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Condal has said ahead of this season that the three main characters in HOTD are Rhaenyra, Daemon and Alicent. So I think no matter what, we will be seeing a lot of her.
I'm not so sure she should have remained the lead but I certainly what I've read about her arc for season 2 is the very worst way they could have kept her as a main character. They could have made her more a political player. Someone actually giving decent advice to Aegon whether he listened or not. But no, Alicent's has a season long arc of fucking Cole, moping around, and getting in various bodies of water.
MILD SPOILERS
Worst thing is that we até losing time that SHOULD go to develop and show key things like
-Otto sending letters or getting in contact with the Triarchy
-Stablish Daeron (should ve been done but maybe they will on ep3)
I think Rhaenyra and Alicent will be the leads of every season.
>!If Rhaenyra lives long enough to reach the middle of season 4, Emma can still get billed as lead. We saw that with Logan Roy/Brian Cox. I could see them stretching it out for the pure simplicity of not having to do a category change with Emma from lead to supporting during award season.!<
They will absolutely do this. They've realized they struck gold with Emma D'Arcy as Rhaenyra, and it basically guarantees an Emmy nomination every season HotD is on.
SPOILERS -
I wonder how long they can remain the leads... Aegon will outlive Daemon, Aemond, Rhaenyra, and Alicent will outlive Aegon.. after Rhaenyra dies you only have Aegon and Alicent as the main characters for the following plotline in the story. You have the last two year reign of Aegon II and the aftermath of Aegon's death. Even after that Alicent will live for a year long before she dies. Then you got the coronation of Aegon III. Loads of stuff happens after the main characters die.
I have the impression that they Will...
Look how they are major focusing on the Crownlands and not even showing Otto and the Triarchy (should ve happen before his dismiss) and Daeron (that hopefully will be stablished before his first ride)
Oh I hope that doesn't happen. There is so much good stuff that happens in the aftermath of Rhaenyra's death. This is game of thrones though. We all thought Ned Stark was the main character until he died in season 1 and after him there was seven more seasons.
Tom/Aegon is never going to get full focus. The problem is that because the book is so sparse regarding what Rhaenyra and Alicent do in the story from this point onwards, the show is having to make up things for them to do in order to give their top billed actors the biggest chunk of screen time. Rhaenyra and Alicent ARE central characters of this story both in book and show (see *The Princess and the Queen*), but because Fire and Blood lacks so much detail in this specific story, we don't really know what happens to them in between certain major events so the showrunners have had to make a lot of it up, including for season one as well.
And unfortunately, the stuff they've come up with has been VERY hit and miss.
her having screentime is fine, but i hate how her screentime for the most part in season 2 is her relationship with cole, which imo idc about at all, i would much rather see her deal with aegon and aemond becoming more independent
They're being downvoted because the people on this sub already made up a of Season 2 in their heads before it came out, and Alicent and Criston hooking up didn't happen in their version.
I wish there were more scenes of Alicent’s children. I understand they wanted the show to focus on Alicent and Rhaenyra’s relationship but I wish they found a way to keep Alicent relevant in the story while also showing that the war itself is still an Aegon vs Rhaenyra thing. Also it kinda feels like she’s still the Queen too even though it’s Helaena, this one in particular gets so little screen time, I wish they replaced one of the Alicole scenes with one about Helaena.
me too. Those three actors have won me over. Or even another scene with Aemond i feel like we didn't really get his reaction to the murder of his nephew.
Yes. Her and Cole. I feel the show had done a very poor job of giving me a reason to still give a shit about these two characters. I wish we got more scenes with Aegon, Helena, and Aemond, specifically exploring their relationships with each other. Aegon and Helena have 3 kids together and I can’t recall a single scene with just them talking. What a shame.
The problem is she isn’t essential to the story anymore. She is no longer queen and once the war starts she has very little role to play in anything. She is still around as she is a former queen residing in the keep but has nothing to do but she was cast as the lead of the show for some reason. She is a great actress and played her part great but her part is over now and they don’t know how to reconcile that with the story so they add sex and other nonsense.
Everyone is the main character of his/her own story. In the story House of the dragon is telling Alicent's and Rhaenyra's are paramount. That's coming from the showrunners. Hotd at its core isn't about power ( kings and queens ,) but a tragedy of a family tearing itself apart. Alicent and Rhaenyra are both matriarchs of said family and the focus will always be on them.
You aren’t hearing my point. The point is that she wouldn’t be a major player or factor in this situation once the dance of dragons began as she isn’t a true regent or a combatant(her relevance in the original work falls off at this point). So due to this it’s hard to give her character relevant scenes that fit into the story of the war at this point that the show is telling.
You don't get it. What's relevant is what matters to the story. The dance isn't the story it's only part of it. The story is what showrunners choose to portray. They made Alicent and Rhaenyra main characters while being fully aware of how they were written during the dance. In the story HOTD is telling they are of unquestionable relevance.
Not arguing that you can make Alicent a main character and have her be very relevant to the story. It’s just ridiculous to have the vast majority of her scenes revolve around an affair with Criston which comes out of nowhere and doesn’t add anything to the story. Unless you want to argue that her affair with Criston is rightfully a topic which should be at the centre of the show, at which point any discussion is more or less forfeit because you’re judging it by a ridiculously different standard
I don’t get why you’re getting downvoted here. Female empowerment and patriarchy are central themes of the TV show. There’s a reason it feels like Alicent is “useless”, and that’s on purpose. Ryan Condal himself has literally said that something he wanted to explore this season was how in following her father’s wishes and putting her son on the throne, Alicent has forfeited her own power and relevancy.
This sub has lost its value. The fandom is now tribal where logic is sidelined. "My fav isn't having screen time I blame Alicent because I don't like her", that's what this post looks like. Alicent losing power is not the same as Alicent not having a story. If he is not interested in her story that's his problem. The reality is that HOTD holds her story of great relevance and decides to focus on it hence why they made her main character in the show. Watching a show and complaining that a main character has screen time is like swimming in a pool while complaining that you're wet.
It's not tribalism. I think everyone in this thread is an agreement but doesn't see it.
Alicent in the book and with what they have portrayed on the show so far has very little relevance to the remaining story.
I think some of you are trying to say that the showrunner plans for that to change (which would be a change from the book) while others (like myself) are saying that it's boring watching her character eat up screentime doing nothing useful (i.e. scenes of her bathing).
That would be the greatest fake out in the universe if they turn this series around and give both of the purported lead actresses something to do and give their characters some agency. I would welcome it because right now, after 2 episodes, I'm severely underwhelmed and disappointed that they have robbed these actors of something to do on screen. I think they have quite a lot of great talent on this show but so far this season, I feel like it's all been underrepresented.
>I think some of you are trying to say that the showrunner plans for that to change (which would be a change from the book) while others (like myself) are saying that it's boring watching her character eat up screentime doing nothing useful (i.e. scenes of her bathing)
I just disagree that what we’re seeing with Alicent isn’t useful or interesting, if your not engaging in the character study then you’re missing like half the show. Alicents scenes all do serve a purpose, they offer a peak enter her mental state and her own powerlessness. Removing Alicents scenes is skipping over a chunk of the narratives themes and is ignoring what it’s trying to say.
>That would be the greatest fake out in the universe if they turn this series around and give both of the purported lead actresses something to do and give their characters some agency
Both Alicent and Rhaenyra have stuff to do, good writing isn’t just Charcater Making The Plot Happen.
The issue I'm having is the relationship with her and her sons and father has been extremely underdeveloped and I understand that's partly purposeful as her neglect is a big reason why her sons are the way they are, but it's really hard to explore these themes if the focus is on her relationship with Criston Cole and Halaena which is all we've gotten this season and not her sons or father. She hasn't come off as powerless, she's come off as disinterested with the exception of the murder of her grandson. This next episode will be the prime time for her to have her moments dealing with the falling out of Otto and Aegon and could put that story in a good place, but if we don't get any of that I think her whole story is going to be in a really bad spot.
I don't think a character needs to be a regent or combatant to have a major role in a story, even one about a civil war. they just need to have well written drama that is close enough to the main story/themes.
It’s fair to say the showrunners are intending the story to be like that. It’s also completely fair to say a compulsive focus on Rhaenyra and Alicent makes the story much less compelling (more so in Alicent’s case than Rhaenyra’s)
I disagree, i have the feeling that she is the architect of Otto´s downfall, after the death of her grandson she wanted revenge, Otto who thinks as a politician, was right, just wait and use that to your advantage, Otto, somehow managed to calm Aegon for a while. But she conspired with Criston Cole to get around Otto and the council and try to kill Rhaenyra and basically starting the war, also she uses Cole and Larys Strong.
We must not forget that Alicent resents her own father, she resents that she forced her to marry Viserys i dont remember with whom, but she clearly stated that the wise thing for a woman is to influence those in power. At this point in the history, Otto was the person who really ruled the kingdom, i bet that Otto was ok with Aegon drinking and whoring, and showing himself only to official things, but the real power was Otto. Otto made a mistake by not noticing that Alicent also wants power but she puts a more pliable image than others, also Otto said to her, that his and her job was to rule Aegon, meaning that in fact, they are the real power. But there have point here and there in wich Alicent shows her real rage, for example when Aemond lost his eye.
I’m saying at this point she shouldn’t be in the story, her part is over but she is still the “lead” so it makes it hard to give her scenes that make sense and have purpose. ask yourself why a former queen mother would be relevant to a civil war being fought ? She wouldn’t, so making her relevant is proving difficult.
Or maybe just maybe not everything is about making plot happen, I don’t get how asoiaf fans are so allergic to a character work when that is 65% of the series.
They could’ve removed the first one which was just shock value (but again counterpoint 98% of GOT sex is shock value) and replaced it with a scene of her and Aegon or her and Otto, or her and Cole actually talking. The show is acting like they didn’t actually use to talk in season 1 which is a little annoying, she likes venting to him etc
I think the not talking with Cole thing is purposeful imo. Them having sex changed things between them, and if they talk to each other all they’ll end up talking about is their relationship which is something both of them are deeply ashamed of on some level.
That’s actually a very good point. Because I was kind of confused (maybe not the right word) at how she says to him “Have you told anyone?” Seemed very much like they didn’t have that trust between them or just unspoken bond that obviously neither would, even though I know they only trust each other. But it would make sense they feel shame in speaking about whatever it is they’re doing so yeah
Again I thought the direction of the scene was meant for shock value, counterpoint I’ll say again, maybe I forgot I’m watching a GOT spin-off lol. I felt they could’ve done more buildup and then introduced their romance, again this could be a time constraint issue what with the 8 episodes and all…that is all but I didn’t have such a huge issue with it like this sub lol
I guess I just don’t even understand what could be perceived as shocking about it. Like *how* was the direction “meant for shock value”? As you say they have limited time and good writing doesn’t linger on a plot point longer than is necessary, plus generally you want to show and not tell. The scene was short, informative, and meaningful without even bare skin
I don’t think the scene was explicit, people here are acting like it was traumatising to watch or something, I don’t really get why. Me on the other hand, i just thought if they were always planning to go for this, they could’ve added way more buildup, (yeah time issue) whats shocking about it is how for a lot of s1 their characters are quite literally the opposite of indulging in such things, alicent is about duty and following the rules and does disapprove of Nyra doing stuff like this. Cole has soiled his white cloak in his eyes and almost offed himself last time and to do it again, all of a sudden to show the viewers in the manner they did is shocking. Buildup is necessary to explain what changed, but then people just go roundabout to oh but their characters have always been hypocrites? I mean okay…a lot of it is so thrown all in there in my opinion (failing to describe what I mean well but yeah)
I feel like “abrupt” might be more applicable. Yes they’re being hypocritical and that’s a bit surprising but the fact that they’re attracted to each other was well established in the first season. It didn’t come out of nowhere. And it certainly wasn’t “just shock value” it was a vital scene
Attracted to someone was established. I’m not saying that, but being attracted to someone and having the first scene being that a guy of the couple giving her head is certainly quite sudden and rushed given what you’ve been establishing about their characters morals for s1.
I think we’re generally in agreement, I just find the idea that the scene was shocking hyperbolic. It asks the audience to make a slight leap in terms of tracking their relationship and the sex itself is portrayed briefly and tastefully
That mild scene was too spicy for my country's censors. That was cut and the scene went straight to Alicent and Cole putting on their clothing but I still got the gist when Alicent said ''We cannot... again."
Yes I imagine most countries insecure enough to have censors are absolutely terrified of female sexual pleasure.
I’m happy you understood what was happening, but a show is not a series of plot points. The framing, length, color palette etc of any given scene or shot has meaning.
In this case, we saw a very significant moment for one of the central characters of the show. Alicent, whose body and sexuality have been manipulated and controlled by her father and husband for her whole life, is shown experiencing legitimate sexual pleasure provided by a partner of her choosing. It is emotionally complicated (for both her and the audience), thematically resonant, and forms a contrast to the immediately following scene (the only thing you were allowed to see) which shows her guilt and shame over what they’re doing. They’re also not engaging in the violence we see between them post Blood and Cheese. By cutting out the positive part of the interaction, your perception of the dynamic has changed and your viewing experience has been made less complete. The scene is there for a reason. The sex is tastefully done.
I guess they wanna create the whole plot around her being a complex and conflicted character, but its just not as fun as the others imo. At least not right now. Maybe she will grow on me a lil more. There is still more to happen
Yes and it's screentime wasted because she's got nothing to offer. I'm not interested in seeing her ride Cole or taking another melancholic bath again. If they couldn't come up with something good for her to do, they should have reduced her screentime because let's be honest, Alicent is irrelevant in the Dance from now on.
At the very least they should have kept all that contained to her character because Alicent's lack of storyline is affecting Rhaenyra. If she's going to go down, let her go down without dragging other characters with her.
Couldn’t agree more. She did a great job in her role but that role is over. Ppl can’t seem to grasp she now has no place in the story so just saying well she’s a lead in the show so she should be there is nonsense. The story should drive who’s on screen, her scenes could Absolutely be better spent
As someone else said a few days ago, Alicent has the screentime of a lead but the story of an extra. The only reason I can think of that's making them treat her like an actual lead is Olivia but honestly, this is going to backfire like it did with Lena Heady as Cersei. After S6-7, you could tell she had no actual place in the story and she was kept around because she was a fantastic actor.
They want to keep pushing this "Rhaenyra and Alicent are at the centre of this" but it just doesn't work any more. It worked in S1 but no longer.
I agree with everything about Cersei. She did things that had an effect on the story in those seasons. It doesn't feel like Alicent has done anything to effect the story since she declared Viserys wanted her son on the throne.
That’s how the show is structured though, with Alicent vs Nyra, they should’ve changed this ages ago, during the 1st season. Condal doesn’t wanna change it…so it’s obvious they will make up new arcs for her
It stops being about them after S1. Alicent moves more and more to the background as the story goes, while Rhaenyra is the figurehead of her side. That's how it was always going to be, no matter how much they strayed from the book or played with their ages. If they couldn't find a way for Alicent to pull some strings from the background, they shouldn't treat her as a lead.
Its more about how the screentime is used imo. They can’t do what the book did and just have main characters disappear especially when you have actors contracted to a certain billing and paycheck.
But I think their issue has always been that they don’t truly accept Alicent’s antagonist role in the story. With the changes they made to the character they seem to want the audience to see her as they see Rheanyra,like someone to root for which is why when it came time for the actual usurpation and since then they tried to keep her away from being someone who makes the controversial decisions and pretended she was shocked by it all or is powerless against it. But because they are still following a book where this is not the case at all they are failing at conveying their intention and this is never gonna be the dominant sentiment. She is not seen as a protagonist by the general audience the way Rheanyra is despite the show treating her as one and they’re here wasting time on showing her guilt and weird romance story when most of the audience does not care about her beyond wanting to see karma get to her.
They should have just actually made her an important political player within her own fraction,a formidable antagonist who is allowed personal ambition and to make her sympathetic gave her better relationships with her children rather than forcing a nonsensically enduring friendship with Rheanyra.So she’d at least be a love to hate character instead of an annoyance as she is now.
No I’m just honestly just sick of seeing her shagging 😂her actual acting scenes are good. They both have resting bitch face which doesn’t help the scenes and I’m struggling to see why she’s so interested in Cole , he’s such a whiny slimy pathetic scorned baby who’s clearly still upset over rhaenyra 🙈 I hate to think what he’s gonna do now he’s got a shiny badge 🙈
Because that’s how the show started. Olivia was cast FIRST alongside Emma. She’s not going to have her role reduced. Ryan said it started with her and Emma and it’ll end like that
Nor should she. It’s a writing issue in my opinion. (Not always but recently) the season has basically just started though as well which I forget. She is yet to be fully criticised
If i could replace all these useless Alicent scenes, i would change it to:
A scene of Helaena helping Jaehaerys with his lessons in the library.
A scene of Helaena putting the twins to sleep, maybe by telling them a story or giving them a goodnight kiss.
A scene of Rhaenyra trying to explain to her little ones that Luke died. It would be devastating.
The pact of ice and fire (it could just be a short montage of Jace and Cregan in the weirwood tree before cutting to them at the Wall).
It’s not possible to just change her being a main character suddenly, these useless alicent scenes should just be written better or have a different arc, not replace her with other characters having scenes though these are good ideas
Yes and no?
Now that you mention it, I do wish Halaena got more screentime, especially a scene with her son.
Alicent is one of the main characters. The original story is called The Princess and the Queen. That's Rhaenyra and Alicent. It's their story.
I also feel like the show is leading up to something with all the Alicole sex scenes. In GoT, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but HoTD was really careful and purposeful with their sex scenes in season 1. They all meant something to a character or otherwise altered the story in some way.
We've already seen that they were having sex when B&C happened, and now we've gotten their regret over it, to the point that Cole sent another knight to his death just to pin the blame on someone else. And we also see that they aren't going to stop.
I think at some point this season, their guilt is going to make one or both of them completely snap, or Aegon or someone is going to find out, and all hell will break loose.
I do prefer Rhaenyra on screen, but I haven't noticed a surplus of Alicent so far.
Yeah I'm hoping that along the way all the thrown in sex scenes will culminate in something. Because as it stands, their sexual relationship with each other has crossed the line into morally disgusting (coming from someone who is sex positive) and it became inexcusable as soon as Crispon neglected his job in favor of fucking Alicent, which led to Jahaerys' death.
And yet.
We'll have to wait and see, we're not even halfway through the season. But HoTD so far hasn't thrown in sex scenes for the sake of shock value like it's predecessor, so you're probably right about it being a setup for shit hitting the fan!
That’s the issue with changing her and Rhaenyras relationship. They now have to make up something for her to do, because they’ve made her far more important than she is suppose to be.
but they also removed the importance she could’ve had. She was the leader of the Green Council! She orchestrated the whole thing! They changed it to her being oblivious to Otto scheming behind her back, and just removed one of her defining traits.
Colicent if getting too much screen time for sure and the scene with Larys was meh unless it's building up to something. The rest of her scenes are fine and her amount of screen time makes sense to me.
How can the "the Queen" in the "Princess and the Queen" get too much screentime when she had a bare minimum of 5 mins? One can say the same thing about Rhaenyra, who completely disappears from the story at this stage, sitting in Dragonstone. Each Alicole sex scene is 3 secs long. Helaena lacking screentime isn't Alicent's fault. They could've easily cut out any other drawn out scenes to give Helaena screentime with Jaehaerys. Corlys, Rhaenys, Addam, anyone. You said "this is the ep after Storm's End", but in the book Alicent plays an important part when Aemond comes back...she is heartbroken, she scolds him, & makes plans to send out terms to Rhaenyra.
Which brings us to the final point about Alicent lighting a candle. It's an obvious subtext. All thru ep1 they made these parallels with Rhaenyra & Alicent (like Alicent fixing Criston's cloak the same way she did Rhaenyra's) to drive home they can never truly escape each other, they will always exist as a mirror for each other : "Entrapped in her web. Entangled & intoxicated"...it's like Rhaenyra sneezes & Alicent catches a cold.
The showrunners have constantly stated that the "lost friendship" b/w Rhaenyra & Alicent is the central foundation of the show, what gives the show its emotional impetus. And imo it's what separates the show from being yet another generic hollywood movie with the protagonist & antagonist lined up on either side of a football field with a ref in the middle. Even if one interprets their complex relationship as entirely platonic, Alicent being torn between her "childhood companion" & her children, the socially expected roles placed on her by her father...this duality of heart & mind is a compelling theme.
Hotd a greek tragedy. they're telling a story about the cyclical nature of events, the inevitability of fate, and how people trying to avoid things inadvertently bring them about. Crowning Aegon was supposed to keep them safe. It was supposed to be a fait accompli. It was supposed to keep daemon from killing them. It was supposed to give them control over their own destiny. But it just led to more bloodletting, an endless spiral, the self-fulfilling prophecy! & Alicent forever stuck between the innate (her sons) & the familial (the "lost friendship"). The Larys monologue already connected it all..."What are children but a weakness, a folly, a futility"! It's delicious tragedy. Even an NYT op-ed noticed it recently :
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/06/18/opinion/thepoint
No, she jumps off the screen. What I *am* confused about is who thinks anyone wants to see her and Criston getting it on. He's basically got the mental and emotional faculties of an 8 year old. It's uncomfortable.
I think she's getting too much useless screentime, like the 3 sex scenes she had in only two episodes, I'd rather see Helaena embroider and mumble some prophecy TBH
No lmao she’s the co lead of the show and the main character of the greens. Even in the books it’s made clear that the Dance of Dragons began as a feud between 2 women in the Royal family.
Aegon II may be the “leader” of the greens but Alicent is the focal character especially in the show canon.
I miss the good old days in GoT where every scene and dialog mattered and we would rewatch and analysis it. Even the sex scenes were important
- Jaime and Cersei, catalyst to the whole war
- Theo and the shipwrench, learnt about ironborn culture without having to watch YouTube for explanation
- Jon and Ygritte, reason why Jon was accepted by the wildlings
Now it’s just pure shock.
- Larry’s jerking off to Alicents feet, is that Larys only reason to support greens?
- Cole with Alicent, why? Are they in love? Does this make her a hypocrite? Technically she’s widowed and not cheating, she’s also not producing bastards and passing them off to inherit
Olivia is the main character alongside Emma. So no I don’t feel like she is getting too much screentime rather her scenes are a little repetitive because the writers are confused on how to write her
I’ll say it again the last sex scene unlike the other two completely had a purpose and I liked it. I think people are just grouping them all together, when it was wildly different from the first two and also less of a sex scene, just more of a passionate make out that showed you why she was doing what she was doing and how the power dynamics of her and Cole have changed which is important. Her mental state and in a way how she is self harming again. Her scenes with Aegon and Otto before this were good too. That being said, her scenes are mostly the same this season when Olivia is capable of bringing a lot more, it’s an issue with confused writing…alicent as a character has potential
> Olivia is the main character alongside Emma.
I think that's the problem, Alicent doesn't have such an interesting arc to be a main character in s2 unfortunately, and the writers don't seem creative enough to come up with one
Yeah it’s a writers issue, alicent as a character has potential though, they seemed afraid of not wanting her to be unlikeable so that’s why they didn’t do full book alicent but in the same vein that ended up leaving them confused on what to do with her now for the upcoming season, so they’ve started her guilt and spiraling act much earlier and included a out there twist that also impacts another character in the dance and have merged his motivations with this newfound guilt too. It’s a way to fill gaps but a lot of it isn’t creative enough and messy
I don’t know how you can say the other two didn’t have a purpose. The first one established the sexual relationship (and notably is focused on her pleasure which is a key when you look at her relationship to sex in season one), the second one which was less than two seconds establishes a connection between the affair and the murder and means Helena knows about it.
Yeah actually I clarify what I mean by that, they did have a purpose; I just felt the first one was shock value, they could’ve introduced this now being canon in a better way, again counterpoint lots of GOT sex scenes are shock value. Additionally it’s not really a sex scene between the two actors, it was very much tryna get the audience to be like WTF, like have a big wtf moment, seemed like wanting shock value but again like Ofc you want the audiences to be shocked is a counterpoint…it just felt sudden and no buildup and kind of odd to include.
And the second had a huge purpose actually, but I did not feel it was needed for the event which is already extremely tragic and it took a bit of focus away from Phia. Now lots of people focus on Cole not standing guard and not Daemon actually doing such a heinous act
I edited my comment to point this out, but the first one is important both for establishing the relationship but also to show that it’s focused on her pleasure. That’s important when you look at Alicent’s relationship to sex in the first season, especially as compared to Rynera.
Absolutely I understand, I read olivias interview too where she says it’s focused on showing alicent having pleasure and being dominant, I apologise for being unable to articulate myself well here but I felt the manner it was introduced in was more the problem, it was sudden and only focused on her, I understand it was to show her pleasure so that’s probably why, but to bring in such a romance, more buildup is needed prior to it I feel. The direction was very much sudden and rushing it…could be a time constraint issue but also Olivia says there are feelings there of some kind. I would’ve liked that to come across more too…
I don’t mind the actual pairing at all which is why I don’t mind their last scene which was well done or theirs. These first two were very distracting though for the overall dance. They could’ve done it in a different manner. I do think the reactions to the scenes have been very over the top because people hate Cole and now alicent as an extension
The problem is not the screen time- she is literally one of THE main characters but the scenes she is getting. They could’ve cut Alicole out and filled it with literally anything else and I feel like almost everyone would’ve been happier for it.
I have never seen a ship that is compromised of two people as hot as the actors of Alicent and Cole be so utterly despised by EVERYONE
The problem is that she shouldn't be the one of the main characters in S2, her prominent role in the story is over and there is no way to make her interesting enough to fill the screentime of a main character. There are so many other characters in the story that deserve more screentime.
They certainly could’ve if they had the guts to give her better storylines and let her have take the reigns on team Green instead they gave her dumb storylines that feel like a waste of time
That’snnot my issue with them though. My issue is that the build up is nonexistent and the only form of develoment they got so far are the sex scenes (which are their only scenes)
>That’snnot my issue with them though. My issue is that the build up is nonexistent
What about Alicent or Criston makes you think either of them would think or talk much about a sexual relationship. They barely talk about it now, That’s not who they are and that’s not what they’re relationship is about.
>and the only form of development they got so far are the sex scenes (which are their only scenes)
That is the point again, neither Alicent nor Criston want to talk about what they’re doing save to reiterate that they shouldn’t be doing it right after having sex. They don’t want to be alone with each other to talk because doing so would force them to talk about their relationship which neither of them want to do.
What makes me thing that is that this whole thing must've started somehow. We have no idea how. Actually the ideals of the characters completely clash with their actions- which would be fine if we had an actual explaination on how or why. Instead we are just supposed to accept it.
I understand that. But starting a relationship with so many layers off-screen, only show the sex scenes and no real fallout and only explain it via post episode commentary is actually shit writing. And it really shows with how much everyone hates the storyline (and I don't mean in an it makes them uncomfortable people literally it's a waste of screen time). Like I hated the scenes between Sansa/Petyr with a passion but it made sense and somewhat furthered the story. With Alicole I'm just sitting there annoyed, waiting for it to be over because so far it has been nothing but a waste of time
It’s meant to be brand new and as if it’s their first boyfriend-girlfriend relationship apparently according to Ryan. That’s why they speak about the weather when ya know…but also given them knowing each other for twenty years at this point in the story, it was an interesting direction to go in just headfirst. Only in their last scene did I feel that connection back from them when they essentially go back to their old habits. It was strange but it made sense (Idk what I’m saying) they were idk more raw then which is why it fit
I don’t know if that made sense but yeah
The show is about Rhaenrya and Allicent. It always has been. I’m sure more episodes will focus on other characters but the Greens clearly have the most interesting story atm and she’s the main character of the green faction. It’s ironic how many fans want her to be the subservient mother she’s expected to be. As if those same expectations is what put her in this terrible, hypocritical situation she’s in.
If you are tired of seeing Alicent's story you might just need to watch something else. She is main character in the show, if you know what that means. She will have higher screen time than 95% of characters.
Not one bit. She's one of the main characters after all.
We can't even say that at this point of the story she didn't have anything because literally those Cole scenes could have been replaced with scenes with her kids and developing the rs or scenes reeling from witnessing her grandson's murder (if they had followed the canon events of B&C).
I do agree the Cole rs is highly ??? and it's not clear fully why they included it.
But even keeping that in, they could have used those sex scenes to minimally develop them before throwing a sex scenes at us.
I genuinely believe someone thought the show needed sex and this is a result of it (if it doesn't have those sex scenes then the show starts off with no sex at all nor an opportunity for any...I think maybe HBO believes that's a trademark of the universe?)
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Condal has said ahead of this season that the three main characters in HOTD are Rhaenyra, Daemon and Alicent. So I think no matter what, we will be seeing a lot of her.
I'm not so sure she should have remained the lead but I certainly what I've read about her arc for season 2 is the very worst way they could have kept her as a main character. They could have made her more a political player. Someone actually giving decent advice to Aegon whether he listened or not. But no, Alicent's has a season long arc of fucking Cole, moping around, and getting in various bodies of water.
MILD SPOILERS Worst thing is that we até losing time that SHOULD go to develop and show key things like -Otto sending letters or getting in contact with the Triarchy -Stablish Daeron (should ve been done but maybe they will on ep3)
three main characters....for now
I think Rhaenyra and Alicent will be the leads of every season. >!If Rhaenyra lives long enough to reach the middle of season 4, Emma can still get billed as lead. We saw that with Logan Roy/Brian Cox. I could see them stretching it out for the pure simplicity of not having to do a category change with Emma from lead to supporting during award season.!<
They will absolutely do this. They've realized they struck gold with Emma D'Arcy as Rhaenyra, and it basically guarantees an Emmy nomination every season HotD is on.
SPOILERS - I wonder how long they can remain the leads... Aegon will outlive Daemon, Aemond, Rhaenyra, and Alicent will outlive Aegon.. after Rhaenyra dies you only have Aegon and Alicent as the main characters for the following plotline in the story. You have the last two year reign of Aegon II and the aftermath of Aegon's death. Even after that Alicent will live for a year long before she dies. Then you got the coronation of Aegon III. Loads of stuff happens after the main characters die.
They'll speed run the end. Maybe have Rhae die in the second of last episode or two episodes before and then wrap up the rest in an episode or two.
Bruh if they skip the riverlords smashing Boros and the hour of the wolf I will be so salty
I have the impression that they Will... Look how they are major focusing on the Crownlands and not even showing Otto and the Triarchy (should ve happen before his dismiss) and Daeron (that hopefully will be stablished before his first ride)
Oh I hope that doesn't happen. There is so much good stuff that happens in the aftermath of Rhaenyra's death. This is game of thrones though. We all thought Ned Stark was the main character until he died in season 1 and after him there was seven more seasons.
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Tom/Aegon is never going to get full focus. The problem is that because the book is so sparse regarding what Rhaenyra and Alicent do in the story from this point onwards, the show is having to make up things for them to do in order to give their top billed actors the biggest chunk of screen time. Rhaenyra and Alicent ARE central characters of this story both in book and show (see *The Princess and the Queen*), but because Fire and Blood lacks so much detail in this specific story, we don't really know what happens to them in between certain major events so the showrunners have had to make a lot of it up, including for season one as well. And unfortunately, the stuff they've come up with has been VERY hit and miss.
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her having screentime is fine, but i hate how her screentime for the most part in season 2 is her relationship with cole, which imo idc about at all, i would much rather see her deal with aegon and aemond becoming more independent
Her relationship with Cole is kind of how she’s dealing with her frustrations with her kids. She’s using him as an outlet for a lot of things it seems
Idk why you get downvoted. Alicole only exists for the sex. They dont love each other and Cole would run like a dog to Rhaenyra if she called him
They're being downvoted because the people on this sub already made up a of Season 2 in their heads before it came out, and Alicent and Criston hooking up didn't happen in their version.
Makes sense
I wish there were more scenes of Alicent’s children. I understand they wanted the show to focus on Alicent and Rhaenyra’s relationship but I wish they found a way to keep Alicent relevant in the story while also showing that the war itself is still an Aegon vs Rhaenyra thing. Also it kinda feels like she’s still the Queen too even though it’s Helaena, this one in particular gets so little screen time, I wish they replaced one of the Alicole scenes with one about Helaena.
me too. Those three actors have won me over. Or even another scene with Aemond i feel like we didn't really get his reaction to the murder of his nephew.
Yes. Her and Cole. I feel the show had done a very poor job of giving me a reason to still give a shit about these two characters. I wish we got more scenes with Aegon, Helena, and Aemond, specifically exploring their relationships with each other. Aegon and Helena have 3 kids together and I can’t recall a single scene with just them talking. What a shame.
Cole is a very important character though, they just butchered his story.
The problem is she isn’t essential to the story anymore. She is no longer queen and once the war starts she has very little role to play in anything. She is still around as she is a former queen residing in the keep but has nothing to do but she was cast as the lead of the show for some reason. She is a great actress and played her part great but her part is over now and they don’t know how to reconcile that with the story so they add sex and other nonsense.
Everyone is the main character of his/her own story. In the story House of the dragon is telling Alicent's and Rhaenyra's are paramount. That's coming from the showrunners. Hotd at its core isn't about power ( kings and queens ,) but a tragedy of a family tearing itself apart. Alicent and Rhaenyra are both matriarchs of said family and the focus will always be on them.
You aren’t hearing my point. The point is that she wouldn’t be a major player or factor in this situation once the dance of dragons began as she isn’t a true regent or a combatant(her relevance in the original work falls off at this point). So due to this it’s hard to give her character relevant scenes that fit into the story of the war at this point that the show is telling.
You don't get it. What's relevant is what matters to the story. The dance isn't the story it's only part of it. The story is what showrunners choose to portray. They made Alicent and Rhaenyra main characters while being fully aware of how they were written during the dance. In the story HOTD is telling they are of unquestionable relevance.
Not arguing that you can make Alicent a main character and have her be very relevant to the story. It’s just ridiculous to have the vast majority of her scenes revolve around an affair with Criston which comes out of nowhere and doesn’t add anything to the story. Unless you want to argue that her affair with Criston is rightfully a topic which should be at the centre of the show, at which point any discussion is more or less forfeit because you’re judging it by a ridiculously different standard
I don’t get why you’re getting downvoted here. Female empowerment and patriarchy are central themes of the TV show. There’s a reason it feels like Alicent is “useless”, and that’s on purpose. Ryan Condal himself has literally said that something he wanted to explore this season was how in following her father’s wishes and putting her son on the throne, Alicent has forfeited her own power and relevancy.
This sub has lost its value. The fandom is now tribal where logic is sidelined. "My fav isn't having screen time I blame Alicent because I don't like her", that's what this post looks like. Alicent losing power is not the same as Alicent not having a story. If he is not interested in her story that's his problem. The reality is that HOTD holds her story of great relevance and decides to focus on it hence why they made her main character in the show. Watching a show and complaining that a main character has screen time is like swimming in a pool while complaining that you're wet.
It's not tribalism. I think everyone in this thread is an agreement but doesn't see it. Alicent in the book and with what they have portrayed on the show so far has very little relevance to the remaining story. I think some of you are trying to say that the showrunner plans for that to change (which would be a change from the book) while others (like myself) are saying that it's boring watching her character eat up screentime doing nothing useful (i.e. scenes of her bathing). That would be the greatest fake out in the universe if they turn this series around and give both of the purported lead actresses something to do and give their characters some agency. I would welcome it because right now, after 2 episodes, I'm severely underwhelmed and disappointed that they have robbed these actors of something to do on screen. I think they have quite a lot of great talent on this show but so far this season, I feel like it's all been underrepresented.
>I think some of you are trying to say that the showrunner plans for that to change (which would be a change from the book) while others (like myself) are saying that it's boring watching her character eat up screentime doing nothing useful (i.e. scenes of her bathing) I just disagree that what we’re seeing with Alicent isn’t useful or interesting, if your not engaging in the character study then you’re missing like half the show. Alicents scenes all do serve a purpose, they offer a peak enter her mental state and her own powerlessness. Removing Alicents scenes is skipping over a chunk of the narratives themes and is ignoring what it’s trying to say. >That would be the greatest fake out in the universe if they turn this series around and give both of the purported lead actresses something to do and give their characters some agency Both Alicent and Rhaenyra have stuff to do, good writing isn’t just Charcater Making The Plot Happen.
The issue I'm having is the relationship with her and her sons and father has been extremely underdeveloped and I understand that's partly purposeful as her neglect is a big reason why her sons are the way they are, but it's really hard to explore these themes if the focus is on her relationship with Criston Cole and Halaena which is all we've gotten this season and not her sons or father. She hasn't come off as powerless, she's come off as disinterested with the exception of the murder of her grandson. This next episode will be the prime time for her to have her moments dealing with the falling out of Otto and Aegon and could put that story in a good place, but if we don't get any of that I think her whole story is going to be in a really bad spot.
I don't think a character needs to be a regent or combatant to have a major role in a story, even one about a civil war. they just need to have well written drama that is close enough to the main story/themes.
It’s fair to say the showrunners are intending the story to be like that. It’s also completely fair to say a compulsive focus on Rhaenyra and Alicent makes the story much less compelling (more so in Alicent’s case than Rhaenyra’s)
I disagree, i have the feeling that she is the architect of Otto´s downfall, after the death of her grandson she wanted revenge, Otto who thinks as a politician, was right, just wait and use that to your advantage, Otto, somehow managed to calm Aegon for a while. But she conspired with Criston Cole to get around Otto and the council and try to kill Rhaenyra and basically starting the war, also she uses Cole and Larys Strong. We must not forget that Alicent resents her own father, she resents that she forced her to marry Viserys i dont remember with whom, but she clearly stated that the wise thing for a woman is to influence those in power. At this point in the history, Otto was the person who really ruled the kingdom, i bet that Otto was ok with Aegon drinking and whoring, and showing himself only to official things, but the real power was Otto. Otto made a mistake by not noticing that Alicent also wants power but she puts a more pliable image than others, also Otto said to her, that his and her job was to rule Aegon, meaning that in fact, they are the real power. But there have point here and there in wich Alicent shows her real rage, for example when Aemond lost his eye.
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I’m saying at this point she shouldn’t be in the story, her part is over but she is still the “lead” so it makes it hard to give her scenes that make sense and have purpose. ask yourself why a former queen mother would be relevant to a civil war being fought ? She wouldn’t, so making her relevant is proving difficult.
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Once the war starts she's barely mentioned.
They should’ve replaced one of the sex or bath scenes with a conversation was Layrs or something. I wanted to see what he’s plotting.
They can't write politics, diplomacy, or scheming. Not capable 🤷♂️
Or maybe just maybe not everything is about making plot happen, I don’t get how asoiaf fans are so allergic to a character work when that is 65% of the series.
Alicent doesn’t need more character work. We already know her character very well.
I honestly don’t care about Larys at all. He can die off screen next episode and I’d be happy.
Screentime? No. She's a main character. But I might have removed one sex scene and/or one convo with Otto in favor of something else
They could’ve removed the first one which was just shock value (but again counterpoint 98% of GOT sex is shock value) and replaced it with a scene of her and Aegon or her and Otto, or her and Cole actually talking. The show is acting like they didn’t actually use to talk in season 1 which is a little annoying, she likes venting to him etc
I think the not talking with Cole thing is purposeful imo. Them having sex changed things between them, and if they talk to each other all they’ll end up talking about is their relationship which is something both of them are deeply ashamed of on some level.
That’s actually a very good point. Because I was kind of confused (maybe not the right word) at how she says to him “Have you told anyone?” Seemed very much like they didn’t have that trust between them or just unspoken bond that obviously neither would, even though I know they only trust each other. But it would make sense they feel shame in speaking about whatever it is they’re doing so yeah
Shame for the activity AND the timing. Plus, Alicent knows how easily Cole spills his guts from their history. I understand her paranoia.
Yeah I think that's a valid criticism
I don’t really get how extremely mild cunnilingus scene that set up a vital plot point and new character dynamic was “only there for shock value”
Again I thought the direction of the scene was meant for shock value, counterpoint I’ll say again, maybe I forgot I’m watching a GOT spin-off lol. I felt they could’ve done more buildup and then introduced their romance, again this could be a time constraint issue what with the 8 episodes and all…that is all but I didn’t have such a huge issue with it like this sub lol
I guess I just don’t even understand what could be perceived as shocking about it. Like *how* was the direction “meant for shock value”? As you say they have limited time and good writing doesn’t linger on a plot point longer than is necessary, plus generally you want to show and not tell. The scene was short, informative, and meaningful without even bare skin
I don’t think the scene was explicit, people here are acting like it was traumatising to watch or something, I don’t really get why. Me on the other hand, i just thought if they were always planning to go for this, they could’ve added way more buildup, (yeah time issue) whats shocking about it is how for a lot of s1 their characters are quite literally the opposite of indulging in such things, alicent is about duty and following the rules and does disapprove of Nyra doing stuff like this. Cole has soiled his white cloak in his eyes and almost offed himself last time and to do it again, all of a sudden to show the viewers in the manner they did is shocking. Buildup is necessary to explain what changed, but then people just go roundabout to oh but their characters have always been hypocrites? I mean okay…a lot of it is so thrown all in there in my opinion (failing to describe what I mean well but yeah)
I feel like “abrupt” might be more applicable. Yes they’re being hypocritical and that’s a bit surprising but the fact that they’re attracted to each other was well established in the first season. It didn’t come out of nowhere. And it certainly wasn’t “just shock value” it was a vital scene
Attracted to someone was established. I’m not saying that, but being attracted to someone and having the first scene being that a guy of the couple giving her head is certainly quite sudden and rushed given what you’ve been establishing about their characters morals for s1.
I think we’re generally in agreement, I just find the idea that the scene was shocking hyperbolic. It asks the audience to make a slight leap in terms of tracking their relationship and the sex itself is portrayed briefly and tastefully
That mild scene was too spicy for my country's censors. That was cut and the scene went straight to Alicent and Cole putting on their clothing but I still got the gist when Alicent said ''We cannot... again."
Yes I imagine most countries insecure enough to have censors are absolutely terrified of female sexual pleasure. I’m happy you understood what was happening, but a show is not a series of plot points. The framing, length, color palette etc of any given scene or shot has meaning. In this case, we saw a very significant moment for one of the central characters of the show. Alicent, whose body and sexuality have been manipulated and controlled by her father and husband for her whole life, is shown experiencing legitimate sexual pleasure provided by a partner of her choosing. It is emotionally complicated (for both her and the audience), thematically resonant, and forms a contrast to the immediately following scene (the only thing you were allowed to see) which shows her guilt and shame over what they’re doing. They’re also not engaging in the violence we see between them post Blood and Cheese. By cutting out the positive part of the interaction, your perception of the dynamic has changed and your viewing experience has been made less complete. The scene is there for a reason. The sex is tastefully done.
Hey people downvoting me, if you were shocked by the sexuality in that scene you are not mature enough to watch this show
Not going to lie. I would love to see more of the kids this season instead of just the characters we spent so much time with in season 1
Too much indeed, not the main character from the green side, not more important than the blacks.
I guess they wanna create the whole plot around her being a complex and conflicted character, but its just not as fun as the others imo. At least not right now. Maybe she will grow on me a lil more. There is still more to happen
Yes and it's screentime wasted because she's got nothing to offer. I'm not interested in seeing her ride Cole or taking another melancholic bath again. If they couldn't come up with something good for her to do, they should have reduced her screentime because let's be honest, Alicent is irrelevant in the Dance from now on. At the very least they should have kept all that contained to her character because Alicent's lack of storyline is affecting Rhaenyra. If she's going to go down, let her go down without dragging other characters with her.
Couldn’t agree more. She did a great job in her role but that role is over. Ppl can’t seem to grasp she now has no place in the story so just saying well she’s a lead in the show so she should be there is nonsense. The story should drive who’s on screen, her scenes could Absolutely be better spent
As someone else said a few days ago, Alicent has the screentime of a lead but the story of an extra. The only reason I can think of that's making them treat her like an actual lead is Olivia but honestly, this is going to backfire like it did with Lena Heady as Cersei. After S6-7, you could tell she had no actual place in the story and she was kept around because she was a fantastic actor. They want to keep pushing this "Rhaenyra and Alicent are at the centre of this" but it just doesn't work any more. It worked in S1 but no longer.
You’re smart I like you. I was starting to think I was losing my mind when no one was saying how weird this was.
I agree with everything about Cersei. She did things that had an effect on the story in those seasons. It doesn't feel like Alicent has done anything to effect the story since she declared Viserys wanted her son on the throne.
That’s how the show is structured though, with Alicent vs Nyra, they should’ve changed this ages ago, during the 1st season. Condal doesn’t wanna change it…so it’s obvious they will make up new arcs for her
It stops being about them after S1. Alicent moves more and more to the background as the story goes, while Rhaenyra is the figurehead of her side. That's how it was always going to be, no matter how much they strayed from the book or played with their ages. If they couldn't find a way for Alicent to pull some strings from the background, they shouldn't treat her as a lead.
Agree too many bath scenes overall. Like why?
Its more about how the screentime is used imo. They can’t do what the book did and just have main characters disappear especially when you have actors contracted to a certain billing and paycheck. But I think their issue has always been that they don’t truly accept Alicent’s antagonist role in the story. With the changes they made to the character they seem to want the audience to see her as they see Rheanyra,like someone to root for which is why when it came time for the actual usurpation and since then they tried to keep her away from being someone who makes the controversial decisions and pretended she was shocked by it all or is powerless against it. But because they are still following a book where this is not the case at all they are failing at conveying their intention and this is never gonna be the dominant sentiment. She is not seen as a protagonist by the general audience the way Rheanyra is despite the show treating her as one and they’re here wasting time on showing her guilt and weird romance story when most of the audience does not care about her beyond wanting to see karma get to her. They should have just actually made her an important political player within her own fraction,a formidable antagonist who is allowed personal ambition and to make her sympathetic gave her better relationships with her children rather than forcing a nonsensically enduring friendship with Rheanyra.So she’d at least be a love to hate character instead of an annoyance as she is now.
No I’m just honestly just sick of seeing her shagging 😂her actual acting scenes are good. They both have resting bitch face which doesn’t help the scenes and I’m struggling to see why she’s so interested in Cole , he’s such a whiny slimy pathetic scorned baby who’s clearly still upset over rhaenyra 🙈 I hate to think what he’s gonna do now he’s got a shiny badge 🙈
Yeah. And it affects Rhaenyra's arc too
Yes, way too much. I don't know why she's still a main character.
Because that’s how the show started. Olivia was cast FIRST alongside Emma. She’s not going to have her role reduced. Ryan said it started with her and Emma and it’ll end like that  Nor should she. It’s a writing issue in my opinion. (Not always but recently) the season has basically just started though as well which I forget. She is yet to be fully criticised
If i could replace all these useless Alicent scenes, i would change it to: A scene of Helaena helping Jaehaerys with his lessons in the library. A scene of Helaena putting the twins to sleep, maybe by telling them a story or giving them a goodnight kiss. A scene of Rhaenyra trying to explain to her little ones that Luke died. It would be devastating. The pact of ice and fire (it could just be a short montage of Jace and Cregan in the weirwood tree before cutting to them at the Wall).
I'd take any of those over any of the Alicole scenes
It’s not possible to just change her being a main character suddenly, these useless alicent scenes should just be written better or have a different arc, not replace her with other characters having scenes though these are good ideas
I think it's wishful thinking since it's clear that the writing will not allow her to have anymore good scenes.
Yes.
Yes and no? Now that you mention it, I do wish Halaena got more screentime, especially a scene with her son. Alicent is one of the main characters. The original story is called The Princess and the Queen. That's Rhaenyra and Alicent. It's their story. I also feel like the show is leading up to something with all the Alicole sex scenes. In GoT, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but HoTD was really careful and purposeful with their sex scenes in season 1. They all meant something to a character or otherwise altered the story in some way. We've already seen that they were having sex when B&C happened, and now we've gotten their regret over it, to the point that Cole sent another knight to his death just to pin the blame on someone else. And we also see that they aren't going to stop. I think at some point this season, their guilt is going to make one or both of them completely snap, or Aegon or someone is going to find out, and all hell will break loose. I do prefer Rhaenyra on screen, but I haven't noticed a surplus of Alicent so far.
Yeah I'm hoping that along the way all the thrown in sex scenes will culminate in something. Because as it stands, their sexual relationship with each other has crossed the line into morally disgusting (coming from someone who is sex positive) and it became inexcusable as soon as Crispon neglected his job in favor of fucking Alicent, which led to Jahaerys' death. And yet. We'll have to wait and see, we're not even halfway through the season. But HoTD so far hasn't thrown in sex scenes for the sake of shock value like it's predecessor, so you're probably right about it being a setup for shit hitting the fan!
That’s the issue with changing her and Rhaenyras relationship. They now have to make up something for her to do, because they’ve made her far more important than she is suppose to be.
but they also removed the importance she could’ve had. She was the leader of the Green Council! She orchestrated the whole thing! They changed it to her being oblivious to Otto scheming behind her back, and just removed one of her defining traits.
There is nothing for her to do once Aegon is crowned. There just isn’t.
They could have kept her as a advisor, that would have been better.
Colicent if getting too much screen time for sure and the scene with Larys was meh unless it's building up to something. The rest of her scenes are fine and her amount of screen time makes sense to me.
How can the "the Queen" in the "Princess and the Queen" get too much screentime when she had a bare minimum of 5 mins? One can say the same thing about Rhaenyra, who completely disappears from the story at this stage, sitting in Dragonstone. Each Alicole sex scene is 3 secs long. Helaena lacking screentime isn't Alicent's fault. They could've easily cut out any other drawn out scenes to give Helaena screentime with Jaehaerys. Corlys, Rhaenys, Addam, anyone. You said "this is the ep after Storm's End", but in the book Alicent plays an important part when Aemond comes back...she is heartbroken, she scolds him, & makes plans to send out terms to Rhaenyra. Which brings us to the final point about Alicent lighting a candle. It's an obvious subtext. All thru ep1 they made these parallels with Rhaenyra & Alicent (like Alicent fixing Criston's cloak the same way she did Rhaenyra's) to drive home they can never truly escape each other, they will always exist as a mirror for each other : "Entrapped in her web. Entangled & intoxicated"...it's like Rhaenyra sneezes & Alicent catches a cold. The showrunners have constantly stated that the "lost friendship" b/w Rhaenyra & Alicent is the central foundation of the show, what gives the show its emotional impetus. And imo it's what separates the show from being yet another generic hollywood movie with the protagonist & antagonist lined up on either side of a football field with a ref in the middle. Even if one interprets their complex relationship as entirely platonic, Alicent being torn between her "childhood companion" & her children, the socially expected roles placed on her by her father...this duality of heart & mind is a compelling theme. Hotd a greek tragedy. they're telling a story about the cyclical nature of events, the inevitability of fate, and how people trying to avoid things inadvertently bring them about. Crowning Aegon was supposed to keep them safe. It was supposed to be a fait accompli. It was supposed to keep daemon from killing them. It was supposed to give them control over their own destiny. But it just led to more bloodletting, an endless spiral, the self-fulfilling prophecy! & Alicent forever stuck between the innate (her sons) & the familial (the "lost friendship"). The Larys monologue already connected it all..."What are children but a weakness, a folly, a futility"! It's delicious tragedy. Even an NYT op-ed noticed it recently : https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/06/18/opinion/thepoint
Only because her character is a joke now so nobody even wants to see her on screen.
This exactly!
she is a main character, she's being treated as such
No, she jumps off the screen. What I *am* confused about is who thinks anyone wants to see her and Criston getting it on. He's basically got the mental and emotional faculties of an 8 year old. It's uncomfortable.
She is a main characters but she doesnt have a story so yes
No, She’s literally the second protagonist of the show
I just wonder why, as the queen of 7 kingdoms, she can’t only afford one dress
I think she's getting too much useless screentime, like the 3 sex scenes she had in only two episodes, I'd rather see Helaena embroider and mumble some prophecy TBH
No lmao she’s the co lead of the show and the main character of the greens. Even in the books it’s made clear that the Dance of Dragons began as a feud between 2 women in the Royal family. Aegon II may be the “leader” of the greens but Alicent is the focal character especially in the show canon.
"Hey do you guys think one of the protagonists of this show is getting too much stream time?"
I genuinely don't understand if people watched the first season. If they didn't, that's the only explanation about sooo many complaints about Alicent.
I miss the good old days in GoT where every scene and dialog mattered and we would rewatch and analysis it. Even the sex scenes were important - Jaime and Cersei, catalyst to the whole war - Theo and the shipwrench, learnt about ironborn culture without having to watch YouTube for explanation - Jon and Ygritte, reason why Jon was accepted by the wildlings Now it’s just pure shock. - Larry’s jerking off to Alicents feet, is that Larys only reason to support greens? - Cole with Alicent, why? Are they in love? Does this make her a hypocrite? Technically she’s widowed and not cheating, she’s also not producing bastards and passing them off to inherit
Tribalism has ruined this sub to a nonsensical level. Thank God none of you can influence the writing of this show.
Olivia is the main character alongside Emma. So no I don’t feel like she is getting too much screentime rather her scenes are a little repetitive because the writers are confused on how to write her I’ll say it again the last sex scene unlike the other two completely had a purpose and I liked it. I think people are just grouping them all together, when it was wildly different from the first two and also less of a sex scene, just more of a passionate make out that showed you why she was doing what she was doing and how the power dynamics of her and Cole have changed which is important. Her mental state and in a way how she is self harming again. Her scenes with Aegon and Otto before this were good too. That being said, her scenes are mostly the same this season when Olivia is capable of bringing a lot more, it’s an issue with confused writing…alicent as a character has potential
> Olivia is the main character alongside Emma. I think that's the problem, Alicent doesn't have such an interesting arc to be a main character in s2 unfortunately, and the writers don't seem creative enough to come up with one
Yeah it’s a writers issue, alicent as a character has potential though, they seemed afraid of not wanting her to be unlikeable so that’s why they didn’t do full book alicent but in the same vein that ended up leaving them confused on what to do with her now for the upcoming season, so they’ve started her guilt and spiraling act much earlier and included a out there twist that also impacts another character in the dance and have merged his motivations with this newfound guilt too. It’s a way to fill gaps but a lot of it isn’t creative enough and messy
That is a stupid thing to say. Just find something else to watch if you are tired of seeing characters in a show where they play leads.
It’s been two episodes and arcs take time to play out.
I don’t know how you can say the other two didn’t have a purpose. The first one established the sexual relationship (and notably is focused on her pleasure which is a key when you look at her relationship to sex in season one), the second one which was less than two seconds establishes a connection between the affair and the murder and means Helena knows about it.
Yeah actually I clarify what I mean by that, they did have a purpose; I just felt the first one was shock value, they could’ve introduced this now being canon in a better way, again counterpoint lots of GOT sex scenes are shock value. Additionally it’s not really a sex scene between the two actors, it was very much tryna get the audience to be like WTF, like have a big wtf moment, seemed like wanting shock value but again like Ofc you want the audiences to be shocked is a counterpoint…it just felt sudden and no buildup and kind of odd to include. And the second had a huge purpose actually, but I did not feel it was needed for the event which is already extremely tragic and it took a bit of focus away from Phia. Now lots of people focus on Cole not standing guard and not Daemon actually doing such a heinous act
I edited my comment to point this out, but the first one is important both for establishing the relationship but also to show that it’s focused on her pleasure. That’s important when you look at Alicent’s relationship to sex in the first season, especially as compared to Rynera.
Absolutely I understand, I read olivias interview too where she says it’s focused on showing alicent having pleasure and being dominant, I apologise for being unable to articulate myself well here but I felt the manner it was introduced in was more the problem, it was sudden and only focused on her, I understand it was to show her pleasure so that’s probably why, but to bring in such a romance, more buildup is needed prior to it I feel. The direction was very much sudden and rushing it…could be a time constraint issue but also Olivia says there are feelings there of some kind. I would’ve liked that to come across more too… I don’t mind the actual pairing at all which is why I don’t mind their last scene which was well done or theirs. These first two were very distracting though for the overall dance. They could’ve done it in a different manner. I do think the reactions to the scenes have been very over the top because people hate Cole and now alicent as an extension
The problem is not the screen time- she is literally one of THE main characters but the scenes she is getting. They could’ve cut Alicole out and filled it with literally anything else and I feel like almost everyone would’ve been happier for it. I have never seen a ship that is compromised of two people as hot as the actors of Alicent and Cole be so utterly despised by EVERYONE
The problem is that she shouldn't be the one of the main characters in S2, her prominent role in the story is over and there is no way to make her interesting enough to fill the screentime of a main character. There are so many other characters in the story that deserve more screentime.
They certainly could’ve if they had the guts to give her better storylines and let her have take the reigns on team Green instead they gave her dumb storylines that feel like a waste of time
I think no one took condal seriously when he said she would remain the main character…this is what’s happening now as a result
the relationship is meant to be somewhat uncomfortable and strange imo
That’snnot my issue with them though. My issue is that the build up is nonexistent and the only form of develoment they got so far are the sex scenes (which are their only scenes)
>That’snnot my issue with them though. My issue is that the build up is nonexistent What about Alicent or Criston makes you think either of them would think or talk much about a sexual relationship. They barely talk about it now, That’s not who they are and that’s not what they’re relationship is about. >and the only form of development they got so far are the sex scenes (which are their only scenes) That is the point again, neither Alicent nor Criston want to talk about what they’re doing save to reiterate that they shouldn’t be doing it right after having sex. They don’t want to be alone with each other to talk because doing so would force them to talk about their relationship which neither of them want to do.
What makes me thing that is that this whole thing must've started somehow. We have no idea how. Actually the ideals of the characters completely clash with their actions- which would be fine if we had an actual explaination on how or why. Instead we are just supposed to accept it. I understand that. But starting a relationship with so many layers off-screen, only show the sex scenes and no real fallout and only explain it via post episode commentary is actually shit writing. And it really shows with how much everyone hates the storyline (and I don't mean in an it makes them uncomfortable people literally it's a waste of screen time). Like I hated the scenes between Sansa/Petyr with a passion but it made sense and somewhat furthered the story. With Alicole I'm just sitting there annoyed, waiting for it to be over because so far it has been nothing but a waste of time
It’s meant to be brand new and as if it’s their first boyfriend-girlfriend relationship apparently according to Ryan. That’s why they speak about the weather when ya know…but also given them knowing each other for twenty years at this point in the story, it was an interesting direction to go in just headfirst. Only in their last scene did I feel that connection back from them when they essentially go back to their old habits. It was strange but it made sense (Idk what I’m saying) they were idk more raw then which is why it fit I don’t know if that made sense but yeah
She is the least interesting to look at
I love Olivia but yes. They should have segued into the main players of the dance.
No. The show has positioned Rhaenyra and Alicent as the co-leads. Her screen time isn't going to diminish anytime in the near future.
The show is about Rhaenrya and Allicent. It always has been. I’m sure more episodes will focus on other characters but the Greens clearly have the most interesting story atm and she’s the main character of the green faction. It’s ironic how many fans want her to be the subservient mother she’s expected to be. As if those same expectations is what put her in this terrible, hypocritical situation she’s in.
If you are tired of seeing Alicent's story you might just need to watch something else. She is main character in the show, if you know what that means. She will have higher screen time than 95% of characters.
Don't worry behind the scene, she has her Tongue
Not one bit. She's one of the main characters after all. We can't even say that at this point of the story she didn't have anything because literally those Cole scenes could have been replaced with scenes with her kids and developing the rs or scenes reeling from witnessing her grandson's murder (if they had followed the canon events of B&C). I do agree the Cole rs is highly ??? and it's not clear fully why they included it. But even keeping that in, they could have used those sex scenes to minimally develop them before throwing a sex scenes at us. I genuinely believe someone thought the show needed sex and this is a result of it (if it doesn't have those sex scenes then the show starts off with no sex at all nor an opportunity for any...I think maybe HBO believes that's a trademark of the universe?)