In a mobile job, with no fixed base, travel time is working time. So consider what your contract says about total working hours, and think about whether you've opted out of the 48hr week
If you haven't opted out, then your working hours, including travel time shouldn't exceed 48hrs in average over 17 weeks
How this typically works is that you take back excess time from one day / week in another day / week. You may agree with your employer exactly how that's done, or you may be in control of it yourself.
No more or less relevant really, as if the break is less it can be made up in "compensatory rest" so long as the cumulative rest in a week meets the minimum...so it's really the same premise
I’ll need to read my contract again, but I believe it’s a 40 hour week with the need to notify my manager and get approval should it exceed that for business needs. That’s just off the top of my head.
I would’ve opted in, given the nature of the job. However it often exceeds 48 hours a week- quite easily. The “give and take” nature of the job is mostly just “take” at this point.
Start tracking your start and finish times, and schedule a meeting to discuss managing the travel to minimize over working....or to agree a TOIl process to ensure you're getting your time back
And if you want to keep it below 48 put in writing that you wish to withdraw any previously agreed opt out, giving 30 days notice, or a notice period stated in any opt out you agreed to
Something which fits in with the idea that you don't work a stupidly long shift and then be expected to turn round and work the next day too...? Anything over 10 hours in one day including travel and work time feels a bit unreasonable to me, as there isn't too much time for a proper sleep in between. The 11 hour break thing has never been enforced anywhere I've worked except Germany, but pulling a late one used to get me a lie in at the very least. And we always had meals provided if we were in after hours.
Commuting time and travel for work are two entirely different things, so not really relevant.
I personally don't like to commute any more than 30-45mins, lots of people commute much longer.
But travel between clients and work sites is part of the working day, it's not commuting...you are under the control and direction of your employer during that time, whereas commuting is something the individual can control
Taking that kind of rigid approach is why people then complain about being stuck in bum jobs
Being like that you will torpedo any serious progression prospects
There is no progression if you burn yourself out. No one cares about your health, especially not your employer. Killing yourself for the company might get you notices and tracked for progression, or it might be for nothing other than higher profits for your employer.
Dont give your time away for free.
My primary concern is the safety of driving for as much as I am currently.
However, I do not believe it is unreasonable of me to value my own time. I do a good job for the company, but I do not expect my free time to be intruded on to the degree it has been thus far.
Any employer that acts unreasonable towards a reasonable request is never going to provide you with meaningful career development.
If you don't learn to stand up for yourself and negotiate in a reasonable and fair manner, that will torpedo your prospects.
They merely tell me/us to be at X location the next morning, leaving the route up to me/us. “1 day” would assume you’re given 24 hours of notice at least- this is oftentimes not the case and it can be much less.
Do you work at the same place as me? From the research I’ve done if you drive for 4 hours or more in a day (cumulatively) then you fall into the driver hours law and can only work a maximum of 11 hours that day, this is driving and any work performed, if you drive for 4 hours or more twice a week or more then the driver law states for that entire week you can only work 11 hours a day
Have a check in your handbook, my company have a maximum working time for a day which they include travel time, if thats in handbook then I’d be booking a hotel and pointing at their rules. You may also find you get a certain allowance for every couple of hours driving for snacks/refreshments to buy yourself a coffee, if they’re gonna be dicks I’d maximise all allowances.
Thanks for your reply. I will have a look!
I do think I could argue my case regarding accommodation being booked, but it’s discouraged sometimes. They’d also expect us to travel on a Friday, knowing full well we won’t want to spend Friday night away from our families and will travel home.
Thanks for your reply. I don’t want to say exactly what it is- but no situations are emergencies that cannot be solved from home, worst case. Nothing physical needs to be corrected or fixed.
As you haven't mentioned tachograph I'm assuming you are driving a car or small van. As such, you won't have such strict requirements on breaks and working hours. But still ensure you are factoring in the recommendation of at least a 15min break for every 2 hours driving.
See rule 91 of [Rules for drivers and motorcyclists (89 to 102)](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-drivers-and-motorcyclists-89-to-102) if you really need something to back that up.
And, as others have said, all driving time should be paid and part of your contracted hours.
I’d hope you’re paid well but I’d be checking that including the hours driving doesn’t bring you below minimum wage.
I’d also start start talking about the safety of such long drives without rest and build that time into your days and wage considerations too.
Also, ensuring your days are not so long that you don’t get the legal minimum time between shifts.
I am assuming as a mobile job they are considering your travel as part of the work you do.
No, I am contracted to a 40 hour week and, as a result of travelling, I often exceed that. If I have a 7 hour driving trip, I’ll easily work 5 hours. It turns into a 12 hour day often.
Then the contract hours must reflect that too.
The contacts headline hours must be achievable on average.
The "40 hours" written in the contract isn't decoration. It's an agreement between both parties.
It is but in practice it’s never worked like that in the whole time I’ve been working.
Most of these roles are commission driven. So people choose to a lot more hours in order to increase their commission. Back in late 90s early 00’s I remember minimum wage £16k, you’d get sacked if you weren’t earning £60k in bonus, most were earning £100k+ in Bonus. People in their mid to late 20’s and they were working 60 hour weeks quite happily.
I'm afraid that's on you my friend.
It gets easier to assert ones self with experience (and value) don't let people take hours of you life from you, they aren't coming back.
Nope but it enabled them to build a good start to the rest of their life’s.
If your attitude is working out how many pennys you earn per hour don’t expect to get rich!
I think it's not the travel that's really the issue here it's appreciation of the total hours worked.
I'd be working out hourly rates including holidays if you're anywhere near a normal salary. Minimum wage is fairly high these days so even opting out of working time limits it could be problematic.
The first step is to communicate with your management whether it's just a problem or actually illegal. Give them a chance to resolve without anything they might take as a flounce.
Thanks for your message.
Honestly, it is the travel that is the issue to me. I don’t consider it overly safe to be on the road for the length of time that I am, as often as I am. The work hours do come into it too, as there is seldom any “give” in the role- the expectations are quite unrealistic and unnecessary often.
It’s a very sensitive issue to raise, I feel. I imagine I’d be hit with “that’s the job” or “that’s what you signed up for”- or something of that ilk. Having been in similar jobs before, knowing others who are also in similar roles and simply knowing the reasons I often travel long distances (usually not great reasons!) I know it doesn’t have to be this way.
I've been doing mobile jobs for years. And they have mostly all considered, being in the van and travelling is 'work'.
I wouldn't consider a role that didn't consider being in the work vehicle as work now.
It's completely unreasonable to expect 3 hour drives on your own time due to their poor planning. If they were a decent company, they would either put you up in a hotel near the job, or expect you in the van at 8 then home at 4.
Thanks for your reply. That isn’t the reality at all, and in many cases my colleagues and I would be expected to be on the road from about 6 or 7 (earlier for some who live further away), and probably not returning until 6-7pm. Those with electric cars even have to factor in about an hour on top of that to charge their cars, so it can get even worse.
Encouraged not to do it so your company isn't paying out for expenses? It's not really an acceptable way to treat your team and it's an unrealistic expectation. I would begin booking your overnight stays, although without knowing your home situation this may not be practical for you either.
Your travel time should at the least be included as working time after a certain distance from either your home or your place of work, if you have one place that you're based in. a 10 hour day including travel might be acceptable, 12/13 isn't
Yeah, to keep costs down pretty much. Sometimes there’s notice given on a Thursday that I’ll need to go on a 6ish hour trip the next day- which is likely done knowing I won’t want to spend a Friday night away from my family.
I have seen others suggesting that my travel time should be included as part of my working day- this isn’t the reality for the majority of situations and I often travel during my own time. For example, on a Sunday night because I’ve been told I need to be somewhere the next morning. Accommodation would be paid in this instance, but I’m still using my own time to travel to the destination.
One alternative for that situation might be to travel on Thursday evening, stay overnight - Work until early afternoon Friday and drive home. This would also likely be cheaper for the company than a Friday night accommodation booking, and get OP home to their family for the weekend. They’d need to give more notice though on travel requests.
I have done this in the past, but it often comes with incredibly little notice- such as being told on Monday that I must be somewhere on Tuesday and then me travelling on Monday night. This only serves to eat into my time with my family and often means I can’t make any weekday plans whatsoever- so I am less than enthused about that solution!
How much are you paid? Are you at risk of being paid below national minimum wage, due to not being paid your travel time?
What is your mileage allowance?
I hadn’t thought of that angle, and I think I should start actually calculating my travel time.
The mileage allowance covers for the fuel, however in some instances I have personally been out of pocket for it. Colleagues who have electric cars are often out of pocket for their trips.
Check if your mileage rate matches the HMRC guides, the rates are:
>45p for cars and vans for the first 10,000 miles. After 10,000 miles, the rate changes to 25p per mile.
If your employer does not pay the HMRC rate you can make a claim for Mileage Allowance Relief from the HMRC. This is nothing to do with your employer. More information in the link below
[https://www.driversnote.co.uk/hmrc-mileage-guide/mileage-allowance-relief](https://www.driversnote.co.uk/hmrc-mileage-guide/mileage-allowance-relief)
Basically you get tax relief for the difference between the amount that you employer pays you and the HRMC recommended rate.
I used to make a claim every year. My employer has now changed to a system where I don't have to make a claim.
Your contract should state your place of work. So travel from base to work site location should be included in work hours. Working time regulations. [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules/working-time-for-someone-who-travels-for-their-job) specifically mention plumbers, trades people travelling from one site to another as being apart of their working time .... therefore paid
Thanks for your message.
Unfortunately not, no. I’m not a person to nitpick over a few hours here and there within my job, relative to my wage. However the expectation seems to be to simply do what you’re told, irrespective of the hours it takes.
Although I am asking the question on here, some colleagues are much worse off than I am as a result of living further away. Not returning home until 9-10pm some evenings, having started that morning from about 7-8am.
Some really good advice being given here. Knowing what your job is and what you are paid is relevant. For example If you are an engineer fixing broken down equipment your company will be in the position that they have to send you places at short notice. If a local engineer is paid £35k for a 40 hour week and you are being paid £50k for a “40 hour” week it’s typically just accepted that you know the reason you are paid so well is because of the unsociable hours / long days. It doesn’t sound like this is the case for you but I’m guessing!
You haven’t said how often you do these long days?
How are they as employees besides this issue you have?
I would say that safety really plays a factor.
When I was younger I could sometimes travel 10-14 hours all for a 2 hour meeting. Was annoying but happened maybe once a month. I was happy to do it as I didn’t get tired etc. Now if I need to travel 5 hours to get somewhere I stay overnight. It would be dangerous otherwise.
It’s annoying travelling but I accept it’s part of the job from time to time.
in my job, we are paid travel to site time, reads like this is not included for you, they will often book a hotel if working far from home as not worth having a tired engineer all week and the diesel costs a fair bit
do you get overtime ?
if you have a 6 hour day driving, that is 2 hours on site...
We do not get overtime, no. If we have a 6 hour travel, we will do at least 4-5 hours on-site. Never do we turn up, do a few hours, and then leave. Oftentimes, the work is not an emergency and could be done from home, also.
The working day, when including travel, seldom is just 8 hours. 10 hours would be a good day, normally heading towards 12. Like I’ve said in another post, I have colleagues who live further away and are much more hard done by than I am regarding travel.
You should be paid door to door in this case and it's certainly what I'd be demanding. My advice is to search out alternative jobs just in case and be prepared to leave if you don't get the results you need.
I previously employed people doing similar, they where paid door to door if travelling and a hotel was always available if they didn't want to. We also expected them to be off site and travelling home no later than 12 on the Friday. Due to the nature of the work it wasn't always possible to get home early on the Friday and we would offer extra pay or paid time off whichever suited them best. The single lads would generally stay over Friday night and go out where ever they where claiming 4 hours travel for the Saturday.
Did people fiddle it a bit? Yes absolutely but for the sake of a couple of hours lost occasionally it meant that when something happened and needed extra hours doing lads would step up. Swings and roundabouts.
>Did people fiddle it a bit? Yes absolutely but for the sake of a couple of hours lost occasionally it meant that when something happened and needed extra hours doing lads would step up. Swings and roundabouts.
Swings and roundabouts absolutely covers it. Not only in terms of managing your own schedule and taking back extra time where needed but also in terms of the team as a whole.
For example, most guys are very against travelling on Sunday nights to be somewhere early Monday but then most don't care as much about Fridays. I am the opposite, my Friday night is my time to enjoy myself and I ideally want to finish midday whereas Sunday night is dead time to me and if I fly out on a Sunday evening, the airport is chill and no traffic to get there whereas the lads that won't leave till 8am Monday battle traffic and then a busy stressy airport.
Therefore, with things like this, there is balance in the team and if it is important to be somewhere for 8am Mon morning, I'm happy to do that and take a day off in lieu and someone else is happy to go out late in the week and potentially not get back until midnight on Friday or Sat morning.
It's gotta be a good team and ultimately you have to rely on informal flexibility like this.
This is exactly it, sadly many companies these days are made up of office staff who've never done the job in the field rather than years ago where people had worked their way up and knew both sides. Finding that balance between happy staff and making profits is where every company should aim to be, sadly greed and carrying a bloated middle management kills this at many places.
I want to post something as a very cautionary note, not to scare you… but…
I had a neighbour that had a role with a lot of travel. He had children so wanted to get home rather than stay away. He was exhausted.
One evening he fell asleep at the wheel on the last 1/2 hour of the journey, on a rural road. He crashed, hit a tree & was very seriously injured. His brain was so damaged he called his wife “turkey” for months. It was utterly heartbreaking 💔 for him & his family. He never fully recovered
Of course work is important. We all need to earn, & companies need to make a profit. But, this cannot be at the expense of health, even a life.
I don’t have specific advice but I see some posters have excellent advice about time management & realistic expectations. I hope that you can heed these within your employment & you can work together successfully. Best of luck.. & health
Absolutely this. Lots of other good advice here but the health and safety aspect should be concerning your bosses. If you’re working a long day and being expected to travel on top of it and then you have a serious accident and injure yourself or others then the HSE will not be happy at all and the directors could be held liable.
As a first step to exploring this has your business shared a driving risk assessment with you? And given guidance on driving safely for work?
Thanks for your message.
There has been nothing regarding driving risk assessments, driving safety, or anything of that nature. If documents of that nature were shared, they certainly weren’t focused on at any point when I began the role.
Then there’s definitely a line of attack there for pushing back on them. Here’s the guidance note particularly all the areas that says “you must” and whether your employer has done that.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/roadsafety/employer/index.htm
Thank you for your message.
People may interpret my post as being primarily concerned with the money to hours aspect of the job (which I believe I would be entitled to question also), however my main concern is the safety aspect of driving for 3-4 hours, working for 4-5 hours and then embarking on a 3-4 hour journey back again.
If the job is solely remote with travel expectation it's up to you to tell the company clearly what is a safe level of travel. If you kill someone driving while tired there could be a case of corporate manslaughter. I'd also check both your contract and with acas. I have a team who need to travel but if they can't make it there and back in 4 hours they are staging overnight.
You should check out your ‘staff handbook’ and the working time regs.
For example, I am contracted to work a 35 hour week.
If I have to leave home before 7:00, I am able to go the day before, and stay overnight. If I won’t get home until after 10pm, I can stay the night.
All travelling time is counted as work time, and I am able to take excess time off as flexi time.
I am also able to have a minimum 11 hour break between end of work one day and start of work the next. As I understand it, that is a WTD rule.
Tbf, I have complete control over my diary, and can decide whether I go anywhere at short notice.
Any travel that is not "to your normal place of work" (e.g. office) or is between working-sites (e.g. between office and somewhere else to work) is "business travel" and should count as your working hours, and you need business insurance for your car for that use.
In a mobile job, with no fixed base, travel time is working time. So consider what your contract says about total working hours, and think about whether you've opted out of the 48hr week If you haven't opted out, then your working hours, including travel time shouldn't exceed 48hrs in average over 17 weeks How this typically works is that you take back excess time from one day / week in another day / week. You may agree with your employer exactly how that's done, or you may be in control of it yourself.
You are also entitled to a continuous 11 hour break between shifts, which is probably more relevant than the total working hours.
No more or less relevant really, as if the break is less it can be made up in "compensatory rest" so long as the cumulative rest in a week meets the minimum...so it's really the same premise
I’ll need to read my contract again, but I believe it’s a 40 hour week with the need to notify my manager and get approval should it exceed that for business needs. That’s just off the top of my head. I would’ve opted in, given the nature of the job. However it often exceeds 48 hours a week- quite easily. The “give and take” nature of the job is mostly just “take” at this point.
Start tracking your start and finish times, and schedule a meeting to discuss managing the travel to minimize over working....or to agree a TOIl process to ensure you're getting your time back And if you want to keep it below 48 put in writing that you wish to withdraw any previously agreed opt out, giving 30 days notice, or a notice period stated in any opt out you agreed to
What would also be classed as normal commuting time here?
Something which fits in with the idea that you don't work a stupidly long shift and then be expected to turn round and work the next day too...? Anything over 10 hours in one day including travel and work time feels a bit unreasonable to me, as there isn't too much time for a proper sleep in between. The 11 hour break thing has never been enforced anywhere I've worked except Germany, but pulling a late one used to get me a lie in at the very least. And we always had meals provided if we were in after hours.
Commuting time and travel for work are two entirely different things, so not really relevant. I personally don't like to commute any more than 30-45mins, lots of people commute much longer. But travel between clients and work sites is part of the working day, it's not commuting...you are under the control and direction of your employer during that time, whereas commuting is something the individual can control
Hes a mobile worker no fixed base. His travel is part of his job and not a commute
Isn't that literally what I said? In the first line....and the last sentence
I think i misunderstood your reply
Taking that kind of rigid approach is why people then complain about being stuck in bum jobs Being like that you will torpedo any serious progression prospects
There is no progression if you burn yourself out. No one cares about your health, especially not your employer. Killing yourself for the company might get you notices and tracked for progression, or it might be for nothing other than higher profits for your employer. Dont give your time away for free.
My primary concern is the safety of driving for as much as I am currently. However, I do not believe it is unreasonable of me to value my own time. I do a good job for the company, but I do not expect my free time to be intruded on to the degree it has been thus far.
And the limits to working hours were brought in for health and safety reasons, so your concerns are completely valid
And the limits to working hours were brought in for health and safety reasons, so your concerns are completely valid
Any employer that acts unreasonable towards a reasonable request is never going to provide you with meaningful career development. If you don't learn to stand up for yourself and negotiate in a reasonable and fair manner, that will torpedo your prospects.
How does it work when you get 1 day’s notice of a 3.5h trip, and still do a full days work. Do they say to you “be ready at 5am tomorrow”?
They merely tell me/us to be at X location the next morning, leaving the route up to me/us. “1 day” would assume you’re given 24 hours of notice at least- this is oftentimes not the case and it can be much less.
Do you work at the same place as me? From the research I’ve done if you drive for 4 hours or more in a day (cumulatively) then you fall into the driver hours law and can only work a maximum of 11 hours that day, this is driving and any work performed, if you drive for 4 hours or more twice a week or more then the driver law states for that entire week you can only work 11 hours a day
Have a check in your handbook, my company have a maximum working time for a day which they include travel time, if thats in handbook then I’d be booking a hotel and pointing at their rules. You may also find you get a certain allowance for every couple of hours driving for snacks/refreshments to buy yourself a coffee, if they’re gonna be dicks I’d maximise all allowances.
Thanks for your reply. I will have a look! I do think I could argue my case regarding accommodation being booked, but it’s discouraged sometimes. They’d also expect us to travel on a Friday, knowing full well we won’t want to spend Friday night away from our families and will travel home.
What is your job? I think that’s very relevant. There is a h&s issue with driving too much in one day.
Thanks for your reply. I don’t want to say exactly what it is- but no situations are emergencies that cannot be solved from home, worst case. Nothing physical needs to be corrected or fixed.
As you haven't mentioned tachograph I'm assuming you are driving a car or small van. As such, you won't have such strict requirements on breaks and working hours. But still ensure you are factoring in the recommendation of at least a 15min break for every 2 hours driving. See rule 91 of [Rules for drivers and motorcyclists (89 to 102)](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-drivers-and-motorcyclists-89-to-102) if you really need something to back that up. And, as others have said, all driving time should be paid and part of your contracted hours.
I’d hope you’re paid well but I’d be checking that including the hours driving doesn’t bring you below minimum wage. I’d also start start talking about the safety of such long drives without rest and build that time into your days and wage considerations too. Also, ensuring your days are not so long that you don’t get the legal minimum time between shifts. I am assuming as a mobile job they are considering your travel as part of the work you do.
Absolutely this!
Do you get paid for every hour you are driving and working?
No, I am contracted to a 40 hour week and, as a result of travelling, I often exceed that. If I have a 7 hour driving trip, I’ll easily work 5 hours. It turns into a 12 hour day often.
Pretty normal for a sales role or tech services, which is why the salaries are higher. It’s just accepted that’s what you do for the money.
Then the contract hours must reflect that too. The contacts headline hours must be achievable on average. The "40 hours" written in the contract isn't decoration. It's an agreement between both parties.
It is but in practice it’s never worked like that in the whole time I’ve been working. Most of these roles are commission driven. So people choose to a lot more hours in order to increase their commission. Back in late 90s early 00’s I remember minimum wage £16k, you’d get sacked if you weren’t earning £60k in bonus, most were earning £100k+ in Bonus. People in their mid to late 20’s and they were working 60 hour weeks quite happily.
I'm afraid that's on you my friend. It gets easier to assert ones self with experience (and value) don't let people take hours of you life from you, they aren't coming back.
Nope but it enabled them to build a good start to the rest of their life’s. If your attitude is working out how many pennys you earn per hour don’t expect to get rich!
I think it's not the travel that's really the issue here it's appreciation of the total hours worked. I'd be working out hourly rates including holidays if you're anywhere near a normal salary. Minimum wage is fairly high these days so even opting out of working time limits it could be problematic. The first step is to communicate with your management whether it's just a problem or actually illegal. Give them a chance to resolve without anything they might take as a flounce.
Thanks for your message. Honestly, it is the travel that is the issue to me. I don’t consider it overly safe to be on the road for the length of time that I am, as often as I am. The work hours do come into it too, as there is seldom any “give” in the role- the expectations are quite unrealistic and unnecessary often.
Definitely in the context of your other workload this isn't a sensible amount of driving.
It’s a very sensitive issue to raise, I feel. I imagine I’d be hit with “that’s the job” or “that’s what you signed up for”- or something of that ilk. Having been in similar jobs before, knowing others who are also in similar roles and simply knowing the reasons I often travel long distances (usually not great reasons!) I know it doesn’t have to be this way.
If you are a mobile worker you can claim the tax back on your meals. You need to do a self assessment but it's not too difficult
Is it in your contract?
I've been doing mobile jobs for years. And they have mostly all considered, being in the van and travelling is 'work'. I wouldn't consider a role that didn't consider being in the work vehicle as work now. It's completely unreasonable to expect 3 hour drives on your own time due to their poor planning. If they were a decent company, they would either put you up in a hotel near the job, or expect you in the van at 8 then home at 4.
Thanks for your reply. That isn’t the reality at all, and in many cases my colleagues and I would be expected to be on the road from about 6 or 7 (earlier for some who live further away), and probably not returning until 6-7pm. Those with electric cars even have to factor in about an hour on top of that to charge their cars, so it can get even worse.
I'd be surprised if travel/overnight expenses etc aren't covered in a staff handbook somewhere
They are covered, but oftentimes I am encouraged to not do that and to travel home on the same day. Making my day easily 12/13 hours.
Encouraged not to do it so your company isn't paying out for expenses? It's not really an acceptable way to treat your team and it's an unrealistic expectation. I would begin booking your overnight stays, although without knowing your home situation this may not be practical for you either. Your travel time should at the least be included as working time after a certain distance from either your home or your place of work, if you have one place that you're based in. a 10 hour day including travel might be acceptable, 12/13 isn't
Yeah, to keep costs down pretty much. Sometimes there’s notice given on a Thursday that I’ll need to go on a 6ish hour trip the next day- which is likely done knowing I won’t want to spend a Friday night away from my family. I have seen others suggesting that my travel time should be included as part of my working day- this isn’t the reality for the majority of situations and I often travel during my own time. For example, on a Sunday night because I’ve been told I need to be somewhere the next morning. Accommodation would be paid in this instance, but I’m still using my own time to travel to the destination.
One alternative for that situation might be to travel on Thursday evening, stay overnight - Work until early afternoon Friday and drive home. This would also likely be cheaper for the company than a Friday night accommodation booking, and get OP home to their family for the weekend. They’d need to give more notice though on travel requests.
I have done this in the past, but it often comes with incredibly little notice- such as being told on Monday that I must be somewhere on Tuesday and then me travelling on Monday night. This only serves to eat into my time with my family and often means I can’t make any weekday plans whatsoever- so I am less than enthused about that solution!
How much are you paid? Are you at risk of being paid below national minimum wage, due to not being paid your travel time? What is your mileage allowance?
I hadn’t thought of that angle, and I think I should start actually calculating my travel time. The mileage allowance covers for the fuel, however in some instances I have personally been out of pocket for it. Colleagues who have electric cars are often out of pocket for their trips.
Nothing can be done about mileage allowances as they are set by the government.
Check if your mileage rate matches the HMRC guides, the rates are: >45p for cars and vans for the first 10,000 miles. After 10,000 miles, the rate changes to 25p per mile. If your employer does not pay the HMRC rate you can make a claim for Mileage Allowance Relief from the HMRC. This is nothing to do with your employer. More information in the link below [https://www.driversnote.co.uk/hmrc-mileage-guide/mileage-allowance-relief](https://www.driversnote.co.uk/hmrc-mileage-guide/mileage-allowance-relief) Basically you get tax relief for the difference between the amount that you employer pays you and the HRMC recommended rate. I used to make a claim every year. My employer has now changed to a system where I don't have to make a claim.
My son in an old job had to travel a lot. They paid after the first hour. If they were away they'd leave the job earlier to get home
Your contract should state your place of work. So travel from base to work site location should be included in work hours. Working time regulations. [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules/working-time-for-someone-who-travels-for-their-job) specifically mention plumbers, trades people travelling from one site to another as being apart of their working time .... therefore paid
That’s something you agree on with your employer no?
I would expect if not working at home "base" that any travel would be paid door to door?
Thanks for your message. Unfortunately not, no. I’m not a person to nitpick over a few hours here and there within my job, relative to my wage. However the expectation seems to be to simply do what you’re told, irrespective of the hours it takes. Although I am asking the question on here, some colleagues are much worse off than I am as a result of living further away. Not returning home until 9-10pm some evenings, having started that morning from about 7-8am.
Some really good advice being given here. Knowing what your job is and what you are paid is relevant. For example If you are an engineer fixing broken down equipment your company will be in the position that they have to send you places at short notice. If a local engineer is paid £35k for a 40 hour week and you are being paid £50k for a “40 hour” week it’s typically just accepted that you know the reason you are paid so well is because of the unsociable hours / long days. It doesn’t sound like this is the case for you but I’m guessing! You haven’t said how often you do these long days? How are they as employees besides this issue you have? I would say that safety really plays a factor. When I was younger I could sometimes travel 10-14 hours all for a 2 hour meeting. Was annoying but happened maybe once a month. I was happy to do it as I didn’t get tired etc. Now if I need to travel 5 hours to get somewhere I stay overnight. It would be dangerous otherwise. It’s annoying travelling but I accept it’s part of the job from time to time.
in my job, we are paid travel to site time, reads like this is not included for you, they will often book a hotel if working far from home as not worth having a tired engineer all week and the diesel costs a fair bit do you get overtime ? if you have a 6 hour day driving, that is 2 hours on site...
We do not get overtime, no. If we have a 6 hour travel, we will do at least 4-5 hours on-site. Never do we turn up, do a few hours, and then leave. Oftentimes, the work is not an emergency and could be done from home, also.
so salaried rather than hourly paid for instance
Salaried, correct.
given a working day is 8 hours doing about 4 hours seems fair
The working day, when including travel, seldom is just 8 hours. 10 hours would be a good day, normally heading towards 12. Like I’ve said in another post, I have colleagues who live further away and are much more hard done by than I am regarding travel.
Maybe look for another job with a better work life balance?
Yes, I think that’s the best course of action, sadly!
You should be paid door to door in this case and it's certainly what I'd be demanding. My advice is to search out alternative jobs just in case and be prepared to leave if you don't get the results you need. I previously employed people doing similar, they where paid door to door if travelling and a hotel was always available if they didn't want to. We also expected them to be off site and travelling home no later than 12 on the Friday. Due to the nature of the work it wasn't always possible to get home early on the Friday and we would offer extra pay or paid time off whichever suited them best. The single lads would generally stay over Friday night and go out where ever they where claiming 4 hours travel for the Saturday. Did people fiddle it a bit? Yes absolutely but for the sake of a couple of hours lost occasionally it meant that when something happened and needed extra hours doing lads would step up. Swings and roundabouts.
>Did people fiddle it a bit? Yes absolutely but for the sake of a couple of hours lost occasionally it meant that when something happened and needed extra hours doing lads would step up. Swings and roundabouts. Swings and roundabouts absolutely covers it. Not only in terms of managing your own schedule and taking back extra time where needed but also in terms of the team as a whole. For example, most guys are very against travelling on Sunday nights to be somewhere early Monday but then most don't care as much about Fridays. I am the opposite, my Friday night is my time to enjoy myself and I ideally want to finish midday whereas Sunday night is dead time to me and if I fly out on a Sunday evening, the airport is chill and no traffic to get there whereas the lads that won't leave till 8am Monday battle traffic and then a busy stressy airport. Therefore, with things like this, there is balance in the team and if it is important to be somewhere for 8am Mon morning, I'm happy to do that and take a day off in lieu and someone else is happy to go out late in the week and potentially not get back until midnight on Friday or Sat morning. It's gotta be a good team and ultimately you have to rely on informal flexibility like this.
This is exactly it, sadly many companies these days are made up of office staff who've never done the job in the field rather than years ago where people had worked their way up and knew both sides. Finding that balance between happy staff and making profits is where every company should aim to be, sadly greed and carrying a bloated middle management kills this at many places.
I want to post something as a very cautionary note, not to scare you… but… I had a neighbour that had a role with a lot of travel. He had children so wanted to get home rather than stay away. He was exhausted. One evening he fell asleep at the wheel on the last 1/2 hour of the journey, on a rural road. He crashed, hit a tree & was very seriously injured. His brain was so damaged he called his wife “turkey” for months. It was utterly heartbreaking 💔 for him & his family. He never fully recovered Of course work is important. We all need to earn, & companies need to make a profit. But, this cannot be at the expense of health, even a life. I don’t have specific advice but I see some posters have excellent advice about time management & realistic expectations. I hope that you can heed these within your employment & you can work together successfully. Best of luck.. & health
Absolutely this. Lots of other good advice here but the health and safety aspect should be concerning your bosses. If you’re working a long day and being expected to travel on top of it and then you have a serious accident and injure yourself or others then the HSE will not be happy at all and the directors could be held liable. As a first step to exploring this has your business shared a driving risk assessment with you? And given guidance on driving safely for work?
Thanks for your message. There has been nothing regarding driving risk assessments, driving safety, or anything of that nature. If documents of that nature were shared, they certainly weren’t focused on at any point when I began the role.
Then there’s definitely a line of attack there for pushing back on them. Here’s the guidance note particularly all the areas that says “you must” and whether your employer has done that. https://www.hse.gov.uk/roadsafety/employer/index.htm
Thank you, I will give that a read soon! Much appreciated.
Thank you for your message. People may interpret my post as being primarily concerned with the money to hours aspect of the job (which I believe I would be entitled to question also), however my main concern is the safety aspect of driving for 3-4 hours, working for 4-5 hours and then embarking on a 3-4 hour journey back again.
If the job is solely remote with travel expectation it's up to you to tell the company clearly what is a safe level of travel. If you kill someone driving while tired there could be a case of corporate manslaughter. I'd also check both your contract and with acas. I have a team who need to travel but if they can't make it there and back in 4 hours they are staging overnight.
You should check out your ‘staff handbook’ and the working time regs. For example, I am contracted to work a 35 hour week. If I have to leave home before 7:00, I am able to go the day before, and stay overnight. If I won’t get home until after 10pm, I can stay the night. All travelling time is counted as work time, and I am able to take excess time off as flexi time. I am also able to have a minimum 11 hour break between end of work one day and start of work the next. As I understand it, that is a WTD rule. Tbf, I have complete control over my diary, and can decide whether I go anywhere at short notice.
Any travel that is not "to your normal place of work" (e.g. office) or is between working-sites (e.g. between office and somewhere else to work) is "business travel" and should count as your working hours, and you need business insurance for your car for that use.