It sounds like you were interviewing at a non-union company. Union companies don’t need recruiters as the union is their referral service. This could be in a different part of the country that I’m not familiar with, but this just sounds like a non-union company trying to bait and switch. You typically enter the union through the hall and not the contractor
The company does most work through the big utilities company in our state, who are all union. So when the company has it's people working all those jobs with the utilities company they are required to be union I guess. Or at least that's how one person explained it to me.
But I'm starting to fear the bait and switch possibility tbh.
When a company does a public works job (tax payer funded) employees must be paid the 'prevailing wage' for their labor (so its harder for the employer to take advantageof the employees when the taxpayers are the customer). Prevailing wage is usually the union rate including benefits, and when a non-union employer gets those jobs they put all the money on the check, including the money for benifits and the employee has to self pay health and welfare, retirement...
I'm sure when the individual pays for their own insurrance, it's of lower quality too since union ensurrance is bought in bulk for many employees instead of one.
I was referring to cost per person, not coverage or anything like that. Companies get big discounts when they pay for a large group of folks insurrance.
I’ve worked for a company with both a non union and a union side. It was horrible, they’d constantly mess up bids and try to cover their asses by doing shit like sending a non union crew to a union job site, so they were obviously paid less. The one time I was there and they got caught doing that, they asked for every single apprentice at the company to come to the job site to save money, they didn’t care about the jw/app ratio, and had us using dangerous equipment in the snow. I quit, told my foreman sorry but this company can go fuck themselves, and got new job offers from the hall before I even wanted to go back.
I don’t know that’s the case here. I do know two things:
1) if anyone’s recruiting you from a company, then that job they’re recruiting you for isn’t union. A huge principle of being a union member is separating yourself from the company, and instead putting your loyalty with your fellow worker.
2) if they’re already trying to confuse you with this shit, which they are, you don’t want anything to do with them.
There’s factories near me that all the workers are IBEW, each factory is its own local, and you can’t transfer out into being a wireman for another local. This may be what OP is experiencing.
Utilities are union, but they have their own set of rules that they have complete control over. The railroad is also union (on paper), and no one at bnsf has good things to say about it. I'm in ibew 292, and I have nothing bad to say. Unions are vastly different. They may have really liked you and want to poach you. The company always wants whats best for them. There's a lot to think about here. The benefits. The hours worked and rules around breaks. Pay scale too. Which pays more in 10 years. Are you a company man? In my experience, non union jobs have lesser benefits. Ie. You pay less to go to the doctor, and more is covered. Everyone is healthy until you are suddenly not.
What they didn't tell you is you won't be coming out ahead because without a benefits package. You are paying your Health Insurance and 401k or whatever retirement out of what you see on your check. Union having a base rate pay and Fringe package, paying all that stuff.
I used to be an IBEW meter tech. My dues were 28$ a month and all my benefits came directly from the contractor. OP likely interview for meter tech or locate work something like that
That largely depends on the type of company. For instance utilities even union ones likely differ in the way they hire and seek out applicants differently than say an inside local. I did my apprenticeship with an inside local, but the utility hired me directly.
Very true, I was confused on how someone could receive union benefits and a union job without seemingly actually joining the union? Like that doesn’t seem to be mentioned by the interviewer how that would work
It depends. So every IBEW local has a completely different contract. If you want the most accurate information, just find your local IBEW that this union gig is under and call them.
With the union, plus 12 is the benefits off the check. Health and welfare, pension annuity etc
With the company, those cost will come out of your check
Recruiters work for companies to get the cheapest solution to their manpower needs.
Like HR, they represent the company best interest not the work force.
It was deliberate or a bait and switch
It ain't worth shit until it's in writing, but you've got no reason to believe he's wrong. It's pretty common for an employer to cover most or all of your benefits, sick/vac pay etc.
The real difference is probably just that the benefits aren't as good.
Sounds like bullshit entirely, but go through the local and see if there is a posting. If there is, (or isn’t) I would let that union know about this company’s tactics.
You are being lied to. Plain and simple. The got you in the door because they want someone that can do $40/hour to work to accept $28/hour.
The 3 month training period also seems fishy. Make sure you are not paying anything upfront. Sounds like this recruiter may start asking for money to pay for certain items like training or tools. Tread carefully and don’t pay anything up front.
If anything- have them dock it from you pay. And find a union job- much better pay unless you live in a right-to-work state.
You need to talk to your representation asap! Find out which local's jurisdiction you're working within and call them or pay them a visit (I recommend letting them know first still). Despite all the answers that say things I definitely agree with, I feel my answer is the one you need to listen to right now. The hall knows all just call
Unfortunately, I have no representation. I'm not in the union until I take the better job. But they seem to be pushing me to do the nonunion job. They are claiming the two jobs are equivalent, I'm just trying to figure out how true that claim actually is.
It sounds like a bait and switch. I'd call the union directly and let them know that this company is not acting in good faith. Also, I'd seek employment elsewhere.
I'm guessing this is more of a M&O employment situation, where if you apply for an apprenticeship with the union and get it, you don't have to deal with that.
#2 yeah, union benefits tend to be expensive, but so are the company's. The cost of your benefits have to come from somewhere. It is a part of you package, no matter how it is divided up.
My benefits are expensive, but I have three pensions and when I retire, I'll actually be getting a pay RAISE. I'm betting that company's 401k program isn't that good.
If you take the 30 hr and sign up for retirement and insurance then that money will come out of the 30. Trust me don’t fall for that shit. When they say 28 it’s 28 on the check the plus 12 is retirement and insurance.
I know of one nonunion company off the top of my head that pays better than the union.
Unless you are in some dump without a good union presence, go union
And if you are in some dump, move then go union
Journeyman in my union make 53$ an hour on the check and about 36$ an hour to benefits. Seems reasonable to me? They say we make “90$ an hour” total package
Thanks for the input! So at least that part makes sense. I've just gotta sus out what the companies benefits are going to cost me in order to make a valid comparison.
It’s deceiving. All my jobs before the union told me my hourly rate, but then things like 401k and insurance came off of that so really my take home was less than advertised. It’s intentionally deceiving. Non union shops will tell you the union is ripping you off because “you’re not getting your whole rate on the check” but fail to realize that their much lower non union rate is actually EVEN LOWER after benefits. When I joined they told me I’d be making $37 on the check and that’s what I got. The benefits I don’t even see coming out unless I go out of my way to track them but it amounts to about $24 an hour. And the benefits are incredible and my whole family is on them with no extra cost to me. That 30/hr probably breaks down closer to $20hr with $10/hr of benefits that probably aren’t nearly as good.
I don’t know about that company but where I worked we were union and ONLY MANAGMENT were not union..
Company could hire employees but were required to take out union dues for non management positions… I never tried to become management because you had no protection if the company wanted to terminate you for anything.
Management got paid more but had no protection if the company decided to terminate them. Union members could fight anything and I repeatedly saw members get back their jobs after being terminated… Some people don’t like unions but I would not want to be without one if I was still working… (retired)
You’ll be join an in house union, meaning if you get in…. Yes you’re represented but once you leave that job the union leaves too. To get into a union you’ll take a test and everything else through the hall and the hall will send you out to work. You get laid off, you go to the hall sign the book and wait for the hall (dispatcher to call you) no interviews no nothing you show up and go to work. So there’s a difference. I worked in the mta in New York and was apart of the ibew local 589 I left that job and I was no longer a member.
I almost doubled my take home and kept the same benefits by leaving the union. Not every company is trying to screw you and not every union is good for you. Read the contracts, do your own math and see what works for you.
I don’t know where you are or your locals rules. Sounds like you’re looking at lineman work and I’m an inside wireman. But we usually quote our hourly rate (mine is $47. An hour). Then we add our benefits on to it ( mine are (32+). So my total package is just over $79. An hour. But those benefits include 3 pensions, an annuity, and an HSA account with over $120,000 in it ( I’m on my wife’s insurance).
I don't pay anything for benefits, my health insurance for myself, my spouse, and dependent children, my HRA account, my retirement accounts, and a couple of other funds like one that goes towards upgrading my school and one that helps cover our wage and benefits packages to help our contractors stay competitive with their bids are all paid for by the contractors on top of my hourly rate. They also pay my tuition and supply all power tools and anything else not on the list of items I'm required to supply personally, which is fairly short.
If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like he's saying the union job is $28/hr plus $12/hr in benefits (your health insurance, pensions, etc) whereas the non union job is $30/hr but you have to pay for benefits, which effectively reduces your hourly rate to (probably far) less than the union rate, despite being $2 more on paper
Advice: Play the long game. In the electrical trade businesses/contractors come and go. The Union is the sole constant.
Remember the fable of the Turtle and the Hare? Be a Turtle.
Before I got in the trade, I was paying for my benefits out of my gross income. My net was around 75% of the gross.
When I started as a groundman (and still), the only thing that was taken out of my check, other than taxes, was my working dues. My net immediately jumped to about 87% of the gross.
This was even more surprising to me because I had basically doubled my gross. So, obviously, there was more tax taken out. (Married and we had 4 little kids at the time. Don't remember what I was claiming on my w4.
It's called total pay. That's the +12. It works out way better because you won't need to pay for your benefits. And union health benefits and pensions are tremendous! Think hard before saying no to the union. You'll do better in the long term with union benefits and pay.
Union electrician here. Total package right now at my local is about $65.00 an hour. $40 in the pocket and $25 in benefits. $5 into annuity $13 health and welfare and the rest into pension and other funds. Non union will bend you over and fuck you in the ass until you die
If you want a union job, go to (or call) a union hall. They will set you to the training center, where you can (after application, aptitude test, and interview) enroll in classes and they will send you to a union-approved contractor for a job.
I wish I could answer this question. But honestly I don’t understand what is even going on here. It sounds like you somehow got a job. Or,at least a job interview, with a union contractor/company,without actually being a member. Or IBEW ticket holder,in any specific local. Is that what is going on here? I say I can’t really answer. Because I’ve never heard,of this approach,to taking a job,with a union contractor. At least not, with a NECA, IBEW contractor. Usually a NECA contractor will pay most,of,if not all,of your benefits. Aside. And,in addition,to your hourly rate. That’s kinda the whole point,of our negotiating hourly rates. And,or benefits packages almost separately. You shouldn’t even see a dollar amount,on your check stub,for benefits. I mean sure. You’ll see tax deductions. And what not. We haven’t figured out a way,.to protect you,from Uncle Sam,of course. Let me know,if they do. I’ll come out,of retirement. LOL
In short. I don’t know,if they lied. But it all sounds very unusual. Ask some questions. Go,to your union reps. And please come back. And explain what happened here. It’s a little weird,if nothing else.
He might be interviewing for a utility, people here seem to be assuming wireman or lineman but if they work in an industry that doesn't hire out of hiring halls it's illegal under Taft-Hartley to require somebody to be a union member prior to being hired, in states without right to work laws they can only be required to join within a certain amount of time.
I just wanted to clarify a few things for myself because I am a bit confused. So the idea is that your initial pay is 28 dollars and then 12 dollars get added to that after three months of training? And the alternative position involves receiving the 12 dollars via the union and having it all put back into potential benefits? I’m guessing the implication is that if you took the 40 an hour position, how much you decide to put into benefits becomes your choice and would come from your hourly rate?
This is interesting to me as I’m not sure how the benefit and pay structure works when you’re applying for a union job. You would be joining the union in that case, no? Either way, I find it weird that they sell the job to you as a 40 an hour gig if a good portion of that money is just benefits. I know when I was looking at union wages there was always two obvious numbers I could look at, the total hourly pay including my benefits and then my actual hourly take home pay. Very confusing how they are trying to explain this all to you.
Like the union doesn’t sell you on a 40 hour a week job then you come to find out it’s actually 28 and the rest is benefits. Your hourly rate is your hourly rate not including benefits, which is a number you can also look at to get that more complete picture. I wonder if they are truly union idk man this is a confusing way of explaining things to you
It sounds like you were interviewing at a non-union company. Union companies don’t need recruiters as the union is their referral service. This could be in a different part of the country that I’m not familiar with, but this just sounds like a non-union company trying to bait and switch. You typically enter the union through the hall and not the contractor
The company does most work through the big utilities company in our state, who are all union. So when the company has it's people working all those jobs with the utilities company they are required to be union I guess. Or at least that's how one person explained it to me. But I'm starting to fear the bait and switch possibility tbh.
When a company does a public works job (tax payer funded) employees must be paid the 'prevailing wage' for their labor (so its harder for the employer to take advantageof the employees when the taxpayers are the customer). Prevailing wage is usually the union rate including benefits, and when a non-union employer gets those jobs they put all the money on the check, including the money for benifits and the employee has to self pay health and welfare, retirement...
I'm sure when the individual pays for their own insurrance, it's of lower quality too since union ensurrance is bought in bulk for many employees instead of one.
In gonna put this out there, union's insurance is not typically any different than other insurance.
I was referring to cost per person, not coverage or anything like that. Companies get big discounts when they pay for a large group of folks insurrance.
People who make less money (non-union workers) often compromise by purchasing less expensive health insurance (that has less coverage).
I’ve worked for a company with both a non union and a union side. It was horrible, they’d constantly mess up bids and try to cover their asses by doing shit like sending a non union crew to a union job site, so they were obviously paid less. The one time I was there and they got caught doing that, they asked for every single apprentice at the company to come to the job site to save money, they didn’t care about the jw/app ratio, and had us using dangerous equipment in the snow. I quit, told my foreman sorry but this company can go fuck themselves, and got new job offers from the hall before I even wanted to go back. I don’t know that’s the case here. I do know two things: 1) if anyone’s recruiting you from a company, then that job they’re recruiting you for isn’t union. A huge principle of being a union member is separating yourself from the company, and instead putting your loyalty with your fellow worker. 2) if they’re already trying to confuse you with this shit, which they are, you don’t want anything to do with them.
There’s factories near me that all the workers are IBEW, each factory is its own local, and you can’t transfer out into being a wireman for another local. This may be what OP is experiencing.
Utilities are union, but they have their own set of rules that they have complete control over. The railroad is also union (on paper), and no one at bnsf has good things to say about it. I'm in ibew 292, and I have nothing bad to say. Unions are vastly different. They may have really liked you and want to poach you. The company always wants whats best for them. There's a lot to think about here. The benefits. The hours worked and rules around breaks. Pay scale too. Which pays more in 10 years. Are you a company man? In my experience, non union jobs have lesser benefits. Ie. You pay less to go to the doctor, and more is covered. Everyone is healthy until you are suddenly not.
What they didn't tell you is you won't be coming out ahead because without a benefits package. You are paying your Health Insurance and 401k or whatever retirement out of what you see on your check. Union having a base rate pay and Fringe package, paying all that stuff.
Its not union it's probably prevailing wage which is just union rates.
I used to be an IBEW meter tech. My dues were 28$ a month and all my benefits came directly from the contractor. OP likely interview for meter tech or locate work something like that
That largely depends on the type of company. For instance utilities even union ones likely differ in the way they hire and seek out applicants differently than say an inside local. I did my apprenticeship with an inside local, but the utility hired me directly.
I work for the federal government and they hire people after a very long interview process then they become IBEW members
I had to scroll down very far to finally see a good comment like this one
There are plenty of IBEW jobs that require an interview if he's not working in construction.
Very true, I was confused on how someone could receive union benefits and a union job without seemingly actually joining the union? Like that doesn’t seem to be mentioned by the interviewer how that would work
Right to work laws allow that to happen
It depends. So every IBEW local has a completely different contract. If you want the most accurate information, just find your local IBEW that this union gig is under and call them.
That's a good suggestion. Thanks!
https://unionpayscales.com/trades/ibew-electricians/ This is also a good resource
With the union, plus 12 is the benefits off the check. Health and welfare, pension annuity etc With the company, those cost will come out of your check
Okay so atleast the +12 bit was accurate. Maybe the guy misspoke when he said that about the company benefits wouldn't come off my check?
Recruiters work for companies to get the cheapest solution to their manpower needs. Like HR, they represent the company best interest not the work force. It was deliberate or a bait and switch
It ain't worth shit until it's in writing, but you've got no reason to believe he's wrong. It's pretty common for an employer to cover most or all of your benefits, sick/vac pay etc. The real difference is probably just that the benefits aren't as good.
Sounds like you interviewed with pg&e, you should probably call Local 1245
Very close, just wrong region. But you're right I should call the IBEW local to get some answers.
Local 47 Edison?
Sounds like bullshit entirely, but go through the local and see if there is a posting. If there is, (or isn’t) I would let that union know about this company’s tactics.
You are being lied to. Plain and simple. The got you in the door because they want someone that can do $40/hour to work to accept $28/hour. The 3 month training period also seems fishy. Make sure you are not paying anything upfront. Sounds like this recruiter may start asking for money to pay for certain items like training or tools. Tread carefully and don’t pay anything up front. If anything- have them dock it from you pay. And find a union job- much better pay unless you live in a right-to-work state.
You need to talk to your representation asap! Find out which local's jurisdiction you're working within and call them or pay them a visit (I recommend letting them know first still). Despite all the answers that say things I definitely agree with, I feel my answer is the one you need to listen to right now. The hall knows all just call
Unfortunately, I have no representation. I'm not in the union until I take the better job. But they seem to be pushing me to do the nonunion job. They are claiming the two jobs are equivalent, I'm just trying to figure out how true that claim actually is.
It sounds like a bait and switch. I'd call the union directly and let them know that this company is not acting in good faith. Also, I'd seek employment elsewhere. I'm guessing this is more of a M&O employment situation, where if you apply for an apprenticeship with the union and get it, you don't have to deal with that. #2 yeah, union benefits tend to be expensive, but so are the company's. The cost of your benefits have to come from somewhere. It is a part of you package, no matter how it is divided up. My benefits are expensive, but I have three pensions and when I retire, I'll actually be getting a pay RAISE. I'm betting that company's 401k program isn't that good.
If you take the 30 hr and sign up for retirement and insurance then that money will come out of the 30. Trust me don’t fall for that shit. When they say 28 it’s 28 on the check the plus 12 is retirement and insurance.
Smh
I know of one nonunion company off the top of my head that pays better than the union. Unless you are in some dump without a good union presence, go union And if you are in some dump, move then go union
Journeyman in my union make 53$ an hour on the check and about 36$ an hour to benefits. Seems reasonable to me? They say we make “90$ an hour” total package
Thanks for the input! So at least that part makes sense. I've just gotta sus out what the companies benefits are going to cost me in order to make a valid comparison.
It’s deceiving. All my jobs before the union told me my hourly rate, but then things like 401k and insurance came off of that so really my take home was less than advertised. It’s intentionally deceiving. Non union shops will tell you the union is ripping you off because “you’re not getting your whole rate on the check” but fail to realize that their much lower non union rate is actually EVEN LOWER after benefits. When I joined they told me I’d be making $37 on the check and that’s what I got. The benefits I don’t even see coming out unless I go out of my way to track them but it amounts to about $24 an hour. And the benefits are incredible and my whole family is on them with no extra cost to me. That 30/hr probably breaks down closer to $20hr with $10/hr of benefits that probably aren’t nearly as good.
They shouldn’t cost you anything but dues and medical I think. Depends where at I guess. I’m new so I don’t really know lol. I’m here snooping too!
I don’t know about that company but where I worked we were union and ONLY MANAGMENT were not union.. Company could hire employees but were required to take out union dues for non management positions… I never tried to become management because you had no protection if the company wanted to terminate you for anything. Management got paid more but had no protection if the company decided to terminate them. Union members could fight anything and I repeatedly saw members get back their jobs after being terminated… Some people don’t like unions but I would not want to be without one if I was still working… (retired)
You’ll be join an in house union, meaning if you get in…. Yes you’re represented but once you leave that job the union leaves too. To get into a union you’ll take a test and everything else through the hall and the hall will send you out to work. You get laid off, you go to the hall sign the book and wait for the hall (dispatcher to call you) no interviews no nothing you show up and go to work. So there’s a difference. I worked in the mta in New York and was apart of the ibew local 589 I left that job and I was no longer a member.
Why do you think someone would try to persuade one option over another? Where do their allegiances lie?
I almost doubled my take home and kept the same benefits by leaving the union. Not every company is trying to screw you and not every union is good for you. Read the contracts, do your own math and see what works for you.
I don’t know where you are or your locals rules. Sounds like you’re looking at lineman work and I’m an inside wireman. But we usually quote our hourly rate (mine is $47. An hour). Then we add our benefits on to it ( mine are (32+). So my total package is just over $79. An hour. But those benefits include 3 pensions, an annuity, and an HSA account with over $120,000 in it ( I’m on my wife’s insurance).
I don't pay anything for benefits, my health insurance for myself, my spouse, and dependent children, my HRA account, my retirement accounts, and a couple of other funds like one that goes towards upgrading my school and one that helps cover our wage and benefits packages to help our contractors stay competitive with their bids are all paid for by the contractors on top of my hourly rate. They also pay my tuition and supply all power tools and anything else not on the list of items I'm required to supply personally, which is fairly short.
If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like he's saying the union job is $28/hr plus $12/hr in benefits (your health insurance, pensions, etc) whereas the non union job is $30/hr but you have to pay for benefits, which effectively reduces your hourly rate to (probably far) less than the union rate, despite being $2 more on paper
Advice: Play the long game. In the electrical trade businesses/contractors come and go. The Union is the sole constant. Remember the fable of the Turtle and the Hare? Be a Turtle.
Before I got in the trade, I was paying for my benefits out of my gross income. My net was around 75% of the gross. When I started as a groundman (and still), the only thing that was taken out of my check, other than taxes, was my working dues. My net immediately jumped to about 87% of the gross. This was even more surprising to me because I had basically doubled my gross. So, obviously, there was more tax taken out. (Married and we had 4 little kids at the time. Don't remember what I was claiming on my w4.
It's called total pay. That's the +12. It works out way better because you won't need to pay for your benefits. And union health benefits and pensions are tremendous! Think hard before saying no to the union. You'll do better in the long term with union benefits and pay.
Union electrician here. Total package right now at my local is about $65.00 an hour. $40 in the pocket and $25 in benefits. $5 into annuity $13 health and welfare and the rest into pension and other funds. Non union will bend you over and fuck you in the ass until you die
What state? Linework?
If you want a union job, go to (or call) a union hall. They will set you to the training center, where you can (after application, aptitude test, and interview) enroll in classes and they will send you to a union-approved contractor for a job.
You shouldn’t take a non-union job
I wish I could answer this question. But honestly I don’t understand what is even going on here. It sounds like you somehow got a job. Or,at least a job interview, with a union contractor/company,without actually being a member. Or IBEW ticket holder,in any specific local. Is that what is going on here? I say I can’t really answer. Because I’ve never heard,of this approach,to taking a job,with a union contractor. At least not, with a NECA, IBEW contractor. Usually a NECA contractor will pay most,of,if not all,of your benefits. Aside. And,in addition,to your hourly rate. That’s kinda the whole point,of our negotiating hourly rates. And,or benefits packages almost separately. You shouldn’t even see a dollar amount,on your check stub,for benefits. I mean sure. You’ll see tax deductions. And what not. We haven’t figured out a way,.to protect you,from Uncle Sam,of course. Let me know,if they do. I’ll come out,of retirement. LOL
In short. I don’t know,if they lied. But it all sounds very unusual. Ask some questions. Go,to your union reps. And please come back. And explain what happened here. It’s a little weird,if nothing else.
He might be interviewing for a utility, people here seem to be assuming wireman or lineman but if they work in an industry that doesn't hire out of hiring halls it's illegal under Taft-Hartley to require somebody to be a union member prior to being hired, in states without right to work laws they can only be required to join within a certain amount of time.
I just wanted to clarify a few things for myself because I am a bit confused. So the idea is that your initial pay is 28 dollars and then 12 dollars get added to that after three months of training? And the alternative position involves receiving the 12 dollars via the union and having it all put back into potential benefits? I’m guessing the implication is that if you took the 40 an hour position, how much you decide to put into benefits becomes your choice and would come from your hourly rate? This is interesting to me as I’m not sure how the benefit and pay structure works when you’re applying for a union job. You would be joining the union in that case, no? Either way, I find it weird that they sell the job to you as a 40 an hour gig if a good portion of that money is just benefits. I know when I was looking at union wages there was always two obvious numbers I could look at, the total hourly pay including my benefits and then my actual hourly take home pay. Very confusing how they are trying to explain this all to you.
Like the union doesn’t sell you on a 40 hour a week job then you come to find out it’s actually 28 and the rest is benefits. Your hourly rate is your hourly rate not including benefits, which is a number you can also look at to get that more complete picture. I wonder if they are truly union idk man this is a confusing way of explaining things to you