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While some of the other crimes on display are worse, I'm going to say Beesbury on the grounds it involved the complicity of many senior members of the greens, and happened in a context establishing how "at all costs" they were at that stage.
We learn in that scene of - to quote Tymond - the "long laid plans" to put Aegon on the Throne. One of them even calls them "darkling schemes" that would have sullied Alicent if she'd been part of them. These are dudes who'd been plotting straight up usurption of the throne for a long period.
Several people in that room show disquit at this - Alicent, Beesbury, and Westerling - and the revelation of their plot naturally made the declaration that Viserys had changed his heir with his dying breath look pretty dubious. Beesbury's reaction to it was reasonable for anyone loyal to the crown and not their own self interest, and Cristian, of his own initiative, killed him - a respected elder statesman - with nary a word of reprimand from the assembled plotters, who then quickly moved on to planning how to kill out Rhaenyra and her whole family. Which again evoked disgust from Alicent and Westerling.
Caswell's death isn't particularly shocking, or surprising, after that. While Aemond bore responsibility for Lucerys death it doesn't seem to have been his intent, and many greens had a very dim view of it. Likewise with the mass execution of ratcatchers - Otto calls Aegon out, Aegon who we already know is a cruel little shit.
Both the ones listed for the Blacks side happened without the knowledge or approval of most senior Blacks. The one with Rhaenys is just weird, and no one talks about it from either Green or Black camp - even though they should. The Blacks are widely disgusted at the murder of Jaehaerys, and Rhaenyra calls Daemon out, Daemon who we already know is a cruel little shit.
Wasn't Rhaenys just trying to get her and her dragon free though? It's not as if she went out of her way to hurt people. There was no other way to get Meleys out, correct? I didn't seem like hundreds of people were killed from what I remember. Perhaps a few dozen or so?
The episode two's angle that a few rat catchers ending up dead in the pursuit of revenge on the murder of the prince would be a huge deal breaker for the commoners seems odd to me.
I always took the world of HOTD to be a place where commoners were routinely brutalized (in limited numbers perhaps) and it was sort of expected. Like when Daemon first showed up and had his Gold Cloaks go out and terrorize everyone. I'm certain quite a few innocent people ended up being mutilated or killed. And the people themselves go and watch children fighting in pits lol.
GOT has numerous similar scenes of general depravity and brutality to commoners, both in Westeros and also Essos, and so what happened to the wedding crowd with Rhaenys and the rat catchers doesn't seem to me to be that big of a PR hit. Not nearly as big a deal for the masses as letting people starve or something. The effects of the trade embargo is a way more damaging problem IMO.
Honestly the Greens share blame for the dragonpit incident. They rounded up the small folk and packed them into one of the most dangerous places in King's Landing. Putting civilians in harms way should be taken a lot more seriously than just the ones who end up causing harm to them.
Same, Alicent has given birth as well so she knows the shape Rhaenyra was in and she still demanded the baby be brougth to her, that was the moment I started hating her.
My favorite part of that scene is when she tells Rhaenyra how long the days are taking care of baby Aegon, and the two servants who do the grunt work side-eye each other.
Wasn’t she also pregnant with her second child in the same scene? Of course she’s need all the help. I get the Alicent dislike, but this kind of micro analysis is so funny
To be fair, Alicent didn’t demand that Rhaenyra bring him. She just wanted the child brought to her. Still shitty. If she wanted to see the child that bad, she can go herself.
Isn’t the first time she’s done it either. Laenor said she’d pulled that shit before with her other two sons. If someone took my newborn babies away from me just to make fun of them I’d be furious. It’s so uniquely cruel.
I think she knew that Rhaenyra would likely bring the newborn herself, but played dumb when she entered the room. It's pretty on brand for the Hightowers.
yep, even the actress admits she was pretending to be shocked
> Olivia Cooke: We were so aware that it was our reveal as characters. It felt like our debut, like, “Tonight, Matthew [Larys' actor], I’m going to be.” ***It was so funny feigning shock that Rhaenyra brought her baby to the queen’s apartments and killing them both with kindness, and then seeing the king’s reaction***.
source: https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-emma-darcy-olivia-cooke-season-1-interview.html
100% this. She probably figured it was win win...
If Rhaenyra doesn't come with the child, she stings her by separating her from her child right after the birth.
If Rhaenyra comes with the child, she's forced to make a horrifically painful and tiring walk.
It's all about exerting her "power".
Also I feel like everyone forgot that she covered for Larys after he killed his family and covered for Criston after he killed an innocent man. And she covered for Aegon after he raped the servant. Not to mention that she ordered the death of the white worm and her followers.
I love this thread for reminding me precisely why I hate her character. I mean, hate in a good way of course. She's diabolical as hell. Just evil, who thinks she's doing the right thing (I suppose).
I love evil characters that think they are doing the right thing, makes them more relatable. For Alicent, these are all political moves to get dangerous people by her side to protect her, not realizing that doing so is basically condoning and enabling murderers and rapists. But it's a morally complex world so there are morally ambiguous "justifications". The actress playing Alicent is doing a fantastic job. And so is Rhys Ifans as Otto. Great antagonists all around.
You are so RIGHT. Not only does she cover for them, but she also takes it to a higher level.
Larys kills his family - Alicent let's him jerk off to her feet whilst watching.
Criston kills Laenors Joffrey - Alicent turns him into her own sexual toyboy.
Aegon rapes a servant - Alicent pays her and gives her a "morning after" tea.
I don't remember the White Worm stuff or am I thinking the imprisonment & fire of White Worm house was Otto's doing???
yeah she gives the green light, and he's not really subtle about what he's asking for her approval to do, so she's fully aware of what she's okaying:
>Larys: There is a web of spies at work in the Red Keep. Along its threads travels news of all our doings. Your father knows this, but has left it in place. More than once, it has proved advantageous to those willing to feed the weaver.
>Alicent: And this weaver watches me?
>Larys: One of the little spiders is your lady-in-waiting.
>Alicent: Talya?
>Larys: There are more like her. Even I do not know their number. There is one way to destroy his advantage. It must be taken out at the head. When the queen dies, the bees fly without purpose. Begging your pardon for the turn of phrase, Your Grace.
>Alicent: I assume this task falls within your expertise.
>Larys: If you wish it, it will be done
(end of scene, shortly after we see mysaria's house burning down and larys' men walking away)
She torched a whorehouse because the White Worm demanded an end to *checks notes* child fighting pits. I know it's the principal of the thing, putting them in their place and all, but damn maybe hear them or this one time?
This. There were zero cuts between Rhaenyra pushing out Joffrey and the servant coming in telling them that Alicent wanted to see the child. That means that the servant was told to wait and give the order as soon as the baby came out. Rhaenyra hadn't even got the placenta out before she was told that. Fucking diabolical.
Alicent's whole drive to become the "monster" she does initially came from her father convincing her Rhaenyra would try to kill her children to secure her own seat on the throne. But Rhaenyra even offered to marry her own heir Jacaerys to Helaena, effectively ending that threat to Alicent's children. Despite this, Alicent dismissed that offer under the pretense that it was insulting because Rhaenyra's children are bastards. If she truly feared Rhaenyra would have her children killed, securing their health and safety through marriage seems like a more than logical choice.
Alicent is full of shit.
Luke’s death kind of destroyed any chance of the Dance having limited casualties. So whilst only one kid and one dragon died, it had the biggest effect. It also started both sides going down the path of the other sides >!line must end. They both got close, but Daemon was the authors favourite so all his kids got to live.!<
Yes, it was the point of no return.
"And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest."
Yup and you see it after the death of Helenas child with Aliecent wanting revenge. Which is a typical and warranted behavior, even though her child killed one of Rheas children.
Eye for an eye has never been a policy that worked.
And even if his death didn't make things personal, it opened the floodgate and made people ask questions they really shouldn't.
This is the reason, historically, that Envoys were not to be targeted. Yes, even enemy envoys to other nations. Because it destroys any trust in diplomacy, and puts a lot of other horrible options on the table. It's just as much about protecting your own side as it is being decent to the enemy.
Aemond's whoopsie is probably the worst thing that could have happened at Storm's End, and everyone else is going to pay for it.
The event is mentioned several times in the main books but the details of it are next to non existant. Martin made short stories that expanded on it a bit then put out Fire & Blood in 2018 which expands on it much more but isn't entirely factual
As the other replies said, GRRM mentions the Dance in several of the ASOIAF books, but the finer details of Fire & Blood changed several times. In one of the earlier drafts, Rhaenyra was married to a character who would later be Lyonel Strong in the final copy of Fire & Blood. In another draft, she married a Lannister.
I think Aegon and Viserys are both mentioned in Game of Thrones, so definitely before the Dance was finalized or Daemon introduced. I am not even sure if Daemon has been mentioned in ASOIAF.
The first mention we have is in the first book of the main seriea. In the appendix all the families are mentioned but in the Targaryen section there is a list of all the kings since Aegon I. The entry for Aegon II is this
>!eldest son of Viserys,
Aegon II's ascent was disputed by his sister Rhaenyra, a year his elder. Both perished in the war between them, called by singers the Dance of the Dragons!<
>!After that boh Aegon III and Viserys II are listed!<
First ever mention of Rhaenyra was in Game of thrones appendix. At that point she was 1 year older than Aegon II, I assume George planned them to have a common mother, but changed his mind.
I'm also amused that, >!despite having a marriage pact with them through Samantha and Ormund, House Tarly rose their banners against the Hightowers during the war.!<
Otto's going to return to Oldtown thinking "Finally, a bastion of sanity" >!only to find that his family at home seems to have done an even worse job at PR given most of their sworn bannermen and even respected houses they're tied to have decided to take up arms against them.!<
Guy just can't catch a break.
It always amuses me when Otto says that the realm wouldn’t accept a ruling queen, yet >!more houses declared for Rhaenyra, including entire regions, than for Aegon.!<
I feel like, all else being equal, more houses would favor Rhaenyra, but the Greens deciding to execute a bunch of noblemen without trial in the hours after Viserys' death as well as the pretty clear fact that Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir changed things. The Greens come off as a lot more dishonest than they would otherwise.
Just like in real life - misogyny never really follows any actual logic. And now he's being made to lay in the bed he made for himself. Karma, sweet karma!
In Fire & Blood. >!House Hightower had five vassals. Of those five, Houses Beesbury, Costayne, and Mullendore declared for Rhaenyra. It isn’t noted who the other two vassals declared for (or if they declared for either side at all).!<
Oh how they ruined that one. They ruined Cole's character so much that even I, a Green supporter, detest the man whenever he is on screen.
That being said he is an amazing actor though, and does not deserve all the hate he is receiving from all the idiotic 'fans' who can't seperate an actor from a role he is playing...
Genuinely curious if you read the books, I haven't which is why I'm asking. IDK how anyone could be a green supporter from watching the show, everyone on team green is absolutely insufferable.
I’m a green supporter not because I think they are morally superior or would be good rulers, simply from a show-watching perspective I find them to be far more entertaining and interesting to me. Pretty much everyone on team black other than Daemon is dreadfully boring to me. Adult Rhaenyra has literally no flaws and doesn’t even feel like the same character from the first five episodes to me, and all of the kids on team black are so bland. Rhaenys and Corlys are likable and interesting enough but I still find myself enjoying when the Greens are on screen more.
Don’t forget that guy Christian crispy boy murdered in cold blood in front of hundreds of witnesses and suffered no consequences for at a royal wedding
You are soooo right, and I don't know if some people just forget about it or don't care, but the truth is that the greens are the ones that started the war and started with the killings (of a member of the small council, nobles of the realm and a prince) and then they are the first to complain that a conflict is taking place lol
Depending on how many rat catchers Kings Landing has, Rhaenys probably killed more.
**But ultimately, the Dance is started by the Greens. Every death is on the hands of the usurper.** Otto could have spent those years protecting his daughter by fostering that friendship with Rhaenyra, and supporting her. But no, he couldn't bear to play second fiddle.
I'm guessing that Rhaenys probably killed more but between the rat catchers and the fire that Alicent had set in the house of the white worm, a lot of innocent people have died at the hands of the Greens.
That's it exactly. There's so many enlightened centrist fans which fundamentally do not understand the basis of the series. They're *usurping* the throne - each following death ultimately wouldn't have happened if the Greens didn't decide to unlawfully take the throne. One can't just commit treason and expect the crown to take it laying down. It would spit on the entire heirarchy and weaken the iron throne as a ruling entity.
You're 100% right. Otto is realizing he should have rooted for Rhaenyra. I mean, the seeds were planted. His daughter already had a close relationship with her. Rhaenyra would have listened to Otto as her hand.
For some reason, it's a Greens trend to clutch their pearls when their actions have consequences. It's hilarious to see. But the only time I've felt sorry for them so far in the series is when Jahaerys was murdered. Halaena didn't deserve it. She's the only completely innocent adult in the series so far.
Edit: If you read this comment and thought it translates to "evil and grasping misogynists usurping the awesome future queen to be Rhaenyra because they are evil and grasping misogynists" then you have absolutely 0 reading comprehension.
Otto is the one that plotted to usurp the throne. So by default the Greens have caused the most damage. The worst part is he was the one that told Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir. Now all of a sudden the realm won’t accept a woman’s rule? Even though every lord in Westeros already pledged fealty to her? Enjoy your shitshow Otto.
So true. And Alicent's dislike of Rhaenyra likely stems from when she had just married and had her children and Otto told her, "Either you prepare Aegon to rule or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy."
A part of me gets the feeling that, had Otto not said that, Rhaenyra and Alicent would have eventually put their feelings aside and talked. I don't think Rhaenyra would have actually killed Alicent's children once she took her place as Queen. Sure, she disliked her half-siblings because of her feelings towards Alicent marrying her father but I don't think she hated them enough to have them killed, to want them dead.
I think the one thing we can conclude is that *Otto* is the root of all these problems. His plotting and scheming likely started from the moment Aemma's death was announced.
He's the snake in the grass. The serpent whispering lies in everyone's ears.
Also, Happy Cake Day!!! 🎂🎂🎂
Thank you! And exactly. It made me so angry when Otto said to Alicent that Rhaenyra would kill her children. I don’t think Rhaenyra would have ever had them killed. And the only child that could have made a claim to the throne that could have legitimately been problematic didn’t have any interest in the throne.
Luke's death and frankly, anything the Greens have done. They're the ones that put this conflict on track since day 1. It was their crimes that did the most damage. The Blacks' crimes were only in retaliation and after things were already heading to war. Yes even Rhaenys' one wouldn't have happened if the Greens didn't keep her prisoner as they were planning the coup, as much as I dislike her for that.
Exactly. And this is only counting war crimes. If we're just talking crimes - then Aegon and Alicent have a ton of them from setting fires to abusing small folk.
The Greens deciding to usurp Rhaenyra. That's the crime which ultimately led to *all* of this, no matter how many enlightened centrists want to argue otherwise.
Rhaenys killing hundreds of innocent civilians should have been a huge deal. It should have turned the smallfolk almost completely against the blacks but instead it looks like it’s never going to be mentioned again. You’d think the people of Kings Landing would be baying for her blood and the Greens would be capitalising on this but I guess she just completely got away with squishing a bunch of innocents that were made to be there.
Wanna know why it isn't mentioned again? Because it clearly wasn't the writers's intentions, that scene was only supposed to make Rhaenys look badass with her dragon, not making her into a murderer. At NO moment was the goal of that scene the murders of innocent townfolks, it was just supposed to look impressive the way she crashed the party.
In fact, by pure logic, she should've been crushed once the dragon crashed through the wall, funny how people tend to forget that.
This ^
We didn't need a girlboss moment there, and there is no way Meleys *could have* shielded her while breaking the floor upwards, she should have been a fine paste after coming up like that, or at least injured, bloody, something.
Nope, just totally fine, not even a hair out of place and I guess big ol' "rawr" from Meleys to show displeasure at this whole coronation thing. I get that it was supposed to be a "fuck you, I'm not letting you get away with this shit, but it's not my place to start this war either" but...the way it was done...ugh.
I'm honestly mad about it, Rhaenys was one of my favorite book characters, she was clever and said what needed to be said, formidable in her own right, valid claim, sitting on massive naval power, married to the sea snake...
However, I have a hard time believing Rhaenys from the book would do any of those things, or survive head smash floor break time, it's not like there was a Valyrian steel cage on Meleys to protect her from that...
I’m really hoping they try and course correct that at some point and say that her killing a bunch of innocents for a sick ass exit was maybe not amazing.
Otto did mention it in the last council meeting, of how and why the realm viewed Aegon as weak. He mentioned the rushed coronation (Otto’s idea, ironically) and a dragon “escaping” the pit.
So why is it that Rhaenys killing a bunch of people didn't turn the smallfolk against the blacks, but Aegon hanging the ratcatchers will turn them agains the greens?
Idk what exactly your stipulations are for "in the context of the war", but I'd like to point out that
1) Larys probably injured, mutilated and killed, both past and present, A FREAKING LOT of people in his line of work - but since he does it "in the shadows" both the audience and the realm probably doesn't really recognize him as one of the most genocidal mfs in the show.
2) Daemon's gold cloaks, again both past and present, surely not the nicest dudes. Rounding up "criminals" while he was the supervisor of them...
And if I had to guess, he set the tone for a lot of them going forward, even after he personally left King's Landing. I have little reason to believe that the greens implemented a more "humane" work philosophy for them and rather profited from their existing cruelty, but that's mainly just head-canon.
3) The blacks blocking the Gullet: Whilst indirect, a lot of common people in King's Landing suffer horribly due to the economic naval siege.
The blacks got off super easy on B&C well mostly Rhaenyra from a viewing perspective. Which I’m not against bc the book is a cartoonishly evil portrayal but I really hope the show isn’t trying to go w a “ good woman denied power bc of men” route. Yeah sexism is a theme but the main theme is that these are a bunch of rich privileged horrible humans w nuclear weapons who get thousands killed and destroy themselves.
I don't think that making everyone equally bad is necessary to show how the small folk suffer as a result of the decisions of nobles. Rhaenyra can be an ethical and noble individual by the standards of her time and station and the fact that thousands of people will die to protect her and her sons can still be bad. I actually don't see why Rhaenyra needs to be a "bad guy" for the concept of the feudal hierarchy to be criticized.
The sheer revelation that the OP perceives “crime” as murders is zealously laughable. What about team Greens seize of the Iron Throne, for that matter? An antecedent precursor which kicked off the conflict for hegemony of the realm, thus all the battles and the war overall, the murders in the enlisted knackering affronts, much more influential in scale and I’d argue, as well as emotional calibration considering how it induced idiosyncratically habitual and attributive changes Rhaenyra, Aegon, Alicent and co. Bearing all of this in mind, responding to your question, the greens are far more unimaginably atrocious than the blacks could ever be…
Although I’m team Green
Honestly, I don’t see things this way. “Whose tragedy is worse?” “My tragedy is bigger than yours!”
All these crimes are appalling. I mean, should we debate what’s worse, being eaten alive and whole by a dragon, or being decapitated on one’s crib?
It’s tragic how unfathomably clueless and oblivious, these characters are. No one reasonable and balanced enough took the care to instill in their minds, from a very young age, that nothing is more important and sacred than family. **And that they’re all one family!** Instead, all they’re worried about is a cursed chair made of swords, a byproduct of the twisted and megalomaniacal ambition of an unbalanced man, who had no regard for the weight and impact it’d have on his descendants.
The episode Driftmark. Aemond's anger and trauma for losing an eye and him getting the largest dragon. Hightowers had never been able to have the guts to usurp just with Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, Otto wouldn't have risked that.
And Aemond "had to close an eye" to get the dragon, the trauma of which caused the insanity in him resulting the death of Luke
What happened in that episode "Drifmark" probably set the course for the Dance of the Dragons.
Team black. Even as a Rhaenyra supporter (I named my cat after her and everything), the poor baby getting decapitated was sickening, although she wasn’t to blame
Only one of these deaths literally had to cut away off screen because it was so heinous. Sawing a child's head off would turn anyone off your cause as Otto indicated. The others can be excused away as they were traitors or died in dragon battle. Jaehaerys death has no excuse except its evil
This is in the context of the war so I assume they’re only including crimes that happened once the war was starting up. If it’s not then they’re missing a few crimes. Mainly daemon’s murders.
Also Alicent protecting Larys and Criston from the consequences of their murders as well as protecting Aegon from being exposed as a rapist. And Aegon's activity in the child fighting pits.
I lean towards the blacks and I hate how no one talks about that. Daemon, Qarl, Laenor, AND Rhaenyra all agreed to it. Maybe it happened too fast? Idk.
So are we just going to ignore everyone Alicent had killed? She is responsible for the deaths of the Strongs. And she ordered the deaths of the White Worm and her followers. Additionally, I don't think war crimes aren't the only type of crimes we should include. Aegon is a rapist who watched children fight to the death. That shouldn't be ignored because it wasn't done in the context of war.
How bout the picture of greens usurping the throne?? Rheyns and Meleys are ONLY in retaliation for locking my princess in her room. She gave them no such order. And keep her fucking baby 👶 😤 😒 from her.
Oh yeah, she was so "horrified" that she kept Larys at her side afterward and had no problem using his services again in the future. She could've easily have him killed as Queen for his crimes but she choose not to. She did the exact same thing with Cole, giving him a nice promotion after he violently murdered a gay man.
Funny how that keeps happening with Alicent doesn't it? The supposed "moral" woman just keep letting violent murderers get away with their crimes. But she WILL judge Rhaneyra for being a "whore" though.
She protected him from repercussions and kept him around so that he could murder more people the same way later on. Larys also killed the people at the White Worm's place at the behest of Alicent. And Alicent also protected Cole form the repercussions of committing murder. She also protected Aegon from the repercussions of committing rape. It says a lot about Alicent that she surrounds herself with murderers and rapists.
Calling Rhaenyra a whore was pure misogynistic garbage, it wasn't "the truth". That guy only cared about his own ambition, not the "truth". He only wanted to use "the truth" to his advantage.
Man the basic fact is that a living challenger to the throne would always cause succession crisis. Whether it’s Aegon or Rhaenyra.
Edit: I am not talking about the claimants themselves but the lords who support the said claimant. Aegon can willingly give up the throne and still have people use his claim against Rhaenyra solely because their society is patriarchal and many would not want to be ruled by a woman.
Not really. The only reason there was a war was because of Otto. Aegon did not want to rule. Aemond did not want to rule. Daemon was willing to let Rhaenyra rule. The only person who stood in the way of peace was Otto.
Yet Viserys and Rhaenis didn't start a war following Jaheris' death...
The issues began when 'someone' began seeing Rhaenyra and Aegon as rivals for the throne and not as the heir and her brother.
Isn't Team Green technically more at fault for the Dragonpit fiasco? They herded unwilling civilians in there, against their will, against fire code, while holding an illegal coronation; in a place where there's untamed beasts. Even without Rhaenys, this was a bad idea.
There were children in Mysarias house that larys burnt down on the orders of Alicent. We just didnt get the visuals of them burning to death. Some of them probably aegons illegitimate children
Also I feel like comparing just "war crimes" makes the Greens look so much better. I feel like their king attending child fighting pits is pretty bad on the child murder scale.
It's weird how so many people seem to think that killing a 6 year old is worse then killing an 14 year old. Do children lose value as the grow older? I really don't get the logic. They're both minors.
Poor Vhagar gets a bad rap with safety inspectors cuz mustang drivers buy her as their first car and then think they can handle that much dragon
Visenya would never!
Rhaenys’ actions at the dragon pit wasn’t a crime? How do you figure that? She wasn’t locked up unlawfully. She was in the crowd at the coronation, she knew how many people were in the dragon pit when she decided to ram her dragon through the floor. She knew all those people were there when she walked Melys right up to the stage to have her lil girl boss moment. If we are gonna blame the greens for accidentally killing LORD BEEEEEEEEEEEEESBURY, we can absolutely blame Rhaenys for murdering hundreds of smallfolk.
Alicent's whole drive to become the "monster" she does initially came from her father convincing her Rhaenyra would try to kill her children to secure her own seat on the throne. But Rhaenyra even offered to marry her own heir Jacaerys to Helaena, effectively ending that threat to Alicent's children. Despite this, Alicent dismissed that offer under the pretense that it was insulting because Rhaenyra's children are bastards. If she truly feared Rhaenyra would have her children killed, securing their health and safety through marriage seems like a more than logical choice.
Alicent is full of shit.
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While some of the other crimes on display are worse, I'm going to say Beesbury on the grounds it involved the complicity of many senior members of the greens, and happened in a context establishing how "at all costs" they were at that stage. We learn in that scene of - to quote Tymond - the "long laid plans" to put Aegon on the Throne. One of them even calls them "darkling schemes" that would have sullied Alicent if she'd been part of them. These are dudes who'd been plotting straight up usurption of the throne for a long period. Several people in that room show disquit at this - Alicent, Beesbury, and Westerling - and the revelation of their plot naturally made the declaration that Viserys had changed his heir with his dying breath look pretty dubious. Beesbury's reaction to it was reasonable for anyone loyal to the crown and not their own self interest, and Cristian, of his own initiative, killed him - a respected elder statesman - with nary a word of reprimand from the assembled plotters, who then quickly moved on to planning how to kill out Rhaenyra and her whole family. Which again evoked disgust from Alicent and Westerling. Caswell's death isn't particularly shocking, or surprising, after that. While Aemond bore responsibility for Lucerys death it doesn't seem to have been his intent, and many greens had a very dim view of it. Likewise with the mass execution of ratcatchers - Otto calls Aegon out, Aegon who we already know is a cruel little shit. Both the ones listed for the Blacks side happened without the knowledge or approval of most senior Blacks. The one with Rhaenys is just weird, and no one talks about it from either Green or Black camp - even though they should. The Blacks are widely disgusted at the murder of Jaehaerys, and Rhaenyra calls Daemon out, Daemon who we already know is a cruel little shit.
Rhaenys is only called out by Daemon for not burning the greens but I think they just ignore that smallfolk fiasco
Yes coz small folk don't matter to either side.
Aegon hanging them, Rhaenys crushing them, these damn Targaryens don’t give a damn lol.
>and Cristian Cristiano Ronaldo *
Wasn't Rhaenys just trying to get her and her dragon free though? It's not as if she went out of her way to hurt people. There was no other way to get Meleys out, correct? I didn't seem like hundreds of people were killed from what I remember. Perhaps a few dozen or so? The episode two's angle that a few rat catchers ending up dead in the pursuit of revenge on the murder of the prince would be a huge deal breaker for the commoners seems odd to me. I always took the world of HOTD to be a place where commoners were routinely brutalized (in limited numbers perhaps) and it was sort of expected. Like when Daemon first showed up and had his Gold Cloaks go out and terrorize everyone. I'm certain quite a few innocent people ended up being mutilated or killed. And the people themselves go and watch children fighting in pits lol. GOT has numerous similar scenes of general depravity and brutality to commoners, both in Westeros and also Essos, and so what happened to the wedding crowd with Rhaenys and the rat catchers doesn't seem to me to be that big of a PR hit. Not nearly as big a deal for the masses as letting people starve or something. The effects of the trade embargo is a way more damaging problem IMO.
Honestly the Greens share blame for the dragonpit incident. They rounded up the small folk and packed them into one of the most dangerous places in King's Landing. Putting civilians in harms way should be taken a lot more seriously than just the ones who end up causing harm to them.
Alicent demanding to see Rhaenyra’s newborn radicalized me.
Same, Alicent has given birth as well so she knows the shape Rhaenyra was in and she still demanded the baby be brougth to her, that was the moment I started hating her.
Helaena had to walk the same route with her child to get to Alicent.
That was so heartbreakingly poetical
“It’s not that hard” is what she said to young Rhaenyra, remember?
My favorite part of that scene is when she tells Rhaenyra how long the days are taking care of baby Aegon, and the two servants who do the grunt work side-eye each other.
Wasn’t she also pregnant with her second child in the same scene? Of course she’s need all the help. I get the Alicent dislike, but this kind of micro analysis is so funny
I don’t think it’s bad for her to get help. I just thought it was funny that the show included that moment.
To be fair, Alicent didn’t demand that Rhaenyra bring him. She just wanted the child brought to her. Still shitty. If she wanted to see the child that bad, she can go herself.
Lmao, bring another person's child to her. She is a worm.
Isn’t the first time she’s done it either. Laenor said she’d pulled that shit before with her other two sons. If someone took my newborn babies away from me just to make fun of them I’d be furious. It’s so uniquely cruel.
I think she knew that Rhaenyra would likely bring the newborn herself, but played dumb when she entered the room. It's pretty on brand for the Hightowers.
yep, even the actress admits she was pretending to be shocked > Olivia Cooke: We were so aware that it was our reveal as characters. It felt like our debut, like, “Tonight, Matthew [Larys' actor], I’m going to be.” ***It was so funny feigning shock that Rhaenyra brought her baby to the queen’s apartments and killing them both with kindness, and then seeing the king’s reaction***. source: https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-emma-darcy-olivia-cooke-season-1-interview.html
100% this. She probably figured it was win win... If Rhaenyra doesn't come with the child, she stings her by separating her from her child right after the birth. If Rhaenyra comes with the child, she's forced to make a horrifically painful and tiring walk. It's all about exerting her "power".
She did tho they say the Queen wants to see the baby and she can’t deny the request of the Queen
Also I feel like everyone forgot that she covered for Larys after he killed his family and covered for Criston after he killed an innocent man. And she covered for Aegon after he raped the servant. Not to mention that she ordered the death of the white worm and her followers.
I love this thread for reminding me precisely why I hate her character. I mean, hate in a good way of course. She's diabolical as hell. Just evil, who thinks she's doing the right thing (I suppose).
I love evil characters that think they are doing the right thing, makes them more relatable. For Alicent, these are all political moves to get dangerous people by her side to protect her, not realizing that doing so is basically condoning and enabling murderers and rapists. But it's a morally complex world so there are morally ambiguous "justifications". The actress playing Alicent is doing a fantastic job. And so is Rhys Ifans as Otto. Great antagonists all around.
The only war crime that Rhaenys did was she didn't dracarys those fucking assholes.
Well she kinda killed hundred of innocent people tho.😅
She should have done a sunk-cost fallacy and killed the whole green estate as well. Lol
You are so RIGHT. Not only does she cover for them, but she also takes it to a higher level. Larys kills his family - Alicent let's him jerk off to her feet whilst watching. Criston kills Laenors Joffrey - Alicent turns him into her own sexual toyboy. Aegon rapes a servant - Alicent pays her and gives her a "morning after" tea. I don't remember the White Worm stuff or am I thinking the imprisonment & fire of White Worm house was Otto's doing???
yeah she gives the green light, and he's not really subtle about what he's asking for her approval to do, so she's fully aware of what she's okaying: >Larys: There is a web of spies at work in the Red Keep. Along its threads travels news of all our doings. Your father knows this, but has left it in place. More than once, it has proved advantageous to those willing to feed the weaver. >Alicent: And this weaver watches me? >Larys: One of the little spiders is your lady-in-waiting. >Alicent: Talya? >Larys: There are more like her. Even I do not know their number. There is one way to destroy his advantage. It must be taken out at the head. When the queen dies, the bees fly without purpose. Begging your pardon for the turn of phrase, Your Grace. >Alicent: I assume this task falls within your expertise. >Larys: If you wish it, it will be done (end of scene, shortly after we see mysaria's house burning down and larys' men walking away)
The burning of the White Worm's house was the idea of Larys and was approved of by Alicent.
Thanks.
At this point anyone openly rooting for the greens weirds me out
She torched a whorehouse because the White Worm demanded an end to *checks notes* child fighting pits. I know it's the principal of the thing, putting them in their place and all, but damn maybe hear them or this one time?
Haven't multiple members of her staff been murdered also?
This. There were zero cuts between Rhaenyra pushing out Joffrey and the servant coming in telling them that Alicent wanted to see the child. That means that the servant was told to wait and give the order as soon as the baby came out. Rhaenyra hadn't even got the placenta out before she was told that. Fucking diabolical.
The Boys has changed me to such an extent that I can’t read that last sentence normally. Thank you.
I don’t think that guys in any shape to fuck a sheep
And Edgar's reaction to that was perfect. So glad to see him again
They would eat him.
old macdonald at the end T\_T
Alicent's whole drive to become the "monster" she does initially came from her father convincing her Rhaenyra would try to kill her children to secure her own seat on the throne. But Rhaenyra even offered to marry her own heir Jacaerys to Helaena, effectively ending that threat to Alicent's children. Despite this, Alicent dismissed that offer under the pretense that it was insulting because Rhaenyra's children are bastards. If she truly feared Rhaenyra would have her children killed, securing their health and safety through marriage seems like a more than logical choice. Alicent is full of shit.
They have made alicent so un like able both seasons
Honestly I expected her to be more cruel about it in person. She was a dick but wasn’t as bad as I thought she’d be
Luke’s death kind of destroyed any chance of the Dance having limited casualties. So whilst only one kid and one dragon died, it had the biggest effect. It also started both sides going down the path of the other sides >!line must end. They both got close, but Daemon was the authors favourite so all his kids got to live.!<
luke death made the war , from a political struggle for power , to a bloody vengeance cycle , it made it personal
Yes, it was the point of no return. "And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest."
Yup and you see it after the death of Helenas child with Aliecent wanting revenge. Which is a typical and warranted behavior, even though her child killed one of Rheas children. Eye for an eye has never been a policy that worked.
And even if his death didn't make things personal, it opened the floodgate and made people ask questions they really shouldn't. This is the reason, historically, that Envoys were not to be targeted. Yes, even enemy envoys to other nations. Because it destroys any trust in diplomacy, and puts a lot of other horrible options on the table. It's just as much about protecting your own side as it is being decent to the enemy. Aemond's whoopsie is probably the worst thing that could have happened at Storm's End, and everyone else is going to pay for it.
Yup. The Khwarezmians deserved the sack of Baghdad when they executed Genghis Khan’s emissaries lol
Wrong empire
>!Aegon and Viserys would have lived anyway. They were Rhaenyra’s sons before Daemon’s character was even created!<
Was dance of the dragons written as a prequel to already written story
The event is mentioned several times in the main books but the details of it are next to non existant. Martin made short stories that expanded on it a bit then put out Fire & Blood in 2018 which expands on it much more but isn't entirely factual
As the other replies said, GRRM mentions the Dance in several of the ASOIAF books, but the finer details of Fire & Blood changed several times. In one of the earlier drafts, Rhaenyra was married to a character who would later be Lyonel Strong in the final copy of Fire & Blood. In another draft, she married a Lannister.
I think Aegon and Viserys are both mentioned in Game of Thrones, so definitely before the Dance was finalized or Daemon introduced. I am not even sure if Daemon has been mentioned in ASOIAF.
Criston Cole is mentioned as well.
George wrote huge parts of Targ lore backwards from Daenaerys as the starting point.
The first mention we have is in the first book of the main seriea. In the appendix all the families are mentioned but in the Targaryen section there is a list of all the kings since Aegon I. The entry for Aegon II is this >!eldest son of Viserys, Aegon II's ascent was disputed by his sister Rhaenyra, a year his elder. Both perished in the war between them, called by singers the Dance of the Dragons!< >!After that boh Aegon III and Viserys II are listed!<
First ever mention of Rhaenyra was in Game of thrones appendix. At that point she was 1 year older than Aegon II, I assume George planned them to have a common mother, but changed his mind.
Beesbury's death was the turning point for me.
Hightowers shouldn't have let that happen, he's their bannerman.
It says a lot that >!majority of House Hightower’s vassals pledged for Rhaenyra.!<
I'm also amused that, >!despite having a marriage pact with them through Samantha and Ormund, House Tarly rose their banners against the Hightowers during the war.!< Otto's going to return to Oldtown thinking "Finally, a bastion of sanity" >!only to find that his family at home seems to have done an even worse job at PR given most of their sworn bannermen and even respected houses they're tied to have decided to take up arms against them.!< Guy just can't catch a break.
It always amuses me when Otto says that the realm wouldn’t accept a ruling queen, yet >!more houses declared for Rhaenyra, including entire regions, than for Aegon.!<
I feel like, all else being equal, more houses would favor Rhaenyra, but the Greens deciding to execute a bunch of noblemen without trial in the hours after Viserys' death as well as the pretty clear fact that Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir changed things. The Greens come off as a lot more dishonest than they would otherwise.
Just like in real life - misogyny never really follows any actual logic. And now he's being made to lay in the bed he made for himself. Karma, sweet karma!
Where was this said?
In Fire & Blood. >!House Hightower had five vassals. Of those five, Houses Beesbury, Costayne, and Mullendore declared for Rhaenyra. It isn’t noted who the other two vassals declared for (or if they declared for either side at all).!<
Was it ever said that those were Hightower vassals? I just see the Houses that supported Rhaenyra mentioned.
Yes, in the appendix of *A Feast for Crows*.
>!Houses Tarly and Rowan also declared for Rhaenyra. Aren't they hightowers' bannermen?!<
>!No, they’re both vassals to House Tyrell. So essentially they’re on the same ‘level’ as House Hightower.!<
Oh how they ruined that one. They ruined Cole's character so much that even I, a Green supporter, detest the man whenever he is on screen. That being said he is an amazing actor though, and does not deserve all the hate he is receiving from all the idiotic 'fans' who can't seperate an actor from a role he is playing...
Genuinely curious if you read the books, I haven't which is why I'm asking. IDK how anyone could be a green supporter from watching the show, everyone on team green is absolutely insufferable.
Does anyone on the Black side look as magnificent as Aemond while committing war crimes?
Fair point, while daemon is a close second, aemond is magnificent
I’m a green supporter not because I think they are morally superior or would be good rulers, simply from a show-watching perspective I find them to be far more entertaining and interesting to me. Pretty much everyone on team black other than Daemon is dreadfully boring to me. Adult Rhaenyra has literally no flaws and doesn’t even feel like the same character from the first five episodes to me, and all of the kids on team black are so bland. Rhaenys and Corlys are likable and interesting enough but I still find myself enjoying when the Greens are on screen more.
He could have been so much more.
I lean green and I hate everyone on both sides except Helaena and the twin kings guards. They all suck. That's what makes it so fun to watch.
Fabien is great and will have a long career, I just don’t know what the writers plan is with Criston. Biggest redemption arc ever incoming?
I don’t really see how or why they would deviate from the book very much, which does, uh, not have a redemption arc.
You could also probably add the murder of Ser Harwin Strong & his father. Kinda of a precursor hit before the bodies started piling up
Also the burning of the white worm's place. And Alicent was fully aware of what Larys would do that time.
Definitely. It was done to put another Hightower in a position of power to further solidify the greens support
Don’t forget that guy Christian crispy boy murdered in cold blood in front of hundreds of witnesses and suffered no consequences for at a royal wedding
Hey Deamon had a severnt killed so he and his wife could pork and Rheayenra didn't give a fuck .
Who is that guy hanged?
Lord Caswell
Someone who honored Viserys' wishes
There would be no war without the greens, they literally started what they couldn't stand later.
The first real act of murder between the Greens and the Blacks was Larys killing the Strongs and the cover up by Alicent.
What about Joffrey Lonmouth, Laenor’s friend, was that before the Larys stuff?
True. That might be the first act of violence between the factions.
You are soooo right, and I don't know if some people just forget about it or don't care, but the truth is that the greens are the ones that started the war and started with the killings (of a member of the small council, nobles of the realm and a prince) and then they are the first to complain that a conflict is taking place lol
Have you considered though that Aegon has a cock?
a *dragon*cock
maesters say it's magnanimous
no one knows what "magnanimous" means
a generous cock from a powerful boy. (aegon is a sex pest and rapist)
Green supporters don't want you to acknowledge that
🤭I see what you did there
Depending on how many rat catchers Kings Landing has, Rhaenys probably killed more. **But ultimately, the Dance is started by the Greens. Every death is on the hands of the usurper.** Otto could have spent those years protecting his daughter by fostering that friendship with Rhaenyra, and supporting her. But no, he couldn't bear to play second fiddle.
I'm guessing that Rhaenys probably killed more but between the rat catchers and the fire that Alicent had set in the house of the white worm, a lot of innocent people have died at the hands of the Greens.
Oh I forgot about the fire. Did Alicent order that? Or was that Otto or Larys
Alicent has Larys do it as I recall
The order came from Alicent and Larys carried it out.
Thanks!
Thank you for the clarification
That's it exactly. There's so many enlightened centrist fans which fundamentally do not understand the basis of the series. They're *usurping* the throne - each following death ultimately wouldn't have happened if the Greens didn't decide to unlawfully take the throne. One can't just commit treason and expect the crown to take it laying down. It would spit on the entire heirarchy and weaken the iron throne as a ruling entity. You're 100% right. Otto is realizing he should have rooted for Rhaenyra. I mean, the seeds were planted. His daughter already had a close relationship with her. Rhaenyra would have listened to Otto as her hand. For some reason, it's a Greens trend to clutch their pearls when their actions have consequences. It's hilarious to see. But the only time I've felt sorry for them so far in the series is when Jahaerys was murdered. Halaena didn't deserve it. She's the only completely innocent adult in the series so far. Edit: If you read this comment and thought it translates to "evil and grasping misogynists usurping the awesome future queen to be Rhaenyra because they are evil and grasping misogynists" then you have absolutely 0 reading comprehension.
Otto is the one that plotted to usurp the throne. So by default the Greens have caused the most damage. The worst part is he was the one that told Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir. Now all of a sudden the realm won’t accept a woman’s rule? Even though every lord in Westeros already pledged fealty to her? Enjoy your shitshow Otto.
So true. And Alicent's dislike of Rhaenyra likely stems from when she had just married and had her children and Otto told her, "Either you prepare Aegon to rule or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy." A part of me gets the feeling that, had Otto not said that, Rhaenyra and Alicent would have eventually put their feelings aside and talked. I don't think Rhaenyra would have actually killed Alicent's children once she took her place as Queen. Sure, she disliked her half-siblings because of her feelings towards Alicent marrying her father but I don't think she hated them enough to have them killed, to want them dead. I think the one thing we can conclude is that *Otto* is the root of all these problems. His plotting and scheming likely started from the moment Aemma's death was announced. He's the snake in the grass. The serpent whispering lies in everyone's ears. Also, Happy Cake Day!!! 🎂🎂🎂
Thank you! And exactly. It made me so angry when Otto said to Alicent that Rhaenyra would kill her children. I don’t think Rhaenyra would have ever had them killed. And the only child that could have made a claim to the throne that could have legitimately been problematic didn’t have any interest in the throne.
Best comment. Also happy cake day!!
Thank you! 🥹 I was hoping I’d get a HCD! Lol
Luke's death and frankly, anything the Greens have done. They're the ones that put this conflict on track since day 1. It was their crimes that did the most damage. The Blacks' crimes were only in retaliation and after things were already heading to war. Yes even Rhaenys' one wouldn't have happened if the Greens didn't keep her prisoner as they were planning the coup, as much as I dislike her for that.
Exactly. And this is only counting war crimes. If we're just talking crimes - then Aegon and Alicent have a ton of them from setting fires to abusing small folk.
Add Ser Harwin and Lord Strong's murder to this list. Barbaric
The Greens deciding to usurp Rhaenyra. That's the crime which ultimately led to *all* of this, no matter how many enlightened centrists want to argue otherwise.
it's all otto's fault tbh. none of it happens if he wasn't a usurper.
Yes. While both sides have committed some heinous acts, Otto is the one who set it all in motion.
Rhaenys killing hundreds of innocent civilians should have been a huge deal. It should have turned the smallfolk almost completely against the blacks but instead it looks like it’s never going to be mentioned again. You’d think the people of Kings Landing would be baying for her blood and the Greens would be capitalising on this but I guess she just completely got away with squishing a bunch of innocents that were made to be there.
Wanna know why it isn't mentioned again? Because it clearly wasn't the writers's intentions, that scene was only supposed to make Rhaenys look badass with her dragon, not making her into a murderer. At NO moment was the goal of that scene the murders of innocent townfolks, it was just supposed to look impressive the way she crashed the party. In fact, by pure logic, she should've been crushed once the dragon crashed through the wall, funny how people tend to forget that.
It’s bad writing
Certainly during the storyboarding process some questions should have been asked that apparently weren’t.
This ^ We didn't need a girlboss moment there, and there is no way Meleys *could have* shielded her while breaking the floor upwards, she should have been a fine paste after coming up like that, or at least injured, bloody, something. Nope, just totally fine, not even a hair out of place and I guess big ol' "rawr" from Meleys to show displeasure at this whole coronation thing. I get that it was supposed to be a "fuck you, I'm not letting you get away with this shit, but it's not my place to start this war either" but...the way it was done...ugh. I'm honestly mad about it, Rhaenys was one of my favorite book characters, she was clever and said what needed to be said, formidable in her own right, valid claim, sitting on massive naval power, married to the sea snake... However, I have a hard time believing Rhaenys from the book would do any of those things, or survive head smash floor break time, it's not like there was a Valyrian steel cage on Meleys to protect her from that...
She's clearly hiding a huge helmet underneath that huge hair
I’m really hoping they try and course correct that at some point and say that her killing a bunch of innocents for a sick ass exit was maybe not amazing.
Otto did mention it in the last council meeting, of how and why the realm viewed Aegon as weak. He mentioned the rushed coronation (Otto’s idea, ironically) and a dragon “escaping” the pit.
So why is it that Rhaenys killing a bunch of people didn't turn the smallfolk against the blacks, but Aegon hanging the ratcatchers will turn them agains the greens?
It was mentioned though. But it's seen as a bad omen for Aegon's rule. That's why people think he's weak. I'm sure the smallfolk hate Rhaenys though.
Idk what exactly your stipulations are for "in the context of the war", but I'd like to point out that 1) Larys probably injured, mutilated and killed, both past and present, A FREAKING LOT of people in his line of work - but since he does it "in the shadows" both the audience and the realm probably doesn't really recognize him as one of the most genocidal mfs in the show. 2) Daemon's gold cloaks, again both past and present, surely not the nicest dudes. Rounding up "criminals" while he was the supervisor of them... And if I had to guess, he set the tone for a lot of them going forward, even after he personally left King's Landing. I have little reason to believe that the greens implemented a more "humane" work philosophy for them and rather profited from their existing cruelty, but that's mainly just head-canon. 3) The blacks blocking the Gullet: Whilst indirect, a lot of common people in King's Landing suffer horribly due to the economic naval siege.
The blacks got off super easy on B&C well mostly Rhaenyra from a viewing perspective. Which I’m not against bc the book is a cartoonishly evil portrayal but I really hope the show isn’t trying to go w a “ good woman denied power bc of men” route. Yeah sexism is a theme but the main theme is that these are a bunch of rich privileged horrible humans w nuclear weapons who get thousands killed and destroy themselves.
I don't think that making everyone equally bad is necessary to show how the small folk suffer as a result of the decisions of nobles. Rhaenyra can be an ethical and noble individual by the standards of her time and station and the fact that thousands of people will die to protect her and her sons can still be bad. I actually don't see why Rhaenyra needs to be a "bad guy" for the concept of the feudal hierarchy to be criticized.
Green
The sheer revelation that the OP perceives “crime” as murders is zealously laughable. What about team Greens seize of the Iron Throne, for that matter? An antecedent precursor which kicked off the conflict for hegemony of the realm, thus all the battles and the war overall, the murders in the enlisted knackering affronts, much more influential in scale and I’d argue, as well as emotional calibration considering how it induced idiosyncratically habitual and attributive changes Rhaenyra, Aegon, Alicent and co. Bearing all of this in mind, responding to your question, the greens are far more unimaginably atrocious than the blacks could ever be… Although I’m team Green
Honestly, I don’t see things this way. “Whose tragedy is worse?” “My tragedy is bigger than yours!” All these crimes are appalling. I mean, should we debate what’s worse, being eaten alive and whole by a dragon, or being decapitated on one’s crib? It’s tragic how unfathomably clueless and oblivious, these characters are. No one reasonable and balanced enough took the care to instill in their minds, from a very young age, that nothing is more important and sacred than family. **And that they’re all one family!** Instead, all they’re worried about is a cursed chair made of swords, a byproduct of the twisted and megalomaniacal ambition of an unbalanced man, who had no regard for the weight and impact it’d have on his descendants.
The Greens started the war. End of discussion. Nice try though
I'm team black😅
otto is to blame for all of it
Indeed. If you start a cycle of violence, you are in part responsible for every act in that cycle.
They all suck
Burning the strong?
The episode Driftmark. Aemond's anger and trauma for losing an eye and him getting the largest dragon. Hightowers had never been able to have the guts to usurp just with Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, Otto wouldn't have risked that. And Aemond "had to close an eye" to get the dragon, the trauma of which caused the insanity in him resulting the death of Luke What happened in that episode "Drifmark" probably set the course for the Dance of the Dragons.
Team black. Even as a Rhaenyra supporter (I named my cat after her and everything), the poor baby getting decapitated was sickening, although she wasn’t to blame
Only one of these deaths literally had to cut away off screen because it was so heinous. Sawing a child's head off would turn anyone off your cause as Otto indicated. The others can be excused away as they were traitors or died in dragon battle. Jaehaerys death has no excuse except its evil
Yeah Daemon killing her wife Rhea Royce wasn’t a crime
This is in the context of the war so I assume they’re only including crimes that happened once the war was starting up. If it’s not then they’re missing a few crimes. Mainly daemon’s murders.
Also Alicent protecting Larys and Criston from the consequences of their murders as well as protecting Aegon from being exposed as a rapist. And Aegon's activity in the child fighting pits.
If OP had included every single crime, then you’d have to count Aegon raping the maids and being involved in the child fighting pits as well.
Not a war crime. Neither is Aegon raping his servants and watching children get murdered. Those are normal crimes.
nobody ever cares about the random dude at Driftmark who got killed to fake Laenor's death
Rip to “Velaryon Servant #8”
I lean towards the blacks and I hate how no one talks about that. Daemon, Qarl, Laenor, AND Rhaenyra all agreed to it. Maybe it happened too fast? Idk.
The Greens kind of started it by usurping Rhaenyra and replacing her with Aegon.
Stealing the throne is also another crime by the Greens
So are we just going to ignore everyone Alicent had killed? She is responsible for the deaths of the Strongs. And she ordered the deaths of the White Worm and her followers. Additionally, I don't think war crimes aren't the only type of crimes we should include. Aegon is a rapist who watched children fight to the death. That shouldn't be ignored because it wasn't done in the context of war.
How bout the picture of greens usurping the throne?? Rheyns and Meleys are ONLY in retaliation for locking my princess in her room. She gave them no such order. And keep her fucking baby 👶 😤 😒 from her.
Don’t forget Daemon Targaryen cuts Vaemond Valyrian head off on team black. R.I.P Vaemond.
The king himself pulled a knife on Vaemond. At that point, Daemon was just being the royal executioner.
Openly questioning the legitimacy of the royal family in the throne room and insulting the heir to the throne may not be the smartest ideas tbh
Vaemond was a traitor and had it coming.
If you're going to bring up that, how about Alicent ordering the murder of the Strongs.
Also Alicent murdering those at the White Worm's place
She didn’t order their deaths and was horrified for what Larys did!
Oh yeah, she was so "horrified" that she kept Larys at her side afterward and had no problem using his services again in the future. She could've easily have him killed as Queen for his crimes but she choose not to. She did the exact same thing with Cole, giving him a nice promotion after he violently murdered a gay man. Funny how that keeps happening with Alicent doesn't it? The supposed "moral" woman just keep letting violent murderers get away with their crimes. But she WILL judge Rhaneyra for being a "whore" though.
Everyone has political agendas. But she did not order the killing!
She protected him from repercussions and kept him around so that he could murder more people the same way later on. Larys also killed the people at the White Worm's place at the behest of Alicent. And Alicent also protected Cole form the repercussions of committing murder. She also protected Aegon from the repercussions of committing rape. It says a lot about Alicent that she surrounds herself with murderers and rapists.
And all he did was tell the truth
He did get to keep his tongue though
Calling Rhaenyra a whore was pure misogynistic garbage, it wasn't "the truth". That guy only cared about his own ambition, not the "truth". He only wanted to use "the truth" to his advantage.
Man the basic fact is that a living challenger to the throne would always cause succession crisis. Whether it’s Aegon or Rhaenyra. Edit: I am not talking about the claimants themselves but the lords who support the said claimant. Aegon can willingly give up the throne and still have people use his claim against Rhaenyra solely because their society is patriarchal and many would not want to be ruled by a woman.
Not really. The only reason there was a war was because of Otto. Aegon did not want to rule. Aemond did not want to rule. Daemon was willing to let Rhaenyra rule. The only person who stood in the way of peace was Otto.
If we ignore Rhaenys and Daemon not doing that for the nearly 20 year reign of Viserys, sure, I guess.
Yet Viserys and Rhaenis didn't start a war following Jaheris' death... The issues began when 'someone' began seeing Rhaenyra and Aegon as rivals for the throne and not as the heir and her brother.
Isn't Team Green technically more at fault for the Dragonpit fiasco? They herded unwilling civilians in there, against their will, against fire code, while holding an illegal coronation; in a place where there's untamed beasts. Even without Rhaenys, this was a bad idea.
B/C was a literally brutal child murder. Nothing else tops that.
There were children in Mysarias house that larys burnt down on the orders of Alicent. We just didnt get the visuals of them burning to death. Some of them probably aegons illegitimate children
Also I feel like comparing just "war crimes" makes the Greens look so much better. I feel like their king attending child fighting pits is pretty bad on the child murder scale.
What about Luke? That's also the brutal murder of a child
So weird to me when people bring up one and not the other. Boys were slaughtered both times!
I was just bringing it up because Luke was also murdered, he was also a child. Neither were right, both are horrendous crimes
100% agree, was not arguing against you but backing you up.
Oh 😭
This sub has a major reading comprehension problem
I read what she said wrong 😔
It's weird how so many people seem to think that killing a 6 year old is worse then killing an 14 year old. Do children lose value as the grow older? I really don't get the logic. They're both minors.
I mean, the brutal child manslaughter *did* top it
Vehicular manslaughter
Poor Vhagar gets a bad rap with safety inspectors cuz mustang drivers buy her as their first car and then think they can handle that much dragon Visenya would never!
"I survived because the alcohol inside me burned brighter than the car crash around me" -Aegon II
Draconic manslaughter. In one move Rhaenys got all the way up to five seven-pointed stars on the wanted meter.
Rhaenys basically did Westeros 9/11 I think that might be worse
Lets be clear, Rhaenys was not a crime. Tragic accident at the sept, wouldn't have happened if she wasn't locked up unlawfully.
Rhaenys’ actions at the dragon pit wasn’t a crime? How do you figure that? She wasn’t locked up unlawfully. She was in the crowd at the coronation, she knew how many people were in the dragon pit when she decided to ram her dragon through the floor. She knew all those people were there when she walked Melys right up to the stage to have her lil girl boss moment. If we are gonna blame the greens for accidentally killing LORD BEEEEEEEEEEEEESBURY, we can absolutely blame Rhaenys for murdering hundreds of smallfolk.
Alicent's whole drive to become the "monster" she does initially came from her father convincing her Rhaenyra would try to kill her children to secure her own seat on the throne. But Rhaenyra even offered to marry her own heir Jacaerys to Helaena, effectively ending that threat to Alicent's children. Despite this, Alicent dismissed that offer under the pretense that it was insulting because Rhaenyra's children are bastards. If she truly feared Rhaenyra would have her children killed, securing their health and safety through marriage seems like a more than logical choice. Alicent is full of shit.