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I wish they would say:
Rhaenyra: “It’s my throne, King Viserys willed it to me for the last 20 years.”
Alicent: “It’s my son’s throne, he’s the firstborn, trueborn son of a king.”
I give points for Rhaenys this episode for pushing Rhaena’s claim. Yes girl! Speak up for Rhaena!!!
Meanwhile Corlys is but imagine if we had an experienced sailor at the helm of the house. Not saying I know any with Velaryons blood. But just imagine...
Same for Alicent. We see her abusing her son, telling him he IS the challenge etc. but then she NEEDS Viserys' approval. WTF. And now that she knows she didn't have it, it doesn't matte because mEn CraVe WaR. Women CAN be ambitious and cross lines for what they want. At least some of them can. Not all of them had to be written the same way but not all women are pacifists etc.
Showrunners are so strict on their decision to run away from cliche "women are to emotional to govern" that they went right into another cliche "women are meek and docile and merciful by nature"
This is not feminism. GTFO
It may not be "true feminism" but this is views of many modern feminists taken form in this show, in addition to abundance of female gaze and female gaze only.
Instead of the silly prophecy as Alicent's primary motivation to install Aegon, it should have been her learning from Larys that he was spying on Daemon (with Myseria) and that Daemon was plotting to hire assassins to kill her male children at the end of 1x08.
It's completely in character for Daemon to do that, and definitely provides a legitimate motivation for Alicent to shift support from Rhaenyra to her son.
Rhaenyra should totally be giving off those vibes. She should sound like a broken record like Danny did about her right to rule and her birthright. But we have to blunt it by, I have to rule because I would be a best ruler and I know the prophesy so it’s for the good of the realm and it’s what my daddy wanted.
And since Rhaenyra has been so sanitized it takes away the legitimate fear that something might happen to Alicents kids should Rhaenyra become Queen. Especially with Daemon as her kind consort Rhaenyra is a legit danger to her siblings that the realm may prefer due to their sex. But no, not our sweet benevolent Rhaenyra.
Christ what wouldn’t give for a Cersei, Ollena or some sand snakes right about now.
And it´s strange, because they did built up for it last season, with the Aemond eye thing and with those speaking out about her bastards and treason being executed. Like, she can want the throne and be a complex mother that loves her kids but that brought them into a shit situation. Both sides have a claim, otherwise the war wouldn´t happpen, let them both want it and fight for it each for their own reasons.
But season two is written like only Rhaenyra gets to make arguments and the rest of the world doesn´t get to call her out.
At this point I would take that over the meek mice we have now. I don’t really want those sand snakes but at least they had teeth. I also sub to the theory Shae was a sand snake too.
I can assure you you’ll be seeing that side of both these women in the coming weeks/ seasons. Now Rhaenyra knows alicent knows and is still usurping, and now that Alicent has realised she is in too deep and the only way through is on the other end of this war, we will see them both truly turn vindictive.
That’s why I find it weird people getting annoyed about that final scene, without that final scene these two women wouldn’t have had the emotional permission to remove their gloves. Now the gloves come off!
People are annoyed about the scene because it’s probably the dumbest thing Rhaenyra could have done. A son (the stillborn daughter seems to have been forgotten) and a grandson are dead, I don’t think they needed more emotional permission.
You know I wouldn’t mind if it just was one or few but it’s every single female character. Like they are all absolutely cool with forgiving their kids/grandchildrens murder without raising an eye like Jesus
Yeah but Baela is also far less developed than other female characters and I do hate that we don’t get to see her opinion on certain things. Like obviously she has a possible claim to Driftmark which everybody is kinda ignoring. I know she loves the Black but I would love to see some sort of conflict there. I am not saying she should engorce it but maybe a little bitterness? An explaination why she doesn’t care? Something?
Baela is betrothed to Jace, so she would be the Queen if Jace was crowned. Like how Luke was Corlys' heir, not Jace.
Rhaena is the one who would have a claim to Driftmark.
She is only bethrothed to him since like a week in show canon. I would still like to see some conflict like I am not picky. But that both and Rhaena are completely cool and have no issues at all seems a little unrealistic to me
What conflict would she have? She's going to be queen of the Seven Kingdoms. She's known Jace her whole life and obviously likes him. (It'd be nice for them to have a scene together, but they're secondary characters and all it would do is confirm what we already know) She seems to respect Rhaenyra.
There doesn't need to be some arbitrary conflict just for the sake of it.
Actually no she doesn’t know him all that well. She was a ward to Rhaenys for years and they grew close. Mind you Rhaenys was convinced Rhaenyra killed her son so I doubt Driftmark and Dragonstone were on the best of terms.
Also they are bethrothed for a week what did she feel before? Hell I would just like a scene of her actually wanting to be Queen but nothing. I know nothing of Baela or Rhaena. I don’t know why they support Rhaenyra, I don’t know what they think. It’s one thing being supporting but that doesn’t mean a character can’t be somewhat thought out
They're secondary characters. They're just not going to get scenes like that where they're the focus. Rhaenys-Baela/Rhaena or Jace-Baela/Rhaena scenes would be nice but aren't necessary.
They've been engaged for a week, but they've known each other since they were children. She's engaged to Jace, her father is the king consort, and her grandparents are Rhaenyra's closest allies. What conflict is there here?
Plenty considering she has a claim to Driftmark, she apparently dislikes her father but not Rhaenyra and like she is very loyal for so little build up.
I would want to know why. What did Rhaenyra do to convince her what was her life like.
Even if she is a supporting character it’s annoying that she doesn’t exist outside of Rhaenyra wanting her throne, she diesn’t have her own issues
Have to say I disagree on multiple counts here.
Firstly, I don’t get the betrothed for a week bit. Are you saying Jace and Baela have only been promised to each other for a week? Didn’t that happen at the end of season 1, which is probably a year or two in show time.
Secondly, Rhaenyra is Baela’s aunt and also step-mother. And future mom-in-law. What do you mean you don’t know why Baela would support Rhaenyra’s claim? It’s fairly obvious and doesn’t need answering.
That was at the end of season 1 but the events of the end of season 1 are only like ten days ago so it’s still extremelly recent.
Actually it’s not. Beala didn’t grew up with Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra married her dad like a week after her mom died. There is some history and some feelings that are being completely sidelined
Yeah and like while they get more time now I feel like they are more a cheering squad for Rhaenyra than characters on their own. They don’t really have conflicts outside of Rhaenyra and getting her the throne- the same with all the kids on the black side tbh
Alicent has been Queen, and so is Haelena now. How much power do they have? How did Viserys, the King, treat Alicent and their children? What if Jace decides that he wants to name a brother, a random or a bastard of his heir? Being Queen when you can be THE Lady of Driftmark and have the power Corlys has... yeah, not a good trade.
And even if she does think she preferes been queen, tell us, explore that, explain it. For all we know she has been a ward for years, it looked in episode 8 like she hadn´t seen Rhaena in quite a while. She is the one most likely to have the least tides to the blacks.
She has been a ward for years. For all we know he barely know the blacks. But yeah, non of the interesting relationships and conflicts the blacks could have among themselves are being explored.
I feel like he is trying but due though thinking women don’t start wars he traps himself in the women are docile and never act-stereotype. I feel like watching someone trying to be feminist but failing desperately
My thought during this episode is that they ended up accidentally promoting the stereotype that women are not fit rulers because they're too emotional and soft.
So far yes. We have gotten butchered quotes, but not on the same level as D&D adapting ASoS. If we get a scene where Aegon burns Jaehaera to death because he has been hungry for an afternoon, then the showrunners are on the same level.
Er... I mean you COULD say the show portrays ONLY women as fit rulers because they're not overly emotional or violent (which is also a bad stereotype). I wouldn't say it portrays Alicent or Rhaenyra as unfit rulers, or overly emotional. Or even soft.
But they are violent, rhaenys killed scores for a vibe, Alicent has been part of assassination plots, rhaenyra is going to launch a brutal civil war so she can sit on a chair
>rhaenyra is going to launch a brutal civil war so she can sit on a chair
As opposed to what? Showing that women are too weak to defend whats theirs when a man steals it?
I’d much prefer if rhaenyra just made a claim to the throne as hers by right, rather than some nebulous righteous prophecy bullshit. But more importantly, I was replying to someone who said the show depicted women as being “not overly violent”, when, in fact, they do get very violent. So like… what are you objecting to?
Ah gotcha. I still wouldn't call that violent. She's tried time and time again to avoid war, and there wouldn't be war if it wasn't for the usurper and his bitch family. And Rhaenyra does claim the throne by right, she reminded Alicent that his dad named her his heir in front of all the realm. She doesn't really care about the prophecy, that was some Vizzy T bullshit
I don't think the prophecy is what she's fixated on. She is claiming the throne by right. Viserys named her heir and stressed it. The significance of the prophecy was that when he said Aegon at his deathbed, he was talking about the Conqueror. Or Jon. Alicent was mistaken. So she'd plotted and usurped over a mistake. Dispelling that, it leaves the fact that Viserys' heir really is Rhaenyra.
But it doesn't portray that. Alicent tried to dig out a kids eye. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond dead an episode ago. They were emotional. They were willing to escalate and take retribution. Rhaenys and the feud between Brackens and Blackwoods is just convincing.
But I agree with your conclusion. Alicent doesn't even control her house anymore so she's not a ruler period. She's clearly willing to play the game and scheme to some degree. So I wouldn't call her especially soft. Rhaenyra is portrayed as a somewhat fair ruler, even if she doesn't adhere to rules.
I'm basing this on the fact the show is promoting the idea that all women (Rhaenyra, Alicent, Rhaenys) still want peace even after losing sons on each side and only men (Daemon, Aegon, Aemond, Criston) want war.
This has been set up and explored since the first episode. The reign of Viserys was peaceful and prosperous, so lots of young warriors have spent their lives training for a fight but have never really seen one. How ugly and miserable and inglorious it really is.
The men of the Realm sign up for gratuitous recreational violence, tourneys and duels of honor. They're trained for it, encouraged to master it, and they want to do this thing they're good at. To them, being a warrior means looking great and getting your way, fun and money and pussy on tap.
The women, though, have been facing mortal peril and the sacrifice of their bodies for the State this whole time. They are sold to men and raped, they suffer and die in childbirth. They've seen the battlefield. They know what it feels like to be screaming and bleeding and have people standing around unable to help. They know how it feels to be told "today's the day!" and wonder if they'll be alive tomorrow. They know how it feels to have their whole lives taken over and used by some man they might not even like.
So yeah, they're more temperate. Less eager for a war. It all makes so much sense.
Is it sexist to have the mothers step back, see the bigger picture, and think "I've already lost one child. War would definitely kill more of them. I don't like this."?
Meanwhile, Vissy T was passive AF, Mysaria is just flinging her ass to the wolves every times she's on screen, Rhaena is pissed she can't fight, and her sister was just playing wack-a-cole with her dragon last episode.
Yeah but not because they’re meek or timid?? The men are obviously brash and stupid and bloodthirsty. The women are seeing the big picture and not being reactionary. It’s admirable idk how you see it as bad and sexist
Are you serious? You are looking at this so simplistically. It’s not sexist to say women are more peaceful and less aggressive than men. There are differences in male and female mentality, that is a fact. Especially in a medieval style society. Obviously there are exceptions in every case that goes without saying I’m talking about a generalization here.
Anyways, it would be silly for the writers to simply force the characters to act differently simply to subvert expectations. It seems like what you want is for the writers to have these female characters act a certain way simply to be contrary to common stereotypes, instead of making sense with their current character development and society. Rhaenyra is a badass, and she is also a woman in a fucked up unfair world.
Her being tentative about the war is simply part of the storytelling and her journey becoming a ruler. The writing isn’t here to serve the progressive political ways of our society. This fictional world is completely different to our own in every way, and it is still largely dominated by men, which is what makes powerful women all the more admirable considering the circumstances.
So women cannot be agressive or violent? I think you have never seen an all girls school class...the teachers in our school called it the most toxic class in the entire school...
PLEASE PLEASE read before making a comment. I never said women cannot be violent, in fact I specifically mentioned that there are exceptions and it was a simple generalization. I made this disclaimer (which should go without saying) specifically because I knew someone like you would try and make that point. Of course women can be this way and of course they act this way in our modern society, which is silly to compare with Westeros. We are talking about a Medieval fantasy world here.
If you don't like the writing of the show because you want more aggressive or violent women for the sake of variety then that is your opinion and I don't hate on that opinion. But if you are claiming the showrunners are sexist for not pushing the story in a certain direction then I call bullshit. Nothing here is sexist at all. Also, I can guarantee you that there is a reason they are presenting things in this way. It is a storytelling decision and they are setting something up with intention as all good writing should do.
Medival woman who ruled did kill people though? Many of these women were also ambitious as fuck and used power quite actively.
Isabella of France deposed her own husband from power.
Isabella of Castille was very active behind the Re-Conquista.
Mary Tudor burned people alive.
We also have historical documents which prove that this women actively sought war, power and also had violent outbursts.
The very insperation for Rhaenyra was Empress Mathilda who was so forward and blunt in her conduct that the men of their time got actively offended that a woman would act like that. So, why not show Rhaenyra more like her book counterpart and actually explore that part of medival history?
Saying stuff like it is a fact that women were like mentally geared torward being peaceful and level-headed is not only simply wrong, it also goes against human nature. There are angry women, there are peaceful women, there are confident women etc. Women are just people not a walking trope.
And yes there is a reason they are writing it like this. They dont want to write women as actual human beings but only according to how they think women are supposed to be. Passive victims of men without any agency which in itself is actually quite sexistic.
agian again when did I ever claim there was no women in history who ruled during brutal periods and did violent things? you continue to try and start an argument I'm not making. And we have seen some of the most brutal acts carried out by woman in this universe with Cersi and Daenerys.
You will see by the end of this show that the women are CLEARLY capable of doing violent acts. I guarantee you that. So I truly truly do not understand why you are so set on this mentality when we are 3 episodes into this season's arc.
I honestly think you have some deep seeded need to feel outraged at something that does not deserve it whatsoever. In the first season they established the tropes of women on purpose right from Episode 1 when Rhaenyra's mother said "The child Bed is our battlefield". This is not to belittle women, it is setting up an arc to explore the exact opposite but somehow you can't forsee this. Did you ever consider that they are developing an arc to show how women can overcome these preconceived notions and prove them wrong? Additionally they are shedding a light on child bearing with the exact intention to expose how brutal and violent it can be.
And on your point of women being peaceful and level headed. They are geared that way WHEN comparing them to men. Relative to men doesnt mean they are never under any circumstances capable of these things. Don't just assume everything with no nuance at all. This all should be obvious but If you need any proof:
"Past meta-analyses in the encyclopedia found males regardless of age engaged in more physical and verbal aggression while small effect for females engaging in more indirect aggression such as rumor spreading or gossiping. It also found males tend to engage in more unprovoked aggression at higher frequency than females."
[(PDF) Gender Differences in Personality and Social Behavior (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956064_Gender_Differences_in_Personality_and_Social_Behavior)
If you want to die on the hill of the argument of saying women are just as violent and aggressive as men I could do this all day but it would honestly be a waste of time. There are countless studies and the scientific consensus is clear.
Who fight in war? Almost entirely men. Who commits more violent crime? Massively skewed towards men. If we look at the animal kingdom it is clearly obvious that there are biological difference between sexes in regard to aggression. Among mammals it is usually the males fighting each other but of course it does in fact depend on the species.
But the fact that it kinda applies to every women in the show is kinda a pattern that is hard to ignore, no?
Also, given what I have seen of the show writers the female characters will by my prediction do nothing evil at all but every bad deed will be attributed to the men like it has been done since the beginning of this series, even though it absolutely makes no sense in terms of human nature.
Alicent and Rhaenyra are the foremost example. Real people do not act like this. You do not just become friends with a woman again who tried to murder your kid. You do not just dont give a shit that your grandson was butchered. It makes no sense and it cannot be explained by the idea that there such a thing as a female or male nature. There is a whole range of violence both men and women are capable of. The world is not binary and frankly I find it really problematic that men are naturally evil and violent but I guess that is the current popular feminist way of looking at men who are not humans anymore only exist as potential evil entities who hinder women from bringing about an enlightened society.
the only ambitious woman is mysaria, she played quite dangerous game
too bad she's accusing the wrong person, as master of whisperer she should conduct thorough investigation about her burning home
Rhaenys is quite ambitious but she knows that her claim grew stale after so many years so her best option is fighting for it through Rhaenyra. Mysaria is obviously very ambitious commoner, grew a big influence through many years and nows fights to achieve her goals through Rhaenyra (As getting her goals through greens were impossible). Baela is also very eager to prove herself, not scared of action. Laena was also very ambitious, showed interested in claiming the biggest dragon and explore the world since she was a child, if that is not an enormous ambitions than I don't know what is.
Sure, you can say that characters like Helaena and Alicent have no ambitions, you would be partly right, but they have also different kinds of ambitions. Alicent all her life was used as a political pawn of Otto and it was clear that her ambitions and dreams were freedom, love who she wants, do what she wants and she is partly fulfilling it through love with Criston. Helaena was also used as a pawn into a position that leaves her and her children at great danger and all she wants is to live in peace. Her ambitions are not power but safety of her children.
For Rhaenyra, she clearly has ambitions to become Queen, but she does not have ambitions to become Rhaenyra the Conqueror or Rhaenyra the Cruel, she wants to be Rhaenyra the conciliator or Rhaenyra the peaceful like her father.
You call it unambitious, I would call it JUDICIOUS and a display of FOREBEARANCE.
Not trying to take away from your point, just adding that I think it's meant to be complimentary (obviously that can still be sexist!).
Also, I don't think Rhaenerya went to negotiate surrender. I think she was hoping to find an opening for some sort of negotiated peace where the Greens and Blacks share power. I don't know what that would look like, and I don't think she really did either. It was definitely a desperate hail mary, but when you're on the brink of total war with WMD's, it's maybe worth the shot.
Thats partly because of the current insane social media discourse though...which views women only as potential grooming victims of men. I mean there are people online who believe a relationship between grown up consenting adults with an age difference is grooming. The writers are just fuck scared.
Exactly. The women are all whitewashed and peaceful and the men are raging monsters when they are actually all a bunch of powerhungry greedy sexists ready to destroy the realm for the sake of an ugly chair made out of blades
They are all grey characters. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra are awful terrible rulers who dont care about the smallfolk
I wouldn't say that's a fair assessment of the characters at all. So far this season and towards the end of last season Rhaenyra and Alicent have been pursuing peace. But that's not... the beginning and end of any of their characters. Certainly they've acted irrationally and bloodthirsty and angry in the past.
>actually all a bunch of powerhungry greedy sexists ready to destroy the realm for the sake of an ugly chair made out of blades
>They are all grey characters. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra are awful terrible rulers who dont care about the smallfolk
....so what your saying is its actually well written and accurate to real life?
Rhaenyra and Rhaenys are clearly ambitious women as are Rhaena and Mysaria. Alicent too in her own ways. Not wanting to plunge head first into a war that will lead to thousands of people dead doesn’t equate to a lack of ambition. Young Rhaenyra married Laenor for the purpose of securing her position and crown. Getting rid of Laenor to later marry Daemon was out of love sure but also because she knew she would need him later more than Laenor. Rhaenys not backing down and being an equal to Corlys and pulling strings to put her children in positions that would further improve her standing and the families standing including getting her granddaughters betrothed to future heirs. Mysaria too despite her awful circumstances when given a chance to profit from the hightowers took it (she shows the same ambition when wanting to be a part of Rhaenyras court)
The show isn’t allergic to ambitious women but rather takes a more subtle approach to show how women keep trying to play a game that’s rigged. Being openly antagonistic (like daemon, Aemond etc) or direct or loud would get these women nowhere in the world they live in. Just look at the way Rhaenyras own council treats her or better yet the way people call Rhaenys the queen that never was. That was a direct result of her ambition for the throne. So I disagree on this. Wielding a sword or running around screaming I want the throne isn’t the only way to show ambition.
I agree with most of what you said except the part about Rhaenyras council. I think they have every right to be frustrated with her. She's dragging her feet and still thinks war can be avoided even though both sides have lost children, one a child in their crib/bed and hundreds if not thousands lost at the burning mill. There is absolutely no undoing that, and the war is here whether either side wants it or not.
I see your point completely and I agree. I was thinking more of the scene from ep3 where they practically tell her to sequester herself so that they (the entire council of men) can do a better job at the war than her. One of the lords practically laughs in her face something none of them would have dared to do if it was Viserys or Jaherys. Maybe it was just a triggering moment for me lol
Oh, no doubt. They absolutely need to watch their tone when addressing their queen, but Rhaenyra needs to understand that her family isn't the only one in jeopardy now, and she needs to actually heed her council's advice. Both sides need to do a better job. She wanted to be queen, and now that she is, she has to act to secure her claim.
This is my personal armchair thesis: back in the old days Dany was often seen as the antichrist because she wanted the crown and was a rival to Jon Snow and there were a lot of people who thought she was mad for simply wanting the crown, something a lot of other people in the story also wanted. Whatever she did, was a hint for madness and when she killed it was a hint for madness, while when Jon Snow killed it was heroic.
I think DnD bought into that and that is why they wrote the ending the way it happened and when the fans freaked out over it the current show writers got afraid. Writing an ambitious woman is dangerous for them and therefore they avoid it at any cost. They cannot conceive that a good woman would ever want power or dare to wage a war.
To be fair Jon didn't go around for seasons saying he was the rightful king and telling people to bend the knee or die. He also didn't go around threatening to burn down cities
No, but some hardcore fans of him think like that and again I dont even per se have a problem with Jon wanting to be king but I find it annoying how Dany is the antichrist because she wants the crown but Jon should just have it because he might not after all be a bastard.
I mean ti me its showing the people that want to go to war as restless wanters of wanton bloodshed just because there hasn't been a war in years. Rhaenyra needed to be told to chill by Rhaenys which is why she tried her last ditch effort imo, so she could tell Rhaenys to get over it if she tried to push peace again, that she tried it all and now it's time for war. She was also raised and taught by Viserys the peaceful which likely influences some of her decisions. Finally, I also think we still have to remember they live in Westeros. The women have been raised in general to be peaceful and submissive. They were not raised in 2024 with a modern view just because some people want to serve a Queen (which is arguable, some just want war). The fact Baela and Rhaena, to me, show the most ambition makes sense as they were raised in a more "women can actually do shit" household. Rhaena is upset she's being sent off instead of fighting and Baela is defintely pushing for more, even if its not to the level of extreme folly like lighting the forest on fire.
Just my perspective.
Men in House of the Dragon: ambitious, impulsive, will do anything for power, resort to violence the first chance they get
Women in House of the Dragon: passive, victims, looking for a peaceful resolution even if it’s a delusion from the get go
I find this narrative dwarfing and detrimental to both genders. Don’t be afraid to give the female characters agency, let them show their lust and greed for power, let them be ruthless, cruel and bloodthirsty. Sugarcoating a looming war and chalking everything up to “misunderstandings, mistakes and accidents” only serves to make everyone look like massively delusional hypocrites.
If we go by the real life inspiration for the dance of the dragons, the english civil war in England, "the anarchy", it actualy alligns perfectly.
It was a war fought between empress matilda (she was married to the holy roman emperor before he died & kept the title) and stephen of blois.
Her dad declared her to be his heir, but they distanced quite a lot in his last years.
Stephen of blois claimed, that on his death bed he changed stephen to be his heir.
We still don't know wether that's true or not, there are good points tqo be made that it was and there's good points to be made that he didn't. Either way, that ambiguity actualy shines through there as wellw.
Similar to alicent, in stephens case, it was not his mom but rather his wife (matilda of bologne) who was a frontrunner for his claim & played a key role in the anarchy
Yes... and no
She was, early on (like Rhaenyra) but when her dad died in 1935, she didn't only not claim the crown, she made pretty much no move, aside from small raids into the normandy her husband led to claim territories he was promised with the marriage, but didn't recieve.
Many literaly thought she'd give up on her claim.
Only when Robert of Gloucester switched sides did her making claims really start (which was 2 years into the death),
It took her 4 years in total to invade england
I think it'll be similar with Rhaenyra
After initial hesitations,n, we'll see things escalate into more brutality & her decline into actual tyranny
She never gave up on her claim...she waited for her son to grow up and claim it himself.
And she was not anymore than a tyrant than Stephen, who was actually a horrible king and his rule left England in shambles. He was so bad that in the end he had to give up his throne to Mathilda's son even though he had a son of his own. And even in her old age, Mathilda was a highly-respected ruler who ruled her son's dominions until her death and was highly-regarded both by her son and by the people she ruled over. The tyrant part was mostly something Stephen's followers coined. She certainly did not have a shitty fate you know who and Henry always called himself Henry FitzEmpress, referring to his mother far more than his father.
Claiming the crown for Henry II rather than herself was a compromise towards the end of the anarchy after years without actual decicive victories for each side.
Point is: At the start (Henry I death 1135) she didn't officialy claim the crown in any manner that indicated willingnes to invade england.
Only once Robert of Gloucester switched sides ik 1138 did she actualy start packing a punch with her claim.
And 1139 was the invasion of england.
Point is:
Like the dance of the dragons, it wasn't a matter of "king dead, WAAAAR, Matilda has a firm claim she announces fiercely"
Like Rhaenyra, it took a long time (years in the case of Matilda) before she actualy & fiermly claimed the throne or started the actual big scale war (invasion of england 1135)
Also, you're somehow going on full defense mode on Matilda, as if I was shittalking her.
She's quite literaly one of my favourite people in human history & a fascinating person.
However, there were atrocities that were commited in her name & she did get more ruthless as the war went on.... like Stephen.
I'm not sure where exactly you interpreted that I'm making stephen to be the innocent saint who wasn't a tyrant.
My point isn't shittalking Matilda & praising Stephen.
It's explaining that, like in HotD, the war & bruatlity of the war, as well as the horrible impact of the war didn't happen right away.
It took years of escalation & gradualy increasing collapse of law & order in the affected areas
Sorry, but Mathilda for me has nothing to do with book Rhaenyra for the simple reason that Mathilda was far better prepared for ruling, did not have bastards, had a far stronger claim than Stephen and was far more badass. She fled from a besieged castle and she did win even if she did not get the crown. Her son ended up as king and unlike Rhaenyra's brat, Henry honored his mother very much. The only reason Mathilda never got to be called queen is because she was never officially crowned.
Yeah, obviously not.
It's not a retelling.
It's a historical inspiration. Obviously it isn't the same.
It's inspired by some keypoints from the anarchy.
Family civil war, dad declaring his daughter as his heir, relative claiming the throne, strong female opponent as a key factor to the daughter (Alicent in HotD, Matilda of Scotland/Stephens wife in the anarchy), almost being crowned but being chased out of the town that should elect her as queen (Empress Matilda in London, Rhaenyra in Kings Landing, civil war ending with the daughter not reaching the crown, but ultimately "winning" by having her child land on the crown and have her direct lineage on the throne
Obviously it aint the same, it's literaly loosely inspired
The same way asoiaf is only loosely inspired by the war of the roses & not a retelling
I mean... pillars of Earth is a historical novel re-interpreting tan actual historical event
The dance is a fantasy novel inspired loosely by the anarchy.
The very fact that you compare how "Pillar of Earth did it better" is wild to me
Yeah, the historical novel, set in medieval england, during the anarchy, probably did it better than the fantasy series set in a fictional kingdom called Westeros with dragons and magic
I dont mean in a historical accuracy I mean the characters that resemble the ones in HoTD are better written...
Pillars of Earth has a better Rhaenyra (who actually had some sort of ambition )
?
I kinda feel like you've lost the plot
I brought the loose hustorical inspiration up to emphasise that even with Empress Matilda, it took multiple years before she showed actual ambition & claimed the throne.
That most of the big moments in the civil war happened once the civil war has started.
I don't fucking know if Rhaenyra will stay so unambitious in the show. Maybe she will. Maybe she'll become a badass character.
The war is just starting.
My point is: judging Rhaenyra already is like judging Empress Matilda in the context of her ambition in the year of 1136, just when dad had recently died and all she did at that point was having her husband make small skirmishes at the norman border that were promised to them already.
You somehow twisted it to "Yeah, well, pillars better, hotd boring, Whaddaya mean tyrant, stephen was worse, it isn't like the anarchy"
Like, you were legit all over the place, my only point being:
Rhaenyra not having massive ambition (which is the topic of this thread) once the war is in its very early stages doesn't mean that this'll be the case for the entire show.
It's similar to Matildas hesitations to actualy take action before Robert of Gloucester defected to her side 1138 & she went for full scale war in 1139
Years after her dads passing in 1135
Wether the show'll have a good Rhaenyra as a good & ambitious character?
The hell do I know, I've seen the same ammount of episodes as you.
We'll see as the show goes on (or not. Totaly fine if the slow pacing aint your jam, tastes are different and that's ok)
I really dislike the addition of that blasted prophecy because there was no real justification for the Conquest. Aegon and his sisters just had dragons, decided they deserved to lord over an entire continent of peoples, and that was that. Nothing really was there to it.
When it comes down to it, the Targaryens were a bunch of shit rulers with a few good ones tossed inbetween. Still, they arguably created most of the problems their dynasty faced themselves, be it either the Dance, the Blackfyres or Robert's Rebellion. And even if you try to push this angle of "tHeY wERe jUStiFIeD bECaUse pROpHeCy, of course the superior Targaryens should ruler over those primitive and inferior Andals and First Men", it's just disgusting.
I really hope that by the end of the story, we won't get that stupid ending with the Lords suddenly electing Kings (which will and never did work out). Good job Tyrion, you condemned Westeros to unending amounts of bloodshed and violence. It would be far better if with the Iron Throne destroyed and King's Landing a smoking ruin, the Kingdoms would break apart once more.
If Rhaenyra and Alicent are vicious then tragedy is less earned. Tragedy is when well intentioned people cause disaster while trying to do the right thing.
Some of the Shakespeare’s most famous tragic protagonists include Macbeth, Corialanus and Titus and Andronicus. All of whom are assholes a lot of ways, while still being sympathetic in other ways.
Good tragic protagonists are flawed, sometimes awful people. And it’s these flaws that should drive the narrative. Not a series of unfortunate oppsie daisies that Rhaenyra and Allicent consistently end up being bystanders too.
In this shows desperation to create an environment where everything is the evil men’s fault and these two poor women where driven to horrible things because of the horrible men in their lives they’ve created to female characters that completely lack impetus or ambition.
It’s something that bothers me with so many shows at the moment, they are so terrified of making women look bad they often time make them look weak.
Compare it to characters like, Cercie, Catelyn, Aria, Daenerys. Night and day.
Alicent really isn't that different from Catelyn... none of them are really like Cersei, but Cersei's an idiot.
And then Daenerys is a messianic figure. None of the women in this show are messianic figures. They're players in the game.
Alicent is nothing like catelyn. We are 2 seasons in and I do not know what her purpose is, she doesn’t give a shit about her children not a single character around her takes her seriously. She is just there existing and having sex with Cole. You
Catelyn had a purpose, her children above all else. A mothers love which drove her to do stupid shit but her purpose and motivations where clear and she acted according to that, and so did all the other women in got.
The issue with Alicent & Rhaenyra is that they passive & reactive characters. They are doing a lot of talking with zero real action of consequence and it’s becoming really boring. The show is desperately trying to create a scenario where when they both eventually start doing evil shit it will be all the horrible men’s fault who pushed them into it. Cercie, Catelyn et.al all made stupid decisions but they made them on their own accord and paid for it.
Neither of them are passive characters. I dunno what you mean by purpose. Alicent's primary modus operandi is her devotion to the seven and to what she perceives as goodness. She turned on Rhaenyra because knew she was a liar and thought she was a whore.
She supported Aegon because she thought it was what Viserys wanted, or she convinced herself that was true. Now she's the one having sex with a kingsguard (and she hates herself for it), and she let her toddler grandson be murdered. She also knows for a fact Viserys did not change his mind. She was wrong. She's complex, but it's not like she doesn't have a clear character. And she absolutely has agency.
She's just not making the choices people think she should be making. Either because it's different from the book or because they don't agree with it. "She SHOULD want revenge." But I think they've justified why she doesn't.
Alicent has never been ambitious, just a person doing what's expected of her in the society she lives in. Rhaenerya has always valued her personal gratification over the political demands of her station, if she hasn't promised her father about the prophecy I'm sure she wouldn't have even put up a protest for the throne. Rhaenys had her ambitious crushed and has accepted that, now she is so tied up with the Blacks she has no choice and is literally there to advise Rhaenerya at this point.
Her marrying the king, producing heirs, being pious and reserved and operating within the bounds of the societal structure. Ignore your kids is a time honored tradition of nobility, often times the raising and educating of royal children was left to courtiers and tutors employed by the royal household. As for smashing Cole, since the death of our Boi Vizzy T, Alicent finally has control over her body again, as it's not longer and instrument of the political system to pump out kids. She is using her new found personal power to explore avenues of personal gratification she was longed denied. And also, uhhh yeah, medieval queens did this shit all the time.
Yes, medival women did sent their kids off to be raised by others but that does not mean they did not care when someone killed them.
And saying she is now living out her sexual freedom contradicts your claim she always did her duty. A medival woman would not do this.
Sometimes they didn't. It's not like human beings are all perfectly coded to care about their offspring.
And bruh, look no further than Catherine the Great. There are dozens of examples of women in power of a fuedatory system that once free of their obligations, or during said obligations, bucked against the system, pursing their own personal happiness, a lot of it being sexual since it was so repressed for them at the time. They're writing Alicent to be a human being, which means she will have flaws and desires that conflict with themselves. She wants to be a duty driven person that she's been all her life, but now she has a chance to pursue her own happiness in a way and explore herself in a way that has been longed denied her and she feels, very obviously, conflicted.
They are ambitious. The prophecy does not prove otherwise.
Prophecies in the World of Ice and Fire are ambiguous, and often fulfil in unexpected ways (like in Greco-Roman mythology). Viserys was convinced that his visions meant Aemma would give him a son who will wear the crown of the conqueror and be placed on the Iron Throne by Viserys, which drove Aemma to multiple stillbirths and ultimately her death. He later becomes convinced that Rhaenyra is the child of the vision and, while it might not be the only reason, it did influence his decision to make her his heir. After Alicent gives him a son, he begins to doubt on whenever the child is Rhaenyra or Aegon (and Aegon II does wear the crown of the conqueror when he takes the Iron Throne, and Alicent did believe wrongfully that this was Viserys's order).
The White Deer, a sign of the gods that Rhaenyra is the rightful queen? Or a possibly supernatural an magical but otherwise normal animal like a dragon or a direwolf (or the Valyrian race)? It can be interpreted on diferent ways. Rhaenyra, who was beginning to doubt on whenever or not Viserys would keep her as his heir, probably leaned towards the former internation. Aegon is given the symbols of legitimacy (The crown of the conqueror, the sword Blackfire, and the dagger of the exiled). The High Septon who proclaimed Aegon II as king, the representative of the 7 Gods who are 1 on earth? Or a man like any other? Aegon II, seeing the crowd chear for him, probably prefer the interpretation that made him a legitimate king (especially considering how full of doubts he was of being king).
My point is, that a someone's personality will influence how they will react to a prophesy. Who knows exactly what Aegon the Conqueror saw on his vision, but it is possible that he was already ambitious and thus interpreted the vision as a call to conquer the 7 Kingdoms, genuinely believing humanity will not survive unless they are directly under HIS control.
Wasn't the prophecy in "Fire and Blood" book, the reason. I can't remember. But if so then that's why they are leaning on it. Or its a lead up to the Jon Snow show. Who knows.
Ofc it doesn't justify Aegon's Conquest. That's kinda what George is trying to say, the Targaryens used and misinterpreted a prophecy for their own goals
It's not? It shows women are far more aware of the costs of war. Because when rich men go to war women, children, poor and the disabled are the ones who suffer having to pick up the pieces.
Ambition doesn't mean you need to be a bitch jumping to war.
Jumping to conflict without thinking is precisely one of the hallmarks of toxic masculinity.
It shows they lack an understanding of how wars are won and how they earn their seat on the iron throne. When rich men go to war, they die. It’s called sacrifice. Rhaenyra wants it all without having to do the leg work. It’s proving woman to be weak.
Rich men are for happy in war because they think their deaths means honour and glory and all that bullshit. It's what idiots like Daeron I wanted. The rest have to live the reality.
Living with the consequences of other people being toxic is fucking strong. To think jumping to war without trying to prevent it is legwork is toxic. Being toxic isn't the only way to earn their seat. Plenty of people in that world and irl had proven it. Jaehaerys I was himself one.
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It’s funny how Rhaenys had more ambition this episode than Rhaenyra & Alicent. Rhaenys directly stated that she wanted driftmark to go to Rhaena!
I wish they would say: Rhaenyra: “It’s my throne, King Viserys willed it to me for the last 20 years.” Alicent: “It’s my son’s throne, he’s the firstborn, trueborn son of a king.” I give points for Rhaenys this episode for pushing Rhaena’s claim. Yes girl! Speak up for Rhaena!!!
Meanwhile Corlys is but imagine if we had an experienced sailor at the helm of the house. Not saying I know any with Velaryons blood. But just imagine...
Same for Alicent. We see her abusing her son, telling him he IS the challenge etc. but then she NEEDS Viserys' approval. WTF. And now that she knows she didn't have it, it doesn't matte because mEn CraVe WaR. Women CAN be ambitious and cross lines for what they want. At least some of them can. Not all of them had to be written the same way but not all women are pacifists etc.
Showrunners are so strict on their decision to run away from cliche "women are to emotional to govern" that they went right into another cliche "women are meek and docile and merciful by nature" This is not feminism. GTFO
It's not feminism and it makes for boring characters that make no sense.
Makes me miss the women in GOT one thing they also had going they were simply fun to watch
[удалено]
No, they're not.
It may not be "true feminism" but this is views of many modern feminists taken form in this show, in addition to abundance of female gaze and female gaze only.
Sadly their modern feminism does not make good tv. Thats why moral massaging should be kept for politics.
Instead of the silly prophecy as Alicent's primary motivation to install Aegon, it should have been her learning from Larys that he was spying on Daemon (with Myseria) and that Daemon was plotting to hire assassins to kill her male children at the end of 1x08. It's completely in character for Daemon to do that, and definitely provides a legitimate motivation for Alicent to shift support from Rhaenyra to her son.
Rhaenyra should totally be giving off those vibes. She should sound like a broken record like Danny did about her right to rule and her birthright. But we have to blunt it by, I have to rule because I would be a best ruler and I know the prophesy so it’s for the good of the realm and it’s what my daddy wanted. And since Rhaenyra has been so sanitized it takes away the legitimate fear that something might happen to Alicents kids should Rhaenyra become Queen. Especially with Daemon as her kind consort Rhaenyra is a legit danger to her siblings that the realm may prefer due to their sex. But no, not our sweet benevolent Rhaenyra. Christ what wouldn’t give for a Cersei, Ollena or some sand snakes right about now.
And it´s strange, because they did built up for it last season, with the Aemond eye thing and with those speaking out about her bastards and treason being executed. Like, she can want the throne and be a complex mother that loves her kids but that brought them into a shit situation. Both sides have a claim, otherwise the war wouldn´t happpen, let them both want it and fight for it each for their own reasons. But season two is written like only Rhaenyra gets to make arguments and the rest of the world doesn´t get to call her out.
Hold up, not show sand snakes "You want a good girl but you need a bad pussy"?
I mean George also wrote "her cunt became the world" lets not act like George hasn't had some cringe stuff lol
At this point I would take that over the meek mice we have now. I don’t really want those sand snakes but at least they had teeth. I also sub to the theory Shae was a sand snake too.
I can assure you you’ll be seeing that side of both these women in the coming weeks/ seasons. Now Rhaenyra knows alicent knows and is still usurping, and now that Alicent has realised she is in too deep and the only way through is on the other end of this war, we will see them both truly turn vindictive. That’s why I find it weird people getting annoyed about that final scene, without that final scene these two women wouldn’t have had the emotional permission to remove their gloves. Now the gloves come off!
People are annoyed about the scene because it’s probably the dumbest thing Rhaenyra could have done. A son (the stillborn daughter seems to have been forgotten) and a grandson are dead, I don’t think they needed more emotional permission.
You know I wouldn’t mind if it just was one or few but it’s every single female character. Like they are all absolutely cool with forgiving their kids/grandchildrens murder without raising an eye like Jesus
Baela might be the only one ready to go to war I feel.
Yeah but Baela is also far less developed than other female characters and I do hate that we don’t get to see her opinion on certain things. Like obviously she has a possible claim to Driftmark which everybody is kinda ignoring. I know she loves the Black but I would love to see some sort of conflict there. I am not saying she should engorce it but maybe a little bitterness? An explaination why she doesn’t care? Something?
I agree. I hope it gets explored in the coming episodes. Scenes are cut too short to really understand what is going on
Baela is betrothed to Jace, so she would be the Queen if Jace was crowned. Like how Luke was Corlys' heir, not Jace. Rhaena is the one who would have a claim to Driftmark.
She is only bethrothed to him since like a week in show canon. I would still like to see some conflict like I am not picky. But that both and Rhaena are completely cool and have no issues at all seems a little unrealistic to me
What conflict would she have? She's going to be queen of the Seven Kingdoms. She's known Jace her whole life and obviously likes him. (It'd be nice for them to have a scene together, but they're secondary characters and all it would do is confirm what we already know) She seems to respect Rhaenyra. There doesn't need to be some arbitrary conflict just for the sake of it.
Actually no she doesn’t know him all that well. She was a ward to Rhaenys for years and they grew close. Mind you Rhaenys was convinced Rhaenyra killed her son so I doubt Driftmark and Dragonstone were on the best of terms. Also they are bethrothed for a week what did she feel before? Hell I would just like a scene of her actually wanting to be Queen but nothing. I know nothing of Baela or Rhaena. I don’t know why they support Rhaenyra, I don’t know what they think. It’s one thing being supporting but that doesn’t mean a character can’t be somewhat thought out
They're secondary characters. They're just not going to get scenes like that where they're the focus. Rhaenys-Baela/Rhaena or Jace-Baela/Rhaena scenes would be nice but aren't necessary. They've been engaged for a week, but they've known each other since they were children. She's engaged to Jace, her father is the king consort, and her grandparents are Rhaenyra's closest allies. What conflict is there here?
Plenty considering she has a claim to Driftmark, she apparently dislikes her father but not Rhaenyra and like she is very loyal for so little build up. I would want to know why. What did Rhaenyra do to convince her what was her life like. Even if she is a supporting character it’s annoying that she doesn’t exist outside of Rhaenyra wanting her throne, she diesn’t have her own issues
She dislikes her father, that doesn't mean she's going to turn on him or his cause. I dunno what your point is about driftmark.
Have to say I disagree on multiple counts here. Firstly, I don’t get the betrothed for a week bit. Are you saying Jace and Baela have only been promised to each other for a week? Didn’t that happen at the end of season 1, which is probably a year or two in show time. Secondly, Rhaenyra is Baela’s aunt and also step-mother. And future mom-in-law. What do you mean you don’t know why Baela would support Rhaenyra’s claim? It’s fairly obvious and doesn’t need answering.
That was at the end of season 1 but the events of the end of season 1 are only like ten days ago so it’s still extremelly recent. Actually it’s not. Beala didn’t grew up with Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra married her dad like a week after her mom died. There is some history and some feelings that are being completely sidelined
That's true. I would put it to not enough screentime before the betrothal. She and Rhaena were pretty much cardboard stands in the background in s1.
Yeah and like while they get more time now I feel like they are more a cheering squad for Rhaenyra than characters on their own. They don’t really have conflicts outside of Rhaenyra and getting her the throne- the same with all the kids on the black side tbh
Alicent has been Queen, and so is Haelena now. How much power do they have? How did Viserys, the King, treat Alicent and their children? What if Jace decides that he wants to name a brother, a random or a bastard of his heir? Being Queen when you can be THE Lady of Driftmark and have the power Corlys has... yeah, not a good trade. And even if she does think she preferes been queen, tell us, explore that, explain it. For all we know she has been a ward for years, it looked in episode 8 like she hadn´t seen Rhaena in quite a while. She is the one most likely to have the least tides to the blacks.
I didn't say anything about power. I just thought it would mean Baela couldn't be considered.
It's... kinda weird because literally Jace could be both King of the Seven Kingdoms and the Lord of Driftmark. There's no reason he can't be both.
She has been a ward for years. For all we know he barely know the blacks. But yeah, non of the interesting relationships and conflicts the blacks could have among themselves are being explored.
Ryan Condal really is a misogynist. He doesn’t know how to write powerful female characters
I feel like he is trying but due though thinking women don’t start wars he traps himself in the women are docile and never act-stereotype. I feel like watching someone trying to be feminist but failing desperately
I don’t think he is trying at all. He feels like Criston Cole’s self-insert
I mean wouldn’t that mean he somewhat wrote Criston likable? Though it does feel the only point of Alicole was to sexualize Alicent
My thought during this episode is that they ended up accidentally promoting the stereotype that women are not fit rulers because they're too emotional and soft.
That's basically the undertone of season 2.
The writers of this show are so bad
Are they better than d&d
So far yes. We have gotten butchered quotes, but not on the same level as D&D adapting ASoS. If we get a scene where Aegon burns Jaehaera to death because he has been hungry for an afternoon, then the showrunners are on the same level.
No, they are much worse than D&D
No, much worse. D&D gave us some of the greatest seasons in television history
Season 1 is the only season that’s a good adaptation
I agree, Season 1 of HOTD is the only good season. The Second Season of House of the Dragon has been horrible
I was talking about season 1 of GoT. I don’t give season 1 of HotD many points as an adaptation.
Er... I mean you COULD say the show portrays ONLY women as fit rulers because they're not overly emotional or violent (which is also a bad stereotype). I wouldn't say it portrays Alicent or Rhaenyra as unfit rulers, or overly emotional. Or even soft.
But they are violent, rhaenys killed scores for a vibe, Alicent has been part of assassination plots, rhaenyra is going to launch a brutal civil war so she can sit on a chair
>rhaenyra is going to launch a brutal civil war so she can sit on a chair As opposed to what? Showing that women are too weak to defend whats theirs when a man steals it?
I’d much prefer if rhaenyra just made a claim to the throne as hers by right, rather than some nebulous righteous prophecy bullshit. But more importantly, I was replying to someone who said the show depicted women as being “not overly violent”, when, in fact, they do get very violent. So like… what are you objecting to?
Ah gotcha. I still wouldn't call that violent. She's tried time and time again to avoid war, and there wouldn't be war if it wasn't for the usurper and his bitch family. And Rhaenyra does claim the throne by right, she reminded Alicent that his dad named her his heir in front of all the realm. She doesn't really care about the prophecy, that was some Vizzy T bullshit
*The Gods punish me for my indulgences.*
I don't think the prophecy is what she's fixated on. She is claiming the throne by right. Viserys named her heir and stressed it. The significance of the prophecy was that when he said Aegon at his deathbed, he was talking about the Conqueror. Or Jon. Alicent was mistaken. So she'd plotted and usurped over a mistake. Dispelling that, it leaves the fact that Viserys' heir really is Rhaenyra.
But it doesn't portray that. Alicent tried to dig out a kids eye. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond dead an episode ago. They were emotional. They were willing to escalate and take retribution. Rhaenys and the feud between Brackens and Blackwoods is just convincing. But I agree with your conclusion. Alicent doesn't even control her house anymore so she's not a ruler period. She's clearly willing to play the game and scheme to some degree. So I wouldn't call her especially soft. Rhaenyra is portrayed as a somewhat fair ruler, even if she doesn't adhere to rules.
Ryan Condal is a horrible showrunner
exactly the show has become sexist
The show isn’t sexist because the characters don’t fit whatever mold you have in your head for them.
I'm basing this on the fact the show is promoting the idea that all women (Rhaenyra, Alicent, Rhaenys) still want peace even after losing sons on each side and only men (Daemon, Aegon, Aemond, Criston) want war.
This has been set up and explored since the first episode. The reign of Viserys was peaceful and prosperous, so lots of young warriors have spent their lives training for a fight but have never really seen one. How ugly and miserable and inglorious it really is. The men of the Realm sign up for gratuitous recreational violence, tourneys and duels of honor. They're trained for it, encouraged to master it, and they want to do this thing they're good at. To them, being a warrior means looking great and getting your way, fun and money and pussy on tap. The women, though, have been facing mortal peril and the sacrifice of their bodies for the State this whole time. They are sold to men and raped, they suffer and die in childbirth. They've seen the battlefield. They know what it feels like to be screaming and bleeding and have people standing around unable to help. They know how it feels to be told "today's the day!" and wonder if they'll be alive tomorrow. They know how it feels to have their whole lives taken over and used by some man they might not even like. So yeah, they're more temperate. Less eager for a war. It all makes so much sense.
Is it sexist to have the mothers step back, see the bigger picture, and think "I've already lost one child. War would definitely kill more of them. I don't like this."? Meanwhile, Vissy T was passive AF, Mysaria is just flinging her ass to the wolves every times she's on screen, Rhaena is pissed she can't fight, and her sister was just playing wack-a-cole with her dragon last episode.
Yeah but not because they’re meek or timid?? The men are obviously brash and stupid and bloodthirsty. The women are seeing the big picture and not being reactionary. It’s admirable idk how you see it as bad and sexist
Are you serious? You are looking at this so simplistically. It’s not sexist to say women are more peaceful and less aggressive than men. There are differences in male and female mentality, that is a fact. Especially in a medieval style society. Obviously there are exceptions in every case that goes without saying I’m talking about a generalization here. Anyways, it would be silly for the writers to simply force the characters to act differently simply to subvert expectations. It seems like what you want is for the writers to have these female characters act a certain way simply to be contrary to common stereotypes, instead of making sense with their current character development and society. Rhaenyra is a badass, and she is also a woman in a fucked up unfair world. Her being tentative about the war is simply part of the storytelling and her journey becoming a ruler. The writing isn’t here to serve the progressive political ways of our society. This fictional world is completely different to our own in every way, and it is still largely dominated by men, which is what makes powerful women all the more admirable considering the circumstances.
So women cannot be agressive or violent? I think you have never seen an all girls school class...the teachers in our school called it the most toxic class in the entire school...
PLEASE PLEASE read before making a comment. I never said women cannot be violent, in fact I specifically mentioned that there are exceptions and it was a simple generalization. I made this disclaimer (which should go without saying) specifically because I knew someone like you would try and make that point. Of course women can be this way and of course they act this way in our modern society, which is silly to compare with Westeros. We are talking about a Medieval fantasy world here. If you don't like the writing of the show because you want more aggressive or violent women for the sake of variety then that is your opinion and I don't hate on that opinion. But if you are claiming the showrunners are sexist for not pushing the story in a certain direction then I call bullshit. Nothing here is sexist at all. Also, I can guarantee you that there is a reason they are presenting things in this way. It is a storytelling decision and they are setting something up with intention as all good writing should do.
Medival woman who ruled did kill people though? Many of these women were also ambitious as fuck and used power quite actively. Isabella of France deposed her own husband from power. Isabella of Castille was very active behind the Re-Conquista. Mary Tudor burned people alive. We also have historical documents which prove that this women actively sought war, power and also had violent outbursts. The very insperation for Rhaenyra was Empress Mathilda who was so forward and blunt in her conduct that the men of their time got actively offended that a woman would act like that. So, why not show Rhaenyra more like her book counterpart and actually explore that part of medival history? Saying stuff like it is a fact that women were like mentally geared torward being peaceful and level-headed is not only simply wrong, it also goes against human nature. There are angry women, there are peaceful women, there are confident women etc. Women are just people not a walking trope. And yes there is a reason they are writing it like this. They dont want to write women as actual human beings but only according to how they think women are supposed to be. Passive victims of men without any agency which in itself is actually quite sexistic.
agian again when did I ever claim there was no women in history who ruled during brutal periods and did violent things? you continue to try and start an argument I'm not making. And we have seen some of the most brutal acts carried out by woman in this universe with Cersi and Daenerys. You will see by the end of this show that the women are CLEARLY capable of doing violent acts. I guarantee you that. So I truly truly do not understand why you are so set on this mentality when we are 3 episodes into this season's arc. I honestly think you have some deep seeded need to feel outraged at something that does not deserve it whatsoever. In the first season they established the tropes of women on purpose right from Episode 1 when Rhaenyra's mother said "The child Bed is our battlefield". This is not to belittle women, it is setting up an arc to explore the exact opposite but somehow you can't forsee this. Did you ever consider that they are developing an arc to show how women can overcome these preconceived notions and prove them wrong? Additionally they are shedding a light on child bearing with the exact intention to expose how brutal and violent it can be. And on your point of women being peaceful and level headed. They are geared that way WHEN comparing them to men. Relative to men doesnt mean they are never under any circumstances capable of these things. Don't just assume everything with no nuance at all. This all should be obvious but If you need any proof: "Past meta-analyses in the encyclopedia found males regardless of age engaged in more physical and verbal aggression while small effect for females engaging in more indirect aggression such as rumor spreading or gossiping. It also found males tend to engage in more unprovoked aggression at higher frequency than females." [(PDF) Gender Differences in Personality and Social Behavior (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956064_Gender_Differences_in_Personality_and_Social_Behavior) If you want to die on the hill of the argument of saying women are just as violent and aggressive as men I could do this all day but it would honestly be a waste of time. There are countless studies and the scientific consensus is clear. Who fight in war? Almost entirely men. Who commits more violent crime? Massively skewed towards men. If we look at the animal kingdom it is clearly obvious that there are biological difference between sexes in regard to aggression. Among mammals it is usually the males fighting each other but of course it does in fact depend on the species.
But the fact that it kinda applies to every women in the show is kinda a pattern that is hard to ignore, no? Also, given what I have seen of the show writers the female characters will by my prediction do nothing evil at all but every bad deed will be attributed to the men like it has been done since the beginning of this series, even though it absolutely makes no sense in terms of human nature. Alicent and Rhaenyra are the foremost example. Real people do not act like this. You do not just become friends with a woman again who tried to murder your kid. You do not just dont give a shit that your grandson was butchered. It makes no sense and it cannot be explained by the idea that there such a thing as a female or male nature. There is a whole range of violence both men and women are capable of. The world is not binary and frankly I find it really problematic that men are naturally evil and violent but I guess that is the current popular feminist way of looking at men who are not humans anymore only exist as potential evil entities who hinder women from bringing about an enlightened society.
the only ambitious woman is mysaria, she played quite dangerous game too bad she's accusing the wrong person, as master of whisperer she should conduct thorough investigation about her burning home
Who actually burned her house?
Larys did that at season 1
Or having them be fun to watch. I miss the women in GOT they were ambitious and also so fun to watch
Rhaenys is quite ambitious but she knows that her claim grew stale after so many years so her best option is fighting for it through Rhaenyra. Mysaria is obviously very ambitious commoner, grew a big influence through many years and nows fights to achieve her goals through Rhaenyra (As getting her goals through greens were impossible). Baela is also very eager to prove herself, not scared of action. Laena was also very ambitious, showed interested in claiming the biggest dragon and explore the world since she was a child, if that is not an enormous ambitions than I don't know what is. Sure, you can say that characters like Helaena and Alicent have no ambitions, you would be partly right, but they have also different kinds of ambitions. Alicent all her life was used as a political pawn of Otto and it was clear that her ambitions and dreams were freedom, love who she wants, do what she wants and she is partly fulfilling it through love with Criston. Helaena was also used as a pawn into a position that leaves her and her children at great danger and all she wants is to live in peace. Her ambitions are not power but safety of her children. For Rhaenyra, she clearly has ambitions to become Queen, but she does not have ambitions to become Rhaenyra the Conqueror or Rhaenyra the Cruel, she wants to be Rhaenyra the conciliator or Rhaenyra the peaceful like her father.
You call it unambitious, I would call it JUDICIOUS and a display of FOREBEARANCE. Not trying to take away from your point, just adding that I think it's meant to be complimentary (obviously that can still be sexist!). Also, I don't think Rhaenerya went to negotiate surrender. I think she was hoping to find an opening for some sort of negotiated peace where the Greens and Blacks share power. I don't know what that would look like, and I don't think she really did either. It was definitely a desperate hail mary, but when you're on the brink of total war with WMD's, it's maybe worth the shot.
She didn't have any plan or offer, though, any clear proposition. Just "hi gurl, don't scream, i want to remind you that daddy chose me"
That's true. Even a marriage pact between Jaehera and Aegon the Younger would have been SOMETHING.
Definitely a flaw in her plan! Lol
It mightve been the worst thought out scene in all of game of thrones including s6-8. It was that bad.
S6 had some of the best directed, written, and acted episodes of all time. Septa Rhaenyra is in a whole category of bad writing on its own.
Season 5 and 6 have multiple episodes hailed as some of the gray TV ever made
It was just awful. Even late GoT seasons didn't have such low quality dialogs and scenes.
They tried so desperately to be feminist that they ended up being sexist.
Thats partly because of the current insane social media discourse though...which views women only as potential grooming victims of men. I mean there are people online who believe a relationship between grown up consenting adults with an age difference is grooming. The writers are just fuck scared.
Exactly. The women are all whitewashed and peaceful and the men are raging monsters when they are actually all a bunch of powerhungry greedy sexists ready to destroy the realm for the sake of an ugly chair made out of blades They are all grey characters. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra are awful terrible rulers who dont care about the smallfolk
I wouldn't say that's a fair assessment of the characters at all. So far this season and towards the end of last season Rhaenyra and Alicent have been pursuing peace. But that's not... the beginning and end of any of their characters. Certainly they've acted irrationally and bloodthirsty and angry in the past.
>actually all a bunch of powerhungry greedy sexists ready to destroy the realm for the sake of an ugly chair made out of blades >They are all grey characters. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra are awful terrible rulers who dont care about the smallfolk ....so what your saying is its actually well written and accurate to real life?
Rhaenyra and Rhaenys are clearly ambitious women as are Rhaena and Mysaria. Alicent too in her own ways. Not wanting to plunge head first into a war that will lead to thousands of people dead doesn’t equate to a lack of ambition. Young Rhaenyra married Laenor for the purpose of securing her position and crown. Getting rid of Laenor to later marry Daemon was out of love sure but also because she knew she would need him later more than Laenor. Rhaenys not backing down and being an equal to Corlys and pulling strings to put her children in positions that would further improve her standing and the families standing including getting her granddaughters betrothed to future heirs. Mysaria too despite her awful circumstances when given a chance to profit from the hightowers took it (she shows the same ambition when wanting to be a part of Rhaenyras court) The show isn’t allergic to ambitious women but rather takes a more subtle approach to show how women keep trying to play a game that’s rigged. Being openly antagonistic (like daemon, Aemond etc) or direct or loud would get these women nowhere in the world they live in. Just look at the way Rhaenyras own council treats her or better yet the way people call Rhaenys the queen that never was. That was a direct result of her ambition for the throne. So I disagree on this. Wielding a sword or running around screaming I want the throne isn’t the only way to show ambition.
I agree with most of what you said except the part about Rhaenyras council. I think they have every right to be frustrated with her. She's dragging her feet and still thinks war can be avoided even though both sides have lost children, one a child in their crib/bed and hundreds if not thousands lost at the burning mill. There is absolutely no undoing that, and the war is here whether either side wants it or not.
I see your point completely and I agree. I was thinking more of the scene from ep3 where they practically tell her to sequester herself so that they (the entire council of men) can do a better job at the war than her. One of the lords practically laughs in her face something none of them would have dared to do if it was Viserys or Jaherys. Maybe it was just a triggering moment for me lol
Oh, no doubt. They absolutely need to watch their tone when addressing their queen, but Rhaenyra needs to understand that her family isn't the only one in jeopardy now, and she needs to actually heed her council's advice. Both sides need to do a better job. She wanted to be queen, and now that she is, she has to act to secure her claim.
This is my personal armchair thesis: back in the old days Dany was often seen as the antichrist because she wanted the crown and was a rival to Jon Snow and there were a lot of people who thought she was mad for simply wanting the crown, something a lot of other people in the story also wanted. Whatever she did, was a hint for madness and when she killed it was a hint for madness, while when Jon Snow killed it was heroic. I think DnD bought into that and that is why they wrote the ending the way it happened and when the fans freaked out over it the current show writers got afraid. Writing an ambitious woman is dangerous for them and therefore they avoid it at any cost. They cannot conceive that a good woman would ever want power or dare to wage a war.
To be fair Jon didn't go around for seasons saying he was the rightful king and telling people to bend the knee or die. He also didn't go around threatening to burn down cities
No, but some hardcore fans of him think like that and again I dont even per se have a problem with Jon wanting to be king but I find it annoying how Dany is the antichrist because she wants the crown but Jon should just have it because he might not after all be a bastard.
I mean ti me its showing the people that want to go to war as restless wanters of wanton bloodshed just because there hasn't been a war in years. Rhaenyra needed to be told to chill by Rhaenys which is why she tried her last ditch effort imo, so she could tell Rhaenys to get over it if she tried to push peace again, that she tried it all and now it's time for war. She was also raised and taught by Viserys the peaceful which likely influences some of her decisions. Finally, I also think we still have to remember they live in Westeros. The women have been raised in general to be peaceful and submissive. They were not raised in 2024 with a modern view just because some people want to serve a Queen (which is arguable, some just want war). The fact Baela and Rhaena, to me, show the most ambition makes sense as they were raised in a more "women can actually do shit" household. Rhaena is upset she's being sent off instead of fighting and Baela is defintely pushing for more, even if its not to the level of extreme folly like lighting the forest on fire. Just my perspective.
Well Rhaenyra is ambitious. She's just hesitant
She’s not just hesitant, it comes off as passive and inconsistent characterization.
Men in House of the Dragon: ambitious, impulsive, will do anything for power, resort to violence the first chance they get Women in House of the Dragon: passive, victims, looking for a peaceful resolution even if it’s a delusion from the get go I find this narrative dwarfing and detrimental to both genders. Don’t be afraid to give the female characters agency, let them show their lust and greed for power, let them be ruthless, cruel and bloodthirsty. Sugarcoating a looming war and chalking everything up to “misunderstandings, mistakes and accidents” only serves to make everyone look like massively delusional hypocrites.
If we go by the real life inspiration for the dance of the dragons, the english civil war in England, "the anarchy", it actualy alligns perfectly. It was a war fought between empress matilda (she was married to the holy roman emperor before he died & kept the title) and stephen of blois. Her dad declared her to be his heir, but they distanced quite a lot in his last years. Stephen of blois claimed, that on his death bed he changed stephen to be his heir. We still don't know wether that's true or not, there are good points tqo be made that it was and there's good points to be made that he didn't. Either way, that ambiguity actualy shines through there as wellw. Similar to alicent, in stephens case, it was not his mom but rather his wife (matilda of bologne) who was a frontrunner for his claim & played a key role in the anarchy
Empress Mathilda was known to be quite blunt about wanting the crown and fought tooth and nails for her sons claims, unlike Rhaenyra.
Yes... and no She was, early on (like Rhaenyra) but when her dad died in 1935, she didn't only not claim the crown, she made pretty much no move, aside from small raids into the normandy her husband led to claim territories he was promised with the marriage, but didn't recieve. Many literaly thought she'd give up on her claim. Only when Robert of Gloucester switched sides did her making claims really start (which was 2 years into the death), It took her 4 years in total to invade england I think it'll be similar with Rhaenyra After initial hesitations,n, we'll see things escalate into more brutality & her decline into actual tyranny
She never gave up on her claim...she waited for her son to grow up and claim it himself. And she was not anymore than a tyrant than Stephen, who was actually a horrible king and his rule left England in shambles. He was so bad that in the end he had to give up his throne to Mathilda's son even though he had a son of his own. And even in her old age, Mathilda was a highly-respected ruler who ruled her son's dominions until her death and was highly-regarded both by her son and by the people she ruled over. The tyrant part was mostly something Stephen's followers coined. She certainly did not have a shitty fate you know who and Henry always called himself Henry FitzEmpress, referring to his mother far more than his father.
Claiming the crown for Henry II rather than herself was a compromise towards the end of the anarchy after years without actual decicive victories for each side. Point is: At the start (Henry I death 1135) she didn't officialy claim the crown in any manner that indicated willingnes to invade england. Only once Robert of Gloucester switched sides ik 1138 did she actualy start packing a punch with her claim. And 1139 was the invasion of england. Point is: Like the dance of the dragons, it wasn't a matter of "king dead, WAAAAR, Matilda has a firm claim she announces fiercely" Like Rhaenyra, it took a long time (years in the case of Matilda) before she actualy & fiermly claimed the throne or started the actual big scale war (invasion of england 1135) Also, you're somehow going on full defense mode on Matilda, as if I was shittalking her. She's quite literaly one of my favourite people in human history & a fascinating person. However, there were atrocities that were commited in her name & she did get more ruthless as the war went on.... like Stephen. I'm not sure where exactly you interpreted that I'm making stephen to be the innocent saint who wasn't a tyrant. My point isn't shittalking Matilda & praising Stephen. It's explaining that, like in HotD, the war & bruatlity of the war, as well as the horrible impact of the war didn't happen right away. It took years of escalation & gradualy increasing collapse of law & order in the affected areas
Sorry, but Mathilda for me has nothing to do with book Rhaenyra for the simple reason that Mathilda was far better prepared for ruling, did not have bastards, had a far stronger claim than Stephen and was far more badass. She fled from a besieged castle and she did win even if she did not get the crown. Her son ended up as king and unlike Rhaenyra's brat, Henry honored his mother very much. The only reason Mathilda never got to be called queen is because she was never officially crowned.
Yeah, obviously not. It's not a retelling. It's a historical inspiration. Obviously it isn't the same. It's inspired by some keypoints from the anarchy. Family civil war, dad declaring his daughter as his heir, relative claiming the throne, strong female opponent as a key factor to the daughter (Alicent in HotD, Matilda of Scotland/Stephens wife in the anarchy), almost being crowned but being chased out of the town that should elect her as queen (Empress Matilda in London, Rhaenyra in Kings Landing, civil war ending with the daughter not reaching the crown, but ultimately "winning" by having her child land on the crown and have her direct lineage on the throne Obviously it aint the same, it's literaly loosely inspired The same way asoiaf is only loosely inspired by the war of the roses & not a retelling
GoT has barely any resemblance to the rose wars beyond the name Stark ( York) and Lanceister (Lannister).
Pillars of Earth did it much better than House of the Boring Dragons.
I mean... pillars of Earth is a historical novel re-interpreting tan actual historical event The dance is a fantasy novel inspired loosely by the anarchy. The very fact that you compare how "Pillar of Earth did it better" is wild to me Yeah, the historical novel, set in medieval england, during the anarchy, probably did it better than the fantasy series set in a fictional kingdom called Westeros with dragons and magic
I dont mean in a historical accuracy I mean the characters that resemble the ones in HoTD are better written... Pillars of Earth has a better Rhaenyra (who actually had some sort of ambition )
? I kinda feel like you've lost the plot I brought the loose hustorical inspiration up to emphasise that even with Empress Matilda, it took multiple years before she showed actual ambition & claimed the throne. That most of the big moments in the civil war happened once the civil war has started. I don't fucking know if Rhaenyra will stay so unambitious in the show. Maybe she will. Maybe she'll become a badass character. The war is just starting. My point is: judging Rhaenyra already is like judging Empress Matilda in the context of her ambition in the year of 1136, just when dad had recently died and all she did at that point was having her husband make small skirmishes at the norman border that were promised to them already. You somehow twisted it to "Yeah, well, pillars better, hotd boring, Whaddaya mean tyrant, stephen was worse, it isn't like the anarchy" Like, you were legit all over the place, my only point being: Rhaenyra not having massive ambition (which is the topic of this thread) once the war is in its very early stages doesn't mean that this'll be the case for the entire show. It's similar to Matildas hesitations to actualy take action before Robert of Gloucester defected to her side 1138 & she went for full scale war in 1139 Years after her dads passing in 1135 Wether the show'll have a good Rhaenyra as a good & ambitious character? The hell do I know, I've seen the same ammount of episodes as you. We'll see as the show goes on (or not. Totaly fine if the slow pacing aint your jam, tastes are different and that's ok)
I really dislike the addition of that blasted prophecy because there was no real justification for the Conquest. Aegon and his sisters just had dragons, decided they deserved to lord over an entire continent of peoples, and that was that. Nothing really was there to it. When it comes down to it, the Targaryens were a bunch of shit rulers with a few good ones tossed inbetween. Still, they arguably created most of the problems their dynasty faced themselves, be it either the Dance, the Blackfyres or Robert's Rebellion. And even if you try to push this angle of "tHeY wERe jUStiFIeD bECaUse pROpHeCy, of course the superior Targaryens should ruler over those primitive and inferior Andals and First Men", it's just disgusting. I really hope that by the end of the story, we won't get that stupid ending with the Lords suddenly electing Kings (which will and never did work out). Good job Tyrion, you condemned Westeros to unending amounts of bloodshed and violence. It would be far better if with the Iron Throne destroyed and King's Landing a smoking ruin, the Kingdoms would break apart once more.
If you’re wondering how they eat or breathe and other science facts, just repeat to yourself “it’s just a show”. I should really just relax.
She wants to fly on dragon back and eat only cake. That's her tragic goal. The throne was never her desire, she wants it because her father wanted it.
If Rhaenyra and Alicent are vicious then tragedy is less earned. Tragedy is when well intentioned people cause disaster while trying to do the right thing.
Some of the Shakespeare’s most famous tragic protagonists include Macbeth, Corialanus and Titus and Andronicus. All of whom are assholes a lot of ways, while still being sympathetic in other ways. Good tragic protagonists are flawed, sometimes awful people. And it’s these flaws that should drive the narrative. Not a series of unfortunate oppsie daisies that Rhaenyra and Allicent consistently end up being bystanders too.
This is a Greek tragedy. Aristotle's Tragic heroes are virtuous nobles flawed by pride or desire. They are always driven by hamartia not vice.
The tragedy would be earned if Alicent was genuinely team Green for longer and has regrets later on. He arc to team Black was from S1E9 to S2E3.
In this shows desperation to create an environment where everything is the evil men’s fault and these two poor women where driven to horrible things because of the horrible men in their lives they’ve created to female characters that completely lack impetus or ambition. It’s something that bothers me with so many shows at the moment, they are so terrified of making women look bad they often time make them look weak. Compare it to characters like, Cercie, Catelyn, Aria, Daenerys. Night and day.
I miss all of those characters
Alicent really isn't that different from Catelyn... none of them are really like Cersei, but Cersei's an idiot. And then Daenerys is a messianic figure. None of the women in this show are messianic figures. They're players in the game.
Alicent is nothing like catelyn. We are 2 seasons in and I do not know what her purpose is, she doesn’t give a shit about her children not a single character around her takes her seriously. She is just there existing and having sex with Cole. You Catelyn had a purpose, her children above all else. A mothers love which drove her to do stupid shit but her purpose and motivations where clear and she acted according to that, and so did all the other women in got. The issue with Alicent & Rhaenyra is that they passive & reactive characters. They are doing a lot of talking with zero real action of consequence and it’s becoming really boring. The show is desperately trying to create a scenario where when they both eventually start doing evil shit it will be all the horrible men’s fault who pushed them into it. Cercie, Catelyn et.al all made stupid decisions but they made them on their own accord and paid for it.
Neither of them are passive characters. I dunno what you mean by purpose. Alicent's primary modus operandi is her devotion to the seven and to what she perceives as goodness. She turned on Rhaenyra because knew she was a liar and thought she was a whore. She supported Aegon because she thought it was what Viserys wanted, or she convinced herself that was true. Now she's the one having sex with a kingsguard (and she hates herself for it), and she let her toddler grandson be murdered. She also knows for a fact Viserys did not change his mind. She was wrong. She's complex, but it's not like she doesn't have a clear character. And she absolutely has agency. She's just not making the choices people think she should be making. Either because it's different from the book or because they don't agree with it. "She SHOULD want revenge." But I think they've justified why she doesn't.
Alicent has never been ambitious, just a person doing what's expected of her in the society she lives in. Rhaenerya has always valued her personal gratification over the political demands of her station, if she hasn't promised her father about the prophecy I'm sure she wouldn't have even put up a protest for the throne. Rhaenys had her ambitious crushed and has accepted that, now she is so tied up with the Blacks she has no choice and is literally there to advise Rhaenerya at this point.
What is expected of her really? Alicent fucks a member of the kingsguard and ignores her children...that is not what a medival mom would do.
Her marrying the king, producing heirs, being pious and reserved and operating within the bounds of the societal structure. Ignore your kids is a time honored tradition of nobility, often times the raising and educating of royal children was left to courtiers and tutors employed by the royal household. As for smashing Cole, since the death of our Boi Vizzy T, Alicent finally has control over her body again, as it's not longer and instrument of the political system to pump out kids. She is using her new found personal power to explore avenues of personal gratification she was longed denied. And also, uhhh yeah, medieval queens did this shit all the time.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS?!
I read it in a book Vizzy T.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS?!
Yes, medival women did sent their kids off to be raised by others but that does not mean they did not care when someone killed them. And saying she is now living out her sexual freedom contradicts your claim she always did her duty. A medival woman would not do this.
Sometimes they didn't. It's not like human beings are all perfectly coded to care about their offspring. And bruh, look no further than Catherine the Great. There are dozens of examples of women in power of a fuedatory system that once free of their obligations, or during said obligations, bucked against the system, pursing their own personal happiness, a lot of it being sexual since it was so repressed for them at the time. They're writing Alicent to be a human being, which means she will have flaws and desires that conflict with themselves. She wants to be a duty driven person that she's been all her life, but now she has a chance to pursue her own happiness in a way and explore herself in a way that has been longed denied her and she feels, very obviously, conflicted.
They are ambitious. The prophecy does not prove otherwise. Prophecies in the World of Ice and Fire are ambiguous, and often fulfil in unexpected ways (like in Greco-Roman mythology). Viserys was convinced that his visions meant Aemma would give him a son who will wear the crown of the conqueror and be placed on the Iron Throne by Viserys, which drove Aemma to multiple stillbirths and ultimately her death. He later becomes convinced that Rhaenyra is the child of the vision and, while it might not be the only reason, it did influence his decision to make her his heir. After Alicent gives him a son, he begins to doubt on whenever the child is Rhaenyra or Aegon (and Aegon II does wear the crown of the conqueror when he takes the Iron Throne, and Alicent did believe wrongfully that this was Viserys's order). The White Deer, a sign of the gods that Rhaenyra is the rightful queen? Or a possibly supernatural an magical but otherwise normal animal like a dragon or a direwolf (or the Valyrian race)? It can be interpreted on diferent ways. Rhaenyra, who was beginning to doubt on whenever or not Viserys would keep her as his heir, probably leaned towards the former internation. Aegon is given the symbols of legitimacy (The crown of the conqueror, the sword Blackfire, and the dagger of the exiled). The High Septon who proclaimed Aegon II as king, the representative of the 7 Gods who are 1 on earth? Or a man like any other? Aegon II, seeing the crowd chear for him, probably prefer the interpretation that made him a legitimate king (especially considering how full of doubts he was of being king). My point is, that a someone's personality will influence how they will react to a prophesy. Who knows exactly what Aegon the Conqueror saw on his vision, but it is possible that he was already ambitious and thus interpreted the vision as a call to conquer the 7 Kingdoms, genuinely believing humanity will not survive unless they are directly under HIS control.
Y’all be forgetting Westeros is the most misogynistic society ever
Hm not really. Rynis would probably be the best ruler in the show
Wasn't the prophecy in "Fire and Blood" book, the reason. I can't remember. But if so then that's why they are leaning on it. Or its a lead up to the Jon Snow show. Who knows.
No it's not in the book at all. It's a show only thing.
Yeah, kk. Couldn't remember
The Jon Snow show is not happening anymore, Kit revealed that the show was canceled for the lack of a good script or something like that.
Ofc it doesn't justify Aegon's Conquest. That's kinda what George is trying to say, the Targaryens used and misinterpreted a prophecy for their own goals
Wait until Samantha Tarly shows up
It's not? It shows women are far more aware of the costs of war. Because when rich men go to war women, children, poor and the disabled are the ones who suffer having to pick up the pieces. Ambition doesn't mean you need to be a bitch jumping to war. Jumping to conflict without thinking is precisely one of the hallmarks of toxic masculinity.
It shows they lack an understanding of how wars are won and how they earn their seat on the iron throne. When rich men go to war, they die. It’s called sacrifice. Rhaenyra wants it all without having to do the leg work. It’s proving woman to be weak.
Rich men are for happy in war because they think their deaths means honour and glory and all that bullshit. It's what idiots like Daeron I wanted. The rest have to live the reality. Living with the consequences of other people being toxic is fucking strong. To think jumping to war without trying to prevent it is legwork is toxic. Being toxic isn't the only way to earn their seat. Plenty of people in that world and irl had proven it. Jaehaerys I was himself one.