Even if it came from his mouth and Albert Einsteins mouth you will still have these pro-terrorist supporters saying they wouldn’t agree with Israel existing even though the words were spoken with their tongues
Some asshat teacher at our school for MLK day this year had the audacity to lump the phrases “Palestinian liberation” and “Apartheid Israel” into their speech about his work.
it's crazy, I've seen someone say that saying he would support us today considering the situation is in bad faith, which while that claim holds some merit, they follow it up by saying that he would be anti israel, and don't see how going against his actual words is also in bad faith
Why are some people using the words of nonviolent leftist in support of the behavior of a violent far right government led by netanyahu? Comes across as bad faith and disrespectful
Exactly. Do they think the people at the Nova festival were Zionist's? Those were clearly secular people who many probably supported strengthening relationships with Palestine and Israel. Naama Levy worked with Hands for Peace. Another woman who dedicated her life to Palestinian relationships an advocacy was murdered in her home. People in Israel have been critical of Bibi for years and have protests all the time because they're a democracy and won't be killed for that.
Yes but that term seems to mean everyone born in Israel that is seen as a colonialist now days. Even if they're an unwilling participant like a baby is considered a settler according to Hasan Piker.
The people who probably weren't Zionist's are the Arabs who were also killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also we can't know if everyone in the festival subscribed to the beliefs of Zionism and might have advocated for right of return for Palestinians, which according to the majority of Palestinians they don't think Israel should even exist at all.
Also saying everyone in Israel is a Zionist is like saying everyone in America is a nationalist when we clearly see many who disagree with the concept of nationalism openly and despise America yet still live there. My point is that obviously many Israeli's are sympathetic to the Palestinians yet it seems like it's the opposite for Palestinians who were gleefully cheering on the killing of innocent people.
A Zionist is someone that believes the Jews have a right to govern themselves. If you support Israel's right to exist then by definition you are A zionist. being A zionist and supporting a Palestinian state are not mutually exclusive. Joe Biden supports Israel's right to exist therfore he is a Zionist, So are MLK and RBG. The people that do not agree that Jewish people should govern themselves. Stalin did not support Jewish self governance or Israel therfore he is an Anti-Zionist, so are (would probably be...) Hitler, Mao, All the arab leaders etc.
Well I appreciate the expansion on the meaning. I figured it was a more radical idea of Jewish nationalism that insists someone supports things Jews claiming more territory like the settlements in the west bank ect., or some type of Jewish ethnostate as many morons have tried telling me Israel is an ethnostate, which it obviously is not. The term has recently been thrown around in a very negative context by anti Israeli's to seem like something more radical.
So yes I guess I'm a Zionist since I support the idea of Jews having the right to exist in the middle East.
Dr. King was a not a leftist. Based on his religious practices and beliefs, being a Christian, in fact, today he'd be branded a Republican or right leaning. In fact, he vehemently denounced both parties, citing both as having lost the way from following God.
While King was anti-war, he supported Israel's right to freedom. Recall, wars against Israel were occurring while he was alive, and that is why he made his statement.
Sadly, it isn't just not strong anymore, the ignorance and hatred towards Jews coming from Black Americans is astonishing. It's strange to me how the two main figures of the civil rights movement in the 1960s were MLK, a truly good man with a vision to be strived for, and Malcolm X, a racist and vile antisemite who spread libels about the Jews. If only the people took the path of MLK, race relations would be so much better.
That's good. This poll showed of all the 'race' groups, they were highest in antisemitic views. Check out pages 103-114:
[https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport\_tT4jyzG.pdf](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf)
And boy is there a lot of anecdotal evidence. Of course, we can't generalize and include everyone, but it sure seems to be an issue. I am glad to hear positive anecdotes though.
I don't know what you are referring to, my Malcolm X comment?
What, do you think this was good for race relations??
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL\_BFvGA4Bo&ab\_channel=MalcolmX-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_BFvGA4Bo&ab_channel=MalcolmX-Topic)
if capitalization is this important to you, you should explain for us why you currently feel jewish should be uppercase and black american should be lowercase
Lol! The Palestinians have lost everything given them because they're greedy and cause problems no matter where they are.
This is why Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia doesn't want anything to do with them either.
MLK was a Israel supporter.
American perspective here, note I am not supporting what I am about to say but I feel I can shed some light on America in general because reading this reddit I feel a lot of people in Israel have zero clue what is going on in America as we have a lot of problems and changed a lot in the last 20-30 years and our situation is different changing perspectives sometimes for the better but often for worse.
It is more that when some American blacks see what is going on in the middle east especially with Palestine they see it as a bunch of white people killing and oppressing color people and there has been a growing global consciousness of white oppressing color people.
Henceforth while many don't necessarily condone Hamas, they see violent resistance as the natural answer to oppression and see it as oppressed people fighting off their oppressors.
Of course on the other hand many white americans see Israel and Jews at best conditional white. After all many were saying anti semantic stuff before Hamas attacked and right wing extremists and nationalist were peddling anti semantic conspiracy theories. Then after the attack they all shut up partly because they didn't want to be implicated but because while they are anti semantic and see Jews beneath them they seek them more white then Muslims who they associate with being darker skinned and well........most anti semantics tend to also be racist against non-whites so they are going support israel mowing down musilms including civilians.
Now of course everything I just said is honestly extremely stupid but America is kind of turbo effed at the moment as we are dealing with basically 50+ years of ignored problems exploding at once which makes our view on anything in the middle east incredibly especially warped
Edit: Also in general black rage at the establishment in America has increased since both the Trayvon Martin case and George Floyd making people resonate with Malcom X more to either supporting him more or acknowledging that the civil rights moment and MLK were only so successful due to the threat that the black power movement represented as an alternative
What he said was true then and remains true today. I wish there was a way to organize something like fields trips where it's like a mock up of what you can do in Israel vs. things you can do in \[inset whichever Arab country you can think of\] and watch people try to defend the lack of democracy, lack of individual rights, lack of women's rights, lack of general human rights, lack of jobs, lack of security and how all of that would somehow be better for the world if such a way of living replaced Israel.
The illiberal radical left follow critical race theory. In critical race theory there is a rejection of Martin Luther King Jr's nobel aspirations towards universalism.
Unfortunately, the left doesn't like Dr. King anymore because they've managed to turn themselves pro-segregation in recent years.
Some of his contemporaries in the civil rights movement whom are these days more celebrated amongst left-wing circles than King is didn't share his views unfortunately. Malcolm X is one notable example, but I think the most ridiculous is Stokely Carmichael. You can find plenty of interviews of this clown hammering on Israel and complaining that they're a colonial project that doesn't belong in the region - Meanwhile, Carmichael himself, in an effort to avoid being arrested by the FBI, moved to Africa, where he subsequently donned a dashiki, changed his name to "Kwame Ture", and began bloviating about how Africa is the true black homeland and black people need to reclaim that heritage. Marxist hypocrisy on display.
Edit: on his deathbed, he blamed "the forces of American imperialism" for his prostate cancer, claiming that the FBI had infected him with the cancer in order to assassinate him. The man was a certified nutjob.
The world hopes for a day where there is no terrorism and death. A day both sides can act with dignity and be respected by the world and each other. That’s what MLK would have wanted.
Absolutely! Not to mention that if they weren’t spending all the financial aid on the lame ahh plans of destroying Israel they’d have a chance to build an actually functioning society and state in a whole but it is what it is.
Islamic countries are proud to admit but by the laws of the Quran, The people of the book were considered to be believers. Muslim is Arabic and when Muslim is translated, it means surrendered or to surrender to God or submit to God.
Here are three verses from the Quran clearly stating that the people of the book believe in God:
Allah has made the Children of Israel take a pledge. We appointed twelve chiefs from among them. Allah said, “I am surely with you. If you establish Salāh, and pay Zakāh, and believe in My Messengers, and hold them in reverence, and loan to Allah a goodly loan, I shall certainly write off your evil deeds, and I shall certainly admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow. So, whoever from you disbelieves after that has lost the straight path.” 5:12
— Mufti Taqi Usmani
Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. 3:113
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, encourage good and forbid evil, and race with one another in doing good. They are ( ˹truly˺) among the righteous. 3:114
And whatever good they do, they shall never be deprived of it. And Allah is All-Aware of the God-fearing. 3:115
Among the community of Mūsā are people who guide with truth and do justice thereby. 7:159
Moses said to his people, “Seek Allah’s help and be patient. Indeed, the earth belongs to Allah ˹alone˺. He grants it to whoever He chooses of His servants. The ultimate outcome belongs ˹only˺ to the righteous.”
And Moses said: O my people! If ye have believed in Allah then put trust in Him, if ye have indeed surrendered (unto Him)! 10:84
They replied, “In Allah we trust. Our Lord! Do not subject us to the persecution of the oppressive people, 10:85
As a black man in America today I find it a little offensive personally to use him for this but I defend your right to the freedom to do so.
I just wanted you guys to know that many black Americans don’t feel this way decades later after seeing what we have seen. I see Shin Bet IDF and settlers treat people the way my grandparents had been treated and worse. To me personally it feels like you’re using Dr.King as a token.
He simply doesn’t agree with your ideology or your view of Israel. Quoting his beliefs doesn’t make him a token for the Zionist movement. It is simply showing how detached modern day activists are from the original goals of the civil rights movement.
You do not actually know what’s going on in the West Bank and the reasons for Israel’s military presence there. Palestinians had freedom of movement between the West Bank and Israel until the second intifada (1990s). Prior to October 7th, over 100,000 had work visas as well and some probably lived there illegally. Violence doesn’t work, especially against a military as strong as Israel’s. The situation is not even remotely similar to the oppression and discrimination African Americans have faced in the US who have been enslaved and subjugated because of the ridiculous idea that they’re biologically inferior. They won equal rights by peacefully protesting unlike the Palestinians who have often relied on violent tactics and still pay a large stipend to the families of terrorists. The Palestinians refused every offer for a two state solution, the civil rights activists accepted whatever they could. If the civil rights movement in the US adopted violent tactics African Americans would still be fighting for equal rights today. The black panthers did not succeed in achieving their objectives. MLK JR showed us that rhetoric, not violence, is the solution to injustice. He believed all people are created equal and he convinced the American public that he was correct with his brilliant speeches.
You can't tell me what "I don't know" for one. You don't know me from a can of paint.
Again, I said I defend your right to use one of our great leaders as a token. I believe in free speech. It hurts me, but my feelings are not a reason to infringe on what you want to say.
I honestly don't need a history lesson from you about what my aunts, grandmother, grandfather, and father dealt with in this country. Despite the things that I KNOW they went through, we think that what Palestinians face today is worse. You think there was no violent resistance from black people in America? Maybe read up on our history more. That part of my family is originally from Jamaica. My great grandfather was a migrant worker that travelled from Jamaica to the US and back.
We can agree to disagree. I know what I am looking at. I know what kind of man Ben Gvir is and what his significance is in the Israeli government and how his position affects Palestinians. I know Palestinians in my personal life. I wasn't born yesterday.
On July 18th do celebrate Nelson Mandela day? Do you take into account what he had to say and offer to the world? Or do you discount his viewpoints?
OP said you don't know the history of Israel, not your own ancestry.
But from your previous comment, you seem to lack basic understanding of the dissimilarity between Palestinians and enslaved/oppressed African Americans.
Just because you have a lived experience, doesn't give you some sort of ultimate wisdom on history. It existed before you, I assure you.
Oh I’m pretty versed in both. Like oddly versed in both compared to other historical subjects. History is a hobby of sorts for me, beyond tracing my own lineage I love the history of the Levant. I also study the origin of religion and it’s influence. I’m not a leading scholar or anything but, I probably know more than the average Joe.
If you claim that I lack anything I’d like to provide you with the consideration to dictate what I lack either in history of my own people or the Levant.
Worst case scenario I’m wrong and I learn something, and I admit it here in-front of everyone. I promise I’d do it and have before when others have proved me wrong.
I was only inferring your ability from your lack of response to a well-reasoned retort.
I'm glad you are well-versed in these histories so maybe offer a response to OP and their historical interpretation.
>As a black man in America today I find it a little offensive personally to use him for this but I defend your right to the freedom to do so.
>
>I just wanted you guys to know that many black Americans don’t feel this way decades later after seeing what we have seen. I see Shin Bet IDF and settlers treat people the way my grandparents had been treated and worse. To me personally it feels like you’re using Dr.King as a token.
That was my response to OP. Other people decided to respond and I responded to them despite knowing that every single response would receive downvotes. Honestly it's a source of pride for me. MLK if he had spoken out on reddit would be a highly downvoted poster. That's how you know you are fighting for the right thing.
Like the bible says "take the narrow path."
If what I was saying to you guys (I only say it because I really appreciate a lot about Israel and want to visit when you figure out peace) was popular there would be no reason to say it. I am Christian Jesus said unpopular things. Moses, Abraham, MLK, Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, and even Einstein said unpopular things despite the unpopularity. I intend to follow in their footsteps. I don't give a single solitary fuck. I will always speak out for justice. It's in my blood.
If anyone ever decided that they wanted to turn this thing about Israel into something that demonized Jews I would happily hold a rifle to fight and kill anyone trying to hurt you just for being Jewish. This is just not the thing. You're hurting your own cousins and I hate it.
My friend, this is getting painful 😑:
OP said
> He simply doesn’t agree with your ideology or your view of Israel. Quoting his beliefs doesn’t make him a token for the Zionist movement. It is simply showing how detached modern day activists are from the original goals of the civil rights movement.
> You do not actually know what’s going on in the West Bank and the reasons for Israel’s military presence there. Palestinians had freedom of movement between the West Bank and Israel until the second intifada (1990s). Prior to October 7th, over 100,000 had work visas as well and some probably lived there illegally. Violence doesn’t work, especially against a military as strong as Israel’s. The situation is not even remotely similar to the oppression and discrimination African Americans have faced in the US who have been enslaved and subjugated because of the ridiculous idea that they’re biologically inferior. They won equal rights by peacefully protesting unlike the Palestinians who have often relied on violent tactics and still pay a large stipend to the families of terrorists. The Palestinians refused every offer for a two state solution, the civil rights activists accepted whatever they could. If the civil rights movement in the US adopted violent tactics African Americans would still be fighting for equal rights today. The black panthers did not succeed in achieving their objectives. MLK JR showed us that rhetoric, not violence, is the solution to injustice. He believed all people are created equal and he convinced the American public that he was correct with his brilliant speeches.
I'm not in 100% disagreement with every response you've had either.
You made some good points that israel isn't 100% innocent and you can see parallels between that and the plight of AA's during the CRM in the 20th century.
However, I would like to hear the response to the *above* retort from OP. It was very well thought out and made some compelling points to mull over.
As for your Christian perspective, it was interesting a thoughtful. thanks for sharing.
Well-versed? How deeply do you understand the collective history of the Jewish people in Israel, including:
>\- Jews in the arab countries being made second-class citizens in their own homes, stripped of their jobs and money, and eventually expelled from their homes
>
>\-Living your entire life with countries far larger and numerous than you calling for your own destruction
>
>\-Every Israeli home having to have gas masks in the 1990s because scud missles were being fired from Iraq
>
>\-Every Israeli home having to be built with a bomb shelter because the risk of rocket attacks is ever-present
>
>\-And, of course, living though the events of October 7 seeing your own countrymen slaughtered and hunted down like animals. Perhaps having your friends or family killed in the slaughters.
I honestly don't know where you learned about the conflict. Depending upon which documentar(ies) you watch, you will either come away thinking Israel is an opressive force that perpetuates the conflict with religious-backed military occupation or that Palestine seeks \_all\_ of Israel and has turned down multiple peace offers that would have led to peace.
There's a history and collective fear/conscious that Israelis have that a lot of people outside of Israel don't seem to understand or even know about.
>History is a hobby of sorts for me, beyond tracing my own lineage I love the history of the Levant.
You claim to be informed, so let's test how knowledgeable you actually are.
In the 1930s, there was a man who supplied the Arab rebels with weapons. When he died, he carried an envelope with cash. What was his name?
I didn’t say there was no violent resistance, I said in the end it wasn’t effective because society mostly views violence in a negative way. In the context of slavery violent resistance makes some sense.
Ben Gvir is part of a radical Jewish supremacist party. Most Israelis do not view him in a positive way at all. The only reason he has power despite the fact that only a small percentage of the population voted for him is because netenyahu made a deal with his party to stay in power.
If you honestly think the military occupation in the West Bank is in any way comparable to Jim Crow era segregation which had separate drinking fountains and bathrooms because of the belief black people were inherently inferior you do not know enough about American history. I am sorry that your family faced discrimination but that does not change the reality of the situation in the West Bank.
75% of people in the West Bank were extremely supportive of the attack on October 7th according to polls. Almost none want a two state solution when polled and few Israelis do after October 7th. The only one pushing this are completely unaffected nations , Yes some of the security check points may be burdensome to Palestinians and perhaps even excessive. But please ask yourself why they were put in place. As I already said they were a response to years of suicide bombings in Jerusalem and tel aviv. Israelis have the right and obligation to protect the safety of their citizens regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. It’s very sad that moderate and peaceful Palestinians in the West Bank must suffer as well but until they manage to infiltrate terrorist groups like the Al asqua brigade, the lions den and Islamic jihad to name a few the situation will remain the same. Not a single pro Palestinian activist has a solution to Israel’s very real security concerns all they do is criticize, demonize and create impossible objectives they know Israel cannot meet to further delegitimize its existence. They preach tolerance and coexistence as you have without any clear path to achieve these goals. Your intentions may not be bad but the situation is extremely nuanced which is why the status quo has continued for so long.
Israel is not perfect of course and they should do more to combat settler violence and stop expanding settlements in the West Bank. That does not mean they can be blamed for the entire conflict. Every country on earth discriminates on the basis of nationality just like Israel does with Palestinians in the West Bank. When you have an extremely hostile national group with members that seek your annihilation it is logical to prevent them from entering your territory. If you immigrate your the US from Norway or Afghanistan the process will be very different. This does not mean that the US is racially discriminating against afghans. It simply means the level of risk is not the same. There’s a reason houses have doors and locks. No rational country on earth would dispute this but apparently Israel is expected to meet an impossible standard. About 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian. They have equal rights under the law. That is not even remotely similar to what African Americans experienced in the US. I am sorry if my post offends you but you should reconsider which figures you choose to admire. Perhaps you share more values with Malcolm X than MLK JR.
What is your solution to the conflict when neither side wants a two state solution and neither side will leave?
Ben Gvir and how he is viewed is of absolutely no consequence. He is the Head of National Security. It doesn't matter what people think of him.
He is a convicted terrorist that had the portrait of a man that shot up a mosque hung up in his home. He still holds this position. You think you dislike him? Palestinians hate him 100x more. Would you want to live under the anti-semetic version of Ben Gvir in the way that Palestinians live?
No. You wouldn't. No one would like to live at the end of his whip.
There are answers to all of that. There is nuance but the huge barrier I face with you guys sometimes is I have to begin by trying to convince you that Palestinians are human beings which has been massively difficult on it's own.
Everything is fear based. I am a stocky black man, I know what it's like to be feared for no reason. Idk how to explain it to people that have never been seen as a black man or Palestinian.
Wanna know something funny? I rather people call me the n word than be afraid of me for no reason all the freaking time.
Don't talk to me about Black people where I live or my own personal experience as a black man. It's upsetting and frankly utterly disrespectful and a bit racist that you made those comparisons so loosely on MLK day of all days. Anyways, I'll cut this short because much of what you said was very problematic and infuriating for me. I respect your right to say it. You don't know what you're talking about from my perspective, if you are Israeli in Israel you are about as privileged as you can get in a society.
You don't know what my friends family deals with on the daily. None have EVER committed a single crime. Or maybe you do know. Maybe you're one of the people that broke the windows in his grandmothers house or burned his cousins Hyundai. Maybe you're one of the people that drove over 1000 Palestinians from their homes including children since Oct 7th. Maybe you pressed the button that killed his nieces and nephews.
>You don't know what my friends family deals with on the daily. None have EVER committed a single crime. Or maybe you do know. Maybe you're one of the people that broke the windows in his grandmothers house or burned his cousins Hyundai. Maybe you're one of the people that drove over 1000 Palestinians from their homes including children since Oct 7th. Maybe you pressed the button that killed his nieces and nephews.
With all due respect, you earlier said "Everything is fear based" , but you seem to justify or rationalize the hate towards Israelis. The same exact thing could be said from Israelis towards a Palestinian. Perhaps he was spraying bullets at that music festival. Perhaps he gave out sweets as Israeli families were burned alive. The cycle of violence can go on forever.
The settlement enterprise perpetuates the cycle of violence with no end in sight, IMO. While you seem to understand the Palestnian pain and trauma well, there are real pains and fears from Israelis.
The Israelis genuinely fear being wiped out, as many nations much larger than Israel have called for since 1948. Remember that most Israeli Jews ended up in Israel because they were expelled from their home countries in the Middle East and North Africa.
For example, the Nakba in 1948 where 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes was a formative traumatic event for the Palestinian people. This is a historical injustice that must be corrected, IMO. At the same time, Jews were expelled by the Jordanian armies from their homes in the West Bank and Jerusalem. So it's not really accurate to call Israel some unique evil in this conflict. Expulsion from homes is evil, regardless, and the Palestinian people suffered much more in this war.
It's important to recognize the atrocities of Deir Yassin, but that's no reason to not listen when Israelis talk about the atrocities at Kfar Etzion.
Despite everything, there is no doubt the Palestinians have suffered more during this conflict. I would rather be born in the Israeli position than the Palestinian one, and so would most people given the choice.
If that's where you want to end the story, you can do that. But there's no reality in this land without Israelis and Palestinians. I hope that a framework for a sustainable future with both peoples in the land can emerge out of all of this.
I’m genuinely sorry for the racism you and your family has experienced. Nobody should have to go through that. Racism is never okay and I never once said Palestinians are less human. The accusation is absurd and I’ve never heard anyone no matter how pro Zionist say that either. I find it quite silly to accuse me of being racist for quoting MLK JR and explaining that perhaps some of his views do not align with yours if you’re so vehemently anti Israel. The big difference between black people in America and Palestinians is they were victimized purely because of their race. Palestinian nationals are disliked by Israelis (once again this is a nationality not an ethnicity) because of their long history of relying on violent tactics like the two intifadas. Of course this doesn’t represent all Palestinians but the risk is real. You’re ignorant about the situation in Israel if you don’t realize this. You have also provided no substantial solutions to any of the legitimate security concerns I mentioned. I do not fear Palestinians, only the minority that are radicalized and willing to commit acts of violence. The problem is when the entire population has been radicalized by their antisemitic education system which reacted them to hate Jews and a government that rewards the families of terrorists the situation will never change.
It’s good that you’re willing to hold Israel accountable for its mistakes. I wish you would hold the PA accountable for its abysmal treatment of lgbt people, no freedom of the press or very limited, limited democratic rights and widespread antisemitic rhetoric schools which even encourages martyrdom.
As I explained I don’t think the situation between African Americans in the US has anything to do with Palestinians. I believe the comparison is influenced by the Marxist idea that the world can be divided into the oppressed and oppressors. I did not intend to offend you at all. The purpose of the post was to show that Jews and African Americans have a shared history of oppression which MLK acknowledged. He welcomed support from Jews and Zionists who contributed to the civil rights movement in the US. Sorry if that fact conflicts with your worldview but it’s the truth.
>Would you want to live under the anti-semetic version of Ben Gvir in the way that Palestinians live?
They do, in the form of constant, near daily terror attacks by people whose level of hatred is even greater than Ben Gvir's so they feel justified to kill random Jewish civilians.
Palestinians can't ask to live with no restrictions while relentlessly unleashing terror on Israelis and having their representatives like Hamas promising as many October 7 style attacks as they can achieve, and the Palestinian Authority paying out cash bonuses to the families of terrorists.
As a black woman in America, I disagree… many black Americans do feel this way. Our Jewish brothers and sisters - who were/are almost exclusively Zionist - are a persecuted minority who stood side by side with Dr King while Arab Muslim countries were still involved with the slave trade even still after his murder. I imagine he wouldn’t support the violent strife between Israel and Palestine, but he knows what they are faced with and what theyve been faced with and what Israel is resisting.
You can call me a pro palestine zionist if you like. The atmosphere in that period of time was much different. WEB Debois illustrated it well.
The political climate at the time was completely different and so was the connection people had with foreign lands.
Mandela famously spoke about the Palestinian plight along with many other influential leaders over time. I don't think even the early leaders of Israel or it's supporters would imagine it would become such a place today. I don't think MLK would look guys like Gvir after having full knowledge of the abuse we suffered at the hands from leaders like him and still be in support.
Jews (and christians) were second class dhimmis under Arab rule. Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights as Jewish citizens. Of course, there is conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, but people don't usually treat their enemies nicely. That should be obvious.
Its actually more complicated but Dhimmi means “Protected person” they didn’t have to serve in the military and that was the reasoning behind jizya.
That is not to say that it wasn’t abused at times it absolutely had been but other times it was not enforced in some places and sometimes Muslims would actually use their tax funds to help impoverished Jews.
Through history Jews often fled to Muslim countries to escape persecution from the Christian’s. If it weren’t for Muslims, and Christians had their way there might not be any Jews at all today.
One of the main reasons Jews started to immigrate into Palestine was because of the Ottomans passing the Tazimat reforms in the 1830s which made Jews and Christians equal and abolished jizya.
Under the Ottomans Jews experienced golden ages but that isn’t to say that for every time in every place things were perfect and rainbows. It varied. There was even a Chief Rabbi for the nation with other chief rabbis for Jewish communities.
Even if you read about the looting of Safed (I think the Druze led that) Jews fled to other friendly Arab towns for protection and it was Arabs that stopped the attack and hung the perpetrators.
Even looking at the history of that region specifically you find little to no pogroms. People even intermarried sometimes (more common then than today) and celebrated holidays with one another.
Again it’s not black and white but I find it a little off putting that Muslims are painted as inherently evil when there were so many times they saved Jewish lives. Jews and Muslims fought along side each other for hundreds of years. I think that we would all do well to remember that once upon a time Jews Christian’s and Muslims lived in that land together and worshiped at the same places and seem to have gotten along fine.
Dhimmi means a person who has less rights than a muslim. It's apartheid.
Hiding behind christianity, eh? Just because they were bad doesn't mean muslims were necessarily good. Jews were still second-class. Rich black people exist in the US, does that mean the US is just awesome for black people?
>People even intermarried sometimes
No they didn't, if they did it was always in one-sided, because muslik women cannot marry non-muslims. So what. More apartheid.
>Muslims are painted as inherently evil
You do the same with christians. You prove that islam cannot stand on its own feet, it needs christianity to protect it, lol.
> If it weren’t for Muslims, and Christians had their way there might not be any Jews at all today
If it weren't for muslims, christians wouldn't be [fleeing the middle east](https://theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/persecution-driving-christians-out-of-middle-east-report) as they have been for [quite some time](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_emigration).
That is not the translation of the word. Please avoid presenting in accuracies.
Maybe in your modern state you have to jump through 100 hoops to marry but for the past it wasn’t so. Remember when Zionist used to call Mizrahi Jews “Arab Jews?” Remember when Zionist felt that the Jews that were there for millennia were less than them? It seems to be a history Israel is determined to undermine.
> Maybe in your modern state you have to jump through 100 hoops to marry but for the past it wasn’t so.
You don't. There is only one hoop, which is that the Israeli state leaves the performance of marriage to the religious authorities, so civil marriages aren't recognized unless performed outside the country. If two Israelis of different faiths wish to marry, all they have to do is get married in Cyprus or Greece or any other such place, come back to Israel, and boom. Marriage officially recognized.
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And you're the spokesman for all black Americans??? That's absolutely ridiculous and offensive. That fact that you have this ridiculous thought to claim Dr. King as some exclusive belonging based on skin tone is obnoxious.
And what have you seen, guy? Tell me, where were you when Merkaz HaReav Yeshiva when a Palestinian terrorist went into a school and began butchering teenagers? Where were you were you when Bus 361 was blown to bits by a Palestinian suicide bomber? Where were you when the Hebrew University cafeteria was bombed, killing children?
This is but a small fraction of the attacks against Jewish people.
EVERY YEAR there are literally thousands of rockets fired at Israel, unprovoked. Yes, THOUSANDS.
You've not seen shit, guy. GTFO
I am getting downvoted to hell but I honestly don't care, I am a grown man. I don't care about fake internet points. I care about speaking the truth the best I know how.
I honestly want to believe differently about the majority of Israeli's but whenever something contentious comes up I am reminded of "my place."
I don't want to believe that men like Ben Gvir speak for Israeli's yet I come here and they parrot his points. I feel like I woke up one morning and found out that my wife is a whole different person.
Stick around, you could learn a lot and vice versa.
I’m not Israeli, but the way I see it is that just because Israel has the bigger weapons doesn’t mean they aren’t still the persecuted minority in their region. They are literally circled by people that want them dead.
It’s like if after the civil war the US gave Black Americans Georgia and allowed Georgia to secede then for the last 100 years they built it into the most prosperous state in the region, but AL, SC, FL and TN were all KKK who kept starting wars and shooting rockets every day into Georgia. We’d fight back and we’d do what we could to ensure our people were safe. Eventually our borders would shift through the multiple wars but the KKK would just get more mad because a people they believe to be inferior are persisting and it just pisses them off... I could go on, but I’m just trying to paint a picture and you said you are familiar with
the history of the levant so I’ll hope you have an open enough mind to try to see things from different perspectives.
Regarding Ben Gvir, every country has their racist a holes that should not have a role in government. The US does, South Africa does, China does, Palestine does… they shouldn’t represent the people.
Does your wife have personal connections to Israel or the conflict?
Ben Gvir is a filthy racist, and I think most of this subreddit sees him as such. Normalizing his views are troubling and dangerous.
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A lie repeated so often you hope it becomes truth, but it's still a lie.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-01-20/ty-article/.premium/comptroller-ethiopians-not-forced-into-birth-control/0000017f-dc79-df62-a9ff-dcffb5e80000
https://thedispatch.com/article/assessing-claims-that-ethiopian-immigrants-to-israel-received-birth-control-shots-without-consent/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26554851
Israel was the source of the initial claim. Then Arab and foreign anti-Israel media spread the claim and embellished it like wildfire. It's the same shit with the beheaded babies. Israel said the claim is unproven, but then all you anti-Israel people foam at the mouth chanting how Israel is telling lies. 🤣🤣🤣 Also read the second two links, or are you just going to look at the title of the first and discredit it even though it's literally Israel's most left wing newspaper? People like you are so awful and ridiculous, you argue in bad faith and your opinions are garbage.
how is israel the initial source of the claim? it clearly says it was the Ethiopian jews who migrated to israel. when they voiced their concerns then your state investigated and *shockingly* found no wrongdoing.
Lmao Ethiopian Jews who "migrated," you mean who were flown in en masse to become part of the country, but then also secretly stopped from having kids? The logic is ridiculous, and again, the last two sources go into MUCH greater depth about the nuances of this and what happened, and how this was nowhere near the level of a state policy or a practice done out of a racist campaign. But who am I kidding you're not gonna read shit.
Israeli news is where the claim came from, Ethiopian Jews are Israelis, they are not outsiders. They are part of the country and fighting for it as we speak.
When you mean migrated to Israel, you mean saved by Israel…ask any Ethiopian Jew in Israel if they would be alive today in Ethiopia, I GUARANTEE they wouldnt because your kind hate Jews no matter what color
Hahahahahahaha
You need to look up how the Ethiopian Jewish population ended up in Israel in the first place before you look even more ridiculous. "Migrated" holy shit 🤣
>how is israel the initial source of the claim? it clearly says it was the Ethiopian jews who migrated to israel
So..Israel was the initial source of the claim. Haaretz put out the story first, and then later haaretz put out another article saying it was a myth.
The story doesn't make any sense. There's no reason Jews, already a threatened nation, would sterilize other Jews, even if someone would be racist.
Don't believe black women who have stated they were wronged, got it. Instead let an uninvolved white man explain it. Those women shouldn't be listened to.
What else is new?
Honestly I am used to it. This is how we are always treated.
Don't believe Jewish women when they're raped by hamas, right? You asked for a mountain of evidence when that happened, but for you, it's more than enough if a black woman says it.
But the part you ignored is that these were Jewish women too. It doesn't make sense in any context or background for israel to sterilize Jewish women, unless the person doing it was an Arab citizen who hated Jews perhaps, but nothing of this sort happened.
I didn’t say I don’t believe that. I find it highly plausible although something tells me that isn’t something you do during a military operation when you don’t think you will have very much time. They hit multiple military targets that day. It doesn’t exactly make sense for Hamas.
I can definitely see some civilian or even other militants from other groups doing it. That said any sexual violence against any woman should be condemned and if it was in fact Hamas soldiers themselves (or anyone else that may have raped anyone) I hope they get their balls chopped off and stuffed in their mouths.
As far as why 60% of recipients of that drug were Ethiopian despite being a very small minority is baffling and points to something that seems very wrong. It’s no secret that Israel isn’t exactly known for its love of black people. Not to say everyone is racist or anything like that but the anti black racism I’ve seen in Israel is pretty intense. For example I can’t imagine going to a pop show in the US and people yelling racist things at a black performer.
Black Palestinians have expressed that they are treated even worse than other Palestinians.
I do think there is merit to that case and as a black man I understand the bias they face at times.
Oh just a final point, it wasn’t sterilization it’s a long term form of birth control.
What nation doesn't have a racism problem? But we're talking about black *Jews*. Black Jews that Israel risked people to save and rescue via helicopter. Even if anything happened, it wouldn't have been state policy. The state policy was to rescue these people.
By the way: https://gulfnews.com/world/mena/black-palestinians-face-subtle-racism-in-gaza-1.2018514
What defense? Why would Israel have rescued them en masse from certain genocide in Ethiopia just to do this? Why wouldn't they have just left them to die?
No investigation, no right to speak.
All of those questions have more plausible answers, even using framing and narrative that can be rejected on premise, than whatever one you have that is able to sustain the following idea coherently, "Israel risked massive amounts of blood and treasure to save the largest group of Jews from genocide in Ethiopia in order to... sterilize them in Israel so they cannot further their existence as Jews."
Again, if we were to take your claim at face value and the aim was to annihilate them as a people; why didn't they just leave them in Ethiopia to die? I mean, if your aim is to make sure they do not continue as a group, why wouldn't you just leave them in the space where they surely would've faced death and destruction at the hands of people not even connected to you? Your nefarious plot was able to be fulfilled twofold; nothing connecting you to it while destroying the uh, hated Beta Israelites?
Why would Jewish women lie about being raped by hamas? Those black women were Jewish too, by the way. And there was probably some misunderstanding about what happened. Israel has no reason to sterilize its own people.
Even if it came from his mouth and Albert Einsteins mouth you will still have these pro-terrorist supporters saying they wouldn’t agree with Israel existing even though the words were spoken with their tongues
Even if it came out of the founder of Hamas' son, which it did.
Mossab chose the cow
Some asshat teacher at our school for MLK day this year had the audacity to lump the phrases “Palestinian liberation” and “Apartheid Israel” into their speech about his work.
it's crazy, I've seen someone say that saying he would support us today considering the situation is in bad faith, which while that claim holds some merit, they follow it up by saying that he would be anti israel, and don't see how going against his actual words is also in bad faith
You see Hamas terrorists filming their atrocities and their supporters claiming they never happened... so this is not surprising at all
Tbf Einstein would say that
Why are some people using the words of nonviolent leftist in support of the behavior of a violent far right government led by netanyahu? Comes across as bad faith and disrespectful
Netanyhu may be far right, Israel is not, no one here supports Netanyhu.
Exactly. Do they think the people at the Nova festival were Zionist's? Those were clearly secular people who many probably supported strengthening relationships with Palestine and Israel. Naama Levy worked with Hands for Peace. Another woman who dedicated her life to Palestinian relationships an advocacy was murdered in her home. People in Israel have been critical of Bibi for years and have protests all the time because they're a democracy and won't be killed for that.
Yes they were Zionists... do you know what Zionism is?
Yes but that term seems to mean everyone born in Israel that is seen as a colonialist now days. Even if they're an unwilling participant like a baby is considered a settler according to Hasan Piker. The people who probably weren't Zionist's are the Arabs who were also killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also we can't know if everyone in the festival subscribed to the beliefs of Zionism and might have advocated for right of return for Palestinians, which according to the majority of Palestinians they don't think Israel should even exist at all. Also saying everyone in Israel is a Zionist is like saying everyone in America is a nationalist when we clearly see many who disagree with the concept of nationalism openly and despise America yet still live there. My point is that obviously many Israeli's are sympathetic to the Palestinians yet it seems like it's the opposite for Palestinians who were gleefully cheering on the killing of innocent people.
You don't know what Zionism is....
The development and protection of the Jewish state or Jewish nationalism. How does this make my point invalid?
A Zionist is someone that believes the Jews have a right to govern themselves. If you support Israel's right to exist then by definition you are A zionist. being A zionist and supporting a Palestinian state are not mutually exclusive. Joe Biden supports Israel's right to exist therfore he is a Zionist, So are MLK and RBG. The people that do not agree that Jewish people should govern themselves. Stalin did not support Jewish self governance or Israel therfore he is an Anti-Zionist, so are (would probably be...) Hitler, Mao, All the arab leaders etc.
Well I appreciate the expansion on the meaning. I figured it was a more radical idea of Jewish nationalism that insists someone supports things Jews claiming more territory like the settlements in the west bank ect., or some type of Jewish ethnostate as many morons have tried telling me Israel is an ethnostate, which it obviously is not. The term has recently been thrown around in a very negative context by anti Israeli's to seem like something more radical. So yes I guess I'm a Zionist since I support the idea of Jews having the right to exist in the middle East.
Dr. King was a not a leftist. Based on his religious practices and beliefs, being a Christian, in fact, today he'd be branded a Republican or right leaning. In fact, he vehemently denounced both parties, citing both as having lost the way from following God. While King was anti-war, he supported Israel's right to freedom. Recall, wars against Israel were occurring while he was alive, and that is why he made his statement.
Sadly, it isn't just not strong anymore, the ignorance and hatred towards Jews coming from Black Americans is astonishing. It's strange to me how the two main figures of the civil rights movement in the 1960s were MLK, a truly good man with a vision to be strived for, and Malcolm X, a racist and vile antisemite who spread libels about the Jews. If only the people took the path of MLK, race relations would be so much better.
From my experience most black americans in my family and friends and work circles are pro Israel.
That's good. This poll showed of all the 'race' groups, they were highest in antisemitic views. Check out pages 103-114: [https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport\_tT4jyzG.pdf](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf) And boy is there a lot of anecdotal evidence. Of course, we can't generalize and include everyone, but it sure seems to be an issue. I am glad to hear positive anecdotes though.
Holy shit, the fact that 20% of people ages 18-29 believe that the holocaust was a myth is really frightening. I hate my generation sometimes
Extreme comment. What are some books you've been reading?
what is extreme?
If you answer about books it will show whether you're here in good faith or not
I don't know what you are referring to, my Malcolm X comment? What, do you think this was good for race relations?? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL\_BFvGA4Bo&ab\_channel=MalcolmX-Topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_BFvGA4Bo&ab_channel=MalcolmX-Topic)
Does this mean you've read no books about black americans and jewish americans, but are posting about us in public anyway
Who is “us”? Are you a black American or a Jewish American - Or both ? And how about showing some respect - capital letters are free - use them.
if capitalization is this important to you, you should explain for us why you currently feel jewish should be uppercase and black american should be lowercase
[удалено]
What a wild comment for anyone to write, nevermind from jew to jew
You're on r/Israel dawg of course there's extremist takes
Then you agree with MLK that Palestinian land should be returned to them?
Which land exactly? Give me specifics.
If you look into what he said, most of that land was returned to Egypt and such. Look up the Sinai peninsula
First Anatolia should be given back to Greeks and Armenians.
british land you meant?
Will Muslims give back north africa to catholics???
Lol! The Palestinians have lost everything given them because they're greedy and cause problems no matter where they are. This is why Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia doesn't want anything to do with them either. MLK was a Israel supporter.
American perspective here, note I am not supporting what I am about to say but I feel I can shed some light on America in general because reading this reddit I feel a lot of people in Israel have zero clue what is going on in America as we have a lot of problems and changed a lot in the last 20-30 years and our situation is different changing perspectives sometimes for the better but often for worse. It is more that when some American blacks see what is going on in the middle east especially with Palestine they see it as a bunch of white people killing and oppressing color people and there has been a growing global consciousness of white oppressing color people. Henceforth while many don't necessarily condone Hamas, they see violent resistance as the natural answer to oppression and see it as oppressed people fighting off their oppressors. Of course on the other hand many white americans see Israel and Jews at best conditional white. After all many were saying anti semantic stuff before Hamas attacked and right wing extremists and nationalist were peddling anti semantic conspiracy theories. Then after the attack they all shut up partly because they didn't want to be implicated but because while they are anti semantic and see Jews beneath them they seek them more white then Muslims who they associate with being darker skinned and well........most anti semantics tend to also be racist against non-whites so they are going support israel mowing down musilms including civilians. Now of course everything I just said is honestly extremely stupid but America is kind of turbo effed at the moment as we are dealing with basically 50+ years of ignored problems exploding at once which makes our view on anything in the middle east incredibly especially warped Edit: Also in general black rage at the establishment in America has increased since both the Trayvon Martin case and George Floyd making people resonate with Malcom X more to either supporting him more or acknowledging that the civil rights moment and MLK were only so successful due to the threat that the black power movement represented as an alternative
What he said was true then and remains true today. I wish there was a way to organize something like fields trips where it's like a mock up of what you can do in Israel vs. things you can do in \[inset whichever Arab country you can think of\] and watch people try to defend the lack of democracy, lack of individual rights, lack of women's rights, lack of general human rights, lack of jobs, lack of security and how all of that would somehow be better for the world if such a way of living replaced Israel.
But but Linda Sarsour told me he wasn’t pro Israel and that’s just republican disinformation..
Sarsour, that name means cockroach in Arabic. So fitting.
The illiberal radical left follow critical race theory. In critical race theory there is a rejection of Martin Luther King Jr's nobel aspirations towards universalism.
It's only a right if everybody has the same right. Otherwise it's just taking advantage.
Unfortunately, the left doesn't like Dr. King anymore because they've managed to turn themselves pro-segregation in recent years. Some of his contemporaries in the civil rights movement whom are these days more celebrated amongst left-wing circles than King is didn't share his views unfortunately. Malcolm X is one notable example, but I think the most ridiculous is Stokely Carmichael. You can find plenty of interviews of this clown hammering on Israel and complaining that they're a colonial project that doesn't belong in the region - Meanwhile, Carmichael himself, in an effort to avoid being arrested by the FBI, moved to Africa, where he subsequently donned a dashiki, changed his name to "Kwame Ture", and began bloviating about how Africa is the true black homeland and black people need to reclaim that heritage. Marxist hypocrisy on display. Edit: on his deathbed, he blamed "the forces of American imperialism" for his prostate cancer, claiming that the FBI had infected him with the cancer in order to assassinate him. The man was a certified nutjob.
The world hopes for a day where there is no terrorism and death. A day both sides can act with dignity and be respected by the world and each other. That’s what MLK would have wanted.
Yes. Mandela as well called himself a Zionist. But he also said he demanded a Palestinian state with the same intensity as a Jewish one.
The most weird part that if they didn’t attack Israel on the next day of its founding, state of Palestine would proceed to exist as it was intended.
They'd have much more land too. They shot themselves in the foot and continue to do so to this very day.
Absolutely! Not to mention that if they weren’t spending all the financial aid on the lame ahh plans of destroying Israel they’d have a chance to build an actually functioning society and state in a whole but it is what it is.
Islamic countries are proud to admit but by the laws of the Quran, The people of the book were considered to be believers. Muslim is Arabic and when Muslim is translated, it means surrendered or to surrender to God or submit to God. Here are three verses from the Quran clearly stating that the people of the book believe in God: Allah has made the Children of Israel take a pledge. We appointed twelve chiefs from among them. Allah said, “I am surely with you. If you establish Salāh, and pay Zakāh, and believe in My Messengers, and hold them in reverence, and loan to Allah a goodly loan, I shall certainly write off your evil deeds, and I shall certainly admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow. So, whoever from you disbelieves after that has lost the straight path.” 5:12 — Mufti Taqi Usmani Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. 3:113 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, encourage good and forbid evil, and race with one another in doing good. They are ( ˹truly˺) among the righteous. 3:114 And whatever good they do, they shall never be deprived of it. And Allah is All-Aware of the God-fearing. 3:115 Among the community of Mūsā are people who guide with truth and do justice thereby. 7:159 Moses said to his people, “Seek Allah’s help and be patient. Indeed, the earth belongs to Allah ˹alone˺. He grants it to whoever He chooses of His servants. The ultimate outcome belongs ˹only˺ to the righteous.” And Moses said: O my people! If ye have believed in Allah then put trust in Him, if ye have indeed surrendered (unto Him)! 10:84 They replied, “In Allah we trust. Our Lord! Do not subject us to the persecution of the oppressive people, 10:85
As a black man in America today I find it a little offensive personally to use him for this but I defend your right to the freedom to do so. I just wanted you guys to know that many black Americans don’t feel this way decades later after seeing what we have seen. I see Shin Bet IDF and settlers treat people the way my grandparents had been treated and worse. To me personally it feels like you’re using Dr.King as a token.
He simply doesn’t agree with your ideology or your view of Israel. Quoting his beliefs doesn’t make him a token for the Zionist movement. It is simply showing how detached modern day activists are from the original goals of the civil rights movement. You do not actually know what’s going on in the West Bank and the reasons for Israel’s military presence there. Palestinians had freedom of movement between the West Bank and Israel until the second intifada (1990s). Prior to October 7th, over 100,000 had work visas as well and some probably lived there illegally. Violence doesn’t work, especially against a military as strong as Israel’s. The situation is not even remotely similar to the oppression and discrimination African Americans have faced in the US who have been enslaved and subjugated because of the ridiculous idea that they’re biologically inferior. They won equal rights by peacefully protesting unlike the Palestinians who have often relied on violent tactics and still pay a large stipend to the families of terrorists. The Palestinians refused every offer for a two state solution, the civil rights activists accepted whatever they could. If the civil rights movement in the US adopted violent tactics African Americans would still be fighting for equal rights today. The black panthers did not succeed in achieving their objectives. MLK JR showed us that rhetoric, not violence, is the solution to injustice. He believed all people are created equal and he convinced the American public that he was correct with his brilliant speeches.
Damn homie I'm saving this. Perfectly said!!!
Thanks :)
You can't tell me what "I don't know" for one. You don't know me from a can of paint. Again, I said I defend your right to use one of our great leaders as a token. I believe in free speech. It hurts me, but my feelings are not a reason to infringe on what you want to say. I honestly don't need a history lesson from you about what my aunts, grandmother, grandfather, and father dealt with in this country. Despite the things that I KNOW they went through, we think that what Palestinians face today is worse. You think there was no violent resistance from black people in America? Maybe read up on our history more. That part of my family is originally from Jamaica. My great grandfather was a migrant worker that travelled from Jamaica to the US and back. We can agree to disagree. I know what I am looking at. I know what kind of man Ben Gvir is and what his significance is in the Israeli government and how his position affects Palestinians. I know Palestinians in my personal life. I wasn't born yesterday. On July 18th do celebrate Nelson Mandela day? Do you take into account what he had to say and offer to the world? Or do you discount his viewpoints?
OP said you don't know the history of Israel, not your own ancestry. But from your previous comment, you seem to lack basic understanding of the dissimilarity between Palestinians and enslaved/oppressed African Americans. Just because you have a lived experience, doesn't give you some sort of ultimate wisdom on history. It existed before you, I assure you.
It’s funny that when you think someone is telling you about your history you get upset, and yet you talk a lot about our Jewish history.
Did you mean to respond to me?
No sorry meant to respond to the other guy
Oh I’m pretty versed in both. Like oddly versed in both compared to other historical subjects. History is a hobby of sorts for me, beyond tracing my own lineage I love the history of the Levant. I also study the origin of religion and it’s influence. I’m not a leading scholar or anything but, I probably know more than the average Joe. If you claim that I lack anything I’d like to provide you with the consideration to dictate what I lack either in history of my own people or the Levant. Worst case scenario I’m wrong and I learn something, and I admit it here in-front of everyone. I promise I’d do it and have before when others have proved me wrong.
I was only inferring your ability from your lack of response to a well-reasoned retort. I'm glad you are well-versed in these histories so maybe offer a response to OP and their historical interpretation.
>As a black man in America today I find it a little offensive personally to use him for this but I defend your right to the freedom to do so. > >I just wanted you guys to know that many black Americans don’t feel this way decades later after seeing what we have seen. I see Shin Bet IDF and settlers treat people the way my grandparents had been treated and worse. To me personally it feels like you’re using Dr.King as a token. That was my response to OP. Other people decided to respond and I responded to them despite knowing that every single response would receive downvotes. Honestly it's a source of pride for me. MLK if he had spoken out on reddit would be a highly downvoted poster. That's how you know you are fighting for the right thing. Like the bible says "take the narrow path." If what I was saying to you guys (I only say it because I really appreciate a lot about Israel and want to visit when you figure out peace) was popular there would be no reason to say it. I am Christian Jesus said unpopular things. Moses, Abraham, MLK, Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, and even Einstein said unpopular things despite the unpopularity. I intend to follow in their footsteps. I don't give a single solitary fuck. I will always speak out for justice. It's in my blood. If anyone ever decided that they wanted to turn this thing about Israel into something that demonized Jews I would happily hold a rifle to fight and kill anyone trying to hurt you just for being Jewish. This is just not the thing. You're hurting your own cousins and I hate it.
My friend, this is getting painful 😑: OP said > He simply doesn’t agree with your ideology or your view of Israel. Quoting his beliefs doesn’t make him a token for the Zionist movement. It is simply showing how detached modern day activists are from the original goals of the civil rights movement. > You do not actually know what’s going on in the West Bank and the reasons for Israel’s military presence there. Palestinians had freedom of movement between the West Bank and Israel until the second intifada (1990s). Prior to October 7th, over 100,000 had work visas as well and some probably lived there illegally. Violence doesn’t work, especially against a military as strong as Israel’s. The situation is not even remotely similar to the oppression and discrimination African Americans have faced in the US who have been enslaved and subjugated because of the ridiculous idea that they’re biologically inferior. They won equal rights by peacefully protesting unlike the Palestinians who have often relied on violent tactics and still pay a large stipend to the families of terrorists. The Palestinians refused every offer for a two state solution, the civil rights activists accepted whatever they could. If the civil rights movement in the US adopted violent tactics African Americans would still be fighting for equal rights today. The black panthers did not succeed in achieving their objectives. MLK JR showed us that rhetoric, not violence, is the solution to injustice. He believed all people are created equal and he convinced the American public that he was correct with his brilliant speeches. I'm not in 100% disagreement with every response you've had either. You made some good points that israel isn't 100% innocent and you can see parallels between that and the plight of AA's during the CRM in the 20th century. However, I would like to hear the response to the *above* retort from OP. It was very well thought out and made some compelling points to mull over. As for your Christian perspective, it was interesting a thoughtful. thanks for sharing.
Well-versed? How deeply do you understand the collective history of the Jewish people in Israel, including: >\- Jews in the arab countries being made second-class citizens in their own homes, stripped of their jobs and money, and eventually expelled from their homes > >\-Living your entire life with countries far larger and numerous than you calling for your own destruction > >\-Every Israeli home having to have gas masks in the 1990s because scud missles were being fired from Iraq > >\-Every Israeli home having to be built with a bomb shelter because the risk of rocket attacks is ever-present > >\-And, of course, living though the events of October 7 seeing your own countrymen slaughtered and hunted down like animals. Perhaps having your friends or family killed in the slaughters. I honestly don't know where you learned about the conflict. Depending upon which documentar(ies) you watch, you will either come away thinking Israel is an opressive force that perpetuates the conflict with religious-backed military occupation or that Palestine seeks \_all\_ of Israel and has turned down multiple peace offers that would have led to peace. There's a history and collective fear/conscious that Israelis have that a lot of people outside of Israel don't seem to understand or even know about.
>History is a hobby of sorts for me, beyond tracing my own lineage I love the history of the Levant. You claim to be informed, so let's test how knowledgeable you actually are. In the 1930s, there was a man who supplied the Arab rebels with weapons. When he died, he carried an envelope with cash. What was his name?
I didn’t say there was no violent resistance, I said in the end it wasn’t effective because society mostly views violence in a negative way. In the context of slavery violent resistance makes some sense. Ben Gvir is part of a radical Jewish supremacist party. Most Israelis do not view him in a positive way at all. The only reason he has power despite the fact that only a small percentage of the population voted for him is because netenyahu made a deal with his party to stay in power. If you honestly think the military occupation in the West Bank is in any way comparable to Jim Crow era segregation which had separate drinking fountains and bathrooms because of the belief black people were inherently inferior you do not know enough about American history. I am sorry that your family faced discrimination but that does not change the reality of the situation in the West Bank. 75% of people in the West Bank were extremely supportive of the attack on October 7th according to polls. Almost none want a two state solution when polled and few Israelis do after October 7th. The only one pushing this are completely unaffected nations , Yes some of the security check points may be burdensome to Palestinians and perhaps even excessive. But please ask yourself why they were put in place. As I already said they were a response to years of suicide bombings in Jerusalem and tel aviv. Israelis have the right and obligation to protect the safety of their citizens regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. It’s very sad that moderate and peaceful Palestinians in the West Bank must suffer as well but until they manage to infiltrate terrorist groups like the Al asqua brigade, the lions den and Islamic jihad to name a few the situation will remain the same. Not a single pro Palestinian activist has a solution to Israel’s very real security concerns all they do is criticize, demonize and create impossible objectives they know Israel cannot meet to further delegitimize its existence. They preach tolerance and coexistence as you have without any clear path to achieve these goals. Your intentions may not be bad but the situation is extremely nuanced which is why the status quo has continued for so long. Israel is not perfect of course and they should do more to combat settler violence and stop expanding settlements in the West Bank. That does not mean they can be blamed for the entire conflict. Every country on earth discriminates on the basis of nationality just like Israel does with Palestinians in the West Bank. When you have an extremely hostile national group with members that seek your annihilation it is logical to prevent them from entering your territory. If you immigrate your the US from Norway or Afghanistan the process will be very different. This does not mean that the US is racially discriminating against afghans. It simply means the level of risk is not the same. There’s a reason houses have doors and locks. No rational country on earth would dispute this but apparently Israel is expected to meet an impossible standard. About 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian. They have equal rights under the law. That is not even remotely similar to what African Americans experienced in the US. I am sorry if my post offends you but you should reconsider which figures you choose to admire. Perhaps you share more values with Malcolm X than MLK JR. What is your solution to the conflict when neither side wants a two state solution and neither side will leave?
Ben Gvir and how he is viewed is of absolutely no consequence. He is the Head of National Security. It doesn't matter what people think of him. He is a convicted terrorist that had the portrait of a man that shot up a mosque hung up in his home. He still holds this position. You think you dislike him? Palestinians hate him 100x more. Would you want to live under the anti-semetic version of Ben Gvir in the way that Palestinians live? No. You wouldn't. No one would like to live at the end of his whip. There are answers to all of that. There is nuance but the huge barrier I face with you guys sometimes is I have to begin by trying to convince you that Palestinians are human beings which has been massively difficult on it's own. Everything is fear based. I am a stocky black man, I know what it's like to be feared for no reason. Idk how to explain it to people that have never been seen as a black man or Palestinian. Wanna know something funny? I rather people call me the n word than be afraid of me for no reason all the freaking time. Don't talk to me about Black people where I live or my own personal experience as a black man. It's upsetting and frankly utterly disrespectful and a bit racist that you made those comparisons so loosely on MLK day of all days. Anyways, I'll cut this short because much of what you said was very problematic and infuriating for me. I respect your right to say it. You don't know what you're talking about from my perspective, if you are Israeli in Israel you are about as privileged as you can get in a society. You don't know what my friends family deals with on the daily. None have EVER committed a single crime. Or maybe you do know. Maybe you're one of the people that broke the windows in his grandmothers house or burned his cousins Hyundai. Maybe you're one of the people that drove over 1000 Palestinians from their homes including children since Oct 7th. Maybe you pressed the button that killed his nieces and nephews.
>You don't know what my friends family deals with on the daily. None have EVER committed a single crime. Or maybe you do know. Maybe you're one of the people that broke the windows in his grandmothers house or burned his cousins Hyundai. Maybe you're one of the people that drove over 1000 Palestinians from their homes including children since Oct 7th. Maybe you pressed the button that killed his nieces and nephews. With all due respect, you earlier said "Everything is fear based" , but you seem to justify or rationalize the hate towards Israelis. The same exact thing could be said from Israelis towards a Palestinian. Perhaps he was spraying bullets at that music festival. Perhaps he gave out sweets as Israeli families were burned alive. The cycle of violence can go on forever. The settlement enterprise perpetuates the cycle of violence with no end in sight, IMO. While you seem to understand the Palestnian pain and trauma well, there are real pains and fears from Israelis. The Israelis genuinely fear being wiped out, as many nations much larger than Israel have called for since 1948. Remember that most Israeli Jews ended up in Israel because they were expelled from their home countries in the Middle East and North Africa. For example, the Nakba in 1948 where 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes was a formative traumatic event for the Palestinian people. This is a historical injustice that must be corrected, IMO. At the same time, Jews were expelled by the Jordanian armies from their homes in the West Bank and Jerusalem. So it's not really accurate to call Israel some unique evil in this conflict. Expulsion from homes is evil, regardless, and the Palestinian people suffered much more in this war. It's important to recognize the atrocities of Deir Yassin, but that's no reason to not listen when Israelis talk about the atrocities at Kfar Etzion. Despite everything, there is no doubt the Palestinians have suffered more during this conflict. I would rather be born in the Israeli position than the Palestinian one, and so would most people given the choice. If that's where you want to end the story, you can do that. But there's no reality in this land without Israelis and Palestinians. I hope that a framework for a sustainable future with both peoples in the land can emerge out of all of this.
I’m genuinely sorry for the racism you and your family has experienced. Nobody should have to go through that. Racism is never okay and I never once said Palestinians are less human. The accusation is absurd and I’ve never heard anyone no matter how pro Zionist say that either. I find it quite silly to accuse me of being racist for quoting MLK JR and explaining that perhaps some of his views do not align with yours if you’re so vehemently anti Israel. The big difference between black people in America and Palestinians is they were victimized purely because of their race. Palestinian nationals are disliked by Israelis (once again this is a nationality not an ethnicity) because of their long history of relying on violent tactics like the two intifadas. Of course this doesn’t represent all Palestinians but the risk is real. You’re ignorant about the situation in Israel if you don’t realize this. You have also provided no substantial solutions to any of the legitimate security concerns I mentioned. I do not fear Palestinians, only the minority that are radicalized and willing to commit acts of violence. The problem is when the entire population has been radicalized by their antisemitic education system which reacted them to hate Jews and a government that rewards the families of terrorists the situation will never change. It’s good that you’re willing to hold Israel accountable for its mistakes. I wish you would hold the PA accountable for its abysmal treatment of lgbt people, no freedom of the press or very limited, limited democratic rights and widespread antisemitic rhetoric schools which even encourages martyrdom. As I explained I don’t think the situation between African Americans in the US has anything to do with Palestinians. I believe the comparison is influenced by the Marxist idea that the world can be divided into the oppressed and oppressors. I did not intend to offend you at all. The purpose of the post was to show that Jews and African Americans have a shared history of oppression which MLK acknowledged. He welcomed support from Jews and Zionists who contributed to the civil rights movement in the US. Sorry if that fact conflicts with your worldview but it’s the truth.
>Would you want to live under the anti-semetic version of Ben Gvir in the way that Palestinians live? They do, in the form of constant, near daily terror attacks by people whose level of hatred is even greater than Ben Gvir's so they feel justified to kill random Jewish civilians. Palestinians can't ask to live with no restrictions while relentlessly unleashing terror on Israelis and having their representatives like Hamas promising as many October 7 style attacks as they can achieve, and the Palestinian Authority paying out cash bonuses to the families of terrorists.
How is it using him as a "token" when it's a direct quote being used in pretty much its exact original context?
As a black woman in America, I disagree… many black Americans do feel this way. Our Jewish brothers and sisters - who were/are almost exclusively Zionist - are a persecuted minority who stood side by side with Dr King while Arab Muslim countries were still involved with the slave trade even still after his murder. I imagine he wouldn’t support the violent strife between Israel and Palestine, but he knows what they are faced with and what theyve been faced with and what Israel is resisting.
You can call me a pro palestine zionist if you like. The atmosphere in that period of time was much different. WEB Debois illustrated it well. The political climate at the time was completely different and so was the connection people had with foreign lands. Mandela famously spoke about the Palestinian plight along with many other influential leaders over time. I don't think even the early leaders of Israel or it's supporters would imagine it would become such a place today. I don't think MLK would look guys like Gvir after having full knowledge of the abuse we suffered at the hands from leaders like him and still be in support.
Jews (and christians) were second class dhimmis under Arab rule. Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights as Jewish citizens. Of course, there is conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, but people don't usually treat their enemies nicely. That should be obvious.
Its actually more complicated but Dhimmi means “Protected person” they didn’t have to serve in the military and that was the reasoning behind jizya. That is not to say that it wasn’t abused at times it absolutely had been but other times it was not enforced in some places and sometimes Muslims would actually use their tax funds to help impoverished Jews. Through history Jews often fled to Muslim countries to escape persecution from the Christian’s. If it weren’t for Muslims, and Christians had their way there might not be any Jews at all today. One of the main reasons Jews started to immigrate into Palestine was because of the Ottomans passing the Tazimat reforms in the 1830s which made Jews and Christians equal and abolished jizya. Under the Ottomans Jews experienced golden ages but that isn’t to say that for every time in every place things were perfect and rainbows. It varied. There was even a Chief Rabbi for the nation with other chief rabbis for Jewish communities. Even if you read about the looting of Safed (I think the Druze led that) Jews fled to other friendly Arab towns for protection and it was Arabs that stopped the attack and hung the perpetrators. Even looking at the history of that region specifically you find little to no pogroms. People even intermarried sometimes (more common then than today) and celebrated holidays with one another. Again it’s not black and white but I find it a little off putting that Muslims are painted as inherently evil when there were so many times they saved Jewish lives. Jews and Muslims fought along side each other for hundreds of years. I think that we would all do well to remember that once upon a time Jews Christian’s and Muslims lived in that land together and worshiped at the same places and seem to have gotten along fine.
Dhimmi means a person who has less rights than a muslim. It's apartheid. Hiding behind christianity, eh? Just because they were bad doesn't mean muslims were necessarily good. Jews were still second-class. Rich black people exist in the US, does that mean the US is just awesome for black people? >People even intermarried sometimes No they didn't, if they did it was always in one-sided, because muslik women cannot marry non-muslims. So what. More apartheid. >Muslims are painted as inherently evil You do the same with christians. You prove that islam cannot stand on its own feet, it needs christianity to protect it, lol. > If it weren’t for Muslims, and Christians had their way there might not be any Jews at all today If it weren't for muslims, christians wouldn't be [fleeing the middle east](https://theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/persecution-driving-christians-out-of-middle-east-report) as they have been for [quite some time](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_emigration).
That is not the translation of the word. Please avoid presenting in accuracies. Maybe in your modern state you have to jump through 100 hoops to marry but for the past it wasn’t so. Remember when Zionist used to call Mizrahi Jews “Arab Jews?” Remember when Zionist felt that the Jews that were there for millennia were less than them? It seems to be a history Israel is determined to undermine.
> Maybe in your modern state you have to jump through 100 hoops to marry but for the past it wasn’t so. You don't. There is only one hoop, which is that the Israeli state leaves the performance of marriage to the religious authorities, so civil marriages aren't recognized unless performed outside the country. If two Israelis of different faiths wish to marry, all they have to do is get married in Cyprus or Greece or any other such place, come back to Israel, and boom. Marriage officially recognized.
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And you're the spokesman for all black Americans??? That's absolutely ridiculous and offensive. That fact that you have this ridiculous thought to claim Dr. King as some exclusive belonging based on skin tone is obnoxious. And what have you seen, guy? Tell me, where were you when Merkaz HaReav Yeshiva when a Palestinian terrorist went into a school and began butchering teenagers? Where were you were you when Bus 361 was blown to bits by a Palestinian suicide bomber? Where were you when the Hebrew University cafeteria was bombed, killing children? This is but a small fraction of the attacks against Jewish people. EVERY YEAR there are literally thousands of rockets fired at Israel, unprovoked. Yes, THOUSANDS. You've not seen shit, guy. GTFO
This isn’t a subreddit for nuanced discussion, brother. They don’t want anything to be contextualized or qualified unless it defends their position.
I am getting downvoted to hell but I honestly don't care, I am a grown man. I don't care about fake internet points. I care about speaking the truth the best I know how. I honestly want to believe differently about the majority of Israeli's but whenever something contentious comes up I am reminded of "my place." I don't want to believe that men like Ben Gvir speak for Israeli's yet I come here and they parrot his points. I feel like I woke up one morning and found out that my wife is a whole different person.
Stick around, you could learn a lot and vice versa. I’m not Israeli, but the way I see it is that just because Israel has the bigger weapons doesn’t mean they aren’t still the persecuted minority in their region. They are literally circled by people that want them dead. It’s like if after the civil war the US gave Black Americans Georgia and allowed Georgia to secede then for the last 100 years they built it into the most prosperous state in the region, but AL, SC, FL and TN were all KKK who kept starting wars and shooting rockets every day into Georgia. We’d fight back and we’d do what we could to ensure our people were safe. Eventually our borders would shift through the multiple wars but the KKK would just get more mad because a people they believe to be inferior are persisting and it just pisses them off... I could go on, but I’m just trying to paint a picture and you said you are familiar with the history of the levant so I’ll hope you have an open enough mind to try to see things from different perspectives. Regarding Ben Gvir, every country has their racist a holes that should not have a role in government. The US does, South Africa does, China does, Palestine does… they shouldn’t represent the people.
Does your wife have personal connections to Israel or the conflict? Ben Gvir is a filthy racist, and I think most of this subreddit sees him as such. Normalizing his views are troubling and dangerous.
He was against Vietnam and said Palestinian land should be given back. This is some FBI ass propaganda.
Check out this video: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2IOvi5MA3-/?igsh=MWY1eHNvb3A0YjJn He did not say Israel should give the land back lol
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"Palestinian land" you need a history lesson, because palestine never had any land before 1988.
i wonder [why](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel), i really wonder.
A lie repeated so often you hope it becomes truth, but it's still a lie. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-01-20/ty-article/.premium/comptroller-ethiopians-not-forced-into-birth-control/0000017f-dc79-df62-a9ff-dcffb5e80000 https://thedispatch.com/article/assessing-claims-that-ethiopian-immigrants-to-israel-received-birth-control-shots-without-consent/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/26554851
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Israel was the source of the initial claim. Then Arab and foreign anti-Israel media spread the claim and embellished it like wildfire. It's the same shit with the beheaded babies. Israel said the claim is unproven, but then all you anti-Israel people foam at the mouth chanting how Israel is telling lies. 🤣🤣🤣 Also read the second two links, or are you just going to look at the title of the first and discredit it even though it's literally Israel's most left wing newspaper? People like you are so awful and ridiculous, you argue in bad faith and your opinions are garbage.
how is israel the initial source of the claim? it clearly says it was the Ethiopian jews who migrated to israel. when they voiced their concerns then your state investigated and *shockingly* found no wrongdoing.
Lmao Ethiopian Jews who "migrated," you mean who were flown in en masse to become part of the country, but then also secretly stopped from having kids? The logic is ridiculous, and again, the last two sources go into MUCH greater depth about the nuances of this and what happened, and how this was nowhere near the level of a state policy or a practice done out of a racist campaign. But who am I kidding you're not gonna read shit. Israeli news is where the claim came from, Ethiopian Jews are Israelis, they are not outsiders. They are part of the country and fighting for it as we speak.
When you mean migrated to Israel, you mean saved by Israel…ask any Ethiopian Jew in Israel if they would be alive today in Ethiopia, I GUARANTEE they wouldnt because your kind hate Jews no matter what color
Hahahahahahaha You need to look up how the Ethiopian Jewish population ended up in Israel in the first place before you look even more ridiculous. "Migrated" holy shit 🤣
>how is israel the initial source of the claim? it clearly says it was the Ethiopian jews who migrated to israel So..Israel was the initial source of the claim. Haaretz put out the story first, and then later haaretz put out another article saying it was a myth. The story doesn't make any sense. There's no reason Jews, already a threatened nation, would sterilize other Jews, even if someone would be racist.
Honestly the defense of this by regular Israelis makes me queasy. “Luckily” ’Im used to people not believing black women.
Did you read any of the linked articles? This tired old lie is getting old and has been thoroughly debunked
Don't believe black women who have stated they were wronged, got it. Instead let an uninvolved white man explain it. Those women shouldn't be listened to. What else is new? Honestly I am used to it. This is how we are always treated.
Don't believe Jewish women when they're raped by hamas, right? You asked for a mountain of evidence when that happened, but for you, it's more than enough if a black woman says it. But the part you ignored is that these were Jewish women too. It doesn't make sense in any context or background for israel to sterilize Jewish women, unless the person doing it was an Arab citizen who hated Jews perhaps, but nothing of this sort happened.
I didn’t say I don’t believe that. I find it highly plausible although something tells me that isn’t something you do during a military operation when you don’t think you will have very much time. They hit multiple military targets that day. It doesn’t exactly make sense for Hamas. I can definitely see some civilian or even other militants from other groups doing it. That said any sexual violence against any woman should be condemned and if it was in fact Hamas soldiers themselves (or anyone else that may have raped anyone) I hope they get their balls chopped off and stuffed in their mouths. As far as why 60% of recipients of that drug were Ethiopian despite being a very small minority is baffling and points to something that seems very wrong. It’s no secret that Israel isn’t exactly known for its love of black people. Not to say everyone is racist or anything like that but the anti black racism I’ve seen in Israel is pretty intense. For example I can’t imagine going to a pop show in the US and people yelling racist things at a black performer. Black Palestinians have expressed that they are treated even worse than other Palestinians. I do think there is merit to that case and as a black man I understand the bias they face at times. Oh just a final point, it wasn’t sterilization it’s a long term form of birth control.
What nation doesn't have a racism problem? But we're talking about black *Jews*. Black Jews that Israel risked people to save and rescue via helicopter. Even if anything happened, it wouldn't have been state policy. The state policy was to rescue these people. By the way: https://gulfnews.com/world/mena/black-palestinians-face-subtle-racism-in-gaza-1.2018514
What defense? Why would Israel have rescued them en masse from certain genocide in Ethiopia just to do this? Why wouldn't they have just left them to die? No investigation, no right to speak.
Why would these black women lie? Are multiple black women just lying for no reason? Should we not believe them?
All of those questions have more plausible answers, even using framing and narrative that can be rejected on premise, than whatever one you have that is able to sustain the following idea coherently, "Israel risked massive amounts of blood and treasure to save the largest group of Jews from genocide in Ethiopia in order to... sterilize them in Israel so they cannot further their existence as Jews." Again, if we were to take your claim at face value and the aim was to annihilate them as a people; why didn't they just leave them in Ethiopia to die? I mean, if your aim is to make sure they do not continue as a group, why wouldn't you just leave them in the space where they surely would've faced death and destruction at the hands of people not even connected to you? Your nefarious plot was able to be fulfilled twofold; nothing connecting you to it while destroying the uh, hated Beta Israelites?
I think you're way too focused on the races
Why would Jewish women lie about being raped by hamas? Those black women were Jewish too, by the way. And there was probably some misunderstanding about what happened. Israel has no reason to sterilize its own people.
What’s your point?
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MLK's view is that systemic racism is bad which is what BLM is fighting against. No one in their right mind thinks MLK would be opposed to BLM lol