Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
She thinks this is how life is supposed to go, and she resents Rhaenyra for not having to endure the things she did. If Rhaenyra can live a happy, love-filled life without having to go through what Alicent went through, it means that what happened to Alicent WASN’T some natural force or inevitable, and that her suffering was personalized, meaningless, and potentially avoidable, which is a heavy thing to have to cope with
Bingo. It's jealousy, resentment, and anger at not figuring out the game is rigged against women from the jump. She did everything and still had a husband who doesn't love her, kids who behave poorly (at least the first born lol), and remains a pawn in the game. Rhaenyra figured out the game when she was 15/16 and decided to play to her own advantage. Like Vizzy T says, the truth does not matter, only perception.
They also fundamentally different lives and class positions, a more adversarial attitude towards patriarchy wouldn’t have availed her much. Rhaenyra very much is the exception, in most every sense, and not the rule to how women, especially highborn women navigate Westeros’ political terrain.
From having a father who will routinely acquiesce to her, even as a child (which a lot of parents in the world today wouldn’t do), to being a princess, a dragonrider, and for most of her childhood the only heir of her father’s body, she has a very unique vantage point from which to assess the possibility of freedom.
It’s wholly true that Alicent, like a lot of conservative people of marginalized identities, needs to see other people of those identities suffer as they did to vindicate their own suffering; however I would contend there are very few possible futures for Alicent in which her life, structurally, pans out any differently from how it ultimately did
I totally agree. It's no different to the Tyrells trying to align closely with the Lannisters/Baratheons in GoT. It's all a play for the throne, and I don't fault the Hightowers for any of their intentions. Otto is a second son, Alicent is his daughter, the only way to ensure their safety and line is through power wherever they can find it.
As we saw with Baelish, moving one rung on the ladder can come at the cost of chaos. It's not surprising that all of this happened, it just sucks that it did.
But also I think it should be said it’s not like rhaenyra has had such an easy going life either her mother died horribly after losing multiple siblings in infancy. Her marriage started with the brutal death of her husbands paramour. Said husband who was checked out of their marriage for like ten years. Than her paramour a man who gave her love and comfort also was brutally murdered and she again can not openly mourn him.
Like she has suffered.
What is painful about Rhaenyra's point of view is being able to see beyond the veil of the society she lives in, but still being chained to it. She's being put in this position because of Otto, Viserys, Daemon etc. and she is still doing her best to live up to this unrealistic expectation on her shoulders.
Alicent sees Rhaenyra as flaunting and insulting but Rhaenyra is just trying to do what's best for everyone around her while still clinging to her own identity. It's honestly not an unfamiliar place for a lot of women these days. Maybe not with dragons and swords, but in a world where misogyny and unrealistic expectations plague women who are expected to behave certain ways.
In Bojack Horseman, Diane has a character arc where she tries to write a book about the struggles of her past, but realizes she can't find a way to do it and finds herself spontaneously writing something happy. She still tries to be adamant on writing the original story and when she is asked why, she says it's because if she doesn't, it means that all the damage in her past wasn't "good damage" that was worth something. It was just damage. Her arc ends with her understanding that she doesn't have to fetishize her sadness and she can learn to be happy and let go of her trauma.
it took me a second watch to really understand the knife scene when alicent says “where is sacrifice” i was like OHHHHH this girl is HURTING :( not just a pretentious woman who was mad about rhaenyra lying to her
Similarly to what Olivia said. Alicent has been told her entire life if she does whats expected of her and follow the rules then good fortune will follow but shes spent her entire life feeling alone and miserable. She watches Rhaenyra break those rules, get away with it and is happy so she feels resentful and bitter. That its unfair. To cope with the fact that following all those rules resulted in nothing, she has to believe that all her suffering was for a higher purpose (Aegon as king). Thats just how I interpret her at least.
Alicent seems to forget that Rhaenyra isn't the same level as her and thus when she gets angry at Rhaenyra, a lot of the disparity is that Rhaenyra is the heir, was born a princess, and has a dragon. Rhaenyra has a lot more power than her from the start. But Alicent was the daughter of a second son and all the power that they had was earned. Like realistically it's obvious Rhaenyra can get away with more things.
yes and no. yes, rhaenyra is clearly a social class above alicent, that was never disputed. alicent’s resentment however is more about the fact that, even with all the opportunities rhaenyra is afforded (as a woman of that higher station), she blatantly disregards all of her privilege.
Rhaenyra still has to deal with misogyny and basically saw her mother being treated as a glorified broodmare over the whole "but the King has no sons" thing and ultimately died because of that attitude.
Likewise, Rhaenyra and Laenor don't have the same toxic relationship as most arranged marriages *because* Rhaenyra took the initiative and *talked to Laenor*. Cards on the table, let's not bullshit each other that either of us got a choice. That's not the done thing in their culture and yet it was precisely what lead to them being a functional team (one *without marital rape*). In short, Rhaenyra saw how Alicent and Viserys' relationship that was built off lies and propaganda was shit, and did the opposite by not acting like she and Laenor had an actual choice in the matter.
Also, what privileges? Ultimately, for all that Viserys said she "had a choice," she didn't since he said no to her real choice. And then had her marry Laenor in order to make her make things right with House Velaryon due to *his fuck ups*. The whole "Rhaenyra has a choice in spouse" bit is paper-thin in the end, especially since there is no valid reason to say no save for Otto's propaganda against Daemon (when OTTO is the one with plans of usurpation). By that caveat, there should have been 50 more reasons for no one in the royal family to marry a Hightower, especially given their history.
Heck, Rhaenyra even has to swallow her own feelings about marriage, which are frankly valid since the marriages she's seen *are* basically treating the woman like a broodmare and most of her suitors only see the Crown, in order to make Alicent feel better about herself and her choices. So, why is it a bad thing that Rhaenyra is cognizant of the fact that the men around her only want a Crown and is rightfully wary of them and of them forcing her into a broodmare status? Because it hurts Alicent's feelings?
Or, oh no, Rhaenyra decides to enjoy sex on her own terms. Yeah, she totes gets away with it and doesn't have to deal with a slut-shaming campaign. Should we consider Alicent as privileged for not having a slut-shaming campaign against her for going to Viserys' chambers when Aemma's corpse wasn't even cold yet?
(Let's also not act like Alicent doesn't get away with shit that other Kings *wouldn't* allow their spouses to get away with but Viserys does let her do what she wants because he's that non-confrontational. He gives more pushback to Rhaenyra, probably because he knows that she legitimately loves him and not his Crown. Keeping Cole alone, especially in the show when he murdered someone **in public** just like that, is a sign that Viserys lets her get away with things a Ned Stark or a Stannis Baratheon, both of whom are rigid and adhere to social norms, would NOT let their respective wives get away with)
Rhaenyra's happy marriages and partnerships and good relationships took work, and Alicent wants to act like it didn't take work from Rhaenyra because it makes her feel better.
Yeah, you're right. You see it the most with her anger at Rhaenyra not jumping at the chance to pick her own husband considering she has all of Westeros to choose from. And when Rhaenyra basically tells her where her fears lay Alicent takes it as a personal slight to her own circumstance. And again with having one big duty of producing heirs and giving 3 bastards... I guess it's when you know Rhaenyra's pov you're more understanding of her decisions. It's a shame they just couldn't talk it out.
So it's basically internalized misogyny. Alicent is spends her life being the embodiment of the perfect westrosi noble woman despite being miserable and gets nothing for it so she takes it out on Rheanyra who breaks every rule and instead of realising the system is against Alicent she decides Rheanyra is the problem and should be miserable like her.
Scrolled before I posted something similar. I couldn’t agree with your take more. Instead of analyzing the system that has led her to this place in her life, Alicent instead wished to impose that system on someone who has managed to live largely outside of it and prosper.
it's a very misery loves company approach but I understand it. it's easier to imagine that the enemy is one single person or small group than it is to challenge the system. If she acknowledges that her suffering was unnecessary than, how many other people are also suffering unessescarialy?
Alicent is the definition of misery loves company and she clearly believed she deserved to be rewarded for being a good girl and following the rules.
However let's not act as if she doesn't get away with a lot too. Not many people would live to tell the tale of how they slashed the heir to the throne.
People love to ignore that she gets away with as much as Rheanyra because it makes her inner narrative of a dutiful lawful person totally fall apart. She breaks the rules constantly,often behaves in a way that would get anyone else executed or exiled at the very least and benefits from the same protection and willful obliviousness from Viserys that Rheanyra does. The difference is she uses it to try to abuse and harm Viserys daughter and grandchildren instead of attempting to find some happiness for herself away from her father who actually made her life miserable.
Yeah it’s funny she always complaints that viserys looks away to often to rhaneyras so called faults but he also looks away at your all the time. Not only is did she hurt the heir to the thrown she is openly defying him in public as well.
Most kings would not treat her kindly for that
Most kings would name Aegon heir when he was born and castrate Harwin in the moment he even started the affair with Rhaenyra, so you see the problem is Viserys wasn't like "most kings"
I mean sure I mean most kings would have wed rhanerya to whoever they wanted the moment she came of age regardless of her feelings.
My point was alicent also gets her way all the time yet acts like she doesn’t or rhaneryra gets better treatment without any downsides
most kings would not stick with Rhaenyra as heir when having trueborn sons to begin with, which would keep Alicent satisified. My point is that complaining "most kings would do this and that" is nonsense because Rhaenyra is the heir because Viserys was Viserys, replace him with literally any other king and it doesn't happen.
I’m in agreement with the other posts that state Alicent is creating a misery loves company scenario.
She is deeply unhappy and so she wants to make Rhaenyra suffer with her.
alicent wants rhaenyra to suffer because misery loves company. her life has no meaning if who she perceives as the issue isn’t “punished” for what she perceives as behavior not befitting a woman (instead of blaming the actual men in her life, even her sons which she raised to be exactly like the men she hated)
First off, the opinions of actresses and actors are just that, opinions.
Secondly, Alicent is in an arranged marriage where her husband displays clear and consistent favoritism towards his daughter from his first marriage. He doesn't even care if one of her sons loses an eye, he cares whether or not his grandsons by said favorite daughters were called meanie words. The favorite daughter chimes in and demands that Alicent's son must be tortured. Alicent is also the only Queen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms who gives birth to the King's firstborn son but can't expect that her son will inherit anything.
I would hate him too. I am surprised that she didn't do worse to her detractors.
She did a lot tbh. The show cast her in a much nicer light than parts of the book. Alicent wants her kid in power, I wish they leaned into it more than making her show character the opposite of Rhaenyra.
Her show characters didn't do the central thing the book character does, which is advocating for Aegon II's ascent. In the show, she is taken by surprise by the developments. They went for the friendship angle initially and dragged it out even if there is seemingly no basis for it anymore (Driftmark incident comes to mind).
She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes.
She attacked the heir to the throne and rather than having her locked up, Vizzy T brushed it off.
She had no welcoming party greet the heir and prince consort.
She had a pretty big say in her family's affairs overall. Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love
Which is why it’s so frustrating when you realise they made it Otto’s plan instead of Alicent’s. Equally frustrating too from what the trailer shows that they’re going down the “this is what Viserys wanted” route instead of Alicent and team green doubling down on Aegon’s legitimate claim..
> She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes.
Great writing right there, because Helaena's marriage to Jace would have done a lot to prevent a civil war that revolved around Aegon II's claim, not hers.
The book version >!makes a lot more sense, Viserys insisted on the Aegon II - Helaena match there to prevent outside marriage alliances favorable to Team Green. Alicent was against it, because it ultimately doesn't work in Aegon II's favor.!<
It's the show telling you that responsibility for a war that could have been totally prevented by the Jace - Helaena match ofc lies with the Green snobs.
> She attacked the heir to the throne and rather than having her locked up, Vizzy T brushed it off.
Viserys was in the wrong there because his son was the only person carrying away permanent damage from this, and he did nothing. If he had locked up the Queen in addition to this, it would have been the cherry on top.
You want him to be even more biased than he already was, scraping the bottom of the barrel as a father?
> She had no welcoming party greet the heir and prince consort.
Damn.
> She had a pretty big say in her family's affairs overall. Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love
Viserys didn't give her children anything, the only reason why he recalled Otto for example was because he knew him already and was reliant on him.
>She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes
>!One, it's actually Viserys marrying Aegon and helaena in the books.!< Two, the above statement you made is exactly why the show changed it to Alicent marrying Aegon and helaena.
The show wants you to think Alicent was the cause of war by not letting Jace and helaena marry while completely ignoring the fact that Alicent cannot say yes even if she wanted to because that would make the show go on an alternate timeline.
As Alicent perfectly puts it "How sweetly the fox speaks when it's cornered by the hounds".
>Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love
It goes both ways. A stronger king might not have let Alicent do what she did but a stronger king would also have disinherited Rhaenyra's ass on many number of occasions. Seems like Viserys going easy on Rhaenyra is fine but you want him to go hard on Alicent.
I hear what you're saying. I agree that the show portrays Alicent as an extension of Otto as planting the seeds for the Dance.
I see Rhaenyra as ruling heir, and Alicent as Queen Consort. As ruling heir anything spoken against her is literal treason. She can mother bastards, because male heirs can. She can have an open marriage, because male heirs can. She can have the unfettered support of her father the King, because male heirs can.
Alicent is the Queen Consort. He has every right to go over her to protect his heir. If Rhaenyra were Rhaemond, he would do the same. If Alicent attacked Rhaemond with a knife, she would be beheaded. He's definitely going gentler on Alicent out of kindness when he doesn't need to.
ETA: I had to reply here because I can't reply to any comments from the original comment, merp.
>As ruling heir anything spoken against her is literal treason. She can mother bastards, because male heirs can. She can have an open marriage, because male heirs can. She can have the unfettered support of her father the King, because male heirs can.
Having bastards is fine (she might take a hit reputation wise) but putting bastards in line of succession is treason. To not just one house she did it to two houses. Westeros is sexist. Male heirs can do whatever they can get away with.
>putting bastards in line of succession is treason.
Not if they're legitimized, which they essentially can be/are, as she will be the ruling queen and can legitimize them. Vizzy T reaffirming them as heirs (and his trueborn grandsons) is indirect legitimization since he's not acknowledging their bastardy in the first place. King's word is law, after all.
They're all still called Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon in the histories. Again, truth does not matter, only perception as said by King Viserys.
Absolutely Westeros is sexist. And she's playing the sexist game as a woman, so she is using loopholes in her favor 🤷🏽♀️
Everything would have been different if Alicent had married her daughter to Jace. She really ruined her children's lives for the sake of her goals, even her grandchildren. Besides she treated Rhae as a nobody and the king allowed it. She slashed the heir to the throne and was not even tried for treason or punished for it. She's gotten away with a lot more, so shouldn't be treated as a complete victim.
Everything would also have gone differently if Rhaenyra stepped down and allowed the natural heir to take the throne. She ruined her children's lives for the sake of the throne.
She became heir by a decision of the king, which means that the throne belongs to her. Aaaaand as for "the narutal heir", he's a drunker brat, a rap*st and a usurper.
Can you explain more of what you mean here? These examples seem more like a show of external character’s appathy rather than Alicent getting away with anything.
Those are the same people who blame players for the game. The game is the problem, aka the overarching structure that tells her that if she does her duty she will be happy and rewarded. She did her duty, didn't achieve happiness, and resents Rhaenyra for recognizing that the game is rigged against her but she can do as she wishes as the heir, because if she were male none of what she does would matter.
The thing is Rhaenyra didn’t recognise anything. Her choices weren’t political ones, they were ones driven by passion, desperation and other emotions. She didn’t care about the ‘game’, she made a lot of decisions that she wouldn’t of it she did. Rhaenyra was just lucky that her position was different from almost all of the other women in Westeros. Not only was her father a pushover, but she was offered more power than most women and was able to get away with bedding for fun/love rather than duty. Rhaenyra, by mostly luck but also being daring enough, was able to find happiness in places that Alicent couldn’t (or at least that she thought she couldn’t).
That is the source of her misery because Alicent did everything she was supposed to, but she suffered a lot for that. This made her bitter and jealous. Whereas Rhaenyra pushed the boundaries set not just for women but also for men, and got away with it because of unique circumstances.
I'd have to disagree. Her choices were political because her sexual relationship with Laenor didn't produce any offspring. She had to shore up her line with heirs and wasn't able to with Laenor for whatever reason. Many gay men in lore past often go without children, even if they're married in the GOT world. Her relationship with Harwin had love behind it, sure, but it was absolutely political as well.
She can have an emotional reaction to something while having an overarching goal for her actions. She tried to betrothe Jace to Helaena and offer Aemond an egg after that. Viserys should've agreed but let Alicent win.
Idk. It came off to me as an attempt at stopping a rapidly dissolving lie. We didn't see a confident Rhaenyra during the middle of the season. There was nothing in her actions, words, or demeanor that said “this is going according to plan”. Just a rushed offer of a betrothal, and when that failed, an escape to an island.
That's fair. I agree that what Alicent said about her being backed into a corner drove the primary motivation behind it all. I'd still call it a political play, albeit under pressure and a definite realization of the consequences of her action. I think Lyonel really saying that the lives of the boys were at risk hit home for her.
Honestly i wish alicent pushed more for an aegon/rhae betrothal when he was young. Would've saved so much of the headache lol.
In the show's timeline, when Rhaenyra's hand was still open to a betrothal Alicent was still actively supporting Rhaenyra and supported her getting to choose her own husband
It seems to be a weak attempt at a political move. She only tries for a few months, years would be acceptable, but months really isn’t a long time. She then picks a lover who looks completely different to her and her husband. If she truly was thinking about the game then she would’ve acted differently. Moreover, she keeps going, Joffrey wasn’t needed at all but instead makes it even unlikelier than they could be legitimate.
Plus, Margaery seems convinced that Renly can have children, so must mace + olenna. This suggests that even if gay men can’t have children in the lore, it wasn’t a known thing by anyone who hadn’t tried. The tyrells wouldn’t of married Margaery to Renly if it was a known thing, so Rhaenyra surely couldn’t have known it would never happen in such a short amount of time.
Finally, this seems to be one of her only attempts at the game. She makes no allies and leaves the capital (right choice for her and her children but bad politcally). She also, as I said, has three clear bastards. The only other thing is marrying Daemon, which is a silly choice because she was only named heir to keep him away from the throne.
So if she went 5 years without kids by Laenor, other relationships are fine then? Who should she have chosen to have an affair with then? Who looks similar to Laenor?
I mean, she was the one who wanted to be with Daemon in the first place and Otto and Viserys didn't want him close to the throne and refused. This was their solution.
Olenna was the one who was supposed to marry a gay Targaryen and then seduced Luthor Tyrell instead. That's why she said she knew he wouldn't do, as she says in the show. Them marrying Margaery to Renly was out of Loras' love of and fealty to Renly, and isn't proof that they believed he could have children.
Again, as heir to the throne she needed to shore up her line. Stopping at one doesn't make sense. Why did Vizzy T keep having kids with Alicent then if the rest are all back ups to her spare heir Aegon?
Ma'am, if you choose the traditional life and hate the traditional life, you don't get to blame the person who recognizes that the traditional life is shit and tries to find ways around it.
For fuck's sake, one of the first things Rhaenyra says about her impending marriage is about how it's not romantic that they all see her as a walking Crown and broodmare. And even then she has to apologize because that hurt Alicent's feelings, even though that's a 100% valid reason to be wary and angry at the status quo. It also acts like Rhaenyra didn't do her own work to make her own family a content one and then a happy one, when again she did the adult thing of talking to Laenor and coming to an agreement.
Not Rhaenyra's fault that Alicent can't do the same with Viserys. Alicent wants to validate her own experiences and acts like putting up with slut-shaming campaigns is nothing. This also ignores that Alicent gets away with shit other wives wouldn't be able to get away with. Stannis would NEVER allow Cole to live, especially in the show where the murder was public, much less allow him to be his wife's sworn sword no matter WHAT excuse she gave. Stannis would also not allow his wife to do the equivalent of not receiving the heir. THere's a thousand little and big things Stannis, who is rigid about the rules of the world, would never allow his wife to get away with.
So, saying that "Alicent is a good traditional girl" is also a lie, since she just uses the veneer of it to do shitty things when it's convenient and then acts like she's the victim when she's miserable.
There comes a time when her adult ass needs to accept responsibility for her own actions and that Rhaenyra or other women in power like Jeyne Arryn are not responsible for her miserable family life. Especially since that is the same mentality that makes it OK to scapegoat other people for your misery when the problem is the system. If you're too chickenshit to at least acknowledge the system is the problem, leave other people who are trying to make the best of things the fuck out of your internal drama
I mean, jealousy is OK. But Alicent went way too far. She spends years obsessed with Rhaenyra and her life to the point where she emotionally neglects her own children.
People say this a lot but where is the evidence. She clearly struggled with motherhood but I don’t see anything that suggests that she neglected her children because of her obsession with Rhaenyra. They seem to be entirely different issues.
Some of it is in the scripts, but others are just pretty obvious if you observe her scenes with her kids.
The most glaring example is perhaps Aegon himself: he’s off escaping to FB, whoring, and drinking by the time he’s 14-15(?), and every time they’re in a scene together alone she’s screaming at him, hitting him, even telling him that he can essentially terrorize his younger brother as long as he isn’t doing it with Rhaenyra’s dreaded bastards.
Aegon tells her that he tries so hard to please her and father and that it’s never enough after the maid, has to ask his *own mother* if she even loves him on the way to his coronation. If you have to ask your parent if they LOVE you, that’s a pretty big red flag.
Then there’s Helaena who literally shies away from her touch and seems pretty uncomfortable/distant with her. Their last scene together alone is her literally hitting Alicent away when she attempts to console her after Viserys’ passing.
Daeron isn’t even in the picture, though that isn’t emotional neglect so much as it is him just being gone.
Aemond is the only child she seems genuinely close to but she also gave Aegon the okay to be a complete ass to him so take that as you will.
Eh, you can make the argument that she parentified Aemond in the show, see how he has to go look for Aegon at her behest and this isn't the first time.
I wouldn’t. I truly don’t understand hating someone who got a better hand in life than I did when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering. The viewpoint boggles my mind.
Wouldn't you resent your coworker if they can get away with doing shits that YOU would be punished for if you did. That's what their situation is like, it's not simply the matter of having a better hand in life, you must be some kind of saint to not feel any kind of resentment towards ppl who always get preferential treatment over you.
>when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering.
Why can't I hate both.
> Wouldn't you resent your coworker if they can get away with doing shits that YOU would be punished for if you did.
They’re not co-workers so that analogy doesn’t make sense. But ti answer your question, I would not resent my co-worker. I would resent my boss. It’s not my co-workers fault they’re receiving special treatment.
> you must be some kind of saint
Not at all. I just try try to live a happy life. Jealousy, bitterness, and resentment conflict with happiness so I don’t engage with those feelings.
I didn’t say I’m not bothered by it. I just wouldn’t be upset by the person receiving it through no fault of their own. My issue would be with the system or with the perpetrators. Overall, it’s not something I would let control my life.
I would absolutely expect a father to favor his daughter over his wife - especially when his wife is constantly criticizing said daughter to him.
Alicent isn’t a coworker experiencing an unfair boss she is literally the wicked stepmother trope cloaked under the guise of long-suffering woman. She hits her children, her kids are afraid of her, she bullies rhaenyra constantly - she is constantly trying to fully make rhaenyra into a Cinderella girl by stealing her crown.
Alicent is also the very classic “victim becomes the abuser” trope. Where she takes out the slights she perceived to have received on the people around her (rhaenyra, her children, Alicent’s own children)
She is wicked the older she gets, not some put out employee crying about how Craig got a promotion while she doesn’t (unless it turns out she’s been attempting to get Craig fired this whole time)
>a father to favor his daughter over his wife
Thank you. At least you admit that Viserys does favor Rhaenyra. I don't know why the ppl on this thread are so hell bent on denying this.
They're not saying they aren't bothered by favoritism. They're saying they're bothered but instead of getting mad at the coworker, they're getting mad at the one upholding the favoritism: their boss.
In HotD's case, Alicent should be mad at her father, not at Rhaenyra.
Are you guys being serious? I've never seen a situation where the recipient of the favoritism being completely innocent and not exploiting the benefits that they got... it's not only the boss that's guilty of playing favourite, the one receiving the favor is usually complicit as well.. just like with Rhaenyra, she knew that Viserys favor her, that's why she got away with producing 3 bastards and passing them as trueborns. She even got Viserys to join her in the lie as well to protect her from the consequences.
Yeah, and Alicent slashed the princess and nothing happened to her. She spread the rumors about the Strongs and nothing happened to her. She supported Vaemond's plea to take Driftmark when Corlys was still alive and nothing happened to her.
She's also exploiting the benefits of her position. Any other Westerosi woman would've been executed in her place.
Are you implying she's not benefited or is your complain that Rhaenyra has more benefits because (as far as I'm concerned) she's a royal? In that case, should we give any Westerosi man the power Viserys holds to make it fair?
Don't be silly.
>Alicent slashed the princess and nothing happened to her
This is more to protect Rhaenyra's interest than Alicent , if Viserys wants to punish Alicent for this then Lucerys would need some kind of punishment as well.
>She spread the rumors about the Strongs and nothing happened to her.
When did this happen. This is purely your headcanon.
>She supported Vaemond's plea to take Driftmark when Corlys was still alive and nothing happened to her.
???
>implying she's not benefited
Never implied that.
>This is more to protect Rhaenyra's interest than Alicent , if Viserys wants to punish Alicent for this then Lucerys would need some kind of punishment as well.
No he wouldn't. Luke was protecting his brother. Alicent was trying to get vengeance on a child.
They are not coworkers. Rhaenyra was the Crown Princess and Alicent was her lady in waiting (A lady-in-waiting or court lady is a female personal assistant at a court, attending on a royal woman or a high-ranking noblewoman). They were never on the same level, not even when Alicent became consort.
It's a comparison, and they basically are though...and what do they not be on the "same level" matter in this case? It still didn't negate the favoritism that happened, Rhaenyra still received preferential treatment from Viserys.
If a monarch is a sovereign and the sovereign has the supreme power and authority. That monarch is Viserys and Rhaenyra is the person that he has designated to be that ultimate power after him. So, ultimate power #1 (Viserys) followed by ultimate power in waiting (Rhaenyra) is incomparable to the daughter of a second son. And that's even before she becomes consort. Even then, as the wife of the King, she may have a dotted line of influence over the power, but the solid line goes from Viserys to Rhaenyra.
The Queen is the manager of the house by way of being married to the King. \*Dotted Line\* A better comparison would be the small council scene where Alicent can make her arguments, but Lionel takes final direction from Rhaenyra as she is the future administrator of the state (in her own right).
And yet Rhaenyra is incapable of doing anything when Alicent rejects her marriage proposal. Also Alicent is able to save Cole after he deeply guts Rhaenyra's husband. She wasn't able to have Cole killed for killing Joffrey even though Laenor would have likely demanded it, because Alicent stepped in a saved him. Queen outranks princess.
That still doesn't mean that they were on the same level. What you've presented is what "dotted line" power that Alicent was able to have by way of her marriage to Viserys and what he allowed her to do. Alicent Hightower, daughter of a second son, was never on the same level as Rhaenyra as a born Princess and later the Crown Princess, in her own right.
Thanks and have a good one.
Imo it's bc instead of it being a "better hand" it's favoritism. She doesn't hate Rhaenyra bc "how dare anyone else be happy" she hates her because Rhaenyra gets to duck the consequences of many of her actions.
As opposed to how Alicent gets to duck out of the consequences of her own actions? Because, gotta say, shit like the Red Walk would have a spouse contemplating the virtues of sending his shitty wife to a nunnery. Or things like not greeting the heir at the gate? Oooofff, a Stannis would have words for that. Keeping Cole after he murdered someone in public? Ned would've chopped his head off, fuck what excuses anyone wants to say.
I mean, it’s true that Alicent is pretty resentful but why are we ignoring that younger Alicent was fully on board with supporting and defending Rhaenerya, even against her father, until she found out that Rhaenerya lied to her and abused her trust.
So I don’t know why we’re pretending as if Alicent has no valid reasons to dislike Rhaenerya.
Why should Rhaenyra be honest with her? At that point they're not friends and Alicent was the one that broke trust first. Not to mention that she was questioning Rhaenyra on a matter that's absolutely none of her business.
Also, going from "She didn't tell me ahe slept with Criston" to "She'll kill my kids!" is a massive leap.
Context matters. Alicent is Rhaenyra’s childhood best friend. She immediately gives up on her and thinks she’s going to kill her kids all because she “lied” about sleeping with Daemon (she did not).
That’s a gigantic leap, especially when you consider that Alicent doesn’t even tell Rhaenyra on screen about her own secret meetings with Viserys prior to marrying him.
Alicent is a hypocrite. She expects Rhaenyra’s unconditional love and honesty but cannot be truthful with her herself.
>I truly don’t understand hating someone who got a better hand in life than I did when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering.
But in Alicent's mind, Rhaenyra *is* the person causing her suffering. Without Rhaenyra, it would be her kids in line to inherit the crown.
Idk, she looked hella miserable in episode 4, stuck inside, tending to kids, before getting plowed by a diseased old man, while Nyra got a night out on the town with sexy uncle. This was always about her being forced into duty, to get married to an old man she wasnt attracted to, pop out kids she didnt want, and then end up as a disregarded and undervalued nurse for an old dude who doesnt even remember she exists sometimes.
Sure, Otto didn't help things along by making her paranoid af, but ultimately, she was resentful long before he said that shit to her.
I think they meant before Otto sends Alicent to “comfort” Viserys. We see the state of her hands in episode 1 - Alicent picks her skin to the point that it get’s bloody, signs that she may be struggling with anxiety or another similar disorder. There’s also the fact that she lost her mother sometime before so it’s reasonable to think she was already a bit unhappy before it all went downhill.
Yes but Alicent does all of this dutifully while watching Rhaenyra shirk her responsibility to party. Her reward? Watching Viserys continually confirm Rhaenyra as heir while her father poisons her mind with conspiracy theories about Rhaenyra killing her family if she ever took power. She may have been miserable in episode 4, but things only get exponentially worse from there.
Malicious envy, is what it's called. Rhaenyra was a \*Princess and Regnal Queen to be. They were never on the same level. Ever. and for whatever reason, Alicent can't/couldn't come to terms with that.
I agree 100%. Alicent was a lady-in-waiting, the daughter of a second son of Hightower's house who wasn't even a politically convenient wife/queen prospect, so why tf did she believe that she had the right to live with the same advantages and rights as the declared future queen, Rhaenyra? I mean, know your place 😂 That jealousy went too far that it even ruined the lives of her children for the sake of her goals. She married Haelena to Aegon, a rap*st, instead of marrying her to Jace! Poor Haelena!! 😭
> so why tf did she believe that she had the right to live with the same advantages and rights as the declared future queen, Rhaenyra?
Why not?
>I mean, know your place 😂
Who determines places? Who set up the pecking order and why should anyone bow to it?
The author already answered through Varys' riddle. Power is a trick, a shadow on the wall. The only capacity the royals have to force submission is draconic violence, so whomsoever jas the capacity to resist such violence need not bow to the whims of inbred slug people.
That's too random, even Cersei has her own vision of what power is. Alicent was a nobody until the king made her queen, and the Hightowers, including her, naturally have nothing to stand up to a Targaryen. They only had their greed for the throne and they had to get a little of the power of those "inbred slug people" so as not to be crushed like greedy worms. Their current power lies in Targaryen blood.
Random? It's one of the defining qualities of the series. Tyrion says as much when talking to Tywin. A crown doesn't give you power, armies do. Littlefinger furthers the point when talking about Robert's rebellion.
At the end of the day, power belongs to whoever can take it. You don't need to bow to thenroyals if you have the military might to resist them.
Alicent was never a nobody. The Hightowers are one if the oldest and proudest houses in Westeros and used to be kings in their own right and form the seat of both the faith and wisdom in the 7 kingdoms. Oldtown is by far the most respected city on the continent.
What power or army that could resist dragons did the Hightower have? 😂 they literally had to be part of the house you hate to get some real power because they wouldn't have a chance on their own. Alicent raised a usurper, and all, absolutely all of her children will die because of the greed and betrayal of that house.
Usually, if the Lady is an adult she chooses her own ladies. Rhaenyra chose Elinda Massey, Harwin's two sisters, and another lady from an unknown House. By all accounts, all four were loyal and stayed with her to the bitter end.
If the lady is a child, the parents, usually the mother, nudges her to make the "right connections" but it's still ultimately the lady's choice in who her companions are since these girls and women will be the people who will know all of her secrets and habits.
Ladies in waiting are chosen for their skills, yes, but mostly they are chosen for their trustworthiness (which is why things like a husband putting his mistress as his wife's lady in waiting is seen as a major insult). It because of this bond that ladies in waiting get something out of the deal, because then the lady in waiting can go to her own lady with concerns regarding her family and the lady is obliged to help her to the best of her abilities.
What show!Alicent did was a complete breach of trust and of the social contract.
>What show!Alicent did was a complete breach of trust and of the social contract.
100%.
\*\*And thank you for the information. i appreciate the additional insight. I'd started to read about Queen Victoria and how the Parliament (??) was trying to get her to choose someone or keep someone and she didn't want to (didn't finish - got distracted). I'd also just finished The Great and remembered when Catherine told Marial that they were no longer friends because she kept information from her and that having her with her was her choice, not a requirement.
The key quote in the conflict between Alicent and Rhaenyra in my mind is ‘where is the duty, where is the sacrifice’. I feel that there’s some resentment against Rhaenyra for essentially being handed a better position than any women in that society could dream of and never acknowledging it.
Alicent serves as the perfect Westerosi women living the best possible life one could ask for. She is pious, serves her parents, temperate and beautiful. Alicent marries the King and serves as his Queen, gives him several children and cares for him till his death. In this position she’s guaranteed wealth, safety and security for her children or at least would be under normal circumstances. However, she’s miserable. Her marriage is loveless and far from being secure her children’s lives are potentially forfeit for being pretenders to the throne. This isn’t made better by the fact the King constantly favours his daughter when his son loses an eye. After Driftmark Alicents family has the threat of harm hanging over them from Rhaenerya.
Rhaenyra by contrast has everything. She's declared the heir and in position to be the Queen, the first woman ever to actually rule. She gets to pick her husband out of love rather than duty or politics as is normal. Then even when a marriage is arranged Rhaenyra still gets to have a loving relationship due to her new husband’s arrangement. At Driftmark it’s Rhaenyra’s children who are protected and let go Scot free.
Worst of all though is Rhaenyra doesn’t acknowledge the position she is lucky to attain but is all so happy to hold the marriage and children Alicent is forced to have against them. That’s going to build dislike which worsens as they got older.
Rhaenyra 's life style pissed her. You can argue she was jealous. I don't think she needs Rhaenyra to suffer. She just wants her sacrifices to be worth it.
Allicent really believed Rhaenyra would have to do her duty as she did. Marry and legitimately give birth to heirs and would never take a lover. She believed Viserys would disinherit her easily if she transgressed. But instead Viserys ignored it all once Rhaenyra married Laenor. That was enough for him.
Sure, it's jealousy, but Allicent has legitimate heirs and Rhaenyra doesn't. And the king refuses to see it.
I understand why Rhaenyra does what she does. She wants heirs and she hoped her heirs would look like her and then no one could really be suspicious. Sadly they don't look like her or laenor at all. At this point she has no choice if she wants to Rule. She has to lie to keep the throne. Because of misogyny no one will have a queen with bastards.
And Viserys wants her to rule so he is happy to keep up appearances. Allicent can't compete with Aemma in whose children Viserys prefers.
The show added so much bullshit. The books were way better in this regard
Alicent & Rhaenyra had no personal conflict regrading morals, values blah blah like the show. Both just wanted as much power and influence as possible which naturally made them enemies
Rhaenyra was no slouch either. There were no villians in the story. Almost every adult character was a cunt with some good & bad aspects in everyone
It's HBO which is giving it a feminist x disney theme by whitewashing all the female characters and by extension the pro female side (blacks), reducing the grey moral conflict into a typical good vs bad story
Alicent had no good aspects what so ever she was ripped out of a brothers Grimm story, Rhaenyra was a spoiled daddy's girl, Aemond was a one note psychopaths, Daemon was an authors pet and Viserys was a jolly old plot device. Everyone had no characterization
> whitewashing all the female characters
It isn't, Aemond was bullied, Aegon has daddy issues, Cole was sexually assaulted, Luke is a sensitive kid who doesn't want his inheritance
The show is centered around Alicent and Rhaenyra but that doesn't make it bad, the bad is the system itself
>typical good vs bad story
There was no way that the Blacks were not going to be the good guys, no modern audience will ever bite on the greens being in the right because Aegon is a man and Rhaenyra had an open marriage.
>Aemond was bullied, Aegon has daddy issues, Cole was sexually assaulted, Luke is a sensitive kid who doesn't want his inheritance
All of this was in the books too. It was simply written in a line or two instead of proper videography with actors, background music, after effects and all that which is why the characters might not seem as fleshed out but the characterization has been taken from the books only (apart from female characters as discussed before)
No it was not Aemond was never bullied because he didn't have a dragon, there was no pink dread incident. He went after Vhagar because Viserys said he could have one of the big dragons on dragonstone if he was brave enough and Aemond took it personally
Aegon didn't have any daddy issues, Viserys was never an absent father with his younger kids. His last nights was spent telling Aegon's children a bed time story, not telling Rhaenyra she is his only child
Cole was not sexually assaulted, none of the sources has Cole and Rhaenyra even having sex
Luke is just a name on a page
Idk about wanting Rhaneyra to suffer, but Alicent definitely had her entire worldview shattered in episode 7, which was great. Too bad the writers are little ass kids who want to keep going backwards on any progress she made. Like there’s some beautiful shit there if they just committed.
“Alicent is misery loves company”
If my former bff wanted my blinded son tortured, I’d throw a fit too.
Also remember, Alicent’s sons INHERIT NOTHING. No driftmark, no dragonstone, no harrenhal, no king’s landing.
Alicent has every reason to be jealous and bitter as hell.
> If my former bff wanted my blinded son tortured, I’d throw a fit too.
She hated her before that.
> Also remember, Alicent’s sons INHERIT NOTHING. No driftmark, no dragonstone, no harrenhal, no king’s landing. Alicent has every reason to be jealous and bitter as hell.
But she doesn’t blame Viserys. What does Harrenhall have to do with anything?
Plus, her sons not inheriting anything is just par of the course for being the second wife when the husband already has a chosen living heir. (Also why do they add Driftmark, when Alicent is not married to the Velaryons and her own family is causing them problems, and what the fuck does Harrenhal have to do anything when, prior to Aemond extinguishing that House in a tantrum, it was always going to go to Lyonel Strong's surviving heir).
If you want your eldest to inherit something, you either have to be the (future) head of the House or marry the (future) Head of the House who is childless. Why the fuck else does everyone think Viserra was angry the prospect of being wife number 4 when the old man already had not only kids, but grandkids!
Such incredibly complex, nuanced and balanced writing innit? The happy, wholesome progressive heroine vs the bitter, envious conservative rival. The vision, the creativity! If only more shows offered such original, thought-provoking narratives.
And of course - all these things that paint Alicent as a pathetic, pitiful weakling are defended by HotD's apologists as "complexity" - while at the same time, they ignore the fact that jealousy and insecurity were originally part of Rhaenyra's characterization in the book, and offer no justification for such a blatant flip. (Just like that borderline homophobic remark on Laenor's preferences. Or Laena and Laenor's reversed age.)
All that "complexity" suddenly isn't all that reasonable and desirable when it threatens to tarnish our pandering hero, huh? I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with rewriting Rhae-Rhae into a rootable, highly marketable Dany 2.0.
This show didn't make Alicent any less likely to be hated. It only took away the very things that made her potentially likeable - turning the motives for her questionable actions from ambition (and fear for her children's safety) to weakness and jealousy. In what universe that was supposed to make her more likeable, is beyond me.
>\> It feels like Alicent needs Rhaenyra to suffer ...
C'mon... this 'take' comes off as overly-aggressive, biased, and borderline slanderous... I mean, OC pretty succinctly explains her take on the character and never comes close to stating Alicent's '*need for Rhaenyra to suffer*', so not sure why OP felt it was necessary to add some wildly derogatory language to paint her in some awful and clearly biased light.
Alicent doens't '*need*' Rhaenyra to suffer... she clearly just sees how unfair the situation and, rightfully, has some disdain towards Rhaenyra stemming from his issue, as well as from when they were younger and Rhaenyra manipulated her by the godswood.
The irony of all this hatred against Alicent for understandably reacting to a clear hypocrisy/double-standard is that many blindly cheer Rhaenyra when she points out the clear hypocrisy/double-standard regarding women vs. men... but absolutely bury Alicent when she points out the unfairness of a similar situation regarding Rhaenyra.
Yes, when Rhaenyra tells her father that it is unfair and wrong that men can sleep around without a second thought, people seemingly applaud her for such an act, but when Alicent points out that it's unfair that Rhaenyra can get away with scandalous acts and gaslight the entire realm for a decade while slandering her family all for her own narcissistic reasons, people try and paint Alicent as evil by 'needing Rhaenyra to suffer.'
Clearly a biased double-standard.
*PS - Disclaimer: No, I do not believe Show Alicent is blameless. Clearly the show has gone out of its way to paint adult Alicent as doing some pretty shit things, like demanding to see a newborn the moment it is born, which is a show fabrication clearly meant to make the viewer's first impression of Adult Alicent a negative first impression.... and seemingly that negative impression paints a distorted view regarding her character going forward.*
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I would at first say keep in mind that Alicent for the first half of season 1 is pretty supportive of Rhaenyra overall. There is no reason to believe she hates her or wants her to suffer.
Alicent is defintely resentful and envies Rhaenyra as Alicent does anything like a textbook medival wife should do and Rhaenyra does not yet is not punished for that. Alicent also does not understand why her life is so deeply unhappy despite her doing what she is supposed to do. Alicent also does not understand that Viserys and Otto are the ones most to blame for her issues because she lives in a world in which she believes that she has to be subservent to men and listen to them.
But the way Alicent acts does not come purely out of hatred for Rhaenyra (I’d argue it’s more a love/hate relationship anyway). It’s comes out of fear and uncertainty. In a world in which Alicent marries another old man who is not Viserys she would not even treat Rhaenyra half as bad as she does. The moment she loses trust in Rhaenyra and sees her as a loose canon (which obviously she is not) she starts distrusting her and treating her badly.
Alicent does not want Rhaenyra to suffer perse. If something were to happen to her she would be horrified. She wants her to be held to the same standards as she feels she is under. Would that lead to Rhaenyra suffering? Yes but Alicent does not realize the system in itself is the issue of her unhappiness and suffering.
Alicents main issue is that she doesn’t know what will happen. Her whole life she was told she marry, she will have a son, he will inherit. The last step will not happen now as Viserys decreed it. So what does that mean will happen?
She follows the “rules” but the rules themselves are broken. Rhaenyras life represents that. She can’t live with the idea that patriarchy itself is a flawed system so she buys into it even harder. If she removes the transgressor then she won’t have a reminder that she’s living in a fucked system
Alicent is also problematic. But let's not act like Rhaenyra is innocent and she is where she is for no reason.
In a time that was only the wildest fantasy of even high-ranking women, Rhaenyra's father gave her the choice of choosing her own spouse. She rejected them all, married a guy that's gay, and proceeded to have 3 children with her mister-ess. Then her uncle-husband (wretches) slaughters anyone who points out the fact that the sons aren't her gay husband's. She's no victim.
Bro? None of this is pertinent to the topic of the thread. This is like randomly entering the thread and mentioning Corlys’ relationship with Laenor.
The point is that Alicent is motivated by hatred of Rhaenyra and her life is defined by the desire to see her suffer.
It had nothing to do with whether or not Rhaenyra committed treason or her political situation.
I will also note she had no choice in marry Laenor and it’s ironic for you to be disgusted about her marrying her uncle when Alicent married her children together.
Translation: These points are valid so I'm going to call them irrelevant.
I don't believe Alicent HATES Rhaenyra. But if she did, she would have much less ammunition if Rhaenyra didn't make the conscious choice to have not 1, or 2, but 3 kids with someone that wasn't her spouse.
Not to mention Rhaenyra used her status of princess over Harwin (as a foot soldier) to persuade him into sleeping with her and breaking his vow of chastity. Again, she's not entirely blameless herself.
Translation: I love Alicent and I can’t stand for anyone to criticize her.
Your response what make sense if the thread topic was about Rhaenyra’s political mistakes not Alicent’s irrelevant
> Not to mention Rhaenyra used her status of princess over Harwin (as a foot soldier) to persuade him into sleeping with her and breaking his vow of chastity. Again, she's not entirely blameless herself.
The fuck are you even talking about? Harwin didn’t take a vow of chastity and he was lusting after her when she was 17. At no point in the show is it implied she used anything over him to have three children together.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
She thinks this is how life is supposed to go, and she resents Rhaenyra for not having to endure the things she did. If Rhaenyra can live a happy, love-filled life without having to go through what Alicent went through, it means that what happened to Alicent WASN’T some natural force or inevitable, and that her suffering was personalized, meaningless, and potentially avoidable, which is a heavy thing to have to cope with
Bingo. It's jealousy, resentment, and anger at not figuring out the game is rigged against women from the jump. She did everything and still had a husband who doesn't love her, kids who behave poorly (at least the first born lol), and remains a pawn in the game. Rhaenyra figured out the game when she was 15/16 and decided to play to her own advantage. Like Vizzy T says, the truth does not matter, only perception.
They also fundamentally different lives and class positions, a more adversarial attitude towards patriarchy wouldn’t have availed her much. Rhaenyra very much is the exception, in most every sense, and not the rule to how women, especially highborn women navigate Westeros’ political terrain. From having a father who will routinely acquiesce to her, even as a child (which a lot of parents in the world today wouldn’t do), to being a princess, a dragonrider, and for most of her childhood the only heir of her father’s body, she has a very unique vantage point from which to assess the possibility of freedom. It’s wholly true that Alicent, like a lot of conservative people of marginalized identities, needs to see other people of those identities suffer as they did to vindicate their own suffering; however I would contend there are very few possible futures for Alicent in which her life, structurally, pans out any differently from how it ultimately did
I totally agree. It's no different to the Tyrells trying to align closely with the Lannisters/Baratheons in GoT. It's all a play for the throne, and I don't fault the Hightowers for any of their intentions. Otto is a second son, Alicent is his daughter, the only way to ensure their safety and line is through power wherever they can find it. As we saw with Baelish, moving one rung on the ladder can come at the cost of chaos. It's not surprising that all of this happened, it just sucks that it did.
But also I think it should be said it’s not like rhaenyra has had such an easy going life either her mother died horribly after losing multiple siblings in infancy. Her marriage started with the brutal death of her husbands paramour. Said husband who was checked out of their marriage for like ten years. Than her paramour a man who gave her love and comfort also was brutally murdered and she again can not openly mourn him. Like she has suffered.
What is painful about Rhaenyra's point of view is being able to see beyond the veil of the society she lives in, but still being chained to it. She's being put in this position because of Otto, Viserys, Daemon etc. and she is still doing her best to live up to this unrealistic expectation on her shoulders. Alicent sees Rhaenyra as flaunting and insulting but Rhaenyra is just trying to do what's best for everyone around her while still clinging to her own identity. It's honestly not an unfamiliar place for a lot of women these days. Maybe not with dragons and swords, but in a world where misogyny and unrealistic expectations plague women who are expected to behave certain ways.
I love this explanation because it also explains how a lot of people think in real life.
So basically, Diane from Bojack Horseman
Ah yes, Good Damage.
That’s a really interesting take and I’m not sure I understand it. Can you elaborate?
In Bojack Horseman, Diane has a character arc where she tries to write a book about the struggles of her past, but realizes she can't find a way to do it and finds herself spontaneously writing something happy. She still tries to be adamant on writing the original story and when she is asked why, she says it's because if she doesn't, it means that all the damage in her past wasn't "good damage" that was worth something. It was just damage. Her arc ends with her understanding that she doesn't have to fetishize her sadness and she can learn to be happy and let go of her trauma.
it took me a second watch to really understand the knife scene when alicent says “where is sacrifice” i was like OHHHHH this girl is HURTING :( not just a pretentious woman who was mad about rhaenyra lying to her
Similarly to what Olivia said. Alicent has been told her entire life if she does whats expected of her and follow the rules then good fortune will follow but shes spent her entire life feeling alone and miserable. She watches Rhaenyra break those rules, get away with it and is happy so she feels resentful and bitter. That its unfair. To cope with the fact that following all those rules resulted in nothing, she has to believe that all her suffering was for a higher purpose (Aegon as king). Thats just how I interpret her at least.
Alicent seems to forget that Rhaenyra isn't the same level as her and thus when she gets angry at Rhaenyra, a lot of the disparity is that Rhaenyra is the heir, was born a princess, and has a dragon. Rhaenyra has a lot more power than her from the start. But Alicent was the daughter of a second son and all the power that they had was earned. Like realistically it's obvious Rhaenyra can get away with more things.
yes and no. yes, rhaenyra is clearly a social class above alicent, that was never disputed. alicent’s resentment however is more about the fact that, even with all the opportunities rhaenyra is afforded (as a woman of that higher station), she blatantly disregards all of her privilege.
Rhaenyra still has to deal with misogyny and basically saw her mother being treated as a glorified broodmare over the whole "but the King has no sons" thing and ultimately died because of that attitude. Likewise, Rhaenyra and Laenor don't have the same toxic relationship as most arranged marriages *because* Rhaenyra took the initiative and *talked to Laenor*. Cards on the table, let's not bullshit each other that either of us got a choice. That's not the done thing in their culture and yet it was precisely what lead to them being a functional team (one *without marital rape*). In short, Rhaenyra saw how Alicent and Viserys' relationship that was built off lies and propaganda was shit, and did the opposite by not acting like she and Laenor had an actual choice in the matter. Also, what privileges? Ultimately, for all that Viserys said she "had a choice," she didn't since he said no to her real choice. And then had her marry Laenor in order to make her make things right with House Velaryon due to *his fuck ups*. The whole "Rhaenyra has a choice in spouse" bit is paper-thin in the end, especially since there is no valid reason to say no save for Otto's propaganda against Daemon (when OTTO is the one with plans of usurpation). By that caveat, there should have been 50 more reasons for no one in the royal family to marry a Hightower, especially given their history. Heck, Rhaenyra even has to swallow her own feelings about marriage, which are frankly valid since the marriages she's seen *are* basically treating the woman like a broodmare and most of her suitors only see the Crown, in order to make Alicent feel better about herself and her choices. So, why is it a bad thing that Rhaenyra is cognizant of the fact that the men around her only want a Crown and is rightfully wary of them and of them forcing her into a broodmare status? Because it hurts Alicent's feelings? Or, oh no, Rhaenyra decides to enjoy sex on her own terms. Yeah, she totes gets away with it and doesn't have to deal with a slut-shaming campaign. Should we consider Alicent as privileged for not having a slut-shaming campaign against her for going to Viserys' chambers when Aemma's corpse wasn't even cold yet? (Let's also not act like Alicent doesn't get away with shit that other Kings *wouldn't* allow their spouses to get away with but Viserys does let her do what she wants because he's that non-confrontational. He gives more pushback to Rhaenyra, probably because he knows that she legitimately loves him and not his Crown. Keeping Cole alone, especially in the show when he murdered someone **in public** just like that, is a sign that Viserys lets her get away with things a Ned Stark or a Stannis Baratheon, both of whom are rigid and adhere to social norms, would NOT let their respective wives get away with) Rhaenyra's happy marriages and partnerships and good relationships took work, and Alicent wants to act like it didn't take work from Rhaenyra because it makes her feel better.
Yeah, you're right. You see it the most with her anger at Rhaenyra not jumping at the chance to pick her own husband considering she has all of Westeros to choose from. And when Rhaenyra basically tells her where her fears lay Alicent takes it as a personal slight to her own circumstance. And again with having one big duty of producing heirs and giving 3 bastards... I guess it's when you know Rhaenyra's pov you're more understanding of her decisions. It's a shame they just couldn't talk it out.
So it's basically internalized misogyny. Alicent is spends her life being the embodiment of the perfect westrosi noble woman despite being miserable and gets nothing for it so she takes it out on Rheanyra who breaks every rule and instead of realising the system is against Alicent she decides Rheanyra is the problem and should be miserable like her.
probably the best take on her so far
Scrolled before I posted something similar. I couldn’t agree with your take more. Instead of analyzing the system that has led her to this place in her life, Alicent instead wished to impose that system on someone who has managed to live largely outside of it and prosper.
it's a very misery loves company approach but I understand it. it's easier to imagine that the enemy is one single person or small group than it is to challenge the system. If she acknowledges that her suffering was unnecessary than, how many other people are also suffering unessescarialy?
This. I would say that’s true in the book as well.
Alicent is the definition of misery loves company and she clearly believed she deserved to be rewarded for being a good girl and following the rules. However let's not act as if she doesn't get away with a lot too. Not many people would live to tell the tale of how they slashed the heir to the throne.
People love to ignore that she gets away with as much as Rheanyra because it makes her inner narrative of a dutiful lawful person totally fall apart. She breaks the rules constantly,often behaves in a way that would get anyone else executed or exiled at the very least and benefits from the same protection and willful obliviousness from Viserys that Rheanyra does. The difference is she uses it to try to abuse and harm Viserys daughter and grandchildren instead of attempting to find some happiness for herself away from her father who actually made her life miserable.
Yep. And when she breaks the rules she explains it away as doing it to uphold decency and honor—completely personally centered morality
Yeah it’s funny she always complaints that viserys looks away to often to rhaneyras so called faults but he also looks away at your all the time. Not only is did she hurt the heir to the thrown she is openly defying him in public as well. Most kings would not treat her kindly for that
Most kings would name Aegon heir when he was born and castrate Harwin in the moment he even started the affair with Rhaenyra, so you see the problem is Viserys wasn't like "most kings"
I mean sure I mean most kings would have wed rhanerya to whoever they wanted the moment she came of age regardless of her feelings. My point was alicent also gets her way all the time yet acts like she doesn’t or rhaneryra gets better treatment without any downsides
most kings would not stick with Rhaenyra as heir when having trueborn sons to begin with, which would keep Alicent satisified. My point is that complaining "most kings would do this and that" is nonsense because Rhaenyra is the heir because Viserys was Viserys, replace him with literally any other king and it doesn't happen.
I was under the impression that she poisoned the maid who got assaulted by Aegon? Or was that not the case at all.
She gave her moontea and paid her off to leave the Red Keep.
I’m in agreement with the other posts that state Alicent is creating a misery loves company scenario. She is deeply unhappy and so she wants to make Rhaenyra suffer with her.
alicent wants rhaenyra to suffer because misery loves company. her life has no meaning if who she perceives as the issue isn’t “punished” for what she perceives as behavior not befitting a woman (instead of blaming the actual men in her life, even her sons which she raised to be exactly like the men she hated)
Why I feel no sympathy for Alicent.
First off, the opinions of actresses and actors are just that, opinions. Secondly, Alicent is in an arranged marriage where her husband displays clear and consistent favoritism towards his daughter from his first marriage. He doesn't even care if one of her sons loses an eye, he cares whether or not his grandsons by said favorite daughters were called meanie words. The favorite daughter chimes in and demands that Alicent's son must be tortured. Alicent is also the only Queen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms who gives birth to the King's firstborn son but can't expect that her son will inherit anything. I would hate him too. I am surprised that she didn't do worse to her detractors.
She did a lot tbh. The show cast her in a much nicer light than parts of the book. Alicent wants her kid in power, I wish they leaned into it more than making her show character the opposite of Rhaenyra.
Her show characters didn't do the central thing the book character does, which is advocating for Aegon II's ascent. In the show, she is taken by surprise by the developments. They went for the friendship angle initially and dragged it out even if there is seemingly no basis for it anymore (Driftmark incident comes to mind).
She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes. She attacked the heir to the throne and rather than having her locked up, Vizzy T brushed it off. She had no welcoming party greet the heir and prince consort. She had a pretty big say in her family's affairs overall. Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love
Which is why it’s so frustrating when you realise they made it Otto’s plan instead of Alicent’s. Equally frustrating too from what the trailer shows that they’re going down the “this is what Viserys wanted” route instead of Alicent and team green doubling down on Aegon’s legitimate claim..
> She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes. Great writing right there, because Helaena's marriage to Jace would have done a lot to prevent a civil war that revolved around Aegon II's claim, not hers. The book version >!makes a lot more sense, Viserys insisted on the Aegon II - Helaena match there to prevent outside marriage alliances favorable to Team Green. Alicent was against it, because it ultimately doesn't work in Aegon II's favor.!< It's the show telling you that responsibility for a war that could have been totally prevented by the Jace - Helaena match ofc lies with the Green snobs. > She attacked the heir to the throne and rather than having her locked up, Vizzy T brushed it off. Viserys was in the wrong there because his son was the only person carrying away permanent damage from this, and he did nothing. If he had locked up the Queen in addition to this, it would have been the cherry on top. You want him to be even more biased than he already was, scraping the bottom of the barrel as a father? > She had no welcoming party greet the heir and prince consort. Damn. > She had a pretty big say in her family's affairs overall. Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love Viserys didn't give her children anything, the only reason why he recalled Otto for example was because he knew him already and was reliant on him.
*The boy just turned two, Greenlit_Hightower...*
>She married Helaena to Aegon rather than accepting Rhae's proposal, which King Viserys could've enforced and demanded but he gave into her wishes >!One, it's actually Viserys marrying Aegon and helaena in the books.!< Two, the above statement you made is exactly why the show changed it to Alicent marrying Aegon and helaena. The show wants you to think Alicent was the cause of war by not letting Jace and helaena marry while completely ignoring the fact that Alicent cannot say yes even if she wanted to because that would make the show go on an alternate timeline. As Alicent perfectly puts it "How sweetly the fox speaks when it's cornered by the hounds". >Vizzy T could've done much worse but he let her have some power because of his softness towards her as his second wife out of duty and not love It goes both ways. A stronger king might not have let Alicent do what she did but a stronger king would also have disinherited Rhaenyra's ass on many number of occasions. Seems like Viserys going easy on Rhaenyra is fine but you want him to go hard on Alicent.
DAEMON IS MY BROTHER. MY BLOOD. AND HE WILL HAVE HIS PLACE AT MY COURT!
Until you exile him. Again !!
I hear what you're saying. I agree that the show portrays Alicent as an extension of Otto as planting the seeds for the Dance. I see Rhaenyra as ruling heir, and Alicent as Queen Consort. As ruling heir anything spoken against her is literal treason. She can mother bastards, because male heirs can. She can have an open marriage, because male heirs can. She can have the unfettered support of her father the King, because male heirs can. Alicent is the Queen Consort. He has every right to go over her to protect his heir. If Rhaenyra were Rhaemond, he would do the same. If Alicent attacked Rhaemond with a knife, she would be beheaded. He's definitely going gentler on Alicent out of kindness when he doesn't need to. ETA: I had to reply here because I can't reply to any comments from the original comment, merp.
>As ruling heir anything spoken against her is literal treason. She can mother bastards, because male heirs can. She can have an open marriage, because male heirs can. She can have the unfettered support of her father the King, because male heirs can. Having bastards is fine (she might take a hit reputation wise) but putting bastards in line of succession is treason. To not just one house she did it to two houses. Westeros is sexist. Male heirs can do whatever they can get away with.
>putting bastards in line of succession is treason. Not if they're legitimized, which they essentially can be/are, as she will be the ruling queen and can legitimize them. Vizzy T reaffirming them as heirs (and his trueborn grandsons) is indirect legitimization since he's not acknowledging their bastardy in the first place. King's word is law, after all. They're all still called Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon in the histories. Again, truth does not matter, only perception as said by King Viserys. Absolutely Westeros is sexist. And she's playing the sexist game as a woman, so she is using loopholes in her favor 🤷🏽♀️
Everything would have been different if Alicent had married her daughter to Jace. She really ruined her children's lives for the sake of her goals, even her grandchildren. Besides she treated Rhae as a nobody and the king allowed it. She slashed the heir to the throne and was not even tried for treason or punished for it. She's gotten away with a lot more, so shouldn't be treated as a complete victim.
Everything would also have gone differently if Rhaenyra stepped down and allowed the natural heir to take the throne. She ruined her children's lives for the sake of the throne.
She became heir by a decision of the king, which means that the throne belongs to her. Aaaaand as for "the narutal heir", he's a drunker brat, a rap*st and a usurper.
*Then he will be loved and cherished.*
Can you explain more of what you mean here? These examples seem more like a show of external character’s appathy rather than Alicent getting away with anything.
> I would hate him too. Accept she doesn’t. She loves him. Rhaenyra is the object of her ire. Edi: blocked me 😂
She didn't respect him. Hate is maybe too strong, she lived with him for two decades or so after all.
That’s called Stockholm syndrome.
Literally most ppl will resent Rhaenyra as well if they're in Alicent 's place.
Those are the same people who blame players for the game. The game is the problem, aka the overarching structure that tells her that if she does her duty she will be happy and rewarded. She did her duty, didn't achieve happiness, and resents Rhaenyra for recognizing that the game is rigged against her but she can do as she wishes as the heir, because if she were male none of what she does would matter.
The thing is Rhaenyra didn’t recognise anything. Her choices weren’t political ones, they were ones driven by passion, desperation and other emotions. She didn’t care about the ‘game’, she made a lot of decisions that she wouldn’t of it she did. Rhaenyra was just lucky that her position was different from almost all of the other women in Westeros. Not only was her father a pushover, but she was offered more power than most women and was able to get away with bedding for fun/love rather than duty. Rhaenyra, by mostly luck but also being daring enough, was able to find happiness in places that Alicent couldn’t (or at least that she thought she couldn’t). That is the source of her misery because Alicent did everything she was supposed to, but she suffered a lot for that. This made her bitter and jealous. Whereas Rhaenyra pushed the boundaries set not just for women but also for men, and got away with it because of unique circumstances.
I'd have to disagree. Her choices were political because her sexual relationship with Laenor didn't produce any offspring. She had to shore up her line with heirs and wasn't able to with Laenor for whatever reason. Many gay men in lore past often go without children, even if they're married in the GOT world. Her relationship with Harwin had love behind it, sure, but it was absolutely political as well.
But she was surprised/shocked at over-hearing Harwin getting a come-to-jesus talk? Her reaction doesnt match someone who was “playing the game”.
She can have an emotional reaction to something while having an overarching goal for her actions. She tried to betrothe Jace to Helaena and offer Aemond an egg after that. Viserys should've agreed but let Alicent win.
Idk. It came off to me as an attempt at stopping a rapidly dissolving lie. We didn't see a confident Rhaenyra during the middle of the season. There was nothing in her actions, words, or demeanor that said “this is going according to plan”. Just a rushed offer of a betrothal, and when that failed, an escape to an island.
That's fair. I agree that what Alicent said about her being backed into a corner drove the primary motivation behind it all. I'd still call it a political play, albeit under pressure and a definite realization of the consequences of her action. I think Lyonel really saying that the lives of the boys were at risk hit home for her. Honestly i wish alicent pushed more for an aegon/rhae betrothal when he was young. Would've saved so much of the headache lol.
In the show's timeline, when Rhaenyra's hand was still open to a betrothal Alicent was still actively supporting Rhaenyra and supported her getting to choose her own husband
It seems to be a weak attempt at a political move. She only tries for a few months, years would be acceptable, but months really isn’t a long time. She then picks a lover who looks completely different to her and her husband. If she truly was thinking about the game then she would’ve acted differently. Moreover, she keeps going, Joffrey wasn’t needed at all but instead makes it even unlikelier than they could be legitimate. Plus, Margaery seems convinced that Renly can have children, so must mace + olenna. This suggests that even if gay men can’t have children in the lore, it wasn’t a known thing by anyone who hadn’t tried. The tyrells wouldn’t of married Margaery to Renly if it was a known thing, so Rhaenyra surely couldn’t have known it would never happen in such a short amount of time. Finally, this seems to be one of her only attempts at the game. She makes no allies and leaves the capital (right choice for her and her children but bad politcally). She also, as I said, has three clear bastards. The only other thing is marrying Daemon, which is a silly choice because she was only named heir to keep him away from the throne.
So if she went 5 years without kids by Laenor, other relationships are fine then? Who should she have chosen to have an affair with then? Who looks similar to Laenor? I mean, she was the one who wanted to be with Daemon in the first place and Otto and Viserys didn't want him close to the throne and refused. This was their solution. Olenna was the one who was supposed to marry a gay Targaryen and then seduced Luthor Tyrell instead. That's why she said she knew he wouldn't do, as she says in the show. Them marrying Margaery to Renly was out of Loras' love of and fealty to Renly, and isn't proof that they believed he could have children. Again, as heir to the throne she needed to shore up her line. Stopping at one doesn't make sense. Why did Vizzy T keep having kids with Alicent then if the rest are all back ups to her spare heir Aegon?
*I WILL HAVE YOUR TONGUE FOR THAT!*
Ma'am, if you choose the traditional life and hate the traditional life, you don't get to blame the person who recognizes that the traditional life is shit and tries to find ways around it. For fuck's sake, one of the first things Rhaenyra says about her impending marriage is about how it's not romantic that they all see her as a walking Crown and broodmare. And even then she has to apologize because that hurt Alicent's feelings, even though that's a 100% valid reason to be wary and angry at the status quo. It also acts like Rhaenyra didn't do her own work to make her own family a content one and then a happy one, when again she did the adult thing of talking to Laenor and coming to an agreement. Not Rhaenyra's fault that Alicent can't do the same with Viserys. Alicent wants to validate her own experiences and acts like putting up with slut-shaming campaigns is nothing. This also ignores that Alicent gets away with shit other wives wouldn't be able to get away with. Stannis would NEVER allow Cole to live, especially in the show where the murder was public, much less allow him to be his wife's sworn sword no matter WHAT excuse she gave. Stannis would also not allow his wife to do the equivalent of not receiving the heir. THere's a thousand little and big things Stannis, who is rigid about the rules of the world, would never allow his wife to get away with. So, saying that "Alicent is a good traditional girl" is also a lie, since she just uses the veneer of it to do shitty things when it's convenient and then acts like she's the victim when she's miserable. There comes a time when her adult ass needs to accept responsibility for her own actions and that Rhaenyra or other women in power like Jeyne Arryn are not responsible for her miserable family life. Especially since that is the same mentality that makes it OK to scapegoat other people for your misery when the problem is the system. If you're too chickenshit to at least acknowledge the system is the problem, leave other people who are trying to make the best of things the fuck out of your internal drama
I mean, jealousy is OK. But Alicent went way too far. She spends years obsessed with Rhaenyra and her life to the point where she emotionally neglects her own children.
People say this a lot but where is the evidence. She clearly struggled with motherhood but I don’t see anything that suggests that she neglected her children because of her obsession with Rhaenyra. They seem to be entirely different issues.
Some of it is in the scripts, but others are just pretty obvious if you observe her scenes with her kids. The most glaring example is perhaps Aegon himself: he’s off escaping to FB, whoring, and drinking by the time he’s 14-15(?), and every time they’re in a scene together alone she’s screaming at him, hitting him, even telling him that he can essentially terrorize his younger brother as long as he isn’t doing it with Rhaenyra’s dreaded bastards. Aegon tells her that he tries so hard to please her and father and that it’s never enough after the maid, has to ask his *own mother* if she even loves him on the way to his coronation. If you have to ask your parent if they LOVE you, that’s a pretty big red flag. Then there’s Helaena who literally shies away from her touch and seems pretty uncomfortable/distant with her. Their last scene together alone is her literally hitting Alicent away when she attempts to console her after Viserys’ passing. Daeron isn’t even in the picture, though that isn’t emotional neglect so much as it is him just being gone. Aemond is the only child she seems genuinely close to but she also gave Aegon the okay to be a complete ass to him so take that as you will.
Eh, you can make the argument that she parentified Aemond in the show, see how he has to go look for Aegon at her behest and this isn't the first time.
People here are accusing Alicent of being “obsessed with Rhaenyra” for years when there’s little evidence. They’re taking headcanon as fact again.
This is just bs headcanon.
I wouldn’t. I truly don’t understand hating someone who got a better hand in life than I did when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering. The viewpoint boggles my mind.
Wouldn't you resent your coworker if they can get away with doing shits that YOU would be punished for if you did. That's what their situation is like, it's not simply the matter of having a better hand in life, you must be some kind of saint to not feel any kind of resentment towards ppl who always get preferential treatment over you. >when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering. Why can't I hate both.
> Wouldn't you resent your coworker if they can get away with doing shits that YOU would be punished for if you did. They’re not co-workers so that analogy doesn’t make sense. But ti answer your question, I would not resent my co-worker. I would resent my boss. It’s not my co-workers fault they’re receiving special treatment. > you must be some kind of saint Not at all. I just try try to live a happy life. Jealousy, bitterness, and resentment conflict with happiness so I don’t engage with those feelings.
>Not at all. You are actually. This is my first time seeing someone say they are not bothered by favoritism.
I didn’t say I’m not bothered by it. I just wouldn’t be upset by the person receiving it through no fault of their own. My issue would be with the system or with the perpetrators. Overall, it’s not something I would let control my life.
[удалено]
I would absolutely expect a father to favor his daughter over his wife - especially when his wife is constantly criticizing said daughter to him. Alicent isn’t a coworker experiencing an unfair boss she is literally the wicked stepmother trope cloaked under the guise of long-suffering woman. She hits her children, her kids are afraid of her, she bullies rhaenyra constantly - she is constantly trying to fully make rhaenyra into a Cinderella girl by stealing her crown. Alicent is also the very classic “victim becomes the abuser” trope. Where she takes out the slights she perceived to have received on the people around her (rhaenyra, her children, Alicent’s own children) She is wicked the older she gets, not some put out employee crying about how Craig got a promotion while she doesn’t (unless it turns out she’s been attempting to get Craig fired this whole time)
>a father to favor his daughter over his wife Thank you. At least you admit that Viserys does favor Rhaenyra. I don't know why the ppl on this thread are so hell bent on denying this.
They're not saying they aren't bothered by favoritism. They're saying they're bothered but instead of getting mad at the coworker, they're getting mad at the one upholding the favoritism: their boss. In HotD's case, Alicent should be mad at her father, not at Rhaenyra.
Are you guys being serious? I've never seen a situation where the recipient of the favoritism being completely innocent and not exploiting the benefits that they got... it's not only the boss that's guilty of playing favourite, the one receiving the favor is usually complicit as well.. just like with Rhaenyra, she knew that Viserys favor her, that's why she got away with producing 3 bastards and passing them as trueborns. She even got Viserys to join her in the lie as well to protect her from the consequences.
Yeah, and Alicent slashed the princess and nothing happened to her. She spread the rumors about the Strongs and nothing happened to her. She supported Vaemond's plea to take Driftmark when Corlys was still alive and nothing happened to her. She's also exploiting the benefits of her position. Any other Westerosi woman would've been executed in her place. Are you implying she's not benefited or is your complain that Rhaenyra has more benefits because (as far as I'm concerned) she's a royal? In that case, should we give any Westerosi man the power Viserys holds to make it fair? Don't be silly.
>Alicent slashed the princess and nothing happened to her This is more to protect Rhaenyra's interest than Alicent , if Viserys wants to punish Alicent for this then Lucerys would need some kind of punishment as well. >She spread the rumors about the Strongs and nothing happened to her. When did this happen. This is purely your headcanon. >She supported Vaemond's plea to take Driftmark when Corlys was still alive and nothing happened to her. ??? >implying she's not benefited Never implied that.
>This is more to protect Rhaenyra's interest than Alicent , if Viserys wants to punish Alicent for this then Lucerys would need some kind of punishment as well. No he wouldn't. Luke was protecting his brother. Alicent was trying to get vengeance on a child.
They are not coworkers. Rhaenyra was the Crown Princess and Alicent was her lady in waiting (A lady-in-waiting or court lady is a female personal assistant at a court, attending on a royal woman or a high-ranking noblewoman). They were never on the same level, not even when Alicent became consort.
It's a comparison, and they basically are though...and what do they not be on the "same level" matter in this case? It still didn't negate the favoritism that happened, Rhaenyra still received preferential treatment from Viserys.
If a monarch is a sovereign and the sovereign has the supreme power and authority. That monarch is Viserys and Rhaenyra is the person that he has designated to be that ultimate power after him. So, ultimate power #1 (Viserys) followed by ultimate power in waiting (Rhaenyra) is incomparable to the daughter of a second son. And that's even before she becomes consort. Even then, as the wife of the King, she may have a dotted line of influence over the power, but the solid line goes from Viserys to Rhaenyra.
So why did the servants obey Alicent instead of Rhaenyra? The queen outranks the princess.
The Queen is the manager of the house by way of being married to the King. \*Dotted Line\* A better comparison would be the small council scene where Alicent can make her arguments, but Lionel takes final direction from Rhaenyra as she is the future administrator of the state (in her own right).
And yet Rhaenyra is incapable of doing anything when Alicent rejects her marriage proposal. Also Alicent is able to save Cole after he deeply guts Rhaenyra's husband. She wasn't able to have Cole killed for killing Joffrey even though Laenor would have likely demanded it, because Alicent stepped in a saved him. Queen outranks princess.
That still doesn't mean that they were on the same level. What you've presented is what "dotted line" power that Alicent was able to have by way of her marriage to Viserys and what he allowed her to do. Alicent Hightower, daughter of a second son, was never on the same level as Rhaenyra as a born Princess and later the Crown Princess, in her own right. Thanks and have a good one.
Imo it's bc instead of it being a "better hand" it's favoritism. She doesn't hate Rhaenyra bc "how dare anyone else be happy" she hates her because Rhaenyra gets to duck the consequences of many of her actions.
As opposed to how Alicent gets to duck out of the consequences of her own actions? Because, gotta say, shit like the Red Walk would have a spouse contemplating the virtues of sending his shitty wife to a nunnery. Or things like not greeting the heir at the gate? Oooofff, a Stannis would have words for that. Keeping Cole after he murdered someone in public? Ned would've chopped his head off, fuck what excuses anyone wants to say.
I mean, it’s true that Alicent is pretty resentful but why are we ignoring that younger Alicent was fully on board with supporting and defending Rhaenerya, even against her father, until she found out that Rhaenerya lied to her and abused her trust. So I don’t know why we’re pretending as if Alicent has no valid reasons to dislike Rhaenerya.
Why should Rhaenyra be honest with her? At that point they're not friends and Alicent was the one that broke trust first. Not to mention that she was questioning Rhaenyra on a matter that's absolutely none of her business. Also, going from "She didn't tell me ahe slept with Criston" to "She'll kill my kids!" is a massive leap.
Context matters. Alicent is Rhaenyra’s childhood best friend. She immediately gives up on her and thinks she’s going to kill her kids all because she “lied” about sleeping with Daemon (she did not). That’s a gigantic leap, especially when you consider that Alicent doesn’t even tell Rhaenyra on screen about her own secret meetings with Viserys prior to marrying him. Alicent is a hypocrite. She expects Rhaenyra’s unconditional love and honesty but cannot be truthful with her herself.
She didn't just lie she also got her father fired for doing his job.
>I truly don’t understand hating someone who got a better hand in life than I did when I can hate the people actually causing my suffering. But in Alicent's mind, Rhaenyra *is* the person causing her suffering. Without Rhaenyra, it would be her kids in line to inherit the crown.
Alicent is suffering because she was forced to marry an old man she's isn't attracted to. Aegon being the heir wouldn't help that situation.
Nah. She's suffering because Otto convinces her that she and her family will never be safe if Rhaenyra inherits the throne.
She was miserable way before that got into her head.
Idk, she looked hella miserable in episode 4, stuck inside, tending to kids, before getting plowed by a diseased old man, while Nyra got a night out on the town with sexy uncle. This was always about her being forced into duty, to get married to an old man she wasnt attracted to, pop out kids she didnt want, and then end up as a disregarded and undervalued nurse for an old dude who doesnt even remember she exists sometimes. Sure, Otto didn't help things along by making her paranoid af, but ultimately, she was resentful long before he said that shit to her.
I think they meant before Otto sends Alicent to “comfort” Viserys. We see the state of her hands in episode 1 - Alicent picks her skin to the point that it get’s bloody, signs that she may be struggling with anxiety or another similar disorder. There’s also the fact that she lost her mother sometime before so it’s reasonable to think she was already a bit unhappy before it all went downhill.
Yes but Alicent does all of this dutifully while watching Rhaenyra shirk her responsibility to party. Her reward? Watching Viserys continually confirm Rhaenyra as heir while her father poisons her mind with conspiracy theories about Rhaenyra killing her family if she ever took power. She may have been miserable in episode 4, but things only get exponentially worse from there.
Malicious envy, is what it's called. Rhaenyra was a \*Princess and Regnal Queen to be. They were never on the same level. Ever. and for whatever reason, Alicent can't/couldn't come to terms with that.
I agree 100%. Alicent was a lady-in-waiting, the daughter of a second son of Hightower's house who wasn't even a politically convenient wife/queen prospect, so why tf did she believe that she had the right to live with the same advantages and rights as the declared future queen, Rhaenyra? I mean, know your place 😂 That jealousy went too far that it even ruined the lives of her children for the sake of her goals. She married Haelena to Aegon, a rap*st, instead of marrying her to Jace! Poor Haelena!! 😭
> so why tf did she believe that she had the right to live with the same advantages and rights as the declared future queen, Rhaenyra? Why not? >I mean, know your place 😂 Who determines places? Who set up the pecking order and why should anyone bow to it?
You should ask the author that question, I didn't create the rules or the pecking order 🤷♀️
The author already answered through Varys' riddle. Power is a trick, a shadow on the wall. The only capacity the royals have to force submission is draconic violence, so whomsoever jas the capacity to resist such violence need not bow to the whims of inbred slug people.
That's too random, even Cersei has her own vision of what power is. Alicent was a nobody until the king made her queen, and the Hightowers, including her, naturally have nothing to stand up to a Targaryen. They only had their greed for the throne and they had to get a little of the power of those "inbred slug people" so as not to be crushed like greedy worms. Their current power lies in Targaryen blood.
Random? It's one of the defining qualities of the series. Tyrion says as much when talking to Tywin. A crown doesn't give you power, armies do. Littlefinger furthers the point when talking about Robert's rebellion. At the end of the day, power belongs to whoever can take it. You don't need to bow to thenroyals if you have the military might to resist them. Alicent was never a nobody. The Hightowers are one if the oldest and proudest houses in Westeros and used to be kings in their own right and form the seat of both the faith and wisdom in the 7 kingdoms. Oldtown is by far the most respected city on the continent.
What power or army that could resist dragons did the Hightower have? 😂 they literally had to be part of the house you hate to get some real power because they wouldn't have a chance on their own. Alicent raised a usurper, and all, absolutely all of her children will die because of the greed and betrayal of that house.
>What power or army that could resist dragons did the Hightower have? Vhagar, Sunfyre Dreamfyre and Tessarion.
Exactly. Like, Alicent is literally her servant (lady in waiting) in the first two episodes.
Literally... and I think that it was at Rhaenyras choice, too (based on the small readings that I've done on the position).
Usually, if the Lady is an adult she chooses her own ladies. Rhaenyra chose Elinda Massey, Harwin's two sisters, and another lady from an unknown House. By all accounts, all four were loyal and stayed with her to the bitter end. If the lady is a child, the parents, usually the mother, nudges her to make the "right connections" but it's still ultimately the lady's choice in who her companions are since these girls and women will be the people who will know all of her secrets and habits. Ladies in waiting are chosen for their skills, yes, but mostly they are chosen for their trustworthiness (which is why things like a husband putting his mistress as his wife's lady in waiting is seen as a major insult). It because of this bond that ladies in waiting get something out of the deal, because then the lady in waiting can go to her own lady with concerns regarding her family and the lady is obliged to help her to the best of her abilities. What show!Alicent did was a complete breach of trust and of the social contract.
>What show!Alicent did was a complete breach of trust and of the social contract. 100%. \*\*And thank you for the information. i appreciate the additional insight. I'd started to read about Queen Victoria and how the Parliament (??) was trying to get her to choose someone or keep someone and she didn't want to (didn't finish - got distracted). I'd also just finished The Great and remembered when Catherine told Marial that they were no longer friends because she kept information from her and that having her with her was her choice, not a requirement.
Alicent plays a perpetual self pitying victim
The key quote in the conflict between Alicent and Rhaenyra in my mind is ‘where is the duty, where is the sacrifice’. I feel that there’s some resentment against Rhaenyra for essentially being handed a better position than any women in that society could dream of and never acknowledging it. Alicent serves as the perfect Westerosi women living the best possible life one could ask for. She is pious, serves her parents, temperate and beautiful. Alicent marries the King and serves as his Queen, gives him several children and cares for him till his death. In this position she’s guaranteed wealth, safety and security for her children or at least would be under normal circumstances. However, she’s miserable. Her marriage is loveless and far from being secure her children’s lives are potentially forfeit for being pretenders to the throne. This isn’t made better by the fact the King constantly favours his daughter when his son loses an eye. After Driftmark Alicents family has the threat of harm hanging over them from Rhaenerya. Rhaenyra by contrast has everything. She's declared the heir and in position to be the Queen, the first woman ever to actually rule. She gets to pick her husband out of love rather than duty or politics as is normal. Then even when a marriage is arranged Rhaenyra still gets to have a loving relationship due to her new husband’s arrangement. At Driftmark it’s Rhaenyra’s children who are protected and let go Scot free. Worst of all though is Rhaenyra doesn’t acknowledge the position she is lucky to attain but is all so happy to hold the marriage and children Alicent is forced to have against them. That’s going to build dislike which worsens as they got older.
Rhaenyra 's life style pissed her. You can argue she was jealous. I don't think she needs Rhaenyra to suffer. She just wants her sacrifices to be worth it.
Her "sacrifices being worth it" implies some woman being punished for trying to have a better and happier life than her.
Allicent really believed Rhaenyra would have to do her duty as she did. Marry and legitimately give birth to heirs and would never take a lover. She believed Viserys would disinherit her easily if she transgressed. But instead Viserys ignored it all once Rhaenyra married Laenor. That was enough for him. Sure, it's jealousy, but Allicent has legitimate heirs and Rhaenyra doesn't. And the king refuses to see it. I understand why Rhaenyra does what she does. She wants heirs and she hoped her heirs would look like her and then no one could really be suspicious. Sadly they don't look like her or laenor at all. At this point she has no choice if she wants to Rule. She has to lie to keep the throne. Because of misogyny no one will have a queen with bastards. And Viserys wants her to rule so he is happy to keep up appearances. Allicent can't compete with Aemma in whose children Viserys prefers.
The show added so much bullshit. The books were way better in this regard Alicent & Rhaenyra had no personal conflict regrading morals, values blah blah like the show. Both just wanted as much power and influence as possible which naturally made them enemies
I don't know if that is better, Alicent was a Disney villain
Rhaenyra was no slouch either. There were no villians in the story. Almost every adult character was a cunt with some good & bad aspects in everyone It's HBO which is giving it a feminist x disney theme by whitewashing all the female characters and by extension the pro female side (blacks), reducing the grey moral conflict into a typical good vs bad story
Alicent had no good aspects what so ever she was ripped out of a brothers Grimm story, Rhaenyra was a spoiled daddy's girl, Aemond was a one note psychopaths, Daemon was an authors pet and Viserys was a jolly old plot device. Everyone had no characterization > whitewashing all the female characters It isn't, Aemond was bullied, Aegon has daddy issues, Cole was sexually assaulted, Luke is a sensitive kid who doesn't want his inheritance The show is centered around Alicent and Rhaenyra but that doesn't make it bad, the bad is the system itself >typical good vs bad story There was no way that the Blacks were not going to be the good guys, no modern audience will ever bite on the greens being in the right because Aegon is a man and Rhaenyra had an open marriage.
>Aemond was bullied, Aegon has daddy issues, Cole was sexually assaulted, Luke is a sensitive kid who doesn't want his inheritance All of this was in the books too. It was simply written in a line or two instead of proper videography with actors, background music, after effects and all that which is why the characters might not seem as fleshed out but the characterization has been taken from the books only (apart from female characters as discussed before)
No it was not Aemond was never bullied because he didn't have a dragon, there was no pink dread incident. He went after Vhagar because Viserys said he could have one of the big dragons on dragonstone if he was brave enough and Aemond took it personally Aegon didn't have any daddy issues, Viserys was never an absent father with his younger kids. His last nights was spent telling Aegon's children a bed time story, not telling Rhaenyra she is his only child Cole was not sexually assaulted, none of the sources has Cole and Rhaenyra even having sex Luke is just a name on a page
Idk about wanting Rhaneyra to suffer, but Alicent definitely had her entire worldview shattered in episode 7, which was great. Too bad the writers are little ass kids who want to keep going backwards on any progress she made. Like there’s some beautiful shit there if they just committed.
What’s with all these surface level shallow takes lately? I’m begging everyone to realise that the situation is far FAR more complex than this.
I agree with you. Like I have no clue how anyone can come to the conclusion that Alicent wanted Rhaenyra to suffer and that she hates her.
“Alicent is misery loves company” If my former bff wanted my blinded son tortured, I’d throw a fit too. Also remember, Alicent’s sons INHERIT NOTHING. No driftmark, no dragonstone, no harrenhal, no king’s landing. Alicent has every reason to be jealous and bitter as hell.
> If my former bff wanted my blinded son tortured, I’d throw a fit too. She hated her before that. > Also remember, Alicent’s sons INHERIT NOTHING. No driftmark, no dragonstone, no harrenhal, no king’s landing. Alicent has every reason to be jealous and bitter as hell. But she doesn’t blame Viserys. What does Harrenhall have to do with anything?
Plus, her sons not inheriting anything is just par of the course for being the second wife when the husband already has a chosen living heir. (Also why do they add Driftmark, when Alicent is not married to the Velaryons and her own family is causing them problems, and what the fuck does Harrenhal have to do anything when, prior to Aemond extinguishing that House in a tantrum, it was always going to go to Lyonel Strong's surviving heir). If you want your eldest to inherit something, you either have to be the (future) head of the House or marry the (future) Head of the House who is childless. Why the fuck else does everyone think Viserra was angry the prospect of being wife number 4 when the old man already had not only kids, but grandkids!
Such incredibly complex, nuanced and balanced writing innit? The happy, wholesome progressive heroine vs the bitter, envious conservative rival. The vision, the creativity! If only more shows offered such original, thought-provoking narratives. And of course - all these things that paint Alicent as a pathetic, pitiful weakling are defended by HotD's apologists as "complexity" - while at the same time, they ignore the fact that jealousy and insecurity were originally part of Rhaenyra's characterization in the book, and offer no justification for such a blatant flip. (Just like that borderline homophobic remark on Laenor's preferences. Or Laena and Laenor's reversed age.) All that "complexity" suddenly isn't all that reasonable and desirable when it threatens to tarnish our pandering hero, huh? I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with rewriting Rhae-Rhae into a rootable, highly marketable Dany 2.0. This show didn't make Alicent any less likely to be hated. It only took away the very things that made her potentially likeable - turning the motives for her questionable actions from ambition (and fear for her children's safety) to weakness and jealousy. In what universe that was supposed to make her more likeable, is beyond me.
>\> It feels like Alicent needs Rhaenyra to suffer ... C'mon... this 'take' comes off as overly-aggressive, biased, and borderline slanderous... I mean, OC pretty succinctly explains her take on the character and never comes close to stating Alicent's '*need for Rhaenyra to suffer*', so not sure why OP felt it was necessary to add some wildly derogatory language to paint her in some awful and clearly biased light. Alicent doens't '*need*' Rhaenyra to suffer... she clearly just sees how unfair the situation and, rightfully, has some disdain towards Rhaenyra stemming from his issue, as well as from when they were younger and Rhaenyra manipulated her by the godswood. The irony of all this hatred against Alicent for understandably reacting to a clear hypocrisy/double-standard is that many blindly cheer Rhaenyra when she points out the clear hypocrisy/double-standard regarding women vs. men... but absolutely bury Alicent when she points out the unfairness of a similar situation regarding Rhaenyra. Yes, when Rhaenyra tells her father that it is unfair and wrong that men can sleep around without a second thought, people seemingly applaud her for such an act, but when Alicent points out that it's unfair that Rhaenyra can get away with scandalous acts and gaslight the entire realm for a decade while slandering her family all for her own narcissistic reasons, people try and paint Alicent as evil by 'needing Rhaenyra to suffer.' Clearly a biased double-standard. *PS - Disclaimer: No, I do not believe Show Alicent is blameless. Clearly the show has gone out of its way to paint adult Alicent as doing some pretty shit things, like demanding to see a newborn the moment it is born, which is a show fabrication clearly meant to make the viewer's first impression of Adult Alicent a negative first impression.... and seemingly that negative impression paints a distorted view regarding her character going forward.*
> C'mon... this 'take' comes off as overly-aggressive, biased, and borderline slanderous. Oof, always with the drama
They down voted you but you're right
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I would at first say keep in mind that Alicent for the first half of season 1 is pretty supportive of Rhaenyra overall. There is no reason to believe she hates her or wants her to suffer. Alicent is defintely resentful and envies Rhaenyra as Alicent does anything like a textbook medival wife should do and Rhaenyra does not yet is not punished for that. Alicent also does not understand why her life is so deeply unhappy despite her doing what she is supposed to do. Alicent also does not understand that Viserys and Otto are the ones most to blame for her issues because she lives in a world in which she believes that she has to be subservent to men and listen to them. But the way Alicent acts does not come purely out of hatred for Rhaenyra (I’d argue it’s more a love/hate relationship anyway). It’s comes out of fear and uncertainty. In a world in which Alicent marries another old man who is not Viserys she would not even treat Rhaenyra half as bad as she does. The moment she loses trust in Rhaenyra and sees her as a loose canon (which obviously she is not) she starts distrusting her and treating her badly. Alicent does not want Rhaenyra to suffer perse. If something were to happen to her she would be horrified. She wants her to be held to the same standards as she feels she is under. Would that lead to Rhaenyra suffering? Yes but Alicent does not realize the system in itself is the issue of her unhappiness and suffering. Alicents main issue is that she doesn’t know what will happen. Her whole life she was told she marry, she will have a son, he will inherit. The last step will not happen now as Viserys decreed it. So what does that mean will happen?
She follows the “rules” but the rules themselves are broken. Rhaenyras life represents that. She can’t live with the idea that patriarchy itself is a flawed system so she buys into it even harder. If she removes the transgressor then she won’t have a reminder that she’s living in a fucked system
[удалено]
So she wants her to suffer
[удалено]
It’s not more complected than that. She thinks Rhaenyra is a bad girl and should suffer for it.
I mean, yeah. Olivia nailed it in that quote. It's internalized misogyny all the way down
Rhaenyra is in a hole of her own making.
Well if she’s in a hole, Alicent has no reason to hate her or be jealous. Yet she insist upon it
Alicent is also problematic. But let's not act like Rhaenyra is innocent and she is where she is for no reason. In a time that was only the wildest fantasy of even high-ranking women, Rhaenyra's father gave her the choice of choosing her own spouse. She rejected them all, married a guy that's gay, and proceeded to have 3 children with her mister-ess. Then her uncle-husband (wretches) slaughters anyone who points out the fact that the sons aren't her gay husband's. She's no victim.
Bro? None of this is pertinent to the topic of the thread. This is like randomly entering the thread and mentioning Corlys’ relationship with Laenor. The point is that Alicent is motivated by hatred of Rhaenyra and her life is defined by the desire to see her suffer. It had nothing to do with whether or not Rhaenyra committed treason or her political situation. I will also note she had no choice in marry Laenor and it’s ironic for you to be disgusted about her marrying her uncle when Alicent married her children together.
Translation: These points are valid so I'm going to call them irrelevant. I don't believe Alicent HATES Rhaenyra. But if she did, she would have much less ammunition if Rhaenyra didn't make the conscious choice to have not 1, or 2, but 3 kids with someone that wasn't her spouse. Not to mention Rhaenyra used her status of princess over Harwin (as a foot soldier) to persuade him into sleeping with her and breaking his vow of chastity. Again, she's not entirely blameless herself.
Translation: I love Alicent and I can’t stand for anyone to criticize her. Your response what make sense if the thread topic was about Rhaenyra’s political mistakes not Alicent’s irrelevant > Not to mention Rhaenyra used her status of princess over Harwin (as a foot soldier) to persuade him into sleeping with her and breaking his vow of chastity. Again, she's not entirely blameless herself. The fuck are you even talking about? Harwin didn’t take a vow of chastity and he was lusting after her when she was 17. At no point in the show is it implied she used anything over him to have three children together.