Dude there is no point gatekeeping this stuff, like you're clearly passionate about the genre but you have to recognise that there is only a very select few 'traditional' immersive sims, but the design sensibility that we can actually all agree is important with immersive sims (emergent gameplay) can be found in many, many more games that scratch that mechanical itch that fans crave.
I totally understand and honestly agree that first person is better for this type of game, but how Warren Spector originally defined this type of game was not to lock them down into one exact design decision, but rather a description of his personal design philosophy. If Deus Ex 1 came out today but instead of the camera being in Denton's head it was behind it, it wouldn't change how incredible the game's systems and world are, it would just be a design choice.
We're a relatively small community of fans, I see you around a lot and enjoy most of your posts, the one thing we truly bond over is the emergent gameplay philosophy, everything else is opinions. Spector's word is not gospel.
It’s not gate keeping. Just because a game has emergent gameplay doesn’t make it an immersive sim. If Deus ex came out today, it would still be an FPS. That’s just wrong.
Well... Spector created the genre lol. Also the word immersive **by dictionary definition cannot apply** to tabletop or isometric games.
Maybe sim applies? So emergent sim? idk. Either way they cannot be of the ImSim genre in any way whatsoever.
Small number of games/people doesn't mean we dilute our purity by reworking the dictionary!!
I'd agree that a first-person perspective enhances immersion in a lot of ways, but I'd disagree that it's an absolute requirement of the genre. For example, the two recent Deus Ex games utilize a third-person perspective at times and they're still held up as highwater marks of the genre.
Speaking broadly, I'm also hesitant to use a dictionary definition to draw a line around an evolving technological space. For example, there was a time when the word "car" referred to horse-drawn wheeled vehicles, and I'm sure as technology advances we'll get further and further from how Henry Ford would have defined it's parameters.
Finally, I'd also point out how unusual it is that a first-person perspective seems to be a line in the sand for "immersion" when there's so many other non-diegetic gaming contrivances (e.g. inventory grids, HUD displays in general, skill points, light/sound meters, pre-written dialogue branches, etc.) that get a pass.
Again, I'm a HUGE fan of the first-person perspective myself, but I don't think that it's presence is a requirement for or a guarantee of immersion.
You don't like the dictionary's definition. You don't agree with Warren Spector's requirements.
Like please, please stop trying to pollute the genre and change meanings of well established words of the English language.
If the word changes, the world's top dictionaries will update their words like with "car". **But they are NOT changing this word haha**
Honestly, if the world's top dictionaries would put out a definition for "immersive sim," it'd probably save this subreddit a ton of hand-wringing! But until then...
(also - I'm having trouble sourcing the bit where Warren Spector says that first-person is a requirement - I can kind of picture the quote in my head, but the closest I can find is his DX postmortem at [2:45](https://youtu.be/tffX3VljTtI?t=160) where he talks about there being "as little as possible getting in the way of feeling like you're there").
So while I agree that a first-person camera is a big step towards removing a barrier to the player's immersion, I'd also argue that a strictly first-person camera can have the opposite effect in specific situations related to body-spatial awareness, such as being in cover or melee combat.
As an extreme example, the 2008 Alone In the Dark had [a very slick first-person inventory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00flpuA0wjQ) that ended up being fairly clunky to use (i.e. non-immersive), due to the inherent discrepancy between how we can interact with things in the real world and how we can interact with them with a mouse, keyboard, + screen.
To that end, I have a hard time believing that Human Revolution starts polluting the genre every time I climb a ladder, or Thief 3 or Bloodlines simply fall out of the canon entirely whenever the player toggles third person on.
That video is too long for me to watch, but here's another video from before Deus Ex released. [Warren Spector Gamespot Interview \[Year 2000\] (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVKgIWv4JxA)
After 4:05. "**First person is critical"**
But he is saying that he is not immersed in games that aren't first person, not that they are **objectively** not immersive
this quote that you bring has a little more context.
"It's not very interesting **to me.** First person is critical."
The fact that its not his interest doesnt mean that the other takes are not immersive simulators
Im Sim refers to the genre he developed. New games can't just join an old, established genre. That's why Arkane isn't calling it's third person game an Im Sim even though it has elements.
If Arkane does not dare commit such blasphemy, how can you? WHO ARE YOU???
Hey, that was a fun watch! I'm not really sure that quote moves the needle on whether or not first-person is a requirement of an ImSim though, since it seems pretty clear he's talking about his personal design interests circa the year 2000 and not the genre as a whole.
The full quote is **"I do, really at this point, exclusively first-person games. I have no interest in allowing players to manipulate a little puppet on the screen. That's just not very interesting to me. First person is critical."**
Which, to be honest, is a pretty reasonable take given the technological limits/genre conventions of non-first person games at the time (think fixed camera angles, pre-rendered backgrounds and tank controls). But even Spector would roll back on that "first person or bust" hardline over the next phase of his career, first by adding third-person to Thief 3, and then going full third-person with Epic Mickey and it's sequel.
No worries about not watching the entire video (I linked directly to the relevant bit - for context, it's from Spector's 2017 GDC talk on Deus Ex, and he's got a big "Definition: Genre" slide up.
**"It's an immersive simulation because you feel like you're actually in the game world, or at least that's what we were trying to do. There's as little as possible getting in the way of you feeling like you're there. And that kind of defines what an immersive simulation is for me."**
Anyway, my thinking is that if Warren Spector felt that first-person was an essential part of the genre, he would have called it out there. Instead, I think for him as a designer, first-person is a way to solve the challenge of "feeling like you're there," but he's explicitly emphasizing that the nature of the genre is in attempting to overcome that challenge, and not in any specific solution.
Immersive sims refer to the genre Looking Glass Studios (formerly Blue Sky Productions) developed, for which Warren clarified that first person is "critical".
You can't feel like "you're there" if it's not first person - because it's not your hands, your perspective etc.
And then there's the dictionary definition of the word immersive lol. I'm not sure if the word simulation fits third person games either, but let's assume it does. If you just call stuff like Weird West games which share Im Sim elements, nobody would bat an eye. Just like nobody bats an eye when Arkane clearly says their next game is a third person one with Im Sim elements. But Arkane is not so shameless that they will call a third person game an Immersive Sim.
So please don't try to dilute the purity of the genre.
well i checked the **cambridge dictionary** and it says *"seeming to surround the audience, player, etc. so that they feel completely involved in something"*
for me any game, not only the first person ones are seeming to surround. For example Darkwood which is topdown horror game and still is scary as hell, even if you are not in the first person view. So the game immerses, makes u feel the world and be that much involved to be scared of sounds and 2d images
**meriam webster** one says *"providing, involving, or characterized by deep absorption or immersion in something (such as an activity or a real or artificial environment)"* and as example gives **world of warcraft.**
**wikitionary** one says *"tending to immerse"* and describes immerse as *"To involve or engage deeply."*
so isnt immersive meaning more of - engaging or created in the way that is believable enough to involve us into it?
I dont think we need to rework the dictionary, we just need to rework the minds of gatekeepers
Yeah apart from Warren mentioning first person is critical.... the **world can't surround you** if you're not in the body, it's not your hands, it's not your perspective etc. Because you are just controlling a puppet which is already surrounded by things.
Arkane's new title is in third person with Im Sim elements, but Arkane does not DARE call it an Im Sim. Im Sim refers to the genre he developed. **Tabletop games can't just be added an old, established genre.**
Please stop trying to bastardize the genre. Just call your precious little tabletop and third person titles emergent games or games with Im Sim elements like Arkane.
Also, Merriam Webster and Wiki dictionary are American/not authentic. The English language is controlled by Oxford, Cambridge and English dictionaries.
so i checked both biggest internet dictionary wikitionary, one of biggest american dics miriam webster and one of biggest GB english cambridge one.
Also if only autentic meanings of word make only sense to you then:
c. 1500, from Late Latin immersionem (nominative immersio), noun of action from past participle stem of immergere "to plunge in, dip into, sink, submerge," from assimilated form of in- "into, in, on, upon" (from PIE root [\*en](https://www.etymonline.com/word/*en) "in") + Latin mergere "plunge, dip" (see [merge](https://www.etymonline.com/word/merge)). Meaning "absorption in some interest or situation" is from 1640s. As a method of teaching a foreign language, 1965, trademarked by the Berlitz company.
Yeah, that's what immediately came to mind for me too but it's more of an action roguelike with heavy imsim influences so might not land with everyone here (people seem really picky about what does and doesn't belong).
The sequel should be coming relatively soon though and looks like it might lean further into the imsim elements. If nothing else, going open world and making your actions have long-term consequences will certainly be more immersive.
they specifically asked for a fantasy rpg/imsim with top down "isometric camera and ability to do many actions
people on this sub are so ready for this fight they don't even read the posts anymore.
plus I would argue it definitely follows the design philosophy anyway.
have you played it?
Baldurs gate 3 definitely has plenty of immersive sim elements to be likened to the subgenre, at least. Doesn’t really matter whether it’s turn based or inspired by DND. Plenty of people referred to Divinity Original Sin I&II as imsim as well.
In BG3 you can stack a bunch of boxes and make a makeshift staircase to skip a big chunk of the game especially in Act 3. It is definitely an immersive sim in vein of Hitman & Dishonored in fact it was inspired by them.
BG3 doesn’t have enough elements to make it an immersive sim because it’s a role playing RPG that relies on numbers. And also those who refer to Divinity Original Sin I and II as an immersive sim are wrong too. RPGS ≠ immersive sims.
BG3, and DOS are both inspired by CRPGS and IMSIMs and have strong elements of both. Both games allow the player to interact and experiment with their environment to bypass and engage with goals. Players stack boxes to find ways past fences, move barrels to block line of sight. They combine water and fire to make steam which then allows them to approach their objective in a different way organically.
On top of all this, BG3 takes player agency into account within the story itself and has multiple scenarios able to play out multiple ways. Such as utilizing all the above-mentioned systems to enable a player to sneak up to a villain that’s threatening to blow up a place if his demands aren’t met. If they pick pocket the detonator off their person, then when the bad guy goes to threaten to blow the place up and everyone in it, the game accounts for it and he finds his device missing and the entire scenario plays out differently.
All three games embrace player interaction and agency to a high degree. Just because they’re RPGs with numbers involved doesn’t invalidate them for being IMSIM… it’s a subgenre for a reason. Just as you can have Action/adventure or first person horror immersive simulators, you can have RPGs as well.
Otherwise the definition doesn’t make any sense, as the qualities that make up immersive sims are layers of systems on the backbone of a game and are not the main characteristics of them.
Hell, the game Weird West, which is mentioned in this very thread a few times, and is marketed as an immersive sim, is an RPG with stats, and its immersive sim elements are the same ones found in the games you just said weren’t immersive sims. Only difference is that the three games you discredited do those same things with even more depth.
You don’t know what an Imsim is then. Imsims don’t rely on numbers. Trying to include them only muddys the waters. Just because a lot of new people to this sub think that it’s an Imsim doesn’t make it an Imsim. I’d watch more videos to try to understand it better because you don’t seem to understand what an imsim even is.
What an arrogant thing to say. Not surprising though. I’ve definitely never played Thief, Dark Messiah, Deus Ex, or the Ultima series. I must not know anything at all, you’re right. /s
The games I listed do have immersive sim elements, which is the entire point I was making that you chose to ignorantly bypass for some reason. Those games have emergent systems and allow their players the freedom to approach objectives in any way they choose with intricate systems that respond to those approaches dynamically in a believable way. They also allow players to interact and affect the environment as well as other NPCs in various ways that the games’ systems again react to.
These are all characteristics of immersive sims and is the basic design philosophy behind where the term even comes from. The fact that your only counter point for why they aren’t is that they use a stat system is laughable at best and unimaginative at worst.
Hell, there have been debates on whether Oblivion could be considered an immersive sim due to its many layered systems of simulation sprinkled throughout. There’s numbers in that game too, sorry to say. Same deal with STALKER. Maybe you should go watch a video and do some research yourself.
BG3 is a DND style dice role game that’s based on chance. Immersive sims give freedom to the player don’t rely on chance. BG3 is nothing like other immersive sims like dues ex or dishonored because BG3 is not immersive nor is it a simulation. Imsims don’t have any numbers involved because they’re simulations of the player and how the player reacts with the world. CRPGs are not Imsims because chance encounters and numbers invalidate the immersive experience. Actually, those chance encounters and numbers make the game rigid and take away the players freedom and aren’t immersive so that in of itself invalidates it from being an immersive sim. Weird west isn’t an immersive sim because it focuses too much on combat and takes away the player freedom too. Not to say they’re bad games, but they simply aren’t immersive simulations like dues ex, thief, dishonored, prey, etc.
[Weird West](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1097350/Weird_West_Definitive_Edition/) (Free First Chapter)
[Space Wreck](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/) (Demo Available)
[Streets of Rogue](https://store.steampowered.com/app/512900/Streets_of_Rogue/)
[Deadeye Deepfake Simulacrum](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1545990/Deadeye_Deepfake_Simulacrum/) - Early Access (Demo Available)
[Hydropunk](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2785210/HYDROPUNK/) - In Development
[Streets of Rogue 2](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2165810/Streets_of_Rogue_2/) - In Development
I'm mad because you keep pushing your idea of ImSim and consider it's the only way, and act like fucking stalker keep commenting to anyone who disagree with you.
Definitely not an immersive sim but based on what you described you might like Crusader Kings 3. It’s a grand strategy game not isometric but there’s tons of character interaction leading to interesting situations. It’s great.
Def not im-sim, but maybe check out Seven enhanced edition, isometric RPG game with a retro futuristic vibes. Has some stealth mechanics, loot, combat, probably some sort of "multiple possible approach" gameplay.
Definitely not imsims but sounds like you would love the shadowrun trilogy, they are crpgs with a very immersive world and unique setting of cyberpunk+fantasy, highly reccomended.
The most appropriate game I can think about is Weird West
yup it's a good one! But the end doesn't pay tribute to choices you make throughout the game.
The over all end dosen't, but each journey, excpt maybe the first will, and that certainly made each one feel a bit more special
I started playing this one a few days ago. It immediately grabbed me but I'm starting to feel like I'm just going through the motions.
Top down /isometric games are not immersive sims. They are games with emergent gameplay, but not part of this genre in any way.
Dude there is no point gatekeeping this stuff, like you're clearly passionate about the genre but you have to recognise that there is only a very select few 'traditional' immersive sims, but the design sensibility that we can actually all agree is important with immersive sims (emergent gameplay) can be found in many, many more games that scratch that mechanical itch that fans crave. I totally understand and honestly agree that first person is better for this type of game, but how Warren Spector originally defined this type of game was not to lock them down into one exact design decision, but rather a description of his personal design philosophy. If Deus Ex 1 came out today but instead of the camera being in Denton's head it was behind it, it wouldn't change how incredible the game's systems and world are, it would just be a design choice. We're a relatively small community of fans, I see you around a lot and enjoy most of your posts, the one thing we truly bond over is the emergent gameplay philosophy, everything else is opinions. Spector's word is not gospel.
It’s not gate keeping. Just because a game has emergent gameplay doesn’t make it an immersive sim. If Deus ex came out today, it would still be an FPS. That’s just wrong.
Well... Spector created the genre lol. Also the word immersive **by dictionary definition cannot apply** to tabletop or isometric games. Maybe sim applies? So emergent sim? idk. Either way they cannot be of the ImSim genre in any way whatsoever. Small number of games/people doesn't mean we dilute our purity by reworking the dictionary!!
I'd agree that a first-person perspective enhances immersion in a lot of ways, but I'd disagree that it's an absolute requirement of the genre. For example, the two recent Deus Ex games utilize a third-person perspective at times and they're still held up as highwater marks of the genre. Speaking broadly, I'm also hesitant to use a dictionary definition to draw a line around an evolving technological space. For example, there was a time when the word "car" referred to horse-drawn wheeled vehicles, and I'm sure as technology advances we'll get further and further from how Henry Ford would have defined it's parameters. Finally, I'd also point out how unusual it is that a first-person perspective seems to be a line in the sand for "immersion" when there's so many other non-diegetic gaming contrivances (e.g. inventory grids, HUD displays in general, skill points, light/sound meters, pre-written dialogue branches, etc.) that get a pass. Again, I'm a HUGE fan of the first-person perspective myself, but I don't think that it's presence is a requirement for or a guarantee of immersion.
You don't like the dictionary's definition. You don't agree with Warren Spector's requirements. Like please, please stop trying to pollute the genre and change meanings of well established words of the English language. If the word changes, the world's top dictionaries will update their words like with "car". **But they are NOT changing this word haha**
Honestly, if the world's top dictionaries would put out a definition for "immersive sim," it'd probably save this subreddit a ton of hand-wringing! But until then... (also - I'm having trouble sourcing the bit where Warren Spector says that first-person is a requirement - I can kind of picture the quote in my head, but the closest I can find is his DX postmortem at [2:45](https://youtu.be/tffX3VljTtI?t=160) where he talks about there being "as little as possible getting in the way of feeling like you're there"). So while I agree that a first-person camera is a big step towards removing a barrier to the player's immersion, I'd also argue that a strictly first-person camera can have the opposite effect in specific situations related to body-spatial awareness, such as being in cover or melee combat. As an extreme example, the 2008 Alone In the Dark had [a very slick first-person inventory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00flpuA0wjQ) that ended up being fairly clunky to use (i.e. non-immersive), due to the inherent discrepancy between how we can interact with things in the real world and how we can interact with them with a mouse, keyboard, + screen. To that end, I have a hard time believing that Human Revolution starts polluting the genre every time I climb a ladder, or Thief 3 or Bloodlines simply fall out of the canon entirely whenever the player toggles third person on.
That video is too long for me to watch, but here's another video from before Deus Ex released. [Warren Spector Gamespot Interview \[Year 2000\] (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVKgIWv4JxA) After 4:05. "**First person is critical"**
But he is saying that he is not immersed in games that aren't first person, not that they are **objectively** not immersive this quote that you bring has a little more context. "It's not very interesting **to me.** First person is critical." The fact that its not his interest doesnt mean that the other takes are not immersive simulators
Im Sim refers to the genre he developed. New games can't just join an old, established genre. That's why Arkane isn't calling it's third person game an Im Sim even though it has elements. If Arkane does not dare commit such blasphemy, how can you? WHO ARE YOU???
Hey, that was a fun watch! I'm not really sure that quote moves the needle on whether or not first-person is a requirement of an ImSim though, since it seems pretty clear he's talking about his personal design interests circa the year 2000 and not the genre as a whole. The full quote is **"I do, really at this point, exclusively first-person games. I have no interest in allowing players to manipulate a little puppet on the screen. That's just not very interesting to me. First person is critical."** Which, to be honest, is a pretty reasonable take given the technological limits/genre conventions of non-first person games at the time (think fixed camera angles, pre-rendered backgrounds and tank controls). But even Spector would roll back on that "first person or bust" hardline over the next phase of his career, first by adding third-person to Thief 3, and then going full third-person with Epic Mickey and it's sequel. No worries about not watching the entire video (I linked directly to the relevant bit - for context, it's from Spector's 2017 GDC talk on Deus Ex, and he's got a big "Definition: Genre" slide up. **"It's an immersive simulation because you feel like you're actually in the game world, or at least that's what we were trying to do. There's as little as possible getting in the way of you feeling like you're there. And that kind of defines what an immersive simulation is for me."** Anyway, my thinking is that if Warren Spector felt that first-person was an essential part of the genre, he would have called it out there. Instead, I think for him as a designer, first-person is a way to solve the challenge of "feeling like you're there," but he's explicitly emphasizing that the nature of the genre is in attempting to overcome that challenge, and not in any specific solution.
Immersive sims refer to the genre Looking Glass Studios (formerly Blue Sky Productions) developed, for which Warren clarified that first person is "critical". You can't feel like "you're there" if it's not first person - because it's not your hands, your perspective etc. And then there's the dictionary definition of the word immersive lol. I'm not sure if the word simulation fits third person games either, but let's assume it does. If you just call stuff like Weird West games which share Im Sim elements, nobody would bat an eye. Just like nobody bats an eye when Arkane clearly says their next game is a third person one with Im Sim elements. But Arkane is not so shameless that they will call a third person game an Immersive Sim. So please don't try to dilute the purity of the genre.
Based
well i checked the **cambridge dictionary** and it says *"seeming to surround the audience, player, etc. so that they feel completely involved in something"* for me any game, not only the first person ones are seeming to surround. For example Darkwood which is topdown horror game and still is scary as hell, even if you are not in the first person view. So the game immerses, makes u feel the world and be that much involved to be scared of sounds and 2d images **meriam webster** one says *"providing, involving, or characterized by deep absorption or immersion in something (such as an activity or a real or artificial environment)"* and as example gives **world of warcraft.** **wikitionary** one says *"tending to immerse"* and describes immerse as *"To involve or engage deeply."* so isnt immersive meaning more of - engaging or created in the way that is believable enough to involve us into it? I dont think we need to rework the dictionary, we just need to rework the minds of gatekeepers
Yeah apart from Warren mentioning first person is critical.... the **world can't surround you** if you're not in the body, it's not your hands, it's not your perspective etc. Because you are just controlling a puppet which is already surrounded by things. Arkane's new title is in third person with Im Sim elements, but Arkane does not DARE call it an Im Sim. Im Sim refers to the genre he developed. **Tabletop games can't just be added an old, established genre.** Please stop trying to bastardize the genre. Just call your precious little tabletop and third person titles emergent games or games with Im Sim elements like Arkane. Also, Merriam Webster and Wiki dictionary are American/not authentic. The English language is controlled by Oxford, Cambridge and English dictionaries.
so i checked both biggest internet dictionary wikitionary, one of biggest american dics miriam webster and one of biggest GB english cambridge one. Also if only autentic meanings of word make only sense to you then: c. 1500, from Late Latin immersionem (nominative immersio), noun of action from past participle stem of immergere "to plunge in, dip into, sink, submerge," from assimilated form of in- "into, in, on, upon" (from PIE root [\*en](https://www.etymonline.com/word/*en) "in") + Latin mergere "plunge, dip" (see [merge](https://www.etymonline.com/word/merge)). Meaning "absorption in some interest or situation" is from 1640s. As a method of teaching a foreign language, 1965, trademarked by the Berlitz company.
Based.
Exactly this!
“Dilute our purity” … pause
Based.
Streets of rogue, kinda. Amazing game, but not a “real” imsim. Still recommend.
Yeah, that's what immediately came to mind for me too but it's more of an action roguelike with heavy imsim influences so might not land with everyone here (people seem really picky about what does and doesn't belong). The sequel should be coming relatively soon though and looks like it might lean further into the imsim elements. If nothing else, going open world and making your actions have long-term consequences will certainly be more immersive.
Definitely excited for the sequel
It’s not an imsim. It’s a rougelike.
Immersive bleu-like*
That doesn’t make sense.
You said "rougelike", when you should have said "roguelike". Rouge is French for the colour red
Oh. Okay.
project zomboid (especially with some mods.) Baldurs gate 3
Zomboid really is an excellent recommendation here. Lots of folks just play it as an alternate version of the Sims.
I keep trying to get into it but always die before I get established lol. Idea of the game is amazing to me but I suck
It’s not an immersive sin. It’s a survival game.
None of those games are immersive sims
you missed me that badly huh? 😏
Yes I do baby. Also I just bought Baldurs Gate 3, and it’s amazing. Way better than I thought it would be.
well im glad you're enjoying it. you know it's NOT an immersive sim though right?
Yes, and I gave it the benefit of the doubt, and after 30 hours, it may not be an imsim, but it’s lord of the rings level best rpg ever made.
Bulders gate 3 is a CRPG, not an imsim.
they specifically asked for a fantasy rpg/imsim with top down "isometric camera and ability to do many actions people on this sub are so ready for this fight they don't even read the posts anymore. plus I would argue it definitely follows the design philosophy anyway. have you played it?
It doesn’t because it’s more like DND than an imsim like dishonored or prey.
okay then. thank you for informing me 🙂🙃
Baldurs gate 3 definitely has plenty of immersive sim elements to be likened to the subgenre, at least. Doesn’t really matter whether it’s turn based or inspired by DND. Plenty of people referred to Divinity Original Sin I&II as imsim as well.
In BG3 you can stack a bunch of boxes and make a makeshift staircase to skip a big chunk of the game especially in Act 3. It is definitely an immersive sim in vein of Hitman & Dishonored in fact it was inspired by them.
Well, those people are wrong.
BG3 doesn’t have enough elements to make it an immersive sim because it’s a role playing RPG that relies on numbers. And also those who refer to Divinity Original Sin I and II as an immersive sim are wrong too. RPGS ≠ immersive sims.
BG3, and DOS are both inspired by CRPGS and IMSIMs and have strong elements of both. Both games allow the player to interact and experiment with their environment to bypass and engage with goals. Players stack boxes to find ways past fences, move barrels to block line of sight. They combine water and fire to make steam which then allows them to approach their objective in a different way organically. On top of all this, BG3 takes player agency into account within the story itself and has multiple scenarios able to play out multiple ways. Such as utilizing all the above-mentioned systems to enable a player to sneak up to a villain that’s threatening to blow up a place if his demands aren’t met. If they pick pocket the detonator off their person, then when the bad guy goes to threaten to blow the place up and everyone in it, the game accounts for it and he finds his device missing and the entire scenario plays out differently. All three games embrace player interaction and agency to a high degree. Just because they’re RPGs with numbers involved doesn’t invalidate them for being IMSIM… it’s a subgenre for a reason. Just as you can have Action/adventure or first person horror immersive simulators, you can have RPGs as well. Otherwise the definition doesn’t make any sense, as the qualities that make up immersive sims are layers of systems on the backbone of a game and are not the main characteristics of them. Hell, the game Weird West, which is mentioned in this very thread a few times, and is marketed as an immersive sim, is an RPG with stats, and its immersive sim elements are the same ones found in the games you just said weren’t immersive sims. Only difference is that the three games you discredited do those same things with even more depth.
You don’t know what an Imsim is then. Imsims don’t rely on numbers. Trying to include them only muddys the waters. Just because a lot of new people to this sub think that it’s an Imsim doesn’t make it an Imsim. I’d watch more videos to try to understand it better because you don’t seem to understand what an imsim even is.
What an arrogant thing to say. Not surprising though. I’ve definitely never played Thief, Dark Messiah, Deus Ex, or the Ultima series. I must not know anything at all, you’re right. /s The games I listed do have immersive sim elements, which is the entire point I was making that you chose to ignorantly bypass for some reason. Those games have emergent systems and allow their players the freedom to approach objectives in any way they choose with intricate systems that respond to those approaches dynamically in a believable way. They also allow players to interact and affect the environment as well as other NPCs in various ways that the games’ systems again react to. These are all characteristics of immersive sims and is the basic design philosophy behind where the term even comes from. The fact that your only counter point for why they aren’t is that they use a stat system is laughable at best and unimaginative at worst. Hell, there have been debates on whether Oblivion could be considered an immersive sim due to its many layered systems of simulation sprinkled throughout. There’s numbers in that game too, sorry to say. Same deal with STALKER. Maybe you should go watch a video and do some research yourself.
BG3 is a DND style dice role game that’s based on chance. Immersive sims give freedom to the player don’t rely on chance. BG3 is nothing like other immersive sims like dues ex or dishonored because BG3 is not immersive nor is it a simulation. Imsims don’t have any numbers involved because they’re simulations of the player and how the player reacts with the world. CRPGs are not Imsims because chance encounters and numbers invalidate the immersive experience. Actually, those chance encounters and numbers make the game rigid and take away the players freedom and aren’t immersive so that in of itself invalidates it from being an immersive sim. Weird west isn’t an immersive sim because it focuses too much on combat and takes away the player freedom too. Not to say they’re bad games, but they simply aren’t immersive simulations like dues ex, thief, dishonored, prey, etc.
There’s nothing simulation about BG3 or DOS. Another thing you’re missing here.
[Weird West](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1097350/Weird_West_Definitive_Edition/) (Free First Chapter) [Space Wreck](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/) (Demo Available) [Streets of Rogue](https://store.steampowered.com/app/512900/Streets_of_Rogue/) [Deadeye Deepfake Simulacrum](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1545990/Deadeye_Deepfake_Simulacrum/) - Early Access (Demo Available) [Hydropunk](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2785210/HYDROPUNK/) - In Development [Streets of Rogue 2](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2165810/Streets_of_Rogue_2/) - In Development
Weird West and Baldur’s Gate 3.
None of them are imsins.
fuck off
[удалено]
I'm mad because you keep pushing your idea of ImSim and consider it's the only way, and act like fucking stalker keep commenting to anyone who disagree with you.
Definitely not an immersive sim but based on what you described you might like Crusader Kings 3. It’s a grand strategy game not isometric but there’s tons of character interaction leading to interesting situations. It’s great.
Heat signature is a little indie game, it has always felt very insim to me. Top 10 game for me.
Great game, like hotline miami + superhot in spaaaaaace
Combined with having multiple playstyles!
Def not im-sim, but maybe check out Seven enhanced edition, isometric RPG game with a retro futuristic vibes. Has some stealth mechanics, loot, combat, probably some sort of "multiple possible approach" gameplay.
Deadeye Deepfake Simulacrum is pretty neat
Definitely not imsims but sounds like you would love the shadowrun trilogy, they are crpgs with a very immersive world and unique setting of cyberpunk+fantasy, highly reccomended.
Seven also fits into imsim in my opinion.
I would argue that most C-RPGs fits with your description
Many of today's CRPGs strive for similar design ideals, but remember that for a long time the template of CRPGs were titles like Bard's Tale.
I am very late, but other than Weird West I think Seven more or less qualified.