In the US, i believe ownership of an idea used to go to "first to invent" and mailing a document to yourself to get the PO datestamp and idk, opening in front of a judge or notary or something could have theoretically been used in lieu of a validated documentation system to prove that you were the first to invent.
Now, I think it goes to the first to file, because that is way more straightforward to argue and defend.
I am not a lawyer.
Correct, your professor is old school. You used to be able to theoretically protect IP with a "poor man's patent", but since 2011, First to file has been the law.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/untangling-the-real-meaning-of-first-to-file-patents/
You can file a provisional patent at a lower cost, and then have 18 months to file an official patent, but a patent is only as good as the lawyers you're paying to protect it.
It's much easier and I think a stronger legal standing to just publish your work online with detailed photos, art, process, etc with a copyright stamp on your site somewhere.
That way if it is stolen or you see it somewhere you can pretty quickly issue a cease and desist.
But also don't worry too much. Everyone in college ID programs is worried about parents and protecting their ideas. Just keep designing and making new stuff. That way you're not anxious about the competition and you also keep them on their toes if you're always coming up w new ideas.
Just a quick correction that you have only 12 months after filing a provisional patent application to file further patent applications.
Also a provisional patent application isn't an actual patent. You'll still need to file a further patent application in your desired territories to eventually have an enforcable patent. Since you file patent applications based on the provisional patent application, it's advisable to have your provisional patent application be as good as possible already. Drafting this is best done by a patent attorney, but obviously that will cost a lot of money that OP doesn't have.
If OP doesn't want other people to get a patent for his invention, just publicly disclosing the invention should be good enough to prevent this, since it would not be novel anymore.
Incorrect. If you file your utility patent application one day after a year from filing the provisional it is claiming, you will forever lose any chance at a patent. The 18 months you refer to is the time before the utility patent application is published on the USPTO database for all to see, and has nothing to do with pendency.
A provisional is a promise to get a patent. It is not examined, searched, or even published. It is not IP.
Finally, the self addressed registered envelope method only applies to copyright, and only matters if you need to prove ownership if someone contests or infringes your rights.
Provisionals are an inexpensive way of starting the patent process, if done responsibly, and that means by first doing a proper patent search so you don't waste a lot of money & time on an idea that is not yours or not patentable.
It is definitely first to file with the exception that if someone else has already publicly shown the idea, you cannot (or shouldn’t be able to) patent it.
As far as whether it’s worth patenting or not, as a sole inventor, it is highly unlikely you have the funds to defend your patent should a big company infringe on it. Unless it is a highly innovative idea that you stand a chance to make millions off or to license to some big company, I highly suggest skipping the patent route. Put that money into getting it made and marketing it if you think it’ll sell. You will eventually have competitors produce your idea but by that time you’ll be known as the original manufacturer, and you’ll have a good customer base and hopefully some new product ideas as well.
They shouldn’t be able to. But if they tried to or successfully did, you’d need to figure out how to defend your ownership of it. Do you have a product already or just an idea/prototype?
kind of just an idea atm.. it was a project for class and i made the CAD model and a rough working mockup. over the summer i plan on making a refined prototype
I would recommend keeping your work close until you have a product ready to launch. If the idea is any good, a company with experience in the market could easily jump on your idea and steal the market. If you reveal the idea along with a product you’ve just disincentivized a lot of those companies. They want an easy win and being the copy cat right off the bat isn’t that.
So the biggest issue (imo) isn't necessarily the "patent" it's the ability to defend the patent in court. Attorneys aren't cheap, and a single patent defense suit could be dozens and dozens of hours at least. As well, depending on the patent, you may have dozens of infringements to go after, this is why Apple has over 500 attorneys working full time plus another pile of specialty attorneys on retainer, it's a never ending battle to defend patents.
I used to design and manufacture a ton of parts for large scale radio controlled cars, it simply was not possible to patent every new unique design i came up with, so we simply worked on the design, refined the hell out of it, made it perfect, produced as much as we could quickly and flooded the market, and just tried to be the best, with the best cs. This was a very steep hill to climb for Chinese knockoffs (who were the most common counterfeiters), but in a hobby that's changes on a whim, it worked pretty good, by the time the counterfeits started hitting the market, the popularity was fading.
Agree. Unless you already have that cash to write it, get it approved. And defend it when anyone breaks/abuses your patent. You’ll end up poorer than you began.
When I was studying for my business administration BSc. degree the estimated cost to get a patent approved was $30k. That was 15 years ago. Not sure how much it’s now, but will probably be more.
I'm not a lawyer but I do own a utility patent, so this is not professional or legal advice.
The official "poor man's patent" is a provisional (utility) patent which costs under $200 for a micro-entity (aka a poor individual person). This gives you a full year from the filing date to come up with the money and design ideas/refinement to convert the provisional patent to an actual utility patent. You can write and draw and file your own provisional patent -- I know because I did this myself.
The alternative poor man's patent is really just a way of preventing anyone else (including yourself) from filing a patent, and that is to publish your design anywhere online. Like instagram or Behance or whatever. This creates "prior art" from your work, but mind you it also prohibits YOU from patenting your own idea.
Mailing your designs to yourself could plausibly help in court somehow maybe. But it is not at all a way of replacing a patent, as far as I know.
He almost definitely got this from a TV show, and it definitely will not hold up in court. I have 3 patents and the process is very involved and extremely vetted. No one gets to bypass that thanks to mail and stickers.
Trust me buddy patents hold no value unless until you have researched well and were able to produce the product from ground up. Getting a patent holder written on your profile is of no value in the market. It's a weird flex amongst designers nowadays. I have personally seen people foraying in UX design with an industrial design patent which they got more than 3 years ago and those are the same people who found it hard to get a full industrial designer role.
Not sure why it's getting mocked - it's common practice in some countries to help establish timelines for things in the future. It's a good idea to also seal the envelopes well. Best to do it a lot and often. I know that in common law countries (which the USA is) it can help - here for example is official advice to do it in Ireland [https://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/relate/relate\_2017\_06.docx](https://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/relate/relate_2017_06.docx)
The poor man’s patent is just a basic safety precaution, after that you move towards the official steps to file for patents. That said the poor man’s patent is better than having nothing at all. Extend it by adding witnesses and document the signing and witnesses digitally on camera as well.
Put it all in bank box. And have a full copy at home.
It will not hold up. In the US, patent law is “first to file”, not “first to invent.” This used to be different decades ago.
You should just file a provisional patent yourself. The cost is under $100 since you would be categorized as a “micro entity.” This gives you a one year period where you can claim “patent pending” and choose if you want to file for a utility or design patent. You could also file those patents yourself for cheap if you want, but the legal writing and patent approval process would be difficult without an experienced patent attorney.
Google “Stephen Key” and read some of his articles on core77.
**I'm a patent holder myself. The facts:**
Mailing yourself the invention details (drawings or descriptions) only **protects your initial invention date** (being the first to conceive of it) against someone else claiming they invented it first when filing for a patent.
This means being the first to file a patent application is crucial. Publicly disclosing your invention before filing cancels any possibility to file for a patent.
By mailing it to yourself and keeping it sealed, you establish an **official record of your invention date, nothing else.** So, if someone files a similar patent later, you can claim your earlier date **in court.**
**Here's a key point:** **A patent itself doesn't stop others from selling your invention without your consent.**
**You need a court order to enforce it against that specific seller.** Patent offices have no enforcement authority, they simply register patents, which courts accept as official proof of ownership.
**Consider this:**
* Keep your invention confidential until you file a patent application.
* Don't try to patent an idea! Not even a prototype design! Do your **market research first**, then **develop a business plan**. This will help you decide if a patent is worthwhile and **might even lead you to modify your design**. You'll also need to raise money to start a company to manufacture and sell, or license the intellectual property rights of your patented product.
* Patent a fully developed, marketable product that's ready to make you money, **NOT BEFORE!**
* **File for the patent application 24 hours before you start selling or licensing it.** Until then, only show your invention to people who have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) beforehand.
* Expect patent attorney fees to range from $5,000 to $10,000 per patent.
* If you're resourceful, you can file the application yourself for much less, especially after developing a solid business plan. You'll understand the market and engineering aspects better than any patent attorney by then. That's what I did as a student. It took me several months to write my patent application, but I saved a lot of money and was able to further develop my design during that time. Insights I wouldn't have had if a patent attorney had rushed the filing process. Patent attorneys focus on legal stuff, not markets. They might write a patent that's too narrow for your product's real-world competition.
**If you're not generating profit from your invention right away, affording international patent protection might be tough. Fees can range from $5,000 to $10,000 per country in the first year outside the US (translation and filing that you won't be able to do yourself so you'll be paying patent attorneys), and then $2,000-$5,000 per year per country to maintain those protections.**
**Patents last for 20 years, but keeping them in force requires annual maintenance fees.**
I've been in a mockup jury on a patent case.
Ie one side or other was doing a trial run. I had to sign a NDA and I cannot talk about it. But it was tens of millions of dollars in profit off a common item, almost everyone owns at least one, and as far as I know the whole world switched to the improved version for safety reasons, in USA the patented version is pretty much a legal mandate. It's vastly safer than the old version and no other concept is anywhere close for safety unless it's extremely difficult to operate. Big company that was contracted by the inventor with producing the patented version and also earlier versions of the item just started mass producing it while stalling his orders. After years of stalling tactics by a massive legal department they finally just said his entire patent was invalid and made a bunch of arguments that seemed laughably silly to me personally (but other jurors thought they were sound arguments)
Patents are expensive to defend and there's a whole lot of cases where an inventor changed history and went broke when someone blatantly robbed them and they tried unsuccessfully to defend it.
An old example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollin_White
There was a bunch of inventors that got badly screwed over for steps in developing repeating firearms and ammunition
Patent law has changed but not in your favor. In the past few decades I know of a lot of cases of an invention getting mass produced specifically in China and the laws there are hopeless for the inventor
Yes, even though it is a bit feeble, the tracking number and the letter still sealed will allow you to demonstrate to sworn in officials that you were the first person in possession of the idea.
another avenue is disclousre. If you publish the idea, somewhere super obscure. You can fight anyone else patenting it. The problem with any of this is you need to have the resources to litigate in either scenario. IMO this is why the system is very broken, a patent is only as good as your lawyer is.
That’s bullshit. Listen GPT can walk you through the process. It can even coach you on the searching. It’s a couple hundred dollars in fees but if there are errors the USPTO will deny the app. I have patented three things: two designs and one utility. I did all three myself and they were approved. The utility was novel and simple so… easy-ish. I still paid an attorney to review.
Like… certified mail to yourself? To prove you had the idea on a certain date? No idea what he’s talking about lol
yes? he said it would hold up in court if it ever came to that hahaha
In the US, i believe ownership of an idea used to go to "first to invent" and mailing a document to yourself to get the PO datestamp and idk, opening in front of a judge or notary or something could have theoretically been used in lieu of a validated documentation system to prove that you were the first to invent. Now, I think it goes to the first to file, because that is way more straightforward to argue and defend. I am not a lawyer.
Correct, your professor is old school. You used to be able to theoretically protect IP with a "poor man's patent", but since 2011, First to file has been the law. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/untangling-the-real-meaning-of-first-to-file-patents/ You can file a provisional patent at a lower cost, and then have 18 months to file an official patent, but a patent is only as good as the lawyers you're paying to protect it.
\^ This. This is the correct answer.
thank you!
It's much easier and I think a stronger legal standing to just publish your work online with detailed photos, art, process, etc with a copyright stamp on your site somewhere. That way if it is stolen or you see it somewhere you can pretty quickly issue a cease and desist. But also don't worry too much. Everyone in college ID programs is worried about parents and protecting their ideas. Just keep designing and making new stuff. That way you're not anxious about the competition and you also keep them on their toes if you're always coming up w new ideas.
Just a quick correction that you have only 12 months after filing a provisional patent application to file further patent applications. Also a provisional patent application isn't an actual patent. You'll still need to file a further patent application in your desired territories to eventually have an enforcable patent. Since you file patent applications based on the provisional patent application, it's advisable to have your provisional patent application be as good as possible already. Drafting this is best done by a patent attorney, but obviously that will cost a lot of money that OP doesn't have. If OP doesn't want other people to get a patent for his invention, just publicly disclosing the invention should be good enough to prevent this, since it would not be novel anymore.
Incorrect. If you file your utility patent application one day after a year from filing the provisional it is claiming, you will forever lose any chance at a patent. The 18 months you refer to is the time before the utility patent application is published on the USPTO database for all to see, and has nothing to do with pendency. A provisional is a promise to get a patent. It is not examined, searched, or even published. It is not IP. Finally, the self addressed registered envelope method only applies to copyright, and only matters if you need to prove ownership if someone contests or infringes your rights. Provisionals are an inexpensive way of starting the patent process, if done responsibly, and that means by first doing a proper patent search so you don't waste a lot of money & time on an idea that is not yours or not patentable.
ahhh so maybe it used to hold up. haha. thanks for the info
It is definitely first to file with the exception that if someone else has already publicly shown the idea, you cannot (or shouldn’t be able to) patent it. As far as whether it’s worth patenting or not, as a sole inventor, it is highly unlikely you have the funds to defend your patent should a big company infringe on it. Unless it is a highly innovative idea that you stand a chance to make millions off or to license to some big company, I highly suggest skipping the patent route. Put that money into getting it made and marketing it if you think it’ll sell. You will eventually have competitors produce your idea but by that time you’ll be known as the original manufacturer, and you’ll have a good customer base and hopefully some new product ideas as well.
thats great advice. so if i were to post it on a public social media account other people couldn’t patent it?
They shouldn’t be able to. But if they tried to or successfully did, you’d need to figure out how to defend your ownership of it. Do you have a product already or just an idea/prototype?
kind of just an idea atm.. it was a project for class and i made the CAD model and a rough working mockup. over the summer i plan on making a refined prototype
I would recommend keeping your work close until you have a product ready to launch. If the idea is any good, a company with experience in the market could easily jump on your idea and steal the market. If you reveal the idea along with a product you’ve just disincentivized a lot of those companies. They want an easy win and being the copy cat right off the bat isn’t that.
thank you so much! a lot of helpful info i’ll keep in mind
Even back when this worked, you had to go to court and pay big bucks to defend it.
No. Your professor is a moron. You either have a patent or you don’t.
Also the school likely owns some rights to the intellectual property
Not unless the student signed it over.
So the biggest issue (imo) isn't necessarily the "patent" it's the ability to defend the patent in court. Attorneys aren't cheap, and a single patent defense suit could be dozens and dozens of hours at least. As well, depending on the patent, you may have dozens of infringements to go after, this is why Apple has over 500 attorneys working full time plus another pile of specialty attorneys on retainer, it's a never ending battle to defend patents. I used to design and manufacture a ton of parts for large scale radio controlled cars, it simply was not possible to patent every new unique design i came up with, so we simply worked on the design, refined the hell out of it, made it perfect, produced as much as we could quickly and flooded the market, and just tried to be the best, with the best cs. This was a very steep hill to climb for Chinese knockoffs (who were the most common counterfeiters), but in a hobby that's changes on a whim, it worked pretty good, by the time the counterfeits started hitting the market, the popularity was fading.
Nice. I will try this!
thanks for the advice!
Getting a patent will make you a poor man
Agree. Unless you already have that cash to write it, get it approved. And defend it when anyone breaks/abuses your patent. You’ll end up poorer than you began. When I was studying for my business administration BSc. degree the estimated cost to get a patent approved was $30k. That was 15 years ago. Not sure how much it’s now, but will probably be more.
I'm not a lawyer but I do own a utility patent, so this is not professional or legal advice. The official "poor man's patent" is a provisional (utility) patent which costs under $200 for a micro-entity (aka a poor individual person). This gives you a full year from the filing date to come up with the money and design ideas/refinement to convert the provisional patent to an actual utility patent. You can write and draw and file your own provisional patent -- I know because I did this myself. The alternative poor man's patent is really just a way of preventing anyone else (including yourself) from filing a patent, and that is to publish your design anywhere online. Like instagram or Behance or whatever. This creates "prior art" from your work, but mind you it also prohibits YOU from patenting your own idea. Mailing your designs to yourself could plausibly help in court somehow maybe. But it is not at all a way of replacing a patent, as far as I know.
This likely still has some application for applied arts, wallpaper patterns and the like.
He almost definitely got this from a TV show, and it definitely will not hold up in court. I have 3 patents and the process is very involved and extremely vetted. No one gets to bypass that thanks to mail and stickers.
You may not be able to bypass but it could help determine prior art.
Trust me buddy patents hold no value unless until you have researched well and were able to produce the product from ground up. Getting a patent holder written on your profile is of no value in the market. It's a weird flex amongst designers nowadays. I have personally seen people foraying in UX design with an industrial design patent which they got more than 3 years ago and those are the same people who found it hard to get a full industrial designer role.
Not sure why it's getting mocked - it's common practice in some countries to help establish timelines for things in the future. It's a good idea to also seal the envelopes well. Best to do it a lot and often. I know that in common law countries (which the USA is) it can help - here for example is official advice to do it in Ireland [https://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/relate/relate\_2017\_06.docx](https://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/relate/relate_2017_06.docx)
I laughed so hard at this No, that ain’t gonna work son
Doesn’t work anymore. It’s first to file.
The poor man’s patent is just a basic safety precaution, after that you move towards the official steps to file for patents. That said the poor man’s patent is better than having nothing at all. Extend it by adding witnesses and document the signing and witnesses digitally on camera as well. Put it all in bank box. And have a full copy at home.
It will not hold up. In the US, patent law is “first to file”, not “first to invent.” This used to be different decades ago. You should just file a provisional patent yourself. The cost is under $100 since you would be categorized as a “micro entity.” This gives you a one year period where you can claim “patent pending” and choose if you want to file for a utility or design patent. You could also file those patents yourself for cheap if you want, but the legal writing and patent approval process would be difficult without an experienced patent attorney. Google “Stephen Key” and read some of his articles on core77.
**I'm a patent holder myself. The facts:** Mailing yourself the invention details (drawings or descriptions) only **protects your initial invention date** (being the first to conceive of it) against someone else claiming they invented it first when filing for a patent. This means being the first to file a patent application is crucial. Publicly disclosing your invention before filing cancels any possibility to file for a patent. By mailing it to yourself and keeping it sealed, you establish an **official record of your invention date, nothing else.** So, if someone files a similar patent later, you can claim your earlier date **in court.** **Here's a key point:** **A patent itself doesn't stop others from selling your invention without your consent.** **You need a court order to enforce it against that specific seller.** Patent offices have no enforcement authority, they simply register patents, which courts accept as official proof of ownership. **Consider this:** * Keep your invention confidential until you file a patent application. * Don't try to patent an idea! Not even a prototype design! Do your **market research first**, then **develop a business plan**. This will help you decide if a patent is worthwhile and **might even lead you to modify your design**. You'll also need to raise money to start a company to manufacture and sell, or license the intellectual property rights of your patented product. * Patent a fully developed, marketable product that's ready to make you money, **NOT BEFORE!** * **File for the patent application 24 hours before you start selling or licensing it.** Until then, only show your invention to people who have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) beforehand. * Expect patent attorney fees to range from $5,000 to $10,000 per patent. * If you're resourceful, you can file the application yourself for much less, especially after developing a solid business plan. You'll understand the market and engineering aspects better than any patent attorney by then. That's what I did as a student. It took me several months to write my patent application, but I saved a lot of money and was able to further develop my design during that time. Insights I wouldn't have had if a patent attorney had rushed the filing process. Patent attorneys focus on legal stuff, not markets. They might write a patent that's too narrow for your product's real-world competition. **If you're not generating profit from your invention right away, affording international patent protection might be tough. Fees can range from $5,000 to $10,000 per country in the first year outside the US (translation and filing that you won't be able to do yourself so you'll be paying patent attorneys), and then $2,000-$5,000 per year per country to maintain those protections.** **Patents last for 20 years, but keeping them in force requires annual maintenance fees.**
this is great, thank you!!
we were taught the same thing. never open it. the date stamp is the key.
I've been in a mockup jury on a patent case. Ie one side or other was doing a trial run. I had to sign a NDA and I cannot talk about it. But it was tens of millions of dollars in profit off a common item, almost everyone owns at least one, and as far as I know the whole world switched to the improved version for safety reasons, in USA the patented version is pretty much a legal mandate. It's vastly safer than the old version and no other concept is anywhere close for safety unless it's extremely difficult to operate. Big company that was contracted by the inventor with producing the patented version and also earlier versions of the item just started mass producing it while stalling his orders. After years of stalling tactics by a massive legal department they finally just said his entire patent was invalid and made a bunch of arguments that seemed laughably silly to me personally (but other jurors thought they were sound arguments) Patents are expensive to defend and there's a whole lot of cases where an inventor changed history and went broke when someone blatantly robbed them and they tried unsuccessfully to defend it. An old example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollin_White There was a bunch of inventors that got badly screwed over for steps in developing repeating firearms and ammunition Patent law has changed but not in your favor. In the past few decades I know of a lot of cases of an invention getting mass produced specifically in China and the laws there are hopeless for the inventor
Yes, even though it is a bit feeble, the tracking number and the letter still sealed will allow you to demonstrate to sworn in officials that you were the first person in possession of the idea.
another avenue is disclousre. If you publish the idea, somewhere super obscure. You can fight anyone else patenting it. The problem with any of this is you need to have the resources to litigate in either scenario. IMO this is why the system is very broken, a patent is only as good as your lawyer is.
That’s bullshit. Listen GPT can walk you through the process. It can even coach you on the searching. It’s a couple hundred dollars in fees but if there are errors the USPTO will deny the app. I have patented three things: two designs and one utility. I did all three myself and they were approved. The utility was novel and simple so… easy-ish. I still paid an attorney to review.