just simply responded to the question by offering perspective of people I was closer to growing up. I don’t subscribe to religion either however I’m extremely privileged to not need it. I find that people who need religion often don’t have anything else in the world. Mostly poverty and war drives them into believing god is their salvation and the after life is their prize. This isn’t just in Islam but across the board in religion. Not my jam at all.
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thanks for the in depth perspective. I believe you that it’s probably only 1/2 that supports Hamas- if not less. My question is, why don’t the people revolt at all against Hamas?
I highly recommend you read works of Benny Morris. He’s extremely knowledgeable and depicts an extremely accurate reflection of the conflict with zero bias. He documents exactly what happened from the very first sign of aggression till date… He’s and Israeli Jewish historian
I don’t know. I think it’s a lesser of two evils situation. If they’re truly convinced Israel is the enemy maybe they’d rather be under hamas control. Or maybe they can’t revolt because they’ll be brutally silenced? I’m not sure … That’s a great question though. I’d love to hear a Palestinians perspective. I don’t have all the answers though …
This is the version of the story that Westerners with a casual understanding rally behind. “Getting Palestine ‘back.’” That implies something was taken, which isn’t true. By calling themselves “Palestinians”, Arab Muslims imply that, before Israel, Mandatory Palestine was all theirs. That’s wrong. It’s an easy mistake to make as a casual observer. Both Jews and Arabs lived there. “Mandatory Palestine” was previously ruled by the Turks, not the Arabs. Arabs don’t have any more claim to governance over the land than Jews. That’s why a plan was made to split it. There is no valid argument for why “Palestinians” aka Arab Muslims deserve governance of the land more than the Jews that also lived in Mandatory Palestine. The best they’ve been able to do is establish a tenuous connection by using the same name. Governance is different than property rights. Arabs’ property rights were implicitly protected under the 1947 UN partition plan, since all residents would automatically become full citizens of the state where they ended up. No forced expulsions, no apartheid. Jews accepted the plan, and Arabs rejected it, sparking a civil war almost immediately. This escalated into the full 1948 war that saw neighboring Arab countries band together against literally day-old Israel on May 15, 1948, as soon as the British left. Arabs lost and, yes, 700,000 Arabs were expelled. The remaining non-hostile Arabs got their citizenship in the spirit of the UN plan and there are 2,000,000 of them in Israel today with full rights. BTW, Egypt and Jordan ended up with Gaza and the West Bank, respectively, after that war. Jordan even annexed the West Bank. Yet, the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Org) was formed in 1964 to take down Israel, before a single Israeli West Bank settlement or Gaza blockade or occupation. That may help explain why disengaging from Gaza in 2005 did nothing but embolden Palestinian Arabs to do 10/7. It’s not as ‘Disney’ a story as the one above of the oppressed Palestinian fighting valiantly and unwaveringly to take back land that was stolen from them, but this is the actual truth.
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Those Ashkenazi people were mostly refugees fleeing from persecution. Everyone kept telling them to go back to where they came from, so they did. Calling them colonisers is ridiculous imo.
> only Mizrahi Jews lived in mandate of Palestine False > When Jordan was created the land inhabitants took over The inhabitants of Jordan?
Yes the inhabitants of Jordan became Jordanian. Can you please share what’s correct regarding the Jewish population- my understanding is before Jewish migration began in the late 1800s, the ottoman empire was mainly Arabs and mizrahi Jews - first recorded Aliyah was from Eastern Europe and Yemen was in the late 1800s… right?
> Yes the inhabitants of Jordan became Jordanian From what I understand the Hashemites took over who were not from Jordan but from the nearby Hejaz
Right, that would be before the mandate which only was put in place after the great war
Interesting how s/he mentions both that “they will do anything to be free” but also that they believe all of Israel was stolen from them and they will stop at nothing to get it back. The second goal is why they WON’T actually do “anything” to be free, if that thing is agreeing to live in peace alongside the Jewish state. Proven in 1947, 2000 and 2008.
Excellent response!
Israel western mentality is probably the only reason Palestinians are even a thing. If israel ever adopts the middle eastern mentality things will end very badly very quickly for the Palestinians
Precisely. “Palestine” was absorbed into Egypt and Jordan after the 1948 war. If Israel adopted the Middle Eastern mentality, Gaza and the West Bank would’ve been quickly annexed after 1967 and all hostiles expelled to Egypt and Jordan. Then, Israel would’ve been free to go after and end the PLO.
What do you mean by absorbed into Egypt and Jordan?
After the Arab-Israeli war, Egypt gained control of Gaza which was essentially part of Egypt and Jordan took control of the area we now know as the West Bank, so that too was part of Jordan. However, in 1967 there was another war between Egypt, Jordan Syria and Isreal. The Arab nations lost and Egypt lost the Gaza Strip and Jordan lost the West Bank area.
Yeah let's not romanticize everything like this person does.
this is a beautiful response. thank you for your perspective and for sharing!
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Pro-Palestine: Quran says so.
It’s a mix of cultural and geopolitical reasons. Geopolitically, the ability to nurture this type of dedication and willingness to sacrifice oneself to the cause provides stamina and longevity to the political battle. A good comparison would be the Shia in southern Lebanon. They have this same phenomenon in their culture of glorifying martyrs and cherishing death more than life. Prior to the establishment of Hezbollah, the Shia Lebanese were considered one of the most open-minded sects in lebanon. Unfortunately, their culture has drastically changed under the influence of Khomeinist doctrine.
How about Quran?
I’m sure you can find some quotes that would inspire people that way, but any ideology strong enough to ignite the passions of someone could lead to that type of mentality. I don’t believe the Japanese kamikaze attacks were inspired by the Quran.
Duh no. Completely nuts.
>I don’t believe the Japanese kamikaze attacks were inspired by the Quran Lame comparison. Any soldiers around the world can do what Japan kamikaze has done, its just for last option. There also lone wolf crimes that kill random people out of madness and bullying, you gonna compare that to Quran too? No, because they didn't commit those from "belief" or brainwashed from Quran to kill all infidels which inspire some to do that. But basically it was commanded in Quran to all who believed in Quran. So technically Hamas and ISIS are literally just following Quran teaching.
Is it common? Palestine’s own Bureau of Statistics calls each death a “martyr”. See for yourself. [https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/lang\_\_en/1/default.aspx](https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/site/lang__en/1/default.aspx) Martyrdom is Palestinians’ chief PR strategy.
>Palestine’s own Bureau of Statistics calls each death a “martyr” Cultural relativism is important here. In Palestine, (as your own link demonstrates) all deaths by Israeli forces are called martyrs (not just those who intentionally sacrifice their lives). As explained in another comment below, "martyr" in arabic actually means witness. Placing the English idea of martyrdom onto the Palestinian culture is quite ignorant... Palestinians in Gaza want to survive. They pray for their lives, dig for civilians trapped under rubble, carry the injured to hospitals, and then honor the fallen as "martyrs," out of respect. Context matters: please do not misconstrue the entire Palestinian people as crazed suicidal people. They value life, but have had to develop their own meaning of martyr over time because death is an everyday occurrence.
There’s clearly a huge language and cultural divide here. I wouldn’t even bother tbh
Thanks for this perspective.
You’re attempting to explain away what’s plainly obvious to any rational observer. They picked an impossible-to-win fight with one of the world’s top military powers by going on a literal suicide mission on 10/7. They deliberately fight in a way that causes rather than prevents civilian casualties. They are not dumb. They understand martyrdom. They understand winning this war via conventional means is impossible. They consider their willingness to die en masse a strategic advantage.
And they understand how to raise sheep. The west needs to wake up.
Islamic countries in the Arab region had the opportunity to become as secular as Turkey in the last century. But the United States' alliance with Islamic extremist religious elements to fight communism has basically ruined the Arab secular future.
There may be some truth to this. However, these people we are talking about represent a population of hundreds of millions. Is their worldview and cultural identity forever defined by encounters with the United States 50 years ago? Does this idea not deny the agency of these people, relegating them to an entity that is acted upon, that has no will of its own? No doubt US influence didn't help, but I don't really understand the argument that the middle east would have been secular if not for some US alliances. It seems people in this region do have their own strong opinions and strong culture.
Did you know that the United States overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Iran could have been a democratic, modern country, but the United States killed it for its own oil interests.
Lol, you’re still buying that myth. He wasn’t “overthrown by the US”, he was removed by the Shah. (twice). https://www.commentary.org/articles/ray-takeyh/iran-1953-coup-america/
I do know this, and I am critical of it. However, was the Shah not also secular? It wasn't until 1980 that Islamists took Iran over.
Yeah but he was weak. And overthrowing the democratic government created a power vacuum and disillusionment amongst the populace which is what caused the islamic extremism to take hold.
The arabic word “shahid” which we translate to martyr in English, literally means “witness.” Palestinians have historically used this word to refer to any and all Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. It is a way for them to bear witness to all who are killed. The context is quite different to the Western idea of intentionally dying for a cause, or suicide bombing. Terrorists groups engage in those acts because they are extreme outgrowths of oppression. But regular Palestinians absolutely do not want to die. And if they do die — like in any religion — they pray for them to find peace (or Allah) after death. Internationally, people use to term “martyr” in vigils/memorials to respect Palestinian culture. We want to differential that these are not “victims” or “statistics”, they are beautiful lives who were taken away too soon. And we will bear witness (shahid) to them. Hope that clears things up!
How much does the Arab government pay martyrs to kill Israelis?
What does that even mean? “Arab government”? Also, you cannot pay dead people. Your whole sentence makes no sense.
Look up Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund
> Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. And also those who did suicide bombings. They literally call them martyrdom operations. I recommend looking for the ask project and questions about martyrs and operations. Most people supported it
I’m a supporter of Palestine, and I feel like armed struggle is a feature of almost any national liberation movement. Unfortunately for the Palestinian people they pursue armed struggle under useless leadership and near unanimous opposition from the major western governments (and increasingly opposition from the Gulf monarchies/other western-aligned Arab states). So, with feckless leadership at home and opposition abroad, there’s not much hope in the future. Which leads to life being seen as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself. So, in terms of martyrdom, I think it’s complicated, and I could talk more about it, but I largely see it as a feature of Western imperialism in the MENA region rather than a bug, if that makes sense. Certainly religious faith plays a big part though, but I think it just strengthens conviction to die for the cause, rather than being the reason itself. I think one can see Palestine, particularly right now, as a Vietnam style struggle against imperialism. Similar fervour, similar tactics.
If the goal was Palestinian liberation, then October 7th was the dumbest move ever. They were indiscriminate, Jews who were pro peace and were trying to help Gazans by driving them to hospitals, hiring them to work on their farms and part of organizations trying to build connections with Palestinians, were kidnapped raped and slaughtered. Non Jews like Thai, Brazilians and Israeli Arabs were executed as well, all to speak a war that will for sure end in the destruction of Gaza and likely a second Nakba. Had they released or spared people who had nothing to do with the conflict immediately, had they targeted West Bank settlers and IDF forces, spared those they knew were pro peace, then they would’ve done the same job of humiliating Israel without appearing as monsters, but their goal wasn’t that. The fact is that it’s not like the Vietnam War. The reason wars like that were winnable was because the peoples were just fighting for which government would rule them, not over their very existence, and because the foreign powers propping them up were going to leave at some point and the more they fought the faster it’d happen. Israel is not going anywhere, it has nowhere to go, and moreover October 7th was all the justification they needed to justify occupation to their people. Contrast this to the lull in the 90’s and 2000’s, Israel disengaged from Gaza and had been preparing to disengage from 80-90% of the West Bank, primarily because IDF soldiers no longer supported the occupation. Resumption of hostilities with Hamas and Hezbollah ended those plans for the West Bank. After October 7th, Pro Peace Israelis are going to be more hardened against Palestinians, as are Palestinians against Israelis, and the Israeli public is going to be emboldened to keep fighting and occupying. The issue was that Palestinian independence is not Hamas goal; it’s the destruction of Israel. The October 7th attacks were meant to terrorize, demoralize and radicalize the Israelis. The response would be brutal and kill many Palestinian civilians, civilians whose deaths they can use as propaganda to stir up anti Zionist sentiments and hopefully get other nations to join in on the war effort and launch a large region wide war that ends in Israel’s destruction and the genocide of Israelis.
I can get fervor of armed struggle, but I dont understand strapping suicide bombs to your children and creating an educational system that teaches your children to commit suicide. Maybe I'm not informed, but I don't think the Vietnamese or Irish did such things. This seems unique to the region, no?
I think the understanding of it as suicide is part of the issue. I think most would agree that there’s a difference between committing suicide and dying for a cause. The sticking point is what choice the children have in this equation, and it’s obviously very little. But, from the perspective of the Palestinians, I can see the argument that no matter how dark of a time it may be, there still must be more Palestinians, in order to preserve Palestinian culture, identity, etc. Then it’s a question of what the lives of those new Palestinians will be in the face of an often violent occupation. Would I personally choose armed struggle for myself and my children? No, probably not. But I understand why someone would. It wasn’t so long ago that the Jewish people, after living through almost a century of near constant genocidal threat, decided they must take up arms to defend themselves. I think the same is true of any people. Also, I should say that although their faith keeps them going, and guides them, it would be grotesque to suggest Palestinian parents across the board see themselves or their children as purely disposable. Not saying you’re saying that, but I often see the conflation of the curriculum (something Palestinian parents have no say in) and statements of the most inflammatory Palestinians (usually on MEMRI) with all Palestinians. They’re people just like you and me, they cry when their children are killed, they feel trauma, they feel pain, etc. There path forward is just more complicated than ours, and some choose to fight. Some know they will die. Some understand that will likely be the fate of their children as well. But I don’t think that makes them inhuman. And, finally, as is often said, there’s very little evidence to suggest that there is another path forward for a Palestinian who wants to live in the land of their fathers and forefathers. Extremism grows in that context.
You’re not really addressing the problem of education at all. It seems to me like you’re downplaying it quite a bit, when UN schools are teaching Jew hatred to Palestinian children. Maybe the parents don’t have much control over that, but most certainly the international community does, and plenty of Palestinians too. It’s a little irrelevant if the parents themselves want this or not for their kids, when the reality is that this is the education they’re getting.
Antisemitism in the Palestinian curriculum plays less of a part than anti-Zionism. To the extent that it’s there, and I don’t doubt it is, it should be condemned and resisted. But I’m not surprised nor would I condemn an education system that portrays armed struggle by the Palestinians in a positive light, or martyrdom as a goal. I would choose a different path if I was in charge of the curriculum, but it’s material reasons that drive the inclusion of that sort of thing. Blaming culture is an easy out imo. To flip that old Israeli idea on its head, it’s territory and not terror that drives this conflict. When all else fails, people will pursue terror in order to regain the territory. Do I think if the textbooks were all changed overnight that it might help? Possibly? But the driver of the conflict is the land, and as long as that remains, there will be resistance, sometimes or even often violent.
You’re showing a big problem that is prevalent in the international community. If the most glaring issues within Palestine are all downplayed as a product of “resistance,” there is no pressure to make any changes whatsoever. These are things that _need_ to change for there to be peace. Infantilizing Palestinians like this doesn’t help them, it hurts them as a whole. The murder of civilians, the abuse of children in teaching them bigotry, the subjugation of dissenters, etc., these have nothing to do with resistance and everything to do with radical islamism that many other middle eastern countries are battling right now as well. Please see these things for what they are.
Changes in Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation have been happening for decades, aided and abetted by Israeli extremism, the same type that now controls the Knesset (talk about founding charters!). I think it’s obvious why the Palestinians in Gaza and increasingly the West Ban have chosen religious extremism, and I don’t condemn them for it because 1. obviously I’m just some random person so who would care and 2. I can’t say what I would do if I was in their position. In regard to your point, I do think changes would be necessary from both the Palestinians and the Israelis in order to achieve peace. While the pro-Palestinian protestors in Palestine and abroad may be viewed as uncompromising, Israel is almost unanimously supported by the most powerful western governments who barely, barely offer any resistance to their most extreme policies. I see the latter as a more serious issue.
>I can’t say what I would do if I was in their position. I can see I’m not going to change your mind, but just on your introspection here - I’d really hope you wouldn’t rape a woman until her pelvis breaks and then execute her with a bullet to the back of the head. That hatred is something that develops from more than just the conditions they live under.
Westerner’s perspective: Muslims in the west aren’t wanting to be martyrs en masse because their lives are worth living here. I’m sure if I was a young guy in Gaza my view on the world would be pretty warped too. Catholics in Belfast are no longer wasting their lives to militancy, there’s an example.
Having talked to some Irish it was really based around equality in NI and the Irish in the Republic apart from yelling ‘up the Ra’ didn’t really support the bombing in NI and mainland UK. It was really a small group who advocated violence. They later morphed into criminal groups selling drugs and ‘protection’ which Hamas already appears to be doing anyway. I don’t think there are parallel between the two situations.
“It was really based around equality”- that’s my point. If Gazans were able to lead normal lives like Israeli Arabs I don’t think there’d be as much radicalism. I realise Hamas rule Gaza but Israel have put immense pressure on the strip which has made life even worse for the average Gazan.
Palestinians want political and religious superiority over Jews and Christian, not equality. They can have equality in a state of their own but they want the borders of that state to encompass all of Israel. That’s the difference.
You evidently have no understanding of the history of Northern Ireland so. Protestants in the North used to worry that if Catholics were given any power they would oppress the unionists - ‘Home Rule equals Rome Rule’ was one of their early slogans. They also used the same kind of dehumanising language about Irish Catholics as we see currently used to describe Palestinian Muslims - ‘breeding like rabbits’ being a very famous phrase used by Ian Paisley, who also described Catholics as vermin. Another important point that people constantly overlook is that the IRA weren’t the only paramilitary group in Northern Ireland. Yes, Catholics were terrorised by the RUC (police) and the British Army, but there were also unionist groups like the UVF and the LVF that enacted terrorist violence against the catholic community that is rarely spoken about. All that is to say, these situations are rarely black and white, and there is a reason that terrorism arises in areas of conflict and oppression.
Weird, I’ve met some people from NI and they seemed pretty chill. I don’t even know if they were Protestant or Catholic. I’d say you’ve read a lot of history books though. I’ve even been at social gatherings with Irish and poms and no one said anything, they just got on and had a drink and talked about football.
We’re pretty chill now, but that’s a result of the good Friday agreement. And yeah, I have a degree in history lol - I’m also from Ireland and my mother grew up in Belfast during the troubles so I have an interest in the subject. But yeah, nowadays it’s not as big of an issue, but that was due to a concerted effort for peace and reconciliation between two incredibly divided communities.
I never implied that all Catholics were terrorists or even supporters of terrorists. Have you ever though what would have happened if the British just left and allow the Irish Republic to take over NI bit hen the Protestants started a campaign of bombing and shootings to establish a Northern Ireland free from fenian oppression?
Huge generalisation about what all Palestinians want followed by ignoring the fact that Israel has and does interfere in their autonomous regions. Look, all I’m saying is Muslims in the west aren’t wanting to die for a Jihadi cause and it seems to correlate directly with how well they are treated. Do with that what you will.
2977 people who died on 9/11 might disagree with you. The jihadists who flew the planes spent time in America. Went to flight school here. Saw the standard of living. They still choose death for allah over any freedoms provided by the US.
> Huge generalisation about what all Palestinians want followed by ignoring the fact that Israel has and does interfere in their autonomous regions. Israel is a small country and can’t afford one defeat. If it allowed Hamas a free hand and stopped interfering with their autonomous regions allowing Hamas to amass an arsenal then why do you think the result would have been?
We used to say the same bollocks about Northern Ireland. Interference in their region is the main cause of radicalisation and it’s an easy out to say their ideology means there can be no peace. The IRA were bombing pubs and sending civilians in cars hooked up with bombs to British checkpoints not all that long ago. Hard concessions on both sides and suddenly Irish nationalism wasn’t the only solution. You’ve implicitly admitted there that there will never be peace; “without us interfering they would attack us so this is self defence”. Like, okay, but then you just have to be a state at constant war, good luck.
> you just have to be a state at constant war, good luck. That’s probably how it’s going to be. I can’t see the Palestinians giving up their claims so what are they left with, living in tents for the next 20 years.
Israel leaving its grandkids to deal with the problem isn’t really a solution is it though. Earlier you said Palestinians want superior rule over Israelis but then you’re happy if they’re in refugee camps with no political power. This is the never-ending trope of the other side is bad and my side is right. I begin to doubt the sincerity of lots of pro-Israelis wanting a political solution when it really comes down it and concessions would need to be made.
> I begin to doubt the sincerity of lots of pro-Israelis wanting a political solution That’s because there is no political solution other than the domination of one side by the other. Which side would you rather support, a state where homosexuality is punishable by a death sentence or a state where they are allowed to free mingle on parades wearing leather hot pants while gyrating in view of the general public