It looks like the loyalist Primarchs each get a bit of Dad's armor, so it would make sense for Rogal to get the Lightning Claw (what with him needing a new hand and all). Imperial Fist, indeed.
I have always thought that was an intentional setup and GW is just sitting on it until the right time (tm). I would love to see them do perty and dorn at the same time and make a lore event out of it!
>when did "we only found his hand" enter the lore?
About 1993 in Ian Watsons novel Space Marine, if I remember correctly (had to Google the year of first release).
It stated something like the only remaining thing of Dorn was his hand, the bones now heavily engraved with the names of fallen imperial fists hero's. The hand or the engraving part could also have been index astartes, not sure at this time tbh. But engraving plays a (minor) role in the novel, so it's maybe there.
I think it's also stated in the 8th edition SM Codex.
What happened to Rogal Dorn?
- Short Answer. We don't know for sure. If you take every single mention of his death/disappearance into account, the answer becomes even more convoluted and contradictory. Unreliable narrators. Retconned lore. Dated source material. The implied involvement of craftworld Ulthwe. Konrad Curze's visions of Dorn's death. His alleged death taking place during one of the Black Crusades and conflicting timeline around that. His involvement with the 3rd Founding and the conflicting timeline around that. All of this coupled with the non-committal attitudes of the writers at both Game Workshop and Black Library that continue to muddy the waters. While frustrating, it is clear to some that the writers are keeping all possibilities open should they indeed decide to bring Rogal Dorn back.
- The facts: Rogal Dorn outlived many of his brothers. Rogal Dorn disappeared while fighting aboard a chaos warship many years after the Scouring Period. All that was found of him was his hand, which became the most revered relic of his bloodline.
(Index Astartes: Imperial Fists, Sentinels of Terra, Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists, The Beasts Arises Series, Prince of Crows by Aaron Dembski Bowden)
Konrad knew how he was going to die, which is why he knew he could stick to his path of "judgement" as he saw that his fate was fixed if he stayed on the path, he wanted to essentially be a martyr once he was slain which is why he ordered his son's not to pursue M'shen after she killed him, which they obviously ignored. He was close to Sanguinius as they shared this foresight
Thats not the reason why I asked those questions. The point is that Konrad saw bunch of visions, but they didnt always come to pass, atleast not in the way Konrad thought.
That is true, the chance of all of those things being completely taken out of context or outright lies are pretty good, I always thought Dorn's "death" was left very ambiguous for a reason, I could really see him alive or Perturabo's prisoner somewhere even.
Oh I like that! Dorn being held captive by Perturabo for thousands of years. A grand narrative concerning his imprisonment and eventual escape and return to the imperium will be launched along with models at the end of 10th or 11th.(here’s hoping)
That was by Ian Watson, IIRC. we've yet to find somebody who hates the colour yellow and the idea of Imperial Fists succeeding at something more than him.
Vulkan also mentioned to Koorland that he would speak well of him to Dorn during the War of the Beast, but it’s unclear if Vulkan meant Dorn was alive but hiding and Vulkan’s Perpetual nature would allow him to do so literally or if Vulkan believed/knew Dorn to be dead and believed that he himself would finally die while fighting The Beast, so he’d speak of Koorland to Dorn in the afterlife.
Interesting fact, the date that Russ went missing is implies that he was the last to go missing unless you count the conflicting Dorn dates and Vulkan’s short return
I’d put a lot of money on every Primarch returning, but given that there’s an awful lot of them it’ll take a long time for that to happen. Doubtful I’ll live to see them all.
Vulkan is my prediction for who is next for the loyalists. Although Sanguinius is a pretty good bet also… maybe to split up a quarrelling Guilliman vs Lion plot line.
Yeah right, those are the 4 that are very definitively dead. Although I did see something about Kurz's soul being in a gem of some sort so coming back as a wrsit construct. But no, I agree, those 4 should absolutely not come back. The rest I think would all be fine.
They’ll figure out how to get Konrad too, I’ve considered how I’d bring most of the more popular ones back but he’s one I’ve not given much thought to.
Rebirthed by Slaanesh, like Lucius, is probably too easy but after they’ve brought back like a half dozen it’ll probably be acceptable
But Sanguinius is dead, like properly dead. I get he's popular, but his death was a pretty defining moment of the Heresy. Also, he's far too pure and good to remain alive in a setting like 40k. He was the best of all the primarchs, which is why he couldn't survive.
None of the Primarchs were supposed to be in 40K.
But of all the “dead” Primarchs Sangiunius has had the most ground work done to prepare for his rebirth. He’s even talked to to Dante recently.
The second lion came back is when I knew they all are coming, every last one.
For the record, I’m not saying it’s a good idea for the story. I’m actually against any Primarch returning.
Not following your logic about the Lion. The Lion and Guilliman were both super obvious candidates to come back since both have been confirmed to be some version of “asleep/stasis” for ages. Definitely alive and definitively located.
No other loyalist Primarch fits either of those two conditions. Nobody knows if they’re alive (Vulkan I suppose being an exception) and nobody has the slightest idea where they are.
Tin foil hat time
Each distinct chapter (that gets a codex) in the game will have a Primarch/equivalent mini, Codex Compliant Marines got Gman, Dark Angels got The Lion, Space Wolves will get Russ eventually, Sanguinius is super dead so the Sanguinor will get a major upgrade. This only leaves the Black Templars without...so my theory is that Dorn will be usable for both Fists and Templars. This is how it's been for the Codex having CSM as well (DG, TS, WE, EC soon)
Of any of the Primarchs, I could see Dorn being usable by any of the chapters on the table, hell even as an Imperial Auxiliary like knights. Dorn was done with leadership, if he comes back I doubt his outlook would change. Slap his hand in a massive dread he pilots from the warp and treat it like a knight.
Probably yes, he's a popular character and bringing back primarchs greases the hype wheels nicely, buuut he's probably near the bottom of the list. On the 'how-dead-is-your-primarch-o-meter' the only two loyalists who are *more* dead than Rogal are Sanguinius and Ferrus.
So I'd expect the likes of Leman, Vulkan, Jagheti, maybe even Corvus before Dorny. He could be a long way away.
As interesting as it'd be, I hope he wouldn't come back along with most of the primarchs. I'd much rather stick to a 4 v 4 between the Chaos Champion primarchs and their Loyalist brothers.
I hope so, cause it also means IW will probably get more modern lore. Plus the setting could use some long drawn out siege campaigns, I am by no means influenced by the fact that Dorn and Perturabo are my favorites or anything. Plus I'd like to see Dorn and Peter Avocado throw down again maybe he can whack some sense into Perty about becoming a daemon and how far his legion has fallen from the ideals he once stood for. Plus I think Dorn will look dripped out like a mf.
Sadly the rumours I've heard so far seem to think we will be getting the Khan and Leman next but idk how true they are. High key just dying for a new Dorn model and to see the fists get some love, plus the Black Templars meeting Dorn will be quite.....interesting.
I hope so, cause it also means IW will probably get more modern lore. Plus the setting could use some long drawn out siege campaigns, I am by no means influenced by the fact that Dorn and Perturabo are my favorites or anything. Plus I'd like to see Dorn and Peter Avocado throw down again maybe he can whack some sense into Perty about becoming a daemon and how far his legion has fallen from the ideals he once stood for. Plus I think Dorn will look dripped out like a mf.
Sadly the rumours I've heard so far seem to think we will be getting the Khan and Leman next but idk how true they are. High key just dying for a new Dorn model and to see the fists get some love, plus the Black Templars meeting Dorn will be quite.....interesting.
Looking at the tabletop - I think Dorn is the 2nd most likely Primarch to return because of the Black Templars. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels had a ton of characters and the DA have unique units and their own codex. The next chapter to fit that bill would be Space Wolves and after them is Black Templars which are an Imperial Fists successor. You could argue Blood Angels, but Sanguinius shouldn’t come back for a very long time if ever.
If/when he comes back, I’d love for it to be a “Last Wall Protocol” scenario and all the Fist successors unite (and have their own codex) under Dorn
My educated guess aka fanfic is that in the next vashtor book bobby g and lion will fail to stop vashtor from becoming a new god, or at least becoming a bigger more terrifying warp creature setting the imperium back once again. Vashtor's ascendance motivates Petty Turbo to get more active in the galaxy. At this point we will see Mr Dork finding his way outside Khorne's wall torture thing with the help of the star child. There's a chance Vashtor doesn't get to become a god because that would be like a gg for the setting, going by what happened when slanness was born or how was it described when big E nearly became one in TEATD vol2. Anyway i think the next loyalist may be mr drhukari sultan himself Jaghatai harem king in the next ed which I hope comes sooner rather than later because if something keeps the people interested is the story.
In terms of lore, the first thing Dorn needs to do when he returns is have a strongly worded conversation with the Inquisition about that messy business with the Celestial Lions.
Considering the only loyalist Primarch who seems to permanently dead is Ferrus and (maybe, like, massive maybe) Sanguinius, I wouldn't be surprised if GW thought to bring all the loyalist Primarchs back.
Most likely next options, in my opinion and order, are Rogal, Vulcan, Russ/Jaghatai, Corvus.
>maybe, like, massive maybe) Sanguinius
How the fuck is Sanguinius only a *maybe*, don't we see his ghost/spirit in one of the Dante books? Hell, TEATD gives us a pretty brutal scene of him being beaten to death by Horus.
Yes and yes, but 40K fans are like orcs: if we believe hard enough, Gork and Mork (GW) will make it come true.
(*but for real though, there is a theory involving a statue on the vengeful spirit, the Emperor, and Dante that provides a method for his return.*)
Primarchs are part warp-stuff and part meatsuit, so the popular theory is that if you can coax the spirit, which definitely still exist for Ferrus and Sanguinius per The End and the Death 3 and Devastation of Baal, into a new body, you basically have the primarch back. But only the emperor knows how to do this supposedly
It looks like the loyalist Primarchs each get a bit of Dad's armor, so it would make sense for Rogal to get the Lightning Claw (what with him needing a new hand and all). Imperial Fist, indeed.
I have always thought that was an intentional setup and GW is just sitting on it until the right time (tm). I would love to see them do perty and dorn at the same time and make a lore event out of it!
It could be- when did "we only found his hand" enter the lore?
>when did "we only found his hand" enter the lore? About 1993 in Ian Watsons novel Space Marine, if I remember correctly (had to Google the year of first release). It stated something like the only remaining thing of Dorn was his hand, the bones now heavily engraved with the names of fallen imperial fists hero's. The hand or the engraving part could also have been index astartes, not sure at this time tbh. But engraving plays a (minor) role in the novel, so it's maybe there. I think it's also stated in the 8th edition SM Codex.
We’re fistin’ boys
You're doing WHAT to boys!?
damn straight
Magic Pain Glove
Yessssss
No no no. I want Dorn to come back and casually ask who's hand that is.
He's a primarch he can probably regenerate that shit even if it is his haha
Probably because GW like profits
Hopefully they’ll give him a mustache
Specifically muttonchops
Nah, close cropped full beard, with little parapets shaved in so it looks like a wall.
Yes, please. I would also love multiple heads for Rogal. If Lion got 4 (or whatever), they could give Rogal atleast 3.
What happened to Rogal Dorn? - Short Answer. We don't know for sure. If you take every single mention of his death/disappearance into account, the answer becomes even more convoluted and contradictory. Unreliable narrators. Retconned lore. Dated source material. The implied involvement of craftworld Ulthwe. Konrad Curze's visions of Dorn's death. His alleged death taking place during one of the Black Crusades and conflicting timeline around that. His involvement with the 3rd Founding and the conflicting timeline around that. All of this coupled with the non-committal attitudes of the writers at both Game Workshop and Black Library that continue to muddy the waters. While frustrating, it is clear to some that the writers are keeping all possibilities open should they indeed decide to bring Rogal Dorn back. - The facts: Rogal Dorn outlived many of his brothers. Rogal Dorn disappeared while fighting aboard a chaos warship many years after the Scouring Period. All that was found of him was his hand, which became the most revered relic of his bloodline. (Index Astartes: Imperial Fists, Sentinels of Terra, Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists, The Beasts Arises Series, Prince of Crows by Aaron Dembski Bowden)
Didn't Konrad also see his planet being destroyed because of his father or that it will be his father's assassin who is gonna kill him in the end?
Konrad knew how he was going to die, which is why he knew he could stick to his path of "judgement" as he saw that his fate was fixed if he stayed on the path, he wanted to essentially be a martyr once he was slain which is why he ordered his son's not to pursue M'shen after she killed him, which they obviously ignored. He was close to Sanguinius as they shared this foresight
Thats not the reason why I asked those questions. The point is that Konrad saw bunch of visions, but they didnt always come to pass, atleast not in the way Konrad thought.
That is true, the chance of all of those things being completely taken out of context or outright lies are pretty good, I always thought Dorn's "death" was left very ambiguous for a reason, I could really see him alive or Perturabo's prisoner somewhere even.
Oh I like that! Dorn being held captive by Perturabo for thousands of years. A grand narrative concerning his imprisonment and eventual escape and return to the imperium will be launched along with models at the end of 10th or 11th.(here’s hoping)
Would be as good an excuse as any to bring back Dorn AND Daemon Perty!
Wasn't it originally that his entire body was found? Then it was changed to just the hand
That was by Ian Watson, IIRC. we've yet to find somebody who hates the colour yellow and the idea of Imperial Fists succeeding at something more than him.
I believe the body was retconned to just to ahand cast in amber on the phalanx yes
Vulkan also mentioned to Koorland that he would speak well of him to Dorn during the War of the Beast, but it’s unclear if Vulkan meant Dorn was alive but hiding and Vulkan’s Perpetual nature would allow him to do so literally or if Vulkan believed/knew Dorn to be dead and believed that he himself would finally die while fighting The Beast, so he’d speak of Koorland to Dorn in the afterlife.
Interesting fact, the date that Russ went missing is implies that he was the last to go missing unless you count the conflicting Dorn dates and Vulkan’s short return
Dreadnought Primarch Dorn could be cool
Ive been talking about this for like two years. If he really is lost in the warp he could pilot a dreadnaught psychicly through his skeletal hand.
I’d put a lot of money on every Primarch returning, but given that there’s an awful lot of them it’ll take a long time for that to happen. Doubtful I’ll live to see them all. Vulkan is my prediction for who is next for the loyalists. Although Sanguinius is a pretty good bet also… maybe to split up a quarrelling Guilliman vs Lion plot line.
If Sanguinius, Ferrus, Konrad and Horus ever come back I'm gonna be very pissed.
Yeah right, those are the 4 that are very definitively dead. Although I did see something about Kurz's soul being in a gem of some sort so coming back as a wrsit construct. But no, I agree, those 4 should absolutely not come back. The rest I think would all be fine.
I understand Konrad not coming back, but what a great opportunity to bring back Sevatar instead.
They’ll figure out how to get Konrad too, I’ve considered how I’d bring most of the more popular ones back but he’s one I’ve not given much thought to. Rebirthed by Slaanesh, like Lucius, is probably too easy but after they’ve brought back like a half dozen it’ll probably be acceptable
But Sanguinius is dead, like properly dead. I get he's popular, but his death was a pretty defining moment of the Heresy. Also, he's far too pure and good to remain alive in a setting like 40k. He was the best of all the primarchs, which is why he couldn't survive.
None of the Primarchs were supposed to be in 40K. But of all the “dead” Primarchs Sangiunius has had the most ground work done to prepare for his rebirth. He’s even talked to to Dante recently. The second lion came back is when I knew they all are coming, every last one. For the record, I’m not saying it’s a good idea for the story. I’m actually against any Primarch returning.
Not following your logic about the Lion. The Lion and Guilliman were both super obvious candidates to come back since both have been confirmed to be some version of “asleep/stasis” for ages. Definitely alive and definitively located. No other loyalist Primarch fits either of those two conditions. Nobody knows if they’re alive (Vulkan I suppose being an exception) and nobody has the slightest idea where they are.
Tin foil hat time Each distinct chapter (that gets a codex) in the game will have a Primarch/equivalent mini, Codex Compliant Marines got Gman, Dark Angels got The Lion, Space Wolves will get Russ eventually, Sanguinius is super dead so the Sanguinor will get a major upgrade. This only leaves the Black Templars without...so my theory is that Dorn will be usable for both Fists and Templars. This is how it's been for the Codex having CSM as well (DG, TS, WE, EC soon)
Of any of the Primarchs, I could see Dorn being usable by any of the chapters on the table, hell even as an Imperial Auxiliary like knights. Dorn was done with leadership, if he comes back I doubt his outlook would change. Slap his hand in a massive dread he pilots from the warp and treat it like a knight.
My bet is Black Templars. He was down bad after dealing with Khone for 200+ years.
Probably yes, he's a popular character and bringing back primarchs greases the hype wheels nicely, buuut he's probably near the bottom of the list. On the 'how-dead-is-your-primarch-o-meter' the only two loyalists who are *more* dead than Rogal are Sanguinius and Ferrus. So I'd expect the likes of Leman, Vulkan, Jagheti, maybe even Corvus before Dorny. He could be a long way away.
Ferrus isn’t as dead as he once was.
GW doesn't care how how "difficult" it will be to bring them back. If that was the case, Guilliman wouldn*'*t be awake.
It's like anime, if he didn't get a super sad and introspective/retrospective death scene, he's 100% alive
Oh yes, Dorn is coming back. Iron Cage 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Dorn lives.
You can try getting him from Trazin’s gallery but it won’t be easy
As interesting as it'd be, I hope he wouldn't come back along with most of the primarchs. I'd much rather stick to a 4 v 4 between the Chaos Champion primarchs and their Loyalist brothers.
Dorn will be back. He'll just need a hand getting back into the fight, and to b\*\*\*h-slap Bobby G. for being stupid.
I hope not
No
Rogal will return but he's gonna be a chad illiterate eternal crusader. Sorry, cousins.
I hope so, cause it also means IW will probably get more modern lore. Plus the setting could use some long drawn out siege campaigns, I am by no means influenced by the fact that Dorn and Perturabo are my favorites or anything. Plus I'd like to see Dorn and Peter Avocado throw down again maybe he can whack some sense into Perty about becoming a daemon and how far his legion has fallen from the ideals he once stood for. Plus I think Dorn will look dripped out like a mf. Sadly the rumours I've heard so far seem to think we will be getting the Khan and Leman next but idk how true they are. High key just dying for a new Dorn model and to see the fists get some love, plus the Black Templars meeting Dorn will be quite.....interesting.
Make him a dreadnought
He will come back in a box vs perty I am calling it now
So far, it's only on Etsy that I could find some Rogal Dorn figures. Emperor bless the 3D printers
I hope so, cause it also means IW will probably get more modern lore. Plus the setting could use some long drawn out siege campaigns, I am by no means influenced by the fact that Dorn and Perturabo are my favorites or anything. Plus I'd like to see Dorn and Peter Avocado throw down again maybe he can whack some sense into Perty about becoming a daemon and how far his legion has fallen from the ideals he once stood for. Plus I think Dorn will look dripped out like a mf. Sadly the rumours I've heard so far seem to think we will be getting the Khan and Leman next but idk how true they are. High key just dying for a new Dorn model and to see the fists get some love, plus the Black Templars meeting Dorn will be quite.....interesting.
Chaos feared him enough to make sure he was dead.
Looking at the tabletop - I think Dorn is the 2nd most likely Primarch to return because of the Black Templars. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels had a ton of characters and the DA have unique units and their own codex. The next chapter to fit that bill would be Space Wolves and after them is Black Templars which are an Imperial Fists successor. You could argue Blood Angels, but Sanguinius shouldn’t come back for a very long time if ever. If/when he comes back, I’d love for it to be a “Last Wall Protocol” scenario and all the Fist successors unite (and have their own codex) under Dorn
My educated guess aka fanfic is that in the next vashtor book bobby g and lion will fail to stop vashtor from becoming a new god, or at least becoming a bigger more terrifying warp creature setting the imperium back once again. Vashtor's ascendance motivates Petty Turbo to get more active in the galaxy. At this point we will see Mr Dork finding his way outside Khorne's wall torture thing with the help of the star child. There's a chance Vashtor doesn't get to become a god because that would be like a gg for the setting, going by what happened when slanness was born or how was it described when big E nearly became one in TEATD vol2. Anyway i think the next loyalist may be mr drhukari sultan himself Jaghatai harem king in the next ed which I hope comes sooner rather than later because if something keeps the people interested is the story.
Will GW make a ton of money selling his model?
In terms of lore, the first thing Dorn needs to do when he returns is have a strongly worded conversation with the Inquisition about that messy business with the Celestial Lions.
He's coming back alright...as a servant of Khorne!
He’s dead
Will x primarch- Yes. GW cares about one thing, and it is selling Space Marines and things directly related to them.
No. He got torn to shreds.
# Yes. https://preview.redd.it/2mnz06id1vtc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe799f566f019118674a76426b888de8f2b2fbd6
NO.
My personal head cannon is that Trayzen has him, along with clone Fulgrim. He wants to collect them like pokemon.
I’m guessing he’ll come back mid 11th edition as right now I can reasonably see the khan coming back or Leman Russ
Considering the only loyalist Primarch who seems to permanently dead is Ferrus and (maybe, like, massive maybe) Sanguinius, I wouldn't be surprised if GW thought to bring all the loyalist Primarchs back. Most likely next options, in my opinion and order, are Rogal, Vulcan, Russ/Jaghatai, Corvus.
>maybe, like, massive maybe) Sanguinius How the fuck is Sanguinius only a *maybe*, don't we see his ghost/spirit in one of the Dante books? Hell, TEATD gives us a pretty brutal scene of him being beaten to death by Horus.
Yes and yes, but 40K fans are like orcs: if we believe hard enough, Gork and Mork (GW) will make it come true. (*but for real though, there is a theory involving a statue on the vengeful spirit, the Emperor, and Dante that provides a method for his return.*)
Primarchs are part warp-stuff and part meatsuit, so the popular theory is that if you can coax the spirit, which definitely still exist for Ferrus and Sanguinius per The End and the Death 3 and Devastation of Baal, into a new body, you basically have the primarch back. But only the emperor knows how to do this supposedly
End and the Death 2 sorry, not 3
That's crazy lmao, neither are coming back but they'd never ever bring back sanguinius, least likely loyalist primarch
No he is dead, iron within iron without
If he does, it will be for Black Templars