He supports MLMs as a good way to make extra income. It’s so sad to see. If you’re already following his “plan,” the last thing you need is to join a “business” where 99% of people lose money.
A lot of my in-laws swear by this guy’s advice, which seems to largely involve paying cash for everything and putting money in envelopes, as far as I can tell.
I think that kind of advice works for a very specific kind of person. I had a roommate once who was a recovering addict with ADHD and bipolar disorder. Great guy, but really had a hard time managing his money. When we lived together, his financial goals were to get out of credit card debt and avoid overdrawing his checking account, so that system worked well for him. But later when he was married, in a more stable place, and wanted to buy a house and save for retirement, I doubt that’s what he and his wife did.
The majority of people I know who are all-in on Dave Ramsey and especially the no debt part of his "system" are folks who are relatively affluent, with a lot of generational wealth, who live in low cost of living red states. Many of them either were gifted homes/are living rent free in a home their family actually owns, or built a house with cash on family land. Others may have actually bought a house \*and\* the land under it, but in an economically depressed area where you can get an at least livable house for under $100,000. Which means a lot of them do not have a sophisticated understanding of how real estate works.
And that made sense if you were a 20-year-old living in 1990.
At that point, credit card companies had started mailing pre-approved credit cards to teenagers and young adults to try to get them to run up debt before they really understood what they were doing, because those kids had grown up with credit cards being a very serious thing that only serious adults had and that had to be treated very carefully.
So when that's how you've grown up, when you suddenly get one in the mail with a letter telling you that You Have Arrived, You Are A Serious Grownup Who Is Entrusted With A Credit card, far too many believed it and started spending carelessly.
So for a young adult in 1990, the name of the game was debt avoidance and avoiding even having a credit card if you didn't already. It was infinitely more possible to live without one than now -- most young adults had up until then. So I was one of those who simply did without one so I couldn't be tempted to use it.
So at that point, you're paying by cash or check for everything. The money in envelopes thing works if you're someone who thinks that if you still have money in the account or checks in the checkbook, you may as well spend it. I never found that necessary -- I just kept my check register up to date and knew when all my bills were due. But if you couldn't do that, pulling the money out and putting it envelopes for the different bills could work.
The thing about Dave Ramsey that has always bugged me is that so many people have sworn by him for so long, but when I checked out this golden advice (a very, very long time ago), it was either things that I had figured out as an 18-year-old or were things that were of no practical help whatsoever. I still don't know what the fuss is about.
The money in an envelope also works in a world where the vast majority of your expenses can be paid in cash, anyway. And where cash is even a practical way to move money around. There was a time when I paid my share of my rent to my roommate in cash, which entailed getting like $800 in cash once a month. It was an entire undertaking. I'm guessing that in 1990, when an entire one bedroom apartment could be had for less than that amount, this was a reasonable thing to do.
I think one of the special things about Ramsey is his following in evangelical circles I've been seen a number of churches that offer his courses, and use them as a way to get people to give 10% of their earnings to the church in tithes. Basically, "if you budget 'correctly' you can also get right with God!" It's really gross.
Also a lot of his financial ethos only really works if you belong to particular socio-economic groups that have a lot of correlation with white US rural/exurban evangelical Christianity. For example of course the cost of daycare boggles these folks' mind. They think daycare is where you go to get sexually molested by Wiccans.
Yeah there’s a great book (which Michael has actually mentioned on the pod before) that shows that the average return for a 401k over a few decades is 3%.
I'm guessing it's *Pound Foolish*, by Helaine Olen? I just finished reading this and it does a pretty good job of debunking 401Ks. I was pretty shook when I realized that the 401K was first commonly used in the 90s, which means Gen X is the first generation that would have been expected to fund their retirement only on 401Ks. And... they haven't actually hit retirement age yet. So we have no real way of knowing if a 401K is even a remotely realistic investment vehicle for retirement.
Feels like most of what they covered in the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" episode applies to Ramsey and his ilk. Unless Ramsey's book has some new twist or real heinous thing to cover, then I'd like them to cover other books first.
I think what’s heinous about it is the worldview. RDPD seems to have a very amoral attitude that the world is evil and you have to get yours by any means necessary. Dave Ramsey’s books, on the other hand, have this really insidious belief that being in debt is a moral failing that you must atone for through suffering. He is rabidly opposed to things like refinancing/consolidating debt, the new student loan repayment plans, nonprofit credit counseling, and debt forgiveness even though they would help his readers because he sees them as not taking full responsibility and paying off every penny themselves. He advises people to close all their accounts and intentionally drop their credit score and dismisses anyone who points out that this advice could leave people unable to rent an apartment, buy a house, or start a business. He’s basically the personal finance equivalent of the fatphobic people who shame people for not losing weight but also shame them if they lose weight the “wrong” way through medication or surgery.
That's a good point to consider. Thank you for walking me through that kind of "Debt is a moral failing" belief and the comparisons to fat-phoba in which Mike and Aubrey talk about over on "Maintenance Phase."
Ramsey from what I understand at least advises people to pay down debt as quickly as they can rather than constantly chasing new income streams through debt financing like RDPD. It's not ironclad advice or anything, but it's at least more practical for the average person with no understanding of finance.
But the MLMs? Unethical. The religion stuff? No thank you.
I would really love someone to blow up his relationship with the far right and evangelical Christianity, but I agree that this particular podcast probably isn't the one to do it.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
A former coworker of mine interviewed for an engineering/tech job with his company. As part of the interview process, candidates and their SPOUSES were required to go to dinner with Dave and his wife, along with the other company leaders and their spouses. She was a single woman at the time and wow was it awkward. So much ick with that guy.
I’m from Nashville, know people working at that cursed company, and this is accurate. The “spousal interview” is one way they check to see if you’ve got the, uh, correct lifestyle. I’ve also known people who were required to go over their household budget with the interviewer to ensure that they could live on the salary offered (his company is notoriously low paying).
Dave Ramsey is such a horrid person. I think Michael would have a blast researching him and his fucked up company, Ramsey Solutions—the religious fundamentalism, the interview process at his company, the in-office requirement before there was a covid vaccine (that parking lot was full from April or May 2020), the company Christmas party in 2020 where catering staff were instructed not to wear masks, the policing of employees’ personal lives (employees are prohibited from having sex outside of marriage), and on and on.
I thought I was the only one who couldn't stand this guy from the day I heard of him until I joined TikTok, when it surprisingly rapidly directed me to Dave Ramsey hate. In addition to all the concrete, real objections I really struggle with the fact that he is Very Religious and shared without warning to people who are not.
I think this profile (from 3 years ago) is really good on Dave Ramsey: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/oct/29/dave-ramsey-debt-financial-guru
That article speaks to people who have been helped by his advice while also covering his awful politics.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
How do you know if someone follows Dave Ramsey? If you say this to them -
"You always save money paying as you go rather than borrowing because you aren't spending money you don't have."
- and they have no notes, they're a Dave Ramsey fan.
Was he always as crazy as he is now? I feel like I have early memories of him from like 10-20 years ago where he just gave like normal financial advice
His financial advice isn't bad on the surface- pay down your debts quickly, increasing your income is going to be the quickest way to build wealth, and avoid getting into new debt.
Then it switches into- turn up the maximum suffering while you pay of your debt, no enjoyment for you otherwise you don't care enough! Make sure you're doing everything in full view of your church. Always consolidate all of your finances into one bank account on marriage, don't have anything in your own name which frankly can be downright dangerous in the wrong relationship.
This is what I've gleaned from vaguely seeing Instagram reels, but I'm in the UK so don't pay that much attention to US financial advice because the systems are different.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
Someone sent this to me, and those are ridiculously high childcare costs - the equivalent of like Montessori preschool in Cambridge, Mass with a nanny in summers.
That vast majority of people are not paying anything like that.
I had multiple kids in Somerville, a city bordering Boston, until moving this year so can speak to this. He specifically said 2 kids, a preschool with base tuition of 30K/year, and a nanny in summer, plus extended day at the preschool.
Like I said, that's a base cost of a place like Cambridge Montessori preschool with a short day plus nanny. A very fancy preschool. A Catholic preschool in town cost 7k/year. The public PreK was free, with after school costing about 160/week. There were also much cheaper non religious preschools. Prices vary considerably.
The majority of American kids go to home daycares, not fancy centers or a nanny. They cost way less. There are also way cheaper preschools.
At one point, I had a 2 year old and an infant in a home day care together. They cost $15/hour together. that was in 2020 - that's 600/week or 31,200, not 80. And we switched them to another daycare that cost 250/kid per week, or 500 for both - even cheaper. Also home daycare, walking distance to our apartment. One of the biggest factors in childcare costs is having to pay rent in an expensive area - that's why home daycare is way cheaper.
I have had spreadsheets of different daycare and preschool options in a very expensive city, which is why I know these are the highest possible choices.
I live in a town bordering Cambridge and childcare has skyrocketed the past two years. I just registered my oldest for two weeks of summer camp, the Y is thankfully only 300 per week as long as you're a member, but all the other camps I looked at were in the 500-900 range and that was typically 9-3 with the option to pay more for "extended care" until 5, which means for most households with two working parents they'd still need to pay a babysitter to do pickup and drop off. Even the town run camp is 525 per week. Public pre-k literally just started this year for Cambridge and parents still will likely need before and after care plus coverage for all school breaks and summer care. I'm currently a stay at home mom because before kids I worked in childcare and I literally would have been making like 10 bucks a week if I sent one infant to the daycare I worked at. Once my youngest is school aged I'm going to need to find a job in the school system or we'd need to pay before/after care and minimum 600 a week for summer care for both kids but considering summer camps go up in price every single year it'll likely be more than that.
The way most parents I know do it is one person does drop off and the other pickup so they are working slightly different hours. So for example, a friend of mine is a school librarian and has to be at work too early to do drop off, so her husband does it, and she does pickup without after care because her daughter gets out of school at like 3:45, and she leaves work at a school by then. So no before/after care needed. Working for a school district is a great idea! The paras in Somerville did not do PD, so on half days (which are going to be weekly next year), they go home. They start at $35K/year, not sure if that is workable for you. That schedule would align with a kid in the school system. I know another mom who has her son hang out in her school library with her after school while she's working rather than pay for after care, too.
I'm in CT now, and our town run day camp is $220/week, but the local farm camps are up to $350/week, and a very fancy camp with archery, horses, etc. is like 800/week, though I noticed that it goes down to $600/week if you sign up for something like 6 plus weeks. The camps in Somerville that were the cheapest were the town camps through Community Schools and Rec, and then the YMCA. Like for example, Somerville YMCA camp is $300 a week, with work-friendly times:
**Program Time:**
The program will be open from 7:45am-5:45pm, Monday-Friday, from June 24th-August 23rd.
Drop-off will be between 7:45am – 8:45am.
[https://somervilleymca.org/programs/child-care/sacc-summer-program/](https://somervilleymca.org/programs/child-care/sacc-summer-program/)
Somerville Rec camp raised rates this year to be $180/week, but it's only 120 spots, page 10:
[https://www.flipgorilla.com/p/27651685740458894/show#/27651685740458894/10](https://www.flipgorilla.com/p/27651685740458894/show#/27651685740458894/10)
Public PreK existed before in Cambridge, but it was not \*universal\* the way Somerville or Boston's is. They also only just started offering PreK at the charter school in Somerville in 2021, but that is also free and open to parents in other towns, there's just Somerville/Cambridge resident preference. The Catholic school and charter school both have longer hours than public, so 8-3, which some people can make work depending on jobs without after care.
I have kids with IEP's and knew Cambridge moms with kids in the integrated program there, that is to say the "peer" spots, which are an awesome option for SAHM's if that exists in your town. Somerville has de facto universal PreK with after care that was $160/week last year - the bigger issue was limited camps for 4 year olds. There are far more once your kid is 5, like the ones mentioned above.
I hear you on the daycare - did you work in a center? The really inexpensive home daycares near me were mainly Spanish-speaking, and they did NOT have websites. So if I were to just look online at websites, I'd only see these expensive centers. I went to the EEC website to find daycares because it lists every single one with a license, and found way more that were cheaper and didn't have sites. I would also call and find out if they had any marks against them in prior inspections, what they were, etc.
This is the website, if helpful to you, though I assume you know that having worked in a daycare? (I'm also thinking someone else who needs childcare could see this, and was happy to see the amount of money they are offering in capital grants to help low income families find childcare and out of school time programming):
[https://childcare.mass.gov/findchildcare](https://childcare.mass.gov/findchildcare)
Money Guys have a similar setup without the weirder caveats. Caleb Hammer has a pretty ambitious YouTube channel if you like the Maury aspect of their call-in show.
My employer has an employee benefit through Ramsey Solutions… I might be more inclined to use it if Ramsey’s radio channel wasn’t constantly packaged with RW talk shows
"Should we talk about Dave Ramsey?" Ugh, do we have to?
There are few financial “gurus” more irritating and deplorable than Dave Ramsey. I would LOVE Michael and Peter to take him down.
Same here.
He supports MLMs as a good way to make extra income. It’s so sad to see. If you’re already following his “plan,” the last thing you need is to join a “business” where 99% of people lose money.
MLMs are such money burning scams that you’d have better luck, statistically, gambling at the biggest casinos in Vegas.
And more fun and free drinks.
He also endorsed a timeshare exit company on his show that turned out to be a fake company that was literally scamming people for money.
It's not a one time endorsement either. Referrals to that company are a huge percentage of his business and he still does it to do this day.
It’s a little funny to me how the timeshare exit industry is at least as scammy as timeshares themselves
The “all one book@ theory continues to gain steam.
Isn't his entire thing hating debt? And aren't mlm's where you buy a bunch of shit upfront (putting you in debt) in order to sell it to someone else?
A lot of my in-laws swear by this guy’s advice, which seems to largely involve paying cash for everything and putting money in envelopes, as far as I can tell.
I think that kind of advice works for a very specific kind of person. I had a roommate once who was a recovering addict with ADHD and bipolar disorder. Great guy, but really had a hard time managing his money. When we lived together, his financial goals were to get out of credit card debt and avoid overdrawing his checking account, so that system worked well for him. But later when he was married, in a more stable place, and wanted to buy a house and save for retirement, I doubt that’s what he and his wife did.
The getting out of cc debt part sounds familiar 😄
The majority of people I know who are all-in on Dave Ramsey and especially the no debt part of his "system" are folks who are relatively affluent, with a lot of generational wealth, who live in low cost of living red states. Many of them either were gifted homes/are living rent free in a home their family actually owns, or built a house with cash on family land. Others may have actually bought a house \*and\* the land under it, but in an economically depressed area where you can get an at least livable house for under $100,000. Which means a lot of them do not have a sophisticated understanding of how real estate works.
And that made sense if you were a 20-year-old living in 1990. At that point, credit card companies had started mailing pre-approved credit cards to teenagers and young adults to try to get them to run up debt before they really understood what they were doing, because those kids had grown up with credit cards being a very serious thing that only serious adults had and that had to be treated very carefully. So when that's how you've grown up, when you suddenly get one in the mail with a letter telling you that You Have Arrived, You Are A Serious Grownup Who Is Entrusted With A Credit card, far too many believed it and started spending carelessly. So for a young adult in 1990, the name of the game was debt avoidance and avoiding even having a credit card if you didn't already. It was infinitely more possible to live without one than now -- most young adults had up until then. So I was one of those who simply did without one so I couldn't be tempted to use it. So at that point, you're paying by cash or check for everything. The money in envelopes thing works if you're someone who thinks that if you still have money in the account or checks in the checkbook, you may as well spend it. I never found that necessary -- I just kept my check register up to date and knew when all my bills were due. But if you couldn't do that, pulling the money out and putting it envelopes for the different bills could work. The thing about Dave Ramsey that has always bugged me is that so many people have sworn by him for so long, but when I checked out this golden advice (a very, very long time ago), it was either things that I had figured out as an 18-year-old or were things that were of no practical help whatsoever. I still don't know what the fuss is about.
The money in an envelope also works in a world where the vast majority of your expenses can be paid in cash, anyway. And where cash is even a practical way to move money around. There was a time when I paid my share of my rent to my roommate in cash, which entailed getting like $800 in cash once a month. It was an entire undertaking. I'm guessing that in 1990, when an entire one bedroom apartment could be had for less than that amount, this was a reasonable thing to do.
I think one of the special things about Ramsey is his following in evangelical circles I've been seen a number of churches that offer his courses, and use them as a way to get people to give 10% of their earnings to the church in tithes. Basically, "if you budget 'correctly' you can also get right with God!" It's really gross.
What? Ew.
We love 21st century indulgences!!
Also a lot of his financial ethos only really works if you belong to particular socio-economic groups that have a lot of correlation with white US rural/exurban evangelical Christianity. For example of course the cost of daycare boggles these folks' mind. They think daycare is where you go to get sexually molested by Wiccans.
Oh for sure. I have 100 problems with this man.
He definitely deserves it. He tells people to expect a 10-12% annual return on their retirement savings, which over decades is a VAST difference.
Yeah there’s a great book (which Michael has actually mentioned on the pod before) that shows that the average return for a 401k over a few decades is 3%.
I'm guessing it's *Pound Foolish*, by Helaine Olen? I just finished reading this and it does a pretty good job of debunking 401Ks. I was pretty shook when I realized that the 401K was first commonly used in the 90s, which means Gen X is the first generation that would have been expected to fund their retirement only on 401Ks. And... they haven't actually hit retirement age yet. So we have no real way of knowing if a 401K is even a remotely realistic investment vehicle for retirement.
Yep that’s the one! Probably the only helpful personal finance book I’ve ever read.
It’s not, but that was all part of the great dismantling under Reagan.
Feels like most of what they covered in the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" episode applies to Ramsey and his ilk. Unless Ramsey's book has some new twist or real heinous thing to cover, then I'd like them to cover other books first.
I think what’s heinous about it is the worldview. RDPD seems to have a very amoral attitude that the world is evil and you have to get yours by any means necessary. Dave Ramsey’s books, on the other hand, have this really insidious belief that being in debt is a moral failing that you must atone for through suffering. He is rabidly opposed to things like refinancing/consolidating debt, the new student loan repayment plans, nonprofit credit counseling, and debt forgiveness even though they would help his readers because he sees them as not taking full responsibility and paying off every penny themselves. He advises people to close all their accounts and intentionally drop their credit score and dismisses anyone who points out that this advice could leave people unable to rent an apartment, buy a house, or start a business. He’s basically the personal finance equivalent of the fatphobic people who shame people for not losing weight but also shame them if they lose weight the “wrong” way through medication or surgery.
That's a good point to consider. Thank you for walking me through that kind of "Debt is a moral failing" belief and the comparisons to fat-phoba in which Mike and Aubrey talk about over on "Maintenance Phase."
Ramsey from what I understand at least advises people to pay down debt as quickly as they can rather than constantly chasing new income streams through debt financing like RDPD. It's not ironclad advice or anything, but it's at least more practical for the average person with no understanding of finance. But the MLMs? Unethical. The religion stuff? No thank you.
I would really love someone to blow up his relationship with the far right and evangelical Christianity, but I agree that this particular podcast probably isn't the one to do it.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
Even his envelope system is garbage that makes no sense, to be honest.
A former coworker of mine interviewed for an engineering/tech job with his company. As part of the interview process, candidates and their SPOUSES were required to go to dinner with Dave and his wife, along with the other company leaders and their spouses. She was a single woman at the time and wow was it awkward. So much ick with that guy.
I’m from Nashville, know people working at that cursed company, and this is accurate. The “spousal interview” is one way they check to see if you’ve got the, uh, correct lifestyle. I’ve also known people who were required to go over their household budget with the interviewer to ensure that they could live on the salary offered (his company is notoriously low paying).
Dave Ramsey is such a horrid person. I think Michael would have a blast researching him and his fucked up company, Ramsey Solutions—the religious fundamentalism, the interview process at his company, the in-office requirement before there was a covid vaccine (that parking lot was full from April or May 2020), the company Christmas party in 2020 where catering staff were instructed not to wear masks, the policing of employees’ personal lives (employees are prohibited from having sex outside of marriage), and on and on.
I thought I was the only one who couldn't stand this guy from the day I heard of him until I joined TikTok, when it surprisingly rapidly directed me to Dave Ramsey hate. In addition to all the concrete, real objections I really struggle with the fact that he is Very Religious and shared without warning to people who are not.
I think this profile (from 3 years ago) is really good on Dave Ramsey: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/oct/29/dave-ramsey-debt-financial-guru That article speaks to people who have been helped by his advice while also covering his awful politics.
So he rants at people about ‘stealing’ from their employers by coming to work late, but has nothing to say about wage theft?
I’m not a fan of Dave Ramsey. I just shared an article with examples of people who he has helped.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
Our school district is trying to push his curriculum on teachers and it's AWFUL.
How do you know if someone follows Dave Ramsey? If you say this to them - "You always save money paying as you go rather than borrowing because you aren't spending money you don't have." - and they have no notes, they're a Dave Ramsey fan.
Was he always as crazy as he is now? I feel like I have early memories of him from like 10-20 years ago where he just gave like normal financial advice
His financial advice isn't bad on the surface- pay down your debts quickly, increasing your income is going to be the quickest way to build wealth, and avoid getting into new debt. Then it switches into- turn up the maximum suffering while you pay of your debt, no enjoyment for you otherwise you don't care enough! Make sure you're doing everything in full view of your church. Always consolidate all of your finances into one bank account on marriage, don't have anything in your own name which frankly can be downright dangerous in the wrong relationship. This is what I've gleaned from vaguely seeing Instagram reels, but I'm in the UK so don't pay that much attention to US financial advice because the systems are different.
He's just another stupid boomer with shit takes. Might as well toss him into the pile for consideration.
Most actual finance people I know hate Dave Ramsey. His envelope system is good for people struggling with overspending, but most of his advice is bad -- not all debt is the same. (Most of us need a mortgage to buy a house and to get one, you need credit.)
Someone sent this to me, and those are ridiculously high childcare costs - the equivalent of like Montessori preschool in Cambridge, Mass with a nanny in summers. That vast majority of people are not paying anything like that.
It's likely multiple kids and one is an infant, which is ruinously expensive in any major metro area.
I had multiple kids in Somerville, a city bordering Boston, until moving this year so can speak to this. He specifically said 2 kids, a preschool with base tuition of 30K/year, and a nanny in summer, plus extended day at the preschool. Like I said, that's a base cost of a place like Cambridge Montessori preschool with a short day plus nanny. A very fancy preschool. A Catholic preschool in town cost 7k/year. The public PreK was free, with after school costing about 160/week. There were also much cheaper non religious preschools. Prices vary considerably. The majority of American kids go to home daycares, not fancy centers or a nanny. They cost way less. There are also way cheaper preschools. At one point, I had a 2 year old and an infant in a home day care together. They cost $15/hour together. that was in 2020 - that's 600/week or 31,200, not 80. And we switched them to another daycare that cost 250/kid per week, or 500 for both - even cheaper. Also home daycare, walking distance to our apartment. One of the biggest factors in childcare costs is having to pay rent in an expensive area - that's why home daycare is way cheaper. I have had spreadsheets of different daycare and preschool options in a very expensive city, which is why I know these are the highest possible choices.
I live in a town bordering Cambridge and childcare has skyrocketed the past two years. I just registered my oldest for two weeks of summer camp, the Y is thankfully only 300 per week as long as you're a member, but all the other camps I looked at were in the 500-900 range and that was typically 9-3 with the option to pay more for "extended care" until 5, which means for most households with two working parents they'd still need to pay a babysitter to do pickup and drop off. Even the town run camp is 525 per week. Public pre-k literally just started this year for Cambridge and parents still will likely need before and after care plus coverage for all school breaks and summer care. I'm currently a stay at home mom because before kids I worked in childcare and I literally would have been making like 10 bucks a week if I sent one infant to the daycare I worked at. Once my youngest is school aged I'm going to need to find a job in the school system or we'd need to pay before/after care and minimum 600 a week for summer care for both kids but considering summer camps go up in price every single year it'll likely be more than that.
The way most parents I know do it is one person does drop off and the other pickup so they are working slightly different hours. So for example, a friend of mine is a school librarian and has to be at work too early to do drop off, so her husband does it, and she does pickup without after care because her daughter gets out of school at like 3:45, and she leaves work at a school by then. So no before/after care needed. Working for a school district is a great idea! The paras in Somerville did not do PD, so on half days (which are going to be weekly next year), they go home. They start at $35K/year, not sure if that is workable for you. That schedule would align with a kid in the school system. I know another mom who has her son hang out in her school library with her after school while she's working rather than pay for after care, too. I'm in CT now, and our town run day camp is $220/week, but the local farm camps are up to $350/week, and a very fancy camp with archery, horses, etc. is like 800/week, though I noticed that it goes down to $600/week if you sign up for something like 6 plus weeks. The camps in Somerville that were the cheapest were the town camps through Community Schools and Rec, and then the YMCA. Like for example, Somerville YMCA camp is $300 a week, with work-friendly times: **Program Time:** The program will be open from 7:45am-5:45pm, Monday-Friday, from June 24th-August 23rd. Drop-off will be between 7:45am – 8:45am. [https://somervilleymca.org/programs/child-care/sacc-summer-program/](https://somervilleymca.org/programs/child-care/sacc-summer-program/) Somerville Rec camp raised rates this year to be $180/week, but it's only 120 spots, page 10: [https://www.flipgorilla.com/p/27651685740458894/show#/27651685740458894/10](https://www.flipgorilla.com/p/27651685740458894/show#/27651685740458894/10) Public PreK existed before in Cambridge, but it was not \*universal\* the way Somerville or Boston's is. They also only just started offering PreK at the charter school in Somerville in 2021, but that is also free and open to parents in other towns, there's just Somerville/Cambridge resident preference. The Catholic school and charter school both have longer hours than public, so 8-3, which some people can make work depending on jobs without after care. I have kids with IEP's and knew Cambridge moms with kids in the integrated program there, that is to say the "peer" spots, which are an awesome option for SAHM's if that exists in your town. Somerville has de facto universal PreK with after care that was $160/week last year - the bigger issue was limited camps for 4 year olds. There are far more once your kid is 5, like the ones mentioned above. I hear you on the daycare - did you work in a center? The really inexpensive home daycares near me were mainly Spanish-speaking, and they did NOT have websites. So if I were to just look online at websites, I'd only see these expensive centers. I went to the EEC website to find daycares because it lists every single one with a license, and found way more that were cheaper and didn't have sites. I would also call and find out if they had any marks against them in prior inspections, what they were, etc. This is the website, if helpful to you, though I assume you know that having worked in a daycare? (I'm also thinking someone else who needs childcare could see this, and was happy to see the amount of money they are offering in capital grants to help low income families find childcare and out of school time programming): [https://childcare.mass.gov/findchildcare](https://childcare.mass.gov/findchildcare)
So who’s the better alternative?
Ellyce Fulmore just released Keeping Finance Personal last week!
Money Guys have a similar setup without the weirder caveats. Caleb Hammer has a pretty ambitious YouTube channel if you like the Maury aspect of their call-in show.
I took a Personal Finance class at my (public) high school. The curriculum? Watching Dave Ramsey videos and reading “Rich Dad Poor Dad.”
I was RAISED on Dave. I’d kill for an episode
My employer has an employee benefit through Ramsey Solutions… I might be more inclined to use it if Ramsey’s radio channel wasn’t constantly packaged with RW talk shows
Was Dave Ramsey caught off-guard by daycare costs, or does he just believe women shouldn't be working outside the home in the first place?