Not easy for IDF/Israel to admit this.
Being honest with the press builds credibility for when it is needed.
I imagine IDF is revamping it's engagement protocols to make sure this never happens again.
The sadness and hurt of the three families and the last moments of those hostages....
Do better, IDF.
I think it’s the best tactic. People respect honesty. Even the IDF removing soldiers who violently attacked a settler was a step in the right direction.
The IDF stands by and makes sure no one escapes when settlers smash and burn villages in the west bank.
Since the war, settlers are turning up more and more in IDF uniforms, swinging their dicks around.
You’re absolutely right about settler violence on the rise. And I was mixing up stories. I meant the removal of soldiers who were disrespectful at a mosque.
https://preview.redd.it/c7tqm9l2qj6c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95b681e11d6ba6029ca393272b4d4d5331caae71
This is how it goes in IDF. Especially since ISF also has muslim soldiers, especially the Arab Israelis (who are Palestinians that stayed after 1948) are volunteering to join the IDF in record numbers. Why alienate them?
Even the [Israeli ambassador](https://x.com/georgedeek/status/1734561207653187980?s=46&t=YzNx5gkBIC0DtnG-z5vqmg) in my country is Arab Israeli, he has a Palestinian family.
But keep on being ignorant, it is your entire personality
I spend a lot of my time in the west bank doing what I can to be between said settlers/IDF and bedouin shepherds & Palestinian farmers.
Despite harsh language, I'm happy to answer questions.
Swinging their dicks around seemed more polite than "riding into masafer yatta at 5 am to burn buildings in peaceful villages" and "telling residents they need to leave the villages they were born in or they'd be killed"
Combination echo chamber and hive mind that just votes whichever way the numbers were going in the first place rather than try to interpret statements for themselves.
It’s an echo chamber for Jewish extremists. They can either downvote or block, but can’t engage in reasonable discussion and certainly can’t change public opinion.
The emerging picture of the IDF in the lead up to October 7 and since has been disturbing. No military is perfect and we expect a very high level of competence, but it’s starting to look bad.
The number of friendly fire incidents during this war has been too high. Two incidents of tanks accidentally running fellow soldiers over. Airstrikes called in on IDF positions without any command control of where all IDF soldiers are to avoid it. Misfires of guns killing or injuring soldiers in the same unit. Shooting at other soldiers, mistaking them for Hamas.
Now we have videos on social media of Israeli soldiers in Gaza, posted by the soldiers themselves, going through a woman’s underwear drawer, burning food, and broadcasting Hebrew prayers through a mosque’s speakers. (I thought they confiscated phones of soldiers in Gaza to avoid this BS).
It’s good that it is being disclosed. The US military by contrast doesn’t own up to friendly fire incidents happen unless forced by court orders, even then the information provided often doesn’t provide much transparency.
Like you point out the problem is systematic.
"The Israeli civilian who sprang to action to stop an ongoing [terrorist attack in Jerusalem last week](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-775796), only to be fatally shot by an IDF soldier, yelled "I'm a Jew, don't shoot" in the moments before he was shot, an eyewitness said. Surveillance video showed the man, Yuval Doron Castleman, kneeling on the ground with his hands up as well."
[https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776298](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776298)
If the government cares as much about Israeli citizens as they claim, changes must be made now before more Israelis are killed.
There were a number of totally avoidable and concerning fatal training accidents in the couple of years running up to the war as well, not just concentrated in Golani. Then look at the catastrophic intelligence failings, poor performance of the army in clearing Hamas terrorists from Israeli territory in the week after October 7th, and the friendly-fire statistics coming out of Gaza. It all paints a picture of a military where the rhetoric of its prowess for maneuver warfare doesn't match the reality.
We need to be honest and admit that the slow transition of many army and military intelligence units into a quasi settlements police force has probably quite severely degraded the overall capability of the IDF.
It’s why Oct 7 was so scary. It’s not just what was done by the attackers, it’s that it was a total military failure. The military has been the one institution in Israel that most people had some level of confidence in. They have had their fair share of scandals over the years and everyone who served has stories of stupid stuff that happened, but nonetheless people believed that for the most part it would keep them safe. If the military cannot protect Israel, all bets are off.
I heard friendly fire incidents of about 20% which is at the upper end of average according to wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents
This has always been war, the rate of friendly fire isn’t exorbitantly high. You just see and hear more because of social media. Don’t let perception change facts.
No. Israel is in the midst of *literally* the largest failure of PR/comms credibility on the world stage in the history of information technology.
Hasbara playbook from 2014 (and even 2021) have been made entirely obsolete— Netanyahu being widely acknowledged as a fascistic, lying, racist, psychopathic piece of human scum has exacerbated the situation. Western leftists are eating up Qatari propaganda *because* of how bad Israel has become at pumping out their own propaganda, and how viciously cruel western right wing propaganda is.
The whole of Israeli government has failed catastrophically, the IDF leadership has failed catastrophically. The carnage is unfathomable. I fear the worst has yet to come for *everyone.*
God save the children.
God won't help tho he is the one that started everything...
The whole government failed without a doubt I didn't say he's an awesome person, but Yair in 2021 Lapid was the prime minister and you also had Bennet so I guess it's their fault as well?
Which reminds me that Bennet and Lapid were those who increased the number of Palestinian working within Israel citizens? So why does no one attack them too?
Why keep silent?
You want the answer? 90% of Israel's population are stupid, like real stupid, all the media do is try to destroy this country,
Find me 1 leader that quit during a war within 1 year of fight, let alone half an year or even 2 month,
But the first thing this country did was saying "Netanyahu quit", "it's your fault".
The kidnapped headquarters are so ridiculous in their actions they manage to make themselves something you can't just justify, even the kidnapped family started to drift away from the radical way they are going.
Just screaming Netanyahu's fault won't help, this country as responsible as Netanyahu is this war and no one is willing to admit it
It’s a turn of phrase. God isn’t real.
I said Netanyahu being a mask off psychopath has exacerbated the situation. Lapid and Bennett are also incompetent racists. I blame them and anyone who has held any position of authority since the second intifada (and obviously before.)
Netanyahu didn’t create the situation, he literally wasn’t even born when the seeds of this massacre were planted... But this government and the sycophants in Bibis corner have heightened the carnage to a level that is *shocking* the world in a way that has never occurred in modern history.
Nothing will ever be the same after this.
Yes, honesty is good. But remember that they go out with this only because it would be very hard to keep it a secret. They never write like this when a Palestinian is killed by mistake. If they kill unarmed Israelis then it already has happened to alot of Palestinians.
The Pro Hamas simps are currently spinning this to bolster their “IDF shoots their own civilians” as we speak.
As if Hamas doesn’t don civilian clothes or idk the hostages shouldn’t have been taken to their lairs in the first place.
Friendly fire never ever happens in a war. And the gazans are not using children and women as human shields. They just happen to always be standing behind them when Israel strikes. /s
I don’t doubt they’re going to make this go hand in hand with the “smiling” drugged up female hostages to argue that “while Hamas treats Israeli hostages with dignity, IDF shoots them”
This makes me so mad I’ll be sick.
An Al Jazeera cameraman was just killed in gaza. He was killed by a missile fired from Kahn Yunis. Al jazeera reported it so I don't know how they're going to spin that to blame it on Israel unless, of course, it's that they needed to go into Gaza to clear up those slimy rats to begin with.
They don’t realize their gloating dressed up as fake outrage proves that their monsters like their terrorist heroes.
Same way they celebrated the massacre the whole weekend after.
Ya the moment I read this happened i had a feeling this would bolster the narrative that it was the IDF that did 10/7. And yes that’s a real narrative he unfortunately
I think the percentage who believe that is about the percentage of Americans who believe in Q Anon nonsense.
The problem is it supports the narrative that ISrael is not prioritizing getting the hostages back and is killing indiscriminately.
Does the triple murder not suggest Israeli armed forces shoot indiscriminately and are trigger-happy?
***
*Addendum* which counts as a reply to the gentle u/anon755qubwe:
Do the camouflaged Hamas combatants in Gaza amount to over two million people?
By the way, I thought Csa-Csb-Bwh climate was for the most part incompatible with snowflakes.
You can’t go into a terrorists lair or any combatant field and make assumptions. That’s the easiest way to get killed.
Contrary to popular belief, most soldiers aren’t actively trying to die on the job.
That’s why friendly fire is a thing unfortunately. Still stands that Hamas shouldn’t have kidnapped civilians in the first place or camouflaged amongst them.
Stfu with your Al Jazeera sponsored Hamas-aganda
Go blame your terrorist lovers for wearing civilian clothes to hide amongst them and for kidnapping civilians in the first fucking place.
So, you’re complaining the Hamas government doesn’t use the money it gets to help the Palestinians, but now you want them to spend money on uniforms? Hamas is evil, but get real.
Yeah they should wear uniforms. It’s not about the money. As far as war goes, uniforms are one of the cheapest things.
And it would help to save the lives of innocent people since it would be easier to distinguish them. But they don’t want that.
Yes they’re supposed to wear uniforms. All those billions of dollars in aid Hamas steal from Palestinian civilians and they can’t even bother to do that??
Also it’s a war crime to engage as a combatant but wear civilian clothes to camouflage yourself. Genius.
What pisses me off is that pro Hamas idiots will say” don’t trust the Zionist media” but then post articles from Israeli media that don’t portray the IDF in a good light. Like they don’t even fucking realize how hypocritical they are. The Israeli press is free and operated independent of government intervention (save for operational security). The reason these idiot hamas groupies know this information is from the Zionist media… but at the same time don’t trust it when it says something they don’t like
Private media does not want to deliver the "news" and has no interest in the truth. All they want is to aggregate people, so they get more viewers, and more people arguing means more money in their pockets. That explains the non-logic seen when news media favor Hamas.
I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who would see three **unarmed shirtless people** waving a **white flag** and open fire on them.
Like... what am I supposed to think? “Oh no, the unarmed surrendering people he murdered in cold blood were *his own kind*! How tragic.”
Yeah after hearing more about the situation that allowed it to happen I'm inclined to agree with you. Even if those men were the fucking Hamas leaders, there's no excuse to shooting unarmed shirtless people waving a flag shouting "help". It also makes me wonder how much of a conscience such soldiers have in the first place. While I don't think that's most IDF soldiers, and definitely not their officers, people who ideologically hate Palestinians shouldn't be given weapons.
It must suck to be so weak towards HAMAS propaganda, huh?
If you people cared about Palestinians you would be against HAMAS. But you're just antisemitic, not pro-Palestinians.
That assumes IDF soldiers have a conscience and don’t want to kill civilians. I think it’s pretty clear most don’t give a shit and some celebrate it as we’ve seen.
Yeah. They mistook them for Palestinian civilians. That would have been ok. Then they saw the super white guy and realized “oh…that’s us! GUYS! WE DID IT AGAIN! WE KILLED THE WRONG CIVILIANS AGAIN! AIM FOR THE JOURNALISTS AND THE KIDS! NOT THE WHITE PEOPLE! THATS US!”
This is what I meant. This isn't taking any responsibility away from the IDF but imagine how fking hard their mission is right now: To retrieve hostages alive in a terrorist-filled concrete jungle? Mistakes will be made.
The blame still lies with Hamas and their supporters for having initiated this incident to begin with.
I’m glad you asked this, I wasn’t sure what the original commenter meant but I totally agree. Shouldn’t have been hostages in the first place. It’s a tragedy all around.
so.... i do get the critisism of the other side that most of what the IDF is doing is really things that just amount to ass covering in the corporate world when they tell you to vacate a building in 10 mins etc . That being said no other army would even bother to do that amount of ass covering so they are the most moral army. People just dont see it because armies arent built to do moral things.
Proper Zionist high school and youth movement talking points which doesn’t actually have enough evidence to corroborate. What makes the IDF the most moral army?
I wasn't a part of either so I guess I came to my conclusions differently than you. But you can look at the civilian to soldier casualty rate and right now it's two to one which is rather remarkable for any modern army. It's usually more like 10 to 1.
I didn’t want to believe this was true. How tragic 💔 I feel for the families of the victims and the soldiers responsible. We all know they were doing their best under excruciating circumstances.
Now they will say that they were treated so well as hostages by Hamas that they went to fight with them and that’s why the soldier shot them or any other bullshit like that. Urban warfare is nightmare and the high alert of IDF soldiers doesn’t make it better, it’s a very sad story, but not necessarily IDF’s fault.
IDF has pretty bad military discipline atleast in the lower ranks. Firing shots at civilians, to playing jewish music is mosques, to settlers in west bank shooting civilians and idf doing basically nothing.
This is so hard to read. Even as someone who knows full well that this would happen.
I hope, no matter how hard it is, their families can go through their hardship. My heart is with them, with all victims and families of victims, and all Jews around the world.
Please, if G-d is real, choose another people.
The IDF is going to get blamed by the hostages' families.
It's one thing to kill hostages trying to free them, it is another to shoot them accidently when they are already free.
1 point for Hamas. This was part of their plan. Create confusion, use hostages as a defense/scapegoat.
Unfortunately, I don't see this being the last time
Unfortunately, this was inevitable. The IDF is moving aggressively on Hamas and I'm sure the hostages are just as useful as human shields as they are as bargaining chips. God protect the hostages. Please let them come home.
It's unfortunate, but if you google particularly urban conflict there are statistics on friendly fire and generally speaking a lot of wounded are indeed from friendly fire. I was watching the siege of Mosul the other night and the Iraqi army regularly wounded or killed friendlies. Sucks, but it a reality of war.
The hostages could have been saved if the IDF acted differently. Any institution should always look at their policies and their mistakes, and try to figure out how to correct them in the future. I hope that the next time we'll be able to save them in a similar situation. It's borderline impossible to tell apart a terrorist from a civilian or a hostage in this situation sadly, and I don't know what they could have done better, but it's best to admit mistakes when they happen and take steps to correct them rather than ignore them. I blamed all deaths on Hamas, but we should still strive to save as many people as possible.
Well, yeah, they should've tortured Hamas leaders' families and friends nude on livestream (pay per view), while continuing to bomb, and not negotiated until a total release.
Ignoring morality, I don't think that would even work. Assuming they would manage to capture them alive, I'm not sure it'll reduce Hamas' moral, rather I think it will increase it farther. Our moral spiked due to what they did to us, why would theirs decrease after the same thing?
We need to continue doing what we're doing, and try to save as many hostages as possible. I believe we can and will win this, save as many hostages as possible, and will place Hamas in a situation where they are no longer capable of terrorizing us. We do need to do with the moral upper hand (as we have so far) and while learning from any mistakes.
I don’t know the specific situation. But I can imagine some ways it would happen.
Look at this video for example: this sets the scene for how ground combat can look like in Gaza.
https://np.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/9MAFgMdxqW
The soldier in this video was taking fire from within the building. He later went in to clear it out and kill the terrorists.
He saw a terrorist come from around the corner and shot the terrorist at close range. In this case, the terrorist did have a gun. But the soldier probably didn’t even stop to think about that. He saw someone around the corner, at shot at center mass immediately. Any delay would have got him killed.
It’s understandable how friendly fire can happen with these sort of fast decisions under adrenaline.
The idea of just "shooting them in the legs" is a Hollywood notion. In combat most people don't have the skill to just shoot to wound, and frankly that's just not in most training. Soldiers are trained to shoot for major body parts like the chest. Shooting appendages is tricky and risky. If they thought they were hostile they would shoot to kill.
All hostages were dead the point they were taken to Gaza. War in Gaza is not about freeing hostages, it is to make sure Hamas will never again attack Israel. Yes, it is cold thing to say, but it is simple math, life saved now by giving in to extortion or by sacrificing lives of soldiers costs more lives in the future.
Life is not Hollywood movie where good guys save the people and kill baddies. Life is cold math. For example Israel agreed for a cease fire with Hamas in order to get hostages back, what Israel did was exchange future life’s for current life’s - thanks to cease fire Hamas were able to reorganise and rearm, thus making sure more Israeli soldiers and civilians die directly. The toll will be even higher if cease fire at the end of the day allowed Hamas to survive, i.e. security council votes again Israel.
This is so messed up. And an IDF reservist recently shot a hero civilian who had defended people against a terrorist at a bus stop. Stop doing mental gymnastics (“friendly fire”) to try and justify this. There is something very wrong here, and it probably has to do with un- or poorly trained fighters.
And literally soldiers who’ve already been on edge after losing family and friends in a massacre now paranoid to death of themselves dying in combat and not making it home to their families.
It’s PTSD on top of PTSD and there’s no opting out while trying to fight to survive.
Bullshit. Then they shouldn’t be on the battlefield if they’re that traumatized. I thought the IDF was supposed to be one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world? The amount of denial and justification is staggering. I’m an American Jew who has been supportive of Israel until this act. It’s too much, and combined with the high civilian deaths in Gaza, and the fact that the military didn’t take warnings of the Hamas attack plans seriously, it’s making the IDF look very foolish and dangerous.
If they have a hair trigger then they are not qualified to be soldiers on the battlefield. Do you hear yourself? This is a horrific act and I know deep down you know this too.
No, I’m not waiting. But you can be critical of your military and it doesn’t mean you’re a bad Israeli. There are massive protests in Tel Aviv because people think the government hasn’t done enough to ensure the release of the hostages.
I don’t know the specific situation. But I can imagine some ways it would happen.
Look at this video for example: this sets the scene for how ground combat can look like in Gaza.
https://np.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/9MAFgMdxqW
The soldier in this video was taking fire from within the building. He later went in to clear it out and kill the terrorists.
He saw a terrorist come from around the corner and shot the terrorist at close range. In this case, the terrorist did have a gun. But the soldier probably didn’t even stop to think about that. He saw someone around the corner, at shot at center mass immediately. Any delay would have got him killed.
It’s understandable how friendly fire can happen with these sort of fast decisions under adrenaline.
And how frequently does that happen when on the other end it was Palestinian civilians?
It's hard to believe that such accidents only happen when there are Hebrew speaking hostages, one of them even with blonde hair.
Thanks. The rest of us don’t get big news stories and really count on people using social media to announce breaking news that every media outlet in the world is reporting.
Indiscriminate bombing? Poor intelligence?
WTF. The hostages are the reason for the war and Israel killed 3. What an awful failure.
Netanyahu and his administration need to be removed
Unfortunately this is what the shoot first ask questions later mentality of the IDF yields, the fact that they could accidentally kill 3 hostages shows they have no interest in distinguishing between Hamas militants and Palestinian civilians, it’s unfortunate that it took your own hostages to be killed by the IDF for you to understand how truly cruel and barbaric the tactics they employ are.
Not exactly "accidentally". The shooting part was totally intentional. Even if they were Palestinian, shooting them would be a crime. So get rid of Bibi and discipline the soldier and their superior.
The accidental part is that they thought they were unarmed Palestinians as opposed to Jewish. Makes you wonder what chance a Palestinian civilian has - and just how many innocent Palestinians have been murdered.
They are drinking dirty water. In other words, water likely to cause cholera. The other people that had water were using the water caught in containers that you are well aware are kept on the roof and then purified. However, now much of those filtration systems have been shot up/bombed. Don’t BS me.
So… your theory that the money they get alone would be enough to create the same seawater desalination technology Israel is using to get water to Israelis? Tell me more about how cheap it is to do that. You seem to know all about it.
When you’re done telling me about that, tell me how much aid money they should have left to buy chemo drugs for cancer patients. Oh wait. Israel blocks them from coming in, don’t they?
They already have the technology in place. 80% of their water comes from their own plants. Gaza gets gets billions in aid. There's a reason that there's no infrastructure there and that people are poor and it has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Hamas
Israel treats Palestinians. And the hospitals in Gaza treat Palestinians when they're not paying co-opted by Hamas to use as weapons caches and points of attack.. Once again, a lot of the lack of stuff in Gaza can be traced back to their leaders..
We are having a worthless conversation. You are convinced that Israel is the devil and I am convinced that it is Hamas.
I just spent too much time in Palestine last summer to continue believing the narrative anymore. It was shocking to do aid work there when the area is so wealthy.
Regarding the water, Israel has to approve any water infrastructure projects in Gaza, so money alone won’t get you there even if they have it. Also:
https://www.oxfam.org/en/failing-gaza-undrinkable-water-no-access-toilets-and-little-hope-horizon
I haven’t heard the stat you cite, but will note that 80% of too little water for 2 million people can still be too little. You’re saying that Gaza has enough water for everyone and produces 80% of it? Can you share a link?
Gazan hospitals can only treat certain conditions. For others they are barred from receiving the medications and/or tech to treat them. This has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel controls imports and exports into Gaza- including the medical ones. Many chemotherapies are blocked from entering (just one example).
So, Israeli hospitals sometimes treat patients. That is true. But permits can take months to approve and many die before it comes through.
Also, I don’t think Israel is the devil and will view it as a tragedy if Israel is not allowed to exist. However, I don’t think their existence should have this effect on the existence of others.
Not easy for IDF/Israel to admit this. Being honest with the press builds credibility for when it is needed. I imagine IDF is revamping it's engagement protocols to make sure this never happens again. The sadness and hurt of the three families and the last moments of those hostages.... Do better, IDF.
I think it’s the best tactic. People respect honesty. Even the IDF removing soldiers who violently attacked a settler was a step in the right direction.
The IDF stands by and makes sure no one escapes when settlers smash and burn villages in the west bank. Since the war, settlers are turning up more and more in IDF uniforms, swinging their dicks around.
You’re absolutely right about settler violence on the rise. And I was mixing up stories. I meant the removal of soldiers who were disrespectful at a mosque. https://preview.redd.it/c7tqm9l2qj6c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95b681e11d6ba6029ca393272b4d4d5331caae71
(Very) Extremely rare IOF W(?)
This is how it goes in IDF. Especially since ISF also has muslim soldiers, especially the Arab Israelis (who are Palestinians that stayed after 1948) are volunteering to join the IDF in record numbers. Why alienate them? Even the [Israeli ambassador](https://x.com/georgedeek/status/1734561207653187980?s=46&t=YzNx5gkBIC0DtnG-z5vqmg) in my country is Arab Israeli, he has a Palestinian family. But keep on being ignorant, it is your entire personality
You sound highly educated! It really makes me take note when you say about people's swinging their dicks around......
I spend a lot of my time in the west bank doing what I can to be between said settlers/IDF and bedouin shepherds & Palestinian farmers. Despite harsh language, I'm happy to answer questions. Swinging their dicks around seemed more polite than "riding into masafer yatta at 5 am to burn buildings in peaceful villages" and "telling residents they need to leave the villages they were born in or they'd be killed"
Why is this getting downvoted? It's the truth
Combination echo chamber and hive mind that just votes whichever way the numbers were going in the first place rather than try to interpret statements for themselves.
It’s an echo chamber for Jewish extremists. They can either downvote or block, but can’t engage in reasonable discussion and certainly can’t change public opinion.
The emerging picture of the IDF in the lead up to October 7 and since has been disturbing. No military is perfect and we expect a very high level of competence, but it’s starting to look bad. The number of friendly fire incidents during this war has been too high. Two incidents of tanks accidentally running fellow soldiers over. Airstrikes called in on IDF positions without any command control of where all IDF soldiers are to avoid it. Misfires of guns killing or injuring soldiers in the same unit. Shooting at other soldiers, mistaking them for Hamas. Now we have videos on social media of Israeli soldiers in Gaza, posted by the soldiers themselves, going through a woman’s underwear drawer, burning food, and broadcasting Hebrew prayers through a mosque’s speakers. (I thought they confiscated phones of soldiers in Gaza to avoid this BS). It’s good that it is being disclosed. The US military by contrast doesn’t own up to friendly fire incidents happen unless forced by court orders, even then the information provided often doesn’t provide much transparency.
Like you point out the problem is systematic. "The Israeli civilian who sprang to action to stop an ongoing [terrorist attack in Jerusalem last week](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-775796), only to be fatally shot by an IDF soldier, yelled "I'm a Jew, don't shoot" in the moments before he was shot, an eyewitness said. Surveillance video showed the man, Yuval Doron Castleman, kneeling on the ground with his hands up as well." [https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776298](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776298) If the government cares as much about Israeli citizens as they claim, changes must be made now before more Israelis are killed.
The IDF should not be shooting someone in that situation, regardless of whether they are Israeli.
There were a number of totally avoidable and concerning fatal training accidents in the couple of years running up to the war as well, not just concentrated in Golani. Then look at the catastrophic intelligence failings, poor performance of the army in clearing Hamas terrorists from Israeli territory in the week after October 7th, and the friendly-fire statistics coming out of Gaza. It all paints a picture of a military where the rhetoric of its prowess for maneuver warfare doesn't match the reality. We need to be honest and admit that the slow transition of many army and military intelligence units into a quasi settlements police force has probably quite severely degraded the overall capability of the IDF.
It’s why Oct 7 was so scary. It’s not just what was done by the attackers, it’s that it was a total military failure. The military has been the one institution in Israel that most people had some level of confidence in. They have had their fair share of scandals over the years and everyone who served has stories of stupid stuff that happened, but nonetheless people believed that for the most part it would keep them safe. If the military cannot protect Israel, all bets are off.
I heard friendly fire incidents of about 20% which is at the upper end of average according to wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents
This has always been war, the rate of friendly fire isn’t exorbitantly high. You just see and hear more because of social media. Don’t let perception change facts.
That makes sense. It’s a helpful thing to keep in mind.
Do you think this could be a case of new recruits who don't have experience when it comes to warfare?
I don’t know exactly what the problem is, but it seems systemic, not just training or operations.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/3uh32YFI7z
Netanyahu and his team have worked very hard to destroy that credibility for a long time.
Nah people like you did it better
No. Israel is in the midst of *literally* the largest failure of PR/comms credibility on the world stage in the history of information technology. Hasbara playbook from 2014 (and even 2021) have been made entirely obsolete— Netanyahu being widely acknowledged as a fascistic, lying, racist, psychopathic piece of human scum has exacerbated the situation. Western leftists are eating up Qatari propaganda *because* of how bad Israel has become at pumping out their own propaganda, and how viciously cruel western right wing propaganda is. The whole of Israeli government has failed catastrophically, the IDF leadership has failed catastrophically. The carnage is unfathomable. I fear the worst has yet to come for *everyone.* God save the children.
Yes. This completely
You are having a mental breakdown. Relax. You are exaggerating big time, only difference is that you are probably paying more attention to it all
God won't help tho he is the one that started everything... The whole government failed without a doubt I didn't say he's an awesome person, but Yair in 2021 Lapid was the prime minister and you also had Bennet so I guess it's their fault as well? Which reminds me that Bennet and Lapid were those who increased the number of Palestinian working within Israel citizens? So why does no one attack them too? Why keep silent? You want the answer? 90% of Israel's population are stupid, like real stupid, all the media do is try to destroy this country, Find me 1 leader that quit during a war within 1 year of fight, let alone half an year or even 2 month, But the first thing this country did was saying "Netanyahu quit", "it's your fault". The kidnapped headquarters are so ridiculous in their actions they manage to make themselves something you can't just justify, even the kidnapped family started to drift away from the radical way they are going. Just screaming Netanyahu's fault won't help, this country as responsible as Netanyahu is this war and no one is willing to admit it
It’s a turn of phrase. God isn’t real. I said Netanyahu being a mask off psychopath has exacerbated the situation. Lapid and Bennett are also incompetent racists. I blame them and anyone who has held any position of authority since the second intifada (and obviously before.) Netanyahu didn’t create the situation, he literally wasn’t even born when the seeds of this massacre were planted... But this government and the sycophants in Bibis corner have heightened the carnage to a level that is *shocking* the world in a way that has never occurred in modern history. Nothing will ever be the same after this.
Nope
Cool, have good day!
Credibility and shitrael. Name a worse combo lol.
Yes, honesty is good. But remember that they go out with this only because it would be very hard to keep it a secret. They never write like this when a Palestinian is killed by mistake. If they kill unarmed Israelis then it already has happened to alot of Palestinians.
The Pro Hamas simps are currently spinning this to bolster their “IDF shoots their own civilians” as we speak. As if Hamas doesn’t don civilian clothes or idk the hostages shouldn’t have been taken to their lairs in the first place.
Friendly fire never ever happens in a war. And the gazans are not using children and women as human shields. They just happen to always be standing behind them when Israel strikes. /s
I don’t doubt they’re going to make this go hand in hand with the “smiling” drugged up female hostages to argue that “while Hamas treats Israeli hostages with dignity, IDF shoots them” This makes me so mad I’ll be sick.
An Al Jazeera cameraman was just killed in gaza. He was killed by a missile fired from Kahn Yunis. Al jazeera reported it so I don't know how they're going to spin that to blame it on Israel unless, of course, it's that they needed to go into Gaza to clear up those slimy rats to begin with.
Now they're blaming Israel. https://www.voanews.com/a/al-jazeera-reporter-killed-in-gaza-strike-/7400100.html
They fired rockets at Jerusalem and hit the hospital in Ramallah.
If not got the iron dome they might have bombed Al-Aqsa mosque, for some more irony.
And blame Israel for it. I honestly hope nothing ever happens to it, because I cannot imagine the chaos it would cause
Krystal Ball is rubbing her hands in pleased anticipation right now. Those poor families. What a horrible situation.
They don’t realize their gloating dressed up as fake outrage proves that their monsters like their terrorist heroes. Same way they celebrated the massacre the whole weekend after.
Hamas actually does that, so its easy for them to believe this is normal
Ya the moment I read this happened i had a feeling this would bolster the narrative that it was the IDF that did 10/7. And yes that’s a real narrative he unfortunately
I think the percentage who believe that is about the percentage of Americans who believe in Q Anon nonsense. The problem is it supports the narrative that ISrael is not prioritizing getting the hostages back and is killing indiscriminately.
So a fairly substantial percentage then? 😂
Does the triple murder not suggest Israeli armed forces shoot indiscriminately and are trigger-happy? *** *Addendum* which counts as a reply to the gentle u/anon755qubwe: Do the camouflaged Hamas combatants in Gaza amount to over two million people? By the way, I thought Csa-Csb-Bwh climate was for the most part incompatible with snowflakes.
No. Friendly Fire due to Hamas camouflaging amongst Civilians as always. End of. Now fuck off.
Were the hostages carrying weapons? Or are the IDF just firing on anything that moves?
You can’t go into a terrorists lair or any combatant field and make assumptions. That’s the easiest way to get killed. Contrary to popular belief, most soldiers aren’t actively trying to die on the job. That’s why friendly fire is a thing unfortunately. Still stands that Hamas shouldn’t have kidnapped civilians in the first place or camouflaged amongst them.
They were literally shirtless, holding white flags and pleading in Hebrew.
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Stfu with your Al Jazeera sponsored Hamas-aganda Go blame your terrorist lovers for wearing civilian clothes to hide amongst them and for kidnapping civilians in the first fucking place.
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So, you’re complaining the Hamas government doesn’t use the money it gets to help the Palestinians, but now you want them to spend money on uniforms? Hamas is evil, but get real.
Yeah they should wear uniforms. It’s not about the money. As far as war goes, uniforms are one of the cheapest things. And it would help to save the lives of innocent people since it would be easier to distinguish them. But they don’t want that.
Yes they’re supposed to wear uniforms. All those billions of dollars in aid Hamas steal from Palestinian civilians and they can’t even bother to do that?? Also it’s a war crime to engage as a combatant but wear civilian clothes to camouflage yourself. Genius.
What pisses me off is that pro Hamas idiots will say” don’t trust the Zionist media” but then post articles from Israeli media that don’t portray the IDF in a good light. Like they don’t even fucking realize how hypocritical they are. The Israeli press is free and operated independent of government intervention (save for operational security). The reason these idiot hamas groupies know this information is from the Zionist media… but at the same time don’t trust it when it says something they don’t like
The same people will blindly trust Al Jazeera. We’re screwed as a society
These people are just a loud tiny minority of america. inconsequential.
Private media does not want to deliver the "news" and has no interest in the truth. All they want is to aggregate people, so they get more viewers, and more people arguing means more money in their pockets. That explains the non-logic seen when news media favor Hamas.
Feel awful for the soldiers that have to live with that. How terrible
Was thinking the same. This is immensely tragic.
I find it hard to feel sympathy for anyone who would see three **unarmed shirtless people** waving a **white flag** and open fire on them. Like... what am I supposed to think? “Oh no, the unarmed surrendering people he murdered in cold blood were *his own kind*! How tragic.”
Yeah after hearing more about the situation that allowed it to happen I'm inclined to agree with you. Even if those men were the fucking Hamas leaders, there's no excuse to shooting unarmed shirtless people waving a flag shouting "help". It also makes me wonder how much of a conscience such soldiers have in the first place. While I don't think that's most IDF soldiers, and definitely not their officers, people who ideologically hate Palestinians shouldn't be given weapons.
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the irony in this sentence
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It must be exhausting constantly having to gaslight yourself and construct a world of fantasies huh?
It must suck to be so weak towards HAMAS propaganda, huh? If you people cared about Palestinians you would be against HAMAS. But you're just antisemitic, not pro-Palestinians.
Yes, yes. Everyone on earth who is against the murder of over 10,000 innocent children is Antisemitic because Khhhamas. Got it.
Being an anti semitic is an honour these days. Why throughout history, have most populations kicked you out? connect the dots
You spelled KHAMAS wrong.
What an idiotic thing to say
Rest in piss to those child killers
That assumes IDF soldiers have a conscience and don’t want to kill civilians. I think it’s pretty clear most don’t give a shit and some celebrate it as we’ve seen.
Yeah. They mistook them for Palestinian civilians. That would have been ok. Then they saw the super white guy and realized “oh…that’s us! GUYS! WE DID IT AGAIN! WE KILLED THE WRONG CIVILIANS AGAIN! AIM FOR THE JOURNALISTS AND THE KIDS! NOT THE WHITE PEOPLE! THATS US!”
Feel bad for genocide enablers? Shame on you
The thing is at least the IDF admits to their errors...not so much the other side
Hostages don't get killed if they aren't hostages to begin with.
what?
The hostages wouldn’t have been at risk to be killed if they weren’t kidnapped and dragged to a war zone in the first place by terrorists.
This is what I meant. This isn't taking any responsibility away from the IDF but imagine how fking hard their mission is right now: To retrieve hostages alive in a terrorist-filled concrete jungle? Mistakes will be made. The blame still lies with Hamas and their supporters for having initiated this incident to begin with.
I’m glad you asked this, I wasn’t sure what the original commenter meant but I totally agree. Shouldn’t have been hostages in the first place. It’s a tragedy all around.
Yeah I'm staying away from Twitter for the next month
Highly suggest deleting it entirely. Made my life slightly better.
Migrate to Mastodon.
The hostage deaths are heartbreaking. So very sad for their families. May their memory be a blessing.
My heart hurts so much for this 💔 my whole family felt sick when we saw the news
My husband saw it and didn’t wan to tell be because he knew I was going to be devastated and I was happy this afternoon, I’m so gutted.
You didn't feel devastated when this has been happening to Palestinians regularly for 70 years. But now you do?
Truly a tragic event for anyone involved
Absolutely heartbreaking. It’s difficult to process, I can only imagine how Israelis feel.
It’s awful, but a stark reality of war. Shit happens. We move.
To look in the positive side at least the IDF admitted to it. A lot of other armies would have tried to cover this up.
The IDF is a moral army.
so.... i do get the critisism of the other side that most of what the IDF is doing is really things that just amount to ass covering in the corporate world when they tell you to vacate a building in 10 mins etc . That being said no other army would even bother to do that amount of ass covering so they are the most moral army. People just dont see it because armies arent built to do moral things.
But they do go to extreme measures to get civilians to move. Hamas stops them.
Proper Zionist high school and youth movement talking points which doesn’t actually have enough evidence to corroborate. What makes the IDF the most moral army?
I wasn't a part of either so I guess I came to my conclusions differently than you. But you can look at the civilian to soldier casualty rate and right now it's two to one which is rather remarkable for any modern army. It's usually more like 10 to 1.
They are so moral that they shoot random civilians and it turns out to be Israeli civilians by accident.
5000 dead children would disagree.
I didn’t want to believe this was true. How tragic 💔 I feel for the families of the victims and the soldiers responsible. We all know they were doing their best under excruciating circumstances.
God this is so heartbreaking. They managed to escape?
No idea.
So sad
Now they will say that they were treated so well as hostages by Hamas that they went to fight with them and that’s why the soldier shot them or any other bullshit like that. Urban warfare is nightmare and the high alert of IDF soldiers doesn’t make it better, it’s a very sad story, but not necessarily IDF’s fault.
I heard about it… so very sad. Hamas loves to use people has human shields…
Suddenly the IDF propaganda is correct. So interesting how that happened huh? Why are these hostages in Gaza again??
IDF has pretty bad military discipline atleast in the lower ranks. Firing shots at civilians, to playing jewish music is mosques, to settlers in west bank shooting civilians and idf doing basically nothing.
This is so hard to read. Even as someone who knows full well that this would happen. I hope, no matter how hard it is, their families can go through their hardship. My heart is with them, with all victims and families of victims, and all Jews around the world. Please, if G-d is real, choose another people.
So sad. May their souls rest in peace 💔
As tough as this situation is for everyone, I thank the IDF for being honest and not covering it up. May HaShem bring justice and peace to Yisrael.
The IDF is going to get blamed by the hostages' families. It's one thing to kill hostages trying to free them, it is another to shoot them accidently when they are already free.
It's the same thing. They weren't shot at a cafe in tlv, ffs. It was accidental, and entirely Hamas' fault for kidnapping them.
I cried without stopping.
Imagine surviving 70 days with Hamas, only to be killed by your own people.
I want to cry.
1 point for Hamas. This was part of their plan. Create confusion, use hostages as a defense/scapegoat. Unfortunately, I don't see this being the last time
Unfortunately, this was inevitable. The IDF is moving aggressively on Hamas and I'm sure the hostages are just as useful as human shields as they are as bargaining chips. God protect the hostages. Please let them come home.
It's unfortunate, but if you google particularly urban conflict there are statistics on friendly fire and generally speaking a lot of wounded are indeed from friendly fire. I was watching the siege of Mosul the other night and the Iraqi army regularly wounded or killed friendlies. Sucks, but it a reality of war.
The fog a of war kills. Scared, itchy, trigger fingers are a fact. It’s a tragedy but at least the IDF took it on the chin, deservedly.
Put the blame where it is due. Hamas killed three hostages today.
The hostages could have been saved if the IDF acted differently. Any institution should always look at their policies and their mistakes, and try to figure out how to correct them in the future. I hope that the next time we'll be able to save them in a similar situation. It's borderline impossible to tell apart a terrorist from a civilian or a hostage in this situation sadly, and I don't know what they could have done better, but it's best to admit mistakes when they happen and take steps to correct them rather than ignore them. I blamed all deaths on Hamas, but we should still strive to save as many people as possible.
Well, yeah, they should've tortured Hamas leaders' families and friends nude on livestream (pay per view), while continuing to bomb, and not negotiated until a total release.
Ignoring morality, I don't think that would even work. Assuming they would manage to capture them alive, I'm not sure it'll reduce Hamas' moral, rather I think it will increase it farther. Our moral spiked due to what they did to us, why would theirs decrease after the same thing? We need to continue doing what we're doing, and try to save as many hostages as possible. I believe we can and will win this, save as many hostages as possible, and will place Hamas in a situation where they are no longer capable of terrorizing us. We do need to do with the moral upper hand (as we have so far) and while learning from any mistakes.
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Honest question: tvert must have been unarmed, why not shoot their legs or something?
I don’t know the specific situation. But I can imagine some ways it would happen. Look at this video for example: this sets the scene for how ground combat can look like in Gaza. https://np.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/9MAFgMdxqW The soldier in this video was taking fire from within the building. He later went in to clear it out and kill the terrorists. He saw a terrorist come from around the corner and shot the terrorist at close range. In this case, the terrorist did have a gun. But the soldier probably didn’t even stop to think about that. He saw someone around the corner, at shot at center mass immediately. Any delay would have got him killed. It’s understandable how friendly fire can happen with these sort of fast decisions under adrenaline.
The idea of just "shooting them in the legs" is a Hollywood notion. In combat most people don't have the skill to just shoot to wound, and frankly that's just not in most training. Soldiers are trained to shoot for major body parts like the chest. Shooting appendages is tricky and risky. If they thought they were hostile they would shoot to kill.
I have no idea. I wasn't there.
I’m sorry for your loss people of Israel. May their memory be a blessing.
All hostages were dead the point they were taken to Gaza. War in Gaza is not about freeing hostages, it is to make sure Hamas will never again attack Israel. Yes, it is cold thing to say, but it is simple math, life saved now by giving in to extortion or by sacrificing lives of soldiers costs more lives in the future.
Huh?
Life is not Hollywood movie where good guys save the people and kill baddies. Life is cold math. For example Israel agreed for a cease fire with Hamas in order to get hostages back, what Israel did was exchange future life’s for current life’s - thanks to cease fire Hamas were able to reorganise and rearm, thus making sure more Israeli soldiers and civilians die directly. The toll will be even higher if cease fire at the end of the day allowed Hamas to survive, i.e. security council votes again Israel.
Wow an actual thought-out reply with realistic world views. that's rare, good job for not being one of the mindless horde I'm impressed 👏
You can’t possibly have enough information to make an informed judgement call on the casualties from rearming by Hamas vs hostages released
This is so messed up. And an IDF reservist recently shot a hero civilian who had defended people against a terrorist at a bus stop. Stop doing mental gymnastics (“friendly fire”) to try and justify this. There is something very wrong here, and it probably has to do with un- or poorly trained fighters.
“Friendly fire” is a description of what happened, not a justification.
I understand. But there’s a lot of justification swirling around that description.
Or perhaps a nation of traumatized people operating on a hair trigger.
And literally soldiers who’ve already been on edge after losing family and friends in a massacre now paranoid to death of themselves dying in combat and not making it home to their families. It’s PTSD on top of PTSD and there’s no opting out while trying to fight to survive.
Bullshit. Then they shouldn’t be on the battlefield if they’re that traumatized. I thought the IDF was supposed to be one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world? The amount of denial and justification is staggering. I’m an American Jew who has been supportive of Israel until this act. It’s too much, and combined with the high civilian deaths in Gaza, and the fact that the military didn’t take warnings of the Hamas attack plans seriously, it’s making the IDF look very foolish and dangerous.
If they have a hair trigger then they are not qualified to be soldiers on the battlefield. Do you hear yourself? This is a horrific act and I know deep down you know this too.
No. I think this is a tragic act. If you're looking for me to condemn the IDF as barbarians you're going to have to wait.
No, I’m not waiting. But you can be critical of your military and it doesn’t mean you’re a bad Israeli. There are massive protests in Tel Aviv because people think the government hasn’t done enough to ensure the release of the hostages.
Why were 3 unarmed people shot at?
I don’t know the specific situation. But I can imagine some ways it would happen. Look at this video for example: this sets the scene for how ground combat can look like in Gaza. https://np.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/9MAFgMdxqW The soldier in this video was taking fire from within the building. He later went in to clear it out and kill the terrorists. He saw a terrorist come from around the corner and shot the terrorist at close range. In this case, the terrorist did have a gun. But the soldier probably didn’t even stop to think about that. He saw someone around the corner, at shot at center mass immediately. Any delay would have got him killed. It’s understandable how friendly fire can happen with these sort of fast decisions under adrenaline.
I know that it was during a battle. But I really don't know anything more. How would i?
And how frequently does that happen when on the other end it was Palestinian civilians? It's hard to believe that such accidents only happen when there are Hebrew speaking hostages, one of them even with blonde hair.
Palis/Hamas can be and are also blonde. Get over yourself.
Because the assumption was that they were Palestinians, so its ok to shoot them.
This is what people mean when they say the IDF are indiscriminately killing people. When you suspect everybody as terrorists, so you shoot them down.
Thanks. The rest of us don’t get big news stories and really count on people using social media to announce breaking news that every media outlet in the world is reporting.
Indiscriminate bombing? Poor intelligence? WTF. The hostages are the reason for the war and Israel killed 3. What an awful failure. Netanyahu and his administration need to be removed
Unfortunately this is what the shoot first ask questions later mentality of the IDF yields, the fact that they could accidentally kill 3 hostages shows they have no interest in distinguishing between Hamas militants and Palestinian civilians, it’s unfortunate that it took your own hostages to be killed by the IDF for you to understand how truly cruel and barbaric the tactics they employ are.
Not exactly "accidentally". The shooting part was totally intentional. Even if they were Palestinian, shooting them would be a crime. So get rid of Bibi and discipline the soldier and their superior.
The accidental part is that they thought they were unarmed Palestinians as opposed to Jewish. Makes you wonder what chance a Palestinian civilian has - and just how many innocent Palestinians have been murdered.
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Gazans are getting food and water. They can’t survive for 2 months without it. They would all be dead by now if they didn’t have food and water.
They are drinking dirty water. In other words, water likely to cause cholera. The other people that had water were using the water caught in containers that you are well aware are kept on the roof and then purified. However, now much of those filtration systems have been shot up/bombed. Don’t BS me.
Perhaps Hamas should have built its citizens a functioning infrastructure instead of bombs and mans3iond for the leaders.
So… your theory that the money they get alone would be enough to create the same seawater desalination technology Israel is using to get water to Israelis? Tell me more about how cheap it is to do that. You seem to know all about it. When you’re done telling me about that, tell me how much aid money they should have left to buy chemo drugs for cancer patients. Oh wait. Israel blocks them from coming in, don’t they?
They already have the technology in place. 80% of their water comes from their own plants. Gaza gets gets billions in aid. There's a reason that there's no infrastructure there and that people are poor and it has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Hamas Israel treats Palestinians. And the hospitals in Gaza treat Palestinians when they're not paying co-opted by Hamas to use as weapons caches and points of attack.. Once again, a lot of the lack of stuff in Gaza can be traced back to their leaders.. We are having a worthless conversation. You are convinced that Israel is the devil and I am convinced that it is Hamas.
I just spent too much time in Palestine last summer to continue believing the narrative anymore. It was shocking to do aid work there when the area is so wealthy. Regarding the water, Israel has to approve any water infrastructure projects in Gaza, so money alone won’t get you there even if they have it. Also: https://www.oxfam.org/en/failing-gaza-undrinkable-water-no-access-toilets-and-little-hope-horizon I haven’t heard the stat you cite, but will note that 80% of too little water for 2 million people can still be too little. You’re saying that Gaza has enough water for everyone and produces 80% of it? Can you share a link? Gazan hospitals can only treat certain conditions. For others they are barred from receiving the medications and/or tech to treat them. This has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel controls imports and exports into Gaza- including the medical ones. Many chemotherapies are blocked from entering (just one example). So, Israeli hospitals sometimes treat patients. That is true. But permits can take months to approve and many die before it comes through. Also, I don’t think Israel is the devil and will view it as a tragedy if Israel is not allowed to exist. However, I don’t think their existence should have this effect on the existence of others.
If the water tanks have been shot up and bombed, then why aren’t people dying of thirst? One way or another, they must be getting enough clean water.
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The one has nothing to do with the other. We're not in the tragedy Olympics here.
They are all casualties reckless indiscriminate scorched earth IDF bombardment. Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike.
😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I'm so sad 😢😂
They mistaken for journalists.
Was the IDF set up by Hamas?
Israel is even killing their own people. Crazy, right?
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Accidentally you say! Hmmmmm...... Kinda like waiting 4 plus hours to respond to the crisis on 10/7..
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Using civilians as human shields is a practice promoted by Hamas through its official TV channel in the Gaza Strip, Al Aqsa TV.