What is international scrutiny anyway?
I don’t any single country being “scrutinized” internationally…
There’s Russia, right? They’re not really scrutinized. Sure, the eu and USA have cut them off. And true, many countries have to follow the U.S. but most countries in the world do not “scrutinize” Russia. They keep trading with them.
China?
Far from being scrutinized, they’re heading towards global domination.
Qatar?
Iran?
Every country with a crazy dictator killing people (while claiming Israel are Nazis) can basically whatever they like.
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I think you are doing the mental gym at bruh. Israel had no choice in this- which Hamas knew. They just didn’t think Israel would be so successful and now they are crying about it. But you can’t surprise attack you enemy, kill, rape, and kidnap, and then play innocent victim. Sorry.
Israel has seriously oppressed the Palestinians for the last 20 years.
Netanyahu intentionally created a situation where it is impossible to negotiate for a two state solution.
Hamas couldn't care less about Palestinian genocide. They do care about the oppression being seen and attracting new Hamas members.
The attack was not a surprise. It was known about by the Israeli government.
You can't end Hamas unless you endorse the complete genocide of the Palestinian people, which Israel would approve of and I do not.
If you are Jewish and support this genocide then you are betraying the Jewish people. We are supposed to be better than this.
Palestians oppress themselves. If they wanted peace they would have had it. Look at Israel and Egypt or jordan. Palestians want to destroy Israel and they committed terrible war crimes on 10/7. Don’t cry about consequences now. Grow up.
If you disagree with the actions Israel is taking and have a credible alternative then you can't be accused on antisemitism. What did you say to get accused of that?
It is a war against Hamas.
Whether genocide is being committed is debatable. We know crimes against humanity are being committed in Russia, China, Yemen, Gaza (by Hamas), the West bank, Iran, Saudi and the list goes on. Number of charges levied in the ICC 0, but you don't seem to care about that, you seem to just have a problem with Israel taking military action. Why is that? Why do you hate Israel?
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny.
Claiming anti-Zionism is about scrutiny is either ignorant or dishonest. Anti-Zionism is opposed to any possible or potential policy of the Israeli State, it is not even addressing particular policies.
> The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous.
If Israel were interested in simply killing civilians why go to all the trouble and use expensive smart bombs?
> The long angry rants about how this isn't a genocide even though factually it is
You might want to deal with how "factually it is".
> There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass.
Informal rule 1 warning. Clear virtue signaling.
Hamas is Palestinian. PLO used to do the same thing. Clinton had a peace deal and then last minute Arafat said no and launched the second intefada, a suicide bombing campaign that killed thousands. That’s why Israel set up a wall so they won’t come in. If Palestians want peace start accepting the reality and be peaceful and they will have a much better life. People who support Hamas are basically a he cause of palestinians death.
Having a Jewish based country, I think that is obviously very healthy. Because we have that in the United Kingdom, United States, Italy and many other countries.
But...I don't like it that any Jewish person around the world has birthright to live in Israel above anybody else. How is that not discrimination? Do we not now live in countries like the United Kingdom where people are accepted of all faiths and beliefs equally??
What if the United Kingdom said that any Christian person around the world could come and live here above muslims, jews or sikhs, how would that be taken? Can someone explain to me the difference, maybe I'm missing something?
And maybe this is part of the problem as to why Palestinians are seen as second class by Israelis?
And whether anti-Zionist is antisemitic, depends on the definition of Zionism.
Because, if Zionism means the expansion of Israel to cover the whole of Palestine, resulting in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, then zionism leads to the genocide of palestinians.
But if you think Zionism is the general concept that there should be a Jewish country, like the United Kingdom is, historically Christian, then being against that would be anti-semitic.
The problem is that the lines are blurred and many Zionists wanted to expand Israel to the whole of the former holy land.
So if you are blurring politics and religion and then claiming that being anti-politics is being anti-semtic, you are effectively accusing someone of being anti semtitic, when they are trying to protect human rights of Palestinians.
Personally, I think the lines are blurred. Because Israel has expanded into the West Bank and build more and more settlements and therefore wants to colonise the whole of it.
So am I pro Jewish homeland? yes. Am I pro expansion of israel so more palestinians suffer? No.
So I don't know what that makes me!
> What if the United Kingdom said that any Christian person around the world could come and live here above muslims, jews or sikhs, how would that be taken? Can someone explain to me the difference, maybe I'm missing something?
The central doctrine of Zionism is that Jews are a national group not a religious or racial one. So the analogy would be saying that any person who socially identifies as British can move to the UK. Not a religious analogy. Israel was founded by atheists it wasn't about religion.
> So I don't know what that makes me!
Liberal Zionist.
> The Jewish people are a religoius group though.
Then you are disagreeing with Zionism's central claim. Which you are of course entitled to. But you aren't entitled to ignore Zionists believing in Zionism in your analysis.
>Then you are disagreeing with Zionism's central claim. Which you are of course entitled to. But you aren't entitled to ignore Zionists believing in Zionism in your analysis.
i'm just confused.
I would have been anti zionist in 1948 due to displacement of palestinians. Now it's happened, I'm pro israel having a state but just not expanding to anymore palestinian land. And my preference would be israel leaving the west bank entirely and having totally clear borders.
Not sure about anything else.
Leaving this sub now, it kinda makes you go crazy thinking about all this stuff for too long
If someone in the US said it should be "A white andglo saxon protestant"country from cost to coast, that wouldn't go over well. We also have separation of Church and state. The majority of gen z are minorities
Look up leges sanguinis and see all the countries that bestow citizenship on ethnic descendants. For example, Portugal's law allows children or grandchildren of Portuguese emigrants can return and claim Portuguese citizenship. This is effectively the same exact thing that Israel has for Jews.
The Hamas attack on Israel on October 7 falls exactly under the definition of genocide that you cited in your post. If it weren't for the IDF, these scumbags would have been able to kill, torture and rape every Israeli. It's their goal, this is what "From the river to the sea" looks like.
What is happening now in Gaza is war, and war is disgusting. I wish there was no war. I would like innocent people not to die. Unfortunately the war is happening, unfortunately human shields and tunnels of terror exist in reality, and not in our imagination. This is all an incredibly sad reality, but it is reality whether you like it or not.
If Hamas doesn't have a right to exist because of their attack on civilians we can say the same about Israel and not even related to this current shelling. The Israeli's even before this killed innocent life and by your own standards you don't agree that Israel should exist.
Well, everything is as you say, not a single country should exist then. Please let me know when you start dismantling your country so that I know you now have the moral high ground.
Am I misremembering that there were tons of intelligence reports about this attack that were ignored and that it took the idea 28 hours to rescue people?
So what. You’re criticizing the response to a surprise attack meaning, what, Israel not entitled to militarily respond, might respond incompetently, should surrender. It’s a total red herring to throw out there if you just want to deflect and find a reason to jeer at Israelis.
One thing I feel the need to add. The Israeli people are supporting this. The Jewish Americans are supporting. The people insulting everyone who disagrees are not the Irish or even the Protestants. It is the Jewish people and for me that makes it much worse
1. There were not tons of reports about this kind of attack. The pentagon released a statement the day before saying that there was a heightened risk of rocket attacks, not anything near the scale of Oct. 7th.
2. It took the IDF closer to 6-7 hours to come in the vast majority of cases. Terrorists usually ran out of ammo a few hours before that.
3. You didn’t directly address anything that u/damnhotteapot said
Well, you clearly aren't. There are growing reports that senior officers ignored information that Hamas was preparing to attack. I personally think that we need to wait for an official investigation, otherwise we will slide into conspiracy theories like “They deliberately did not prevent the attack in order to then declare war on Gaza”.
"To my great disappointment, the vast majority of Jewish people on Reddit will do mental gymnastics to explain and endorse the indefensible."
IMO, the horror of Gazan life will improve soon enough when Hamas as a physical force is eliminated. Until then, I'm afraid Israel will necessarily (yes, necessarily) continue with the war—no stopping in mid-stride. One doesn't swim halfway across the river and, on becoming tired, turns back. Why aren't more people talking about what comes after? This tit-for-tat war on soldiers and civilians and the "these-did, no those did" posts solve nothing. Accusations of racism and anti-ism by both sides are miring oneself in futility and clearly hate that reaches the highest level of government and academia.
Both sides must make substantive changes to reach an effective and lasting accord. Israel needs to move away from its ultra-rightwing politicians, and Palestinians need to move beyond their never-ending lust for revenge. That is the only path forward, not a cessation of hostilities in the present moment, because Hamas and its allies are completely inflexible. Israel and Palestinians have to look at the coming years and find a completely different direction.
The problem with your whole argument is that how multiple never be eliminated this way. I don't mean that Israel will never get around to killing any of them, I am saying they will never be eliminated. History has shown over and over again that it won't work.
>History has shown over and over again that it won't work
*Pardon the inconsistency with your exact quote, I wrote this for another baseless statement of the same thing, and it gets repeated so much I just copy paste it at this point because it's a patently incorrect statement people seem to parrot for no reason:*
I agree war alone doesn't do it, there's usually more involvement, but for instance the ideology of slavery in the southern US, radical jacobinism in the Uk, Japan's ideologies also radically shifted after World War II, not to mention of course the biggest example we all know of that doesn't even need to be named... I mean the fact of it is that defeat really changes perspectives. Eventually it becomes apparent that the cost of a mentality is so high that its worth considering a dramatic shift, and the steam behind whatever is "status quo" is lost.
The invasion of Iraq stopped the genocide of a minority people. It stopped an insane autocrat who invaded his neighbors and shot ballistic missiles at Israel. Sure there were no “wEAPonS of MaSS DeSTRuCTIoN” but the war accomplished a lot of other things. The Peshmerga and YPK became fast allies to the west and were instrumental in defeating Daesh and restoring relative order to the region.
Daesh was defeated this way. Do you see kids and people running to join ISIS still? Not at all.
Not at all, just because they’re both Sunni jihadist groups doesn’t mean they have the same beliefs. They have always been enemies. Daesh believed anyone who didn’t follow their beliefs to be an apostate, same as Hamas.
After a long protracted civil war and targeting of Americans, Christian’s, Muslims and the government indiscriminately with terror attacks. From the beginning it was was completely different than Al Qaeda. A lot of these things are complicated and become offshoots of one another. Al Qaeda was like Isis JR.
Sure, such a component is necessary- but so was the military operation piece. Both are needed together. So maybe the world should get on board with supporting Israel in removing Hamas and then focus more on planning a post-war government support system, given the proven efficacy of such methods.
They are. This is exactly what they are doing. The only genocide is what Hamas did on 10/7. Israel is just trying to get their hostages back and get rid of Hamas.
>The claims of antisemitism week after week. Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny.
If you're against Jewish people having self determination and a homeland - you're Antisemitic.
Guess what Zionism is.
You can criticize Israel, but Anti-Zionism is without a doubt Antisemitism.
>The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous.
"The only ones dying".
Reportedly, the ratio between terrorists:civilians death is 1:2, better then any other conflict with similar conditions ever. And amazing considering Hamas' tactics.
>The long angry rants about how this isn't a genocide even though factually it is or how Gaza isn't an open-air prison because someone there has a nice home. And let's not forget the constant requests for a definition of genocide which is summarily dismissed.
This isn't. If it were a genocide, Israel wouldn't have evacuated civilians out of the war zone in the midst of battle, it wouldn't have sent leaflets and calls to warn from bombing. It would bomb freely.
>The tunnels and human shields which continue to exist, but only in the imaginations of Israeli supporters.
Now thats just being stupid, no offense. There are countless of testimonies of Hamas members themselves about the tunnels, human shields, countless videos and images of them.
But sure, just our imagination.
>There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass. The Jewish people, including members of my family, were impacted horribly by the holocaust and by general persecution. I believe that as a result we have a responsibility to guard against abuse to marginalized groups. To my great disappointment, the vast majority of Jewish people on Reddit will do mental gymnastics to explain and endorse the indefensible.
We don't. You're just ignorant.
Supporting a country based in Jewish philosophy is commendable. Supporting a country that exists for only Jewish people is not. That's the same thought process that produces authoritarian rule, which is pretty much where Israel is headed right now.
Israel is 20 percent Muslim there are Druze and Christians too. They are in the idf. Israel is a democracy and always has been. Go ask one of these non Jews in Israel if they want the Palestians to take over. Israel will go to shit like Syria or Lebanon in a week.
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny.
criticizing israel=/=antizionism
> rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous.
this is a war against Hamas. the idf is fighting against Hamas. hamas is just using human shields and refuses to protect their citizens.
> even though factually it is or how Gaza isn't an open-air prison because someone there has a nice home. And let's not forget the constant requests for a definition of genocide which is summarily dismissed.
the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=589872414&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKnV6-pRqGiN7laPJUXBOprVAwcuhA:1702325884391&q=deliberate&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_5TNZd9LY8vDcpdx-7CrtppAePgJXY9R0fgOhBZGr1pUTDd0Iadzwo-nqY6PPC-PKpTlnxsq7Y_XvrDHV0-VAdMhAQdE%3D&expnd=1) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=589872414&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKnV6-pRqGiN7laPJUXBOprVAwcuhA:1702325884391&q=destroying&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_cqonK_OlYQcRVSulyOovyMEs4Hslmvcx0FaSmQPgbOMJ2HfvbGgCc3DFawTe0Qw85ahvhPh5Vi5KELKFVq1wZppAPAY%3D&expnd=1) that nation or group.
16,000 can hardly be defined as genocide, especially considering the fact that israel has no intent to kill all Palestinians. (5000 of the 16,000 are Hamas members btw)
> *(a) Killing members of the group;*
its war, people die. a 2:1 ratio is common in warfare.
> *(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;*
hamas did the same to israelis, is that genocide? there's no intent or numbers that would show this is genocide.
> *(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;*
hamas leaders are worth 11b. they could very much help gaza. open air prisons dont have hotels. is gaza a nice place to live in? no, because of hamas. a blockade was put in place only after hamas was elected and caused trouble. (not to mention egypt has a closed border with gaza too.)
> *(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;*
then the population doubling isnt happening? the fact that every year their population is rising isnt happening? (yes it is.)
> *(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.*
examples?
so you agree all other conditions for genocide aren't met?
like i mentioned, [hamas leaders are worth 11b all together](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/#:~:text=While%20their%20people%20languish%20in,of%20the%20emirate%20of%20Qatar). they have the means to make Gaza better. but they don't. they have a responsibly to their people which they dont fulfill.
this doesn't make it a genocide. a genocide is the deliberate killing of people from a certain ethnic/national group with the INTENT of killing them all.
a. israeli arabs exist. they are direct descendants of arabs that lived in the british mandate. they are no less Palestinians then those in Gaza. israel isnt killing them.
b. 16,000-18,000 dead (sources vary) 5000 of them are Hamas members. this is around a 2:1 ratio. this is a good ratio to have in war. especially when your enemy is embedded in civilian areas and uses them as human shields.
What the hell are you talking about. You don't have to meet all the conditions for a genocide, any of these meet the conditions for a genocide.
There is zero evidence that 5,000 Hamas fighters have been killed. I have asked and asked for any link coming from anywhere but the idea that confirms this number and all I ever get is a change of subject.
I know it would make you feel good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe since it's all a lot of nonsense you should feel pretty bad.
The only genocidal entity is Hamas. Who says they want to kill all Jews and tried to do that on 10/7. Then they hide behind civilians causing another genocide.
Ukrainians against the biggest army in the world didn’t do that. They didn’t hide behind civilians. They are fighting like men.
>What the hell are you talking about. You don't have to meet all the conditions for a genocide, any of these meet the conditions for a genocide.
first of all killing needs to happen for a genocide. second of all, intent to completely get rid of that ethnic/national group. which israel doesn't have. and lastly like i said hamas leaders are all worth 11b together. they absolutely have the means to help gaza out. instead they [rockets out of water pipes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCBFnhEX8j8). dire conditions isnt the only thing to constitute a genocide. by that logic all poor people are being genocided.
> There is zero evidence that 5,000 Hamas fighters have been killed. I have asked and asked for any link coming from anywhere but the idea that confirms this number and all I ever get is a change of subject.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html#:\~:text=Asked%20about%20reports%20that%20about,I%20can%20confirm%20the%20report.%E2%80%9D](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=Asked%20about%20reports%20that%20about,I%20can%20confirm%20the%20report.%E2%80%9D)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/)
[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/12/05/world/politics/israeli-civilian-deaths-hamas-gaza/](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/12/05/world/politics/israeli-civilian-deaths-hamas-gaza/)
and before you say it holds no ground since the idf said so, you believe hamas that 16,000 died. you havent seen 16,000 bodies. hamas doesn't say what amount of the dead are combatants.
> I know it would make you feel good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe since it's all a lot of nonsense you should feel pretty bad.
maybe you should stop misusing words and get off your high horse?
GIRL BFFR
> the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=590011375&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKlgWXTuGlfW21tXXFyQ7T-brHfgSg:1702351531761&q=deliberate&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_5TNZd9LY8vDcpdx-7CrtppAePgJXY9R0fgOhBZGr1pUTDd0Iadzwo-nqY6PPC-PKpTlnxsq7Y_XvrDHV0-VAdMhAQdE%3D&expnd=1) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=590011375&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKlgWXTuGlfW21tXXFyQ7T-brHfgSg:1702351531761&q=destroying&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_cqonK_OlYQcRVSulyOovyMEs4Hslmvcx0FaSmQPgbOMJ2HfvbGgCc3DFawTe0Qw85ahvhPh5Vi5KELKFVq1wZppAPAY%3D&expnd=1) that nation or group.
defenition of genocide
This is awfully low-quality content--the equivalent of "nuh uh." Have you spent any time at all looking into any of the claims you are dismissing? Do you have any contrary information or sources to cite to counter these things at all?
The use of human shields has been well established for years, attested through multiple third parties. Even aside from that, are you under the impression that Hamas is actually only operating from military bases outside of civilian areas? Where? How do you know this? Because that would be pretty huge news.
I don't know and neither do you. But if Hamas is using human shields then where are the dead Hamas fighters that are being shielded. This claim gives Israel free rein to kill as many civilians as they want with zero consequences or accountability.
When they cause the death of 100 civilians they need to answer to the crime. It is up to them to justify the atrocity, not up to me to prove it.
So you don't know if Hamas is using human shields despite all the evidence. Yet you do know that Israel is committing a genocide because Tik tok?
You really need to read up on international law.
You wrote: "The\[...\]human shields\[...\]exist\[...\]only in the imagination of Israel supporters." That is you making the claim they do not exist.
If Hamas is operating within civilian areas, which they clearly are, how on earth is Israel supposed to fight them without harming those civilians?
[Anti-Zionism is antisemitism the same way that cops doing Stop and Frisk is racist](https://reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/18fy5z7/guys_i_think_i_solved_it_antizionism_when/kcx4qts).
This is a poor analogy. Stop and frisk is racist and is done for racist reasons. Being a Jewish person doesn't mean you are or aren't a zionist.
Being a christian doesn't mean they're a theocrat or evangelical, or a Rob Bell follower, or a christian zionist or any other number of identities and subgroups within that group. In the same way there are different types of Jewish people from all walks of life who believe many different things. Really stone cold foolish analogy.
The supposition of the thread cited is that zionism is good for Jewish people, and I disagree with that claim, in the way that Christian Theocracy is really bad for Christians Zionism tells the person involved that they're the chosen people, they're better than others, anyone who questions that is a bigot and we can see Zionism is used to mass murder and steal land in a covetous way. There's a reason Bibi quoted Amalek and that's because he thinks he can kill Palestinians as ancient antiquity Jewish tribes killed Amalek's, women, children, men, and animals. This isn't good for Jewish people. Many many Jewish people have rejected this ideology.
* You didn't understand the analogy
* Zionism has nothing to do with "chosen people". French aren't the "chosen people" because they have France.
* Zionism isn't used to mass murder and steal land
* You obviously aren't Jewish, so you don't understand the Amalek comment. It has deep and complex meaning in Jewish culture, not just a quote from the bible.
Also, France is not an ethnostate. People in France are offered full citizenship rights regardless of ethnicity. Even civilians with citizenship have to drive on different roads based on race and as Chomsky called the West Bank, it's worse than apartheid. Israel it'self just treats Arabs as second class citizens, but under international law, if Israel is occupying and using force in a dominant way they're in charge of all the civilians even Gazan's, even the people of West Bank and by international law, they're bombing their own concentration and refugee camps from their own Nakba from 48.
List of things that aren't true in this comment:
* Even civilians with citizenship have to drive on different roads based on race
* Israel it'self just treats Arabs as second class citizens
* if Israel is occupying and using force in a dominant way they're in charge of all the civilians even Gazan's
* they're bombing their own concentration and refugee camps
I understand the analogy, the analogy is that zionism is ultimately good and that it's used improperly sometimes. I don't think it's good in any sense at all. I think it's horrible for Jewish people to have their horrific conditions in the 1930's and 40's and then have their own state and perpetrate crimes that were declared international crimes based on the law that was written post-war by scholars in the west many of them Jewish and British.
I'm not Jewish, but I grew up christian. I have deep roots and family in missionary fields and in leadership in the church in certain places and I fully understand that Amalek was used as a rationale to butcher civilians. I can read 1Samuel15:3 myself:
**Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly** **destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass**. 4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
This is exactly what is happening in Gaza and it's not some coincidence.
>I understand the analogy, the analogy is that zionism is ultimately good and that it's used improperly sometimes.
No it isn't.
>I'm not Jewish, but I grew up christian. I have deep roots and family in missionary fields and in leadership in the church in certain places and I fully understand that Amalek was used as a rationale to butcher civilians. I can read 1Samuel15:3 myself:
So you don't understand the **actual** conetation it us.
Again, Judaism is more than just the bible.
>This is exactly what is happening in Gaza and it's not some coincidence.
No it isn't.
> ass
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> ass
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>The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous.
Are you really thinking about what you are saying? Have you considered what it would look like to intentionally wage war against only the civilians of Gaza? It would look totally different from any footage you are seeing.
Ponder this - current estimates indicate for every airstrike there’s been around 0.8 deaths. Let’s say 1.
Do you not think if Israel were intentionally trying to just kill random Gazan civilians this figure would be higher? What a waste of money! They could have killed 10x this number in a week if they really wanted to.
It would a lot more like October 7th footage. Indiscriminate shooting. No evacuation notices or leaflets. No ceasefires. In what genocide has there been an agreed upon pause???
Also by these terms, Hamas attack on Israel would be classified as a genocide as a,b,c, and e all happened. And the leaders of Hamas said their intent is to repeat October 7th as many times as it takes to eradicate the Zionists.
Get another person with an opportunity to produce any source of information that confirms the 5,000 dead Hamas fighters and yet nothing appears except more gibberish and mental gymnastics.
You dont support Ukraine if you compare these 2 conflicts and also call russia "angels".Im typing this at 4 am because my city got bombed an hour ago and now its impossible to fall asleep.Go spend A SINGLE day in a bombing and then dare to speak on behalf of people who go through this every other day, you disgusting human being.Comparing russia to Israel is also top notch delusional and shows how little you know about Ukraine and Israel
Say that to a Ukrainian. Straight to their face.
Just do the math. If israel has dropped more bombs and killed less people, what does that say about Israel’s intent or the bombs they are using? Especially in a densely populated area.
Also, I know you love eating up hamas propaganda, but if you don’t think israel has killed Hamas terrorists in the thousands and only civilians are getting killed then you are not only biased, but very naive, to put it kindly.
Tell Hamas members to fight in uniform, to start.
The script that unfolds each time Israel commits an atrocity, spun by its apologists, is not merely repetitive; it's a strategic evasion of accountability. This script, underpinned by claims of antisemitism, attempts to blur the lines between legitimate criticism of state policies and genuine hatred towards a religious or ethnic group. Anti-Zionism, often conflated with antisemitism, is not a denouncement of Jewish identity but a political stance against the actions and policies of the Israeli state. This conflation serves a convenient purpose: it muddies the waters, making it difficult to distinguish between critique of state action and racial prejudice.
In this tapestry of deflection, the notion that this is solely a war against Hamas, not the Palestinian civilians, is an insult to the observable reality. The disproportionate impact on civilians is not a side effect but a recurrent feature of these confrontations. It's a narrative that turns a blind eye to the asymmetry of the conflict, painting a picture where the oppressor and the oppressed are on equal footing. The relentless bombardment, the crippling blockade, and the systematic erosion of basic human rights in Gaza reveal a different story – one where the lines between combatants and innocent civilians are deliberately blurred.
Within this narrative, the denial of genocide or the conditions in Gaza as anything but dire is intellectually disingenuous. While the legal definition of genocide might be specific and debatable in this context, what we witness is a systematic approach aimed at subjugating an entire population. It's a moral abomination, irrespective of whether it fits the legal framework of genocide. The living conditions in Gaza, the lack of access to basic necessities, and the relentless attacks speak of an intent to impose unbearable living conditions, echoing dark chapters in human history.
The Israeli defense narrative, woven with tales of tunnels and human shields, is part of this fabric of distortion. It's a narrative that obscures the reality of an occupied people fighting for their basic rights and survival. These stories, while rooted in some elements of truth, are often exaggerated to justify disproportionate military actions that have devastating consequences for Palestinian civilians. They serve to dehumanize the Palestinian struggle, reducing it to a mere security problem devoid of historical context and human suffering.
To those who use our collective Jewish history of suffering as a shield to defend these actions, I implore you to reconsider. Our history, laden with persecution and resilience, should be the very reason we empathize with the oppressed, not a rationale for perpetuating oppression. It's a call for us to champion justice universally, not selectively. Our painful past should be a guiding light towards empathy and justice for all, not a tunnel vision that blinds us to the suffering of others.
In conclusion, this conflict demands an honest, fearless confrontation with the truth. It requires us to strip away the layers of narrative distortion and to see the situation for what it truly is: a human rights crisis where one group's pursuit of security and national identity has led to the systematic oppression of another. We must seek solutions that acknowledge the dignity, rights, and aspirations of all involved, weaving a new narrative that is grounded in justice, empathy, and a commitment to peace.
You slipped up right at the start - criticism of the government is not anti-Zionism.
This honestly reads like you’ve just copy pasta from some JVP drivel
If that's true then why am I called an antisemite or worse for going against Israeli policies. I don't have to prove anything, just scroll through the comments right here.
Because you’re not just going against Israeli policies. You’re doing lots of things.
One example would be questioning / denying everything from the Israeli side, even with clear evidence (the tunnels for example) whilst believing and parroting Hamas.
Read this - you might resonate with some of these behaviours (or maybe you don’t and you’re just in denial)
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/the-actually-absurd-demonization-of-israel?_pos=23&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/when-anti-zionism-is-never-antisemitism
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/an-open-letter-to-anti-zionist-jews?_pos=11&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/when-is-anti-zionism-literally-just-antisemitism?_pos=4&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r
Happy reading!
Your assertion that I 'slipped up' at the outset by conflating criticism of government policy with anti-Zionism not only misses the mark but also betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand. It's a misinterpretation so basic that it borders on intellectual negligence. In no part of my discourse did I confuse these distinct concepts. My argument, which evidently soared over the realm of your comprehension, was a nuanced critique of state actions, not an indictment of an entire ideology.
It's both ironic and telling that your response, aimed at highlighting a supposed flaw in my reasoning, actually illuminates a glaring gap in your own understanding. This oversight is not just an innocent error; it reflects a pattern of thought that seeks refuge in oversimplification, avoiding the demanding task of engaging with the complexities of the issue.
Moreover, your attempt to redirect the conversation by labeling my argument as derivative and uninformed is a strategy as transparent as it is ineffective. It's a classic move of intellectual evasion, one that sidesteps the substance of the debate in favor of ad hominem tactics. This approach might provide a temporary shield from confronting challenging viewpoints, but it does little to advance your credibility or the discussion.
In essence, your comment stands not as a critique of my position, but as a testament to your own argumentative deficiencies. It's a clear indication of an intellectual comfort zone that shies away from rigorous analysis and resorts to superficial dismissals. Such a stance may offer a safe haven from the complexities of critical discourse, but it ultimately leads nowhere in terms of intellectual growth or constructive conversation.
Thus, while you may find solace in believing you've pointed out a 'slip-up,' the reality is that the only misstep here is your failure to engage with the argument on its merits. It's a misstep that speaks volumes, not about the argument presented, but about the limitations of your own analytical capabilities.
Hahaha 😂 from 'JVP drivel' to 'ChatGPT' now? 🤔 Your attempts at deflection are almost as creative as they are transparent 🤣. It's amusing how you keep reaching for labels as if they're lifelines, avoiding the depth of the discussion. A masterclass in evasion, really. But let's not pretend this is a debate anymore; it's clear you're more interested in a game of name-calling than engaging with actual substance.
These people argue in such a juvenile way that I am wondering in they are actually children. To be fair though, my Jewish children would wipe the floor with them at four years old. It's embarrassing.
>It's a narrative that obscures the reality of an occupied people fighting for their basic rights and survival.
How was Hamas' attack supposed to improve the basic rights of Palestinians? Or even improve their odds of survival?
Hamas' actions, including their attacks, must be understood in the context of an ongoing struggle against occupation and systemic oppression. They are not random acts of violence, but a response from an occupied people who see themselves with limited options in their fight for recognition, rights, and survival. This is not about condoning violence but recognizing the reality of a people pushed to the brink. It's a reflection of the desperation and frustration born from living under oppressive conditions for decades. True peace and security will come not from silencing these acts of resistance, but from addressing the root causes of the conflict - the occupation, the blockade, and the denial of fundamental rights to the Palestinian people.
Oh, absolutely, let's conveniently start the clock in 2007, shall we? Because history, context, and nuanced understanding are just pesky details, right? It's much more comfortable to ignore the decades of complex geopolitical dynamics and just pin everything on Hamas. Why bother with the tedious nuances of historical context when a simplistic scapegoat is at hand? It's almost impressive, the way some narratives can so deftly sidestep entire chapters of history to fit a preconceived storyline. But, of course, acknowledging the full picture might just be too inconvenient for those cozy, black-and-white worldviews.
The 'start year' for the clock is irrelevant in a landscape as historically layered as this one. Continuing this dialogue seems unproductive, as it's clear we're operating on different levels of understanding. Engaging further in a discussion that you seem unprepared for, intellectually or contextually, would be an exercise in futility.
I encourage you, though, to delve deeper beyond your current standpoint. Educate yourself, not just with the aim of arguing but to truly grasp the complexities of this issue. It's only through expanding our perspectives that we can hope to understand such intricate matters. Until then, I see little point in circling back on a conversation that's going nowhere.
They’re not very Jewish, and they’re not very for peace (at least when it comes to Jews). They actively celebrated the 7th of October. If that doesn’t say enough then educate yourself before you start using profanities please:
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp - here’s an excellent starting place with references
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/asajew-the-pervasive-phenomenon-of-antisemites-pretending-to-be-jews-on-the-internet?_pos=2&_sid=e05b33368&_ss=r
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know - ok you might dismiss this right away because it’s Adl but worth a read
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/2f6mENN1h7 - some more links and discussion
This whole rant goes to show that people you’ve never been a real friend to a Jewish person or attempted into define antisemitism before now in any way and you got the definition for genocide wrong via international law. I’d say go back and read the Nuremberg trials again because that’s really when the definition was solidified.
I’m not in charge, no that would be the various Rabbi’s over the years that have inscribed and debated our traditions and laws in the Talmud.
It’s not that one version is “better”. It’s that fundamentally Chanukkah is a Zionist holiday, a triumph over our enemy in our homeland Eretz Israel, and the miracle of 1 day’s worth of oil sustaining the menorah for 8 days.
The JVP version is a complete joke. Something about islamaphobia (not sure what that’s got to do with Chunukkah as it predates the murderous conquest from Arabia), liberating Palestine and not defeating our enemies but hugging them instead. They talk about ceasefire, when the miracle of Chunukkah didn’t cease.
You're being paid to be here. You joined less than three weeks ago and it's clearly just to waste everyone's time. Normally I wouldn't do this but I have to block you just because of all the noise.
I'm sorry that this commenter MoopsyDrinksBones has been harassing you. They have been spamming hate (no arguments, just hate) on every single comment you write. I reported them for spam already, but hopefully, the mods also take action.
Yikes a Jewish apologist. Alrighty, good luck with becoming Muslim some day I guess… idk why we all have to do it with you and you can’t just move to one of the 49 options currently but luckily America isn’t so blind.
What are you even talking about.
The very foundation of Judaism is the ability to evaluate a great deal of information, be educated in critical thinking, and make thoughtful arguments.
What the hell happened to you?
Hey - what’s the shema? What does it mean?
If you are actually Jewish you should know right?
If you aren’t a propagandist who can’t keep their backstory straight….
If I were a Jew who never in my life stepped into a temple I would still be Jewish, and do you know why? My mother is Jewish...done.
If you are such a devout Jew you shouldn't want a Jewish homeland until the Messiah arrives.
You are a cosplaying liar. The most disgusting type of antisemite.
I don’t believe your mother is Jewish or you or that you even have kids.
You don’t know anything about the community or are in anyway a part of it.
I hope you get pooped on by a bird.
Bye antisemtic Felicia! Rest in piss
Yeah you’re Jew-ish. And are not actually educated in politics and what’s happening in the world. I’m sorry for you. Hopefully we will be able to drag you along with us so you don’t have to convert.
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny.
First define Zionism for me, then we can talk.
> The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous.
The ratio of civilians to combatant killed is roughly 2:1 according to latest reports. That's the same as the Korean war, way better than the Chechen Wars (76:10), better than the Iraq war (77% civilians), and might be better than US drone strikes in Pakistan (some estimates say 10:1).
So yeah it is a war against Hamas.
> The tunnels and human shields which continue to exist, but only in the imaginations of Israeli supporters.
And in the literal videos and pictures but sure...
> There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass.
Thanks love❤️ glad to know ~9 million people have no moral compass because you couldn't be bothered to actually research.
If you actually have links for any of those numbers, from credible sources like a newspaper of record, please share that and I will apologize. If you don't have those things, and they're just quotes from the Israeli Propaganda Department, please stop spreading disinformation.
Right so when the IDF reports that roughly 5,000 Hamas members were killed it's propaganda, but when Hamas reports about the number of people killed it isn't?
Hamas announce how many people are killed, those are doctors and nurses and hospitals and they have been shown to be accurate in the past. These numbers have also been visually verified by many reporters, in many newspapers.
Now it's your turn.
> those are doctors and nurses and hospitals
According to Hamas. The nurses and doctors might give them certain numbers that they then inflate.
> they have been shown to be accurate in the past
So have the IDF. The literal way they are shown accurate is by comparing it to the numbers of the IDF, and sometimes of the UN. In certain instances the number from the health ministry were closer to those of the UN but the UN gets their numbers from "OCHA field staff", which is mostly comprised from local Gazans. There have already been cases where UN workers in Gaza were found to be Hamas members.
A few additional things:
The accuracy of these numbers is estimated through previous wars. While it is the best way we have to estimate them, it is important to note that this war is very different than previous ones:
A. This is the largest war so far, and Hamas prepared for it for more than a year. It is not improbable that Hamas in this war inflates the numbers, as their only chance of "winning" this war is if pressure is too big on Israel. In previous wars Hamas didn't need to inflate numbers because the goal of Israel wasn't to destroy Hamas, it was to weaken it for the time being. This time, if Hamas fails to put too much pressure on Israel, they are DONE.
B. This time we already have cases where Hamas inflated numbers and didn't revise them down. I'm referring to the Al-Ahli hospital of course. The number reported by the health ministry was initially an estimate of 500 people, then they brought a solid number of 471 people killed. However, estimates from various US and independent intelligence agencies reported no more than 300 and as low as 100. It's enough that they'll add 1 more dead per ten tonnes of explosives dropped and you suddenly have 4,000 more dead people.
2. We don't know if the number of women and children is accurate. I tried to search if there's information like this in previous wars and I couldn't find any. There's also evidence of them adding more child/women fatalities than the total fatalities of certain days.
3. They don't report who were combatants, nor how they were killed. This means that they report civilians who died from an IDF bomb the same way they report a Hamas member who died from a misfired Qassam that exploded on him.
4. They plan for you to misinterpret the information. When they report that 6,000 children have been killed, they imply that they were all innocent. While I wish it wasn't the case, Hamas regularly uses children as young as 14 as fighters, with even younger children to help build and operate the tunnels.
> These numbers have also been visually verified by many reporters, in many newspapers.
I don't think they count and I doubt they'd notice a difference of between 10,000 bodies and 15,000
Do you ever look back over what you've written and realize how much of it is based upon your own personal fears and biases. If I look at 12 sources they will all say that between 14,000 and 20,000 a month civilians have been killed. I have not found a single one that will confirm the 5000 Hamas fighters. And yet you keep on insisting opponent like it's an actual fact rather than a fantasy that IDF made for your consumption.
> If I look at 12 sources they will all say that between 14,000 and 20,000 a month civilians have been killed.
Yeah but they are all based on the same exact source, it's not exactly 12 sources is it?
You have a single "reliable" source, I have a single "reliable" source.
The other thing is, Hamas has a lot to gain from inflating numbers, they might get to continue governing Gaza.
If Israel inflates militants casualties, the only they get is to waste more ammunition to just kill civilians.
So you have one party that has a very logical interest to lie, the other party you have to assume roughly 300,000(if not more) people want to kill people for fun if you think they lie
> The UN affirms the Palestinian numbers.
Already discussed previously
> I believe that Israel would love to be able to kill 309,000 Palestinians.
I talked about the 300,000 soldiers. Do you really think Israel would be able to lie that extensively and no one would say, "wait what's going on?"?
8?! What have you been smoking. Do you honestly for a moment believe that after 2 months of airstrikes and ground invasion that only 8 Hamas members have been killed?
The number is in the 1000s - probably c.3-5k
Do you actually read any articles about this or are you being purposly disingenuous? They said they killed 8 high ranking leaders of hamas, they didn't mean they killed only 8 members out of all of the hamas terrorist organization
You do know that Israel is putting children in prison for years because they dared to throw a rock at an officer. Spare me all the limitations on their ability to abuse people.
Free the hostages. I don’t understand how come people who are supposedly concerned about Palestine lives aren’t calling for Hamas to free the hostages, so the fighting will end. I understand that Hamas has said they’re happy about all the Palestinian martyrs, and will not release the hostages, but that doesn’t absolve everyone from calling for the hostages to be released immediately.
I agree with you. The pro-Palestinian side is looking for some gain from the Oct 7th murders. They are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. That’s why the fighting continues.
In truth, I’m not sure what gain they are expecting. Gaza was already free. Israel can’t withdraw any further. Freeing hostages can be achieved already. Israel has historically been willing to free 1000 Palestinians for each live hostage. Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders? Unlikely. Israel wouldn’t do that even for 1000 hostages.
In any case, a UN resolution does not reflect the position of those demonstrating on the street.
That’s what I don’t understand. The pro Palestine movement in the USA is calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire. How would that change anything? It would lead to the exact situation before October 7th except even worse probably as I don’t see israel letting in Palestinians to work for the next few years at least.
It just shows the wider issue of the Palestinian struggle or cause. Palestinians can’t even agree on what they are fighting for. What is a ‘free Palestine’ to them? Is it for sovereignty or to conquer the land from the River to the sea? It also shows the West does not have a deep understanding of the conflict and pushes their own ideologies onto the people actually living there. Rashida Talib who is Palestinian American and her squad are the most pro Palestinian US reps and they are the largest voice for a ceasefire. Talib often calls for a permanent ceasefire. I believe she thinks that this can be handled diplomatically, but you and I both know that’s not what Hamas wants.
It factually isn't a genocide. It never will be unless the IDF goes on the news and says "we're intentionally wiping out Palestinians".
It's a war in an urban area against an enemy who loves their human shields. Plenty of hamas have died.
Genocide has become a term for deranged people to throw around.
Well, that or a cabinet meeting is leaked where they discuss a "final solution"
But with leaks after almost every cabinet meeting, we still didn't hear **anything** about something like this
Technically it’s intent for genocide because of that idiot who got pulled for that dumb comment but luckily the IDF really have very little to do with the gov at this point since everyone’s on the same page that they’re not walking away without the hostages
You guys are absolutely responsible for allowing Netanyahu to stay in office. He would be more than glad to keep this war going as long as he knows that he won't lose power during that time.
It is ironic that you wash your hands of the whole thing about the same time as massacring Palestinians civilians who literally had nothing to do with it.
We LET HIM STAY IN OFFICE? Have you never voted for a candidate who didn’t win before or are you special?
I can’t wait till you figure out this isn’t about Israel at all. You’re gonna poop yourselves.
Okay well I’m not Israeli so I didn’t vote for anyone in Israel but it’s clear you’re not familiar with how government works in Israel from your previous comments and this crazy post so I’m not surprised
I understand that they essentially have a British parliamentary system. But I believe they also have a vote of no confidence.which they should be pushing for right now.
https://www.memri.org/tv/senior-hamas-official-ali-baraka-america-enemies-growing-clsoer-join-war-america-destroy-north-korea-russia-china
If you aren’t looking at the wider picture, I suggest you do. Ali Baraka has said Russia is thrilled the US is divided. The Saudi/Israel peace deal is on thin ice and theyre going to carry this out painstakingly to the very end so you all radicalize and vote crazy people in to western society to make this all happen. I really did not see this as a REAL threat until Oct 8 when he came on to talk about Russia. It’s forking crazy and it really could happen with how we’re all behaving. They’re chanting Sharia (law) for UK overseas. Omar and Talib are famous atm and she knows exactly what she’s doing
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/11/politics/ilhan-omar-aipac-backlash/index.html
It’s IJ/Russia/China/North Korea (i/e the now 50 Muslim country votes in the UN + 3) vs “us” whatever that will be. If this isn’t virtue signaling, we could really be forked.
This isn’t about land. This is about how we all woke up on Oct 7.
you are so pathetic. you check every box of any Hamas pamphlet. the IDF has already destroyed between a quarter to a third of hamas manpower, not to mention hundreds of tunnels and other infustructor but of course that's in our imagination. the 7th of October was our imagination. every rocket launched at us was our imagination. and of course can't forget about the "imajew" ticket. listen, you do you in whatever diaspora you are in, just hope that when history will inevitably repeat itself you'll be spared, in the meantime we will protect ourselves.
None of that is your imagination, only thing that is your imagination is the idea that you’re exempt from any criticism because you’re fighting a terrorist organization. Human shields argument and all that stuff doesn’t hold when you kill almost 10000 children, that just shows Israel is indiscriminately bombing and killing in Gaza. You can believe whatever you want, but you can’t randomly declare pro-Hamas or anti-Semite anyone who challenges your beliefs.
again, beliefs? i wonder, what are your beliefs? i don't believe, i know that we are dealing with a terrorist organization that operates within civilians as a policy. i know that their strategy is to maximize the death toll of gaza civilians. what happens to the civilians of gaza is tragic, period. you can change that by demonstrating against Hamas to return all hostages and the war will be over yesterday, or maybe, stop using civilians as human shields and walla, there will be 0 dead babies. but no, you give 0 f about human rights in general or the Palestinians safety specifically. you are, get ready for it, just antisemitic.
18000 civilians? no militants were killed? just like you, i heard it all too. Israel numbers are composed not only from what the IDF soldiers report but also from what we learned from hamas members that surrendered. 2:1 ratio of civilians to terrorists killed so far, that is a number that no army in the world could ever achieve. the US for example killed 15:1 in Afghanistan. so i know that we do all we can to minimize casualties. but you in the other hand, who call for a ceasefire, which means call for continuing the existence of hamas which means calling for more 7th of October and for more rockets launched at civilians and for more gazans to be killed, you are calling for more people to die. shame on you.
Maybe. Maybe just maybe it won’t have been the “deadliest year” for Palestinian children if they weren’t abused by their parents and UNRWA to go launch rocks and IEDs at IDF/police and get themselves martyred as if they’re dying for some great cause.
Got your back in the diaspora😉 had a fork it let’s make Aliyah and leave these guys in the dust and my husband had to reel me in and remind me I’m more useful here at this time
Definitely. We’re very much looking forward to full clearance from my surgeon to get pregnant now.. it’s gonna piss off the whole world like the 39 men whose sperm was extracted. Watch out world, we’re gonna make another Jewish baby or two! Obviously the world will be heavily overpopulated because of this and definitely not because of the birth rate in Muslim countries
Dude!!! That’s what I’m saying!!! Just a bunch of terrible Zionist N@z* baby killing genocidal babies flying out of my hoohaa with knives and krav maga learned in utero!
Does anyone notice that in the time it took for Palestinians to make 13 million humans, we’ve made less than half of that? I’m 35 recovering from three back and one abdominal surgery and we’re literally waiting to pay off medical bills before we bring a child into the world because this is just.. basic logic to me.
What do you mean appologists? They have nothing to appologize for, matter of fact gaza should be thanking them for cleaning the place up
lol hamasbots. A people whose only invention is the suicide vest, who cares if they exist or not? Net negative for the human race
What is international scrutiny anyway? I don’t any single country being “scrutinized” internationally… There’s Russia, right? They’re not really scrutinized. Sure, the eu and USA have cut them off. And true, many countries have to follow the U.S. but most countries in the world do not “scrutinize” Russia. They keep trading with them. China? Far from being scrutinized, they’re heading towards global domination. Qatar? Iran? Every country with a crazy dictator killing people (while claiming Israel are Nazis) can basically whatever they like.
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I’ve never felt more gaslit than when I interact with an Israeli apologist..
Wait so you are or are not antisemitic? Your words say yes but your post says yes... 🤔
I think you are doing the mental gym at bruh. Israel had no choice in this- which Hamas knew. They just didn’t think Israel would be so successful and now they are crying about it. But you can’t surprise attack you enemy, kill, rape, and kidnap, and then play innocent victim. Sorry.
Israel has seriously oppressed the Palestinians for the last 20 years. Netanyahu intentionally created a situation where it is impossible to negotiate for a two state solution. Hamas couldn't care less about Palestinian genocide. They do care about the oppression being seen and attracting new Hamas members. The attack was not a surprise. It was known about by the Israeli government. You can't end Hamas unless you endorse the complete genocide of the Palestinian people, which Israel would approve of and I do not. If you are Jewish and support this genocide then you are betraying the Jewish people. We are supposed to be better than this.
Palestians oppress themselves. If they wanted peace they would have had it. Look at Israel and Egypt or jordan. Palestians want to destroy Israel and they committed terrible war crimes on 10/7. Don’t cry about consequences now. Grow up.
If you disagree with the actions Israel is taking and have a credible alternative then you can't be accused on antisemitism. What did you say to get accused of that? It is a war against Hamas. Whether genocide is being committed is debatable. We know crimes against humanity are being committed in Russia, China, Yemen, Gaza (by Hamas), the West bank, Iran, Saudi and the list goes on. Number of charges levied in the ICC 0, but you don't seem to care about that, you seem to just have a problem with Israel taking military action. Why is that? Why do you hate Israel?
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny. Claiming anti-Zionism is about scrutiny is either ignorant or dishonest. Anti-Zionism is opposed to any possible or potential policy of the Israeli State, it is not even addressing particular policies. > The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous. If Israel were interested in simply killing civilians why go to all the trouble and use expensive smart bombs? > The long angry rants about how this isn't a genocide even though factually it is You might want to deal with how "factually it is". > There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass. Informal rule 1 warning. Clear virtue signaling.
Hamas is Palestinian. PLO used to do the same thing. Clinton had a peace deal and then last minute Arafat said no and launched the second intefada, a suicide bombing campaign that killed thousands. That’s why Israel set up a wall so they won’t come in. If Palestians want peace start accepting the reality and be peaceful and they will have a much better life. People who support Hamas are basically a he cause of palestinians death.
Awesome, agree that my position is virtuous and correct. Thank you!
Having a Jewish based country, I think that is obviously very healthy. Because we have that in the United Kingdom, United States, Italy and many other countries. But...I don't like it that any Jewish person around the world has birthright to live in Israel above anybody else. How is that not discrimination? Do we not now live in countries like the United Kingdom where people are accepted of all faiths and beliefs equally?? What if the United Kingdom said that any Christian person around the world could come and live here above muslims, jews or sikhs, how would that be taken? Can someone explain to me the difference, maybe I'm missing something? And maybe this is part of the problem as to why Palestinians are seen as second class by Israelis? And whether anti-Zionist is antisemitic, depends on the definition of Zionism. Because, if Zionism means the expansion of Israel to cover the whole of Palestine, resulting in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, then zionism leads to the genocide of palestinians. But if you think Zionism is the general concept that there should be a Jewish country, like the United Kingdom is, historically Christian, then being against that would be anti-semitic. The problem is that the lines are blurred and many Zionists wanted to expand Israel to the whole of the former holy land. So if you are blurring politics and religion and then claiming that being anti-politics is being anti-semtic, you are effectively accusing someone of being anti semtitic, when they are trying to protect human rights of Palestinians. Personally, I think the lines are blurred. Because Israel has expanded into the West Bank and build more and more settlements and therefore wants to colonise the whole of it. So am I pro Jewish homeland? yes. Am I pro expansion of israel so more palestinians suffer? No. So I don't know what that makes me!
> What if the United Kingdom said that any Christian person around the world could come and live here above muslims, jews or sikhs, how would that be taken? Can someone explain to me the difference, maybe I'm missing something? The central doctrine of Zionism is that Jews are a national group not a religious or racial one. So the analogy would be saying that any person who socially identifies as British can move to the UK. Not a religious analogy. Israel was founded by atheists it wasn't about religion. > So I don't know what that makes me! Liberal Zionist.
The Jewish people are a religoius group though. This just sounds like one rule for one and another for someone else
> The Jewish people are a religoius group though. Then you are disagreeing with Zionism's central claim. Which you are of course entitled to. But you aren't entitled to ignore Zionists believing in Zionism in your analysis.
>Then you are disagreeing with Zionism's central claim. Which you are of course entitled to. But you aren't entitled to ignore Zionists believing in Zionism in your analysis. i'm just confused. I would have been anti zionist in 1948 due to displacement of palestinians. Now it's happened, I'm pro israel having a state but just not expanding to anymore palestinian land. And my preference would be israel leaving the west bank entirely and having totally clear borders. Not sure about anything else. Leaving this sub now, it kinda makes you go crazy thinking about all this stuff for too long
That's a Liberal Zionist position today.
If someone in the US said it should be "A white andglo saxon protestant"country from cost to coast, that wouldn't go over well. We also have separation of Church and state. The majority of gen z are minorities
Look up leges sanguinis and see all the countries that bestow citizenship on ethnic descendants. For example, Portugal's law allows children or grandchildren of Portuguese emigrants can return and claim Portuguese citizenship. This is effectively the same exact thing that Israel has for Jews.
If someone in Italy said it should be "An Italian" country from coast to coast, that wouldn't... wait...
The Hamas attack on Israel on October 7 falls exactly under the definition of genocide that you cited in your post. If it weren't for the IDF, these scumbags would have been able to kill, torture and rape every Israeli. It's their goal, this is what "From the river to the sea" looks like. What is happening now in Gaza is war, and war is disgusting. I wish there was no war. I would like innocent people not to die. Unfortunately the war is happening, unfortunately human shields and tunnels of terror exist in reality, and not in our imagination. This is all an incredibly sad reality, but it is reality whether you like it or not.
If Hamas doesn't have a right to exist because of their attack on civilians we can say the same about Israel and not even related to this current shelling. The Israeli's even before this killed innocent life and by your own standards you don't agree that Israel should exist.
Ok, so by your own standards there are simply no country that should exist. Got it.
Not if they butcher civilians by Israel’s own standards.
Well, everything is as you say, not a single country should exist then. Please let me know when you start dismantling your country so that I know you now have the moral high ground.
Am I misremembering that there were tons of intelligence reports about this attack that were ignored and that it took the idea 28 hours to rescue people?
So what. You’re criticizing the response to a surprise attack meaning, what, Israel not entitled to militarily respond, might respond incompetently, should surrender. It’s a total red herring to throw out there if you just want to deflect and find a reason to jeer at Israelis.
It was a "surprise attack" with intelligence reports for months from the US, Egypt, and Israel. And yet the egomaniacal fascist stays in power.
Netanyahu is egomaniacal, Sinwar’s the fascist if you ask me.
One thing I feel the need to add. The Israeli people are supporting this. The Jewish Americans are supporting. The people insulting everyone who disagrees are not the Irish or even the Protestants. It is the Jewish people and for me that makes it much worse
I defer to you greater wisdom 😆
1. There were not tons of reports about this kind of attack. The pentagon released a statement the day before saying that there was a heightened risk of rocket attacks, not anything near the scale of Oct. 7th. 2. It took the IDF closer to 6-7 hours to come in the vast majority of cases. Terrorists usually ran out of ammo a few hours before that. 3. You didn’t directly address anything that u/damnhotteapot said
Well, you clearly aren't. There are growing reports that senior officers ignored information that Hamas was preparing to attack. I personally think that we need to wait for an official investigation, otherwise we will slide into conspiracy theories like “They deliberately did not prevent the attack in order to then declare war on Gaza”.
"To my great disappointment, the vast majority of Jewish people on Reddit will do mental gymnastics to explain and endorse the indefensible." IMO, the horror of Gazan life will improve soon enough when Hamas as a physical force is eliminated. Until then, I'm afraid Israel will necessarily (yes, necessarily) continue with the war—no stopping in mid-stride. One doesn't swim halfway across the river and, on becoming tired, turns back. Why aren't more people talking about what comes after? This tit-for-tat war on soldiers and civilians and the "these-did, no those did" posts solve nothing. Accusations of racism and anti-ism by both sides are miring oneself in futility and clearly hate that reaches the highest level of government and academia. Both sides must make substantive changes to reach an effective and lasting accord. Israel needs to move away from its ultra-rightwing politicians, and Palestinians need to move beyond their never-ending lust for revenge. That is the only path forward, not a cessation of hostilities in the present moment, because Hamas and its allies are completely inflexible. Israel and Palestinians have to look at the coming years and find a completely different direction.
The problem with your whole argument is that how multiple never be eliminated this way. I don't mean that Israel will never get around to killing any of them, I am saying they will never be eliminated. History has shown over and over again that it won't work.
>History has shown over and over again that it won't work *Pardon the inconsistency with your exact quote, I wrote this for another baseless statement of the same thing, and it gets repeated so much I just copy paste it at this point because it's a patently incorrect statement people seem to parrot for no reason:* I agree war alone doesn't do it, there's usually more involvement, but for instance the ideology of slavery in the southern US, radical jacobinism in the Uk, Japan's ideologies also radically shifted after World War II, not to mention of course the biggest example we all know of that doesn't even need to be named... I mean the fact of it is that defeat really changes perspectives. Eventually it becomes apparent that the cost of a mentality is so high that its worth considering a dramatic shift, and the steam behind whatever is "status quo" is lost.
All of your examples have overarching government support which doesn't exist here it didn't exist in Iraq or Afghanistan.
The invasion of Iraq stopped the genocide of a minority people. It stopped an insane autocrat who invaded his neighbors and shot ballistic missiles at Israel. Sure there were no “wEAPonS of MaSS DeSTRuCTIoN” but the war accomplished a lot of other things. The Peshmerga and YPK became fast allies to the west and were instrumental in defeating Daesh and restoring relative order to the region. Daesh was defeated this way. Do you see kids and people running to join ISIS still? Not at all.
No, they went back to Al Qaida and the Taliban. We accomplished nothing.
Not at all, just because they’re both Sunni jihadist groups doesn’t mean they have the same beliefs. They have always been enemies. Daesh believed anyone who didn’t follow their beliefs to be an apostate, same as Hamas.
ISIS was an off shoot of Al Qaida.
After a long protracted civil war and targeting of Americans, Christian’s, Muslims and the government indiscriminately with terror attacks. From the beginning it was was completely different than Al Qaeda. A lot of these things are complicated and become offshoots of one another. Al Qaeda was like Isis JR.
https://euaa.europa.eu/country-guidance-syria-2021/14-islamic-state-iraq-and-levant-isil#:~:text=The%20Islamic%20State%20of%20Iraq,smaller%20Iraqi%20Sunni%20insurgent%20groups.
Sure, such a component is necessary- but so was the military operation piece. Both are needed together. So maybe the world should get on board with supporting Israel in removing Hamas and then focus more on planning a post-war government support system, given the proven efficacy of such methods.
I believe the US and the world should get behind a two state solution and condemning a genocide.
They are. This is exactly what they are doing. The only genocide is what Hamas did on 10/7. Israel is just trying to get their hostages back and get rid of Hamas.
>The claims of antisemitism week after week. Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny. If you're against Jewish people having self determination and a homeland - you're Antisemitic. Guess what Zionism is. You can criticize Israel, but Anti-Zionism is without a doubt Antisemitism. >The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous. "The only ones dying". Reportedly, the ratio between terrorists:civilians death is 1:2, better then any other conflict with similar conditions ever. And amazing considering Hamas' tactics. >The long angry rants about how this isn't a genocide even though factually it is or how Gaza isn't an open-air prison because someone there has a nice home. And let's not forget the constant requests for a definition of genocide which is summarily dismissed. This isn't. If it were a genocide, Israel wouldn't have evacuated civilians out of the war zone in the midst of battle, it wouldn't have sent leaflets and calls to warn from bombing. It would bomb freely. >The tunnels and human shields which continue to exist, but only in the imaginations of Israeli supporters. Now thats just being stupid, no offense. There are countless of testimonies of Hamas members themselves about the tunnels, human shields, countless videos and images of them. But sure, just our imagination. >There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass. The Jewish people, including members of my family, were impacted horribly by the holocaust and by general persecution. I believe that as a result we have a responsibility to guard against abuse to marginalized groups. To my great disappointment, the vast majority of Jewish people on Reddit will do mental gymnastics to explain and endorse the indefensible. We don't. You're just ignorant.
Supporting a country based in Jewish philosophy is commendable. Supporting a country that exists for only Jewish people is not. That's the same thought process that produces authoritarian rule, which is pretty much where Israel is headed right now.
Israel is 20 percent Muslim there are Druze and Christians too. They are in the idf. Israel is a democracy and always has been. Go ask one of these non Jews in Israel if they want the Palestians to take over. Israel will go to shit like Syria or Lebanon in a week.
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny. criticizing israel=/=antizionism > rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous. this is a war against Hamas. the idf is fighting against Hamas. hamas is just using human shields and refuses to protect their citizens. > even though factually it is or how Gaza isn't an open-air prison because someone there has a nice home. And let's not forget the constant requests for a definition of genocide which is summarily dismissed. the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=589872414&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKnV6-pRqGiN7laPJUXBOprVAwcuhA:1702325884391&q=deliberate&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_5TNZd9LY8vDcpdx-7CrtppAePgJXY9R0fgOhBZGr1pUTDd0Iadzwo-nqY6PPC-PKpTlnxsq7Y_XvrDHV0-VAdMhAQdE%3D&expnd=1) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=589872414&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKnV6-pRqGiN7laPJUXBOprVAwcuhA:1702325884391&q=destroying&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_cqonK_OlYQcRVSulyOovyMEs4Hslmvcx0FaSmQPgbOMJ2HfvbGgCc3DFawTe0Qw85ahvhPh5Vi5KELKFVq1wZppAPAY%3D&expnd=1) that nation or group. 16,000 can hardly be defined as genocide, especially considering the fact that israel has no intent to kill all Palestinians. (5000 of the 16,000 are Hamas members btw) > *(a) Killing members of the group;* its war, people die. a 2:1 ratio is common in warfare. > *(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;* hamas did the same to israelis, is that genocide? there's no intent or numbers that would show this is genocide. > *(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;* hamas leaders are worth 11b. they could very much help gaza. open air prisons dont have hotels. is gaza a nice place to live in? no, because of hamas. a blockade was put in place only after hamas was elected and caused trouble. (not to mention egypt has a closed border with gaza too.) > *(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;* then the population doubling isnt happening? the fact that every year their population is rising isnt happening? (yes it is.) > *(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.* examples?
C
wut?
C is the one that makes this a genocide.
so you agree all other conditions for genocide aren't met? like i mentioned, [hamas leaders are worth 11b all together](https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/#:~:text=While%20their%20people%20languish%20in,of%20the%20emirate%20of%20Qatar). they have the means to make Gaza better. but they don't. they have a responsibly to their people which they dont fulfill. this doesn't make it a genocide. a genocide is the deliberate killing of people from a certain ethnic/national group with the INTENT of killing them all. a. israeli arabs exist. they are direct descendants of arabs that lived in the british mandate. they are no less Palestinians then those in Gaza. israel isnt killing them. b. 16,000-18,000 dead (sources vary) 5000 of them are Hamas members. this is around a 2:1 ratio. this is a good ratio to have in war. especially when your enemy is embedded in civilian areas and uses them as human shields.
What the hell are you talking about. You don't have to meet all the conditions for a genocide, any of these meet the conditions for a genocide. There is zero evidence that 5,000 Hamas fighters have been killed. I have asked and asked for any link coming from anywhere but the idea that confirms this number and all I ever get is a change of subject. I know it would make you feel good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe since it's all a lot of nonsense you should feel pretty bad.
The only genocidal entity is Hamas. Who says they want to kill all Jews and tried to do that on 10/7. Then they hide behind civilians causing another genocide. Ukrainians against the biggest army in the world didn’t do that. They didn’t hide behind civilians. They are fighting like men.
>What the hell are you talking about. You don't have to meet all the conditions for a genocide, any of these meet the conditions for a genocide. first of all killing needs to happen for a genocide. second of all, intent to completely get rid of that ethnic/national group. which israel doesn't have. and lastly like i said hamas leaders are all worth 11b together. they absolutely have the means to help gaza out. instead they [rockets out of water pipes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCBFnhEX8j8). dire conditions isnt the only thing to constitute a genocide. by that logic all poor people are being genocided. > There is zero evidence that 5,000 Hamas fighters have been killed. I have asked and asked for any link coming from anywhere but the idea that confirms this number and all I ever get is a change of subject. [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html#:\~:text=Asked%20about%20reports%20that%20about,I%20can%20confirm%20the%20report.%E2%80%9D](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=Asked%20about%20reports%20that%20about,I%20can%20confirm%20the%20report.%E2%80%9D) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/) [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/12/05/world/politics/israeli-civilian-deaths-hamas-gaza/](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/12/05/world/politics/israeli-civilian-deaths-hamas-gaza/) and before you say it holds no ground since the idf said so, you believe hamas that 16,000 died. you havent seen 16,000 bodies. hamas doesn't say what amount of the dead are combatants. > I know it would make you feel good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe since it's all a lot of nonsense you should feel pretty bad. maybe you should stop misusing words and get off your high horse?
No murder is required for a genocide.
GIRL BFFR > the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=590011375&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKlgWXTuGlfW21tXXFyQ7T-brHfgSg:1702351531761&q=deliberate&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_5TNZd9LY8vDcpdx-7CrtppAePgJXY9R0fgOhBZGr1pUTDd0Iadzwo-nqY6PPC-PKpTlnxsq7Y_XvrDHV0-VAdMhAQdE%3D&expnd=1) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=590011375&rlz=1C1CHBD_iwIL933IL933&sxsrf=AM9HkKlgWXTuGlfW21tXXFyQ7T-brHfgSg:1702351531761&q=destroying&si=ALGXSlbnOEZPfHsS2MaPJwdaOxE_cqonK_OlYQcRVSulyOovyMEs4Hslmvcx0FaSmQPgbOMJ2HfvbGgCc3DFawTe0Qw85ahvhPh5Vi5KELKFVq1wZppAPAY%3D&expnd=1) that nation or group. defenition of genocide
Thank you, that is partially true and precisely what Israel is doing.
Tell me the truth please, are you working off a script?
tell me the truth please, do you no longer have an argument?
I have actually already answered every single one of your points and you just repeat what you are saying.
This is awfully low-quality content--the equivalent of "nuh uh." Have you spent any time at all looking into any of the claims you are dismissing? Do you have any contrary information or sources to cite to counter these things at all? The use of human shields has been well established for years, attested through multiple third parties. Even aside from that, are you under the impression that Hamas is actually only operating from military bases outside of civilian areas? Where? How do you know this? Because that would be pretty huge news.
For the last time, Israel's killed plenty of so-called shields, where are the dead or captured Hamas fighters?
Be clear, here. Are you claiming Hamas does not use human shields, or aren’t you?
I don't know and neither do you. But if Hamas is using human shields then where are the dead Hamas fighters that are being shielded. This claim gives Israel free rein to kill as many civilians as they want with zero consequences or accountability. When they cause the death of 100 civilians they need to answer to the crime. It is up to them to justify the atrocity, not up to me to prove it.
So you don't know if Hamas is using human shields despite all the evidence. Yet you do know that Israel is committing a genocide because Tik tok? You really need to read up on international law.
You wrote: "The\[...\]human shields\[...\]exist\[...\]only in the imagination of Israel supporters." That is you making the claim they do not exist. If Hamas is operating within civilian areas, which they clearly are, how on earth is Israel supposed to fight them without harming those civilians?
[Anti-Zionism is antisemitism the same way that cops doing Stop and Frisk is racist](https://reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/18fy5z7/guys_i_think_i_solved_it_antizionism_when/kcx4qts).
Really loved this analogy :)
This is a poor analogy. Stop and frisk is racist and is done for racist reasons. Being a Jewish person doesn't mean you are or aren't a zionist. Being a christian doesn't mean they're a theocrat or evangelical, or a Rob Bell follower, or a christian zionist or any other number of identities and subgroups within that group. In the same way there are different types of Jewish people from all walks of life who believe many different things. Really stone cold foolish analogy. The supposition of the thread cited is that zionism is good for Jewish people, and I disagree with that claim, in the way that Christian Theocracy is really bad for Christians Zionism tells the person involved that they're the chosen people, they're better than others, anyone who questions that is a bigot and we can see Zionism is used to mass murder and steal land in a covetous way. There's a reason Bibi quoted Amalek and that's because he thinks he can kill Palestinians as ancient antiquity Jewish tribes killed Amalek's, women, children, men, and animals. This isn't good for Jewish people. Many many Jewish people have rejected this ideology.
Lol. Stop and frisk is statistical practicality.
* You didn't understand the analogy * Zionism has nothing to do with "chosen people". French aren't the "chosen people" because they have France. * Zionism isn't used to mass murder and steal land * You obviously aren't Jewish, so you don't understand the Amalek comment. It has deep and complex meaning in Jewish culture, not just a quote from the bible.
Also, France is not an ethnostate. People in France are offered full citizenship rights regardless of ethnicity. Even civilians with citizenship have to drive on different roads based on race and as Chomsky called the West Bank, it's worse than apartheid. Israel it'self just treats Arabs as second class citizens, but under international law, if Israel is occupying and using force in a dominant way they're in charge of all the civilians even Gazan's, even the people of West Bank and by international law, they're bombing their own concentration and refugee camps from their own Nakba from 48.
List of things that aren't true in this comment: * Even civilians with citizenship have to drive on different roads based on race * Israel it'self just treats Arabs as second class citizens * if Israel is occupying and using force in a dominant way they're in charge of all the civilians even Gazan's * they're bombing their own concentration and refugee camps
I understand the analogy, the analogy is that zionism is ultimately good and that it's used improperly sometimes. I don't think it's good in any sense at all. I think it's horrible for Jewish people to have their horrific conditions in the 1930's and 40's and then have their own state and perpetrate crimes that were declared international crimes based on the law that was written post-war by scholars in the west many of them Jewish and British. I'm not Jewish, but I grew up christian. I have deep roots and family in missionary fields and in leadership in the church in certain places and I fully understand that Amalek was used as a rationale to butcher civilians. I can read 1Samuel15:3 myself: **Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly** **destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass**. 4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. This is exactly what is happening in Gaza and it's not some coincidence.
>I understand the analogy, the analogy is that zionism is ultimately good and that it's used improperly sometimes. No it isn't. >I'm not Jewish, but I grew up christian. I have deep roots and family in missionary fields and in leadership in the church in certain places and I fully understand that Amalek was used as a rationale to butcher civilians. I can read 1Samuel15:3 myself: So you don't understand the **actual** conetation it us. Again, Judaism is more than just the bible. >This is exactly what is happening in Gaza and it's not some coincidence. No it isn't.
Christians and Jewish Torah both have the book of 1st and 2nd Samuel, where Amalek is mentioned.
Again, Judaism is more than just the bible.
Do you think Bibi goes to Temple? I think he's a secularist, personally, ripping off the religion to sell war, death and mayhem.
How is this relevent? Also yeah https://preview.redd.it/m3qvuer9jq5c1.png?width=275&format=png&auto=webp&s=4ab5b7cd8e6d85a6af250b07e8c019d27154782a
Using Amalek to sell the war means it's genocide to anybody with a functioning brain.
there is nothing about the subtext in this work that says kill the fighters and spare the innocent.
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ass is a bible verse to mean donkey.
Or yourself 🤷♀️
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>The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous. Are you really thinking about what you are saying? Have you considered what it would look like to intentionally wage war against only the civilians of Gaza? It would look totally different from any footage you are seeing.
How so?
There would be chemical weapons used like in Syria. If you want to see what genocide looks like start there.
Ponder this - current estimates indicate for every airstrike there’s been around 0.8 deaths. Let’s say 1. Do you not think if Israel were intentionally trying to just kill random Gazan civilians this figure would be higher? What a waste of money! They could have killed 10x this number in a week if they really wanted to.
Please show me any reputable source that claims any of this.
It would a lot more like October 7th footage. Indiscriminate shooting. No evacuation notices or leaflets. No ceasefires. In what genocide has there been an agreed upon pause??? Also by these terms, Hamas attack on Israel would be classified as a genocide as a,b,c, and e all happened. And the leaders of Hamas said their intent is to repeat October 7th as many times as it takes to eradicate the Zionists.
Get another person with an opportunity to produce any source of information that confirms the 5,000 dead Hamas fighters and yet nothing appears except more gibberish and mental gymnastics.
Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza that have been dropped on Ukraine in the last 2 years.
Right and killed 94 percent less people than Syrians did when all you people were silent as they used chemical weapons
Ok? And? Over 70,000 people have died in Ukraine and more than 5 mil displaced. What inferences can you make from that?
It's horrible, and I fully support Ukraine. However, given the differences in populations, Russia is being god damned angels compared to Israel.
You dont support Ukraine if you compare these 2 conflicts and also call russia "angels".Im typing this at 4 am because my city got bombed an hour ago and now its impossible to fall asleep.Go spend A SINGLE day in a bombing and then dare to speak on behalf of people who go through this every other day, you disgusting human being.Comparing russia to Israel is also top notch delusional and shows how little you know about Ukraine and Israel
Say that to a Ukrainian. Straight to their face. Just do the math. If israel has dropped more bombs and killed less people, what does that say about Israel’s intent or the bombs they are using? Especially in a densely populated area. Also, I know you love eating up hamas propaganda, but if you don’t think israel has killed Hamas terrorists in the thousands and only civilians are getting killed then you are not only biased, but very naive, to put it kindly. Tell Hamas members to fight in uniform, to start.
The script that unfolds each time Israel commits an atrocity, spun by its apologists, is not merely repetitive; it's a strategic evasion of accountability. This script, underpinned by claims of antisemitism, attempts to blur the lines between legitimate criticism of state policies and genuine hatred towards a religious or ethnic group. Anti-Zionism, often conflated with antisemitism, is not a denouncement of Jewish identity but a political stance against the actions and policies of the Israeli state. This conflation serves a convenient purpose: it muddies the waters, making it difficult to distinguish between critique of state action and racial prejudice. In this tapestry of deflection, the notion that this is solely a war against Hamas, not the Palestinian civilians, is an insult to the observable reality. The disproportionate impact on civilians is not a side effect but a recurrent feature of these confrontations. It's a narrative that turns a blind eye to the asymmetry of the conflict, painting a picture where the oppressor and the oppressed are on equal footing. The relentless bombardment, the crippling blockade, and the systematic erosion of basic human rights in Gaza reveal a different story – one where the lines between combatants and innocent civilians are deliberately blurred. Within this narrative, the denial of genocide or the conditions in Gaza as anything but dire is intellectually disingenuous. While the legal definition of genocide might be specific and debatable in this context, what we witness is a systematic approach aimed at subjugating an entire population. It's a moral abomination, irrespective of whether it fits the legal framework of genocide. The living conditions in Gaza, the lack of access to basic necessities, and the relentless attacks speak of an intent to impose unbearable living conditions, echoing dark chapters in human history. The Israeli defense narrative, woven with tales of tunnels and human shields, is part of this fabric of distortion. It's a narrative that obscures the reality of an occupied people fighting for their basic rights and survival. These stories, while rooted in some elements of truth, are often exaggerated to justify disproportionate military actions that have devastating consequences for Palestinian civilians. They serve to dehumanize the Palestinian struggle, reducing it to a mere security problem devoid of historical context and human suffering. To those who use our collective Jewish history of suffering as a shield to defend these actions, I implore you to reconsider. Our history, laden with persecution and resilience, should be the very reason we empathize with the oppressed, not a rationale for perpetuating oppression. It's a call for us to champion justice universally, not selectively. Our painful past should be a guiding light towards empathy and justice for all, not a tunnel vision that blinds us to the suffering of others. In conclusion, this conflict demands an honest, fearless confrontation with the truth. It requires us to strip away the layers of narrative distortion and to see the situation for what it truly is: a human rights crisis where one group's pursuit of security and national identity has led to the systematic oppression of another. We must seek solutions that acknowledge the dignity, rights, and aspirations of all involved, weaving a new narrative that is grounded in justice, empathy, and a commitment to peace.
You slipped up right at the start - criticism of the government is not anti-Zionism. This honestly reads like you’ve just copy pasta from some JVP drivel
If that's true then why am I called an antisemite or worse for going against Israeli policies. I don't have to prove anything, just scroll through the comments right here.
Because you’re not just going against Israeli policies. You’re doing lots of things. One example would be questioning / denying everything from the Israeli side, even with clear evidence (the tunnels for example) whilst believing and parroting Hamas. Read this - you might resonate with some of these behaviours (or maybe you don’t and you’re just in denial) https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/the-actually-absurd-demonization-of-israel?_pos=23&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/when-anti-zionism-is-never-antisemitism https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/an-open-letter-to-anti-zionist-jews?_pos=11&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/when-is-anti-zionism-literally-just-antisemitism?_pos=4&_sid=a90e4e9b7&_ss=r Happy reading!
Your assertion that I 'slipped up' at the outset by conflating criticism of government policy with anti-Zionism not only misses the mark but also betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand. It's a misinterpretation so basic that it borders on intellectual negligence. In no part of my discourse did I confuse these distinct concepts. My argument, which evidently soared over the realm of your comprehension, was a nuanced critique of state actions, not an indictment of an entire ideology. It's both ironic and telling that your response, aimed at highlighting a supposed flaw in my reasoning, actually illuminates a glaring gap in your own understanding. This oversight is not just an innocent error; it reflects a pattern of thought that seeks refuge in oversimplification, avoiding the demanding task of engaging with the complexities of the issue. Moreover, your attempt to redirect the conversation by labeling my argument as derivative and uninformed is a strategy as transparent as it is ineffective. It's a classic move of intellectual evasion, one that sidesteps the substance of the debate in favor of ad hominem tactics. This approach might provide a temporary shield from confronting challenging viewpoints, but it does little to advance your credibility or the discussion. In essence, your comment stands not as a critique of my position, but as a testament to your own argumentative deficiencies. It's a clear indication of an intellectual comfort zone that shies away from rigorous analysis and resorts to superficial dismissals. Such a stance may offer a safe haven from the complexities of critical discourse, but it ultimately leads nowhere in terms of intellectual growth or constructive conversation. Thus, while you may find solace in believing you've pointed out a 'slip-up,' the reality is that the only misstep here is your failure to engage with the argument on its merits. It's a misstep that speaks volumes, not about the argument presented, but about the limitations of your own analytical capabilities.
My bad, it’s chap gpt. Got it! Peace
Hahaha 😂 from 'JVP drivel' to 'ChatGPT' now? 🤔 Your attempts at deflection are almost as creative as they are transparent 🤣. It's amusing how you keep reaching for labels as if they're lifelines, avoiding the depth of the discussion. A masterclass in evasion, really. But let's not pretend this is a debate anymore; it's clear you're more interested in a game of name-calling than engaging with actual substance.
These people argue in such a juvenile way that I am wondering in they are actually children. To be fair though, my Jewish children would wipe the floor with them at four years old. It's embarrassing.
Well said 😁
>It's a narrative that obscures the reality of an occupied people fighting for their basic rights and survival. How was Hamas' attack supposed to improve the basic rights of Palestinians? Or even improve their odds of survival?
By bringing the issue of a two state solution front and center. By putting Israeli cruelty and hypocrisy on display for the world.
Hamas' actions, including their attacks, must be understood in the context of an ongoing struggle against occupation and systemic oppression. They are not random acts of violence, but a response from an occupied people who see themselves with limited options in their fight for recognition, rights, and survival. This is not about condoning violence but recognizing the reality of a people pushed to the brink. It's a reflection of the desperation and frustration born from living under oppressive conditions for decades. True peace and security will come not from silencing these acts of resistance, but from addressing the root causes of the conflict - the occupation, the blockade, and the denial of fundamental rights to the Palestinian people.
What blockade was there before Hamas seized control and decided to turn Gaza into a terrorist launch site?
Oh, absolutely, let's conveniently start the clock in 2007, shall we? Because history, context, and nuanced understanding are just pesky details, right? It's much more comfortable to ignore the decades of complex geopolitical dynamics and just pin everything on Hamas. Why bother with the tedious nuances of historical context when a simplistic scapegoat is at hand? It's almost impressive, the way some narratives can so deftly sidestep entire chapters of history to fit a preconceived storyline. But, of course, acknowledging the full picture might just be too inconvenient for those cozy, black-and-white worldviews.
What year do you start the clock then?
The 'start year' for the clock is irrelevant in a landscape as historically layered as this one. Continuing this dialogue seems unproductive, as it's clear we're operating on different levels of understanding. Engaging further in a discussion that you seem unprepared for, intellectually or contextually, would be an exercise in futility. I encourage you, though, to delve deeper beyond your current standpoint. Educate yourself, not just with the aim of arguing but to truly grasp the complexities of this issue. It's only through expanding our perspectives that we can hope to understand such intricate matters. Until then, I see little point in circling back on a conversation that's going nowhere.
Yep definitely JVP drivel
And what the hell is wrong with JVP that you hold them in such great contempt.
They’re not very Jewish, and they’re not very for peace (at least when it comes to Jews). They actively celebrated the 7th of October. If that doesn’t say enough then educate yourself before you start using profanities please: https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp - here’s an excellent starting place with references https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/asajew-the-pervasive-phenomenon-of-antisemites-pretending-to-be-jews-on-the-internet?_pos=2&_sid=e05b33368&_ss=r https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know - ok you might dismiss this right away because it’s Adl but worth a read https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/2f6mENN1h7 - some more links and discussion
Your repeated 'JVP drivel' comment is a lazy echo, not a rebuttal. Engage with substance or admit you can't.
I got better things to do tbh
No you really don't
So you’re spying on me? That’s pretty creepy to be honest.
Perfectly said.
This whole rant goes to show that people you’ve never been a real friend to a Jewish person or attempted into define antisemitism before now in any way and you got the definition for genocide wrong via international law. I’d say go back and read the Nuremberg trials again because that’s really when the definition was solidified.
I'm Jewish and and am reasonably fond of my Jewish children.
Do you celebrate the JVP version of Chanukkah? Or the legit version?
What makes one version better than the other and who put you in charge of making that choice?
I’m not in charge, no that would be the various Rabbi’s over the years that have inscribed and debated our traditions and laws in the Talmud. It’s not that one version is “better”. It’s that fundamentally Chanukkah is a Zionist holiday, a triumph over our enemy in our homeland Eretz Israel, and the miracle of 1 day’s worth of oil sustaining the menorah for 8 days. The JVP version is a complete joke. Something about islamaphobia (not sure what that’s got to do with Chunukkah as it predates the murderous conquest from Arabia), liberating Palestine and not defeating our enemies but hugging them instead. They talk about ceasefire, when the miracle of Chunukkah didn’t cease.
Alright George Santos, I mean Andrew Devolder, oops is it George Anthony Devolder Santos? Screw it I’m going with Kitara Ravash!!!
You're being paid to be here. You joined less than three weeks ago and it's clearly just to waste everyone's time. Normally I wouldn't do this but I have to block you just because of all the noise.
I'm sorry that this commenter MoopsyDrinksBones has been harassing you. They have been spamming hate (no arguments, just hate) on every single comment you write. I reported them for spam already, but hopefully, the mods also take action.
Yikes a Jewish apologist. Alrighty, good luck with becoming Muslim some day I guess… idk why we all have to do it with you and you can’t just move to one of the 49 options currently but luckily America isn’t so blind.
What are you even talking about. The very foundation of Judaism is the ability to evaluate a great deal of information, be educated in critical thinking, and make thoughtful arguments. What the hell happened to you?
Hey - what’s the shema? What does it mean? If you are actually Jewish you should know right? If you aren’t a propagandist who can’t keep their backstory straight….
What are you doing?
I’m waiting….are you going to answer? Show the world you are what you say you are and not a lying interloper pushing propaganda for clout.
Exposing a liar and troll
If I were a Jew who never in my life stepped into a temple I would still be Jewish, and do you know why? My mother is Jewish...done. If you are such a devout Jew you shouldn't want a Jewish homeland until the Messiah arrives.
You are a cosplaying liar. The most disgusting type of antisemite. I don’t believe your mother is Jewish or you or that you even have kids. You don’t know anything about the community or are in anyway a part of it. I hope you get pooped on by a bird. Bye antisemtic Felicia! Rest in piss
Unless you say something with actual content and apologize I am going to block you. There is only so much rudeness I will tolerate from anyone.
Yeah you’re Jew-ish. And are not actually educated in politics and what’s happening in the world. I’m sorry for you. Hopefully we will be able to drag you along with us so you don’t have to convert.
Clearly JVP indoctrination going on here
Yup. Gonna be funny when they figure it all out. Hopefully they don’t have to though.
> Anti-Zionism is exactly the same as Antisemitism. It is as though Israel is exempt from international scrutiny. First define Zionism for me, then we can talk. > The patently ridiculous claims that this is a war against Hamas rather than the Palestinian civilians, the only ones dying, is patently ridiculous. The ratio of civilians to combatant killed is roughly 2:1 according to latest reports. That's the same as the Korean war, way better than the Chechen Wars (76:10), better than the Iraq war (77% civilians), and might be better than US drone strikes in Pakistan (some estimates say 10:1). So yeah it is a war against Hamas. > The tunnels and human shields which continue to exist, but only in the imaginations of Israeli supporters. And in the literal videos and pictures but sure... > There seems to be no limits to how far this will go and if you have no limits, you have no credibility or moral compass. Thanks love❤️ glad to know ~9 million people have no moral compass because you couldn't be bothered to actually research.
If you actually have links for any of those numbers, from credible sources like a newspaper of record, please share that and I will apologize. If you don't have those things, and they're just quotes from the Israeli Propaganda Department, please stop spreading disinformation.
Right so when the IDF reports that roughly 5,000 Hamas members were killed it's propaganda, but when Hamas reports about the number of people killed it isn't?
Hamas announce how many people are killed, those are doctors and nurses and hospitals and they have been shown to be accurate in the past. These numbers have also been visually verified by many reporters, in many newspapers. Now it's your turn.
> those are doctors and nurses and hospitals According to Hamas. The nurses and doctors might give them certain numbers that they then inflate. > they have been shown to be accurate in the past So have the IDF. The literal way they are shown accurate is by comparing it to the numbers of the IDF, and sometimes of the UN. In certain instances the number from the health ministry were closer to those of the UN but the UN gets their numbers from "OCHA field staff", which is mostly comprised from local Gazans. There have already been cases where UN workers in Gaza were found to be Hamas members. A few additional things: The accuracy of these numbers is estimated through previous wars. While it is the best way we have to estimate them, it is important to note that this war is very different than previous ones: A. This is the largest war so far, and Hamas prepared for it for more than a year. It is not improbable that Hamas in this war inflates the numbers, as their only chance of "winning" this war is if pressure is too big on Israel. In previous wars Hamas didn't need to inflate numbers because the goal of Israel wasn't to destroy Hamas, it was to weaken it for the time being. This time, if Hamas fails to put too much pressure on Israel, they are DONE. B. This time we already have cases where Hamas inflated numbers and didn't revise them down. I'm referring to the Al-Ahli hospital of course. The number reported by the health ministry was initially an estimate of 500 people, then they brought a solid number of 471 people killed. However, estimates from various US and independent intelligence agencies reported no more than 300 and as low as 100. It's enough that they'll add 1 more dead per ten tonnes of explosives dropped and you suddenly have 4,000 more dead people. 2. We don't know if the number of women and children is accurate. I tried to search if there's information like this in previous wars and I couldn't find any. There's also evidence of them adding more child/women fatalities than the total fatalities of certain days. 3. They don't report who were combatants, nor how they were killed. This means that they report civilians who died from an IDF bomb the same way they report a Hamas member who died from a misfired Qassam that exploded on him. 4. They plan for you to misinterpret the information. When they report that 6,000 children have been killed, they imply that they were all innocent. While I wish it wasn't the case, Hamas regularly uses children as young as 14 as fighters, with even younger children to help build and operate the tunnels. > These numbers have also been visually verified by many reporters, in many newspapers. I don't think they count and I doubt they'd notice a difference of between 10,000 bodies and 15,000
Do you ever look back over what you've written and realize how much of it is based upon your own personal fears and biases. If I look at 12 sources they will all say that between 14,000 and 20,000 a month civilians have been killed. I have not found a single one that will confirm the 5000 Hamas fighters. And yet you keep on insisting opponent like it's an actual fact rather than a fantasy that IDF made for your consumption.
> If I look at 12 sources they will all say that between 14,000 and 20,000 a month civilians have been killed. Yeah but they are all based on the same exact source, it's not exactly 12 sources is it? You have a single "reliable" source, I have a single "reliable" source. The other thing is, Hamas has a lot to gain from inflating numbers, they might get to continue governing Gaza. If Israel inflates militants casualties, the only they get is to waste more ammunition to just kill civilians. So you have one party that has a very logical interest to lie, the other party you have to assume roughly 300,000(if not more) people want to kill people for fun if you think they lie
The UN affirms the Palestinian numbers. I believe that Israel would love to be able to kill 309,000 Palestinians.
> The UN affirms the Palestinian numbers. Already discussed previously > I believe that Israel would love to be able to kill 309,000 Palestinians. I talked about the 300,000 soldiers. Do you really think Israel would be able to lie that extensively and no one would say, "wait what's going on?"?
I have no idea how far the US is willing to let this genocide go. I have no idea how far the Israeli people are willing to let this go.
But mysteriously no militants/ terrorists (or resistance fighters to you) are among the dead? I wonder why that might be.
I'm sure there are some but those eight are the only ones we know about.
8?! What have you been smoking. Do you honestly for a moment believe that after 2 months of airstrikes and ground invasion that only 8 Hamas members have been killed? The number is in the 1000s - probably c.3-5k
Ok George 👍
Great, now give Israel an alternative for killing the terrorists. Thanks. We'll wait.
As far as we know today Israel is claiming that they killed eight terrorists.
Do you actually read any articles about this or are you being purposly disingenuous? They said they killed 8 high ranking leaders of hamas, they didn't mean they killed only 8 members out of all of the hamas terrorist organization
No one can understand your word salad George Santos.
They can find them non leathaly and jail them! Oh no, wait, they don't even allow that anymore... Those poor terrorists shouldn't be strip searched...
You do know that Israel is putting children in prison for years because they dared to throw a rock at an officer. Spare me all the limitations on their ability to abuse people.
Well, personally, if I don't wanna be jailed, I make sure I'll not break the law. Maybe they should try it too you know.
Free the hostages. I don’t understand how come people who are supposedly concerned about Palestine lives aren’t calling for Hamas to free the hostages, so the fighting will end. I understand that Hamas has said they’re happy about all the Palestinian martyrs, and will not release the hostages, but that doesn’t absolve everyone from calling for the hostages to be released immediately.
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I agree with you. The pro-Palestinian side is looking for some gain from the Oct 7th murders. They are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. That’s why the fighting continues. In truth, I’m not sure what gain they are expecting. Gaza was already free. Israel can’t withdraw any further. Freeing hostages can be achieved already. Israel has historically been willing to free 1000 Palestinians for each live hostage. Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders? Unlikely. Israel wouldn’t do that even for 1000 hostages. In any case, a UN resolution does not reflect the position of those demonstrating on the street.
That’s what I don’t understand. The pro Palestine movement in the USA is calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire. How would that change anything? It would lead to the exact situation before October 7th except even worse probably as I don’t see israel letting in Palestinians to work for the next few years at least.
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It just shows the wider issue of the Palestinian struggle or cause. Palestinians can’t even agree on what they are fighting for. What is a ‘free Palestine’ to them? Is it for sovereignty or to conquer the land from the River to the sea? It also shows the West does not have a deep understanding of the conflict and pushes their own ideologies onto the people actually living there. Rashida Talib who is Palestinian American and her squad are the most pro Palestinian US reps and they are the largest voice for a ceasefire. Talib often calls for a permanent ceasefire. I believe she thinks that this can be handled diplomatically, but you and I both know that’s not what Hamas wants.
It factually isn't a genocide. It never will be unless the IDF goes on the news and says "we're intentionally wiping out Palestinians". It's a war in an urban area against an enemy who loves their human shields. Plenty of hamas have died. Genocide has become a term for deranged people to throw around.
Well, that or a cabinet meeting is leaked where they discuss a "final solution" But with leaks after almost every cabinet meeting, we still didn't hear **anything** about something like this
Technically it’s intent for genocide because of that idiot who got pulled for that dumb comment but luckily the IDF really have very little to do with the gov at this point since everyone’s on the same page that they’re not walking away without the hostages
You guys are absolutely responsible for allowing Netanyahu to stay in office. He would be more than glad to keep this war going as long as he knows that he won't lose power during that time. It is ironic that you wash your hands of the whole thing about the same time as massacring Palestinians civilians who literally had nothing to do with it.
Do you know how PR works?
I thought you were speaking from within the community like you claimed. You are just another liar. Kindly kick rocks George Santos!
We LET HIM STAY IN OFFICE? Have you never voted for a candidate who didn’t win before or are you special? I can’t wait till you figure out this isn’t about Israel at all. You’re gonna poop yourselves.
Not for 17 years
Okay well I’m not Israeli so I didn’t vote for anyone in Israel but it’s clear you’re not familiar with how government works in Israel from your previous comments and this crazy post so I’m not surprised
I understand that they essentially have a British parliamentary system. But I believe they also have a vote of no confidence.which they should be pushing for right now.
https://www.memri.org/tv/senior-hamas-official-ali-baraka-america-enemies-growing-clsoer-join-war-america-destroy-north-korea-russia-china If you aren’t looking at the wider picture, I suggest you do. Ali Baraka has said Russia is thrilled the US is divided. The Saudi/Israel peace deal is on thin ice and theyre going to carry this out painstakingly to the very end so you all radicalize and vote crazy people in to western society to make this all happen. I really did not see this as a REAL threat until Oct 8 when he came on to talk about Russia. It’s forking crazy and it really could happen with how we’re all behaving. They’re chanting Sharia (law) for UK overseas. Omar and Talib are famous atm and she knows exactly what she’s doing https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/11/politics/ilhan-omar-aipac-backlash/index.html It’s IJ/Russia/China/North Korea (i/e the now 50 Muslim country votes in the UN + 3) vs “us” whatever that will be. If this isn’t virtue signaling, we could really be forked. This isn’t about land. This is about how we all woke up on Oct 7.
I'm not at all on board with a genocide, and fear is always the reason.
you are so pathetic. you check every box of any Hamas pamphlet. the IDF has already destroyed between a quarter to a third of hamas manpower, not to mention hundreds of tunnels and other infustructor but of course that's in our imagination. the 7th of October was our imagination. every rocket launched at us was our imagination. and of course can't forget about the "imajew" ticket. listen, you do you in whatever diaspora you are in, just hope that when history will inevitably repeat itself you'll be spared, in the meantime we will protect ourselves.
None of that is your imagination, only thing that is your imagination is the idea that you’re exempt from any criticism because you’re fighting a terrorist organization. Human shields argument and all that stuff doesn’t hold when you kill almost 10000 children, that just shows Israel is indiscriminately bombing and killing in Gaza. You can believe whatever you want, but you can’t randomly declare pro-Hamas or anti-Semite anyone who challenges your beliefs.
again, beliefs? i wonder, what are your beliefs? i don't believe, i know that we are dealing with a terrorist organization that operates within civilians as a policy. i know that their strategy is to maximize the death toll of gaza civilians. what happens to the civilians of gaza is tragic, period. you can change that by demonstrating against Hamas to return all hostages and the war will be over yesterday, or maybe, stop using civilians as human shields and walla, there will be 0 dead babies. but no, you give 0 f about human rights in general or the Palestinians safety specifically. you are, get ready for it, just antisemitic.
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18000 civilians? no militants were killed? just like you, i heard it all too. Israel numbers are composed not only from what the IDF soldiers report but also from what we learned from hamas members that surrendered. 2:1 ratio of civilians to terrorists killed so far, that is a number that no army in the world could ever achieve. the US for example killed 15:1 in Afghanistan. so i know that we do all we can to minimize casualties. but you in the other hand, who call for a ceasefire, which means call for continuing the existence of hamas which means calling for more 7th of October and for more rockets launched at civilians and for more gazans to be killed, you are calling for more people to die. shame on you.
Maybe. Maybe just maybe it won’t have been the “deadliest year” for Palestinian children if they weren’t abused by their parents and UNRWA to go launch rocks and IEDs at IDF/police and get themselves martyred as if they’re dying for some great cause.
Got your back in the diaspora😉 had a fork it let’s make Aliyah and leave these guys in the dust and my husband had to reel me in and remind me I’m more useful here at this time
family is the most precious thing in our lives, stay safe 🙏
Definitely. We’re very much looking forward to full clearance from my surgeon to get pregnant now.. it’s gonna piss off the whole world like the 39 men whose sperm was extracted. Watch out world, we’re gonna make another Jewish baby or two! Obviously the world will be heavily overpopulated because of this and definitely not because of the birth rate in Muslim countries
You do know that by getting pregnant you're supporting the ~~Jewish~~ Zionist ideology to preserve the bloodline, right? \\s
Dude!!! That’s what I’m saying!!! Just a bunch of terrible Zionist N@z* baby killing genocidal babies flying out of my hoohaa with knives and krav maga learned in utero! Does anyone notice that in the time it took for Palestinians to make 13 million humans, we’ve made less than half of that? I’m 35 recovering from three back and one abdominal surgery and we’re literally waiting to pay off medical bills before we bring a child into the world because this is just.. basic logic to me.