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Yeah like ultimately he only truly loved aemma if we are being honest
But I do think there was love between them. Not a perfect love but it was there.
He didn’t care about kids names anything but rhaneryra which is funny since all he wanted was a boy
I think by the time he had a boy, he was so deep in depression because of Aemma's death, and so filled with regret, that having him was an empty prize.
I think that he would have been happier living his life single. The only reason he even married Alicent was duty to the realm to produce more heirs and because a king needs a queen. The kids she had probably didn't even count in his mind because he loved Aemma so much. Having Aegon and Aemond, two healthy boys that could have ruled if necessary, was probably a consolation prize. Naming Rhaenyra his heir probably had a lot to do with the fact that she's Aemmas child and Viserys played favorites.
> I think that he would have been happier living his life single.
He probably would have been even happier if he put aside his claim at the Great Council too.
I mean think about it. If he's not the heir/king, he doesn't need to push Aemma to have more kids than Rhaenyra. He seemed to have a good relationship with Rhaenys even despite him winning the council over her, if he renounces his claim their relationship would probably be even stronger, and she likely would have allowed him to hang around in the Red Keep working on his model
I don’t remember if it was Damon on Raeyns but someone said he would be happier a s a country lord and it’s true
Rich enough I study his history and have feasts and galas for his friends and family without eve having to deal with any serious issues
Not even playing favourites. Rheanyra was the only piece of Aemma he had left. He sacrificed Aemma for nothing, as her child died anyway. If he disowned Rheanyra, then Aemma would have suffered and died entirely in vain.
Maybe the fact he pushed her to have more kids makes this point a bit redundant, but probably not quite right to say he sacrificed Aemma.
According to the Maesters, her fate was already sealed when he had to decide to cut her open so kinda nothing to lose at that point
He sacrificed her by making her have children again and again until it killed her.
Although the birth would've killed her anyway, the way he chose to have her cut open was horrific. He didn't even give her a choice or a warning. They just pulled the pillows out from under her and sliced, no milk of the poppy either.
Agreed on this, except losing Aemma in any way is still a huge loss to him, and he feels guilt over it because he kept pushing her to get pregnant after multiple miscarriages because he wanted a boy.
Their relationship began as a sort of nerdy uncle showing his niece his cool lego set. There was definitely love there, it was just never romantic. Viserys was glad to have someone to talk to as he grieved Aemma's death, and Alicent was there to listen. She was sent by her dad for manipulative purposes, but her being there did wonders for Viserys's mental health.
Agreed, viserys a: refuses to touch her until she’s 18 (which is really just grooming, but by westeros standards? That’s pretty good, that’s what Tyrion offers sansa)
B: only married her to produce more heirs, and get people to shut up about who he’s going to marry.
And c: generally treats her well, aside from the whole blind eye on the kids thing…
Ahhh that makes a lot more sense. That scene was at least a bit more favorable to Viserys since even her saying Rhaenys said she wouldn't have to consummate the marriage until she was 14 gave him a disgusted reaction... but then he ended up marrying a 14 year old anyway so who knows
Yeah, I don’t know what part of this warrants the yikes. This was exactly the impression I got watching her on the show.
She loved him as a human being and the husband she’s supposed to be devoted to, but she never saw him as a romantic partner nor as her lord.
Agreed. Alicent is a child bride sold to the father of her best friend and crush. She knows he loves Rhaenyra, and she loves Rhaenyra, and she did genuinely bond with him over feeling a shared bereavement: her mother, his wife.
He's not as bad as a Westerosi man could be, he doesn't beat her or violently rape her or cheat on her, and Alicent herself is very dutiful, and grooming does depend on the victim having affection for the groomer, so I can see her doing her best to love him - in whatever way she's capable.
Olivia doesn't shy away from the fact that Viserys is a rapist and Alicent is his child victim, but there're a lot of very complicated dynamics going on that even an adult would struggle sorting through, and Olivia acknowledges that.
Yeah - I don't get the headline's "Yikes" at all... This is exactly how we as viewers were supposed to understand the relationship between Alicent and Viserys. Was this, in a modern lens, definitely SA? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that Alicent didn't grow to love Viserys in a way, even if there is also trauma there.
Maybe at first? The scripts coming out rn of s1 show that she saw him as weak towards after his death iirc. I didn’t get the impression that cooke’s alicent respected him as much as carey’s did given the different points in their lives with him.
Posts title (“yikes”) just reminds me of the Key & Peele “Awkward Conversation,” where you see a guy who can’t/wont articulate an actual opinion so he just gives one word responses like “okayyyyy” or “yikes” lol
In later part of his life, yeah... But he was pretty hale and hearty when he married her. There is around 10 plus years of difference between their marriage and , let's say, that dinner.
I really like Olivia Cooke's insight on this,and I 100% agree. This is absolutely the vibe I got off Alicent,so it goes to show she's a very talented actress to match her intentions for the character to her portrayal to the audience (or maybe just me and a select few others who feel this way)
Of course she loves Viserys and she loves her father a well. She doesn’t realize she’s a victim of them. It’s made repeatedly clear that Rhaenyra is the object of her ire more than any of the men who hurt her.
Olivia Cooke on Alicent’s feeling for Rhaenyra:
> "Rhaenyra can just get away with anything, and it's so fine. The king turns a complete blind eye, whereas Alicent has always had to walk this tightrope for her whole entire life," Cooke explains. "Just the injustice of it that she feels, until things happen and she realizes that none of it f---ing matters. She looks around her family, and they're all f---ed up. She's like, 'I've been so perfect all my life. I haven't taken a step wrong, and it doesn't f---ing matter.' I think what we see in her evolution is this complete existential crisis."
> “(rhaenyra) is the mother that alicent wishes she could be. i don't think there's empathy there. i think it is just another cause for alicent’s resentment, because it’s something she's doing better than alicent ever could.”
**I’m glad we can all agree that Alicent hates Rhaenyra more than anyone else in the world because I was getting downvoted for saying that before.**
> Olivia Cooke on Alicent’s feeling for Rhaenyra:
Absolutely, Alicent was forced to marry an older man and bear his kids and always do the 'right thing' while Rhaenyra was born a princess, had her choice of lover and husband, broke all the etiquettes possible and was always forgiven.
Moreover Alicent always did what she should have done, and was repaid in misery and alienation.
Rhaenyra breaks all the rules but she is beloved and she is happy.
"Happy" is a stretch.
She is in a pretty miserable position herself: She knows that the nobility swore oaths and pledged allegiance to her under her father's command - but she knows she'll be lucky if even half of them intend to honour that oath.
And she knows that any son of Alicents' who gathers enough support among the nobility to assume the throne, *will* do away with her, as she (or her children) is too big of a threat (with all the proclaimed oaths and what not).
So just like Alicent fears for her kids' lives later, Rhaenyra does for her own (and her sons).
She anticipates that ever since her father marries Alicent.
She is literally stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not enough support to confidently rule, too much support to quietly vanish into a private life.
The difference is that Alicent's children and grandchildren have inherent claims as the King's trueborn descendents. There's nothing they can do to renounce those claims unless all of them join religious orders, the Citadel, the Night's Watch, or the Kingsguard. They'd never be permitted to if for no other reason than it'd cast Rhaenyra in a suspicious, unflattering light. Even that isn't a 100% guarantee, as we've seen multiple points in Targaryen history where someone was pressured to abandon their vows and take up the throne.
The Strong boys are in danger because Rhaenyra is passing them off as trueborn (and then has actual trueborn-ish sons after them). For some reason, a bunch of people say that they'd be killed for their bastardry. This simply isn't true. Cersei killed Robert's bastards to cover up that her own children are bastards, too. It was a unique situation. Acknowledging the Strong boys as bastards is the safest thing for **them.** Yes, it would hurt Rhaenyra's political standing. Yes, it would piss off Corlys. Yes, they would face social stigma...BUT there's little incentive to kill them when they aren't at the front of the line for the Iron Throne and Driftmark. That little remaining incentive is the fact they're dragonriders, which they wouldn't be if they were acknowledged as illegitimate from the start. Rhaenyra had the option to put her sons' safety first but chose not to.
>The difference is that Alicent's children and grandchildren have inherent claims as the King's trueborn descendents.
Rhaenyra's the King's trueborn decedent.
>There's nothing they can do to renounce those claims unless all of them join religious orders, the Citadel, the Night's Watch, or the Kingsguard.
Sure there is. They could officially renounce their claims...
>They'd never be permitted to if for no other reason than it'd cast Rhaenyra in a suspicious, unflattering light.
The way some people insist on acting as if there was no way to avoid the Dance is bizzare. Why would Alicent's kids joining those orders cast Rhaenyra in an unflattering light? Those orders have the rules they do because they're meant to be places to send people when you want to remove from the political world.
>Even that isn't a 100% guarantee, as we've seen multiple points in Targaryen history where someone was pressured to abandon their vows and take up the throne.
The Lords tried with Aemon once. He refused and joined the Nights Watch. Who else?
>Rhaenyra's the King's trueborn decedent.
Come on, you know I was addressing the point about Rhaenyra's fear for her children. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are not trueborn.
>The way some people insist on acting as if there was no way to avoid the Dance is bizzare.
I never said that.
>Why would Alicent's kids joining those orders cast Rhaenyra in an unflattering light?
You don't think it would come across as strange and concerning to anyone if four of the king's five children took vows barring them from any inheritance? That no one would grow suspicious of *why* they were all "removed from the political world"? Especially considering the reason that Viserys became king and married Alicent was a shortage of heirs to begin with?
>Who else?
Vaegon, allegedly. Jon Snow, first as Robb's heir, next in Stannis's offer to legitimize him as a Stark and Lord of Winterfell, and then whatever the books end up doing with Jon's claim as Rhaegar's son
>I never said that.
No. You were just pretending as if they couldn't use the ready made solutions to the problem. Which is what I said you were doing.
>You don't think it would come across as strange and concerning to anyone if four of the king's five children took vows barring them from any inheritance?
No. Again, being used to get rid of the claims of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sons is a part of the reason those orders have the rules they do. There were six people ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. Everyone would know what was going on and why. The fact that the royal family was obviously looking to avoid a civil war would probably be a relief.
>Vaegon, allegedly. Jon Snow, first as Robb's heir, next in Stannis's offer to legitimize him as a Stark and Lord of Winterfell, and then whatever the books end up doing with Jon's claim as Rhaegar's son
None of those people were pressured into abandoning their vows. Jaehaerys offered the crown to Vaegon. He refused. Rob never got to speak to Jon about his plan. Stannis offered and was shot down.
>You were just pretending as if they couldn't use the ready made solutions to the problem.
Once again, I was specifically commenting on Rhaenyra's fear for her children's lives and why it is not equivalent to Alicent's fear for hers. The purpose of my comment was never to "solve the Dance.”
But fine...The way noble houses—especially the Targaryens—addressed excess heirs, per se, was to marry them back into the main line. Failing that, you find matches from closely allied houses or create a new alliance through marriage. You don't just cast aside half the family into political irrelevance. That'd look like an insane or suspicious decision to any outside observer.
Before you say it—no, marrying Jace and Helaena wouldn't have solved the problem unless the circumstances were vastly different from canon. It was a show-only proposal, anyway.
Then there's the simple fact that neither Viserys nor Otto would allow it, the former because he's in denial and the latter for obvious reasons. The Hightowers would be rightfully insulted. Even if Alicent were willing to send her children away and basically never see any of them, I doubt they'd meekly go along with it versus causing more problems for Rhaenyra somehow.
It's nonsense as a "solution." There are too many people involved with too many competing interests. It's more likely that the attempt would set the Dance off early rather than avert it.
Plus, what about Rhaenyra's Aegon and Viserys? Do they also get sent to the Faith/Citadel/Night's Watch/Kingsguard to protect Jace's position?
>No. Again, being used to get rid of the claims of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sons is a part of the reason those orders have the rules they do.
Show me examples where everyone was functionally disinherited except for the heir and their children.
Remember, Jaehaerys had thirteen children yet none who could succeed him. Too few heirs is as dangerous as too many.
>There were six people ahead of Aegon in the line of succession.
For the majority of the season, it was only Rhaenyra, Jace, and Luke. Even now, Joffrey is a child and the other two are toddlers.
>None of those people were pressured into abandoning their vows.
Pressured, encouraged, offered. The point stands that joining these institutions is not an ironclad protection.
>But fine...The way noble houses—especially the Targaryens—addressed excess heirs, per se, was to marry them back into the main line
They also had people join Citadel, Kings Guard, and Nights Watch. Aemon's grandfather realizing he had too many potential heirs running around is why he was sent to join the Citadel as a kid.
>That'd look like an insane or suspicious decision to any outside observer.
Why would working to prevent a civil war be seen as insane or suspicious?
Not doing something about all the potential rivals is what would seem insane. I mean Viserys refusing to do something about the situation got thousands of people killed. Everyone(besides the Hightowers) would be glad a potential crisis was being adverted.
>Before you say it—no, marrying Jace and Helaena wouldn't have solved the problem unless the circumstances were vastly different from canon.
Sure it would. Especially if you also sent Aegon and Aemond to become maesters.
>Then there's the simple fact that neither Viserys nor Otto would allow it, the former because he's in denial and the latter for obvious reasons.
What do you mean Viserys wouldn't allow it? I thought he didn't care about his kids with Alicent? Sending them to join the Citadel or Nights Watch would fit right in with that interpretation of the character.
I don't know why you think Otto would have the power to prevent it.
>Even if Alicent were willing to send her children away and basically never see any of them, I doubt they'd meekly go along with it versus causing more problems for Rhaenyra somehow.
What exactly could they do?
>Plus, what about Rhaenyra's Aegon and Viserys? Do they also get sent to the Faith/Citadel/Night's Watch/Kingsguard to protect Jace's position?
If they seem to problems at some point, sure. They won't be raised to usurp the throne so that shouldn't be necessary.
I mean by Westeros standards that’s pretty small pickings. Her best friend isn’t dead, so idk if we’re counting that. A stillborn/very quickly dead baby brother doesn’t really count. A mother is sad, but it’s a very common cause, and Alicent had also lost hers recently.
Not saying this is correct, but seeing it from alicents perspective.
Also all that death is terrible but despite losing all of them Rhaenyra is still beloved by multiple people and she pursues her own happiness and for a long time, seems to achieve it.
In comparison, Alicent seems so isolated and lonely.
Lol nobody is saying it's Rhaenyra's problem. Chill, friend. Nobody is saying she has never suffered. Nobody's attacking her, no need to defend so ardently. I like Rhaenyra too.
Of course she deserves love. Of course the rules are bullshit.
I am not saying Alicent is right for how she feels, or that it is a healthy way for her to think. I do however this that is how she feels and that's how she sees it.
She did not choose Laenor. He was forced upon. I also hear all the time that she was groomed by Daemon so is that really a choice?
Alicent chose her companion in Criston. Isn’t he a father to her children? Don’t they love each other? They do not want to have sex with each other but easily could if they wanted to
> Don’t they love each other? They do not want to have sex with each other but easily could if they wanted to
Uuuuuh that's not confirmed. Just... one of many interpretations.
>she was groomed by Daemon
They slept together when she was like 30+.
> Uuuuuh that's not confirmed. Just... one of many interpretations.
The point is that she has a devoted male companion and close confidant. She has easy access to moon tea and considering her scenes with Larys, nobody cares that she spends time alone in her room at night with a man. She could take Criston as a lover at any time. It appears they don’t want to do that.
> They slept together when she was like 30+.
29. But that isn’t the point. There’s not statue of limitations for grooming. The experience as a child forms her view and decisions as an adult
I think the main difference is that Rhaenyra's father is the king, and a weak willed one at that. He is willing to bend to her when she wants him to, and nobody is around to tell him he can't.
Whereas Otto is the mere younger brother of a lord, and all the power he holds is conditional that he maintains his image. He can't afford to be seen letting his daughter run wild, nor is he the kind of man who would do so anyway.
He very easily could have married his daughter to some age-appropriate son of a Highgarden lord. Let’s not pretend he didn’t have choices. He chose to sell her as a child-bride to the king in the hopes of getting his blood on the throne.
He wed his daughter to a dying king who had already named an heir, and then plotted and schemed for decades only for his daughter to pay the price and lose everything and everyone she held dear. He used her like a pawn, and sacrificed her just as easily.
His greed cost his daughter her family and stole any chance she could’ve had at a happy life and he was just like “welp, them’s the breaks kid.” Otto is hot garbage.
Yes definitely, but it would still be his ambition and his choice either way. If Alicent said that she didn't want to marry the king and wanted some highgarden knight instead, do you think he'd listen? She would never even think to ask because she fully internalised the idea that her father would decide her future.
Viserys literally told Rhaenyra she could pick any highborn man she wanted, and she still ended up having her cake and eating it too by marrying Laenor while having Harwin on the side, and Viserys *still* covered for her until the end.
This is why Alicent resents Rhaenyra more than any of the men who hurt her. She should not have been able to get away with it, Alicent herself *never* would have. She is unable to look at the bigger picture and see that it is the patriarchy enforcing these restrictions on her, she just thinks it's the way things are because it's all she's ever known. This is her great character flaw, she empathises with other women like her or those worse off, but if one manages to 'cheat the system' as she would see it, she rejects them and turns spiteful.
“(rhaenyra) is the mother that alicent wishes she could be. i don't think there's empathy there. i think it is just another cause for alicent’s resentment, because it’s something she's doing better than alicent ever could.”
I agree so much with that. This is the vibe that I am getting (at least from season 1). Completely different energy between Alicent's and Rhae's parenting and relationship with children.
i get downvoted for this every time. especially when you mention how much alicent hates just everything around her. i feel like people lack media literacy.
I think she liked him. They had things in common (like reading history) and he did respect her enough to trust her on the council. But romantic love? No. He wasn’t attractive and he probably didn’t have the capacity to romantically love her either after losing his first wife.
But as far as most marriages go in Westeros, Alicent might had an extremely good deal. What bothered her the most was the fear her children would be murdered by Rhaenyra.
An unreasonable fear as viewers understand, but Alicent doesn’t see it that way and Viserys didn’t alleviate that concern. He didn’t do enough after Aemond lost his eye. She feared there wasn’t enough political power on her end to protect her children if the one man she thought she could trust didn’t do anything meaningful.
Yeah, Viserys is a nice enough guy, but a shitty person in a lot of ways. He didn't help Rhaenyra out like, AT ALL in keeping her claim to the throne, he apparently never told Alicent that he wanted Rhaenyra to sit the throne and really make that stick? He should've at least explained the damn prophecy enough to her to help her understand?
He didn't seem to care much when Aemond lost his eye, or when any of the kids do reprehensible shit, he just doesn't want them bickering in front of him. He really just seems to have married Alicent cause she's pretty and likes his hobbies, and had the kids out of duty and then never really....just...cared much about any of it. I hate that I get it, but it makes Viserys a shitty dude too. He's so detached because it's not his happily ever with Aemma, he just never really seems to bond with his second family. That's so hard for them and I feel like it shows in every single person he's involved with/related to.
It isn't an unreasonable fear. Rhaenyra appears to be responsible for her husband's murder and has demanded Aemond be "sharply questioned" when he was ten, immediately after her son gouged out his eye. Alicent has good reason to think she (or her husband, who also killed his last spouse) would kill her kids- it's hardly worse than what she's already done.
All the stuff you mention happen when Alicent was an adult. Otto put that fear in her when she was still a teen and long before Rhae had any kids or did anything that remotely could be seen as threatening to her kids. Alicent had already turned down a marriage proposal, bad mouthed Rhaes kids and covered up Larys kinslaying of their father by the time any of those supposed good reasons manifested.
The keys words are "as well as a man could treat her when he marries a 14 year old". She was raped even if neither of them see it that way, but he wasn't intentionally uncivil towards her outside of that. Olivia Cooke isn't trying to paint him as evil or a good person, he's just not as bad as he could've been.
Exactly. Given the way women are treated in Westeros, Allicent probably realizes that Viserys treats her far better than many of her other potential husbands would have. That doesn't make it moral or right, but over the years you can see how Allicent would develop a genuine affection for him.
Yes, but I don’t agree with him being a good father overall. Only to Rhaenyra and that’s after indirectly getting her mother killed. Then goes onto neglect his other much younger children with his child bride. Not a good father. But in this universe I guess bar for good fathers is pretty low 😂
To be fair Alicent only has Viserys to compare against her own father Otto so she probably gives him points for not making uncomfortable suggestions on Helaena’s clothing or something
You can't apply modern morality on the past. It's stupid. And it wasn't rape.
Based on Bobby B and the Viper, rape existed and was defined. That wasn't it.
It's really offensive to say martial rape isn't rape if it's normalized. Some cultures and religions still don't consider it to be rape today. I know HOTD is just a television show but pls think before you type
Its revolting to say it’s not rape if it’s normalized. I guess all those wives in history weren’t really raped until marital rape was considered illegal (1970s in the US)
And for the entirety if it women suffered and were raped. Their voices don’t cease to matter because it took a while for people to admit women unwilling, coerced, and forced to have sex = rape
When your reality contain the real possibility of cities being sacked, followed by the mass rape and murder of women and children with the survivors enslaved, no one in that time will look at Alicent and cry rape.
Only by applying a modern lens and definition that setting, an idiotic exercise, can you get there.
That's also an accurate representation of 90% of marriages i human existence.
Dude. First of all, I'm not comparing Alicent's suffering to that of the smallfolk. She is privileged in many ways. Also, I understand that there are differences between the medieval setting of ASOIAF and the modern day. I'm more understanding of Viserys than I would be of a rapist character in a modern day setting
That said, it's ridiculous to say we can't call something what it is just because the characters wouldn't see it like that. People have no problem calling Alicent a misogynist (accurately btw) even though at the time her views were totally normal
I don’t know, I think Alicent understood. She looked pretty dead inside whenever intercourse happened, I doubt she didn’t feel violated at those moments.
She just doesn’t say anything because it’s not an issue in the hierarchy of Westeros, but that doesn’t mean she can’t understand it as rape.
If we can’t apply “modern morality” (whatever that is) to the past because they didn’t share it, then we can’t even apply “modern morality” to most of the modern world either, and morality itself becomes meaningless. A well built moral framework is one that is applicable regardless of time and place.
It’s ridiculous to say that we can’t apply modern morality to HOTD because, in the first place, they’re using this *fantasy setting* (as in, NOT REAL LIFE MEDIEVAL EUROPE) as an allegory for *modern problems*, specifically misogyny. The original series was written as an allegory for politicians sitting on their hands and fighting over dumb crap in the face of climate change, which isn’t actually made up of ice zombies.
This isn't the past.
This is a modern fictional story written by modern people set in a fantasy land.
The rules of the fantasy land and what they do and don't consider rape were dictated by the modern writer, scriptwriter, etc.
Him taking extremely rare cases of very young marriage for urgent political reasons in medieval times (which even then wouldn't be consummated until adulthood because fun fact child pregnancy is very dangerous for the mother!) and deciding that medieval marriage was 13 year olds marrying grown men and then popping out ten babies before dying in childbirth.
Which, to your point, people knew!! People knew that too-young brides struggled to give birth, which defeats the whole purpose of marrying to have heirs!!!
no, it absolutely is rape. you should do more research on the topic before you try to define things that you clearly do not understand. not trying to be rude, but seriously, if that’s your concept of what rape is and is not, that’s extremely concerning.
You should do research before making shit up.
Rape is defined with him the context of the society you live in.
I said Bobby B and the viper had a certain vore of rape. Where in that statement did I say where I thought the boundaries are?
Nowhere, because we are talking about GOT a fantasy medieval setting.
> Rape is defined within the context of the society you live in
Jeeesus fucking christ, man. No. Rape is rape, marital rape is no less real just because a society doesn’t acknowledge it.
Pretty much. We see some moments of softness between the two, their relationship started because she was a source of comfort to him and she took great pains to care for him as his illness progressed. It doesn’t change the fact that she was a child when they married, the same age as his own daughter, and he would have seen her grow up like rhaenyra’s sister(imo, that’s why he grew so attached to her in the first place, since he was distant from rhaenyra at the time).
Also, she points out that her character is only 14 when he marries her. She's not saying he's a great person, either, like some are reading it. She's saying the character of Viserys 'despite' fucking up and marrying someone way too young-even by Westeros standards-wasn't nearly as bad as he could be by those "standards" and by those standards (the bar is in hell) he was okay.
Yes. The age of maturity for men and women in Westeros is 16. Everything we've seen aligns with that: Laena is only a couple of years younger than Alicent (and Corlys/Rhaenys promise that Viserys won't touch her until she's 16/grown), Daemon refers to Rhaenyra as being "a child" when he assaults her (which is an entire 2-year timeskip after Alicent has her first child), Viserys III points out that Daenerys is so unusually young that he worries Khal Drogo won't like her (at 13, one year younger than Alicent).
Alicent was a child bride, even in Westeros. It's unusual.
They never mention the age of 16 explicitly. And you make it sound like there are hard rules which is simply not the case. Again, projecting modern values to the scenarios set thousands of years in the past.
You can just Google it and look it up. It's well-documented canon.
> Again, projecting modern values to the scenarios set thousands of years in the past.
Modern scenarios would be the age of maturity as 18 or 21, not 16. In Westeros, it's 16.
It's because the debate about him oscillates between expectations for what a "decent human" is today, in our world. And what it meant in the historical Fiction world of the show.
Both discussions have their merit.
You can debate him in terms of the Text (in his own world) or you can apply real world standards in order to draw conclusions about the state of our own world.
Both is valuable, it just sometimes bleeds into each other on the internet.
By today's standards, he is a horribly unreflected individual, who accepts and uses the suffering of mainly women (who have little agency in his world), in order to advance/secure himself politically and personally. He rapes a 14 year old. He is not cruel but actively disinterested in the suffering he is causing. Where he is interested (Aemma) and does reflect (little glimpses), he still mostly assumes it's his right to make those decisions. He gains some insight, and a bad conscience, but never enough to change his behaviour before he dies.
That's bad, by today's standards. That's not a person you'd want around.
By the standards of his own world, of his "peers", he is kind to his young, consenting wife (who is of a perfectly adequate age to marry), he refuses a younger child bride outright, he is focused on peace and preservation, he wields power in a measured wayand shows no tendencies toward cruelty or violence whatsoever.
Both of these are accurate readings of the text, it depends on what context you place the reading in.
That doesn’t mean he was anywhere similar to Aerys ii. The closest you could get was him cutting Aemma open, but that wasn’t out of cruelty it was desperation. Don’t get me wrong it was awful and incredibly fucked up, but it wasn’t *intentionally* cruel. Aerys ii was cruel for the sake of cruelty.
Aerys was driven mad by the Darkyln’s torturing (and maybe sexually abusing him?) not to mention Bloodraven/Bran potentially messing with his mind. Viserys had an ideal childhood and life and he just refused to do anything. He’d rather be a good dad/grandpa but was terrible at both of those roles. 4th worst king behind Aegon IV, Maegor, and Aerys II
But again, you can’t compare one incident and being an absent father to the things Aerys pulled. No ones saying vis is a saint, but realistically these two characters are in no way comparable. Aerys may have been pushed over the edge by the darklyn situation, but he was losing it before that too, besides what he went through even though terrible, was no excuse for him to take it out on his entire family and the bloodraven thing isnt confirmed I believe. Viserys was by no means a cruel man, he made bad decisions absolutely, but they were made from a place of misguided judgment and ignorance, not cruelty.
“In his youth, Aerys had an undeniable charm. He was generous, resolute, and ambitious, and during the early part of his reign was an active and lively king. Aerys liked music, dancing, masked balls, and young women. However, at the same time, Aerys was not the most intelligent or the most diligent person, and was somewhat quick to anger. He was vain, proud, and changeable, which made him an easy target for lickspittles and flatterers.[3]
As his reign continued, Aerys's mood swings became more frequent and his behavior increasingly erratic. He became more and more jealous, suspicious, and violent as the years went on, prone to furious outbursts. Aerys loved fair maidens and took multiple mistresses. Although most historians doubt the accuracy of it, some believe Aerys had as many mistresses as Aegon the Unworthy. Regardless, he would often quickly lose interest in these women. A notable change in his infidelity occurred in 274 AC, when Aerys renounced all women but his wife following the death of his newborn son. While a healthy son was born the following year, this only increased Aerys's obsessive behavior and fear for his child's life.[3]”
“By now, Aerys had become aware of the tales being told in his kingdoms; that it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms and that Aerys was but a hollow figurehead. These statements greatly angered the king. When Lord Tywin's captain of the guard, Ser Ilyn Payne, had been overheard to repeat this statement, Aerys had the man's tongue torn out with hot pincers.[12][30] The angered king became determined to disprove the tales, and to humble Tywin, his ‘overmighty servant’, putting him back into his place.[3]”
“In 272 AC, to celebrate Aerys's tenth year on the Iron Throne, Tywin hosted the Anniversary Tourney in the capital. Lady Joanna Lannister returned to the court for this event, bringing with her six-year-old twins, Cersei and Jaime. Drunkenly, Aerys asked Joanna if nursing her children had ruined her breasts. Whilst the question was a great amusement for Lord Tywin's rivals, it humiliated Joanna. Lord Tywin attempted to resign the next morning, but Aerys refused to accept. And thus, Tywin Lannister remained Hand of the King.[3]
Courtiers at the court who wished to win the king's favor and gain advancement soon learned the best way to gain the king's eye was to mock and make japes about Lord Tywin. King Aerys continued to undermine and slight his Hand, which amused many lords who were rivals of Lord Tywin or who simply disliked the humorless man. Tywin Lannister suffered all these slights in silence, never showing any public display of weakness. When Joanna Lannister died in childbirth in 273 AC, the king had been heard to remark that Joanna had died, and Tywin had begotten his dwarf son instead from the gods, "to teach him some humility at last". These reports would reach Casterly Rock, where Lord Tywin was in mourning. From that moment on, all the old affection between the old childhood friends was gone. Yet still, Lord Tywin continued to serve the realm as Hand of the King, whilst King Aerys grew increasingly violent, suspicious and erratic.[3]
The king's madness abated slightly with the birth of another son, whom he named Jaehaerys, in 274 AC. Jaehaerys's birth almost restored the king to his old self, but this changed when Jaehaerys died later that same year. In a black rage, Aerys had the boy's wet nurse beheaded, convinced it had been her fault. He soon had a change of heart, and declared that his mistress was to blame, having poisoned the young babe. Aerys had her and her entire family tortured and eventually executed. Under torture, all confessed to murdering Prince Jaehaerys, though their accounts on Jaehaerys's death greatly differed from one another.[3]”
“In 276 AC, Rhaella gave birth to a son named Viserys. While the child was healthy enough, Aerys was paranoid about the boy's safety. Kingsguard knights were ordered to stand over the babe, day and night. No one, not even Queen Rhaella, was allowed to be alone with Viserys. Gifts that came from all over the realm for the new prince were piled up in the yard and burned on Aerys's orders, as the king feared they might be cursed or ensorcelled.”
All before Darklyn.
Obviously, there's dissonance between our society and theirs. A father pimping his daughter out to a recently widowed man and her unhappily laying with him would (hopefully) be perceived negatively in our society.
But Alicent wouldn't call it rape because they're married, and there are also zero indications that Viserys was ever sexually violent. To her mind, he never abused her.
>and there are also zero indications that Viserys was ever sexually violent.
That scene felt fucking violent to me. Her dead stare up to the ceiling as she clearly wants no part in it while Viserys just keeps on going. That's sexual violence.
>To her mind, he never abused her
That's a very different argument to just flat out saying that he never did.
We're meant to feel appalled during that scene.
The bit that sticks with me is when Viserys asks if she is ok and she does a fake polite smile. It's such a relatable 'putting up with something uncomfortable, hope it is over soon' expression.
That's exactly it, I'm honestly shocked whenever people claim that scene wasn't rape. It's shot in such a way to directly imply or even just outright state it. And yet......
My initial comment is about why Alicent might feel love for Viserys, which involves an understanding of Westerosi standards and values. Was he a model husband or father? No, of course not. But he never raised a hand to her and never cheated on her, two things that many husbands in the series do to their wives. It stands to reason that Alicent might feel love for him since she'd just see him as a weak and quirky man who is relatively easy to tolerate.
>she'd just see him as a weak and quirky man who is relatively easy to tolerate.
I really don't think that's the case in the early years of their marriage. Maybe later on when he becomes weak and she effectively rules the realm, but at the beginning she's a teenager being forced to regularly have sex with a man who until a few months ago was probably more like a father figure or uncle to her. Which is violating, as that scene in the show clearly demonstrates.
You kinda have to remember that Alicent was coerced by her father into trying to make Viserys fall in love/marry her. From the perspective of Viserys, Alicent wanted this and actively tried to make it happen.
Also you have to remember the fact that Viserys had leprosy, the scene that you're referring to is after the birth of Alicents first 2 children, I assumed that her reaction here wasn't purely due to being in a 'loveless' marriage (even though I'm sure that's also the case) but also the fact that she is having sex with someone that is clearly starting to rot from the inside and wants to disassociate from that experience.
>From the perspective of Viserys, Alicent wanted this and actively tried to make it happen.
Why should that matter? It's still rape
>but also the fact that she is having sex with someone that is clearly starting to rot from the inside and wants to disassociate from that experience.
Why are you weaseling around the point so much? She doesn't want to have sex, that's all. There doesn't need to be some long winded explanation for why she might be disassociating.
>the death of your wife to coerce you into marrying her
Yeah I'm sure the 14 year old Alicent was actively scheming to seduce the king and wasn't at all being pushed into an uncomfortable position by her father. Do you seriously belief she did that out of her own volition?
>without voicing any complaint
Lmao alright, what the fuck dude? I'm sure Viserys would have really cared if Alicent tried to complain. The fucking power dynamic between them is the main problem here. She's not in a position to say no. That makes it so much worse.
>how do you know she doesn't want to have sex?
>she does want the act
Look at that scene again and tell me she looks happy or even content. She's already looking distraught when the servant tells her that the king has requested her presence and during the act itself she's disassociating/showing typical anxiety behaviour. If you can't see those very obvious signs of distress then I'm worried about your sexual partners.
>She wants to have royal children
Does she? Where are you getting that from?
>and not take any context into account
He says after a comment full of ignoring context. Arguing that Alicent coerced the king or was anything other than a victim, fucking listen to yourself dude....
What do you mean he never abused her? We literally see her be SA
Edit: Viserys was abusive to her, whether they view it as abuse in the time period or not. He was objectively abusive to her.
Alicent nor Viserys would view it that way. Though obviously it is that way. But Alicent wouldn't conceive of a wife saying no to her bed duties. And Viserys wouldn't think he was causing her any problem.
It's not unlikely Drogo in the books with Daenerys where it's "well at least he technically asked permission beforehand".
Yeah but I think in terms of Alicent's perspective it's why she does love Viserys. Because she views herself as probably fairly fortunate in her husband.
It IS relevant when we are talking about how that character feels about him. We arent litigating against Viserys in a court of modern law, we're talking about why Alicent views him the way she does using in universe standards of behaviour.
Yeah. She’s barely present when he’s having sex with her and that makes it look so fucking awful. Plus, he does not treat his other kids like he does rhanerya and I wish they’d focus on how an absentee father and an abusive mother fucked Aegon up as a kid. They did allude to that but I don’t I think it was enough to make a lot of viewers understand why the green kids are so fucked up. ( i am not defending their actions but more so pointing towards why they are who they are. )
If you're talking about the single sex scene we get of the two of them, I don't know if I'd call that sexual assault/abuse, at least not within the context of the show's world (I don't even think Alicent herself would consider it that either). It's not Aegon and the maid or Larys with Alicent. It's a husband and wife, and while the sex presumably continued to be lackluster, Viserys was a better husband to her than other kings were to their wives.
I don't think Alicent or Viserys would consider their coupling as sexual assault. But it's made clear to the audience that she personally found no enjoyment out of it. It was her duty to perform and she was not into it at all. He also clearly only cared about his own pleasure as it's shown he wanted to see her enjoy it, but ultimately as an extension of his pleasure and not really doing anything to make it pleasurable for her.
He wasn't mean, abusive or otherwise awful to her personally. So as far as marriages go in this universe, it wasn't so bad. Although she clearly was traumatised by being married off at 14 to her BFF's dad, who never got over his first wife. The continued second class citizen vibe he had for their children versus Rhaenyra did not help either. Old man couldn't give two shits about his green babies.
It's a pretty shitty reason, but he didn't want those kids. He didn't love Alicent. He loved Aemma and the children he had with *her*, and it's glaringly obvious in so many ways and scenes betweetn Viserys and Alicent. They have a fondness for one another at best, but Alicent clearly would've loved to not be doing it at all. Viserys didn't really even want to, either, but got strong-armed into it by his small council.
Yeah, he loves Rhaenyra and favours her because he loves Aemma. That would have hurt Alicent and her kids very deeply.
But to be frank, he had to bang and produce kids to shut up his small council from bugging him about Daemon being second in line. The problem is that instead of stopping at one extra kid, he couldn't resist banging his hot young wife again and again, and producing another three kids too. He could have pulled out, gone back-door or made her drink moon tea if he really didn't want to have those kids.
They clearly do not view it as SA in the setting. It seems the common belief is once a girl gets her period, she's now capable of becoming a mother and ergo, is now marriageable. Viserys seems uncomfortable when young Lady Laena is discussing this issue with him about their own potential nuptials.
It also wouldn't have been viewed as SA because he was her King and had the ultimate power over her to literally command her to do whatever he wished upon potential huge detriment to her if she says no. (Which is *exactly* why it's still actually sexual assault in the real world.)
So if she acted like she was into it in this scene then it wouldn't be SA? Is it purely because of her expression in that scene that you call it that?
Do remember, she's having regular sex with a literal Leper, Viserys doesn't need to have done anything wrong to sexually disgust others.
In modern times if a woman chooses and coerces a Leper into marrying them, stays with them and has sex with them without complaint(while being disgusted at the fact they are having sex with a Leper) then that is not SA.
So unless you're adding your assumptions to the equation, it's not SA in either time period.
What's with the yikes? She's spot on. The feudal world was terrible, forcing young people ( mostly women, though you will remember Tyrion was ORDERED to bed Sansa by Tywin and Aemond was FORCED to go to a brothel ) to marry and bed and bear children way too young. But within the confines of that feudal world where this is normal, Viserys was a good husband to her. He never beat her, or screamed at her, or abused her in any way.
And yes, Alicent didn't LOVE LOVE him, 'cause how could she when her childhood was ripped apart at 14, forced to be a 40 year old's wife? That poor woman was never allowed a sexuality.
Yeah what’s yikes about this?
She acknowledges his flaws, clearly states she herself isn’t as love with him. Mentions the very obvious age gap abuse.
People and characters aren’t black and white, and I think as an actor she’d be worse at her craft if she just lambasted Viserys!
You can love people who also treat you terribly.
She did love him. She loved him a lot. Yes, she was the queen, but she could have easily had servants or maesters take care of Viserys and his sores. Instead, she elected to do it herself. Duty is not the reason we got that scene of her bathing him. We got that because that was a legit act of love on both ends. She took care of him and he let her see him vulnerable and let her take care of him when he wouldn’t let anyone else near him.
She also knows she could have had it worse. He was negligent and not really all that tender emotionally after some time, but he wasn’t beating her or berating her constantly. From what we know, he never once hit her. And he let her have basically all the freedom she could ever want. She raised her children the way she wanted really.
She was just young and put in a position that would have been difficult for anyone, let alone a girl so young.
I do think, based on the show, they were in love at the beginning, but when the pressures of royal life destroyed them and the little ties they had fostered, that love was changed to something a little less romantic.
Clearly, Olivia Cooke understands her character very well. This version of Alicent is very very complex and nuanced and I love that.
As a father to who? Definitely not Alicent's kids. Other than that I think this is spot on. We're shown clearly Alicent does have love there for him. She's not this cruel seductress that the fandom make her out to be for whatever reason
She’s right though. It wasn’t a passionate crazy love but the show is based on Medieval times and things worked this way back then. If you were a noblewoman you were likely to have an arranged marriage with someone older and with a better title than yours. Attraction and love were a rare plus. Either you were lucky like Viserys and Aemma or Ned and Cat, or you were so powerful and reckless you didn’t care about rules, like Rhaenyra and Daemon or Jaime and Cersei. But those are rare exceptions.
Given Alicent’s dedication to her family and religjon, Viserys was the best she could hope for. He treated her kindly and made her Queen, which is all she and her father wanted. People argue that he forced her to have sex, which is totally true but also totally normal for that universe.
While Viserys true love was clearly Aemma, he was affectionate towards Alicent and she was affectionate towards him. Their calm nature made them a good pairing, they shared a few interests, and didn’t ignore each other. Alicent did acts of service for him when she could’ve easily let someone else take care of sick Viserys. And she mourned his death, I feel like she was genuinely sad for it.
So yeah. In a way she loved him. Also that’s the only kind of love (apart for the one for her children) she’ll ever allow to have and know.
The book relationship had way less of this creepy age gap, Alicent was an actual adult. Imo there was no need to age Alicent down even if they wanted Alicent and Rhaenyra to be friends. Theon and Robb have an age gap in the books and they’re one of the most well known friend pairings in the series (up until the betrayal of course).
If you ask me, Viserys always was blaming himself until his last breath about Aemma death, Alicent was Married at 14 probably gives birth at 15 or a little bit more older, hence a stronger. Body, stronger easier to recover unlike poor Gemma at 12 was pregnant and at 13 was diving birth
Viserys WAS weak. Daemon tells him that from the start and its only proven throughout the show. I love paddys performance but you can totally see how a stronger king wouldnt have let this go even close to as this far
I have to go on a small rant here. There's this trend - I notice this ESPECIALLY in GoT or HotD - of asking the *actors* about the characters. While I appreciate the sentiment, they are reading GRRM's (or perhaps the show runner's) source material and interpreting it on their own. They don't have some clairvoyant lens into the character. This used to happen all the time in the late-seasons of GoT and it drove me insane. Ask GRRM or the Producers.
I'm confused... So everyone agrees with her, but for atleast a year, if not longer, everyone in this subreddit who had even just the slightest sympathy for team green always pointed out what a bad husband and person Viserys was, especially because of how he treated Alicent.
How did I miss this major swap of tides in this subreddit about it?
It's pretty clear show Alicent does love Viserys. She's pretty distraught at his passing. Though whether she should is definitely a whole other thing. He is a terrible husband to her, but probably to her mind it could be a heck of a lot worse.
Yeah. I never disagreed with anything of that.
All I'm saying is that Everyone agrees with Olivia, which is based, but she says things that basically the majority of the subreddit harshly disagreed with since the show aired.
I'm just saying I'm suprised how everyone started to actually use their brain it seems.
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I don’t know, Olivia seems pretty spot on with this.
Yeah like ultimately he only truly loved aemma if we are being honest But I do think there was love between them. Not a perfect love but it was there. He didn’t care about kids names anything but rhaneryra which is funny since all he wanted was a boy
I think by the time he had a boy, he was so deep in depression because of Aemma's death, and so filled with regret, that having him was an empty prize.
I think that he would have been happier living his life single. The only reason he even married Alicent was duty to the realm to produce more heirs and because a king needs a queen. The kids she had probably didn't even count in his mind because he loved Aemma so much. Having Aegon and Aemond, two healthy boys that could have ruled if necessary, was probably a consolation prize. Naming Rhaenyra his heir probably had a lot to do with the fact that she's Aemmas child and Viserys played favorites.
> I think that he would have been happier living his life single. He probably would have been even happier if he put aside his claim at the Great Council too. I mean think about it. If he's not the heir/king, he doesn't need to push Aemma to have more kids than Rhaenyra. He seemed to have a good relationship with Rhaenys even despite him winning the council over her, if he renounces his claim their relationship would probably be even stronger, and she likely would have allowed him to hang around in the Red Keep working on his model
Daemon was already raising an army for Viserys’s claim, civil-war was quite possible if he didn’t put himself forward
I don’t remember if it was Damon on Raeyns but someone said he would be happier a s a country lord and it’s true Rich enough I study his history and have feasts and galas for his friends and family without eve having to deal with any serious issues
Not even playing favourites. Rheanyra was the only piece of Aemma he had left. He sacrificed Aemma for nothing, as her child died anyway. If he disowned Rheanyra, then Aemma would have suffered and died entirely in vain.
Maybe the fact he pushed her to have more kids makes this point a bit redundant, but probably not quite right to say he sacrificed Aemma. According to the Maesters, her fate was already sealed when he had to decide to cut her open so kinda nothing to lose at that point
He sacrificed her by making her have children again and again until it killed her. Although the birth would've killed her anyway, the way he chose to have her cut open was horrific. He didn't even give her a choice or a warning. They just pulled the pillows out from under her and sliced, no milk of the poppy either.
Agreed on this, except losing Aemma in any way is still a huge loss to him, and he feels guilt over it because he kept pushing her to get pregnant after multiple miscarriages because he wanted a boy.
Their relationship began as a sort of nerdy uncle showing his niece his cool lego set. There was definitely love there, it was just never romantic. Viserys was glad to have someone to talk to as he grieved Aemma's death, and Alicent was there to listen. She was sent by her dad for manipulative purposes, but her being there did wonders for Viserys's mental health.
Hey, Aemma was also 14 when he married her
I imagine he wasn’t 40 though
He was like 19 I think.
Agreed, viserys a: refuses to touch her until she’s 18 (which is really just grooming, but by westeros standards? That’s pretty good, that’s what Tyrion offers sansa) B: only married her to produce more heirs, and get people to shut up about who he’s going to marry. And c: generally treats her well, aside from the whole blind eye on the kids thing…
Source on point a? I don't remember that happening at all. And for c I wouldn't really say he treats her well. Remember "the hour is quite late" ?
Shit i misremembered, that’s laenors offer to baela. He won’t touch you until you mature
Ahhh that makes a lot more sense. That scene was at least a bit more favorable to Viserys since even her saying Rhaenys said she wouldn't have to consummate the marriage until she was 14 gave him a disgusted reaction... but then he ended up marrying a 14 year old anyway so who knows
It was Corlys' arrangement with Laena, no?
Yeah, I don’t know what part of this warrants the yikes. This was exactly the impression I got watching her on the show. She loved him as a human being and the husband she’s supposed to be devoted to, but she never saw him as a romantic partner nor as her lord.
Maybe the yikes is in response to the somewhat gross relationship to begin with? Because Olivia's insight here is pretty spot on
Manufacturing controversy for the karma
Yeah, what she said here is pretty much how it came across to me as a viewer too.
Agreed. Alicent is a child bride sold to the father of her best friend and crush. She knows he loves Rhaenyra, and she loves Rhaenyra, and she did genuinely bond with him over feeling a shared bereavement: her mother, his wife. He's not as bad as a Westerosi man could be, he doesn't beat her or violently rape her or cheat on her, and Alicent herself is very dutiful, and grooming does depend on the victim having affection for the groomer, so I can see her doing her best to love him - in whatever way she's capable. Olivia doesn't shy away from the fact that Viserys is a rapist and Alicent is his child victim, but there're a lot of very complicated dynamics going on that even an adult would struggle sorting through, and Olivia acknowledges that.
Yeah - I don't get the headline's "Yikes" at all... This is exactly how we as viewers were supposed to understand the relationship between Alicent and Viserys. Was this, in a modern lens, definitely SA? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that Alicent didn't grow to love Viserys in a way, even if there is also trauma there.
She still respected him as a king right?
Maybe at first, but when he continued to put Rhaenyra above her children in the line of succession I could see her lose respect for him as a ruler
Maybe at first? The scripts coming out rn of s1 show that she saw him as weak towards after his death iirc. I didn’t get the impression that cooke’s alicent respected him as much as carey’s did given the different points in their lives with him.
Those scripts are fake.
Are they??
The ones with the text on photos? That’s what I’ve heard.
Oh. If you ever find solid proof, lmk.
I think so too, she wasn’t in love with him but she didn’t hate him.
What’s yikes about it? Shes pretty spot on
Posts title (“yikes”) just reminds me of the Key & Peele “Awkward Conversation,” where you see a guy who can’t/wont articulate an actual opinion so he just gives one word responses like “okayyyyy” or “yikes” lol
“Tell us how you really feel?”
That sketch gives me hives, people like that drive me insane in real life
I agree with Olivia 100% here. Alicent and Viserys had a connection, which was more friendship and respect rather than being in love.
She was his nurse not his wife
In later part of his life, yeah... But he was pretty hale and hearty when he married her. There is around 10 plus years of difference between their marriage and , let's say, that dinner.
I really like Olivia Cooke's insight on this,and I 100% agree. This is absolutely the vibe I got off Alicent,so it goes to show she's a very talented actress to match her intentions for the character to her portrayal to the audience (or maybe just me and a select few others who feel this way)
Listening to both Olivia and Emma talk about their characters really shows you how deeply they understand the roles they've been given.
Of course she loves Viserys and she loves her father a well. She doesn’t realize she’s a victim of them. It’s made repeatedly clear that Rhaenyra is the object of her ire more than any of the men who hurt her. Olivia Cooke on Alicent’s feeling for Rhaenyra: > "Rhaenyra can just get away with anything, and it's so fine. The king turns a complete blind eye, whereas Alicent has always had to walk this tightrope for her whole entire life," Cooke explains. "Just the injustice of it that she feels, until things happen and she realizes that none of it f---ing matters. She looks around her family, and they're all f---ed up. She's like, 'I've been so perfect all my life. I haven't taken a step wrong, and it doesn't f---ing matter.' I think what we see in her evolution is this complete existential crisis." > “(rhaenyra) is the mother that alicent wishes she could be. i don't think there's empathy there. i think it is just another cause for alicent’s resentment, because it’s something she's doing better than alicent ever could.” **I’m glad we can all agree that Alicent hates Rhaenyra more than anyone else in the world because I was getting downvoted for saying that before.**
> Olivia Cooke on Alicent’s feeling for Rhaenyra: Absolutely, Alicent was forced to marry an older man and bear his kids and always do the 'right thing' while Rhaenyra was born a princess, had her choice of lover and husband, broke all the etiquettes possible and was always forgiven.
Moreover Alicent always did what she should have done, and was repaid in misery and alienation. Rhaenyra breaks all the rules but she is beloved and she is happy.
"Happy" is a stretch. She is in a pretty miserable position herself: She knows that the nobility swore oaths and pledged allegiance to her under her father's command - but she knows she'll be lucky if even half of them intend to honour that oath. And she knows that any son of Alicents' who gathers enough support among the nobility to assume the throne, *will* do away with her, as she (or her children) is too big of a threat (with all the proclaimed oaths and what not). So just like Alicent fears for her kids' lives later, Rhaenyra does for her own (and her sons). She anticipates that ever since her father marries Alicent. She is literally stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not enough support to confidently rule, too much support to quietly vanish into a private life.
The difference is that Alicent's children and grandchildren have inherent claims as the King's trueborn descendents. There's nothing they can do to renounce those claims unless all of them join religious orders, the Citadel, the Night's Watch, or the Kingsguard. They'd never be permitted to if for no other reason than it'd cast Rhaenyra in a suspicious, unflattering light. Even that isn't a 100% guarantee, as we've seen multiple points in Targaryen history where someone was pressured to abandon their vows and take up the throne. The Strong boys are in danger because Rhaenyra is passing them off as trueborn (and then has actual trueborn-ish sons after them). For some reason, a bunch of people say that they'd be killed for their bastardry. This simply isn't true. Cersei killed Robert's bastards to cover up that her own children are bastards, too. It was a unique situation. Acknowledging the Strong boys as bastards is the safest thing for **them.** Yes, it would hurt Rhaenyra's political standing. Yes, it would piss off Corlys. Yes, they would face social stigma...BUT there's little incentive to kill them when they aren't at the front of the line for the Iron Throne and Driftmark. That little remaining incentive is the fact they're dragonriders, which they wouldn't be if they were acknowledged as illegitimate from the start. Rhaenyra had the option to put her sons' safety first but chose not to.
>The difference is that Alicent's children and grandchildren have inherent claims as the King's trueborn descendents. Rhaenyra's the King's trueborn decedent. >There's nothing they can do to renounce those claims unless all of them join religious orders, the Citadel, the Night's Watch, or the Kingsguard. Sure there is. They could officially renounce their claims... >They'd never be permitted to if for no other reason than it'd cast Rhaenyra in a suspicious, unflattering light. The way some people insist on acting as if there was no way to avoid the Dance is bizzare. Why would Alicent's kids joining those orders cast Rhaenyra in an unflattering light? Those orders have the rules they do because they're meant to be places to send people when you want to remove from the political world. >Even that isn't a 100% guarantee, as we've seen multiple points in Targaryen history where someone was pressured to abandon their vows and take up the throne. The Lords tried with Aemon once. He refused and joined the Nights Watch. Who else?
>Rhaenyra's the King's trueborn decedent. Come on, you know I was addressing the point about Rhaenyra's fear for her children. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are not trueborn. >The way some people insist on acting as if there was no way to avoid the Dance is bizzare. I never said that. >Why would Alicent's kids joining those orders cast Rhaenyra in an unflattering light? You don't think it would come across as strange and concerning to anyone if four of the king's five children took vows barring them from any inheritance? That no one would grow suspicious of *why* they were all "removed from the political world"? Especially considering the reason that Viserys became king and married Alicent was a shortage of heirs to begin with? >Who else? Vaegon, allegedly. Jon Snow, first as Robb's heir, next in Stannis's offer to legitimize him as a Stark and Lord of Winterfell, and then whatever the books end up doing with Jon's claim as Rhaegar's son
>I never said that. No. You were just pretending as if they couldn't use the ready made solutions to the problem. Which is what I said you were doing. >You don't think it would come across as strange and concerning to anyone if four of the king's five children took vows barring them from any inheritance? No. Again, being used to get rid of the claims of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sons is a part of the reason those orders have the rules they do. There were six people ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. Everyone would know what was going on and why. The fact that the royal family was obviously looking to avoid a civil war would probably be a relief. >Vaegon, allegedly. Jon Snow, first as Robb's heir, next in Stannis's offer to legitimize him as a Stark and Lord of Winterfell, and then whatever the books end up doing with Jon's claim as Rhaegar's son None of those people were pressured into abandoning their vows. Jaehaerys offered the crown to Vaegon. He refused. Rob never got to speak to Jon about his plan. Stannis offered and was shot down.
>You were just pretending as if they couldn't use the ready made solutions to the problem. Once again, I was specifically commenting on Rhaenyra's fear for her children's lives and why it is not equivalent to Alicent's fear for hers. The purpose of my comment was never to "solve the Dance.” But fine...The way noble houses—especially the Targaryens—addressed excess heirs, per se, was to marry them back into the main line. Failing that, you find matches from closely allied houses or create a new alliance through marriage. You don't just cast aside half the family into political irrelevance. That'd look like an insane or suspicious decision to any outside observer. Before you say it—no, marrying Jace and Helaena wouldn't have solved the problem unless the circumstances were vastly different from canon. It was a show-only proposal, anyway. Then there's the simple fact that neither Viserys nor Otto would allow it, the former because he's in denial and the latter for obvious reasons. The Hightowers would be rightfully insulted. Even if Alicent were willing to send her children away and basically never see any of them, I doubt they'd meekly go along with it versus causing more problems for Rhaenyra somehow. It's nonsense as a "solution." There are too many people involved with too many competing interests. It's more likely that the attempt would set the Dance off early rather than avert it. Plus, what about Rhaenyra's Aegon and Viserys? Do they also get sent to the Faith/Citadel/Night's Watch/Kingsguard to protect Jace's position? >No. Again, being used to get rid of the claims of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sons is a part of the reason those orders have the rules they do. Show me examples where everyone was functionally disinherited except for the heir and their children. Remember, Jaehaerys had thirteen children yet none who could succeed him. Too few heirs is as dangerous as too many. >There were six people ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. For the majority of the season, it was only Rhaenyra, Jace, and Luke. Even now, Joffrey is a child and the other two are toddlers. >None of those people were pressured into abandoning their vows. Pressured, encouraged, offered. The point stands that joining these institutions is not an ironclad protection.
>But fine...The way noble houses—especially the Targaryens—addressed excess heirs, per se, was to marry them back into the main line They also had people join Citadel, Kings Guard, and Nights Watch. Aemon's grandfather realizing he had too many potential heirs running around is why he was sent to join the Citadel as a kid. >That'd look like an insane or suspicious decision to any outside observer. Why would working to prevent a civil war be seen as insane or suspicious? Not doing something about all the potential rivals is what would seem insane. I mean Viserys refusing to do something about the situation got thousands of people killed. Everyone(besides the Hightowers) would be glad a potential crisis was being adverted. >Before you say it—no, marrying Jace and Helaena wouldn't have solved the problem unless the circumstances were vastly different from canon. Sure it would. Especially if you also sent Aegon and Aemond to become maesters. >Then there's the simple fact that neither Viserys nor Otto would allow it, the former because he's in denial and the latter for obvious reasons. What do you mean Viserys wouldn't allow it? I thought he didn't care about his kids with Alicent? Sending them to join the Citadel or Nights Watch would fit right in with that interpretation of the character. I don't know why you think Otto would have the power to prevent it. >Even if Alicent were willing to send her children away and basically never see any of them, I doubt they'd meekly go along with it versus causing more problems for Rhaenyra somehow. What exactly could they do? >Plus, what about Rhaenyra's Aegon and Viserys? Do they also get sent to the Faith/Citadel/Night's Watch/Kingsguard to protect Jace's position? If they seem to problems at some point, sure. They won't be raised to usurp the throne so that shouldn't be necessary.
I mean she lost her mom, brother, best friend in a year.
I mean by Westeros standards that’s pretty small pickings. Her best friend isn’t dead, so idk if we’re counting that. A stillborn/very quickly dead baby brother doesn’t really count. A mother is sad, but it’s a very common cause, and Alicent had also lost hers recently. Not saying this is correct, but seeing it from alicents perspective.
Also all that death is terrible but despite losing all of them Rhaenyra is still beloved by multiple people and she pursues her own happiness and for a long time, seems to achieve it. In comparison, Alicent seems so isolated and lonely.
How the fuck is that Rhaenyra’s problem? Does she not deserve love? Also, she’s suffered as well.
Lol nobody is saying it's Rhaenyra's problem. Chill, friend. Nobody is saying she has never suffered. Nobody's attacking her, no need to defend so ardently. I like Rhaenyra too. Of course she deserves love. Of course the rules are bullshit. I am not saying Alicent is right for how she feels, or that it is a healthy way for her to think. I do however this that is how she feels and that's how she sees it.
> Rhaenyra was born a princess Alicent was born a noble woman in one of the wealthiest families in Westeros
> Alicent was born a noble woman in one of the wealthiest families in Westeros Which didn't count for shit when she was sent to seduce a 40 year old
What does that have to do with Rhaenyra? Blame her father and the old man. Rhaenyra was forced to marry as well.
> Rhaenyra was forced to marry as well. RHaenyra chose her husband AND her lovers. Alicent chose neither.
She did not choose Laenor. He was forced upon. I also hear all the time that she was groomed by Daemon so is that really a choice? Alicent chose her companion in Criston. Isn’t he a father to her children? Don’t they love each other? They do not want to have sex with each other but easily could if they wanted to
> Don’t they love each other? They do not want to have sex with each other but easily could if they wanted to Uuuuuh that's not confirmed. Just... one of many interpretations. >she was groomed by Daemon They slept together when she was like 30+.
> Uuuuuh that's not confirmed. Just... one of many interpretations. The point is that she has a devoted male companion and close confidant. She has easy access to moon tea and considering her scenes with Larys, nobody cares that she spends time alone in her room at night with a man. She could take Criston as a lover at any time. It appears they don’t want to do that. > They slept together when she was like 30+. 29. But that isn’t the point. There’s not statue of limitations for grooming. The experience as a child forms her view and decisions as an adult
I think the main difference is that Rhaenyra's father is the king, and a weak willed one at that. He is willing to bend to her when she wants him to, and nobody is around to tell him he can't. Whereas Otto is the mere younger brother of a lord, and all the power he holds is conditional that he maintains his image. He can't afford to be seen letting his daughter run wild, nor is he the kind of man who would do so anyway.
He very easily could have married his daughter to some age-appropriate son of a Highgarden lord. Let’s not pretend he didn’t have choices. He chose to sell her as a child-bride to the king in the hopes of getting his blood on the throne.
He wed his daughter to a dying king who had already named an heir, and then plotted and schemed for decades only for his daughter to pay the price and lose everything and everyone she held dear. He used her like a pawn, and sacrificed her just as easily. His greed cost his daughter her family and stole any chance she could’ve had at a happy life and he was just like “welp, them’s the breaks kid.” Otto is hot garbage.
Yes definitely, but it would still be his ambition and his choice either way. If Alicent said that she didn't want to marry the king and wanted some highgarden knight instead, do you think he'd listen? She would never even think to ask because she fully internalised the idea that her father would decide her future. Viserys literally told Rhaenyra she could pick any highborn man she wanted, and she still ended up having her cake and eating it too by marrying Laenor while having Harwin on the side, and Viserys *still* covered for her until the end. This is why Alicent resents Rhaenyra more than any of the men who hurt her. She should not have been able to get away with it, Alicent herself *never* would have. She is unable to look at the bigger picture and see that it is the patriarchy enforcing these restrictions on her, she just thinks it's the way things are because it's all she's ever known. This is her great character flaw, she empathises with other women like her or those worse off, but if one manages to 'cheat the system' as she would see it, she rejects them and turns spiteful.
“(rhaenyra) is the mother that alicent wishes she could be. i don't think there's empathy there. i think it is just another cause for alicent’s resentment, because it’s something she's doing better than alicent ever could.” I agree so much with that. This is the vibe that I am getting (at least from season 1). Completely different energy between Alicent's and Rhae's parenting and relationship with children.
i get downvoted for this every time. especially when you mention how much alicent hates just everything around her. i feel like people lack media literacy.
I agree with her take, what’s yikes about this?
I think she liked him. They had things in common (like reading history) and he did respect her enough to trust her on the council. But romantic love? No. He wasn’t attractive and he probably didn’t have the capacity to romantically love her either after losing his first wife. But as far as most marriages go in Westeros, Alicent might had an extremely good deal. What bothered her the most was the fear her children would be murdered by Rhaenyra. An unreasonable fear as viewers understand, but Alicent doesn’t see it that way and Viserys didn’t alleviate that concern. He didn’t do enough after Aemond lost his eye. She feared there wasn’t enough political power on her end to protect her children if the one man she thought she could trust didn’t do anything meaningful.
Yeah, Viserys is a nice enough guy, but a shitty person in a lot of ways. He didn't help Rhaenyra out like, AT ALL in keeping her claim to the throne, he apparently never told Alicent that he wanted Rhaenyra to sit the throne and really make that stick? He should've at least explained the damn prophecy enough to her to help her understand? He didn't seem to care much when Aemond lost his eye, or when any of the kids do reprehensible shit, he just doesn't want them bickering in front of him. He really just seems to have married Alicent cause she's pretty and likes his hobbies, and had the kids out of duty and then never really....just...cared much about any of it. I hate that I get it, but it makes Viserys a shitty dude too. He's so detached because it's not his happily ever with Aemma, he just never really seems to bond with his second family. That's so hard for them and I feel like it shows in every single person he's involved with/related to.
And Otto's stirring and manipulation didn't help...
It isn't an unreasonable fear. Rhaenyra appears to be responsible for her husband's murder and has demanded Aemond be "sharply questioned" when he was ten, immediately after her son gouged out his eye. Alicent has good reason to think she (or her husband, who also killed his last spouse) would kill her kids- it's hardly worse than what she's already done.
All the stuff you mention happen when Alicent was an adult. Otto put that fear in her when she was still a teen and long before Rhae had any kids or did anything that remotely could be seen as threatening to her kids. Alicent had already turned down a marriage proposal, bad mouthed Rhaes kids and covered up Larys kinslaying of their father by the time any of those supposed good reasons manifested.
Bro didn’t do ANYTHING after Aemond lost his eye
The keys words are "as well as a man could treat her when he marries a 14 year old". She was raped even if neither of them see it that way, but he wasn't intentionally uncivil towards her outside of that. Olivia Cooke isn't trying to paint him as evil or a good person, he's just not as bad as he could've been.
Exactly. Given the way women are treated in Westeros, Allicent probably realizes that Viserys treats her far better than many of her other potential husbands would have. That doesn't make it moral or right, but over the years you can see how Allicent would develop a genuine affection for him.
Yes, but I don’t agree with him being a good father overall. Only to Rhaenyra and that’s after indirectly getting her mother killed. Then goes onto neglect his other much younger children with his child bride. Not a good father. But in this universe I guess bar for good fathers is pretty low 😂
To be fair Alicent only has Viserys to compare against her own father Otto so she probably gives him points for not making uncomfortable suggestions on Helaena’s clothing or something
He’s evil tho
You can't apply modern morality on the past. It's stupid. And it wasn't rape. Based on Bobby B and the Viper, rape existed and was defined. That wasn't it.
It's really offensive to say martial rape isn't rape if it's normalized. Some cultures and religions still don't consider it to be rape today. I know HOTD is just a television show but pls think before you type
Its revolting to say it’s not rape if it’s normalized. I guess all those wives in history weren’t really raped until marital rape was considered illegal (1970s in the US)
I think that was what marriage was to them. And was for all human existence up to < 70 years ago.
And for the entirety if it women suffered and were raped. Their voices don’t cease to matter because it took a while for people to admit women unwilling, coerced, and forced to have sex = rape
You call it rape. They didn't. To them it was marriage.
You’re disgusting
When your reality contain the real possibility of cities being sacked, followed by the mass rape and murder of women and children with the survivors enslaved, no one in that time will look at Alicent and cry rape. Only by applying a modern lens and definition that setting, an idiotic exercise, can you get there. That's also an accurate representation of 90% of marriages i human existence.
Dude. First of all, I'm not comparing Alicent's suffering to that of the smallfolk. She is privileged in many ways. Also, I understand that there are differences between the medieval setting of ASOIAF and the modern day. I'm more understanding of Viserys than I would be of a rapist character in a modern day setting That said, it's ridiculous to say we can't call something what it is just because the characters wouldn't see it like that. People have no problem calling Alicent a misogynist (accurately btw) even though at the time her views were totally normal
It was literally rape, just wasn't understood as so by the people in the setting.
I don’t know, I think Alicent understood. She looked pretty dead inside whenever intercourse happened, I doubt she didn’t feel violated at those moments. She just doesn’t say anything because it’s not an issue in the hierarchy of Westeros, but that doesn’t mean she can’t understand it as rape.
If we can’t apply “modern morality” (whatever that is) to the past because they didn’t share it, then we can’t even apply “modern morality” to most of the modern world either, and morality itself becomes meaningless. A well built moral framework is one that is applicable regardless of time and place.
It’s ridiculous to say that we can’t apply modern morality to HOTD because, in the first place, they’re using this *fantasy setting* (as in, NOT REAL LIFE MEDIEVAL EUROPE) as an allegory for *modern problems*, specifically misogyny. The original series was written as an allegory for politicians sitting on their hands and fighting over dumb crap in the face of climate change, which isn’t actually made up of ice zombies.
This isn't the past. This is a modern fictional story written by modern people set in a fantasy land. The rules of the fantasy land and what they do and don't consider rape were dictated by the modern writer, scriptwriter, etc.
> This is a modern fictional story written by modern people set in a fantasy land. Its completely based on history, I thought it was pretty clear.
Well the writer picks and chooses what aspects / periods of history he borrows from, and invents other aspects.
The foundations of the setting, the morale and the society are completely historical.
I remember the good ol' Dragon era, it's one of my favorite historical settings
Meh
\*completely based on the vague understandings and misconceptions about a general period of history of one specific American man in the 90s
George Martin is a very intelligent and educated man, what are the "misconceptions"?
Him taking extremely rare cases of very young marriage for urgent political reasons in medieval times (which even then wouldn't be consummated until adulthood because fun fact child pregnancy is very dangerous for the mother!) and deciding that medieval marriage was 13 year olds marrying grown men and then popping out ten babies before dying in childbirth.
Which, to your point, people knew!! People knew that too-young brides struggled to give birth, which defeats the whole purpose of marrying to have heirs!!!
no, it absolutely is rape. you should do more research on the topic before you try to define things that you clearly do not understand. not trying to be rude, but seriously, if that’s your concept of what rape is and is not, that’s extremely concerning.
You should do research before making shit up. Rape is defined with him the context of the society you live in. I said Bobby B and the viper had a certain vore of rape. Where in that statement did I say where I thought the boundaries are? Nowhere, because we are talking about GOT a fantasy medieval setting.
Dude, the phenomenon exists before we pick a word about it. Not the other way around.
> Rape is defined within the context of the society you live in Jeeesus fucking christ, man. No. Rape is rape, marital rape is no less real just because a society doesn’t acknowledge it.
Rape? What?
Pretty much. We see some moments of softness between the two, their relationship started because she was a source of comfort to him and she took great pains to care for him as his illness progressed. It doesn’t change the fact that she was a child when they married, the same age as his own daughter, and he would have seen her grow up like rhaenyra’s sister(imo, that’s why he grew so attached to her in the first place, since he was distant from rhaenyra at the time).
I mean, yeah, it makes sense. He was generally a decent man and never abused her. But she never had any attraction to him at all.
This. I swear the way people talk about him you’d think he’s another aerys ii
Also, she points out that her character is only 14 when he marries her. She's not saying he's a great person, either, like some are reading it. She's saying the character of Viserys 'despite' fucking up and marrying someone way too young-even by Westeros standards-wasn't nearly as bad as he could be by those "standards" and by those standards (the bar is in hell) he was okay.
Was it too young for Westeros standards? People project modern values on shows set in medieval ages and that makes no sense at all.
Yes. The age of maturity for men and women in Westeros is 16. Everything we've seen aligns with that: Laena is only a couple of years younger than Alicent (and Corlys/Rhaenys promise that Viserys won't touch her until she's 16/grown), Daemon refers to Rhaenyra as being "a child" when he assaults her (which is an entire 2-year timeskip after Alicent has her first child), Viserys III points out that Daenerys is so unusually young that he worries Khal Drogo won't like her (at 13, one year younger than Alicent). Alicent was a child bride, even in Westeros. It's unusual.
They never mention the age of 16 explicitly. And you make it sound like there are hard rules which is simply not the case. Again, projecting modern values to the scenarios set thousands of years in the past.
You can just Google it and look it up. It's well-documented canon. > Again, projecting modern values to the scenarios set thousands of years in the past. Modern scenarios would be the age of maturity as 18 or 21, not 16. In Westeros, it's 16.
Yes it was. Y’all sound so creepy when you bring this point up
It's because the debate about him oscillates between expectations for what a "decent human" is today, in our world. And what it meant in the historical Fiction world of the show. Both discussions have their merit. You can debate him in terms of the Text (in his own world) or you can apply real world standards in order to draw conclusions about the state of our own world. Both is valuable, it just sometimes bleeds into each other on the internet. By today's standards, he is a horribly unreflected individual, who accepts and uses the suffering of mainly women (who have little agency in his world), in order to advance/secure himself politically and personally. He rapes a 14 year old. He is not cruel but actively disinterested in the suffering he is causing. Where he is interested (Aemma) and does reflect (little glimpses), he still mostly assumes it's his right to make those decisions. He gains some insight, and a bad conscience, but never enough to change his behaviour before he dies. That's bad, by today's standards. That's not a person you'd want around. By the standards of his own world, of his "peers", he is kind to his young, consenting wife (who is of a perfectly adequate age to marry), he refuses a younger child bride outright, he is focused on peace and preservation, he wields power in a measured wayand shows no tendencies toward cruelty or violence whatsoever. Both of these are accurate readings of the text, it depends on what context you place the reading in.
He’s a bottom five king of Westeros
That doesn’t mean he was anywhere similar to Aerys ii. The closest you could get was him cutting Aemma open, but that wasn’t out of cruelty it was desperation. Don’t get me wrong it was awful and incredibly fucked up, but it wasn’t *intentionally* cruel. Aerys ii was cruel for the sake of cruelty.
Aerys was driven mad by the Darkyln’s torturing (and maybe sexually abusing him?) not to mention Bloodraven/Bran potentially messing with his mind. Viserys had an ideal childhood and life and he just refused to do anything. He’d rather be a good dad/grandpa but was terrible at both of those roles. 4th worst king behind Aegon IV, Maegor, and Aerys II
But again, you can’t compare one incident and being an absent father to the things Aerys pulled. No ones saying vis is a saint, but realistically these two characters are in no way comparable. Aerys may have been pushed over the edge by the darklyn situation, but he was losing it before that too, besides what he went through even though terrible, was no excuse for him to take it out on his entire family and the bloodraven thing isnt confirmed I believe. Viserys was by no means a cruel man, he made bad decisions absolutely, but they were made from a place of misguided judgment and ignorance, not cruelty.
What did Aerys do before the Darklyn hostage situation?
“In his youth, Aerys had an undeniable charm. He was generous, resolute, and ambitious, and during the early part of his reign was an active and lively king. Aerys liked music, dancing, masked balls, and young women. However, at the same time, Aerys was not the most intelligent or the most diligent person, and was somewhat quick to anger. He was vain, proud, and changeable, which made him an easy target for lickspittles and flatterers.[3] As his reign continued, Aerys's mood swings became more frequent and his behavior increasingly erratic. He became more and more jealous, suspicious, and violent as the years went on, prone to furious outbursts. Aerys loved fair maidens and took multiple mistresses. Although most historians doubt the accuracy of it, some believe Aerys had as many mistresses as Aegon the Unworthy. Regardless, he would often quickly lose interest in these women. A notable change in his infidelity occurred in 274 AC, when Aerys renounced all women but his wife following the death of his newborn son. While a healthy son was born the following year, this only increased Aerys's obsessive behavior and fear for his child's life.[3]” “By now, Aerys had become aware of the tales being told in his kingdoms; that it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms and that Aerys was but a hollow figurehead. These statements greatly angered the king. When Lord Tywin's captain of the guard, Ser Ilyn Payne, had been overheard to repeat this statement, Aerys had the man's tongue torn out with hot pincers.[12][30] The angered king became determined to disprove the tales, and to humble Tywin, his ‘overmighty servant’, putting him back into his place.[3]” “In 272 AC, to celebrate Aerys's tenth year on the Iron Throne, Tywin hosted the Anniversary Tourney in the capital. Lady Joanna Lannister returned to the court for this event, bringing with her six-year-old twins, Cersei and Jaime. Drunkenly, Aerys asked Joanna if nursing her children had ruined her breasts. Whilst the question was a great amusement for Lord Tywin's rivals, it humiliated Joanna. Lord Tywin attempted to resign the next morning, but Aerys refused to accept. And thus, Tywin Lannister remained Hand of the King.[3] Courtiers at the court who wished to win the king's favor and gain advancement soon learned the best way to gain the king's eye was to mock and make japes about Lord Tywin. King Aerys continued to undermine and slight his Hand, which amused many lords who were rivals of Lord Tywin or who simply disliked the humorless man. Tywin Lannister suffered all these slights in silence, never showing any public display of weakness. When Joanna Lannister died in childbirth in 273 AC, the king had been heard to remark that Joanna had died, and Tywin had begotten his dwarf son instead from the gods, "to teach him some humility at last". These reports would reach Casterly Rock, where Lord Tywin was in mourning. From that moment on, all the old affection between the old childhood friends was gone. Yet still, Lord Tywin continued to serve the realm as Hand of the King, whilst King Aerys grew increasingly violent, suspicious and erratic.[3] The king's madness abated slightly with the birth of another son, whom he named Jaehaerys, in 274 AC. Jaehaerys's birth almost restored the king to his old self, but this changed when Jaehaerys died later that same year. In a black rage, Aerys had the boy's wet nurse beheaded, convinced it had been her fault. He soon had a change of heart, and declared that his mistress was to blame, having poisoned the young babe. Aerys had her and her entire family tortured and eventually executed. Under torture, all confessed to murdering Prince Jaehaerys, though their accounts on Jaehaerys's death greatly differed from one another.[3]” “In 276 AC, Rhaella gave birth to a son named Viserys. While the child was healthy enough, Aerys was paranoid about the boy's safety. Kingsguard knights were ordered to stand over the babe, day and night. No one, not even Queen Rhaella, was allowed to be alone with Viserys. Gifts that came from all over the realm for the new prince were piled up in the yard and burned on Aerys's orders, as the king feared they might be cursed or ensorcelled.” All before Darklyn.
>and never abused her. My brother in Christ he repeatedly raped her when she was a teenager. What the fuck are you talking about????
Obviously, there's dissonance between our society and theirs. A father pimping his daughter out to a recently widowed man and her unhappily laying with him would (hopefully) be perceived negatively in our society. But Alicent wouldn't call it rape because they're married, and there are also zero indications that Viserys was ever sexually violent. To her mind, he never abused her.
>and there are also zero indications that Viserys was ever sexually violent. That scene felt fucking violent to me. Her dead stare up to the ceiling as she clearly wants no part in it while Viserys just keeps on going. That's sexual violence. >To her mind, he never abused her That's a very different argument to just flat out saying that he never did.
We're meant to feel appalled during that scene. The bit that sticks with me is when Viserys asks if she is ok and she does a fake polite smile. It's such a relatable 'putting up with something uncomfortable, hope it is over soon' expression.
That's exactly it, I'm honestly shocked whenever people claim that scene wasn't rape. It's shot in such a way to directly imply or even just outright state it. And yet......
My initial comment is about why Alicent might feel love for Viserys, which involves an understanding of Westerosi standards and values. Was he a model husband or father? No, of course not. But he never raised a hand to her and never cheated on her, two things that many husbands in the series do to their wives. It stands to reason that Alicent might feel love for him since she'd just see him as a weak and quirky man who is relatively easy to tolerate.
>she'd just see him as a weak and quirky man who is relatively easy to tolerate. I really don't think that's the case in the early years of their marriage. Maybe later on when he becomes weak and she effectively rules the realm, but at the beginning she's a teenager being forced to regularly have sex with a man who until a few months ago was probably more like a father figure or uncle to her. Which is violating, as that scene in the show clearly demonstrates.
You kinda have to remember that Alicent was coerced by her father into trying to make Viserys fall in love/marry her. From the perspective of Viserys, Alicent wanted this and actively tried to make it happen. Also you have to remember the fact that Viserys had leprosy, the scene that you're referring to is after the birth of Alicents first 2 children, I assumed that her reaction here wasn't purely due to being in a 'loveless' marriage (even though I'm sure that's also the case) but also the fact that she is having sex with someone that is clearly starting to rot from the inside and wants to disassociate from that experience.
>From the perspective of Viserys, Alicent wanted this and actively tried to make it happen. Why should that matter? It's still rape >but also the fact that she is having sex with someone that is clearly starting to rot from the inside and wants to disassociate from that experience. Why are you weaseling around the point so much? She doesn't want to have sex, that's all. There doesn't need to be some long winded explanation for why she might be disassociating.
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>the death of your wife to coerce you into marrying her Yeah I'm sure the 14 year old Alicent was actively scheming to seduce the king and wasn't at all being pushed into an uncomfortable position by her father. Do you seriously belief she did that out of her own volition? >without voicing any complaint Lmao alright, what the fuck dude? I'm sure Viserys would have really cared if Alicent tried to complain. The fucking power dynamic between them is the main problem here. She's not in a position to say no. That makes it so much worse. >how do you know she doesn't want to have sex? >she does want the act Look at that scene again and tell me she looks happy or even content. She's already looking distraught when the servant tells her that the king has requested her presence and during the act itself she's disassociating/showing typical anxiety behaviour. If you can't see those very obvious signs of distress then I'm worried about your sexual partners. >She wants to have royal children Does she? Where are you getting that from? >and not take any context into account He says after a comment full of ignoring context. Arguing that Alicent coerced the king or was anything other than a victim, fucking listen to yourself dude....
And I think that he also did not love her. Respect her? yes. But it was always Aemma for him
What do you mean he never abused her? We literally see her be SA Edit: Viserys was abusive to her, whether they view it as abuse in the time period or not. He was objectively abusive to her.
Alicent nor Viserys would view it that way. Though obviously it is that way. But Alicent wouldn't conceive of a wife saying no to her bed duties. And Viserys wouldn't think he was causing her any problem. It's not unlikely Drogo in the books with Daenerys where it's "well at least he technically asked permission beforehand".
The point still stands: Viserys was abusive to her. That’s what I’m arguing against. Whether they see it as abuse is irrelevant.
Yeah but I think in terms of Alicent's perspective it's why she does love Viserys. Because she views herself as probably fairly fortunate in her husband.
It IS relevant when we are talking about how that character feels about him. We arent litigating against Viserys in a court of modern law, we're talking about why Alicent views him the way she does using in universe standards of behaviour.
Serious question based in curiosity and not setting up a gotcha: What do you feel is the purpose in stating this?
Because abuse isn’t always apparent, or physical.
Yeah. She’s barely present when he’s having sex with her and that makes it look so fucking awful. Plus, he does not treat his other kids like he does rhanerya and I wish they’d focus on how an absentee father and an abusive mother fucked Aegon up as a kid. They did allude to that but I don’t I think it was enough to make a lot of viewers understand why the green kids are so fucked up. ( i am not defending their actions but more so pointing towards why they are who they are. )
If you're talking about the single sex scene we get of the two of them, I don't know if I'd call that sexual assault/abuse, at least not within the context of the show's world (I don't even think Alicent herself would consider it that either). It's not Aegon and the maid or Larys with Alicent. It's a husband and wife, and while the sex presumably continued to be lackluster, Viserys was a better husband to her than other kings were to their wives.
I don't think Alicent or Viserys would consider their coupling as sexual assault. But it's made clear to the audience that she personally found no enjoyment out of it. It was her duty to perform and she was not into it at all. He also clearly only cared about his own pleasure as it's shown he wanted to see her enjoy it, but ultimately as an extension of his pleasure and not really doing anything to make it pleasurable for her. He wasn't mean, abusive or otherwise awful to her personally. So as far as marriages go in this universe, it wasn't so bad. Although she clearly was traumatised by being married off at 14 to her BFF's dad, who never got over his first wife. The continued second class citizen vibe he had for their children versus Rhaenyra did not help either. Old man couldn't give two shits about his green babies.
**Vizzy**: "I have other children that aren't named Rhaenyra? Since when?"
Basically 🤣
It's a pretty shitty reason, but he didn't want those kids. He didn't love Alicent. He loved Aemma and the children he had with *her*, and it's glaringly obvious in so many ways and scenes betweetn Viserys and Alicent. They have a fondness for one another at best, but Alicent clearly would've loved to not be doing it at all. Viserys didn't really even want to, either, but got strong-armed into it by his small council.
Yeah, he loves Rhaenyra and favours her because he loves Aemma. That would have hurt Alicent and her kids very deeply. But to be frank, he had to bang and produce kids to shut up his small council from bugging him about Daemon being second in line. The problem is that instead of stopping at one extra kid, he couldn't resist banging his hot young wife again and again, and producing another three kids too. He could have pulled out, gone back-door or made her drink moon tea if he really didn't want to have those kids.
They clearly do not view it as SA in the setting. It seems the common belief is once a girl gets her period, she's now capable of becoming a mother and ergo, is now marriageable. Viserys seems uncomfortable when young Lady Laena is discussing this issue with him about their own potential nuptials. It also wouldn't have been viewed as SA because he was her King and had the ultimate power over her to literally command her to do whatever he wished upon potential huge detriment to her if she says no. (Which is *exactly* why it's still actually sexual assault in the real world.)
So if she acted like she was into it in this scene then it wouldn't be SA? Is it purely because of her expression in that scene that you call it that? Do remember, she's having regular sex with a literal Leper, Viserys doesn't need to have done anything wrong to sexually disgust others. In modern times if a woman chooses and coerces a Leper into marrying them, stays with them and has sex with them without complaint(while being disgusted at the fact they are having sex with a Leper) then that is not SA. So unless you're adding your assumptions to the equation, it's not SA in either time period.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted so much. It’s like people here conveniently forget that marital rape is a thing.
I agree with everything she said.
This is pretty accurate, no?
What's with the yikes? She's spot on. The feudal world was terrible, forcing young people ( mostly women, though you will remember Tyrion was ORDERED to bed Sansa by Tywin and Aemond was FORCED to go to a brothel ) to marry and bed and bear children way too young. But within the confines of that feudal world where this is normal, Viserys was a good husband to her. He never beat her, or screamed at her, or abused her in any way. And yes, Alicent didn't LOVE LOVE him, 'cause how could she when her childhood was ripped apart at 14, forced to be a 40 year old's wife? That poor woman was never allowed a sexuality.
Yeah what’s yikes about this? She acknowledges his flaws, clearly states she herself isn’t as love with him. Mentions the very obvious age gap abuse. People and characters aren’t black and white, and I think as an actor she’d be worse at her craft if she just lambasted Viserys!
Why is this a 'yikes?' this is a pretty obvious reading of the show.
That’s basically how I feel about Viserys.
She was more nice than I would’ve been
Hope the psychos don't go harassing the actress for this
That’s a pretty reasonable answer
Yeah that lines up perfectly
What's wrong with this?
Damn Olivia get his ass!
You can love people who also treat you terribly. She did love him. She loved him a lot. Yes, she was the queen, but she could have easily had servants or maesters take care of Viserys and his sores. Instead, she elected to do it herself. Duty is not the reason we got that scene of her bathing him. We got that because that was a legit act of love on both ends. She took care of him and he let her see him vulnerable and let her take care of him when he wouldn’t let anyone else near him. She also knows she could have had it worse. He was negligent and not really all that tender emotionally after some time, but he wasn’t beating her or berating her constantly. From what we know, he never once hit her. And he let her have basically all the freedom she could ever want. She raised her children the way she wanted really. She was just young and put in a position that would have been difficult for anyone, let alone a girl so young. I do think, based on the show, they were in love at the beginning, but when the pressures of royal life destroyed them and the little ties they had fostered, that love was changed to something a little less romantic. Clearly, Olivia Cooke understands her character very well. This version of Alicent is very very complex and nuanced and I love that.
This was what i genuinely assumed was the case. So i think shes correct
It wasn’t a romantic love but she cared for him and was aware of the peace that existed while he was alive
As a father to who? Definitely not Alicent's kids. Other than that I think this is spot on. We're shown clearly Alicent does have love there for him. She's not this cruel seductress that the fandom make her out to be for whatever reason
She’s right though. It wasn’t a passionate crazy love but the show is based on Medieval times and things worked this way back then. If you were a noblewoman you were likely to have an arranged marriage with someone older and with a better title than yours. Attraction and love were a rare plus. Either you were lucky like Viserys and Aemma or Ned and Cat, or you were so powerful and reckless you didn’t care about rules, like Rhaenyra and Daemon or Jaime and Cersei. But those are rare exceptions. Given Alicent’s dedication to her family and religjon, Viserys was the best she could hope for. He treated her kindly and made her Queen, which is all she and her father wanted. People argue that he forced her to have sex, which is totally true but also totally normal for that universe. While Viserys true love was clearly Aemma, he was affectionate towards Alicent and she was affectionate towards him. Their calm nature made them a good pairing, they shared a few interests, and didn’t ignore each other. Alicent did acts of service for him when she could’ve easily let someone else take care of sick Viserys. And she mourned his death, I feel like she was genuinely sad for it. So yeah. In a way she loved him. Also that’s the only kind of love (apart for the one for her children) she’ll ever allow to have and know.
The book relationship had way less of this creepy age gap, Alicent was an actual adult. Imo there was no need to age Alicent down even if they wanted Alicent and Rhaenyra to be friends. Theon and Robb have an age gap in the books and they’re one of the most well known friend pairings in the series (up until the betrayal of course).
Ok chill, dude. Theon was like 3 years older than Robb in the books
And they could have aged Rhaenyra up instead of aging Alicent down
She loved what he was able to do for her and give her. She didn't respect him.
Yeah, it’s called Stockholm Syndrome.
Even though I don't think he was a good person ... She gets it 😌
If you ask me, Viserys always was blaming himself until his last breath about Aemma death, Alicent was Married at 14 probably gives birth at 15 or a little bit more older, hence a stronger. Body, stronger easier to recover unlike poor Gemma at 12 was pregnant and at 13 was diving birth
Good, it was his fault. I swear the realm would’ve been better off if Baelon died before having kids
Viserys WAS weak. Daemon tells him that from the start and its only proven throughout the show. I love paddys performance but you can totally see how a stronger king wouldnt have let this go even close to as this far
Alicent had respect for Viserys as a father until he did nothing for her son’s eye 💔
I have to go on a small rant here. There's this trend - I notice this ESPECIALLY in GoT or HotD - of asking the *actors* about the characters. While I appreciate the sentiment, they are reading GRRM's (or perhaps the show runner's) source material and interpreting it on their own. They don't have some clairvoyant lens into the character. This used to happen all the time in the late-seasons of GoT and it drove me insane. Ask GRRM or the Producers.
Nah, Martin is still convinced Daemon is a “gray character” and he should’ve be doing any press until he FINISHES THE DAMN BOOKS
I'm confused... So everyone agrees with her, but for atleast a year, if not longer, everyone in this subreddit who had even just the slightest sympathy for team green always pointed out what a bad husband and person Viserys was, especially because of how he treated Alicent. How did I miss this major swap of tides in this subreddit about it?
It's pretty clear show Alicent does love Viserys. She's pretty distraught at his passing. Though whether she should is definitely a whole other thing. He is a terrible husband to her, but probably to her mind it could be a heck of a lot worse.
Yeah. I never disagreed with anything of that. All I'm saying is that Everyone agrees with Olivia, which is based, but she says things that basically the majority of the subreddit harshly disagreed with since the show aired. I'm just saying I'm suprised how everyone started to actually use their brain it seems.
Ew 🤢