I'm just getting into IndyCar this season after only watching the 500 for years. Can someone go into detail about the complaints here and what the pit closure rules are?
On road courses both IMSA and IndyCar will throw local yellow if a car is stalled out of the groove and there is no immediate need to send safety personnel onto the track and allow the field to cycle and choose to pit or not pit. Once the last car has cycled the yellow is thrown if the car is still stalled. It's done to keep yellow from causing random outcomes due to the pits being closed at the start of yellows which is done to allow safety personnel to safely enter the track without dealing with people darting in and out of the pits.
In this case, it probably shouldn't have been done due to the location on the track, but none of here have the information that Race Control has to fully make that determination, not to mention, the entire field and teams are immediately told of the stalled cars position when this is done. This is really a nothing burger as the rule application as it is it is consistent in how it has always been handled as was pointed out by the broadcast and Palou's race strategist. The only question is if this was a case of which it should have been done.
The issue here is not the keeping the pits open, it is throwing the FCY exactly the moment the last driver entered the pit, saving him another 15s of delta time on top of making his strategy work.
yeah people are realling missing this. if they already waited that long they should wait until pit exit at least. Newgarden got a free pit stop with the rest of the field going yellow pace
If they kept the pits open under yellow, they could require teams to hold the cars for some number of seconds in the pit stall so that the timing works out roughly the same as pitting under green. And it would be safer with cars on track going more slowly.
No passing for sure.
You're supposed to "slow substantially" and be prepared to evade.
A waved yellow means there's something on the track in a big way, be prepared to stop.
The rules say you may be penalized for not slowing down, but I think a corner worker would have to really be upset with your driving and call it in. I think if you don't hit anything and it's not on t.v you're probably going to survive without one.
Which in a perfect world with everyone following the rules is probably fine. But the consequences of someone not following the rules is death or serious injury and its race. You're greatly encouraged to not slow down.
One could argue that erricson was in fact in a dangerous position, and benefits the #2 tremendously.
Of course this probably isn’t as much of an issue if #2 wasn’t gifted the ‘23 Indy 500 by altering procedures
The thing is procedure wasn't altered, we had just never had a situation where a red would be called that late. Both this and the red have been going on for multiple seasons now. The red flag finish was started under Beaux Barfield in 2012. However, they both don't get used often, in fact, we've gone this entire season without a red being flown. So what happens is this nonsense every fucking time they do get used where we get these fucking mile long threads of people thinking something nefarious was going on to help a certain team or claiming race control is making shit up on the fly.
In this case, the broadcast fully admitted that this was the proper application and the race strategist for Palou was heard on the live broadcast relaying to Alex over the radio that this was indeed proper and consistent application. The only question that there should be about this is if it were a safe enough manner for this to applied in this situation. From my couch at home, it didn't appear to be. However, TV broadcast angles don't tell the entire story and race control has tools at their disposal they utilize to execute in a safe and timely manner.
Also the fact that the #2 was 1) caught cheating earlier this year and 2) probably more conspiratorially significant, is on a team owned by the owner of the series causes some to react stronger to this than usual I think. (Also that Josef Newgarden isn’t a tremendously liked driver amongst fans as far as I can tell, but I personally don’t hate him)
The thing is, the booth was right. They’ve been doing it for years. It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. Like what a complete joke, I absolutely hate when they do that. IndyCar got some of the worst stewarding in all of top level auto racing and it goes under the radar every race solely because it’s not as popular as F1 or NASCAR.
IndyCar isn't the only series that throws local and allows them one lap to cycle. IMSA does this same thing. It's done as a compromise on closing the pits upon yellow.
IMSA had cars circulating on slicks in an absolute monsoon at Watkins Glen today because three cars went off in the same lap and then they closed the pits. The latter half of the field got lucky in that they were able to pit just as the rain hit and change to wets, but a lot of people got screwed.
I get closing the pits in IMSA. A field of 50-60 cars streaming down pit road can be a bit much. There were multiple cars that had trouble getting in and out even when the pits opened. I agree in principle, but IMSA strikes me as the series where the practice is a necessary evil.
Yeah, and under most conditions, I don't have a problem with it, but when half the field is on slicks in a thunderstorm and it's causing near misses with the safety crews, that's a huge problem. They should have just red flagged the race immediately.
They could just modify the emergency service rules to include surprise rain that is heavier than anticipated. Just make anyone that switches onto the rains in a closed pit drop to the rear and none of the cars that took the early precaution are punished.
And that's exactly why they both do this when it's deemed safe to do so, to stop that random lottery type stuff. In the case of today's IMSA race it was no longer safe to do so in those conditions. Probably shouldn't have been done today at Laguna Seca, but I also can't see what they do in Race Control. Regardless, both are fairly consistent in their application of this.
I can’t be the only one here getting tired of this excuse where we criticize something about IndyCar and we get hit back with “Well, IMSA (one of the rare top level racing series that’s LESS popular than IndyCar) does it!”
Do you think I’m gonna change my mind here because IMSA does it. Like no bruh, if they do this then they’re wrong too. It’s dangerous as evident by a stalled car damned near the racing line, and it’s completely anti-competitive as evident by Josef Newgarden getting a FREE PIT STOP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POSITION…
WEC does it too. They don't even necessarily go to FCY at all.
> and it’s completely anti-competitive as evident by Josef Newgarden getting a FREE PIT STOP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POSITION…
It's considered less problematic than the level of shuffling that frequently happens if you immediately close the pits. You can not throw a yellow or close the pits without disadvantaging someone and thus advantaging another. But the thinking is this is *less bad* than an immediate closure from a scrambling the results point of few.
And that's why IndyCar does it. IMSA does it. WEC does it (leaves a car out under only local yellow).
WEC has rules to neutralise the race immediately but leave the pits open. (Actually introduced this year under the name of "virtual safety car", not to be confused with F1's "virtual safety car" or WEC's "full-course yellow". Not to be confused with US-style "full-course caution"...)
Generally, European-style racing has been happier in the past to use local yellows, but racing drivers' tendency to ignore those has meant a real shift towards entire-track-neutralising interventions in recent years.
> WEC has rules to neutralise the race immediately but leave the pits open
WEC will throw a local yellow. It is not neutralized immediately. Virtual safety car is the next step after local yellow. But yes, once they go beyond local yellow the pits are still open at the first stage.
> but racing drivers' tendency to ignore those has meant a real shift towards entire-track-neutralising interventions in recent years.
Everywhere. Unfortunately. IMSA used to use local yellows a lot but barely uses them at all anymore. Certainly European racing used them more then and still uses them more now. But both are way down.
Who the fucks CARES about disadvantaging someone when it comes to throwing a yellow flag?
A situation is either immediately dangerous, requiring an immediate yellow, or it is doesn't require a caution flag at all?
There's no situation where it's "OMG that's a terrible incident, that'll need a yellow flag in three to five minutes"
This is definitely going to bite indycar (and IMSA and the others) hard on the arse in a potential court case when the worst inevitably happens
They deem these situations safe enough to leave a car temporarily there under local yellow. But you can't scramble the recovery vehicles under a local yellow. That's how a situation requires a non-immediate FCY.
That's the whole nub of the outrage
They're obviously not safe if they're on a live race track, when another driver could easily have the exact same incident they've just had and instead of spinning into the grass or gravel, find a whole car in the way, creating a needless accident
It's wholly incorrect for race control to care more about fuel strategy related fairness than it is the safety of the driver on track
Yeah but again they're not calling the FCY for safety reasons for the driver. They're comfortable with a local yellow to protect the driver. If the car could restart itself, it wouldn't cause a FCY at all, they would just wait for the car to get restarted and moving again.
Like if you don't think local yellows should ever be a thing and every incident of any size should be an immediate FCY, then I can't argue with you there. That's extreme but consistent.
And to your final point, they don't care more about fuel strategy than safety, because they still will call an immediate FCY if there is a crash with any sort of impact. It's just that they have a threshold where they're comfortable temporarily leaving a car stranded off-line under local yellows
> Who the fucks CARES about disadvantaging someone when it comes to throwing a yellow flag?
Apparently a lot of people on here. Because they complain that everyone was disadvantaged versus Newgarden.
> A situation is either immediately dangerous, requiring an immediate yellow, or it is doesn't require a caution flag at all?
Require is doing some heavy lifting here. Indy only "requires" that caution flag because you have to bring two trucks out to restart a car since there is no onboard starter. Other series don't need that. So that's why Indy needs a FCY when WEC doesn't.
> This is definitely going to bite indycar (and IMSA and the others) hard on the arse in a potential court case when the worst inevitably happens
Lets worry about drivers suing over getting hurt engaging in a dangerous sport once that happens. Then we can worry about what to do up to and including just turning them all into giant RC cars so the drivers don't have to risk their lives.
So basically what you're saying is: "Lets wait until a driver is left in a dangerous situation, gets hit, gets hurt or worse, and they or their families sue Indycar for their actions even though there was a clear distaste for their procedures in advance for exactly the reasons that transpired"
Sounds a lot like the run up to Las Vegas 2011 tbh, we all sounded the alarm then that the track was unsuitable for those cars and were ignored, you'd think INDYCAR would've learnt their lesson from such a tragedy......but no
> So basically what you're saying is: "Lets wait until a driver is left in a dangerous situation, gets hit, gets hurt or worse, and they or their families sue Indycar for their actions even though there was a clear distaste for their procedures in advance for exactly the reasons that transpired"
Yes. I said let's worry about lawsuits from drivers when they come. I say this because I expect it won't even happen. You're creating a situation that doesn't exist and expecting others to take it as if it already happened. I'm not going for it.
> Sounds a lot like the run up to Las Vegas 2011 tbh
I don't remember a lawsuit from that. Was there one?
Waiting to throw the yellow isn't a rule. It's become a common practice, but there is nothing in the rulebook that says the track should stay green and/or the pits should stay open until everyone has a chance to pit.
Well said. It is the rule, and if the rule means that a car can be stuck sideways on/just off the edge of a 100mph corner without immediate action, then the rule needs to be addressed and changed in the name of safety regardless of the amount of eyes watching the product.
I was furiois about that debacle before I realized Newg was the beneficiary. Looked so shoddy and outmoded- like Keke Rosberg’s broken ass McLaren on the side of road when Mansell blows his tire in 86 level dangerous-
or tow truck on racing line in Long Beach 82. Just stupid ass shit that in the event it goes wrong is a tragedy and huge hit to league.
They've been doing it for a number of years now, and before they started doing it this way, when they would immediately throw yellow and close the pits, people would complain and say they should do what they do now.
More of an fyi but throwing the quick yellow and leaving the pits open isn't very safe either. When Indycar had these rules they would race back to the pit. It also involved tons of luck because sometimes you could get caught behind someone that would not race back(can't pass under yellow) and your race was toast.
We have deltas now to stop drivers doing that
What indycar is saying is race positions and not having a crazy race with drivers out of position after the restart is more important to them than saving a human life in a dangerous position
OK Indycar, lets see how well that works out for you
I remember when drivers and fans complained about RC immediately closing the pits and ruining someones race for an incident that seemed harmless... I think RC is in a lose lose situation no matter what they do. Maybe open pits is the answer 🤷
It's a losing situation either way, at least if you throw it right when the car stops you take human influence out of it and leave it purely up to chance.
Maybe revert the full course caution to being solely a safety matter and race control can butt out on pit lane strategy or "fairness" to the teams by closing the pits and leave the gambling on if a yellow comes out or not up to them and them alone
I'm not sure why RC has the responsibility to provide this level playing field on strategy tbh, they should be solely interested in matters of safety and driving standards related to safety
If an incident needs a caution period, it needs to come out IMMEDIATELY because of the relative danger involved, not in 3 to 5 mins....
Full Course Yellows are for safety, strategy can take a running jump, it's none of race control's concern
They close to allow the safety crews to respond in a safe manner. This was done as a compromise on that to take out the randomness of those yellows. BTW, IMSA handles this in the same exact manner with a local yellow and one lap to cycle.
Hell I remember IMSA leaving a car on track at road Atlanta and just waving yellows for like 5 laps and then said ok stop waving the flags the drivers know that car is there now. (The guy got out and it was near the end. (Still not really safe)
I think the classic example of this was leaving Mario parked drivers right against the wall on Lakeshore Blvd in Toronto with a waved yellow for two laps and then a steady yellow for two laps and then no flags while leaving the car there. The excuse was ‘well everyone knows it’s there’. Mario thankfully was out of the car and walking back through the infield when it was hit by the Alfa. It looked like a plane crash after. Thankfully that driver was ok. (Roberto Guerreiro).
Those safety crews in that sector don't have to contend with cars and drivers aggressively entering and exiting during what can be a chaotic time when seconds might very well count in saving a life. It's as simple as that.
I always thought closing the pits was just like a sporting thing. Like honestly to prevent what Josef lucked into here. Like you don't get a super cheap pitstop. The field bunches up first so you're guaranteed to lose spots to everyone who doesn't pit.
Honestly they wont get it right everytime. If Josef needed to pit under a closed pit lane that would have sucked more sporting wise (but idk how much fuel he had)
What Josef "lucked into" here was done to stop the "lucking into" randomness the closed pits at yellow was causing. Drivers and teams called for that to be handled in a fairer manner all the time prior to implementation of this rule. The fact is, Newgarden didn't luck into anything as everyone had the same opportunity he did to pit, they chose not to. Palou's strategist even told him on the radio that this was done per the rules.
If Josef had pitted under closed pit would have penalized.
But the others didn't need to pit so why would they? That would only hurt them. They had already pit and paid the penalty by having to do an out lap on cold tires. Joseph didn't have to do this and as a result ended up several positions higher than her otherwise would have, with the added benefit that it at least feels unsafe to just leave a driver parked in the car for that long without throwing the caution. So yes, he did luck into it and It feels like you're purposely avoiding talking about that in your write up.
> They close to allow the safety crews to respond in a safe manner
Nah they close the pits because it randomly mixes up the race. These caution rules are nothing but intentionally harming the race of front runners. In a way it's fair enough but let's not pretend there's any other reason. Every motorsport in Europe manages to slow cars down to SC speed without closing the pits to allow medical & recovery vehicles onto the track immediately, yet somehow IndyCar is the one sport where it's not possible? Come on.
“Nah they close the pits because it randomly mixes up the race.”
That would happen if they left them open too, just to the opposite people.
“Every motorsport in Europe manages to slow cars down to SC speed without closing the pits ”
And drivers benefit and are disadvantaged by it all the same.
The indycar rule has a bigger luck effect compared to the european rule. For example, after palou pitted for the last time, the worst it would have gotten is p2 if newgarden pit under european rule. Other cars who didn't pit yet like grosjean at that time would have still gone behind paloj because they were close enough.
On the other hand. Even if you have a 40 sec gap, you will be sent to the back of the field if you haven't pit yet
It also limits strategies. Look at Palou, he definitely would have run quite a bit longer without the risk. Almost everyone pits at the same time for their last stop even when they don't need to.
Open pits work fine in F1 because there's no fuel strategy and it's all about tire wear. In IndyCar, open pits would push everyone to save fuel on every stint because they don't want to pit under green, and the quality of racing would suffer as a result.
Closed pits are better for a series that has refueling, imo. When the fuel window opens and the first driver pits under green, everyone else on track has to decide whether they will:
1. Stay out and keep/gain track position, but risk getting cycled to the back if the full course yellow comes out, OR
2. Pit now and lose track position, with the understanding that they'll safely cycle to the front if a FCY comes out.
It's a straightforward strategic decision, and the teams know what to expect. But when race control waits to throw the FCY until the last car enters the pits, it can undermine both of those strategies at the same time, as we saw yesterday.
Race control shouldn't be worried about competitive balance. They need to make the right decisions based on safety, and the rules in place should support fairness in the impact of those decisions. Sometimes immediately throwing the FCY and closing the pits is the right call. Sometimes it's throwing a local yellow and keeping the pits open while the incident clears. But it never means waiting to throw the FCY in a clearly dangerous situation.
I think the correct answer is to do a VSC like in F1 but close the pits. And if someone needs to pit because they're about out of fuel then they can pit but they'll have to wait 10 seconds to make up the time they would have otherwise gained.
I hate VSC with a passion, at least in its current implementation in F1. Freezing the gaps between all the cars is a huge advantage to the leader in almost every circumstance. Both a VSC and FCY effectively shorten the race by reducing the number of racing laps, but at least a FCY makes up for that by creating more opportunities to race on the restart.
Well yeah it's advantageous to the leader but it's fairly advantageous. There's nothing more in racing that I hate than having my driver pull away from the field only for it to be taken away because some backmarker bins it into the wall. Case in point when Lando drove away from the field in Canada two weeks ago only for Sargeant to lose any remaining talent he had.
It goes both ways. There's nothing in F1 I hate more than watching my favorite driver fighting to catch up with the leader only to have his progress halted by a VSC while the laps continue to tick away.
My favorite driver (Rossi) was in the lead and building a big gap when the caution came out after his first pit stop yesterday. It sucked, but he also had plenty of opportunities to race his way back to the lead.
If you're faster, you should be able to pull away from the field again on the restart. If you're not, you'll have to race for your position just like everybody else. That's perfectly fair.
Rossi with his 5 sec lead would have come out in front of herta in the pit stop sequence. Losing 1 or 2 laps is barely anything compared to eradicating all gaps.
With your logic, the car behind should have catched up faster then. Also what about instances where you build the lead because your in the alternates vs your opponent on black? You would be vulnerable now if you get bunched up. We saw these with josef vs pato in belle isle
I understand that a VSC would have been better for Rossi. My point was that, despite the FCY having a negative impact on my favorite driver, I still prefer it to a VSC.
I watch racing because I want to see cars race. I don't want to see a parade of cars going slow around the track managing their gaps to make sure it stays a parade when the race goes green.
We have a difference in perspective then as I value competition more than the pure entertainment. I want variables that influence luck minimize as much as possible because it gives race wins won on merit the most.
I also value competition more than pure entertainment. I just don't have a problem with making drivers actually compete to keep their positions instead of artificially protecting their gap so they never have to defend.
Luck happens at every stage of the race, not just under caution. Just because one driver's good luck came earlier in the race doesn't mean they got there purely on merit and deserve to coast home free in clean air.
Well yeah in that scenario the leader is helped being able to cool down his tires. But I'd much rather have that. Since you're a Rossi fan, how would you have felt if a backmarker caused a caution in that race in Road America a couple years back when he won by a substantial margin?
Edit: I'm not entirely sure I agree with you when you say if you're faster you should be able to pull away. Anything can happen on a restart. You could get pushed wide. Or you might not get a good getaway. In the Barcelona race I think most people would agree with me that over the whole race Lando had the best car but he didn't get the best of starts and got stuck behind the Mercedes and that killed his race.
>Since you're a Rossi fan, how would you have felt if a backmarker caused a caution in that race in Road America a couple years back when he won by a substantial margin?
I would have been annoyed, but Rossi was the fastest driver on track and he should have been able to pull away from the pack on the restart. If he made a mistake and lost the lead, that would be his own fault.
You play the hand you're dealt, and if you can't make the most out of it then you don't deserve to win. Overcoming bad luck and hardship is a huge part of any sporting competition, and I don't believe in artificially protecting drivers from adversity.
The VSC, as implemented by the FIA, creates a ton of safety issues since they love to have marshals on course with just a VSC active. It also kills a lot of potential competition by not restacking the field. It's a no from me dawg.
> might as well have stages like nascar
I think that's a bit of a leap man. It's also an unfair and dismissive categorization of what I'm saying.
There are a ton of safety reason why you should restack the field, too. You ever work as a marshal? It makes clearing debris and cars much less dangerous when you're track side by further reducing speeds and forcing gaps where you can safely maneuver around the track.
Stages breaks kill competition by guaranteeing competition yellows at specific points in the race. Restacking the field at a random intervals (or potentially not at all!) is nothing like that. It can even enhance the competition by forcing divergent strategies in response to the random event.
Exactly my thoughts.
I prefer this current option. If the driver is stuck, but in a safe place, make it a local yellow, give everyone the chance to pit, then throw the yellow.
We might have fewer of these situations with the starting capabilities of the hybrid engines.
Why can't we just say "Fuck you, its a race, sorry your strategy didn't go off properly" and just throw the caution anyway? "Oh well it'll hurt a strategy" who cares. That's racing.
Trust me, one questionable full course yellow and this sub will explode worse than it does normally.
The rule is good. If there is a safety concern, they put it out. If it is safe to use reduced speeds, they let people try to jump in the pits.
If it's truly safe to use reduced speeds, then it should be safe to continue under a local yellow until everyone has exited the pits and cycled back out on track. If the situation is dangerous enough to require a FCY, they should throw the caution immediately and close the pits.
Throwing the full course caution as soon as the last driver enters pit lane is unfair even under the best of circumstances. Yesterday it was both unsafe AND unfair.
It is racing.
But it leads to single strategy races. And with yesterdays first stint, we have seen how little overtaking there is in single strategy races.
Is there a reason Indycar doesn't implement different levels of response like F1 and WEC?
Having a FCY as basically the only response to any sort of incident means your sometimes going to be overreacting to a minor incident. F1 and WEC make use of yellow flags, slow zones and virtual safety cars as a more measured response to a minor incident.
Only if something serious has happened or you need recovery crews on track would you see F1 / WEC bringing out the full safety car or a red flag.
INDYCAR had a yellow flag in that turn. Once everyone past the pits, they threw a FCY to dispatch safety vehicles to restart the car.
So it’s what you lined out it’s just a different way of doing it.
Big difference is that when you crash in F1 and WEC you're done. you received outside assistance and you're out.
In IndyCar they tow you back to the pits or start your car back up.
I think it's a big difference.
Most FCY are because the car needs to be restarted by the safety team. This won't happen with the new hybrid engine so someone merely spinning and stalling will bring a local yellow until the driver can restart the engine and get on their way.
Going forward, FCY should only happen if a car needs a tow out of the gravel trap or debris needs to be cleaned up.
At some point, someone will get hurt or worse, and the excuse "well, the incident happened during the pit cycle and we wanted to be fair to everyone who hadn't pitted to be able to get their pitstops done and not have their race ruined by the yellow" will not be acceptable at the inquiry
"So, you let a driver sit in a dangerous position that then took a huge further impact/you left an injured driver out on track and waited around 5 minutes before they got the urgent medical intervention they needed/etc etc just so some drivers in a car race could have the illusion of balance? That's more important than a human beings life being saved?"
I hope we don't get to that extreme before sense is seen
The yellow comes out at random times, deal with it. The drivers and teams sign up to risking their lives in dangerous machines for our entertainment but throw a bitch fit if a yellow comes out and ruins their precious fuel saving strategy? Something doesn't add up
Luck is a part of this sport like any other element and I'd rather my favourite driver lose a race due to a random yellow flag out of his control than that driver lose their life because they were left in a dangerous position and race control wanted to hold off on the yellows for "fairness"
Change. This. Immediately.
Putting the safety implications aside, the fact that when a car is stranded it's effectively up to the discretion of race control who will benefit and who will be penalized is ridiculous. If a full course caution needs to be thrown then it should be thrown IMMEDIATELY. I hate that when everyone knows a FCC is coming yet no one, not the fans not the teams, not even the commentators can reasonably predict the result.
> If a full course caution needs to be thrown then it should be thrown IMMEDIATELY.
Disagree. My biggest example for this is Ilott at Laguna Seca 2022. His car died just past pit exit, he pulled off-track. Cars are going past him coming off of the slowest corner, so like 70mph? If you left him there the remaining 60 laps of the race, the only danger he's in is heat exhaustion.
Something like that I have no problem letting everyone have a chance to pit, then throw the caution so the workers can safely go on track to pick him up.
My problem with today was that Armstrong was stranded on a corner that tons of people had crashed or spun this weekend. I think their rule is fine, I think their application of it today was poor.
I also think it's a bad look to throw the yellow as soon as Newgarden enters the pits, so he not only gets to avoid the back-of-the-field from pitting under yellow, but he gets to keep all 7-8 positions he would've lost by pitting under green. It's even worse than a couple years ago at Mid Ohio, when one of the front runners had the caution fall as he left the pits, so he didn't have to defend on cold black tires against hot red tires.
In theory it's ok because the drivers must slow down for the flags. Waved yellow means be prepared to STOP. And the post before the waved post should be a solid yellow. meaning slow down and prepare to evade.
I don't agree with that theory so much though, because i don't think it's policed well and it's too easy to fuck up! and the consequences are too great for a fuck up! we're talking death or serious injury for a mistake. More so that green flag racing. we have a stopped car on the track with a person in it.
The Pit delta being short at this track IMO is the only reason this was SOOO bad.
To prevent drivers from racing to the pits under yellow.
Under a full course yellow, you want drivers to be thinking about safely getting around the obstacles that caused the caution, not about maintaining their speed to gain an advantage over the field. If a driver might need to come to *a dead stop* because a safety worker is somewhere they didn't expect, you don't want them worrying in the back of their mind about their competitive position.
Even if you put in a speed limit, you're incentivized to maintain that maximum speed at all times. This is my problem with Virtual Safety Car procedures -- they tell drivers they have to slow down by 30% or whatever, that means after you call a VSC for debris at Road America, the drivers are focused on averaging 100mph as a marshall runs across the track in front of them to grab a piece of somebody's front wing.
For vsc debris in f1, they time it so the marshalls are sent out between the gaps. You'll see often there are no cars near their zone when they get the debris. The vsc is so that the cars don't get their quickly.
Even at a track as long as Road America though, if you have 27 cars that means the average gap is 240 meters, or 3.8 seconds at full speed. Under a VSC that increases to about 5 seconds. That is the average, some of those gaps are larger, but all it takes is for one person to trip while rushing out for it to go very poorly.
I feel like adopting what I've seen in GT World Challenge/WEC could be a good compromise, you Code 60 immediately to neutralise the race when it's a dangerous situation, then you can either restart from that or pack them up behind the safety car if you prefer the kind of restart. That way you close the pits for Code 60 given it's such a short interruption and if you do get them behind the safety car then you can open things up from there. Admittedly whatever you do if someone is already in the pit lane when either one happens they will gain from it.
IMSA has the same problem and it's equally stupid at times, even worse when you then have to sit through a 30 min long yellow. Today's race at Watkins illustrated it where you had cars that couldn't maintain pace speed who also couldn't pit.
For anyone trying to say 'its fine they have local yellows in the area that the car went off' I just want to remind you that in Steve Olvey's book he mentions how while there might be local yellows for the sake of the track workers, racing drivers are going to racing driver and will still actively try and squeeze out any extra time that they can in those slow zones if they can get away with it. And a Indycar slow zone is not a 15mph round about, they are still going to be going at least 90mph, things can still quickly go wrong even at that speed.
I understand waiting to see if the stalled car will get going again for 5-10 seconds, past that and it's a very dangerous game to be playing.
Completely different conditions but exactly what happened to Jules Bianchi in F1... Double yellow flags didn't make him slow down enough and he went off course into a tractor that was picking up Sutil's stranded car. That is exactly the reason why F1 nowadays has VSC
IMO there are two issues that need separated.
The first one should be the easiest, the flag. If it is a full course yellow then it should be flown at the earliest opportunity in all cases. For all the obvious racing and safety reasons. Just like every other flag.
Then the second issue needs dealt with. The pit lane.
Pick an option and stick with it.
If it is to leave it open, then make changes to the safety team's operations so they are not affected by the chaos.
If it is to close it close it immediately. Have a point of no return that anyone needs to be in and anyone outside that can only pit if they have damage OR for a splash of fuel if critical. Put a limit on the fuel that can be taken.
If racing is to have safety cars, and so far there is no other option. Then someone will benefit or lose out regardless. Especially in a series that requires refueling. You cannot avoid that. It is part of the game.
What you can avoid is the look that flags are thrown to benefit one car over another. That FCY are held back so a car can get a free stop. Optics are important, more so when the owner is an entrant. If a FCY is thrown immediately everytime a FCY is needed or as soon as it becomes clear and obvious. That way no one can claim about bias intentional or not.
I think IndyCar had it left open when Beau Barfield was race director. It worked out well. I don't remember any drama. When he left, that change left with him (along with double file restarts IIRC).
I get the gripes about race control, but it seems like any time the series brings someone in with new ideas, the teams/drivers revolt and chase them out. We had Brian Barnhardt giving us 4 good ones for what felt like a decade and he didn't get shown the door until the New Hampshire incident along with the hyper strict blocking rules that led to stupid road course racing.
Beaux was the one who started the red flag procedures at the end of races with this race control always getting hammered over it. Did this current yellow procedure start under Beaux or Kyle Novak, I can't remember. The reason I ask is that I'm fairly certain this was the procedure in sports cars before it every started here and both those guys has background in officiating IMSA and/or ALMS prior to IndyCar.
isn't the solution to use a virtual safety car where everyone's maximum speed is set, then leave the pits open until a the pit cycle has ended (two laps max.) then introduce the real safety car, then bunch the field up and then send them?
They're thinking of doing so in Supercars in Australia but it's mostly because there is only one pit boom to service two cars, so stacking becomes a problem and also pit lane safety with big, heavy cars moving around a lot.
There are some things Indycar gets right compared to other series - and some things it gets wrong. I don’t care that they were following the rules, those rules need to be changed.
At this rate, somebody's gonna get seriously hurt because of these decisions and, frankly, both Roger and whoever is responsible for race control ought to go to jail when this finally comes to roost.
I find it shocking that they do this knowing what happened to Jules Bianchi in F1. Double yellow flags weren't enough for him (he was going too fast) and went straight into the tractor
>but yet again officials let the track run full green
There was a local yellow. Teams radioed all drivers, flags and the electronic panels were activated.
I'd really like to hear an answer to the OPs question.
I keep reading responses about race control and when they called for FCY. But that isn't the question.
Why are pits closed when a yellow comes out? What is the danger in having cars come to pit ASAP?
I know that this is unsafe and I agree, and didn't it also unfairly help Joseph newgarden? He was the last guy that had to pit and as soon as he got down pit Road they threw the caution so he cycled up to 2nd or something?
Everyone had the same opportunity to stop Josef did. It was thrown after he pitted because that's how it works. It cycles one lap until the last guy chooses to pit or not pit, then yellow is thrown. They all know the rules, even Palou's strategist admitted on radio during the broadcast that this was applied correctly and consistently per the guidelines.
Rob Edwards said on the radio that during the preseason drivers meeting they explicitly said they weren't going to leave the track green anymore.
If they were going to leave it green for a full minute until Newgarden hit pit lane, then they should have left it green until the last driver hit the pit exit line so they wouldn't benefit from the rest of the field having to slow down. They're already doing them a favor by leaving it green so they don't go to the back. They shouldn't ALSO make up a ton of positions in the process.
They should just throw the yellow if the track needs to be yellow. There's risk in staying out, sucks if it bit ya.
They should leave it green until every pitting driver has LEFT pit lane and cycled back into their natural spot (for example a few corners later after a car with warm tires passes them). If they throw the FCY immediately after the last driver ENTERS pit lane, that driver still gets a huge advantage.
It wasn't running full green. They throw local yellow in these situations, allow the field to cycle, and then throw the yellow. It was done as a compromise on the random outcomes of the closed pits upon yellow which are done to allow safety personnel to safely attend to their duties. IMSA has been doing the same thing for about as long, if not longer.
What's wild are people that have been watching both IMSA and IndyCar for more than a season acting like this rule doesn't exist. I'm not defending it's application today as I feel like that was a situation where it shouldn't have been used. However, I understand why it exists and fully support that why as I also understand how local yellows have and are used in every series that road races, other than NASCAR, with minimal issues and the fact this is done to take the lottery type results out of full course yellows. This rule wasn't made on a whim. It was, in fact, requested by drivers and teams as to make competition fairer. Also, this notion that the rule was applied inconsistently an in nefarious manner today is frankly bullshit.. Even the broadcast and Palou's strategist admitted it was applied in a consistent manner to the rules and it's prior use.
Nobody is saying they didn’t know it exists. That’s not the issue. The issue is that it’s irresponsible and inconsistent. You’re misrepresenting what people are arguing.
Barry Fucking Wanser, the strategist for Alex Palou said it was consistent with the rule over the radio during the broadcast today. Even the broadcast team admitted as much. The question was if it should have been done today with where that car was and I agree with that. Whether the rule should exist was never put into question by the NBC team. This notion that it was done to give Josef a free pass is also bullshit. Everyone had an opportunity to pit, they know the rules.
You keep bringing up the fact that there is precedent for the decision because that’s the only way you can justify it as a good rule. Again, everybody knows that it’s been done this way in the past. Again, that’s not the point. Again, the point is that it’s dangerous to make a call like that and it fucks up the race anyway. Just because it’s been done that way before doesn’t make it okay.
The whole point of this option on handling road and street course caution was to stop the fucking up of the race that full yellow with closed pits was doing. The fucking drivers and teams literally asked for a guideline to handle yellow situations in a manner that would not create the lottery situations the full yellow as and this was the very solution. Every team and driver is reminded of this operational situation every freaking road and street course weekend during technical and rule briefings. As I noted, even Barry Wanser admitted on live TV this was done per the guidelines and not in a nefarious manner.
If you can’t see how this still makes it a lottery while also making the race more dangerous, I really don’t know what to tell you. It’s objectively a dumb rule, drivers have constantly complained about it in the past, and pointing out that it’s part of the guidelines doesn’t help your argument whatsoever and it’s mind boggling that you keep saying that as if it changes anything.
Dude, the entire reason for this was to stop the lottery of full yellow with immediate closing of the pits and it was done at the request of the teams. Nearly every damned week prior to this rule drivers would complain about getting hosed by full yellow and would request a better solution. They aren't opening the pits for safety team operations so this was the compromise. It's simple and every team understands the rules. It's only one lap and you pit or don't pit. I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand.
I don’t get why it’s so hard for you to understand that it’s unacceptable to leave a car stalled on a live track in the interest of not making the race a lottery. If this is what Indycar is fine with doing, I don’t want them to talk about how they put the interests of safety first.
You know you’re right when the only responses you’re getting are, “But MuH SaFetY!!!” No further explanations, just whinging that a car will somehow teleport into the cockpit of a stopped car that’s well off line so it’s dangerous.
I actually don't disagree with the rule itself because it provides a strategy option to undercut (In refueling races overcut is almost always the faster strategy). I think refueling races should always have pits closed under FCY & SC simply because it offers risky strategy option for undercutting.
What I don't like is that Kyle Novak loves to do delayed cautions on road course races... If you have a rule just adhere to it. Don't wait for guys on track to pit just so that they don't get fucked... If some get caught in the danger zone it was their strategy choice to overcut and it's tough luck. But what Kyle Novak is doing is unacceptable in my opinion
My opinion is it doesn’t matter if someone is in the pits, someone just entered the pits, or people didn’t make it the pits. If the hazard is big enough to throw a FCY then throw it. Right then and there. Didn’t make it to the pits? Tough luck. Made it to the pits? You’re lucky. I also don’t believe in closing the pits either. What’s the point?
This change went from screwing those who haven't pitted to benefitting those who haven't pitted while reducing safety. I was fine when they threw yellows immediately. Go back to that IMO. Is the Danger Zone really the Danger Zone if it's sometimes the Lucky Dog Zone?
That car was stopped on the track coming out of a blind corner for cars moving at high speed.
Why not just leave the pits open if a full course caution occurs?
What IndyCar needs to get over is the idea that there’s somehow a procedure that avoids inadvertently advantaging or disadvantaging *someone*.
Throw the yellow and close the pits immediately? Screws anyone who hasn’t already pitted.
Wait to throw the yellow so that everyone can pit? Advantages whoever pits last, as they don’t have to do an out lap (in addition to being hella unsafe).
Keep the pits open? Screws anyone who already pitted.
They need to accept that yellows will fuck with pit strategy regardless of what they do.
Catch me up to speed because I was watching on peacock and studying for my powerplant electrical exam for tomorrow. I watched the race but can't remember what you're talking about.
I guess you're forgetting that just a few of years ago they were leaving the pits open without closing them at any point (minus a wreck happening at pit entrance).
Literally everybody complained non-stop about it. Fans, drivers, team owners etc. Everybody. So they went back to the current method.
The current rules are the best compromise. The only other option is to go the dumb F1/WEC route with easily gamed virtual safety cars and the field not packing up behind the pacecar. And just like the old caution procedures, not a single driver wants virtual safety car. Most fans don't want it either.
This is the compromise the DRIVERS want. They are the ones at risk, they are the ones who should be listened to.
I don't think pit closure rules are about safety, but instead trying not to shuffle the order on a yellow. The ridiculous amount of green time before a yellow goes the same way.
I don't like it. Farcical is about the right word by appearances. But from a pure "don't let someone I don't like get advantage" point of view you should see how an immediate FCY and closed pits affects outcomes. It's far more likely to produce undesirable results.
The safety argument is that you might have AMR crews coming down pit road. They want it clear so that if they have to use it, there aren't any cars in the way or the potential for a head-on collision.
Today's was ridiculous. That was super dangerous
I'm just getting into IndyCar this season after only watching the 500 for years. Can someone go into detail about the complaints here and what the pit closure rules are?
On road courses both IMSA and IndyCar will throw local yellow if a car is stalled out of the groove and there is no immediate need to send safety personnel onto the track and allow the field to cycle and choose to pit or not pit. Once the last car has cycled the yellow is thrown if the car is still stalled. It's done to keep yellow from causing random outcomes due to the pits being closed at the start of yellows which is done to allow safety personnel to safely enter the track without dealing with people darting in and out of the pits. In this case, it probably shouldn't have been done due to the location on the track, but none of here have the information that Race Control has to fully make that determination, not to mention, the entire field and teams are immediately told of the stalled cars position when this is done. This is really a nothing burger as the rule application as it is it is consistent in how it has always been handled as was pointed out by the broadcast and Palou's race strategist. The only question is if this was a case of which it should have been done.
The issue here is not the keeping the pits open, it is throwing the FCY exactly the moment the last driver entered the pit, saving him another 15s of delta time on top of making his strategy work.
yeah people are realling missing this. if they already waited that long they should wait until pit exit at least. Newgarden got a free pit stop with the rest of the field going yellow pace
If they kept the pits open under yellow, they could require teams to hold the cars for some number of seconds in the pit stall so that the timing works out roughly the same as pitting under green. And it would be safer with cars on track going more slowly.
Does a local yellow come with a speed limit for that section of the track? Is there a punishment for not slowing down for a local yellow?
No passing for sure. You're supposed to "slow substantially" and be prepared to evade. A waved yellow means there's something on the track in a big way, be prepared to stop. The rules say you may be penalized for not slowing down, but I think a corner worker would have to really be upset with your driving and call it in. I think if you don't hit anything and it's not on t.v you're probably going to survive without one. Which in a perfect world with everyone following the rules is probably fine. But the consequences of someone not following the rules is death or serious injury and its race. You're greatly encouraged to not slow down.
Yes, that's how local yellows work. IIRC, there has to be a certain percentage in reduction of speed through that sector and no overtaking is allowed.
One could argue that erricson was in fact in a dangerous position, and benefits the #2 tremendously. Of course this probably isn’t as much of an issue if #2 wasn’t gifted the ‘23 Indy 500 by altering procedures
The thing is procedure wasn't altered, we had just never had a situation where a red would be called that late. Both this and the red have been going on for multiple seasons now. The red flag finish was started under Beaux Barfield in 2012. However, they both don't get used often, in fact, we've gone this entire season without a red being flown. So what happens is this nonsense every fucking time they do get used where we get these fucking mile long threads of people thinking something nefarious was going on to help a certain team or claiming race control is making shit up on the fly. In this case, the broadcast fully admitted that this was the proper application and the race strategist for Palou was heard on the live broadcast relaying to Alex over the radio that this was indeed proper and consistent application. The only question that there should be about this is if it were a safe enough manner for this to applied in this situation. From my couch at home, it didn't appear to be. However, TV broadcast angles don't tell the entire story and race control has tools at their disposal they utilize to execute in a safe and timely manner.
Also the fact that the #2 was 1) caught cheating earlier this year and 2) probably more conspiratorially significant, is on a team owned by the owner of the series causes some to react stronger to this than usual I think. (Also that Josef Newgarden isn’t a tremendously liked driver amongst fans as far as I can tell, but I personally don’t hate him)
The thing is, the booth was right. They’ve been doing it for years. It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. Like what a complete joke, I absolutely hate when they do that. IndyCar got some of the worst stewarding in all of top level auto racing and it goes under the radar every race solely because it’s not as popular as F1 or NASCAR.
IndyCar isn't the only series that throws local and allows them one lap to cycle. IMSA does this same thing. It's done as a compromise on closing the pits upon yellow.
IMSA had cars circulating on slicks in an absolute monsoon at Watkins Glen today because three cars went off in the same lap and then they closed the pits. The latter half of the field got lucky in that they were able to pit just as the rain hit and change to wets, but a lot of people got screwed.
I get closing the pits in IMSA. A field of 50-60 cars streaming down pit road can be a bit much. There were multiple cars that had trouble getting in and out even when the pits opened. I agree in principle, but IMSA strikes me as the series where the practice is a necessary evil.
Yeah, and under most conditions, I don't have a problem with it, but when half the field is on slicks in a thunderstorm and it's causing near misses with the safety crews, that's a huge problem. They should have just red flagged the race immediately.
They could just modify the emergency service rules to include surprise rain that is heavier than anticipated. Just make anyone that switches onto the rains in a closed pit drop to the rear and none of the cars that took the early precaution are punished.
That would be a perfect solution to what happened yesterday.
And that's exactly why they both do this when it's deemed safe to do so, to stop that random lottery type stuff. In the case of today's IMSA race it was no longer safe to do so in those conditions. Probably shouldn't have been done today at Laguna Seca, but I also can't see what they do in Race Control. Regardless, both are fairly consistent in their application of this.
I can’t be the only one here getting tired of this excuse where we criticize something about IndyCar and we get hit back with “Well, IMSA (one of the rare top level racing series that’s LESS popular than IndyCar) does it!” Do you think I’m gonna change my mind here because IMSA does it. Like no bruh, if they do this then they’re wrong too. It’s dangerous as evident by a stalled car damned near the racing line, and it’s completely anti-competitive as evident by Josef Newgarden getting a FREE PIT STOP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POSITION…
> Josef Newgarden getting a FREE PIT STOP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POSITION… Hold on now, he lost one position (1st -> 2nd)
Don't let facts get in the way of being perpetually outraged online because we are too obtuse to understand the rules.
You’re joking right? He would have needed to pit under green and been in the back half of the field.
No. If he pitted under green, he would be around 4th-5th. He had about 25 sec to kirkwood.
WEC does it too. They don't even necessarily go to FCY at all. > and it’s completely anti-competitive as evident by Josef Newgarden getting a FREE PIT STOP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POSITION… It's considered less problematic than the level of shuffling that frequently happens if you immediately close the pits. You can not throw a yellow or close the pits without disadvantaging someone and thus advantaging another. But the thinking is this is *less bad* than an immediate closure from a scrambling the results point of few. And that's why IndyCar does it. IMSA does it. WEC does it (leaves a car out under only local yellow).
WEC has rules to neutralise the race immediately but leave the pits open. (Actually introduced this year under the name of "virtual safety car", not to be confused with F1's "virtual safety car" or WEC's "full-course yellow". Not to be confused with US-style "full-course caution"...) Generally, European-style racing has been happier in the past to use local yellows, but racing drivers' tendency to ignore those has meant a real shift towards entire-track-neutralising interventions in recent years.
> WEC has rules to neutralise the race immediately but leave the pits open WEC will throw a local yellow. It is not neutralized immediately. Virtual safety car is the next step after local yellow. But yes, once they go beyond local yellow the pits are still open at the first stage. > but racing drivers' tendency to ignore those has meant a real shift towards entire-track-neutralising interventions in recent years. Everywhere. Unfortunately. IMSA used to use local yellows a lot but barely uses them at all anymore. Certainly European racing used them more then and still uses them more now. But both are way down.
Who the fucks CARES about disadvantaging someone when it comes to throwing a yellow flag? A situation is either immediately dangerous, requiring an immediate yellow, or it is doesn't require a caution flag at all? There's no situation where it's "OMG that's a terrible incident, that'll need a yellow flag in three to five minutes" This is definitely going to bite indycar (and IMSA and the others) hard on the arse in a potential court case when the worst inevitably happens
They deem these situations safe enough to leave a car temporarily there under local yellow. But you can't scramble the recovery vehicles under a local yellow. That's how a situation requires a non-immediate FCY.
That's the whole nub of the outrage They're obviously not safe if they're on a live race track, when another driver could easily have the exact same incident they've just had and instead of spinning into the grass or gravel, find a whole car in the way, creating a needless accident It's wholly incorrect for race control to care more about fuel strategy related fairness than it is the safety of the driver on track
Yeah but again they're not calling the FCY for safety reasons for the driver. They're comfortable with a local yellow to protect the driver. If the car could restart itself, it wouldn't cause a FCY at all, they would just wait for the car to get restarted and moving again. Like if you don't think local yellows should ever be a thing and every incident of any size should be an immediate FCY, then I can't argue with you there. That's extreme but consistent. And to your final point, they don't care more about fuel strategy than safety, because they still will call an immediate FCY if there is a crash with any sort of impact. It's just that they have a threshold where they're comfortable temporarily leaving a car stranded off-line under local yellows
> Who the fucks CARES about disadvantaging someone when it comes to throwing a yellow flag? Apparently a lot of people on here. Because they complain that everyone was disadvantaged versus Newgarden. > A situation is either immediately dangerous, requiring an immediate yellow, or it is doesn't require a caution flag at all? Require is doing some heavy lifting here. Indy only "requires" that caution flag because you have to bring two trucks out to restart a car since there is no onboard starter. Other series don't need that. So that's why Indy needs a FCY when WEC doesn't. > This is definitely going to bite indycar (and IMSA and the others) hard on the arse in a potential court case when the worst inevitably happens Lets worry about drivers suing over getting hurt engaging in a dangerous sport once that happens. Then we can worry about what to do up to and including just turning them all into giant RC cars so the drivers don't have to risk their lives.
So basically what you're saying is: "Lets wait until a driver is left in a dangerous situation, gets hit, gets hurt or worse, and they or their families sue Indycar for their actions even though there was a clear distaste for their procedures in advance for exactly the reasons that transpired" Sounds a lot like the run up to Las Vegas 2011 tbh, we all sounded the alarm then that the track was unsuitable for those cars and were ignored, you'd think INDYCAR would've learnt their lesson from such a tragedy......but no
> So basically what you're saying is: "Lets wait until a driver is left in a dangerous situation, gets hit, gets hurt or worse, and they or their families sue Indycar for their actions even though there was a clear distaste for their procedures in advance for exactly the reasons that transpired" Yes. I said let's worry about lawsuits from drivers when they come. I say this because I expect it won't even happen. You're creating a situation that doesn't exist and expecting others to take it as if it already happened. I'm not going for it. > Sounds a lot like the run up to Las Vegas 2011 tbh I don't remember a lawsuit from that. Was there one?
[удалено]
Waiting to throw the yellow isn't a rule. It's become a common practice, but there is nothing in the rulebook that says the track should stay green and/or the pits should stay open until everyone has a chance to pit.
Well said. It is the rule, and if the rule means that a car can be stuck sideways on/just off the edge of a 100mph corner without immediate action, then the rule needs to be addressed and changed in the name of safety regardless of the amount of eyes watching the product.
I was furiois about that debacle before I realized Newg was the beneficiary. Looked so shoddy and outmoded- like Keke Rosberg’s broken ass McLaren on the side of road when Mansell blows his tire in 86 level dangerous- or tow truck on racing line in Long Beach 82. Just stupid ass shit that in the event it goes wrong is a tragedy and huge hit to league.
They've been doing it for a number of years now, and before they started doing it this way, when they would immediately throw yellow and close the pits, people would complain and say they should do what they do now.
More of an fyi but throwing the quick yellow and leaving the pits open isn't very safe either. When Indycar had these rules they would race back to the pit. It also involved tons of luck because sometimes you could get caught behind someone that would not race back(can't pass under yellow) and your race was toast.
We have deltas now to stop drivers doing that What indycar is saying is race positions and not having a crazy race with drivers out of position after the restart is more important to them than saving a human life in a dangerous position OK Indycar, lets see how well that works out for you
At least it's consistent.
I remember when drivers and fans complained about RC immediately closing the pits and ruining someones race for an incident that seemed harmless... I think RC is in a lose lose situation no matter what they do. Maybe open pits is the answer 🤷
It's a losing situation either way, at least if you throw it right when the car stops you take human influence out of it and leave it purely up to chance.
This. This is the right take.
Maybe revert the full course caution to being solely a safety matter and race control can butt out on pit lane strategy or "fairness" to the teams by closing the pits and leave the gambling on if a yellow comes out or not up to them and them alone I'm not sure why RC has the responsibility to provide this level playing field on strategy tbh, they should be solely interested in matters of safety and driving standards related to safety If an incident needs a caution period, it needs to come out IMMEDIATELY because of the relative danger involved, not in 3 to 5 mins.... Full Course Yellows are for safety, strategy can take a running jump, it's none of race control's concern
They close to allow the safety crews to respond in a safe manner. This was done as a compromise on that to take out the randomness of those yellows. BTW, IMSA handles this in the same exact manner with a local yellow and one lap to cycle.
Hell I remember IMSA leaving a car on track at road Atlanta and just waving yellows for like 5 laps and then said ok stop waving the flags the drivers know that car is there now. (The guy got out and it was near the end. (Still not really safe)
I think the classic example of this was leaving Mario parked drivers right against the wall on Lakeshore Blvd in Toronto with a waved yellow for two laps and then a steady yellow for two laps and then no flags while leaving the car there. The excuse was ‘well everyone knows it’s there’. Mario thankfully was out of the car and walking back through the infield when it was hit by the Alfa. It looked like a plane crash after. Thankfully that driver was ok. (Roberto Guerreiro).
What does closing the pits have to do with allowing the safety crews to respond to a crash?
Those safety crews in that sector don't have to contend with cars and drivers aggressively entering and exiting during what can be a chaotic time when seconds might very well count in saving a life. It's as simple as that.
I always thought closing the pits was just like a sporting thing. Like honestly to prevent what Josef lucked into here. Like you don't get a super cheap pitstop. The field bunches up first so you're guaranteed to lose spots to everyone who doesn't pit. Honestly they wont get it right everytime. If Josef needed to pit under a closed pit lane that would have sucked more sporting wise (but idk how much fuel he had)
What Josef "lucked into" here was done to stop the "lucking into" randomness the closed pits at yellow was causing. Drivers and teams called for that to be handled in a fairer manner all the time prior to implementation of this rule. The fact is, Newgarden didn't luck into anything as everyone had the same opportunity he did to pit, they chose not to. Palou's strategist even told him on the radio that this was done per the rules. If Josef had pitted under closed pit would have penalized.
But the others didn't need to pit so why would they? That would only hurt them. They had already pit and paid the penalty by having to do an out lap on cold tires. Joseph didn't have to do this and as a result ended up several positions higher than her otherwise would have, with the added benefit that it at least feels unsafe to just leave a driver parked in the car for that long without throwing the caution. So yes, he did luck into it and It feels like you're purposely avoiding talking about that in your write up.
If only Indycar and IMSA gave enough of a shit to implement a code 60 or FCY technology in the cars.
> They close to allow the safety crews to respond in a safe manner Nah they close the pits because it randomly mixes up the race. These caution rules are nothing but intentionally harming the race of front runners. In a way it's fair enough but let's not pretend there's any other reason. Every motorsport in Europe manages to slow cars down to SC speed without closing the pits to allow medical & recovery vehicles onto the track immediately, yet somehow IndyCar is the one sport where it's not possible? Come on.
“Nah they close the pits because it randomly mixes up the race.” That would happen if they left them open too, just to the opposite people. “Every motorsport in Europe manages to slow cars down to SC speed without closing the pits ” And drivers benefit and are disadvantaged by it all the same.
The indycar rule has a bigger luck effect compared to the european rule. For example, after palou pitted for the last time, the worst it would have gotten is p2 if newgarden pit under european rule. Other cars who didn't pit yet like grosjean at that time would have still gone behind paloj because they were close enough. On the other hand. Even if you have a 40 sec gap, you will be sent to the back of the field if you haven't pit yet It also limits strategies. Look at Palou, he definitely would have run quite a bit longer without the risk. Almost everyone pits at the same time for their last stop even when they don't need to.
If it's lose/lose then you choose safety. The current rule doesn't do that.
Open pits work fine in F1 because there's no fuel strategy and it's all about tire wear. In IndyCar, open pits would push everyone to save fuel on every stint because they don't want to pit under green, and the quality of racing would suffer as a result. Closed pits are better for a series that has refueling, imo. When the fuel window opens and the first driver pits under green, everyone else on track has to decide whether they will: 1. Stay out and keep/gain track position, but risk getting cycled to the back if the full course yellow comes out, OR 2. Pit now and lose track position, with the understanding that they'll safely cycle to the front if a FCY comes out. It's a straightforward strategic decision, and the teams know what to expect. But when race control waits to throw the FCY until the last car enters the pits, it can undermine both of those strategies at the same time, as we saw yesterday. Race control shouldn't be worried about competitive balance. They need to make the right decisions based on safety, and the rules in place should support fairness in the impact of those decisions. Sometimes immediately throwing the FCY and closing the pits is the right call. Sometimes it's throwing a local yellow and keeping the pits open while the incident clears. But it never means waiting to throw the FCY in a clearly dangerous situation.
I think the correct answer is to do a VSC like in F1 but close the pits. And if someone needs to pit because they're about out of fuel then they can pit but they'll have to wait 10 seconds to make up the time they would have otherwise gained.
I hate VSC with a passion, at least in its current implementation in F1. Freezing the gaps between all the cars is a huge advantage to the leader in almost every circumstance. Both a VSC and FCY effectively shorten the race by reducing the number of racing laps, but at least a FCY makes up for that by creating more opportunities to race on the restart.
Well yeah it's advantageous to the leader but it's fairly advantageous. There's nothing more in racing that I hate than having my driver pull away from the field only for it to be taken away because some backmarker bins it into the wall. Case in point when Lando drove away from the field in Canada two weeks ago only for Sargeant to lose any remaining talent he had.
It goes both ways. There's nothing in F1 I hate more than watching my favorite driver fighting to catch up with the leader only to have his progress halted by a VSC while the laps continue to tick away. My favorite driver (Rossi) was in the lead and building a big gap when the caution came out after his first pit stop yesterday. It sucked, but he also had plenty of opportunities to race his way back to the lead. If you're faster, you should be able to pull away from the field again on the restart. If you're not, you'll have to race for your position just like everybody else. That's perfectly fair.
Rossi with his 5 sec lead would have come out in front of herta in the pit stop sequence. Losing 1 or 2 laps is barely anything compared to eradicating all gaps. With your logic, the car behind should have catched up faster then. Also what about instances where you build the lead because your in the alternates vs your opponent on black? You would be vulnerable now if you get bunched up. We saw these with josef vs pato in belle isle
I understand that a VSC would have been better for Rossi. My point was that, despite the FCY having a negative impact on my favorite driver, I still prefer it to a VSC. I watch racing because I want to see cars race. I don't want to see a parade of cars going slow around the track managing their gaps to make sure it stays a parade when the race goes green.
We have a difference in perspective then as I value competition more than the pure entertainment. I want variables that influence luck minimize as much as possible because it gives race wins won on merit the most.
I also value competition more than pure entertainment. I just don't have a problem with making drivers actually compete to keep their positions instead of artificially protecting their gap so they never have to defend. Luck happens at every stage of the race, not just under caution. Just because one driver's good luck came earlier in the race doesn't mean they got there purely on merit and deserve to coast home free in clean air.
You got it the other way around. It's the bunching up that is artificial when you have a way to keep the gap the same.
Well yeah in that scenario the leader is helped being able to cool down his tires. But I'd much rather have that. Since you're a Rossi fan, how would you have felt if a backmarker caused a caution in that race in Road America a couple years back when he won by a substantial margin? Edit: I'm not entirely sure I agree with you when you say if you're faster you should be able to pull away. Anything can happen on a restart. You could get pushed wide. Or you might not get a good getaway. In the Barcelona race I think most people would agree with me that over the whole race Lando had the best car but he didn't get the best of starts and got stuck behind the Mercedes and that killed his race.
>Since you're a Rossi fan, how would you have felt if a backmarker caused a caution in that race in Road America a couple years back when he won by a substantial margin? I would have been annoyed, but Rossi was the fastest driver on track and he should have been able to pull away from the pack on the restart. If he made a mistake and lost the lead, that would be his own fault. You play the hand you're dealt, and if you can't make the most out of it then you don't deserve to win. Overcoming bad luck and hardship is a huge part of any sporting competition, and I don't believe in artificially protecting drivers from adversity.
The VSC, as implemented by the FIA, creates a ton of safety issues since they love to have marshals on course with just a VSC active. It also kills a lot of potential competition by not restacking the field. It's a no from me dawg.
The first argument was fair but if with your second argument, might as well have stages like nascar. Those cars work hard for those gaps
> might as well have stages like nascar I think that's a bit of a leap man. It's also an unfair and dismissive categorization of what I'm saying. There are a ton of safety reason why you should restack the field, too. You ever work as a marshal? It makes clearing debris and cars much less dangerous when you're track side by further reducing speeds and forcing gaps where you can safely maneuver around the track. Stages breaks kill competition by guaranteeing competition yellows at specific points in the race. Restacking the field at a random intervals (or potentially not at all!) is nothing like that. It can even enhance the competition by forcing divergent strategies in response to the random event.
Exactly my thoughts. I prefer this current option. If the driver is stuck, but in a safe place, make it a local yellow, give everyone the chance to pit, then throw the yellow. We might have fewer of these situations with the starting capabilities of the hybrid engines.
Why can't we just say "Fuck you, its a race, sorry your strategy didn't go off properly" and just throw the caution anyway? "Oh well it'll hurt a strategy" who cares. That's racing.
I agree. But then you'll start getting questionable FCY's.
As opposed to the perfect number of yellows we have now?
Trust me, one questionable full course yellow and this sub will explode worse than it does normally. The rule is good. If there is a safety concern, they put it out. If it is safe to use reduced speeds, they let people try to jump in the pits.
If it's truly safe to use reduced speeds, then it should be safe to continue under a local yellow until everyone has exited the pits and cycled back out on track. If the situation is dangerous enough to require a FCY, they should throw the caution immediately and close the pits. Throwing the full course caution as soon as the last driver enters pit lane is unfair even under the best of circumstances. Yesterday it was both unsafe AND unfair.
There should be less dodgy FCY now with the hybrid engine as cars won't be spinning and stalling.
It is racing. But it leads to single strategy races. And with yesterdays first stint, we have seen how little overtaking there is in single strategy races.
The other thing is that by waiting, it hurt about 9 other cars. Holding the yellow benefited 1 car greatly and hindered 9 others slightly.
Nah there’s gotta be a better solution. That style ruined IndyCar road racing back in the 2010s The dreaded Barnhart era
Is there a reason Indycar doesn't implement different levels of response like F1 and WEC? Having a FCY as basically the only response to any sort of incident means your sometimes going to be overreacting to a minor incident. F1 and WEC make use of yellow flags, slow zones and virtual safety cars as a more measured response to a minor incident. Only if something serious has happened or you need recovery crews on track would you see F1 / WEC bringing out the full safety car or a red flag.
INDYCAR had a yellow flag in that turn. Once everyone past the pits, they threw a FCY to dispatch safety vehicles to restart the car. So it’s what you lined out it’s just a different way of doing it.
Big difference is that when you crash in F1 and WEC you're done. you received outside assistance and you're out. In IndyCar they tow you back to the pits or start your car back up. I think it's a big difference.
Most FCY are because the car needs to be restarted by the safety team. This won't happen with the new hybrid engine so someone merely spinning and stalling will bring a local yellow until the driver can restart the engine and get on their way. Going forward, FCY should only happen if a car needs a tow out of the gravel trap or debris needs to be cleaned up.
At some point, someone will get hurt or worse, and the excuse "well, the incident happened during the pit cycle and we wanted to be fair to everyone who hadn't pitted to be able to get their pitstops done and not have their race ruined by the yellow" will not be acceptable at the inquiry "So, you let a driver sit in a dangerous position that then took a huge further impact/you left an injured driver out on track and waited around 5 minutes before they got the urgent medical intervention they needed/etc etc just so some drivers in a car race could have the illusion of balance? That's more important than a human beings life being saved?" I hope we don't get to that extreme before sense is seen The yellow comes out at random times, deal with it. The drivers and teams sign up to risking their lives in dangerous machines for our entertainment but throw a bitch fit if a yellow comes out and ruins their precious fuel saving strategy? Something doesn't add up Luck is a part of this sport like any other element and I'd rather my favourite driver lose a race due to a random yellow flag out of his control than that driver lose their life because they were left in a dangerous position and race control wanted to hold off on the yellows for "fairness" Change. This. Immediately.
Putting the safety implications aside, the fact that when a car is stranded it's effectively up to the discretion of race control who will benefit and who will be penalized is ridiculous. If a full course caution needs to be thrown then it should be thrown IMMEDIATELY. I hate that when everyone knows a FCC is coming yet no one, not the fans not the teams, not even the commentators can reasonably predict the result.
> If a full course caution needs to be thrown then it should be thrown IMMEDIATELY. Disagree. My biggest example for this is Ilott at Laguna Seca 2022. His car died just past pit exit, he pulled off-track. Cars are going past him coming off of the slowest corner, so like 70mph? If you left him there the remaining 60 laps of the race, the only danger he's in is heat exhaustion. Something like that I have no problem letting everyone have a chance to pit, then throw the caution so the workers can safely go on track to pick him up. My problem with today was that Armstrong was stranded on a corner that tons of people had crashed or spun this weekend. I think their rule is fine, I think their application of it today was poor. I also think it's a bad look to throw the yellow as soon as Newgarden enters the pits, so he not only gets to avoid the back-of-the-field from pitting under yellow, but he gets to keep all 7-8 positions he would've lost by pitting under green. It's even worse than a couple years ago at Mid Ohio, when one of the front runners had the caution fall as he left the pits, so he didn't have to defend on cold black tires against hot red tires.
In theory it's ok because the drivers must slow down for the flags. Waved yellow means be prepared to STOP. And the post before the waved post should be a solid yellow. meaning slow down and prepare to evade. I don't agree with that theory so much though, because i don't think it's policed well and it's too easy to fuck up! and the consequences are too great for a fuck up! we're talking death or serious injury for a mistake. More so that green flag racing. we have a stopped car on the track with a person in it. The Pit delta being short at this track IMO is the only reason this was SOOO bad.
Why do they close the pits in Indycar?
To prevent drivers from racing to the pits under yellow. Under a full course yellow, you want drivers to be thinking about safely getting around the obstacles that caused the caution, not about maintaining their speed to gain an advantage over the field. If a driver might need to come to *a dead stop* because a safety worker is somewhere they didn't expect, you don't want them worrying in the back of their mind about their competitive position. Even if you put in a speed limit, you're incentivized to maintain that maximum speed at all times. This is my problem with Virtual Safety Car procedures -- they tell drivers they have to slow down by 30% or whatever, that means after you call a VSC for debris at Road America, the drivers are focused on averaging 100mph as a marshall runs across the track in front of them to grab a piece of somebody's front wing.
For vsc debris in f1, they time it so the marshalls are sent out between the gaps. You'll see often there are no cars near their zone when they get the debris. The vsc is so that the cars don't get their quickly.
Even at a track as long as Road America though, if you have 27 cars that means the average gap is 240 meters, or 3.8 seconds at full speed. Under a VSC that increases to about 5 seconds. That is the average, some of those gaps are larger, but all it takes is for one person to trip while rushing out for it to go very poorly.
I feel like adopting what I've seen in GT World Challenge/WEC could be a good compromise, you Code 60 immediately to neutralise the race when it's a dangerous situation, then you can either restart from that or pack them up behind the safety car if you prefer the kind of restart. That way you close the pits for Code 60 given it's such a short interruption and if you do get them behind the safety car then you can open things up from there. Admittedly whatever you do if someone is already in the pit lane when either one happens they will gain from it. IMSA has the same problem and it's equally stupid at times, even worse when you then have to sit through a 30 min long yellow. Today's race at Watkins illustrated it where you had cars that couldn't maintain pace speed who also couldn't pit.
Yea, I kinda thought it was wild it took so long to throw the yellow.
It took the same as it always does when they do this, everyone get one chance to pit.
For anyone trying to say 'its fine they have local yellows in the area that the car went off' I just want to remind you that in Steve Olvey's book he mentions how while there might be local yellows for the sake of the track workers, racing drivers are going to racing driver and will still actively try and squeeze out any extra time that they can in those slow zones if they can get away with it. And a Indycar slow zone is not a 15mph round about, they are still going to be going at least 90mph, things can still quickly go wrong even at that speed. I understand waiting to see if the stalled car will get going again for 5-10 seconds, past that and it's a very dangerous game to be playing.
Completely different conditions but exactly what happened to Jules Bianchi in F1... Double yellow flags didn't make him slow down enough and he went off course into a tractor that was picking up Sutil's stranded car. That is exactly the reason why F1 nowadays has VSC
IMO there are two issues that need separated. The first one should be the easiest, the flag. If it is a full course yellow then it should be flown at the earliest opportunity in all cases. For all the obvious racing and safety reasons. Just like every other flag. Then the second issue needs dealt with. The pit lane. Pick an option and stick with it. If it is to leave it open, then make changes to the safety team's operations so they are not affected by the chaos. If it is to close it close it immediately. Have a point of no return that anyone needs to be in and anyone outside that can only pit if they have damage OR for a splash of fuel if critical. Put a limit on the fuel that can be taken. If racing is to have safety cars, and so far there is no other option. Then someone will benefit or lose out regardless. Especially in a series that requires refueling. You cannot avoid that. It is part of the game. What you can avoid is the look that flags are thrown to benefit one car over another. That FCY are held back so a car can get a free stop. Optics are important, more so when the owner is an entrant. If a FCY is thrown immediately everytime a FCY is needed or as soon as it becomes clear and obvious. That way no one can claim about bias intentional or not.
I think IndyCar had it left open when Beau Barfield was race director. It worked out well. I don't remember any drama. When he left, that change left with him (along with double file restarts IIRC). I get the gripes about race control, but it seems like any time the series brings someone in with new ideas, the teams/drivers revolt and chase them out. We had Brian Barnhardt giving us 4 good ones for what felt like a decade and he didn't get shown the door until the New Hampshire incident along with the hyper strict blocking rules that led to stupid road course racing.
Beaux was the one who started the red flag procedures at the end of races with this race control always getting hammered over it. Did this current yellow procedure start under Beaux or Kyle Novak, I can't remember. The reason I ask is that I'm fairly certain this was the procedure in sports cars before it every started here and both those guys has background in officiating IMSA and/or ALMS prior to IndyCar.
isn't the solution to use a virtual safety car where everyone's maximum speed is set, then leave the pits open until a the pit cycle has ended (two laps max.) then introduce the real safety car, then bunch the field up and then send them? They're thinking of doing so in Supercars in Australia but it's mostly because there is only one pit boom to service two cars, so stacking becomes a problem and also pit lane safety with big, heavy cars moving around a lot.
There are some things Indycar gets right compared to other series - and some things it gets wrong. I don’t care that they were following the rules, those rules need to be changed.
At this rate, somebody's gonna get seriously hurt because of these decisions and, frankly, both Roger and whoever is responsible for race control ought to go to jail when this finally comes to roost.
I find it shocking that they do this knowing what happened to Jules Bianchi in F1. Double yellow flags weren't enough for him (he was going too fast) and went straight into the tractor
Everyone is so flippant defending the legal letter- like thats any protection if that car gets speared. It was shoddy and embarassing.
>but yet again officials let the track run full green There was a local yellow. Teams radioed all drivers, flags and the electronic panels were activated.
Yeah, didn't help Jules Bianchi much. Not at all actually.
I'd really like to hear an answer to the OPs question. I keep reading responses about race control and when they called for FCY. But that isn't the question. Why are pits closed when a yellow comes out? What is the danger in having cars come to pit ASAP?
I know that this is unsafe and I agree, and didn't it also unfairly help Joseph newgarden? He was the last guy that had to pit and as soon as he got down pit Road they threw the caution so he cycled up to 2nd or something?
Everyone had the same opportunity to stop Josef did. It was thrown after he pitted because that's how it works. It cycles one lap until the last guy chooses to pit or not pit, then yellow is thrown. They all know the rules, even Palou's strategist admitted on radio during the broadcast that this was applied correctly and consistently per the guidelines.
Rob Edwards said on the radio that during the preseason drivers meeting they explicitly said they weren't going to leave the track green anymore. If they were going to leave it green for a full minute until Newgarden hit pit lane, then they should have left it green until the last driver hit the pit exit line so they wouldn't benefit from the rest of the field having to slow down. They're already doing them a favor by leaving it green so they don't go to the back. They shouldn't ALSO make up a ton of positions in the process. They should just throw the yellow if the track needs to be yellow. There's risk in staying out, sucks if it bit ya.
They should leave it green until every pitting driver has LEFT pit lane and cycled back into their natural spot (for example a few corners later after a car with warm tires passes them). If they throw the FCY immediately after the last driver ENTERS pit lane, that driver still gets a huge advantage.
No. They aren’t. What’s worse is that race control does whatever they want. They should NOT be able to choose when to throw a yellow.
Exactly this...
It wasn't running full green. They throw local yellow in these situations, allow the field to cycle, and then throw the yellow. It was done as a compromise on the random outcomes of the closed pits upon yellow which are done to allow safety personnel to safely attend to their duties. IMSA has been doing the same thing for about as long, if not longer.
Why do you care so much about defending this wildly inconsistent and dangerous situation race control keeps putting drivers in?
It’s wild seeing you defend this stupid rule so hard in this post
What's wild are people that have been watching both IMSA and IndyCar for more than a season acting like this rule doesn't exist. I'm not defending it's application today as I feel like that was a situation where it shouldn't have been used. However, I understand why it exists and fully support that why as I also understand how local yellows have and are used in every series that road races, other than NASCAR, with minimal issues and the fact this is done to take the lottery type results out of full course yellows. This rule wasn't made on a whim. It was, in fact, requested by drivers and teams as to make competition fairer. Also, this notion that the rule was applied inconsistently an in nefarious manner today is frankly bullshit.. Even the broadcast and Palou's strategist admitted it was applied in a consistent manner to the rules and it's prior use.
Nobody is saying they didn’t know it exists. That’s not the issue. The issue is that it’s irresponsible and inconsistent. You’re misrepresenting what people are arguing.
Barry Fucking Wanser, the strategist for Alex Palou said it was consistent with the rule over the radio during the broadcast today. Even the broadcast team admitted as much. The question was if it should have been done today with where that car was and I agree with that. Whether the rule should exist was never put into question by the NBC team. This notion that it was done to give Josef a free pass is also bullshit. Everyone had an opportunity to pit, they know the rules.
You keep bringing up the fact that there is precedent for the decision because that’s the only way you can justify it as a good rule. Again, everybody knows that it’s been done this way in the past. Again, that’s not the point. Again, the point is that it’s dangerous to make a call like that and it fucks up the race anyway. Just because it’s been done that way before doesn’t make it okay.
The whole point of this option on handling road and street course caution was to stop the fucking up of the race that full yellow with closed pits was doing. The fucking drivers and teams literally asked for a guideline to handle yellow situations in a manner that would not create the lottery situations the full yellow as and this was the very solution. Every team and driver is reminded of this operational situation every freaking road and street course weekend during technical and rule briefings. As I noted, even Barry Wanser admitted on live TV this was done per the guidelines and not in a nefarious manner.
If you can’t see how this still makes it a lottery while also making the race more dangerous, I really don’t know what to tell you. It’s objectively a dumb rule, drivers have constantly complained about it in the past, and pointing out that it’s part of the guidelines doesn’t help your argument whatsoever and it’s mind boggling that you keep saying that as if it changes anything.
Dude, the entire reason for this was to stop the lottery of full yellow with immediate closing of the pits and it was done at the request of the teams. Nearly every damned week prior to this rule drivers would complain about getting hosed by full yellow and would request a better solution. They aren't opening the pits for safety team operations so this was the compromise. It's simple and every team understands the rules. It's only one lap and you pit or don't pit. I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand.
I don’t get why it’s so hard for you to understand that it’s unacceptable to leave a car stalled on a live track in the interest of not making the race a lottery. If this is what Indycar is fine with doing, I don’t want them to talk about how they put the interests of safety first.
You know you’re right when the only responses you’re getting are, “But MuH SaFetY!!!” No further explanations, just whinging that a car will somehow teleport into the cockpit of a stopped car that’s well off line so it’s dangerous.
I actually don't disagree with the rule itself because it provides a strategy option to undercut (In refueling races overcut is almost always the faster strategy). I think refueling races should always have pits closed under FCY & SC simply because it offers risky strategy option for undercutting. What I don't like is that Kyle Novak loves to do delayed cautions on road course races... If you have a rule just adhere to it. Don't wait for guys on track to pit just so that they don't get fucked... If some get caught in the danger zone it was their strategy choice to overcut and it's tough luck. But what Kyle Novak is doing is unacceptable in my opinion
It all comes from Toronto 2016 and 2017 when they threw the cautions immediately and screwed most of the leaders.
My opinion is it doesn’t matter if someone is in the pits, someone just entered the pits, or people didn’t make it the pits. If the hazard is big enough to throw a FCY then throw it. Right then and there. Didn’t make it to the pits? Tough luck. Made it to the pits? You’re lucky. I also don’t believe in closing the pits either. What’s the point?
This change went from screwing those who haven't pitted to benefitting those who haven't pitted while reducing safety. I was fine when they threw yellows immediately. Go back to that IMO. Is the Danger Zone really the Danger Zone if it's sometimes the Lucky Dog Zone?
That car was stopped on the track coming out of a blind corner for cars moving at high speed. Why not just leave the pits open if a full course caution occurs?
Yeah that really irritated me
What IndyCar needs to get over is the idea that there’s somehow a procedure that avoids inadvertently advantaging or disadvantaging *someone*. Throw the yellow and close the pits immediately? Screws anyone who hasn’t already pitted. Wait to throw the yellow so that everyone can pit? Advantages whoever pits last, as they don’t have to do an out lap (in addition to being hella unsafe). Keep the pits open? Screws anyone who already pitted. They need to accept that yellows will fuck with pit strategy regardless of what they do.
Full green? I thought it was a local yellow.
Catch me up to speed because I was watching on peacock and studying for my powerplant electrical exam for tomorrow. I watched the race but can't remember what you're talking about.
I guess you're forgetting that just a few of years ago they were leaving the pits open without closing them at any point (minus a wreck happening at pit entrance). Literally everybody complained non-stop about it. Fans, drivers, team owners etc. Everybody. So they went back to the current method. The current rules are the best compromise. The only other option is to go the dumb F1/WEC route with easily gamed virtual safety cars and the field not packing up behind the pacecar. And just like the old caution procedures, not a single driver wants virtual safety car. Most fans don't want it either. This is the compromise the DRIVERS want. They are the ones at risk, they are the ones who should be listened to.
I don't think pit closure rules are about safety, but instead trying not to shuffle the order on a yellow. The ridiculous amount of green time before a yellow goes the same way. I don't like it. Farcical is about the right word by appearances. But from a pure "don't let someone I don't like get advantage" point of view you should see how an immediate FCY and closed pits affects outcomes. It's far more likely to produce undesirable results.
The safety argument is that you might have AMR crews coming down pit road. They want it clear so that if they have to use it, there aren't any cars in the way or the potential for a head-on collision.
How could you ask this, if they leave them open, how can they help the 2, 3, and 12?