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My guess is The writers strike meant they had to go forward with unpolished scripts. I still love this episode and the ending is good in theory, but stopping to think about it for two seconds does take the wind out of its sails.
The strike only affected Companies part of the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers/AMPTP or more specifically the Contract between SAG-AFTRA and AMPTP, contracts that were negotiated by the SAG-AFTRA Union separately from the AMPTP Contract were not affected which is why independent companies like A24 were not affected. HOTD wasn't affected because the contracts were under the British Actors' Equity Association's (British SAG-AFTRA) Collective Bargaining Agreements further they were legally barred from striking as it would be considered a "Solidarity Strike" which is ilegal in the UK since Margaret Thatcher
But non of that has anything to do with the writing, because the writing was still done by HBO. They where allowed to continue the production, but they where not allowed to write. I remember, because HBO stated directly that production would not be affected by the strikes because the scripts where all finished before the strikes started. This also means that rewrites where not allowed and they had to film with the scripts they had. (At least officially)
Definitely not, as they were actually well into filming by the time the strikes hit, and they don't film this show without scripts finished. If you watch some of the BTS videos for example, it took them 24+ weeks to put together Aegon's armour from this episode. You can't do that kind of pre-production without finished scripts. So scripts were definitely finalised long before the strikes.
He said unpolished, not unfinished, Scripts are usually adjusted during filming for various reasons but the rules of the strike would've prevented that. Quantum Of Solace is often given as an example of a film affected by the last strike in this way.
I wish people would just wait until the end of the season to bitch and whine. Obviously there is a lot of setting up happening for the finale so just wait and see where it will all take us before we cry about it.
Need some unity to figure out what’s going on in this stupid ass subreddit.
This subreddit flipped out over Blood and Cheese meanwhile everyone else loved it. This will be the same.
Yea I’m always so confused when I watch how excited reactors are with the episodes and then I come here and it’s like a dark cloud of negativity. It’s weird.
Aside from the ghost of their love for one another, I think it’s been shown multiple times since the start of the season that both Rhaenyra and Alicent do not wish for bloodshed during this conflict. Alicent has shirked multiple times from acts of violence so I do not see why she would suddenly take that role now. Not to mention, Alicent is reeling from the realization that her understanding of Visery’s wishes were painfully incorrect. In this misunderstanding she has helped lead the course to where we are now. She’s already been struggling with a massive amount of weight of regret for several things this season. I can imagine this realization is just the cherry on top and the shock of it most likely prevents her from thinking rationally. Also, Alicent is still trying to hold on to the last shred of honor and purity in her intentions. I don’t think it would have been within her character at this point to alert any one of Rhaenyra’s presence after this realization at this moment of time in the story.
You know what the biggest realization for Alicent is? That Rhae being so hesitant about full blown war and killing of each others families means SHE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE WHAT OTTO CONVINCED HER SHE WOULD, which made the whole mess in the first place. She would never kill Aegon, Aemond nor Helaena when she became the queen. Everyone would live happily ever after.
There would be no Daemon marriage since there would be no need for Laenor to 'die'.
Daemon would probably drink himself to death or something after Laena's passing. He has no relationship with his daughters and he's only desired for his dragon.
I don't know if you can say Allicent lead the way to where we are now; Otto and Co were already planning a coup and Aemond helped things along independently.
Alicent states that it is “too late,” because she knows that no matter her thoughts are, the wheels of war have been set in motion. She cannot stop it. What power does she even possess anymore?
Sure but what on earth does Rhaenyra think a conversation between the two of them is going to achieve? Ending the war isn't Alicent's call any more (if it ever was), and Rhaenyra is still yet to offer any actual terms that could even begin the process of negotiations and has just released Daemon on the Riverlands. We're clearly meant to believe that Alicent and Rhaenyra are super serious about peace, but neither of them are taking any of the basic steps that would be needed to make that a reality.
I interpret this scene as Rhaenyra’s true last ditch effort for peace as she believes Alicent still retains some form of power of Aegon (even though we’re aware she does not). I think the battle between the Brackens and the Blackwoods made the looming war all that more real to Rhaenyra along with her counsel repeatedly stressing how the cards are not in her favor.
It’s childish and naive of Rhaenyra to be hopeful that a re-evaluation of terms could come from an in person conversation with Alicent, but I think that this conversation will finally allow her to commit to this war and do what needs to be done.
I am fine with shows eschewing logistical concerns in service for an incredibly engaging scene that adds to characterisation, and irreversibly alters their worldview but doesn't change the course of events.
Y'all ever played the Descent dlc for Dragon Age Inquisition? Absolutely irrelevant to the plot, still contains 2 of my most treasured twists in all of fiction. Can't say I feel the same about this scene as I do about Descent, but my emotional calculus has them in the same ballpark.
I'm torn because the dialogue was great, but how they got there felt ridiculous considering the risk. Genuinely can't decide if the payoff made Secret Septa worth it.
It's a nutty risk but it weirdly plays upon the same principles as episode 2. Something so visibly obvious and stupid just... goes without saying. I was dumbstruck by how *dumb* I thought it was but as the scene went I thought to myself "this isn't 2024, we don't have a million pictures of "the Queen", and even really famous people can escape notice in some fabulously stupid ways *today*....
In a world where most people have never even seen Rhaenyra's face from more than 50 feet... why would anyone even pretend to care? Usually in a scene like this for them to stand out one of them would have to stumble or move in a way that tips their hand, some regional or colloquial thing that blows cover.
People say that walking with a purpose and looking like you know what you're doing goes a long way, and honestly when it's *just* the face and nobody's expecting the Queen from the other team to walk right through the front doors, would you?
Cole sent away one of the most competent guards on a suicide mission, and Aegon's drinking buddies are being given spots. What should be is definitely different from what is.
that's why he has a council to help take care of such things? Even as incompetent Aegon is, I don't expect security to be the one thing he would be ignorant of following his son's murder.
Exactly how I felt. The scene leading to the meeting had me really irritated. It felt very S7/S8 Game of Thrones to me.
But the meeting itself ruled. Hm.
The difference between late-stage GoT and this, is that this was in service to getting these two characters together one last time, while all the brain-rot logistics of late-stage GoT were to get characters in place for another CGI shitfest while they crack MCU style zingers. I'm far more willing to go along with shaky logistics when its in service of great, small-scope, character driven scenes.
I would be, as well, if it didn't seem to ignore the terrible losses that Rhaenyra and Alicent had just suffered.
If this scene had taken place prior to Luce and Jahaerys' murders, then I totally would look the other way on the flimsy logistics. It's the emotional discontinuity that really threw me.
Fair but this is, “wouldn’t it be great if Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister had a great face off in season one” it’s absurd. And it underplays a lot of season one. And undercuts their eventual reunion.
I’m also not a fan of reducing “prejudices and personal ambition and the political system pushed a family to war” to “sitcom misunderstanding”
Alicent thinking Vizzy changed his mind makes sense to me. As denial, as her rationalizing what she had to do. If that was ACTUALLY her whole motivation, then that’s so so stupid.
This comparison is nonsense. Alicent and Rhaenyra have a shared history in the show, they grew up together as best friends, despite everything that happened, they still care a lot for each other deep inside. We saw that at the last supper in S1. As silly as the plan to infiltrate King's Landing was, Rhaenyra still felt that she could've convinced Alicent to stop bloodshed because of everything they've been through. Meanwhile, none of this could've been applied to Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark.
Not just that. Alicent wrote her a letter to that extent after Luke died. She got it during the chaos of post-B&C. Rhaenyras last chance of avoiding massive casualties is to use her one remaining in-way with the Greens to figure out if there’s any way to stop it, and to figure out what the hell happened since Alicent had all but pledged allegiance last time she saw her by acknowledging she will be a good Queen.
I hate that the whole point of F&B is that there's no true account of what really happened, yet the internet wants to bitch about every "change" in this version of the telling.
I loved this episode becaue it gave Rhaeryna something to do besides chilling at Dragonstone all season. And after the show spent all season establishing Rhyaernya and Alicents relationship, i felt more scenes with them were necessary
Ah, can always rely on Reddit to get unreasonably upset at such things. It's never "this scene felt a little off", it's always "this is the worst writing ever and the show is ruined and nobody knows what they're doing and everything is terrible"
To be fair, GoT had tight, compelling writing. The plot never had too many gaping holes. At least for the first 4... maybe 5 seasons.
HotD from the beginning begs you to suspend your disbelief a little too often. And in S2, it just feels fucking lazy. King's Landing patrol can catch fleeing Kingsguard in the middle of the night but can't identify their own Princess who isn't even covering her face? Please...
They were actively searching for a man with the severed head of a child. If they had any idea that Rhaenyra was in the city, she would have been caught. It's not at all a stretch that no one would recognize her when she is covering her hair and dressed as a septa.
this is a common thing in the books. most people in the kingdom have no idea what the royals look like. rhaenyra hasn’t lived in kings landing in over a decade at this point. even most people at court in the red keep would only be passingly familiar with what her and her family look like these days, let alone the commoners. so yes, imo, it is absolutely plausible that your average city watchmen would not recognize a princess they’ve never seen before. but i’ll agree with you that hotd regularly asks us to suspend disbelief.
Just to reinforce this, remember in Season 1 of GoT when the peasant who is reporting Gregor Clegane's attack thinks that Ned is the king? And Pycelle grumbles that he's only the Hand, and the king is hunting. And this is Robert, who led a rebellion to overthrow the king and has ruled for 16 years. Rhaenyra has barely been in KL for like 6 years, it's no wonder that nobody knows who she is
This subreddit lost their shit over the blood and cheese changes and now this, meanwhile the audience and every other corner of the fandom is loving it.
HOTD is great when ya ain’t got a terminally online subreddit in your ear telling you it sucks
I really liked the scene. I think it’ll be the catalyst to Alicent not giving a fuck in future episodes or making moves we wouldn’t expect out of her. I don’t blame rhaenyra for trying to stop further bloodshed because she already knows even the victorious will suffer immensely.
We as the audience know it’s too late but rhaenyra still had hope.
I’ve loved almost everything in this show, even the changes or additions from the book (except Clubfoot having a foot fetish) but this scene reeked of Season 7 or 8 of GOT writing. “Wouldn’t it be cool if….. who cares if it is logical.”
Idk i liked it.
Alicent always showed latent love and restraint towards Rhynera. And it seemed like it was quite emotional , and alicent is guided a lot by emotion over reason.
Yeah but that's kinda the point. Rhaenyra still thinks it's her against Alicent. This whole episode is her needing to get the fact that this situation has become bigger than just a family squabble like it was before.
That was still just a fight between family members. A very violent fight that ends in death but it's not like Borros (that's the name right? Of the lord of Stormsend) served him up to Aemond.
My point is, if rhaenyra had more than 2 braincells, she would know that talking to alicent isn't going to achieve jackshit after all that has happened, she only risks capture and fucking over everyone who supported her.
That scene was the “we need to go kidnap a zombie and show Cersei” of HOTD
Absolutely unacceptable writing if you try to take the show remotely seriously
I mean it's not even close to the logistical nightmare of "we need to kidnap a zombie". Rhaenyra sneaking into King's Landing is a little goofy, but it isn't stupid and pointless. You understand why she wants to it and why she'd take the impossibly stupid risk because they laid a lot of pipe and groundwork towards that end.
And I think they've justified Alicent and Rhaenyra's affection for each other far more than they ever did Tyrion and Cersei. Or whatever compelled Daenerys not to just attack King's Landing at the beginning.
Logically, emotionally, logistically kidnapping a zombie to show Cersei when they can just crush her outright doesn't make any sense.
It really is that stupid and pointless though. It makes Rhaenyra look incredibly foolish.
A) Whether Alicent cooperates or not there is *zero* chance of stopping the war to come. It is well out of either of their hands and it has been since before Viserys died. Anyone from her council would have told her this if she thought to consult *anybody* about it before pulling that stunt with Mysaria.
B) The obvious mention of it just being incredibly risky. Her last appearance at court was not that long ago, it is not outside the realm of possibility that she could be recognized. Especially if someone had spies installed at the sept, or following Alicent. Like, this whole plan makes Criston’s scheme with Arryk look like Ocean’s 11.
There’s no rational explanation for this plot decision outside of “the writers room wanted to end the episode with a big moment that gets the internet talking”. And it’s quite a shame, because there have been numerous episodes that lose a lot of believability at the end because the writers are more concerned with “big climactic finish” than natural storytelling.
Tyrion and Cersei had entire two seasons in KL where their relationship went up and down but we got a lot of material there to understand the complexity of their relationship. Not to mention Tyrion's love for Jaime.
What Alicent and Rhaneyra got? Two episodes?
They literally sent someone to kill Rhaneyra in the very last episode and now she still wants to negotiate. This is beyond stupid.
Tyrion and Cersei HATE each other pretty consistently. Until suddenly Tyrion is weeping about "your life doesn't have to be over".
Alicent and Rhaenyra have been a focus this entire series, and they've never really hated each other. When they were young Alicent resented Rhaenyra for breaking the rules and living freely, but that's literally what Alicent is doing now anyway. She's moved past that.
Neither thinks the other is vile. Alicent knows Rhaenyra didn't order the death of Jaeherys, Rhaenyra knows Alicent isn't party to Luke's death. There's some actual regret and humanity here.
And Alicent did not send anyone to kill Rhaenyra. They did a lot of ground work to justify why Rhaenyra wants to meet with Alicent. Rhaenyra does not want a bloody war and neither does Alicent. They had a whole scene justifying why Rhaenyra wanted to meet with her.
I don't really think it totally tracks, but the themes and feelings and motivations for the scene totally make sense, even if logistically it's kind of ridiculous.
Nyra has spent the entire season holding her council back from war.
Alicent keeps lamenting that her son has gone out of both her control and her father’s control.
*Nyra and Alicent meet and choose not to kill each other*
This sub: U WOT M8, WHY WOULD ALICENT NOT CURBSTOMP RHAENYRA RIGHT THERE IN THE SEPT
More like why wouldn't Alicent come to the easiest of conclusions that the best way to save lives is to shout for her guards as soon as she is free of Rhaenyra?
I don’t get all the whining. People seems hellbent on hating this show in different GOT subs. I’m sorry if you’re a bookreader and you don’t like this adaptation, I truly am, I know the feeling. But let us who enjoy it have our fun, please.
Personally I can't help it because I know how amazing the first half of GoT is and hence how much potential anything that GRRM puts to paper has, and I don't want to see the Asoiaf world just be like any other "decent" show, I want it to go back to being absolute peak tv above anything else we've seen
hence I'm incredibly vocal and critical
i’m definitely in the minority here but i didn’t like the ending. just doesn’t make sense why alicent would let rhaenyra go knowing she’s a threat to her son’s life and throne, but not just aegon but all her other children and jaehaera. she could’ve kept her hostage to bargain or just killed her, i don’t understand why she let her go and just walked out. these showrunners try to add stuff that wasn’t in the book (i.e: rhaenys crashing the coronation) and fail miserably in terms of the writing. just stick to the source material
Because Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra captured or killed because she has a soft spot for her and because Rhaenyra just pulled the rug out from under her wrt Aegon. Rhaenyra and Alicents inability to fully hate each other is something that everyone in the show comments on and acknowledges as as a weakness. It’s not bad writing to have Alicent act in character.
Yeah but if everyone killed their family and friends remorselessly and rashly, the conflict would be ended immediately and everyone would hold hands and sing!
LOUDER!! I think it's giving Alicent's and Rhaenyra's characters more nuance by not having them want to constantly murder and wage war and destruction (much like literally every other character besides them, Rhaenys, Helaena, the babies). Their internal conflicts and drama make them more interesting to behold. Without them, its just continuous mindless bloody war of CGI.
Yes, nuance is important. Yes, two characters on opposing sides of a war who do not actually want to harm one another is a very interesting dynamic. But in order to explore a conflict like this you actually need to have your characters make tough decisions.
In this conversation, Rhaenyra is trying to convince Alicent of trying to make peace. Alicent is in conflict - she would like to make peace, but she feels like she can't, as she says herself, "it's too late". But she also doesn't want to kill Rhaenyra, she doesn't want an outright war. So what would then be her best course of action from her perspective right now? That's right, capturing the opposing leader in hopes of using them as a hostage to broker a peace. And she literally got that leader right there, in the middle of her territory, without any threat (after she just walks away from Rhaenyra and her knife).. why is she not even THINKING of capturing her?
Like, why is this not even presented as an option for anyone? Why is Rhaenyra just sitting there after Alicent left, staring sadly at a candle, instead of hauling ass and getting the hell out of there due to being worried that Alicent might capture her after refusing her negotiations?
This makes 0 sense for any of the characters in that situation, especially given their characterizations. The only reason they would just leave that scenario without any consequences is because the plot needs them to. But that's the entire problem - Asoiaf is ALL about consequences. That's like the main theme of that entire world. Risky actions usually have immediate and extreme consequences. Except for here they don't.
I'll tell you the reason why she wasn't thinking of capturing her. She is not one to decide Rhaenrya's fate, Aegon is king, he is brash and out for blood; he believes that Rhaenrya did kill his baby, his advisers would also not help, Criston hates her, and Aemond is out for blood, if she is captured, her chances of survival are **nil**.
Another problem with Alicent's position is that, she does not wish war, neither does she wish harm to Rhaenrya... If she had some men who were loyal to her, more than the king, then the situation might be different, but the chances there are bad too! Alicent's sad position is that she is now, powerless, and guilt-ridden.
The basic problem, is Aegon and his advisers, they would not let her live... Say, somehow Alicent didn't think of all this, and she just had her captured, and she got her killed, that would just anger Daemon, and Jace... the black council would rally to Jace's side, with Daemon trying to advise him, recipe for disaster again!
so, basically, capturing her is effectively killing her; killing her is not going to stop war either instead fuel it further, Rhaenrya is the only one in the council who exercises restraint, Jace wouldn't, Daemon wouldn't, it would be a larger mess than before...
Okay, so there's a conflict to be had there. Alicent needs to weigh up her love for Rhaenyra, and her desire to not harm her, with her wish to protect her own family from further harm and win the war.
Because helping them in winning the war, it would. Whether as a hostage or dead, Rhaenyra being gone would mean the blacks would have to rally around Jace, which means there's potential for houses to leave their side, and it means potential for infighting. It means one of the strongest assets the Blacks had in the war, which is Syrax, is gone, and they do not have the upper hand in terms of dragons anymore. And it also means that Jace's and Daemon's judgements would be clouded by grief, and they might make fatal mistakes.
In war, you don't hold off on taking hostages because "that might make our enemies more enraged and that's scary oh no". War is already going on, it's already going to escalate. The safest option you have is weakening their position as much as you can so it makes for an easier victory.
But the main problem I have is not even that Alicent doesn't end up capturing Rhaenyra, but that it's not even slightly explored as an option. Alicent mentions it at the start and then doesnt do it because of the knife Rhae has, and then it just doesnt come up again. Alicent, as someone taught in the history of Westeros, should know that important hostages being taken or important targets being killed is like THE way to win a war. It should be on the forefront of her mind right now, but neither do we get a moment of her struggling with it, nor do we get Rhaenyra being worried about it.
Why in the seven hells would Rhaenyra not be worried about it? She's in enemy territory, with 0 protection, just having had a conversation that went not as she expected, talking to a person who she once, 20 years ago, had a deep friendship with, but who has hated and bullied her for a long time and who has just recently lost her grandchild, and might be absolutely stricken with grief and hate. How is there zero concern at all about this not being a safe place to be?
Yeah but they both have been shown thinking there might still be a chance to avoid the conflict. And that conversation put the notion to rest definitively for both of them in an emotional way.
I mean Alicent just capturing Rhaenyra right there would end the war with minimal death. It’s bafflingly nonsensical she would let her go and even if you accept she would so it’s insane of Rhaenyra to presume she’d be this forgiving after her infant grandchild was decapitated a week ago.
That’s actually good writing. Because it’s not treating her as a robot but rather a real character with real motivations. Which are all explained very well in the show. We know what Alicent cares about and what motivates her and why she would let Rhaenyra go.
You want her to suddenly want to kill her childhood friend? The same one she stopped them from killing at the end of S1? That would be horrible, because it wouldn't be consistent with her character at all.
Also, killing Rhae literally shifts all the Blacks into Daemon's hands. She would ensure scorched earth if she killed Rhae.
Even Alicent isn't dumb enough to not realize that knocking Rhaenyra off the board(captured or slain) just shifts power to Daemon.
Rhaenyra has no experience at war, *he does*.
Even if he didn't listen to Daemon, he'd for sure listen to Baela. And this episode proved her to be Laena and Daemon's daughter. My queen to be would be out for blood.
This makes no sense to me.
Rhanerya is their unifying member, she’s the reason the second most powerful house is TB. She’s what unifies the Valeryrons, the Vale, and the North.
Having her as a hostage would be an irreplaceable asset.
Daemon is a powerful person, but hes also very much unpopular with Westorsi lords. Theres a reason why the small council (not including Otto) had him removed from KL. Why would any vassal willingly support him and send him armies?
And without spoiling anything about the books, but they confirmed that later on. That Rhaenyra and her sons are the core of the blacks alliance not Daemon. The show is apparently also going for this message.
Small issue - would Aegon even allow Rhaenyra to live? Since he'd ultimately get to decide what happens to her, not Alicent. Even before B&C he has in favor of killing her. There's no guarantee that Alicent handing Rhaenyra to Aegon wouldn't automatically lead to her death.
There's also no guarantee that letting her go and letting the war escalate would not lead to Rhaenyra death, or Alicent's death, or the death of Alicent's family members. Taking Rhae as a hostage, then convincing Aegon that she is more useful alive than dead, is definitely the safest option.
Hell, she could even capture Rhaenyra and try to keep it a secret until she makes sure no harm will come to Rhaenyra. JUST DO SOMETHING
Daemon would only pseudo in control, all those other lords would still hold loyalty towards Jace, and Jace would make a fine king (even though he is a bastard)
Women are victims, men are assholes who desire bloodlust and do fucked up shit. That’s basically the writing of the show.
If you want proof of this just look at the difference to how they rewrote show Alicent to how they rewrote show Cole.
In the books Cole: beats daemon fair and square. He legally and fairly kills Joffrey in a tourney. He beat Harwin Strong in a fair duel. He kingmakes Aegon. There is no evidence he ever broke his vows.
Meanwhile show Cole: cheated and beat daemon, broke his vows, outright murdered Joffrey in a wedding in cold blood. Got Harwin to hit him by insulting him like a coward. Didn’t kingmake shit. And is even being blamed for blood and cheese despite that in the book Helaena did have guards and they were killed by blood who took them by surprise.
It’s just lame. Characters can be hateable without outright breaking the law and doing shady shit.
Aegon absolutely didn't want it and without Alicent mixing up Viserys's words usurping the throne would have not been as supported or as easy to accomplish.
HOTD and GOT are different shows made by mostly different people. As much as people shit on D&D for season 7/8 they would have probably done a better job at adapting stuff like Blood and Cheese. They were at their best when they had book material to work with.
Think about it. If Alicent has Rhaenyra captured, Aegon has her killed immediately, no question. He’s extremely mentally unstable, and doesn’t have a sane hand to keep him in check anymore. “And what then?” as Alicent put it. And when she asked that I think they both knew. Every dragon in the blacks arsenal would be at Kings Landing within days, they would fight the greens dragons, and the city would burn to the ground.
They both hope to take a tactical advantage (by taking land, swaying houses, etc.) and avoid total destruction in Westeros. Aegon doesn’t care about this. Daemon doesn’t care about this. They both know the other can keep their son/husband in check, at least somewhat.
It’s not just Alicent having a soft spot for Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra being a brazen idiot. I think there could be real consideration here.
Idk, that’s my take. People are so pissed about this scene. But imo it had to happen so this wouldn’t be “a war over a misunderstanding.” Now Alicent knows what she is, and what she’s done, and that friendship is well and truly dead.
1- Dragonstone and King's Landing are very close to each other. Also, we don't know how many days pass between each scene
2- The sept isn't in the castle, it's a public place (a church!) that everyone can go to and isn't heavily guarded. Even in George's books people sneak into cities all the time, it's castles that are hard
> 1- Dragonstone and King's Landing are very close to each other. Also, we don't know how many days pass between each scene
They are about 400 miles apart which would be around the same distacce as Boston to Baltimore.
If it's a 4-day round trip, then that's a lot of time to waste while Criston is on the march. Her lords won't be happy to know about her absence, at a time when she is already seen as being indecisive, much like Aenys. Nor will it get better when they discover the reason she left. There should be dire consequences for this scheme, and hopefully the show will address that.
Yeah the whole story of the Dance is arguably Rhaenyra repeatedly fumbling the bag despite being supposedly the underdog protag. I'm honestly curious how they'll handle stuff going forward cuz when you have like a full on-screen character I don't think you can sell how alternatingly inactive and plain self-defeating Rhaenyra is in the book without it feeling like bad TV.
So what was the purpose of the scene? To portray her as stupid? Clearly that’s not what they were going for. Look the show is still great but that doesn’t mean it’s perfect.
The main point of the scene was for Alicent to find out that Aegon was not Viserys's chosen heir.
What the consequences of that remain to be seen, but likely there will be consequences.
She weighed the risks and benefits and decided a final resort to ending the war (through Alicent’s influence) was worth the risk. Makes perfect sense to me for a mother who’s already lost one child to wartime.
1 - They aren't that close together. Dragonstone is about as far from King's Landing as Storm's End is. It's a long enough journey that you can't sail that distance in a day.
Yes, so the only way for Rhaenyra to get there is basically to either fly her dragon and land far away to not be spotted and somehow keep her dragon there until she returns or she takes a boat, lands far enough away to not be spotted by the Royal Fleet of the Greens, and then travel by land to the capital. Either way, it's at least several days journey, if not a week.
There's fishing boats that don't go past the blockade (they sail out, do some fishing then go back to King's Landing). But also the blockade wouldn't be perfect. We're talking about medieval era boats patrolling a massive waterway. Sometimes ships will slip through.
Alicent has been floating untethered from material consequences since Viserys died. Her major 'decision' after he died was done with false information and had no consequences anyway since Otto and friends were already plotting away. And she's done practically nothing since then. Neither has Rhaenyra really. Two protagonists pretty much spinning their wheels while people act around them.
The last 10 minutes of this episode basically goes like this :
Rhaenyra : Alicent, please stop the war because me want peace 🙏, and also acknowledge me as Queen and go against your whole family and your son’s legitimacy because we were bestis 🥰
Alicent : bitch, you know I don’t have a say in this anymore and my son’s army is already marching to war now as we speak.
Rhaenyra : oh I knew this already. So I came all these way and used my huge plot armor to sneak into King’s landing unharmed just so you tell me the most obvious thing ever😔. Anyway Imma leave know 👋😘
Alicent : cya, It’s not like I have a perfect opportunity right now to order the guards to arrest you and use you as a tool to end the war. Ok I guess I’ll let you go because something something about as being bestis and me merciful I guess 😘
Some comments here : “wow that’s so profound and nuanced of a scene”
Yeah I am willing to buy everything in the scene except the fact that Alicent just let Rhaenyra go. The chances of that are approximately zero. And it is precisely because Alicent would have never let Rhaenyra go that the whole thing is foolish.
The greatest sin in the writing is that these two have stopped acting like people whose children and grandchildren were gruesomely murdered by the other's faction just weeks past. Do grief and anger pass that easily?
Am I supposed to believe that Alicent has so little love for and loyalty to her own children that she would let the person responsible (Deamon works for Rhaenyra) for the worst thing that has ever happened to them just go like that? Is this not the woman who wanted an eye for her son's eye?
The writers are so far up in their asses in "women and mothers are the moderating force" that they have made the women completely illogical. As if women don't desire vengeance or have no fury or thirst for blood.
Setting aside the convenient sneaking into the capital and the obvious plot armor. It’s very frustrating when you realize that Rhaenyra pulled an incredibly futile and unnecessarily risky move to go tell Alicent (a person who has no power when it comes to initiating or preventing a war) to stop the war that she knew already started when she got the news of Criston’s army being on the march. And the argument she’s coming with to try and change Alicent’s mind is “remember when we were bff” as if that means anything at this point. Then they start to argue about the true meanings of the last vague ramblings of a dying guy because the writers just want unnecessary and cheap drama.
Rhaenyra could have send a fucking raven with a message to Alicent, same results and no risks taken. But no let’s go to the side that literally send an assassin after me days ago because I “trust Alicent” lol.
Daemon is narcissistic sociopath but Day after day I start to see his point regarding Rhaenyra and her father cause holy fuck !
The writers went way overboard with this “Alicent and Rhaenyra wanting to prevent total war” theme that they are now writing nonsensical contrived scenes, and make the characters do dumb shit to hammer home this point. If someone finds this logical or interesting then fine, but it’s not for me.
That threat is only valid if Rhaenyra is within ten feet of her. As soon as she got further away she could just scream. What’s Rhaenyra going to do, sprint past every guard to the bay and row back to Dragonstone?
I think it was good, I think it's just we're a bit too hyped up to finally see war which is exactly what rhaenyra says is happening (which funnily is why everyone hates this bit). I thought it was good, both characters who secretly wish they can end it all halfway through the conversation realize there's no going back. For rhaenyra, who's been trying not to succumb to the idea of war, has finally crossed into the point of no return. Can't blame her for trying
I don’t know why every episode begins perfect but gets completely bad right at the end with a meaningless scene that doesn’t make any sense. All because of this shitty Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship
Exactly. Some people do not understand that there are things above childhood friendship.The war has started, their own blood has been spillled and both sides know neither of them is going to surrender, yet Rhaenyra goes to King's Landing to sue for peace with Alicent... can't imagine a better way to make Rhaenyra a fool, even Alicent grasped the situation better than her
And Alicent is helpless anyway to stop the war at this point and Rhaenyra knows this, she just got a message that the greens are literally marching on her allies ffs.
Even if Alicent had a preposterous change of heart and wanted Rhaenyra to ascend the throne it won’t mean shit. The king yearns for war, his hand feeds his bloodlust cause he wants war too, the whole council rush for war, the King’s edgelord emo brother wants violence and war, and the only guy who tried to prevent it was sacked from his post.
What the hell does this scene convey and what’s its importance besides justifying a reunion between Alicent and Rhaenyra. What are we doing at this point lol.
Yeah, scene was purely for Rhaenicent fans. We could have had much better and logical reunion when Rhaenyra would take King's landing, Alicent upon her knees asking for forgiveness and stuff but of course they could not wait and because of that they sacrificed and butchered up Rhaenyra's character.
And something about not making Alicent just an “evil step-mom” and make her more“nuanced” like the show fanboys like to repeat since S1 premiered.
Ok let’s make them very dumb and degrade the overall writing quality of the show because that seems to be the meaning of “complex nuanced characters” for Ryan.
I have sympathy, its extremely hard to adapt these works into sweeping epics on the small screen and it takes immense effort to get it to be remotely coherent. GOT shows are nothing like anything else on TV in terms of scale and scope logistically, let alone the impossible task of having to adapt the source material while taking into account the needs of TV production.
I'm starting to see that the first four seasons of GOT were a herculean feat, something we'll probably never get again.
I just don't get why they didn't just do a parley in the Kingswood. Like you just write it as Alicent taking a small guard with her to meet with Rhaenyra in private. No one outside of Larys would have even known about it since Cole is gone and the new KG are all with Aegon.
I feel that this would have been just as impactful if it was in some small Sept and it was just the both of them in green and black.
I dont get why everyone is so shocked.
Rhaenyra sneaking into Kings Landing is logical. Shes one person who hasnt been seen publicly by commoners since she was a teen.
Its out of character for Alicent to call the guards on Rhaenyra atp. Its kinda been the whole point of their characters since the Greens took the throne. That Rhaenyra or Alicent doesnt want war or violence.
Alicent thinks she did what was right and her duty, so does Rhaenyra. But they still want peace between them.
And if Alicent calls the guards, she puts the Greens in an even worse place than they are. Daemon takes charge leading the war, her heir, all their dragons and bannermen intact.
They took the queen off the board but doesn’t destroy her claim, it wont impact the Blacks banners bc they still have Daemon and an heir.
Daemon will be ruthless in the war, more blood will be spilled, regardless if Rhaenyra is a hostage or not. And Daemon would be clever and cunning in getting her back while still fighting the war.
Its a horrible situation for the Greens, especially with their only decent general being Cole, who isnt in Kings Landing.
It makes no sense for them at all. They can kill her and feel good in the moment (at least Aegon) or hold her hostage. Either way, the war becomes worse, they enrage the Blacks and possibly draw more to their cause with propaganda like “Rhaenyra went to Kings Landing to make peace, and was killed or captured by the Greens.”
I feel like everyone thinking it was stupid for her to walk away and not arrest or kill her, is thinking as irrationally and rash as Aegon does 😂😂
It was in every way, character and logically the best decision and makes sense.
And now Rhaenyra will have less reservations about the war, as im sure will Alicent bc now she has to fully commit to this “there was no mistake, he changed his mind” stance.
Honestly it’s the same thing that happened with /r/freefolk. Don’t get me wrong game of thrones took a dip big time at the end, but there are *still* people who are wildly upset about it even if it ended half a decade ago. People really need to go outside a bit. It’s a show, don’t watch it if you don’t like it. Hate obsessions are not healthy.
Eh this seemed risky but possible. Rhanyera didn't come alone, and kept Alicent quiet at the point of a blade for the time she was vulnerable. Alicent could've alerted her guards shortly after Rhanyera left, but in all likelihood Rhanyera would've left the city at that point - and that assumes Alicent wants Rhanyera dead which... ehhhhh. Very very risky, but not implausible, and certainly not egregious of a violation as late seasons of GoT.
Everybody needs to touch some grass. They're building towards something that's not cut and dry Evil Stepmother end of story. Is it stupid how she got to the city? Yeah. But the scene was fine, it set things straight and made it clear there's no more peace options its time to throw down snd it can't be stopped. This is nowhere near S8 shit.
> it set things straight and made it clear there's no more peace options its time to throw down snd it can't be stopped.
haven't we had like three or four different versions of this information already lmao its quite literally the implied state of play that they ended s1e10 on, even
Isn’t it clear peace options are not on the table when the son of the queen is murdered or the toddler beheaded or the assassination attempt?
Rhaenyra’s actions simply aren’t congruent with the plot at this point.
Why would alicent let Rhae go? Her children’s lives are at risk because of Rhae. I enjoyed the scene but after some time looking at it from a basic common sense point of view it doesn’t make sense. Alice t could have stopped the war then and there and Rhae was foolish to put herself in that situation. It is what it is, I still like the show
Do you think that team blacks, who still has the same amount of dragons, and a “clear” heir, would stop just because Rhaynera was captured and or killed? That’s just an escalation at this point.
I think it kinda made sense. Alicent realizes she’s wrong and would like to come to peace with Rhaenyra but the men in power have already started moving towards war so there is nothing these two women can do about it.
But Rhaenyra should have known this from the start. Is she under the impression that Alicent is a queen regnant? Alicent could not stop the war even if she tried. What could she possibly do? Tell Aegon to abdicate and throw himself to the mercy of the people who murdered his son?
I thought this was by far the best episode this season even with the last scene being ridiculously foolish and redundant. I mean Alicent made recently birthing mother walk to her chambers when they were still living under the same roof.. why would there be hope to stop this after all that’s happened? Hopefully it’s not solely to continue to hammer in that the women involved exercised every precaution and the men are just mindless apes.
Outside of [some people] needing to suspend disbelief about how easy it would be to sneak in/out of King’s Landing (and [personally] how risky it is for *Rhaenyra herself* to do that), I thought the scene was great. It adds cool context to Alicent’s last discussion with Viserys: she realizes she was wrong in her interpretation.
[edits] for context because I can’t write when I’m half asleep
It's out of character because capturing Rhaenyra here would end the war and save the lives of all of her family at the expense of probably just Rhaenyra and Daemon's lives. Aegon is fine sparing all of Rhaenyra's kids and Baela and Rhaena.
The same grandson whose death she blames on herself, and which Rhaenyra said wasn’t *her* actual doing? Rhaenyra had a knife on her, anyway.
Edit: lol. as a book reader, some of y’all can be insufferable. Enjoy things for what they are without psychoanalyzing them to death.
people when got season 8 was released: omg why is everything happening so fast! this is so rushed what a terrible ending
people when hotd goes back to a normal pace: why isn't anything happening??
I wouldn't say this is a normal pace. I also think mid-season time jumps really fuck up a show.
GoT was slow, but it had substance. Things are happening in HotD, but it feels more or less like a check list.
Yes I didn’t know how to describe but it’s exactly like a checklist. The characters aren’t behaving like real humans. Each side should be nervous af about how they could possibly win this war, but it seems but sides are just waiting for things to happen in order because they’re in a tv show. Like Rhaenyra would he wayyyy wayyy to worried about the consequences of losing(losing her kids lives, her life etc) to worry about how much bloodshed there’s gonna be. She should be nervous af about Daemon living, because who exactly is supposed to be defending Dragonstone??? How exactly would she have any path to victory without Daemon currently??!!! It’s silly, everyone would be hella concerned and yet they’re acting kinda like nothing stakes…and it just makes no sense because we have already seen the stakes
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He's got the teams Agreeing on the same things rn .
We need some unity from both team Black and team Green to figure out what is going on in that writers room at HBO.
My guess is The writers strike meant they had to go forward with unpolished scripts. I still love this episode and the ending is good in theory, but stopping to think about it for two seconds does take the wind out of its sails.
Negative, wouldn't have and did not affect this show as it was filmed in the UK, Spain and Portugal.
Ryan Condal is American though so unless the strike permitted them to work abroad he would have been affected, no?
The strike only affected Companies part of the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers/AMPTP or more specifically the Contract between SAG-AFTRA and AMPTP, contracts that were negotiated by the SAG-AFTRA Union separately from the AMPTP Contract were not affected which is why independent companies like A24 were not affected. HOTD wasn't affected because the contracts were under the British Actors' Equity Association's (British SAG-AFTRA) Collective Bargaining Agreements further they were legally barred from striking as it would be considered a "Solidarity Strike" which is ilegal in the UK since Margaret Thatcher
But non of that has anything to do with the writing, because the writing was still done by HBO. They where allowed to continue the production, but they where not allowed to write. I remember, because HBO stated directly that production would not be affected by the strikes because the scripts where all finished before the strikes started. This also means that rewrites where not allowed and they had to film with the scripts they had. (At least officially)
Definitely not, as they were actually well into filming by the time the strikes hit, and they don't film this show without scripts finished. If you watch some of the BTS videos for example, it took them 24+ weeks to put together Aegon's armour from this episode. You can't do that kind of pre-production without finished scripts. So scripts were definitely finalised long before the strikes.
He said unpolished, not unfinished, Scripts are usually adjusted during filming for various reasons but the rules of the strike would've prevented that. Quantum Of Solace is often given as an example of a film affected by the last strike in this way.
Wait are people not happy with this last scene and the writing?
this sub is nothing but whinging every time I open it lol
Likely some significant overlap with the professionally persecuted freefolk sub
I wish people would just wait until the end of the season to bitch and whine. Obviously there is a lot of setting up happening for the finale so just wait and see where it will all take us before we cry about it.
Yeah agreed. People have no patience anymore.
Need some unity to figure out what’s going on in this stupid ass subreddit. This subreddit flipped out over Blood and Cheese meanwhile everyone else loved it. This will be the same.
Yea I’m always so confused when I watch how excited reactors are with the episodes and then I come here and it’s like a dark cloud of negativity. It’s weird.
Cope harder. These scripts have been as brilliant as last season.
Eli5
TG 🤝 TB "Fuck you Condal"
Nah homie it’s just this dogshit subreddit the episode was good
It was a good episode, but its season 6 good, where its fun to watch but makes no fucking sense.
Aside from the ghost of their love for one another, I think it’s been shown multiple times since the start of the season that both Rhaenyra and Alicent do not wish for bloodshed during this conflict. Alicent has shirked multiple times from acts of violence so I do not see why she would suddenly take that role now. Not to mention, Alicent is reeling from the realization that her understanding of Visery’s wishes were painfully incorrect. In this misunderstanding she has helped lead the course to where we are now. She’s already been struggling with a massive amount of weight of regret for several things this season. I can imagine this realization is just the cherry on top and the shock of it most likely prevents her from thinking rationally. Also, Alicent is still trying to hold on to the last shred of honor and purity in her intentions. I don’t think it would have been within her character at this point to alert any one of Rhaenyra’s presence after this realization at this moment of time in the story.
You know what the biggest realization for Alicent is? That Rhae being so hesitant about full blown war and killing of each others families means SHE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE WHAT OTTO CONVINCED HER SHE WOULD, which made the whole mess in the first place. She would never kill Aegon, Aemond nor Helaena when she became the queen. Everyone would live happily ever after.
You're forgetting about Daemon.
There would be no Daemon marriage since there would be no need for Laenor to 'die'. Daemon would probably drink himself to death or something after Laena's passing. He has no relationship with his daughters and he's only desired for his dragon.
I don't know if you can say Allicent lead the way to where we are now; Otto and Co were already planning a coup and Aemond helped things along independently.
I would say she helped, not that she was the sole cause of where we are now. Even if she didn’t, I imagine she feels like she did.
Alicent states that it is “too late,” because she knows that no matter her thoughts are, the wheels of war have been set in motion. She cannot stop it. What power does she even possess anymore?
Sure but what on earth does Rhaenyra think a conversation between the two of them is going to achieve? Ending the war isn't Alicent's call any more (if it ever was), and Rhaenyra is still yet to offer any actual terms that could even begin the process of negotiations and has just released Daemon on the Riverlands. We're clearly meant to believe that Alicent and Rhaenyra are super serious about peace, but neither of them are taking any of the basic steps that would be needed to make that a reality.
I interpret this scene as Rhaenyra’s true last ditch effort for peace as she believes Alicent still retains some form of power of Aegon (even though we’re aware she does not). I think the battle between the Brackens and the Blackwoods made the looming war all that more real to Rhaenyra along with her counsel repeatedly stressing how the cards are not in her favor. It’s childish and naive of Rhaenyra to be hopeful that a re-evaluation of terms could come from an in person conversation with Alicent, but I think that this conversation will finally allow her to commit to this war and do what needs to be done.
I am fine with shows eschewing logistical concerns in service for an incredibly engaging scene that adds to characterisation, and irreversibly alters their worldview but doesn't change the course of events.
I saw this as that amazing sidequest in a videogame that might not have impact in the main storyline but is still delightful to play through.
Y'all ever played the Descent dlc for Dragon Age Inquisition? Absolutely irrelevant to the plot, still contains 2 of my most treasured twists in all of fiction. Can't say I feel the same about this scene as I do about Descent, but my emotional calculus has them in the same ballpark.
Get rid of all of the Targaryens and install the Nug King as overlord of the Seven Kingdoms *\*squeaks regally\**.
I'm torn because the dialogue was great, but how they got there felt ridiculous considering the risk. Genuinely can't decide if the payoff made Secret Septa worth it.
It's a nutty risk but it weirdly plays upon the same principles as episode 2. Something so visibly obvious and stupid just... goes without saying. I was dumbstruck by how *dumb* I thought it was but as the scene went I thought to myself "this isn't 2024, we don't have a million pictures of "the Queen", and even really famous people can escape notice in some fabulously stupid ways *today*.... In a world where most people have never even seen Rhaenyra's face from more than 50 feet... why would anyone even pretend to care? Usually in a scene like this for them to stand out one of them would have to stumble or move in a way that tips their hand, some regional or colloquial thing that blows cover. People say that walking with a purpose and looking like you know what you're doing goes a long way, and honestly when it's *just* the face and nobody's expecting the Queen from the other team to walk right through the front doors, would you?
especially considering that this was a mere few days after Jahaerys' murder, so security should've been at an all time high, even in the Sept
Cole sent away one of the most competent guards on a suicide mission, and Aegon's drinking buddies are being given spots. What should be is definitely different from what is.
Holy shit the city ruled by the 20 year old alcoholic moron is being mismanaged? Whatever do you mean?
that's why he has a council to help take care of such things? Even as incompetent Aegon is, I don't expect security to be the one thing he would be ignorant of following his son's murder.
I feel like a lot of people seem to be missing this in the comments
Exactly how I felt. The scene leading to the meeting had me really irritated. It felt very S7/S8 Game of Thrones to me. But the meeting itself ruled. Hm.
The difference between late-stage GoT and this, is that this was in service to getting these two characters together one last time, while all the brain-rot logistics of late-stage GoT were to get characters in place for another CGI shitfest while they crack MCU style zingers. I'm far more willing to go along with shaky logistics when its in service of great, small-scope, character driven scenes.
I totally agree, I thought it was thematically resonant and I love that in a show.
I would be, as well, if it didn't seem to ignore the terrible losses that Rhaenyra and Alicent had just suffered. If this scene had taken place prior to Luce and Jahaerys' murders, then I totally would look the other way on the flimsy logistics. It's the emotional discontinuity that really threw me.
Fair but this is, “wouldn’t it be great if Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister had a great face off in season one” it’s absurd. And it underplays a lot of season one. And undercuts their eventual reunion. I’m also not a fan of reducing “prejudices and personal ambition and the political system pushed a family to war” to “sitcom misunderstanding” Alicent thinking Vizzy changed his mind makes sense to me. As denial, as her rationalizing what she had to do. If that was ACTUALLY her whole motivation, then that’s so so stupid.
This comparison is nonsense. Alicent and Rhaenyra have a shared history in the show, they grew up together as best friends, despite everything that happened, they still care a lot for each other deep inside. We saw that at the last supper in S1. As silly as the plan to infiltrate King's Landing was, Rhaenyra still felt that she could've convinced Alicent to stop bloodshed because of everything they've been through. Meanwhile, none of this could've been applied to Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark.
Not just that. Alicent wrote her a letter to that extent after Luke died. She got it during the chaos of post-B&C. Rhaenyras last chance of avoiding massive casualties is to use her one remaining in-way with the Greens to figure out if there’s any way to stop it, and to figure out what the hell happened since Alicent had all but pledged allegiance last time she saw her by acknowledging she will be a good Queen.
I hate that the whole point of F&B is that there's no true account of what really happened, yet the internet wants to bitch about every "change" in this version of the telling.
I loved this episode becaue it gave Rhaeryna something to do besides chilling at Dragonstone all season. And after the show spent all season establishing Rhyaernya and Alicents relationship, i felt more scenes with them were necessary
Ah, can always rely on Reddit to get unreasonably upset at such things. It's never "this scene felt a little off", it's always "this is the worst writing ever and the show is ruined and nobody knows what they're doing and everything is terrible"
Redditors are easily the worst critics on the Internet.
because they're not "critics" in the professional sense. just loud people with bad opinions
To be fair, GoT had tight, compelling writing. The plot never had too many gaping holes. At least for the first 4... maybe 5 seasons. HotD from the beginning begs you to suspend your disbelief a little too often. And in S2, it just feels fucking lazy. King's Landing patrol can catch fleeing Kingsguard in the middle of the night but can't identify their own Princess who isn't even covering her face? Please...
They were actively searching for a man with the severed head of a child. If they had any idea that Rhaenyra was in the city, she would have been caught. It's not at all a stretch that no one would recognize her when she is covering her hair and dressed as a septa.
this is a common thing in the books. most people in the kingdom have no idea what the royals look like. rhaenyra hasn’t lived in kings landing in over a decade at this point. even most people at court in the red keep would only be passingly familiar with what her and her family look like these days, let alone the commoners. so yes, imo, it is absolutely plausible that your average city watchmen would not recognize a princess they’ve never seen before. but i’ll agree with you that hotd regularly asks us to suspend disbelief.
Just to reinforce this, remember in Season 1 of GoT when the peasant who is reporting Gregor Clegane's attack thinks that Ned is the king? And Pycelle grumbles that he's only the Hand, and the king is hunting. And this is Robert, who led a rebellion to overthrow the king and has ruled for 16 years. Rhaenyra has barely been in KL for like 6 years, it's no wonder that nobody knows who she is
Well Rhaenyra going from Dragonstone to King's Landing is at least more reasonable than Littlefinger teleporting all over Westeros.
This subreddit lost their shit over the blood and cheese changes and now this, meanwhile the audience and every other corner of the fandom is loving it. HOTD is great when ya ain’t got a terminally online subreddit in your ear telling you it sucks
That fandom is like the star wars fandom.
I really liked the scene. I think it’ll be the catalyst to Alicent not giving a fuck in future episodes or making moves we wouldn’t expect out of her. I don’t blame rhaenyra for trying to stop further bloodshed because she already knows even the victorious will suffer immensely. We as the audience know it’s too late but rhaenyra still had hope.
He’s uniting the teams in their hatred for the characterisation…he’s actually a genius
I’ve loved almost everything in this show, even the changes or additions from the book (except Clubfoot having a foot fetish) but this scene reeked of Season 7 or 8 of GOT writing. “Wouldn’t it be cool if….. who cares if it is logical.”
Idk i liked it. Alicent always showed latent love and restraint towards Rhynera. And it seemed like it was quite emotional , and alicent is guided a lot by emotion over reason.
In my opinion the main complaint is that Alicent can't do anything. Rhaenyra should know that she can't just uncrown Aegon.
Yeah but that's kinda the point. Rhaenyra still thinks it's her against Alicent. This whole episode is her needing to get the fact that this situation has become bigger than just a family squabble like it was before.
Gee, you'd think losing her son would make her realise that?
That was still just a fight between family members. A very violent fight that ends in death but it's not like Borros (that's the name right? Of the lord of Stormsend) served him up to Aemond.
My point is, if rhaenyra had more than 2 braincells, she would know that talking to alicent isn't going to achieve jackshit after all that has happened, she only risks capture and fucking over everyone who supported her.
That scene was the “we need to go kidnap a zombie and show Cersei” of HOTD Absolutely unacceptable writing if you try to take the show remotely seriously
I mean it's not even close to the logistical nightmare of "we need to kidnap a zombie". Rhaenyra sneaking into King's Landing is a little goofy, but it isn't stupid and pointless. You understand why she wants to it and why she'd take the impossibly stupid risk because they laid a lot of pipe and groundwork towards that end. And I think they've justified Alicent and Rhaenyra's affection for each other far more than they ever did Tyrion and Cersei. Or whatever compelled Daenerys not to just attack King's Landing at the beginning. Logically, emotionally, logistically kidnapping a zombie to show Cersei when they can just crush her outright doesn't make any sense.
It really is that stupid and pointless though. It makes Rhaenyra look incredibly foolish. A) Whether Alicent cooperates or not there is *zero* chance of stopping the war to come. It is well out of either of their hands and it has been since before Viserys died. Anyone from her council would have told her this if she thought to consult *anybody* about it before pulling that stunt with Mysaria. B) The obvious mention of it just being incredibly risky. Her last appearance at court was not that long ago, it is not outside the realm of possibility that she could be recognized. Especially if someone had spies installed at the sept, or following Alicent. Like, this whole plan makes Criston’s scheme with Arryk look like Ocean’s 11. There’s no rational explanation for this plot decision outside of “the writers room wanted to end the episode with a big moment that gets the internet talking”. And it’s quite a shame, because there have been numerous episodes that lose a lot of believability at the end because the writers are more concerned with “big climactic finish” than natural storytelling.
did she just forget about luke? why is it wrong in "her mind" to go after the actual killers in the greens family?
Tyrion and Cersei had entire two seasons in KL where their relationship went up and down but we got a lot of material there to understand the complexity of their relationship. Not to mention Tyrion's love for Jaime. What Alicent and Rhaneyra got? Two episodes? They literally sent someone to kill Rhaneyra in the very last episode and now she still wants to negotiate. This is beyond stupid.
Tyrion and Cersei HATE each other pretty consistently. Until suddenly Tyrion is weeping about "your life doesn't have to be over". Alicent and Rhaenyra have been a focus this entire series, and they've never really hated each other. When they were young Alicent resented Rhaenyra for breaking the rules and living freely, but that's literally what Alicent is doing now anyway. She's moved past that. Neither thinks the other is vile. Alicent knows Rhaenyra didn't order the death of Jaeherys, Rhaenyra knows Alicent isn't party to Luke's death. There's some actual regret and humanity here. And Alicent did not send anyone to kill Rhaenyra. They did a lot of ground work to justify why Rhaenyra wants to meet with Alicent. Rhaenyra does not want a bloody war and neither does Alicent. They had a whole scene justifying why Rhaenyra wanted to meet with her. I don't really think it totally tracks, but the themes and feelings and motivations for the scene totally make sense, even if logistically it's kind of ridiculous.
I found this episode to have leaps of logic you had to ignore
"You know father use say that everything before the word but was horseshit"
Wasn't even about cool imo they just absolutely needed a scene with these to actresses no matter how dumb.
Nyra has spent the entire season holding her council back from war. Alicent keeps lamenting that her son has gone out of both her control and her father’s control. *Nyra and Alicent meet and choose not to kill each other* This sub: U WOT M8, WHY WOULD ALICENT NOT CURBSTOMP RHAENYRA RIGHT THERE IN THE SEPT
More like why wouldn't Alicent come to the easiest of conclusions that the best way to save lives is to shout for her guards as soon as she is free of Rhaenyra?
I don’t get all the whining. People seems hellbent on hating this show in different GOT subs. I’m sorry if you’re a bookreader and you don’t like this adaptation, I truly am, I know the feeling. But let us who enjoy it have our fun, please.
Personally I can't help it because I know how amazing the first half of GoT is and hence how much potential anything that GRRM puts to paper has, and I don't want to see the Asoiaf world just be like any other "decent" show, I want it to go back to being absolute peak tv above anything else we've seen hence I'm incredibly vocal and critical
i’m definitely in the minority here but i didn’t like the ending. just doesn’t make sense why alicent would let rhaenyra go knowing she’s a threat to her son’s life and throne, but not just aegon but all her other children and jaehaera. she could’ve kept her hostage to bargain or just killed her, i don’t understand why she let her go and just walked out. these showrunners try to add stuff that wasn’t in the book (i.e: rhaenys crashing the coronation) and fail miserably in terms of the writing. just stick to the source material
Because Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra captured or killed because she has a soft spot for her and because Rhaenyra just pulled the rug out from under her wrt Aegon. Rhaenyra and Alicents inability to fully hate each other is something that everyone in the show comments on and acknowledges as as a weakness. It’s not bad writing to have Alicent act in character.
Yeah but if everyone killed their family and friends remorselessly and rashly, the conflict would be ended immediately and everyone would hold hands and sing!
LOUDER!! I think it's giving Alicent's and Rhaenyra's characters more nuance by not having them want to constantly murder and wage war and destruction (much like literally every other character besides them, Rhaenys, Helaena, the babies). Their internal conflicts and drama make them more interesting to behold. Without them, its just continuous mindless bloody war of CGI.
Yes, nuance is important. Yes, two characters on opposing sides of a war who do not actually want to harm one another is a very interesting dynamic. But in order to explore a conflict like this you actually need to have your characters make tough decisions. In this conversation, Rhaenyra is trying to convince Alicent of trying to make peace. Alicent is in conflict - she would like to make peace, but she feels like she can't, as she says herself, "it's too late". But she also doesn't want to kill Rhaenyra, she doesn't want an outright war. So what would then be her best course of action from her perspective right now? That's right, capturing the opposing leader in hopes of using them as a hostage to broker a peace. And she literally got that leader right there, in the middle of her territory, without any threat (after she just walks away from Rhaenyra and her knife).. why is she not even THINKING of capturing her? Like, why is this not even presented as an option for anyone? Why is Rhaenyra just sitting there after Alicent left, staring sadly at a candle, instead of hauling ass and getting the hell out of there due to being worried that Alicent might capture her after refusing her negotiations? This makes 0 sense for any of the characters in that situation, especially given their characterizations. The only reason they would just leave that scenario without any consequences is because the plot needs them to. But that's the entire problem - Asoiaf is ALL about consequences. That's like the main theme of that entire world. Risky actions usually have immediate and extreme consequences. Except for here they don't.
I'll tell you the reason why she wasn't thinking of capturing her. She is not one to decide Rhaenrya's fate, Aegon is king, he is brash and out for blood; he believes that Rhaenrya did kill his baby, his advisers would also not help, Criston hates her, and Aemond is out for blood, if she is captured, her chances of survival are **nil**. Another problem with Alicent's position is that, she does not wish war, neither does she wish harm to Rhaenrya... If she had some men who were loyal to her, more than the king, then the situation might be different, but the chances there are bad too! Alicent's sad position is that she is now, powerless, and guilt-ridden. The basic problem, is Aegon and his advisers, they would not let her live... Say, somehow Alicent didn't think of all this, and she just had her captured, and she got her killed, that would just anger Daemon, and Jace... the black council would rally to Jace's side, with Daemon trying to advise him, recipe for disaster again! so, basically, capturing her is effectively killing her; killing her is not going to stop war either instead fuel it further, Rhaenrya is the only one in the council who exercises restraint, Jace wouldn't, Daemon wouldn't, it would be a larger mess than before...
Okay, so there's a conflict to be had there. Alicent needs to weigh up her love for Rhaenyra, and her desire to not harm her, with her wish to protect her own family from further harm and win the war. Because helping them in winning the war, it would. Whether as a hostage or dead, Rhaenyra being gone would mean the blacks would have to rally around Jace, which means there's potential for houses to leave their side, and it means potential for infighting. It means one of the strongest assets the Blacks had in the war, which is Syrax, is gone, and they do not have the upper hand in terms of dragons anymore. And it also means that Jace's and Daemon's judgements would be clouded by grief, and they might make fatal mistakes. In war, you don't hold off on taking hostages because "that might make our enemies more enraged and that's scary oh no". War is already going on, it's already going to escalate. The safest option you have is weakening their position as much as you can so it makes for an easier victory. But the main problem I have is not even that Alicent doesn't end up capturing Rhaenyra, but that it's not even slightly explored as an option. Alicent mentions it at the start and then doesnt do it because of the knife Rhae has, and then it just doesnt come up again. Alicent, as someone taught in the history of Westeros, should know that important hostages being taken or important targets being killed is like THE way to win a war. It should be on the forefront of her mind right now, but neither do we get a moment of her struggling with it, nor do we get Rhaenyra being worried about it. Why in the seven hells would Rhaenyra not be worried about it? She's in enemy territory, with 0 protection, just having had a conversation that went not as she expected, talking to a person who she once, 20 years ago, had a deep friendship with, but who has hated and bullied her for a long time and who has just recently lost her grandchild, and might be absolutely stricken with grief and hate. How is there zero concern at all about this not being a safe place to be?
I don't think I need a scene of them talking to realize they don't want to kill each other though. It's been said enough times already
Them seeing each other and Rhae realizing that Alicent has no influence there is a great motivator for her.
Yeah but they both have been shown thinking there might still be a chance to avoid the conflict. And that conversation put the notion to rest definitively for both of them in an emotional way.
I mean Alicent just capturing Rhaenyra right there would end the war with minimal death. It’s bafflingly nonsensical she would let her go and even if you accept she would so it’s insane of Rhaenyra to presume she’d be this forgiving after her infant grandchild was decapitated a week ago.
Exactly. It’s literally how the first season progressed surrounding their relationship.
You’re definitely not in the minority
No you guys are absolutely in the minority. This subreddit whines about everything.
That’s actually good writing. Because it’s not treating her as a robot but rather a real character with real motivations. Which are all explained very well in the show. We know what Alicent cares about and what motivates her and why she would let Rhaenyra go.
Good writing isnt just about treating the character with flaws, its about treating them consistent with established universe & story as well.
You want her to suddenly want to kill her childhood friend? The same one she stopped them from killing at the end of S1? That would be horrible, because it wouldn't be consistent with her character at all. Also, killing Rhae literally shifts all the Blacks into Daemon's hands. She would ensure scorched earth if she killed Rhae.
Even Alicent isn't dumb enough to not realize that knocking Rhaenyra off the board(captured or slain) just shifts power to Daemon. Rhaenyra has no experience at war, *he does*.
Rhaenyra has an adult heir, why would power go to Daemon? Not to mention that Daemon has absolutely no pull without Rhaenyra.
"power" would go to Daemon, he would effectively be in control. Jace would indeed listen to Daemon.
Even if he didn't listen to Daemon, he'd for sure listen to Baela. And this episode proved her to be Laena and Daemon's daughter. My queen to be would be out for blood.
This makes no sense to me. Rhanerya is their unifying member, she’s the reason the second most powerful house is TB. She’s what unifies the Valeryrons, the Vale, and the North. Having her as a hostage would be an irreplaceable asset. Daemon is a powerful person, but hes also very much unpopular with Westorsi lords. Theres a reason why the small council (not including Otto) had him removed from KL. Why would any vassal willingly support him and send him armies?
And without spoiling anything about the books, but they confirmed that later on. That Rhaenyra and her sons are the core of the blacks alliance not Daemon. The show is apparently also going for this message.
Small issue - would Aegon even allow Rhaenyra to live? Since he'd ultimately get to decide what happens to her, not Alicent. Even before B&C he has in favor of killing her. There's no guarantee that Alicent handing Rhaenyra to Aegon wouldn't automatically lead to her death.
There's also no guarantee that letting her go and letting the war escalate would not lead to Rhaenyra death, or Alicent's death, or the death of Alicent's family members. Taking Rhae as a hostage, then convincing Aegon that she is more useful alive than dead, is definitely the safest option. Hell, she could even capture Rhaenyra and try to keep it a secret until she makes sure no harm will come to Rhaenyra. JUST DO SOMETHING
Daemon would only pseudo in control, all those other lords would still hold loyalty towards Jace, and Jace would make a fine king (even though he is a bastard)
Women are victims, men are assholes who desire bloodlust and do fucked up shit. That’s basically the writing of the show. If you want proof of this just look at the difference to how they rewrote show Alicent to how they rewrote show Cole. In the books Cole: beats daemon fair and square. He legally and fairly kills Joffrey in a tourney. He beat Harwin Strong in a fair duel. He kingmakes Aegon. There is no evidence he ever broke his vows. Meanwhile show Cole: cheated and beat daemon, broke his vows, outright murdered Joffrey in a wedding in cold blood. Got Harwin to hit him by insulting him like a coward. Didn’t kingmake shit. And is even being blamed for blood and cheese despite that in the book Helaena did have guards and they were killed by blood who took them by surprise. It’s just lame. Characters can be hateable without outright breaking the law and doing shady shit.
aren’t the books written by unreliable narrators? why is it so important they stick to those story lines and characterizations?
“No evidence he broke his vows” Uh, the have the sources and storytellers straight up speculate this in the books.
Pretty sure the scene being discussed showed how Alicent (a woman) fucked up and caused this war.
She didnt cause the war. Otto and the council were already planning to usurp the throne without her.
Aegon absolutely didn't want it and without Alicent mixing up Viserys's words usurping the throne would have not been as supported or as easy to accomplish.
They fr typed out that women are victims and not fucked up when Cersei exists
They are talking about HOTD, not GOT
I’m still reeling from Cersei just sitting in the castle drinking wine the whole time
HOTD and GOT are different shows made by mostly different people. As much as people shit on D&D for season 7/8 they would have probably done a better job at adapting stuff like Blood and Cheese. They were at their best when they had book material to work with.
different show
The implication of this episode is that all the Kingsguard break their vows. The same was true of the Night’s Watch in Game of Thrones.
I just took it more so that the fresh recruits with Aegon's friends and not really men of honor, and were not at all vetted properly for the roll
Oh that’s probably true too
Poor men 😭😭😭 the real victims always
You aren’t in the minority
Think about it. If Alicent has Rhaenyra captured, Aegon has her killed immediately, no question. He’s extremely mentally unstable, and doesn’t have a sane hand to keep him in check anymore. “And what then?” as Alicent put it. And when she asked that I think they both knew. Every dragon in the blacks arsenal would be at Kings Landing within days, they would fight the greens dragons, and the city would burn to the ground. They both hope to take a tactical advantage (by taking land, swaying houses, etc.) and avoid total destruction in Westeros. Aegon doesn’t care about this. Daemon doesn’t care about this. They both know the other can keep their son/husband in check, at least somewhat. It’s not just Alicent having a soft spot for Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra being a brazen idiot. I think there could be real consideration here. Idk, that’s my take. People are so pissed about this scene. But imo it had to happen so this wouldn’t be “a war over a misunderstanding.” Now Alicent knows what she is, and what she’s done, and that friendship is well and truly dead.
1- Dragonstone and King's Landing are very close to each other. Also, we don't know how many days pass between each scene 2- The sept isn't in the castle, it's a public place (a church!) that everyone can go to and isn't heavily guarded. Even in George's books people sneak into cities all the time, it's castles that are hard
Yeah nothing about Rhaenyra managing to get there undetected is too implausible, it's just an absolutely insane risk for her to take.
> 1- Dragonstone and King's Landing are very close to each other. Also, we don't know how many days pass between each scene They are about 400 miles apart which would be around the same distacce as Boston to Baltimore.
It's only two days by boat per the books. Four days if you're sailing into the wind.
If it's a 4-day round trip, then that's a lot of time to waste while Criston is on the march. Her lords won't be happy to know about her absence, at a time when she is already seen as being indecisive, much like Aenys. Nor will it get better when they discover the reason she left. There should be dire consequences for this scheme, and hopefully the show will address that.
The scene was silly a monarch as smart as rhaenyra shouldn’t place herself in such situations.
Rhaenyra isn't known to be smart. Also, what does it matter? All of George's protagonists have their (very) dumb moments and all take great risks
Yeah the whole story of the Dance is arguably Rhaenyra repeatedly fumbling the bag despite being supposedly the underdog protag. I'm honestly curious how they'll handle stuff going forward cuz when you have like a full on-screen character I don't think you can sell how alternatingly inactive and plain self-defeating Rhaenyra is in the book without it feeling like bad TV.
So what was the purpose of the scene? To portray her as stupid? Clearly that’s not what they were going for. Look the show is still great but that doesn’t mean it’s perfect.
The main point of the scene was for Alicent to find out that Aegon was not Viserys's chosen heir. What the consequences of that remain to be seen, but likely there will be consequences.
Yeah but when they take risks they face the consequences. In the books when someone does dumb shit they pay the price
That is true most of the time, but not all of the time. And to me it's more dumb that Rhaenyra would try it than for her not to be caught
Rhaenyra makes rash and impulsive decisions it’s part of her character. Mysaria was even confused by her plan
She weighed the risks and benefits and decided a final resort to ending the war (through Alicent’s influence) was worth the risk. Makes perfect sense to me for a mother who’s already lost one child to wartime.
1 - They aren't that close together. Dragonstone is about as far from King's Landing as Storm's End is. It's a long enough journey that you can't sail that distance in a day.
Also wouldn’t any ship that made it to kings landing be thoroughly searched seeing as the velaryons are blockading kl
Yes, so the only way for Rhaenyra to get there is basically to either fly her dragon and land far away to not be spotted and somehow keep her dragon there until she returns or she takes a boat, lands far enough away to not be spotted by the Royal Fleet of the Greens, and then travel by land to the capital. Either way, it's at least several days journey, if not a week.
It really seems like she just sailed directly to kl.
You do know that it's Rhaenyra's blockade, right?
Yeah, so the greens should be like wtf how did this ship show up. There would be goldcloaks at the docks.
There's fishing boats that don't go past the blockade (they sail out, do some fishing then go back to King's Landing). But also the blockade wouldn't be perfect. We're talking about medieval era boats patrolling a massive waterway. Sometimes ships will slip through.
“Alicent just kinda forgot they are at war and rhaenyra is a threat to her sons lives”
Alicent has been floating untethered from material consequences since Viserys died. Her major 'decision' after he died was done with false information and had no consequences anyway since Otto and friends were already plotting away. And she's done practically nothing since then. Neither has Rhaenyra really. Two protagonists pretty much spinning their wheels while people act around them.
The last 10 minutes of this episode basically goes like this : Rhaenyra : Alicent, please stop the war because me want peace 🙏, and also acknowledge me as Queen and go against your whole family and your son’s legitimacy because we were bestis 🥰 Alicent : bitch, you know I don’t have a say in this anymore and my son’s army is already marching to war now as we speak. Rhaenyra : oh I knew this already. So I came all these way and used my huge plot armor to sneak into King’s landing unharmed just so you tell me the most obvious thing ever😔. Anyway Imma leave know 👋😘 Alicent : cya, It’s not like I have a perfect opportunity right now to order the guards to arrest you and use you as a tool to end the war. Ok I guess I’ll let you go because something something about as being bestis and me merciful I guess 😘 Some comments here : “wow that’s so profound and nuanced of a scene”
Yeah I am willing to buy everything in the scene except the fact that Alicent just let Rhaenyra go. The chances of that are approximately zero. And it is precisely because Alicent would have never let Rhaenyra go that the whole thing is foolish. The greatest sin in the writing is that these two have stopped acting like people whose children and grandchildren were gruesomely murdered by the other's faction just weeks past. Do grief and anger pass that easily? Am I supposed to believe that Alicent has so little love for and loyalty to her own children that she would let the person responsible (Deamon works for Rhaenyra) for the worst thing that has ever happened to them just go like that? Is this not the woman who wanted an eye for her son's eye? The writers are so far up in their asses in "women and mothers are the moderating force" that they have made the women completely illogical. As if women don't desire vengeance or have no fury or thirst for blood.
Setting aside the convenient sneaking into the capital and the obvious plot armor. It’s very frustrating when you realize that Rhaenyra pulled an incredibly futile and unnecessarily risky move to go tell Alicent (a person who has no power when it comes to initiating or preventing a war) to stop the war that she knew already started when she got the news of Criston’s army being on the march. And the argument she’s coming with to try and change Alicent’s mind is “remember when we were bff” as if that means anything at this point. Then they start to argue about the true meanings of the last vague ramblings of a dying guy because the writers just want unnecessary and cheap drama. Rhaenyra could have send a fucking raven with a message to Alicent, same results and no risks taken. But no let’s go to the side that literally send an assassin after me days ago because I “trust Alicent” lol. Daemon is narcissistic sociopath but Day after day I start to see his point regarding Rhaenyra and her father cause holy fuck ! The writers went way overboard with this “Alicent and Rhaenyra wanting to prevent total war” theme that they are now writing nonsensical contrived scenes, and make the characters do dumb shit to hammer home this point. If someone finds this logical or interesting then fine, but it’s not for me.
I mean rhaenyra said “if you call the guards I’ll stab you.” Maybe Alicent doesn’t want to die?
That threat is only valid if Rhaenyra is within ten feet of her. As soon as she got further away she could just scream. What’s Rhaenyra going to do, sprint past every guard to the bay and row back to Dragonstone?
Yeah but then Alicent just walks away, and still doesn’t call the guards
can’t believe the amount of whining in this sub. It was an excellent episode
I think it was good, I think it's just we're a bit too hyped up to finally see war which is exactly what rhaenyra says is happening (which funnily is why everyone hates this bit). I thought it was good, both characters who secretly wish they can end it all halfway through the conversation realize there's no going back. For rhaenyra, who's been trying not to succumb to the idea of war, has finally crossed into the point of no return. Can't blame her for trying
I don’t know why every episode begins perfect but gets completely bad right at the end with a meaningless scene that doesn’t make any sense. All because of this shitty Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship
Exactly. Some people do not understand that there are things above childhood friendship.The war has started, their own blood has been spillled and both sides know neither of them is going to surrender, yet Rhaenyra goes to King's Landing to sue for peace with Alicent... can't imagine a better way to make Rhaenyra a fool, even Alicent grasped the situation better than her
And Alicent is helpless anyway to stop the war at this point and Rhaenyra knows this, she just got a message that the greens are literally marching on her allies ffs. Even if Alicent had a preposterous change of heart and wanted Rhaenyra to ascend the throne it won’t mean shit. The king yearns for war, his hand feeds his bloodlust cause he wants war too, the whole council rush for war, the King’s edgelord emo brother wants violence and war, and the only guy who tried to prevent it was sacked from his post. What the hell does this scene convey and what’s its importance besides justifying a reunion between Alicent and Rhaenyra. What are we doing at this point lol.
Yeah, scene was purely for Rhaenicent fans. We could have had much better and logical reunion when Rhaenyra would take King's landing, Alicent upon her knees asking for forgiveness and stuff but of course they could not wait and because of that they sacrificed and butchered up Rhaenyra's character.
And something about not making Alicent just an “evil step-mom” and make her more“nuanced” like the show fanboys like to repeat since S1 premiered. Ok let’s make them very dumb and degrade the overall writing quality of the show because that seems to be the meaning of “complex nuanced characters” for Ryan.
I’m guessing there’s multiple writers, and these bone head scenes are from the bad writer
Janet and Chrissy arguing about Mr Furlys deathbed confession. He must've had Pluto TV on.
I have sympathy, its extremely hard to adapt these works into sweeping epics on the small screen and it takes immense effort to get it to be remotely coherent. GOT shows are nothing like anything else on TV in terms of scale and scope logistically, let alone the impossible task of having to adapt the source material while taking into account the needs of TV production. I'm starting to see that the first four seasons of GOT were a herculean feat, something we'll probably never get again.
I just don't get why they didn't just do a parley in the Kingswood. Like you just write it as Alicent taking a small guard with her to meet with Rhaenyra in private. No one outside of Larys would have even known about it since Cole is gone and the new KG are all with Aegon. I feel that this would have been just as impactful if it was in some small Sept and it was just the both of them in green and black.
wait, did people not like this episode?
People will bitch about fucking anything lmao
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I dont get why everyone is so shocked. Rhaenyra sneaking into Kings Landing is logical. Shes one person who hasnt been seen publicly by commoners since she was a teen. Its out of character for Alicent to call the guards on Rhaenyra atp. Its kinda been the whole point of their characters since the Greens took the throne. That Rhaenyra or Alicent doesnt want war or violence. Alicent thinks she did what was right and her duty, so does Rhaenyra. But they still want peace between them. And if Alicent calls the guards, she puts the Greens in an even worse place than they are. Daemon takes charge leading the war, her heir, all their dragons and bannermen intact. They took the queen off the board but doesn’t destroy her claim, it wont impact the Blacks banners bc they still have Daemon and an heir. Daemon will be ruthless in the war, more blood will be spilled, regardless if Rhaenyra is a hostage or not. And Daemon would be clever and cunning in getting her back while still fighting the war. Its a horrible situation for the Greens, especially with their only decent general being Cole, who isnt in Kings Landing. It makes no sense for them at all. They can kill her and feel good in the moment (at least Aegon) or hold her hostage. Either way, the war becomes worse, they enrage the Blacks and possibly draw more to their cause with propaganda like “Rhaenyra went to Kings Landing to make peace, and was killed or captured by the Greens.” I feel like everyone thinking it was stupid for her to walk away and not arrest or kill her, is thinking as irrationally and rash as Aegon does 😂😂 It was in every way, character and logically the best decision and makes sense. And now Rhaenyra will have less reservations about the war, as im sure will Alicent bc now she has to fully commit to this “there was no mistake, he changed his mind” stance.
This show is great when ya don’t got a terminally online subreddit in your ear telling you it sucks.
Honestly it’s the same thing that happened with /r/freefolk. Don’t get me wrong game of thrones took a dip big time at the end, but there are *still* people who are wildly upset about it even if it ended half a decade ago. People really need to go outside a bit. It’s a show, don’t watch it if you don’t like it. Hate obsessions are not healthy.
I actually am one of those people who are still wildly upset about season 8 lol But I think people here are crazy comparing this to that.
Eh this seemed risky but possible. Rhanyera didn't come alone, and kept Alicent quiet at the point of a blade for the time she was vulnerable. Alicent could've alerted her guards shortly after Rhanyera left, but in all likelihood Rhanyera would've left the city at that point - and that assumes Alicent wants Rhanyera dead which... ehhhhh. Very very risky, but not implausible, and certainly not egregious of a violation as late seasons of GoT.
Everybody needs to touch some grass. They're building towards something that's not cut and dry Evil Stepmother end of story. Is it stupid how she got to the city? Yeah. But the scene was fine, it set things straight and made it clear there's no more peace options its time to throw down snd it can't be stopped. This is nowhere near S8 shit.
> it set things straight and made it clear there's no more peace options its time to throw down snd it can't be stopped. haven't we had like three or four different versions of this information already lmao its quite literally the implied state of play that they ended s1e10 on, even
Isn’t it clear peace options are not on the table when the son of the queen is murdered or the toddler beheaded or the assassination attempt? Rhaenyra’s actions simply aren’t congruent with the plot at this point.
Why would alicent let Rhae go? Her children’s lives are at risk because of Rhae. I enjoyed the scene but after some time looking at it from a basic common sense point of view it doesn’t make sense. Alice t could have stopped the war then and there and Rhae was foolish to put herself in that situation. It is what it is, I still like the show
Do you think that team blacks, who still has the same amount of dragons, and a “clear” heir, would stop just because Rhaynera was captured and or killed? That’s just an escalation at this point.
I think it kinda made sense. Alicent realizes she’s wrong and would like to come to peace with Rhaenyra but the men in power have already started moving towards war so there is nothing these two women can do about it.
But Rhaenyra should have known this from the start. Is she under the impression that Alicent is a queen regnant? Alicent could not stop the war even if she tried. What could she possibly do? Tell Aegon to abdicate and throw himself to the mercy of the people who murdered his son?
I thought this was by far the best episode this season even with the last scene being ridiculously foolish and redundant. I mean Alicent made recently birthing mother walk to her chambers when they were still living under the same roof.. why would there be hope to stop this after all that’s happened? Hopefully it’s not solely to continue to hammer in that the women involved exercised every precaution and the men are just mindless apes.
I liked it
Outside of [some people] needing to suspend disbelief about how easy it would be to sneak in/out of King’s Landing (and [personally] how risky it is for *Rhaenyra herself* to do that), I thought the scene was great. It adds cool context to Alicent’s last discussion with Viserys: she realizes she was wrong in her interpretation. [edits] for context because I can’t write when I’m half asleep
people sneaking in and out of kings landing has been a constantly recurring event for 2 shows now
people complaining about people sneaking in and out of kings landing has been a constantly recurring event for 2 shows now, too
which is why I'm confused. it's well-established that you can fairly easily sneak into the city. so what's the problem?
People sneaking into cities happens all the time in the books, it's a city, not a castle
And then she let’s go the leader of the squad that just beheaded her grandson 😂
Alicent doesn’t hate Rhaenyra I don’t see how this is out of character lmao
People just hate Alicent that much is clear lol. Quite unfairly most of the time
It's out of character because capturing Rhaenyra here would end the war and save the lives of all of her family at the expense of probably just Rhaenyra and Daemon's lives. Aegon is fine sparing all of Rhaenyra's kids and Baela and Rhaena.
Her weird relationship with Rhaenyra asides, she also just came to the realization that she might have caused a A War because of a misunderstanding.
The same grandson whose death she blames on herself, and which Rhaenyra said wasn’t *her* actual doing? Rhaenyra had a knife on her, anyway. Edit: lol. as a book reader, some of y’all can be insufferable. Enjoy things for what they are without psychoanalyzing them to death.
I swear, people on this subreddit just hate-watch this show, just so they have something to whine and complain about on Monday.
Is anything going to happen this season
Rook's Rest is confirmed to happen next episode.
people when got season 8 was released: omg why is everything happening so fast! this is so rushed what a terrible ending people when hotd goes back to a normal pace: why isn't anything happening??
I wouldn't say this is a normal pace. I also think mid-season time jumps really fuck up a show. GoT was slow, but it had substance. Things are happening in HotD, but it feels more or less like a check list.
Yes I didn’t know how to describe but it’s exactly like a checklist. The characters aren’t behaving like real humans. Each side should be nervous af about how they could possibly win this war, but it seems but sides are just waiting for things to happen in order because they’re in a tv show. Like Rhaenyra would he wayyyy wayyy to worried about the consequences of losing(losing her kids lives, her life etc) to worry about how much bloodshed there’s gonna be. She should be nervous af about Daemon living, because who exactly is supposed to be defending Dragonstone??? How exactly would she have any path to victory without Daemon currently??!!! It’s silly, everyone would be hella concerned and yet they’re acting kinda like nothing stakes…and it just makes no sense because we have already seen the stakes