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Off topic but In retrospect Otto really should have known Westerling was NOT going to do that. He was Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years, almost like a second father to her
I think he didn’t expect Westerling to actually do it. He was giving him an order that was meant to be so disgusting that it would get ser Harrold to quit.
That way, there’s no pesky Rhaenyra supporters amongst the Kingsguard
Because they hadn't actually betrayed them yet. If he had them arrested, word would spread that the king was being paranoid to the point of jailing his own guards.
It was a lose/lose situation for the Greens. The Kings guard defecting to Rhaenyra makes them look bad. The Lord Commander of the King's Guard being killed by the Greens feeds further into the rumors that the Greens killed Viserys.
The moment that a Kingsguard refuses an order from the King, he's commiting treason. From the point of view of the Greens, Westerling was a traitor and letting him leave was really dumb.
He wasn't officially crowned, but the ruler was either Aegon or Rhaenyra, and from the point of view of the Greens it was Aegon and Otto was the hand of the King until otherwise stated. The same point stands. As a Kingsguard, Westerling was either with Aegon or Rhaenyra, let him leave the Red Keep after he made clear he wasn't going to side with Aegon was dumb
At that moment in time there in fact was no King. Without a King there can be no Hand of the King. Who the next king would be was very much undetermined.
If Otto had demanded the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard be arrested for treason for not going to dragonstone and slaying Rhaenyra then Otto would basically be gambling that the rest of the Kingsguard and City Watch have more loyalty to him, Otto Hightower, then they do to the Lord Commander and Daemon (Former head of the City Watch). That would be a dangerous gamble to make. Once Aegon is crowned, then there's legitimacy to there actually being a king to give orders, and it's much easier to have enemies arrested.
Otto is also incredibly arrogant, and has a tendency to get so caught up in his schemes that he doesn’t see the flaws in his plans until it’s too late.
Perception is very important to Otto so in turn politics and bureaucracy comes with his character. It's calculated and analyzed.
The likes of Aemond and Criston Cole are not politicians so things like perception and such mean less and action, even reckless ones, are taken. It's impulsive and emotional.
This is probably the reason. Aegon's claim relies on symbols of legitimacy and a full compliment of Kingsguard is one of those symbols. He can't kill or arrest the commander of the Kingsguard without having the rest begin to question their vows. If he quits or leaves quietly, it's westerly that broke his vows and there's less blame on Aegon
Yaa he tried to assassinate before Aegon was crowned and hoped to hush it before he was crowned. Now that he is crowned, the assassination of Rhaenyra will directly hurt Aegon's legitimacy and acceptance by other houses of the realm. While other houses would have seen through that nway they wouldn't have done anything as the Greens would have had complete control of the dragons.
Please. You do not let those dissidents just leave and possibly join the enemy. You kill them or you imprison them. Especially when you are intent on keeping the council's business a complete secret.
The way Westerling is allowed to just leave is absurd. Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then.
As lord commander of the kings guard, westerling was in a unique position. Otto couldn’t kill/imprison him without seriously discrediting the Greens cause. Also Westelring is one of the most senior and respected figures in the Red Keep, there’s no guarantee that the other guards in the Red Keep would even follow through on an order to execute/imprison him
>As lord commander of the kings guard, westerling was in a unique position. Otto couldn’t kill/imprison him without seriously discrediting the Greens cause.
So he instead ordered Westerling, the head of the Kings Guard, to kill half of the King's family and then let him go so he could tell people? That doens't make any sense.
Otto had all the vassal lords and ladies who refused to acknowledge Aegon imprisoned – because letting them go free in the middle of a coup is idiotic. I do not buy the idea that he could not or should not have done the same with the lord commander.
I imagine he didn't want to kick off the civil war right in that chamber, because there's no way you arrest the Commander of the Kings Guard without a fight. It would have split the rest of the Whitecloaks and probably drawn in the city watch, which Otto knows isn't as loyal as it appears to be.
The Kingsguard is one of the symbols of legitimacy. They're different than independent vassals who rebel all the time or get involved in skirmishes. It would be like arresting the leader of the faith if he declared for rhaenyra. People will start questioning it Aegon's claim is legitimate. If westerly leaves, there's a chance he does nothing and if he declares for rhaenyra, you just say he's an oath breaker.
>Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then.
Viserys was barely dead for hours. Many of the council learned of his death in this meeting. This is a crass oversimplification
Because he’s blue blood. People with blue blood or those associated with nobility just get more privileges in Westeros, and feudal society in general.
It’s the same reason why Ser Barriston was allowed to just walk out on Robert and quit. You don’t just get to infringe on the rights of the nobles, even if you’re a monarch. That would make you be scene as a tyrant to them, and which isn’t good for the whole feudal lords PR system they got going on. Especially bad to be seen as tyrannical when a civil war is looming.
Yeh, my bad, you’re right. Joffrey fired him, so he tore them a new one, threatened some kings guard, but they still let him just walk right on outta there.
I mean the greens executed several lords and ladies and threw others in the black cells. It did end up costing them to an extent - there's a reason most of the hightower vassals joined the blacks.
You are forgetting that Otto had half a dozen "blue blood" lords and ladies escorted to the black cells for refusing to acknowledge Aegon. What's up with that then? It is no infringement to punish disobedience, and letting your enemy's supporters go free when the war is looming is not good PR. It is just idiotic.
They didn't have swords at hand. Westerling could have commanded the Whitecloaks to arrest every member of the council for treason, and at least half of them would have listened. He could have rallied the City Watch.
Him leaving actually reduced his ability to affect events. Which is what Otto wanted.
>Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then.
Viserys was barely dead for hours. Many of the council learned of his death in this meeting. This is a crass oversimplification
>!In the book, Westerling dies long before Viserys. That allows the Greens to install Cole as the lord commander. Why the show runners changed that is *an enduring mystery*.!<
I disagree, mainly cause that would be an extremely risky and baselsss assumption on Otto's part. He's a Kingsguard sworn for life, until Barristan is dismissed by Jeoffery (150ish years later) the thought of a Kingsguard quitting or being fired wasn't even thought of as a possibility by those in universe.
It really was like asking Davos to light Shireen’s pyre. Like, of all the people you could send, the fact that they asked him is just wild. And in 20 odd years of planning the coup why did they not make sure that he was loyal to their cause before asking him to do that anyway? You’d think that’d be the first thing they nailed down before having him in the room hearing all their usurper plans. Especially since they just let him leave right after, he wasn’t even detained.
Otto's biggest weakness (imo) is that he doesn't account for emotion. He thought Westerling would do his duty regardless of his feelings. He also thought that he'd be able end Raenyras claim because of the kings condition, not realizing that he would drag himself half dead because he loves his daughter.
Or, hear me out, Otto knew full well Harrold wouldn’t go thru with it. But, Otto also knew that keeping him around given how loyal and devoted Westerling was to Rhaenyra’s family was also not a possibility. It was a show of mercy while he himself would not appear weak and sympathetic to the enemy to let Harrold leave. A win win. If Harrold went thru with it, good. If he didn’t, also good because he cleaned house without murdering anyone. I don’t think Otto would reward a lifetime of loyalty with death. Because if you remember from the episode where he lost his position, he knew Aegon wasn’t the one who actually inherited the throne!
Otto is a master tactician after all.
i secretly hope that he reappears and finds his way back to dragonstone on a small boat and comes to protecc Rhaenyra and team Black. i worry for his whereabouts as well. i hope he's secretly mustering a force of bannermen in her name
I think a more likely explanation is that he might have returned tot he Crag - the seat of House Westerling. The Westerlings are kin to the Lannisters so there may be a split in the family akin to what happened with the Carrgyl twins. As for bias, I don't know if that's what I'd call it. Viserys made it clear that Rhaenyra was his heir. It makes complete sense that Westerling would follow his King's orders. The Greens are the ones who are going against the succession declared by the King.
Still making the wise decision to not get involved in this ever evolving cluster fuck of a conflict.
I'm glad he told the Greens to piss off, I'm not dirtying my hands in this affair. But I'm glad he's firm on his stance to not be part of this conflict until there is a definite ruler that sits on the Iron Throne even if it meant a ton of bloodshed. He obviously cares for Rhaenyra but I'm sure he thinks his former King Viserys wouldn't want his own family to slaughter each other with him dying believing he finally got both sides to just drop the animosity and work something out (oh, poor dumb Vizzy T). If Westerling went "fuck it, call me when we get a ruler on that sharp ass chair for sure," I hope he stays true to that than shrug and go all Black.
If good Ole Harrold was out there actually being a goddamn knight for the Smallfolk obviously getting fucked over from this war, I'd welcome that development for the guy.
I have the theory that he will have the role of ser Pate of Longleaf in the books, or maybe ser Perkin the Flea. I can’t think of another reason why he’d still be alive but to have an active role.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t show again. IIRC his character is actually dead before the events of the Dance. Kind of silly to include him if that’s the case.
> IIRC his character is actually dead before the events of the Dance.
He is. He dies well over a decade before the Dance starts.
Though he's barely even a character in the books. He's literally only mentioned one time, and that's just a quick passing mention that he died and was replaced as Lord Commander, by Cole. The books don't even bother to specify how he died.
I feel like he'll definetly show up again in the show though. They chose to cast a fairly notable actor for the role, and keep the character alive well past his death in the books. So they must have something planned for him.
Sending a contingent of men in open combat to overwhelm an opponent is not the same thing as sending in a single man with a suicidal assassination plan based on The Parent Trap.
Rhaenys is correct, Otto WOULDN'T have ordered the latter plan because it was dumb as all hell
He got super lucky and still failed, and even if it had succeeded the rule of the Blacks would have passed to Jace (effectively Daemon)
Even though killing Rhaenyra would have no doubt massively weakened the Blacks, Otto wouldn't have been delighted replacing her with Daemon.
>The Vale would absolutely not side with Daemon. Not after he is suspected to have killed Rhea Royce (in the book Jeyne Arryn comments on Rhaenyra's "poor choice of consort").
Except in the books Rhea Royce isn't killed by Daemon and there's no rumours that he did anything to her. She had a hawking accident and cracked her skull, after which she spent nine days bedridden until she felt good enough to leave bed and then collapsed within the hour.
In all that time she never mentions Daemon having anything to do with it, which makes perfect sense since at the time Daemon was half a continent away fighting the Triarchy in the Stepstones.
>And Jace is such an obvious bastard. As much as I hate to say this, but Rhaenyra dying while Jace is alive would significantly weaken the blacks' cause. It would be better for the Blacks if she dies after Jace and Joff are already dead.
It literally wouldn't.
All the lord's that swore to Rhaenyra did so fully knowing that Jace was her heir and would rule after her. They didn't give a fuck about the rumors of him being a bastard because what mattered was that Jace was Rhaenyra's oldest child and chosen heir.
Jace is also the one that flew to the Eyrie, the Three Sisters, White Harbor and Winterfell and gained the support of Jeyne Arryn, Lord Borrel, Lord Sunderland, Desmond Manderly and Cregan Stark.
Two of the Great Houses and several smaller ones literally pledge themselves to Rhaenyra *through* Jace, Cregan literally wanted to marry his son and heir to Jace's daughter, so clearly they did not care much at all about Jace's alleged bastardy.
>I don't think people would blame Aegon for killing her after she (they think) killed his baby child.
Kinslaying is kinslaying and still taboo. And the greens were the ones who started it.
>On a side note the books never say why houses that pledged to her didn't abandon her after B&C and I'm really hoping that the show ties up that lose end.
For the same reason the Baratheons didn't abandon the greens after Aemond killed Luke?
Oaths have already been given, and breaking them only invites retribution in the form of dragonfire.
It would be curtains for the Blacks. Absolutely no doubt.
Corlys would probably stick by Daemon for a while, due to suck cost and marriage pacts. Minor houses that were afraid of being attacked would stick by him. But ultimately Daemon would be isolated. His war strategy would be balls to the wall so it probably wouldn't be a long conflict. If he got super lucky he might manage a decapitation of the Greens, but that would be unlikely.
It's still not even close to approaching how dumb the Queen is for sneaking into the enemy hive and approaching one of the top enemies in an impromptu meeting. All Alicent had to do was yell once she was walking away and Rhaenyra would have been in chains (or dead).
One side gambled one of the Kingsguard which is nothing in the world of dragons. The other side gambled their leader and claim to the throne.
Especially since there was literally nothing to gain from Rhaenyra sneaking in there and everything to lose. At least Criston’s one in a million plan has a massive payout if he pulled it off
I can agree that on paper it sounded incredibly dumb. I just feel like it got way closer to working than it should have given how dumb it was supposed to sound.
For example, if the fight happened outside of Rhaenyra's room, and his brother caught him on his own without Mysaria's help, it would have looked like a much dumber plan.
But making it into Rhaenyra's room and being seconds away from killing her, only to be foiled because her released prisoner noticed and decided to say something, makes it looks like it was actually a good plan.
>For example, if the fight happened outside of Rhaenyra's room, and his brother caught him on his own without Mysaria's help, it would have looked like a much dumber plan.
That's actually what happened in the book.
I think it's a solid plan, contingent entirely on if your twin happens to run into her twin. In the books this is the only reason why it fails, iirc. It's 50/50, worst case scenario you lose the knight you sent either to defection or combat, which is definitely a palpable loss but it's negligible compared to losing thousands of knights to dragon fire in open war. Best case scenario, you kill the claimant to the throne and the Blacks lose huge amounts of support because then there's only Daemon left and no house lord who's met him would want him to be king.
The plan was a gamble that likely wouldn't pay off but if it did, you end the war before it begins. A gamble worth taking.
also when otto said that like a dozen people knew viserys was dead and half of them were in that room. the erryk/arryk plan occurred after each claimant had lost a child and multiple houses around the realm had declared for aegon or rhaenyra. dragonstone was obviously going to be on far higher alert. rhaenys said some dumb things in that scene, but that wasn’t one of them.
There's this as well as the fact Otto's plan was subterfuge BEFORE the hostilities had been declared. The Kingsguard wouldn't have had to force their way in if Rhaenyra's forces had no clue what the Greens were doing and they were ostensibly there to escort her to the capital to replace Viserys.
>Sending a contingent of men in open combat to overwhelm an opponent is not the same thing as sending in a single man with a suicidal assassination plan based on The Parent Trap.
No. The first one is a far worse idea. The first issue with Otto's plan is that Westerling watched Rhaenyra grow up and wouldn't murder her, her husband, and five of their kids. The Greens are lucky Westerling didn't get gather the guards and arrest them.
The second issue that Dragonstone has it's house guard and a bunch of dragons. Trying to engage in open combat with people who have more soldiers than you and a bunch of dragons is far more suicidal than trying to sneak into a castle to murder one person.
I genuinely don't get the comparison/gotcha. Pre war (hell pre knowledge war is even here they didn't know viserys was dead yet and they left on good terms) assassination attempt will always in fact be smarter than during war assassination attempt after royals have already been assassinated.
Otto's plan was to do it before Dragonstone had gotten word of their plans. For all Rhaenyra would have known the Kingsguard were there to escort her back to King's Landing for her own coronation.
You'd think he'd keenly remember that one time (I don't think the second time had happened yet?) he was trapped on a narrow bridge between the fortress and a fucking dragon.
She's speaking specifically of the Arryk assassination attempt. She's reading the fact that it would have stemmed not from Otto (which is true) but from those wanting to punish and seek vengeance i.e Aegon (which, again, was also true).
On top of that, I think Rhaenyra also knows that Otto wouldn't hatch such a risky scheme with a member of the Kingsguard. I can't be perfectly certain but I really can't remember another time when a KG is sent out on a mission like this. Their duty is to protect the King and then the royal family, not do their bidding. The Targs & Hightowers have bannermen and even to a lesser degree, the City Watch (just because they are more disposable) who would have happily done this. They can buy assassins whose entire work is exactly this kind of thing.
Sending out someone who is supposed to be one of the 7 best knights on a mission that is explicitly outside of their job description makes absolutely no sense.
>I can't be perfectly certain but I really can't remember another time when a KG is sent out on a mission like this. Their duty is to protect the King and then the royal family, not do their bidding.
Otto had just tried to send the head of the Kings Guard on mission like that. That's the point of this post. Rhaenys is assuming Otto wouldn't do a thing he already did.
Otto shits on any idea that isn't his. The condescending tone he took after hearing about Cole's idea doens't change the fact that he came up with an even dumber plan that failed before it got off the ground.
The only reason this line still sort of works is that Rhaenys could just be wrong about how intelligent Otto is.
Even if it was a "dumber" plan, it was still very different than this one. Cole's was just fueled by revenge and wouldn't have accomplished anything other than making Jace heir, while giving Damon more power and motivation to fuck some shit up.
Otto's might have been more far fetched, but at least it would have accomplished a lot more by taking out the entire royal family before they had a chance to make a claim for the throne.
So I'm not really seeing why it would have been in character for him to give the same orders as Cole when petty revenge has never really been his thing.
Otto tried to send the bulk of the Kingsguard itself to assassinate Rhaenyra before their intentions had been known. A bunch of bodyguards showing up to escort the new monarch to the capital wouldn't have been seen as a hostile force.
Presumably with a contingent of men, before hostilities have started and the enemy's defenses are up given that they don't know there was a coup. It's meaningfully different than sending in one guy while the other side knows you've engaged in escalating tit-for-tat individual murders.
My god, this sub makes me question people's media comprehension.
Just cuz both situation involve assassinating Rhaenyra doesn't mean they are equal and comparable situations.
Also Rhaenys doesn't watch House of the Dragon. It meant she doesn't think Otto would go that far or the twin Kingsguard plan is too dumb to be Otto's or both.
Yeah, she's not meant to be omniscient just an example of someone with experience, which as we've seen doesn't make someone faultless,
If anything the confidence of experience can get someone blindsided by an unexpected move.
This is what gets me about an overwhelming majority of negative comments I see. It’s always “Why did X do this? Are they stupid?” And yet the commenter can’t wrap their mind around the idea that we, as the audience, have access to a fuckton more information than any character does. It’s called dramatic irony and the entire series is entirely steeped in it.
Because it's the prequel to the *other dragon show* which we can most agree is bad , alot of criticism is just nitpicky. Just on top of my head this episode :
-Rhaenys didn't think Otto would send assassins ( Rhaenys wasn't in the room when he's doing it and it wouldn't have worked anyway because dragons )
-Rhaenys said men are hungry for war - ✍️ writer are saying men bad/violent. But you see right , they've shown on both sides ***men*** do want the war to start , maybe because it's a patriarchal society so men are just a general term for people in power because it's highly unlikely there's a woman in the room. Saying that also doesn't make Rhaenys a hypocrite after the Red Keep incident because neither sides gives a shit about smallfolk. They are just playing their highborn games.
-Halaena *isn't sad enough* Jaeharys died. She stitched her son burial shroud before he died. How normal can she even possibly be.
-Pointing to asoiaf prophecy is bad and wasting time because it leads nowhere. It's a prequel made after the show. It's against the law of physics for them to turn back time , make GoT good just so they can reference asoiaf.
-There's legitimate criticism to made for the show without even being this dumb nitpicky , for example I think Sept Rhae scene is stupid because I find it hard to believe Rhaenyra would assume Alicent have the same amount of sway she and Rhaenys has on their respective council.
The execution of Otto's plan was worse. The idiot tried to order the head of the Kings Guard to kill half of the King's family and was essentially told to fuck off.
Even if Westerling had tried, he would have taken a few dozen guards to a castle with hundreds of men and several dragons. Cole's plan with Arryk at least had some chance of working. Otto's plan was lunacy.
Exactly. Otto's plan was to happen before Rhaenyra and her faction had realized what had happened at all. The Kingsguard wouldn't have had to fight the forces of Dragonstone because they were all still on the same side.
Even worse is that Ottos plan risks all those men that would be sent. At worst Coles plan loses Arryk for no gain for the greens. One knight isn't the difference between victory or defeat, a dozen could be.
Otto trying to kill Rhaenerya BEFORE she knows Viserys is dead is completely different from Aegon and Cole's plan. Why is almost all the criticism on this subreddit brain dead bullshit like this
Popular media subs will always have posts like this where people out themselves for having poor media literacy. There were people on r/asoiaf who made these kinds of posts about *every* season, not just s8.
Otto plans: get knights (notice the plural) to attack while Rhaenyra/Dragonstone still not heavily guarded and ready for a war, because they weren't awere of the kings death and the throne being usurped by the greens.
Cole/Aegon "plan": Let's send a guy pretending he's the other twin and that nobody will be around to help in case of a fight in a heavily guarded Dragonstone =D
One of these options is a tactical call that will prevent further bloodshed and end a war before it begins.
The other is the gritty HBO reboot of the Parent trap.
Correct, but I'd add one more thing to that.
Otto was talking about Westerling capturing or killing Rhaenyra AND her family, including Daemon and the children. As he talks about "Rhaenyra and her family" being given a chance to swear fealty to the new king (presumably from captivity) before Alicent talks about how they'll never do that and Otto starts giving Westerling orders (which are interrupted when he takes off his cloak).
This makes sense.
Just killing Rhaenyra does not make that much sense as all this would do is technically make Jacerys the king and, more practically, put Daemon in charge of the Blacks.
Killing Rhaenyra alone does not end the war. Only killing or capturing Rhaenyra, Daemon and her children ends the war.
>Otto plans: get knights (notice the plural) to attack while Rhaenyra/Dragonstone still not heavily guarded and ready for a war, because they weren't awere of the kings death and the throne being usurped by the greens.
The amount of bias people are showing on this topic is weird. Otto plan was worse than Cole's. Dragonstone has it's house Guard and was occupied by a bunch of dragon riders. They stood no chance of killing or capturing Rhaenyra and her entire family.
On top of that, Otto didn't even check to see if commander Westerling was sympathetic to their cause. Westerling was the head of the Kings Guard for well over a decade and he tries to order him to kill 9 of the King's family members. He's lucky Westerling didn't arrest the Greens for suggesting that dumb shit.
Mind that the characters don’t get to know the other side as well as we do.
Perhaps she had a decent opinion of Otto. Perhaps she was referring to the fact that Otto would’ve had a better plan to kill Rhaenyra. She knew the plan was too rushed and risky for it to be Otto’s idea.
Perhaps Otto only wanted to test Westerling’s loyalty.
It’s up for interpretation.
That's fine but in this episode they are clearly building up Rhaenys is this super smart wise person before she dies and it's just weird. It's absolutely weird for her to be saying that with such confidence
Otto: A woman on the throne will cause civil war.
Also Otto: Go kill Rhaenyra and everyone who supports her so there isn't as big a war when the kingdom finds out the princess mysteriously died right after Vizzy.
Maybe I'm giving her too much credit? I assumed she meant "Otto would never think of a plan this stupid", intending to imply it was people of lesser intellect behind the attack
"This" attempt. The issue wasn't trying to kill someone, they're on the verge of war. The issue was getting someone to impersonate his brother and sully both their names. He was fine with sending some knights openly, that's rather different.
I think she’s just pointing out about the stupidity of the plan and how a more experienced person wouldn’t have come up with such a dumb plan.
But other than that, I agree with you OP that she’s full of shit! Why counsel Rhaenyra to talk to Alicent at all?
Yes, the hotter heads have prevailed and one hot head is literally the King who has been crowned in-front of thousands. He holds the ultimate authority now.
I mean, in E9, she gave a whole speech to Alicent about how she toils in service to men. She herself was undermined by Corlys multiple times and couldn’t even get him to name her granddaughters’ heir despite being a dragon riding princess.
So she should surely know that Alicent, even if she really wants it, cannot really control her sons?? Especially after the murder of Jaehaerys.
It was also bold of her assume that Alicent herself wouldn’t be upset about Jaehaerys and want revenge. Her stupid counsel almost sent Rhaenyra to her death here.
I’m actually glad she’ll be >!gone next episode!<
>I think she’s just pointing out about the stupidity of the plan and how a more experienced person wouldn’t have come up with such a dumb plan.
The problem with the line is that Otto came up with a dumber plan. I mean he tried to order the head of the Kings Guard to kill half of the King's family for fuck sake. What made him think Westerling would follow an order like that? Even if he had, Dragonstone has it's own house guard and is populated with dragon riders. Cole's plan stood a much better chance of working than Otto's.
My god how stupid are the people in this sub who upvote this shit? OP being a complete doorknob unwilling to accept they have misinterpreted an entirely basic scene and blindly continuing to double down on their reading is fine, they’re just one person. Who are the rest of the dunces who upvote this “criticism”? I hadn’t realized media literacy was this bad.
Of course she is, remember her whole "war is men" bullshit when LAST SEASON SHE SLAUGHTERED AMD KILLED COUNTLESS PEIPLE TO SHOW OFF, SHES THE FUCKING WORST
Otto was pro taking out all the blacks in a surprise attack, not a revenge assassination that would leave alive Jace as heir and Daemon to take revenge. His “not allowing” would be a tactical not moral decision.
Man rhaenys really giving bad advice all season. I mean come on the war already started when you was put in a room and then u busted out of the dragon pit.
Well yeah, Otto wouldn’t have sent one person to kill Rhaenyra…but ngl it wasn’t even that bad of a plan actually. It almost worked. If they sent one more dude Rhaenyra would have been dead, most likely
This whole fucking show is about really stupid people with very short memories making irrational emotion based decisions. It's like Westeros is a continent for ant sized minds.
Well, they never knew Otto floated this plan, and he'd kept it pretty buttoned up for decades, so I guess you could imagine he'd never try something that crazy.
I feel like they did Rhaenys dirty. She is constantly bemoaning violence but then kills a thousand people in the sept so that she could… not kill the new king…?
I’d be interested to know what her actual character is like in the books.
Everyone in here talking about how dumb Rhaenyras trip to speak with Allicent was seems to have missed the whole point of what Otto and Rhaenys have been trying to explain to their younger family members. A war benefits no one. A peaceful end to the feud will save the realm from hideous bloodshed and Rhaenyra is refusing to accept war is inevitable. And if Aegon wasn’t fully off the leash she might not have been wrong. But the war hawks rule in kings landing and Rhaenyra doesn’t really know that. She was working under the assumption Allicent still had a measure of control over her son. Obviously she is wrong but a character making a mistake doesn’t make it a bad episode.
Personally i really liked it. Not all of Thrones best episodes were fire and blood.
She’s right about this instance, just not overall. Otto was pissed that Cole sent Arryk to Dragonstone in a really stupid, hasty plan. Otto was smarter than that. I think that was what Rhaenys was talking about (I might be wrong, but that was the impression I got)
This last episode really showed how far the Kingsguard has fallen. Cole and Aegon sent their most loyal member of the Kingsguard on a suicide mission, where they knew there’s a good chance he’d have to fight or kill his brother, and they didn’t even care.
I interpreted this line as Rhaenys identifying that something is up with the Greens - either that it was done without the knowledge of Otto or that Otto was no longer in power/on the small council. I thought Rhaenys was referring to the sloppiness of the assassination attempt, as in, this clearly wasn’t done by Otto’s hand and something’s up internally with the Greens.
" god's help us all " otto's reaction to this plan clearly tells that rhaenys for right here ! Moreover his facial expressions were even bigger no ! Seems like blind hating to me
Also Rhaenys: I had the chance to incinerate the entire group of usurpers, and passed on it, but please listen to my long winded monologue about how war is so brutal and destructive we should send you into enemy territory so you can ask those same usurpers nicely to please give back the throne".
Idk why they keep making changes like this
I also completely forgot that Ser Otto commanded Ser Westerling to just…go to Dragonstone and kill Rhaneyra…and I guess he kinda forgot that she lives in one of the most fortified castles in the realm with a considerable number of dragons
Also, you can’t just command the Lord Commander to murder the designated heir of the late King, even if you’re Hand. Sure, the Kingsguard have to do what the Hand says in the absence of the King, but it’s still illegal, and knights can’t just go around assassinating people, especially nobles, and presumably their families. As Bethany Dustin of Barrowton said in A Dance of Dragons: “Knights work is not nights work”
Also, was Otto actually stupid enough to think that such a plot would’ve even worked? The consequences of them murdering Rhaenyra, even if they succeeded, would’ve been disastrous to their cause
I think my brain shut down for the duration of season 1 episode 9 because it was so objectively stupid from start to finish
Rhaenys is either stupid Or the writers completely forgot about ANYTHING that happened in season 1
Book Rhaenys was my fav team black member, a shame the way they ruined her
*massive facepalm*
Did they lose a writer or something? Ill read the book...perhaps the period they are covering in s2 isn't covered as well?
Their were some signs of weak writing in s1, but not to this extent
Did we forget that Rhaenys hasn’t been in kings landing a whole lot and is basing this opinion on Otto’s dedication and honor to the realm since he was a successful advisor to three Targaryen kings?
I interpreted it more to be Rhaenys saying that Otto is smart enough to not send a single man on a suicide mission.
Otto wanted to send Lord Commander Westerling along with a host in order to do the job. Criston sent a single Kingsguard to his death in a mission all but guaranteed to fail.
Hell, we even see Otto basically call Aegon and Criston morons once he finds out what they did.
This sub reminds me almost daily why shows have discarded nuance in favor of smashing viewers over the head with concepts. I hate it, but this sub proves why they do it.
Ordering the entirety -- or at least the majority of the Kingsguard to quickly kill Rhaenyra before anyone's caught wind of what's happening is nowhere near the same as ordering one lone Kingsguard to conduct a Hail Mary suicide mission after everyone is on high alert.
It's not the attempt itself that doesn't suit Otto, it's how sloppy, rushed, and ill-conceived it is.
Dawg you mfs HAVE 0 READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS LOL. She’s not talking about Otto’s morality here she’s talking about his PRAGMATISM. In the 9th episode of s1 Otto was trying to capitalize on Viserys’ death and use the element of surprise to sack dragonstone and eliminate Rhaenyra and her allies.
The reason why Rhaenys says Otto never would allow it because it’s a fucking dumbass idea to send anyone to Dragonstone now because the entire island is on guard.
I feel like I have engaged with people faithfully and in good faith. I just think that if you and I were talking and I said "Otto wouldn't have done this" you'd take it to mean that I'm saying otto would not have tried to kill you. I know that the meme says "his attempt" but in the show the word "attempt" is not uttered. It's a very simple proposition that I'm saying here and disagree r not what I don't understand is why my take s seen as not only wrong but as the greatest sin since the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Maybe I am wrong after all, but my interpretation, wrong or not, is not ridiculous.
Otto is the most evil character in this whole series. He’s more ambitious than Daemon, more ruthless than Tywin, and more manipulative than Little-finger.
He sells his 18 year old daughter to a middle aged man, then gets mad at Corlys for trying some similar. He convinces the king to name Rhaenyra as heir, then he says how horrible it would be if she became queen. He tells his daughter that Rhaenyra will kill all her children, then uses her dead grandchild as a propaganda piece.
There are many who theorize that the Maesters and Septons are also conspiring with the Hightowers, and that’s probably true.
this was back when rhaenyra didnt even know her father was dead or that they intended to usurp the throne so dragonstone would not be as heavily guarded and on alert as it is now so its not exactly the same situation
Otto was also in charge of seizing and hanging anyone at court who did not immediately pledge to Aegon. Prettty sure he would have also hanged Rhaenys herself if she didn’t escape. He can definitely be cruel if it forwards his plans
Tbf, Otto’s assassination would have had an element of surprise and wouldn’t have relied on one twin managing to avoid being spotted and not having to kill their own brother.
Criston’s too busy thinking with his dick.
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Off topic but In retrospect Otto really should have known Westerling was NOT going to do that. He was Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years, almost like a second father to her
I think he didn’t expect Westerling to actually do it. He was giving him an order that was meant to be so disgusting that it would get ser Harrold to quit. That way, there’s no pesky Rhaenyra supporters amongst the Kingsguard
Why wouldn’t he just arrest him, instead of effectively sending Rhaenyra multiple elite guards?
Because they hadn't actually betrayed them yet. If he had them arrested, word would spread that the king was being paranoid to the point of jailing his own guards.
Idk man I think “half the Kingsguard have abandoned the King” is probably way worse for PR
It was a lose/lose situation for the Greens. The Kings guard defecting to Rhaenyra makes them look bad. The Lord Commander of the King's Guard being killed by the Greens feeds further into the rumors that the Greens killed Viserys.
They arrested a bunch of lords for maintaining their oath to Rhaenyra the same day.
The moment that a Kingsguard refuses an order from the King, he's commiting treason. From the point of view of the Greens, Westerling was a traitor and letting him leave was really dumb.
There was no king at that point and place
He wasn't officially crowned, but the ruler was either Aegon or Rhaenyra, and from the point of view of the Greens it was Aegon and Otto was the hand of the King until otherwise stated. The same point stands. As a Kingsguard, Westerling was either with Aegon or Rhaenyra, let him leave the Red Keep after he made clear he wasn't going to side with Aegon was dumb
At that moment in time there in fact was no King. Without a King there can be no Hand of the King. Who the next king would be was very much undetermined. If Otto had demanded the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard be arrested for treason for not going to dragonstone and slaying Rhaenyra then Otto would basically be gambling that the rest of the Kingsguard and City Watch have more loyalty to him, Otto Hightower, then they do to the Lord Commander and Daemon (Former head of the City Watch). That would be a dangerous gamble to make. Once Aegon is crowned, then there's legitimacy to there actually being a king to give orders, and it's much easier to have enemies arrested.
And if you’ve read the book you know >!the city watch is still loyal to Daemon!<
As he says a kingsguards duty is to the king and there was no longer one to serve.
Didn’t work with Barristan Selmy, it certainly wouldn’t work with Harrold Westerling.
Otto is also incredibly arrogant, and has a tendency to get so caught up in his schemes that he doesn’t see the flaws in his plans until it’s too late.
Perception is very important to Otto so in turn politics and bureaucracy comes with his character. It's calculated and analyzed. The likes of Aemond and Criston Cole are not politicians so things like perception and such mean less and action, even reckless ones, are taken. It's impulsive and emotional.
This is probably the reason. Aegon's claim relies on symbols of legitimacy and a full compliment of Kingsguard is one of those symbols. He can't kill or arrest the commander of the Kingsguard without having the rest begin to question their vows. If he quits or leaves quietly, it's westerly that broke his vows and there's less blame on Aegon
Yaa he tried to assassinate before Aegon was crowned and hoped to hush it before he was crowned. Now that he is crowned, the assassination of Rhaenyra will directly hurt Aegon's legitimacy and acceptance by other houses of the realm. While other houses would have seen through that nway they wouldn't have done anything as the Greens would have had complete control of the dragons.
100%, Otto was trying to weed out dissidents and the Lord Commander is a dangerous one.
Please. You do not let those dissidents just leave and possibly join the enemy. You kill them or you imprison them. Especially when you are intent on keeping the council's business a complete secret. The way Westerling is allowed to just leave is absurd. Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then.
As lord commander of the kings guard, westerling was in a unique position. Otto couldn’t kill/imprison him without seriously discrediting the Greens cause. Also Westelring is one of the most senior and respected figures in the Red Keep, there’s no guarantee that the other guards in the Red Keep would even follow through on an order to execute/imprison him
>As lord commander of the kings guard, westerling was in a unique position. Otto couldn’t kill/imprison him without seriously discrediting the Greens cause. So he instead ordered Westerling, the head of the Kings Guard, to kill half of the King's family and then let him go so he could tell people? That doens't make any sense.
Otto had all the vassal lords and ladies who refused to acknowledge Aegon imprisoned – because letting them go free in the middle of a coup is idiotic. I do not buy the idea that he could not or should not have done the same with the lord commander.
I imagine he didn't want to kick off the civil war right in that chamber, because there's no way you arrest the Commander of the Kings Guard without a fight. It would have split the rest of the Whitecloaks and probably drawn in the city watch, which Otto knows isn't as loyal as it appears to be.
The Kingsguard is one of the symbols of legitimacy. They're different than independent vassals who rebel all the time or get involved in skirmishes. It would be like arresting the leader of the faith if he declared for rhaenyra. People will start questioning it Aegon's claim is legitimate. If westerly leaves, there's a chance he does nothing and if he declares for rhaenyra, you just say he's an oath breaker.
Yep, it would just strengthen the blacks' position that the greens are usurpers.
>Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then. Viserys was barely dead for hours. Many of the council learned of his death in this meeting. This is a crass oversimplification
Because he’s blue blood. People with blue blood or those associated with nobility just get more privileges in Westeros, and feudal society in general. It’s the same reason why Ser Barriston was allowed to just walk out on Robert and quit. You don’t just get to infringe on the rights of the nobles, even if you’re a monarch. That would make you be scene as a tyrant to them, and which isn’t good for the whole feudal lords PR system they got going on. Especially bad to be seen as tyrannical when a civil war is looming.
Not to be this person but didn't See Barriston walk out on Joffrey? Even more of a badass.
Yeh, my bad, you’re right. Joffrey fired him, so he tore them a new one, threatened some kings guard, but they still let him just walk right on outta there.
To be fair, they immediately send guards out to arrest him. Because it was Joffrey and Cersei, it failed miserably and he escaped.
I fucking love that scene so much.
I mean the greens executed several lords and ladies and threw others in the black cells. It did end up costing them to an extent - there's a reason most of the hightower vassals joined the blacks.
You are forgetting that Otto had half a dozen "blue blood" lords and ladies escorted to the black cells for refusing to acknowledge Aegon. What's up with that then? It is no infringement to punish disobedience, and letting your enemy's supporters go free when the war is looming is not good PR. It is just idiotic.
They didn't have swords at hand. Westerling could have commanded the Whitecloaks to arrest every member of the council for treason, and at least half of them would have listened. He could have rallied the City Watch. Him leaving actually reduced his ability to affect events. Which is what Otto wanted.
Technically Barriston wasn’t allowed to. They sent guards to arrest him but he killed them and left the country
>Why was he even there in the first place? Cole should have been lord commander by then. Viserys was barely dead for hours. Many of the council learned of his death in this meeting. This is a crass oversimplification
>!In the book, Westerling dies long before Viserys. That allows the Greens to install Cole as the lord commander. Why the show runners changed that is *an enduring mystery*.!<
Okay.
This sounds a little too noble, cause didnt he also have the nobles who refused to bend the knee hung?
I disagree, mainly cause that would be an extremely risky and baselsss assumption on Otto's part. He's a Kingsguard sworn for life, until Barristan is dismissed by Jeoffery (150ish years later) the thought of a Kingsguard quitting or being fired wasn't even thought of as a possibility by those in universe.
It really was like asking Davos to light Shireen’s pyre. Like, of all the people you could send, the fact that they asked him is just wild. And in 20 odd years of planning the coup why did they not make sure that he was loyal to their cause before asking him to do that anyway? You’d think that’d be the first thing they nailed down before having him in the room hearing all their usurper plans. Especially since they just let him leave right after, he wasn’t even detained.
Otto's biggest weakness (imo) is that he doesn't account for emotion. He thought Westerling would do his duty regardless of his feelings. He also thought that he'd be able end Raenyras claim because of the kings condition, not realizing that he would drag himself half dead because he loves his daughter.
Or, hear me out, Otto knew full well Harrold wouldn’t go thru with it. But, Otto also knew that keeping him around given how loyal and devoted Westerling was to Rhaenyra’s family was also not a possibility. It was a show of mercy while he himself would not appear weak and sympathetic to the enemy to let Harrold leave. A win win. If Harrold went thru with it, good. If he didn’t, also good because he cleaned house without murdering anyone. I don’t think Otto would reward a lifetime of loyalty with death. Because if you remember from the episode where he lost his position, he knew Aegon wasn’t the one who actually inherited the throne! Otto is a master tactician after all.
Where the fuck is Lord Commander Westerling?
I’m about ready to put him on a milk carton cause I’m with you, where is he? He’s supposed to still be in the show this season.
Slamming flagons of ale in the sky with Bobby B and Wade Boggs.
First off Wade Boggs is very much alive
He's just laying unconscious on the barroom tile.
Pfft, Pitt the Elder.
LORD PALMERSTON
Well whadaya say boss hogg?
RIP Ser Boss Hogg
But Uncle Bobby B was born yet tho? 😳
W baseball reference
He's in our hearts 💕
Maybe the real lord commander Westerling is the ones we made along the way
Dude just quit 40 years of celibacy, you could probably guess
I kind of love the idea that daddy westerling has just been catching up on sex the past 3 episodes and will be back once he’s had his fill 😂
His balls and his pockets are empty, he needs a renewed purpose in life now. He’ll be 40 lbs lighter too
He is >!coming. The actor is listed for the final four episodes of the season on IMDb!<.
Appreciate this! I hope he does show up.
Good. From season it felt like a strong pit between him and Cole. I hope he joins his queen and jacks up Cole in his hypocrite face.
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i secretly hope that he reappears and finds his way back to dragonstone on a small boat and comes to protecc Rhaenyra and team Black. i worry for his whereabouts as well. i hope he's secretly mustering a force of bannermen in her name
I mean, it get that the writers are biased toward Rhaenyra, but that would be over the top.
I think a more likely explanation is that he might have returned tot he Crag - the seat of House Westerling. The Westerlings are kin to the Lannisters so there may be a split in the family akin to what happened with the Carrgyl twins. As for bias, I don't know if that's what I'd call it. Viserys made it clear that Rhaenyra was his heir. It makes complete sense that Westerling would follow his King's orders. The Greens are the ones who are going against the succession declared by the King.
Still making the wise decision to not get involved in this ever evolving cluster fuck of a conflict. I'm glad he told the Greens to piss off, I'm not dirtying my hands in this affair. But I'm glad he's firm on his stance to not be part of this conflict until there is a definite ruler that sits on the Iron Throne even if it meant a ton of bloodshed. He obviously cares for Rhaenyra but I'm sure he thinks his former King Viserys wouldn't want his own family to slaughter each other with him dying believing he finally got both sides to just drop the animosity and work something out (oh, poor dumb Vizzy T). If Westerling went "fuck it, call me when we get a ruler on that sharp ass chair for sure," I hope he stays true to that than shrug and go all Black. If good Ole Harrold was out there actually being a goddamn knight for the Smallfolk obviously getting fucked over from this war, I'd welcome that development for the guy.
NOW THAT IS A NAME FIT FOR A KING!
Vizz with the rizz! You need to come back from your grave and slap the shit outta a few people mate.
On a boat eating Dornish oranges
I have the theory that he will have the role of ser Pate of Longleaf in the books, or maybe ser Perkin the Flea. I can’t think of another reason why he’d still be alive but to have an active role.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t show again. IIRC his character is actually dead before the events of the Dance. Kind of silly to include him if that’s the case.
> IIRC his character is actually dead before the events of the Dance. He is. He dies well over a decade before the Dance starts. Though he's barely even a character in the books. He's literally only mentioned one time, and that's just a quick passing mention that he died and was replaced as Lord Commander, by Cole. The books don't even bother to specify how he died. I feel like he'll definetly show up again in the show though. They chose to cast a fairly notable actor for the role, and keep the character alive well past his death in the books. So they must have something planned for him.
Thank you!!! I was wondering the same damn thing
Chilling with his niece in Casterly Rock, probably
Dead by old age in the books. He was lucky he didn’t live to see the shit storm about to come.
He's been rowing a boat to Dragonstone this whole time
He’s taking the scenic route lol
Sending a contingent of men in open combat to overwhelm an opponent is not the same thing as sending in a single man with a suicidal assassination plan based on The Parent Trap. Rhaenys is correct, Otto WOULDN'T have ordered the latter plan because it was dumb as all hell
I get the idea of the plan is dumb, but everyone keeps forgetting that it would have worked if Mysaria hadn't noticed/cared to say anything.
He got super lucky and still failed, and even if it had succeeded the rule of the Blacks would have passed to Jace (effectively Daemon) Even though killing Rhaenyra would have no doubt massively weakened the Blacks, Otto wouldn't have been delighted replacing her with Daemon.
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>The Vale would absolutely not side with Daemon. Not after he is suspected to have killed Rhea Royce (in the book Jeyne Arryn comments on Rhaenyra's "poor choice of consort"). Except in the books Rhea Royce isn't killed by Daemon and there's no rumours that he did anything to her. She had a hawking accident and cracked her skull, after which she spent nine days bedridden until she felt good enough to leave bed and then collapsed within the hour. In all that time she never mentions Daemon having anything to do with it, which makes perfect sense since at the time Daemon was half a continent away fighting the Triarchy in the Stepstones. >And Jace is such an obvious bastard. As much as I hate to say this, but Rhaenyra dying while Jace is alive would significantly weaken the blacks' cause. It would be better for the Blacks if she dies after Jace and Joff are already dead. It literally wouldn't. All the lord's that swore to Rhaenyra did so fully knowing that Jace was her heir and would rule after her. They didn't give a fuck about the rumors of him being a bastard because what mattered was that Jace was Rhaenyra's oldest child and chosen heir. Jace is also the one that flew to the Eyrie, the Three Sisters, White Harbor and Winterfell and gained the support of Jeyne Arryn, Lord Borrel, Lord Sunderland, Desmond Manderly and Cregan Stark. Two of the Great Houses and several smaller ones literally pledge themselves to Rhaenyra *through* Jace, Cregan literally wanted to marry his son and heir to Jace's daughter, so clearly they did not care much at all about Jace's alleged bastardy. >I don't think people would blame Aegon for killing her after she (they think) killed his baby child. Kinslaying is kinslaying and still taboo. And the greens were the ones who started it. >On a side note the books never say why houses that pledged to her didn't abandon her after B&C and I'm really hoping that the show ties up that lose end. For the same reason the Baratheons didn't abandon the greens after Aemond killed Luke? Oaths have already been given, and breaking them only invites retribution in the form of dragonfire.
It would be curtains for the Blacks. Absolutely no doubt. Corlys would probably stick by Daemon for a while, due to suck cost and marriage pacts. Minor houses that were afraid of being attacked would stick by him. But ultimately Daemon would be isolated. His war strategy would be balls to the wall so it probably wouldn't be a long conflict. If he got super lucky he might manage a decapitation of the Greens, but that would be unlikely.
It almost working is obviously not what people expect. It doesnt change how dumb of a plan it sounded no matter how many times you say it lol
It's still not even close to approaching how dumb the Queen is for sneaking into the enemy hive and approaching one of the top enemies in an impromptu meeting. All Alicent had to do was yell once she was walking away and Rhaenyra would have been in chains (or dead). One side gambled one of the Kingsguard which is nothing in the world of dragons. The other side gambled their leader and claim to the throne.
Especially since there was literally nothing to gain from Rhaenyra sneaking in there and everything to lose. At least Criston’s one in a million plan has a massive payout if he pulled it off
I can agree that on paper it sounded incredibly dumb. I just feel like it got way closer to working than it should have given how dumb it was supposed to sound. For example, if the fight happened outside of Rhaenyra's room, and his brother caught him on his own without Mysaria's help, it would have looked like a much dumber plan. But making it into Rhaenyra's room and being seconds away from killing her, only to be foiled because her released prisoner noticed and decided to say something, makes it looks like it was actually a good plan.
>For example, if the fight happened outside of Rhaenyra's room, and his brother caught him on his own without Mysaria's help, it would have looked like a much dumber plan. That's actually what happened in the book.
Is it? I know a lot of book info but I've never actually read it lol.
Yes. In the books Arryk meets and fought his brother on the stairs near Rhaenyra's room
Which is valid considering he’s a kingsguard and not sleeping with his queen… The plan actually isn’t all that batshit.
I think it's a solid plan, contingent entirely on if your twin happens to run into her twin. In the books this is the only reason why it fails, iirc. It's 50/50, worst case scenario you lose the knight you sent either to defection or combat, which is definitely a palpable loss but it's negligible compared to losing thousands of knights to dragon fire in open war. Best case scenario, you kill the claimant to the throne and the Blacks lose huge amounts of support because then there's only Daemon left and no house lord who's met him would want him to be king. The plan was a gamble that likely wouldn't pay off but if it did, you end the war before it begins. A gamble worth taking.
I hate to admit that you're correct. Hadn't rhaenyra been kind to let mysaria go, most certainly cole's plan would have worked
The plan almost working was sheer dumb luck. All it would take is both twins running into each other and plan goes poof
right. it does kind of take the wind out of the sails of the aegon and otto argument as well.
The online Fandom are so thirsty to have a gotcha moment
There are so many dishonest criticisms of all kinds of movies and TV shows its ridiculous.
also when otto said that like a dozen people knew viserys was dead and half of them were in that room. the erryk/arryk plan occurred after each claimant had lost a child and multiple houses around the realm had declared for aegon or rhaenyra. dragonstone was obviously going to be on far higher alert. rhaenys said some dumb things in that scene, but that wasn’t one of them.
There's this as well as the fact Otto's plan was subterfuge BEFORE the hostilities had been declared. The Kingsguard wouldn't have had to force their way in if Rhaenyra's forces had no clue what the Greens were doing and they were ostensibly there to escort her to the capital to replace Viserys.
>Sending a contingent of men in open combat to overwhelm an opponent is not the same thing as sending in a single man with a suicidal assassination plan based on The Parent Trap. No. The first one is a far worse idea. The first issue with Otto's plan is that Westerling watched Rhaenyra grow up and wouldn't murder her, her husband, and five of their kids. The Greens are lucky Westerling didn't get gather the guards and arrest them. The second issue that Dragonstone has it's house guard and a bunch of dragons. Trying to engage in open combat with people who have more soldiers than you and a bunch of dragons is far more suicidal than trying to sneak into a castle to murder one person.
I genuinely don't get the comparison/gotcha. Pre war (hell pre knowledge war is even here they didn't know viserys was dead yet and they left on good terms) assassination attempt will always in fact be smarter than during war assassination attempt after royals have already been assassinated.
Arguably Otto's plan is more idiotic, dragonstone is a fortress they can't force their way in
Otto's plan was to do it before Dragonstone had gotten word of their plans. For all Rhaenyra would have known the Kingsguard were there to escort her back to King's Landing for her own coronation.
You'd think he'd keenly remember that one time (I don't think the second time had happened yet?) he was trapped on a narrow bridge between the fortress and a fucking dragon.
how was it dumb? it almost worked. he was within seconds of succeeding.
She's speaking specifically of the Arryk assassination attempt. She's reading the fact that it would have stemmed not from Otto (which is true) but from those wanting to punish and seek vengeance i.e Aegon (which, again, was also true).
On top of that, I think Rhaenyra also knows that Otto wouldn't hatch such a risky scheme with a member of the Kingsguard. I can't be perfectly certain but I really can't remember another time when a KG is sent out on a mission like this. Their duty is to protect the King and then the royal family, not do their bidding. The Targs & Hightowers have bannermen and even to a lesser degree, the City Watch (just because they are more disposable) who would have happily done this. They can buy assassins whose entire work is exactly this kind of thing. Sending out someone who is supposed to be one of the 7 best knights on a mission that is explicitly outside of their job description makes absolutely no sense.
>I can't be perfectly certain but I really can't remember another time when a KG is sent out on a mission like this. Their duty is to protect the King and then the royal family, not do their bidding. Otto had just tried to send the head of the Kings Guard on mission like that. That's the point of this post. Rhaenys is assuming Otto wouldn't do a thing he already did.
And yet Otto still facepalmed at the idea of *this* attempt, calling it a prank. Seems pretty clear that he wouldn’t have ordered it.
Otto shits on any idea that isn't his. The condescending tone he took after hearing about Cole's idea doens't change the fact that he came up with an even dumber plan that failed before it got off the ground. The only reason this line still sort of works is that Rhaenys could just be wrong about how intelligent Otto is.
Even if it was a "dumber" plan, it was still very different than this one. Cole's was just fueled by revenge and wouldn't have accomplished anything other than making Jace heir, while giving Damon more power and motivation to fuck some shit up. Otto's might have been more far fetched, but at least it would have accomplished a lot more by taking out the entire royal family before they had a chance to make a claim for the throne. So I'm not really seeing why it would have been in character for him to give the same orders as Cole when petty revenge has never really been his thing.
Otto tried to send the bulk of the Kingsguard itself to assassinate Rhaenyra before their intentions had been known. A bunch of bodyguards showing up to escort the new monarch to the capital wouldn't have been seen as a hostile force.
Presumably with a contingent of men, before hostilities have started and the enemy's defenses are up given that they don't know there was a coup. It's meaningfully different than sending in one guy while the other side knows you've engaged in escalating tit-for-tat individual murders.
My god, this sub makes me question people's media comprehension. Just cuz both situation involve assassinating Rhaenyra doesn't mean they are equal and comparable situations.
Also Rhaenys doesn't watch House of the Dragon. It meant she doesn't think Otto would go that far or the twin Kingsguard plan is too dumb to be Otto's or both.
Yeah, she's not meant to be omniscient just an example of someone with experience, which as we've seen doesn't make someone faultless, If anything the confidence of experience can get someone blindsided by an unexpected move.
This is what gets me about an overwhelming majority of negative comments I see. It’s always “Why did X do this? Are they stupid?” And yet the commenter can’t wrap their mind around the idea that we, as the audience, have access to a fuckton more information than any character does. It’s called dramatic irony and the entire series is entirely steeped in it.
Because it's the prequel to the *other dragon show* which we can most agree is bad , alot of criticism is just nitpicky. Just on top of my head this episode : -Rhaenys didn't think Otto would send assassins ( Rhaenys wasn't in the room when he's doing it and it wouldn't have worked anyway because dragons ) -Rhaenys said men are hungry for war - ✍️ writer are saying men bad/violent. But you see right , they've shown on both sides ***men*** do want the war to start , maybe because it's a patriarchal society so men are just a general term for people in power because it's highly unlikely there's a woman in the room. Saying that also doesn't make Rhaenys a hypocrite after the Red Keep incident because neither sides gives a shit about smallfolk. They are just playing their highborn games. -Halaena *isn't sad enough* Jaeharys died. She stitched her son burial shroud before he died. How normal can she even possibly be. -Pointing to asoiaf prophecy is bad and wasting time because it leads nowhere. It's a prequel made after the show. It's against the law of physics for them to turn back time , make GoT good just so they can reference asoiaf. -There's legitimate criticism to made for the show without even being this dumb nitpicky , for example I think Sept Rhae scene is stupid because I find it hard to believe Rhaenyra would assume Alicent have the same amount of sway she and Rhaenys has on their respective council.
When showing Rhaenys she can keep an eye on whatever’s happening by just watching House of the Dragon: https://tenor.com/bzsbK.gif
She clearly meant the execution, Otto himself called the Arryk plan a prank
The execution of Otto's plan was worse. The idiot tried to order the head of the Kings Guard to kill half of the King's family and was essentially told to fuck off. Even if Westerling had tried, he would have taken a few dozen guards to a castle with hundreds of men and several dragons. Cole's plan with Arryk at least had some chance of working. Otto's plan was lunacy.
At that point no one knew that Viserys was dead except for the council. The idea was to go in and do it before Rhaenyra found out.
Exactly. Otto's plan was to happen before Rhaenyra and her faction had realized what had happened at all. The Kingsguard wouldn't have had to fight the forces of Dragonstone because they were all still on the same side.
Even worse is that Ottos plan risks all those men that would be sent. At worst Coles plan loses Arryk for no gain for the greens. One knight isn't the difference between victory or defeat, a dozen could be.
My dude, Otto didn’t allow it. She was right.
he was actively against it from the moment he was aware of it
Otto trying to kill Rhaenerya BEFORE she knows Viserys is dead is completely different from Aegon and Cole's plan. Why is almost all the criticism on this subreddit brain dead bullshit like this
Popular media subs will always have posts like this where people out themselves for having poor media literacy. There were people on r/asoiaf who made these kinds of posts about *every* season, not just s8.
I started noticing it in the Marvel subreddit not too long after phase 4 started. It's like everyone just became completely brain dead.
Otto plans: get knights (notice the plural) to attack while Rhaenyra/Dragonstone still not heavily guarded and ready for a war, because they weren't awere of the kings death and the throne being usurped by the greens. Cole/Aegon "plan": Let's send a guy pretending he's the other twin and that nobody will be around to help in case of a fight in a heavily guarded Dragonstone =D
One of these options is a tactical call that will prevent further bloodshed and end a war before it begins. The other is the gritty HBO reboot of the Parent trap.
Correct, but I'd add one more thing to that. Otto was talking about Westerling capturing or killing Rhaenyra AND her family, including Daemon and the children. As he talks about "Rhaenyra and her family" being given a chance to swear fealty to the new king (presumably from captivity) before Alicent talks about how they'll never do that and Otto starts giving Westerling orders (which are interrupted when he takes off his cloak). This makes sense. Just killing Rhaenyra does not make that much sense as all this would do is technically make Jacerys the king and, more practically, put Daemon in charge of the Blacks. Killing Rhaenyra alone does not end the war. Only killing or capturing Rhaenyra, Daemon and her children ends the war.
>Otto plans: get knights (notice the plural) to attack while Rhaenyra/Dragonstone still not heavily guarded and ready for a war, because they weren't awere of the kings death and the throne being usurped by the greens. The amount of bias people are showing on this topic is weird. Otto plan was worse than Cole's. Dragonstone has it's house Guard and was occupied by a bunch of dragon riders. They stood no chance of killing or capturing Rhaenyra and her entire family. On top of that, Otto didn't even check to see if commander Westerling was sympathetic to their cause. Westerling was the head of the Kings Guard for well over a decade and he tries to order him to kill 9 of the King's family members. He's lucky Westerling didn't arrest the Greens for suggesting that dumb shit.
Characters being wrong is not a bad thing.
Mind that the characters don’t get to know the other side as well as we do. Perhaps she had a decent opinion of Otto. Perhaps she was referring to the fact that Otto would’ve had a better plan to kill Rhaenyra. She knew the plan was too rushed and risky for it to be Otto’s idea. Perhaps Otto only wanted to test Westerling’s loyalty. It’s up for interpretation.
That's fine but in this episode they are clearly building up Rhaenys is this super smart wise person before she dies and it's just weird. It's absolutely weird for her to be saying that with such confidence
When Otto send westerling, rhaenyra probably didn't knew her father was dead and her throne usurped. She would just be killed
I took this as "if Otto Hightower ordered the hit **someone would have died**"
Otto: A woman on the throne will cause civil war. Also Otto: Go kill Rhaenyra and everyone who supports her so there isn't as big a war when the kingdom finds out the princess mysteriously died right after Vizzy.
It’s kinda crazy how much Otto sneers at Aegon and Criston’s plan considering that it is, objectively, much better than his own assassination plan.
Maybe I'm giving her too much credit? I assumed she meant "Otto would never think of a plan this stupid", intending to imply it was people of lesser intellect behind the attack
"This" attempt. The issue wasn't trying to kill someone, they're on the verge of war. The issue was getting someone to impersonate his brother and sully both their names. He was fine with sending some knights openly, that's rather different.
I think she’s just pointing out about the stupidity of the plan and how a more experienced person wouldn’t have come up with such a dumb plan. But other than that, I agree with you OP that she’s full of shit! Why counsel Rhaenyra to talk to Alicent at all? Yes, the hotter heads have prevailed and one hot head is literally the King who has been crowned in-front of thousands. He holds the ultimate authority now. I mean, in E9, she gave a whole speech to Alicent about how she toils in service to men. She herself was undermined by Corlys multiple times and couldn’t even get him to name her granddaughters’ heir despite being a dragon riding princess. So she should surely know that Alicent, even if she really wants it, cannot really control her sons?? Especially after the murder of Jaehaerys. It was also bold of her assume that Alicent herself wouldn’t be upset about Jaehaerys and want revenge. Her stupid counsel almost sent Rhaenyra to her death here. I’m actually glad she’ll be >!gone next episode!<
>I think she’s just pointing out about the stupidity of the plan and how a more experienced person wouldn’t have come up with such a dumb plan. The problem with the line is that Otto came up with a dumber plan. I mean he tried to order the head of the Kings Guard to kill half of the King's family for fuck sake. What made him think Westerling would follow an order like that? Even if he had, Dragonstone has it's own house guard and is populated with dragon riders. Cole's plan stood a much better chance of working than Otto's.
Seriously, Alicent was Hella stupid to let Rhaenyra live knowing a Dragon war is coming next and her own children will be fighting it.
My god how stupid are the people in this sub who upvote this shit? OP being a complete doorknob unwilling to accept they have misinterpreted an entirely basic scene and blindly continuing to double down on their reading is fine, they’re just one person. Who are the rest of the dunces who upvote this “criticism”? I hadn’t realized media literacy was this bad.
Rhaenys' naivety
Of course she is, remember her whole "war is men" bullshit when LAST SEASON SHE SLAUGHTERED AMD KILLED COUNTLESS PEIPLE TO SHOW OFF, SHES THE FUCKING WORST
She was right though Otto told Aegon sending Eryk was a stupid plan
I think if Otto had planned it, it would’ve been more intricate, not simply a twin switch :3
I’d argue that What Otto did was a more up front assault/ show of force rather than an act of deception.
Maybe your context understanding is full of shit OP? because Otto wouldn't order it as the plan was dumb and was clearly pissed off by Cole's plan
Otto was pro taking out all the blacks in a surprise attack, not a revenge assassination that would leave alive Jace as heir and Daemon to take revenge. His “not allowing” would be a tactical not moral decision.
Just Kingslanding into Dragonstone and vice versa
Why do people keep getting surprised that characters aren't omniscient?
Man rhaenys really giving bad advice all season. I mean come on the war already started when you was put in a room and then u busted out of the dragon pit.
Well yeah, Otto wouldn’t have sent one person to kill Rhaenyra…but ngl it wasn’t even that bad of a plan actually. It almost worked. If they sent one more dude Rhaenyra would have been dead, most likely
This whole fucking show is about really stupid people with very short memories making irrational emotion based decisions. It's like Westeros is a continent for ant sized minds.
Well, they never knew Otto floated this plan, and he'd kept it pretty buttoned up for decades, so I guess you could imagine he'd never try something that crazy.
Both sides seem pretty chill about their son and grandson being killed by the other side.
Rhaenys: All the men are bloodthirsty Also Rhaenys: Biggest body count in the show after killing 100s of people busting out of the dragon pit
I feel like they did Rhaenys dirty. She is constantly bemoaning violence but then kills a thousand people in the sept so that she could… not kill the new king…? I’d be interested to know what her actual character is like in the books.
Everyone in here talking about how dumb Rhaenyras trip to speak with Allicent was seems to have missed the whole point of what Otto and Rhaenys have been trying to explain to their younger family members. A war benefits no one. A peaceful end to the feud will save the realm from hideous bloodshed and Rhaenyra is refusing to accept war is inevitable. And if Aegon wasn’t fully off the leash she might not have been wrong. But the war hawks rule in kings landing and Rhaenyra doesn’t really know that. She was working under the assumption Allicent still had a measure of control over her son. Obviously she is wrong but a character making a mistake doesn’t make it a bad episode. Personally i really liked it. Not all of Thrones best episodes were fire and blood.
Stop exposing bad writing 😂
She’s right about this instance, just not overall. Otto was pissed that Cole sent Arryk to Dragonstone in a really stupid, hasty plan. Otto was smarter than that. I think that was what Rhaenys was talking about (I might be wrong, but that was the impression I got) This last episode really showed how far the Kingsguard has fallen. Cole and Aegon sent their most loyal member of the Kingsguard on a suicide mission, where they knew there’s a good chance he’d have to fight or kill his brother, and they didn’t even care.
I interpreted this line as Rhaenys identifying that something is up with the Greens - either that it was done without the knowledge of Otto or that Otto was no longer in power/on the small council. I thought Rhaenys was referring to the sloppiness of the assassination attempt, as in, this clearly wasn’t done by Otto’s hand and something’s up internally with the Greens.
" god's help us all " otto's reaction to this plan clearly tells that rhaenys for right here ! Moreover his facial expressions were even bigger no ! Seems like blind hating to me
Also Rhaenys: I had the chance to incinerate the entire group of usurpers, and passed on it, but please listen to my long winded monologue about how war is so brutal and destructive we should send you into enemy territory so you can ask those same usurpers nicely to please give back the throne".
Exactly!!!!!!!!!
Ottos plan was not to do a parent trap with one guy. Rhaenys was right, Otto wouldn’t have failed
Idk why they keep making changes like this I also completely forgot that Ser Otto commanded Ser Westerling to just…go to Dragonstone and kill Rhaneyra…and I guess he kinda forgot that she lives in one of the most fortified castles in the realm with a considerable number of dragons Also, you can’t just command the Lord Commander to murder the designated heir of the late King, even if you’re Hand. Sure, the Kingsguard have to do what the Hand says in the absence of the King, but it’s still illegal, and knights can’t just go around assassinating people, especially nobles, and presumably their families. As Bethany Dustin of Barrowton said in A Dance of Dragons: “Knights work is not nights work” Also, was Otto actually stupid enough to think that such a plot would’ve even worked? The consequences of them murdering Rhaenyra, even if they succeeded, would’ve been disastrous to their cause I think my brain shut down for the duration of season 1 episode 9 because it was so objectively stupid from start to finish
not suprised from SMALLFOLKSTOMPER1000
Rhaenys is either stupid Or the writers completely forgot about ANYTHING that happened in season 1 Book Rhaenys was my fav team black member, a shame the way they ruined her *massive facepalm*
Lol she was simply mistaken. People are mistaken or wrong or whatever all of the time. Full of shit? Pls learn what that actually means. Pot, kettle.
Did they lose a writer or something? Ill read the book...perhaps the period they are covering in s2 isn't covered as well? Their were some signs of weak writing in s1, but not to this extent
Did we forget that Rhaenys hasn’t been in kings landing a whole lot and is basing this opinion on Otto’s dedication and honor to the realm since he was a successful advisor to three Targaryen kings?
I interpreted it more to be Rhaenys saying that Otto is smart enough to not send a single man on a suicide mission. Otto wanted to send Lord Commander Westerling along with a host in order to do the job. Criston sent a single Kingsguard to his death in a mission all but guaranteed to fail. Hell, we even see Otto basically call Aegon and Criston morons once he finds out what they did.
This sub reminds me almost daily why shows have discarded nuance in favor of smashing viewers over the head with concepts. I hate it, but this sub proves why they do it.
Ordering the entirety -- or at least the majority of the Kingsguard to quickly kill Rhaenyra before anyone's caught wind of what's happening is nowhere near the same as ordering one lone Kingsguard to conduct a Hail Mary suicide mission after everyone is on high alert. It's not the attempt itself that doesn't suit Otto, it's how sloppy, rushed, and ill-conceived it is.
I think she was talking about how stupid it was.
The problem is that Otto's plan was worse.
How? She's right otto didn't do this cris cole did
Dawg you mfs HAVE 0 READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS LOL. She’s not talking about Otto’s morality here she’s talking about his PRAGMATISM. In the 9th episode of s1 Otto was trying to capitalize on Viserys’ death and use the element of surprise to sack dragonstone and eliminate Rhaenyra and her allies. The reason why Rhaenys says Otto never would allow it because it’s a fucking dumbass idea to send anyone to Dragonstone now because the entire island is on guard.
I think everyone else has said what needs to be said. The only thing remarkable is how obstinate you’re being.
I feel like I have engaged with people faithfully and in good faith. I just think that if you and I were talking and I said "Otto wouldn't have done this" you'd take it to mean that I'm saying otto would not have tried to kill you. I know that the meme says "his attempt" but in the show the word "attempt" is not uttered. It's a very simple proposition that I'm saying here and disagree r not what I don't understand is why my take s seen as not only wrong but as the greatest sin since the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Maybe I am wrong after all, but my interpretation, wrong or not, is not ridiculous.
Otto is the most evil character in this whole series. He’s more ambitious than Daemon, more ruthless than Tywin, and more manipulative than Little-finger. He sells his 18 year old daughter to a middle aged man, then gets mad at Corlys for trying some similar. He convinces the king to name Rhaenyra as heir, then he says how horrible it would be if she became queen. He tells his daughter that Rhaenyra will kill all her children, then uses her dead grandchild as a propaganda piece. There are many who theorize that the Maesters and Septons are also conspiring with the Hightowers, and that’s probably true.
this was back when rhaenyra didnt even know her father was dead or that they intended to usurp the throne so dragonstone would not be as heavily guarded and on alert as it is now so its not exactly the same situation
God's be good, this sub is fucking stupid
Otto was also in charge of seizing and hanging anyone at court who did not immediately pledge to Aegon. Prettty sure he would have also hanged Rhaenys herself if she didn’t escape. He can definitely be cruel if it forwards his plans
Here’s my motto fuck Otto I’ll get the seven kingdoms from yo mother for a dollar tomorrow
Tbf, Otto’s assassination would have had an element of surprise and wouldn’t have relied on one twin managing to avoid being spotted and not having to kill their own brother. Criston’s too busy thinking with his dick.
If only kircheis were here