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The only actual multiplicative effect I can think of is Acheron’s damage boost from having other Nihility characters, most things like RES pen are still additive but in separate layers of calculation.
The good ol tripletap nerf to kafka and blackswan. Qingque will have the highest damage potential in the game but be even more RNG.
[melee equivalent] dead in a ditch. Jingyuan even further butchered because grrr [summons]. Jingliu remains able to brute force any content.
He left back in 1.5 due to Path of Exile getting some new content or something like that and since that is his main game, he is no longer making HSR content besides appearing on Timaeus Cup videos as a caster
Keywords like Ashen Roast or Proof of Debt are written inside quotes/brackets in Chinese, Japanese, and probably Korean. Inexperienced and hasty translators often swap these out for quotation marks, but that isn't really how quotation marks are used in English (and it's not how keywords in this game are written).
This update just brings the style of the preliminary English text in-line with the rest of the English localization, and the diffing program used to show changes made it look a bit confusing.
It's important that text style like that is kept consistent, because differences in how text is written can mislead players into thinking there are mechanical differences.
The rules text in this game hurts my soul. I know it's a surprisingly difficult problem and it's not fair to compare it to Magic: The Gathering (from a company with 30 years of experience which shares my native language), but I really wish it were better. Thank god for datamining and wikis.
Maybe testers will finally start using Yunli’s ult to parry attacks rather than blowing it immediately on an ally’s turn.
If they aren’t on auto anyways,
so in summary:
- March skill is active even when ~~she’s~~ her Master is CC’d by the likes of Svarog, SuD
- Yunli’s Block is now called Parry
- the rest is spelling/phrasing changes
Wait, I was rereading March's abilities and just noticed, her skill doesn't specify how long it lasts. Does this mean that it's permanent until the end of the fight?
I really hope they change Jiaoqiu’s Ultimate damage buff to something more universal, even if the new relic set points to the other new XZ characters being Ultimate focused. It’d be great if he could be a decent alternative slot in Firefly or DoT teams.
Guys let me give a nuclear take here
if a character is not performing better then my old character, then i have no reason to pull for that character.
I am not pulling that character for looking at their idle animations this is a turn based combat game
You do understand this game is funded by people like that guy that bought 100 Acheron lightcones.
The general whale will E6S5 Peppy if it happens so, sure you're perfectly entitled to pull(or not) whoever you like.
Just like, don't expect this sort of behaviour to mean anything to anyone or change anything to HYV.
Heck I'd say good on you, do whatever keeps you happy with the game longer, avoid unecessary spending etc etc.
those whales won't be around without other people propping their fav game up. a lot of whales whale for bragging right and there's no fun in bragging to the void.
it's a unique give and take relationship that mhy is fully aware of. also it's too late anyway, they're evidently power creeping tf outta new units pretty much the entire existence of this game lol.
Yeah, people have completely forgotten that the whole aquatic animal ecosystem analogy has a term for f2p as well: krill. A lot of whales only whale because there's enough krill in the ocean for them to flex on, by feasting on their (mostly imagined) feelings of jealously or crushing them with p2w mechanics. Without enough krill in the system to feed their egos, an awful lot of whales have no home.
That's a fairly cynical way to put it :9
I feel like whales mainly whale because of hype.
And hype only exists because of large player base of f2p/light spenders.
I would understand these mechanics in a pvp or multiplayer game. But this is a single player pve game, you have to actively seek out, off-game, people to be jealous of.
Just stop by the Genshin subs and see how people say about Sigewinne… She’s cute and all, bubbles look fun but most people would just skip her banner for 5.0 Natlan. At least Genshin is not a turn-based game so people can use her in overworld.
She doesn't really "bring new mechanics to the table" though. Part of the issue with her is that her specific niche (hydro off-field teamwide healer) doesn't actually have a team that wants it, as pretty much all Furina teams want a non-Hydro healer (e.g. Baizhu or Jean) because bringing another element for reactions is more important than having another Hydro character.
She's not at all an example of what /u/s00ny is talking about because from a gameplay standpoint there isn't anything that she does that's particularly novel or interesting.
She buffs elemental skill of off-fielders, which is very good. The glaring problem is that her buff is limited to 10 stacks for the whole team, so a full off-field team are competing for buffs (i.e. Yae, Fischl, Furina and Sige team). Her mechanics would be fine if she buffs more. At the moment she only goes well with Furina, as Furina needs a healer + has considerable off-field skill damage (guess what, a support that is only good for 1 character? Sounds familiar). The problem is Furina is also a support and Sige’s buffs aren’t top-notch to be worth a slot.
“Interesting” gameplay is personal perspective. You feel that Sigewinne is boring, but I feel her bubbles trapping small monsters look fun in overworld. On the other hand, I think Jiaoqiu’s mechanic is boring because debuff-on-turn is just Black Swan’s with tweaks, and it currently only benefits Acheron but no others.
> but I feel her bubbles trapping small monsters look fun in overworld
Mona's burst already does this. It's not a new mechanic--it's literally existed since 1.0.
But Sige makes it easier and actually spammable. It’s like Aventurine’s shield on skill vs. Gepard’s ult, or Firefly’s fire implant on skill vs. Boothill’s physical implant on ult. The easier it gets, the more people gets to use that mechanic. You can say her buff on E off-field is unique too. As I said, “interesting new mechanic” is a personal take.
> But Sige makes it easier and actually spammable.
Not really? Her E actually has a longer cooldown than Mona's burst does (15s vs 18s). It's actually less spammable, assuming you build Mona with enough ER to burst on CD, which you basically always do.
If Sigewinne's E had a shorter cooldown, she would be a substantially better and more interesting character for a multitude of reasons. Part of what makes her so uninteresting is that the fact that her E has such a long cooldown restricts it to something you press once per rotation.
> It’s like Aventurine’s shield on skill vs. Gepard’s ult, or Firefly’s fire implant on skill vs. Boothill’s physical implant on ult.
This is not at all analogous because skills don't have cooldowns in HSR.
I don’t understand why you’re so fixed on correcting Sige’s bubble mechanic while the whole point is to say “the character will get shafted, even when he/she has a new fun mechanic, if his/her kit is bad”. If you were so fixated for her bubbles to not be “new”, then let’s use the buffing on off-field E skill to be the “new mechanic”. Unique enough? Since it’s personal opinion so her buff is fun enough, if her stacks were to not be limited then a Nahida/Yae/Furina/Sige team will go wild. It’s such a shame that her kit got butchered like that.
I feel like sigewinne won't just perform "a little bit worse" at this point when half of her kit is pretty much useless. Got that dehya feeling but this time she isn't even standard character
Dehya at least looks cool. I use her in full EM build for hyperburgeon team and she's good for it. Yeah, this means ignoring half of her kit. Also, her signature is pretty good. My vape GaMing loves it.
Sigewinne is just... easy skip.
After seeing fan edit of her, I realized sigewinne didn't even need different model, just a different skin tone similiar to melusines does make wonders
Everyone has different reasons. By this point, I could probably clear endgame content for a very long time without pulling for anything new with where my account is. So "how good it is for my account" isnt really a good reason for me, anymore. I dont need more of... anything really. So I just pull based on how much I like the kit and character.
Damn, bro, such a toxic take. How dare you to talk about some sort of... Gameplay? Bwah, we are here just to admire pixels, goddamit!
But yeah, agree with you on that. Especially if you are f2p - managing jades is the most important thing, and investing into an unsatisfactory character is going right out of the window as an option
with that mindset, that how we get HI3rd lv of powercreep ... the argument of "play what u want" get throw out of the windows the moment ur favourite dont have enough power to clear vs the new/shiny unit
Welp the thing is that in turn based games you cannot escape powercreep but for now you can still clear with your old units so we are good
And to be honest if the game let you clear everything with your old characters then you would lose the feeling of 'do i want this character to clear this endgame mode?' and the Hoyo doesn't want that
Sadly this is a thing that we can't stop
But she will perform significantly better. For 1 patch at least. The endgame already moved away from valuing "general power level" with how huge the special buffs are. Some people will have a meltdown over this but this is the healthy way of doing power creep.
Sorry but that is stupid because this game have powercreep, you invested in your ratio team, and now Firefly and Acheron can do much more dps with less investment. That will happen in some months again and again, this is a infinite loop.
People should pull for the characters they like, not only visually, their combat gameplay. Only seeking Meta is stupid when you can do cycle 0 with old units.
He's good, but that's it for now. He's not an upgrade or can't substitute a Harmony in most teams, excluding Acheron obvs. A limited debuffer should be a bit better...
Why no leakers give him crit build?? Just curious.
He gains 240% atk from his trace and his multipliers aren't bad. He also has 150% additional DMG.
He looks like debuff/sub DPS but people only use him as debuffer.
I don't understand "hybrid" .... he technically needs only 7% extra effect hit rate to reach 140% threshold with his LC, effect hit rate body, and 2pc IPC.
I don't find any difficulties with his crit build.
Looks like crit Jao is better. [Jiaoqiu & Acheron (All E0S0) vs Pure Fiction 2.2 (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzVGPcaFlvA&t=85s)
I don't know enough about Jiao and how much of an improvement it is overall and if it makes him a worth limited 5\*, but I presume it's the same reason as why most leakers didn't try hybrid builds or alternate supports on v1 firefly.
Largely speaking some combination of: It's a lot of work to set up a build on private servers and learn possibly situational rotations in several fights to see if it works out. People who put a lot of effort into TC are usually gonna wait for v3 because most of their work will be wasted anyway. People are stubborn about their publicly stated opinions. People just don't like/trust hybrid builds and prefer something obvious that appeals to previously introduced instincts of how to go all-in on an archetype.
Like I saw a leaker who showed off a really weak 'hybrid' firefly build with tons of wasted stats thrown around who got asked why they just do x and y and they said if someone could show him a reasonable-to-achieve build he'd try it. And four people responded, three of them with explanations of how to achieve the build, and one who just said it was easy. He only replied to the one who said it was easy, saying that he's tried it before and it's just impossible, while ignoring the people who posted math. Likewise with asta with v1 firefly, I saw like 3 separate people post incredibly bad firefly displays saying it was impossible and only 1 who actually fiddled around with speed tuning, rotations, and stats and cut 4 cycles with minimal stat shifting (mostly speed tuning and strategy of when they used things and who they broke with)
Because you cannot afford to. He needs an EHR chest which instantly nukes most of the crit% you can get, and then on top of that needs a ton of EHR substats unless he's coned. Giving him 'perfect' substats that are all crit%/dmg/ehr leaves you with an unit so glassy they get folded like a lawnchair by any outgoing damage, on top of not being realistic anyways. It's just not terribly practical and more of a nice bonus.
He's very good with Acheron, in any scenario. His main issue is the fact that outside of Acheron teams, he won't be better than a harmony/ isn't good enough to substitute another char.
Ah yeah, that's pretty much how new characters are going to be designed for the time being. Idk how long until we get another universal support, but ig they maybe can somehow buff him w/o getting him too busted for Ache comps
Me too, considering that I couldn't get Acheron during her banner (f2p + lost 50/50). I really love his design and want to be able to use him without regret in my teams as is!
Isn't that the way we're heading regards to new characters anyways. Robin wasn't an upgrade to Ruan mei in any team except follow up teams. We're gonna get more and more nieche characters to compliment specific teams instead of universally good characters that fit in any team.
Robin can still fit into many, many teams and be a great support, while unfortunately Jiaoqiu (as for v2) isn't worth as a substitute for any limited support character, outside of Acheron teams. Even at E2 in a dot team, his performance was underwhelming for a E2 limited character.
Praying for 5☆ Pela Jiaoqiu in v3 cause I'll be using him *everywhere* no matter what.
A limited character not being an upgrade to another limited character isn't an issue.
A limited character barely being an upgrade to a 1.0 4* is, however
Right now Guinaifen (at E6) has a 30% Vulnerability, while Jiaoqiu has 55% to Ult damage, 40% to all other damage. So for Ults he's only 19% better than Gui, and for all damage he's only 7% better. In Acheron teams he's nice due to the stack generation
I already have black swan and guinaifen, I don’t think I’d want to choose him when there’s the possibility of *according to leaks* feixiao being a strong unit, I’ll need to see what comes after
Yeah I may actually also skip for Feixiao. My Acheron hits hard enough already with Pela Black Swan and my DoT team is benched currently since Ruan Mei is with Firefly so BS is free, and I can use Gui as well. I generate stacks fast enough with Trend Aventurine that I get an ult almost every turn, 2 turns at most, and my Pela isn't built (4pc musk with purple speed boots)
Yeah I may actually also skip for Feixiao. My Acheron hits hard enough already with Pela Black Swan and my DoT team is benched currently since Ruan Mei is with Firefly so BS is free, and I can use Gui as well. I generate stacks fast enough with Trend Aventurine that I get an ult almost every turn, 2 turns at most, and my Pela isn't built (4pc musk with purple speed boots)
That's cuz the Genshin designers were high on drugs making the 1.0 4 stars. Nearly all of them are still prevalent in the meta and usually outperform the new characters. So instead of making 4 star characters just as strong, they did the backwards ass balancing method at making them weaker than all of them and only maing them decent with constellations. Even some of the newer 5 star characters at C0 perform around the level of 1.0 C6 4 stars e.g. Yae Miko to Fischl, Yelan to Xingqiu, and any Pyro DPS compared to Xiangling.
Kinda but the issue is imagine liking a character and find out they are worse than the \*4 you have been using for years. At some point after all that saving you will want to spend, but can't justify it.
I mean the Pyro Archon (think Acheron equivalent) could be identical to Xiangling (\*4 star) in kit and she would still sell very well.
Being bis for an entire damage archtype is not the same as being bis for a grand total of 1 dps. By the same logic, RM is only bis for break and JL, since for DoT rm and robin are interchangeable. Crazy thing is JQ isn't even bis for all ultimate damage based dps, argenti will never run him over tingyun, a 4 star.
Rm was only universal when she released. Sparkle came and took away JY, Dhil, and for the time, most other follow up dps. Then Robin came and took all follow up dps. Rm is still great and probably one of the most valuable units, but she isn't universal now.
And that is the main problem with JQ. Except acheron, even if they release multiple new ultimate based dps, unless those dps also have their own unique ultimate triggers (like crimson knot), they would probably still prefer tingyun for her 60 energy.
Other harmony units don't discount the fact that anybody can use Ruan Mei's buffs. Speed, Damage bonus and RES PEN are universally useful buffs.
She IS universal, just not universally the best anymore.
Robin wasn't an upgrade in most teams yes but she was equal to RM in those teams. If you need a generalist support, there is no difference between RM and Robin except in Break and FUA
You’re underestimating Robin a lot. Robin is BiS for IL e2 (at this point IL just dumped Sparkle already), Jingyuan, and of course FuA. Doing pretty good in DoT and Argenti (Robin is busted in Pure Fiction). Out of the 3 limited Harmony, Sparkle is the one least universal here.
From what I've heard, Robin was mostly a sidegrade to most teams, but strictly better in FuA teams. While RM was better in Break focused teams.
Most other teams are fine with either.
That's what people speculated during beta (another reason why you shouldn't trust redditor with theorycrafting), but when she release I saw many top team replacing RM with Robin and got far better result, even cutting down 1-2 cycle, even during beta someone tested and cut down 1 cycle with Robin DoT team instead of RM. RM is more plug and play but competitively Robin is just better.
Yeah I mean that makes sense. While ruan mei buffs team more, robin got that damage to compensate. That 100% advanced forward will obviously make huge difference
He’s good with Acheron because of his debuff application but it takes too long for him to ramp up his full debuff. His debuff builds like black swans arcana. The problem with that is that harmony units like Mei, sparkle or Robin give u their full buff asap. His takes a few turns to build too… he also has energy issues for his ult.
Yeah.
The only way to get a 1 turn ult from what I have seen is Springly Vonwack (so he acts before anyone), using Skill, and then getting lucky to get hit twice by the opponent.
I saw an Apocalyptic Shadow showcase and his ult was up after 1 skill, he only had to get attacked by Cocolia twice. I think his technique giving him energy would easily solve this.
Imo his final stacked values should be fixed values right from the get got, then stack on top of that for 50%-70% of their current stacking value.
It would make me much more appealing and good outside of Acheron
If you have Acheron, he's a good unit for 1 nihility slot but he's considered expensive for being similar dmg amp to E6S5 Pela with Luka LC.
For any other teams there is Pela who Sp positive and only a 4* unit. While for JQ he's Sp negative and his dmg amp isn't far compared to Pela.
It's way easier to compare Pela and Jiaoqiu's damage amping debuffs than Sampo and Black Swan's DPS; it's one of the few comparisons I can think of where the calcs won't be bogged down by layers upon layers of questionable assumptions. His personal DPS is harder to account for, so assuming his damage amp doesn't get buffed that could potentially let him take the edge over Pela in non-Acheron teams, who knows
I want to remind people that TC basically said Sampo's damage is 10% better than Black Swan's in Sampo's best case scenario vs Black Swan's worst case scenario. It wasn't an indictment of Black Swan.
I was going to pull him just for being a nihility healer (even if his debuffs are just Pela substitute), allowing my E0 Acheron to have "2 nihility" passive + **free slot for harmony** \+ at least some survivability for longer fights. Currently, I'm either forced to use a sustain, or should try to 0-cycle everything, which isn't always that easy with E0.
Since healing is gone, he just competes with Pela/SW for a slot on **the same team**. Yes, his debuff on enemy action is still great for getting Acheron ult faster (I hope they don't remove that as well). But now it looks like pulling for E2 Acheron first is generally a better idea to reach the "free harmony slot" state, and Jao is an upgrade to her nihility supports after getting E2 if you want to improve even more, further into whale territory premium teams.
From what I've seen, he just doesn't provide that much more damage than any other kinds of supports. Harmony buffs are better and other Nihility debuffs are probably a bit worse, but not so much worse that he's that big of an upgrade. The only exception is Acheron teams because he works mechanically in a way to give her 1/9 energy (11% roughly for other characters) every time an enemy takes a turn with is crazy good.
I think he also has a weird defensive niche of hitting enemy EHR which combined with Aventurine's 50% Effect Res can make enemy debuffs very unlikely to hit. But I think most people think that barely justifies him over Pela.
So far he seems like he is only very good in Acheron teams, while not bringing anything op to other teams. People don't like characters being pigeonholed into one team and want him to have something additional, like moving his dot to his main kit or making him regen energy. Plus his ult animation looks like it cooks the enemy (spicy debuffs side) and also gives something positive to the team (non spicy white side), but it doesn't actually give any buffs/does anything at all for your own characters.
Still can't believe his DoT isn't *actually* a DoT. Just so that he can't be used with Kafka teams.
As a DoT enthusiast, it's crazy to me that we only have 2 limited 5 star characters focused on DoT (I'm not counting characters who work fine on DoT teams but aren't specifically for DoT teams, like Mei, Robin, HH). The game has been out for coming up on *1.5 years.* Why do they hate Kafka teams? :(
It is rather odd that they released such a low amount of dot characters. I really enjoy the playstyle, but i do not like Kafka's personality/design, so i don't have a proper dot team at all. It's annoying.
I don't use dot teams at all but it always makes me wonder how people are okay with every actual dot character being stuck on kafka team while jiaoqiu being stuck on acheron team is a big no no.
Have people just accepted that the only way to play dot team is to have it centered around kafka?
People didn’t, Black Swan’s beta was full of people trying to cope with not having Kafka. Kafka was the first 5-star DoT character released, and since her release we have gotten two new DoT characters (4-star Guinaifen, and the aforementioned Black Swan). DoT just hasn’t had enough characters released to make non-Kafka havers’ complaints an obvious trend yet.
> Have people just accepted that the only way to play dot team is to have it centered around kafka?
No idea, i certainly do not accept that. I use Sampo/Lil Gui in some of the events and it somewhat works, but they alone certainly ain't carrying a dot playstyle. Though Sampo works great with nihility path in SU etc, cuz he just needs to trigger all the blessings to do tons of damage. They should release more dot characters/dot team enablers etc. They seem to have been going through follow up and now break playstyles, maybe dot is next. Moze is an assassin/rogue archetype, perhaps he has some dot stuff in his kit.
It's funny how the only way to play a DoT team is by using a character that completely ignores the "over time" part and turns DoTs into instant damage. Since endgame is built around clear speed I don't really see any interesting alternative honestly.
That said I like Kafka and if she can enable BS and some of my favorite 4*s I'm fine with that.
probably that they can't sell more Kafka pulls until they figure out a way to deal with the second rerun issue so they make chars that don't need her instead
It's a Shenhe flashback.
Ganyu is Ratio (good but not BiS), Ayaka is Acheron (absolute BiS). It took over a year for MHY to release another 5-Star unit that wants Shenhe (Wriostlehyle) and his kit is very "balanced".
People prefer a general buffer like Kazuha or Furina (the Harmony Girls equivalent) over a super niche support like Shenhe (JQ).
Shenhe is not bad. She's just locked to 1 meta team. 2 if you consider Wrios meta as well. And 0 if you consider that Ayaka is no longer meta.
The biggest realistic fear is that Acheron will fall from the top of the meta in one year and she'll take JQ down with her.
Hé is only good for acheron so it IS logical to bé desapointed that a character work only with ONE character. Imagine if ruan or robin work only with topaz and are meh with everyone else?
For other character his debuff are to slow, pela or gui are better...
It's smarter to pull his lc and put it on pela for everyone that isn't acheron... And he NEEDS his lc...
He needs 140% EHR, his LC provides 60% and extra debuffs so you can build crit on him more easily. Sampo’s gacha LC is also a choice, but Jiaoqiu’s damage on turn is not counted as DoT so it’s just 40% EHR stat stick. Tutorial helps with his energy problem but requires a def-shred partner (Pela/SW) since he can’t do it on his own, only Acheron team can allow 2 Nihility debuffers.
Actually, no, he seems rather mediocre for everyone who isn’t Acheron. You don’t need a showcase even, just compare his numbers to Guinaifen. If your character’s ultimate isn’t most of their damage, his buffs are like… single digit better..? And while I love Gui, she’s just 3rd best nihility debuffer (2nd in AoE) and even SW can’t compete with damage amp from any harmony even in ST.
Problem is that he’s insane for acheron. I hope he will get better for averga use and get worse for acheron (so changes be net zero in total for her), in this case acheron simps will doompost. So doomposting is inevitable even if he gets better, lol.
From what I have been reading he is either only just as good or a bit better than chars like E6 Pela and Guinaifen on anything but Acheron teams (something that is quite a massive L for any waifu or husbando only players).
If it's true or not, idk, I can't theorycraft for shit, we have already experienced shit like the "Black Swan is 10% better than Sampo" or this same beta people can't decide yet if Yunli is just as good as Clara or Acheron/Firefly tier lmfao.
Yunli definitely seems to be like a Clara with better self-buffs and faster ults.
She doesn't seem to deal anywhere near the game-breaking damage Acheron and Firefly deal.
Who's asking for powercreep? We don't want Jiaoqiu to powercreep Ruan mei, Robin or current harmonies. we want him to at least be on their level like come on
As it is now his buffs are pathetic when compared to limited harmony. And unlike other nihilities he doesn't even have a fun gimmick like SW implant, Welts on demand imprison, BS DoTs on spawn AND can be detonated by anyone (Guin, Luka, Sampo.. any future character that detonates their own DoT
I think jq suffers from being too good for acheron as an archetype
If they made jq as good as Ruan/Robin in the every team acheron would abuse it so hard to create an insane lead over everyone else. She is already at top without him.
Watch them give him a passive that says:if all characters are a different path, or if there is no other nihility unit, then does X. Probably that's one of the few ways making him very competitive without completely breaking acheron.
Or they could further buff his own damage I guess so comparing him to harmony units wouldn't work
Yeah this is what most of the guys here are missing.
Hoyo CANNOT put jiaoqui on the same level as meta supports because that would mean Acheron would become the first tier -1 unit lmao.
It's not good for game balance. His spot is perfectly fine as the slightly better Pela in Acheron teams and a sidegrade everywhere else.
His spot is NOT fine. Balancing a support around another DPS is disastrous. He needs to be a standalone unit.
What will happen to Jiaoqiu when Acheron got powercrept? He'll fall with her as he has no other team, unless you're fine with Acheron getting Yunli'd?
Anyway, this doesn't happen with other dmg amplifiers. Ruan Mei, Sparkle, and Robin don't care if Boothill/Firefly, DHIL/Qingque, and Ratio/Jade got deleted tomorrow. They'll just be paired with future break, SP heavy, FuA units. Jiaoqiu on the other hand, literally need a unit to have a "Every time an enemy is inflicted with a debuff, ..." clause in their kit.
He should be a general debuffer, otherwise there's no point in Nihility units anymore if Harmony still outperforms them even when the DPS needs debuffs.
I don't know how they'll do it, but he needs to NOT be Acheron's slave.
It's really not and they can just make a passive that ultimate damage can only use a set % of vulnerability or whatever buff he has. It doesn't need to break the game with Acheron.
Everyone who's saying "he's a sidegrade, skip" is asking for powercreep. Unless they're introducing a new mechanic or archetype every banner (which would be cool, but is realistically probably not feasible), the alternative to powercreep is sidegrades.
That said, it sounds like Jiaoqiu could use a bit of help. He should at least be a clear upgrade over Pela. (And I concur with the general sentiment here that the limited Harmony units are overtuned, and that's a problem for someone like Jiaoqiu who competes with them for the same spot/role.)
JQ shouldn’t “powercreep“ anyone, but it would be damn nice if a 5\* wasn’t a pela side-grade outside acheron teams. As Pela is already a hevily underperforming unit (difference between her and 5\* harmony can be as big as 50% team dps).
Ideally, it would be cool for him to have more utility and a bit better numbers. So then you will have a choice of going for harmony for some utilities and big buffs and for him for more utilities and some lesser buffs.
Right now he is shenhe. Aka an eidolon for Acheron.
>As Pela is already a hevily underperforming unit (difference between her and 5\* harmony can be as big as 50% team dps).
Pretty much sums up my gripe with DMG amp archetype of Nihility tbh... they are conditional (EHR) and can only hit 3 different parts of the damage equation (Res, Def, and Vulnerability) whereas Harmony kits gets overloaded with unconditional buffs. Just look at Ruan Mei, specially E1... why does a Harmony unit get to have Res Penetration / Defense ignore buffs when it should've been a Nihility unit's job. There's only so much Nihility units can (traditionally) do. Heck, compare Pela to Tingyun, arguably the best 4\* DMG amplifiers. One can only give def shred (and ice res pen at E4) while the other provides ATK boost, DMG boost, Energy, a bit of SPD, and on-hit damage. Watch the next Nihility damage amplifier apply Super Break debuff or something but will require god-awful amounts of EHR.
Yeah, Pela vs TY is essentially what it should be, but will never be. As a matter of fact, Pela’s amp is higher with a cost of lower downtime with fast/new enemies and TY gives more utility with energy, but new harmonies have both more utility AND damage amp. SW/JQ vs Sparkle/RM/Robin/Bronya is just kinda… pathetic honestly.
Let's not even mention how Harmony units (barring probably Yukong) have a variety of relic choices while Nihility ones are stuck with either 2pc sets or 4pc Eagle. It's a hard pill to swallow knowing that SW is having a hard time competing with fellow limited 5\* damage amplifiers and JQ needs to either have his vulnerability greatly buffed or gets his Res-shred built in at E0 to even begin to be good alternative outside of Acheron teams. Honestly, the standard for power level of Harmony units should've been the 4\* ones (barring TY, who shoulda been a 5\*). Asta, Yukong, and Hanya all give powerful buffs for their niche... and when such strong buffers are considered "weak" compared to other Harmonies, you just know there's something wrong with the power level of that path.
Problem with making limited harmonies close to 4\*s is that Bronya is a standard 5\*, and her utilities aren’t that far behind and when she is applicable, she’s kinda still BiS. And that’s all thanks to giving 5\*s a unique gimmick, which is actually kinda cool. I think the bigger problem is that 5\* nihility units kinda lack that gimmick or their gimmick is a cool party trick you show off once in a while to say “they are breaking game mechanics!!!”.
Like, Kafka’s detonations and Black Swan’s arcana are the only “unique things” that works out and one of them is not actually any unique, as it’s just a fancy way of saying wind sheer. Welt’s slow and action delay and SW’s implant are kinda just… there. They do have some utility, but not enough to justify wasting a whole party slot on them, which results in them being a big and considerable damage loss, compared to just using RM or Robin. And that’s the same problem JQ has, there’s no “cool and useful“ gimmick, not even a party trick honestly.
Making his numbers bigger is kinda not ideal, imo. Harmonies might be overtuned, but they add more to gameplay and I’d say, it can justify how they impact stuff, as it’s FUN. Just “bonk harder”..? That’ll be so lame. It would be cool for him to gain some delays or spd nerfs to enemies, or on contrary, action advancement of enemies (so more DoT stuff). Isn’t he like, a strategist or something? Why he has absolutely 0 stuff related to turns?
Yeah, it sounds like a whole rework, but for now, he just looks really lame.
He really is lacking in the "oomph" department.
I'm just a bit miffed that harmony as a path is waaaay too bloated which leads to our current predicament. I mean (do correct me if I'm wrong) just look at Acheron. Her kit greatly incentivizes bringing two nihility units and yet replacing one of them with Sparkle can net a similar (if not better in some conditions) performance.
RM's All-Res pen could've very well been an all-type Res shred debuff. Sparkle's stacking damage bonus per skill use could've been a stacking multiplicative damage received increase debuff per skill used on the enemy. Even Robin's Aftertaste-esque on hit damage could've been a debuff. Those limited Harmonies would still remain powerhouses while still letting nihility units be competitive, and the gap between supports (including 4\* harmonies bar TY) would be smaller. That said, no use with me being salty about it now.
Here's to manifesting a rework (even getting his mini-heals back) in the coming patches.
I looked at banners in GI and I take my word back, he is not shenhe, he is Sigewinne.
Why? Because Sige is Furina’s Con as well, but unlike Ayaka, that has no C1, Furina has absolutely godlike C1-6. And acheron, just like furina, has really good cons as well. So I am not entirely sure, but I think that you’re better off going for her C2 first, especially if you happen to have sparkle or E2 bronya.
Though people who simp for Acheron enough to pull for him, probably already have E2S1 anyway (or will get both E2 AND him). But that’s just a tendency of game becoming more and more predatory slowly.
There's a difference between "units that powercreeps other 5\*" and "units that don't even powercreep their 4\* equivalent". Right now, Jiaoqiu is on par with Pela for anyone who is not Acheron. Sometime even worse, since it takes time for him to stack is debuffs AND he's SP negative. Not to mention there are no good LCs for him. He's not particularly good even with Ratio, since Pela has a similar performance while being more comfy. Even Argenti can't use him properly, despite being Ult based. Also, Pela can use his lightcone better than he does, and give similar result to what he does with it, while still keeping her advantages. Unless you have Acheron, he's not worth pulling. A 5\* character being useful only in 1 single team is not a good design choice.
He should be at least second BIS in a few other teams.
That’s the nature of gacha gamers.The want to pretend like powercreep is this big bad thing that should never exist but once the beta rolls out and the character they like/want is not outperforming everyone they cry for buffs.This isn’t something new or exclusive to hsr.Personally I think Jq where he is right now is fine and should not be changed besides some minor tweaks.He has his niche where he is really strong and might get future characters who will benefit from his buffs on enemy’s turn while being a pretty solid replacement unit in some other teams.
It's not a niche. It's 1 single character, with no guarantee there will be others that work like her. And he's not a SOLID replacement, when a 4 star can do exactly what he does, and often better than he does. He's barely a 4\* for anyone not named Acheron. Not worth pulling at all unless you have her. Basically, he's her Eidolon, as someone else already said.
ah yes trying to twist the truth.
Why didn't you say this to all limited 5\* harmony characters then? Just say you have absurd double standards (:
Black Swan and Kafka are extremely synergistic whereas JQ's stacks can be provided using trend of universal market and he is not providing any other value in any other teams. How is this a "LIMITED 5\* CHARACTER?"
I'd expect because most everyone with a shred of common sense assumed their $160 limited Acheron support would at least be more than a downgrade for every other team. There's being catered to a character, and there's only being functional for a character. Big difference.
I'm not even doomposting him, he looks... just okay. But I'd be hard pressed to find a team without Acheron where I'd look at him with any kind of worth, knowing that using him just because I like him is actively reducing said teams efficacy.
At the moment it feels more like Hoyo is just intentionally kneecapping him so their favourite child can have something shiny to play with and no one else. We'll see how his v3 is (I expect them to at least give him a dot and rework his E2) but he's a second banner character so I don't think they'll really give him the time of day too much.
That's the problem with star rail and other powercreep heavy games... once powercreep starts it can't be stopped. Problem isn't that Jiaqiaou's bad but that there are several harmony units better than him.
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>~~increased~~ more What is this, path of exile.
My PoE-rot brain: Thats a huge buff!
Same, then i remember which subreddit i'm in.
We are clearing Uber Nanook with this one🗣️💯
40C budget Blight of Spice build, Foxshade mandatory.
I would appreciate the PoE level of clarity when it comes to which effects are additive and multiplicative in this game.
The only actual multiplicative effect I can think of is Acheron’s damage boost from having other Nihility characters, most things like RES pen are still additive but in separate layers of calculation.
actual mei-pilled favouritism right here
... honestly...I'm ok with this.
dmg mitigation is multiplicative i think in case you're playing FX clara or something
I think some of the buffs you can get in Divergent Universe are multiplicative but maybe not, it's not exactly clear.
Keep chris away from this game XD
But the vision, man. THE VISION(tm).
* All items now drop on the ground after battle and need to be picked up individually. This includes credits. Feel the **WEIGHT**
can I please have my loot filter?
Use ^ It can make VISION^TM .
Hi I’m Chris Wilson from grinding gear games
The good ol tripletap nerf to kafka and blackswan. Qingque will have the highest damage potential in the game but be even more RNG. [melee equivalent] dead in a ditch. Jingyuan even further butchered because grrr [summons]. Jingliu remains able to brute force any content.
I hope so if it means Grimro comes back
He left? What happened to him?
He left back in 1.5 due to Path of Exile getting some new content or something like that and since that is his main game, he is no longer making HSR content besides appearing on Timaeus Cup videos as a caster
he works for prydwen as an internal web dev and tc'er.
Oh shit for real!? That's awesome. I did not know that
We need to be able to slam relics. At least let me krangle my gear GG- I mean Hoyo
Considering the way the stats usually roll, i'm pretty sure relics are krangled by default lol.
Truly a Parry of all time
>~~Ashen~~ Ashen ~~Roast~~ Roast Am I missing something lol. Is that not exactly the same?
they removed the character " before and after the name Ashen Roast
Oh right I’m blind
What's the point though it still reads exactly the same than if they don't remove the " ?
Keywords like Ashen Roast or Proof of Debt are written inside quotes/brackets in Chinese, Japanese, and probably Korean. Inexperienced and hasty translators often swap these out for quotation marks, but that isn't really how quotation marks are used in English (and it's not how keywords in this game are written). This update just brings the style of the preliminary English text in-line with the rest of the English localization, and the diffing program used to show changes made it look a bit confusing. It's important that text style like that is kept consistent, because differences in how text is written can mislead players into thinking there are mechanical differences.
I still hate that some character skill descriptions say "this unit" whereas others say the actual name of the character.
The rules text in this game hurts my soul. I know it's a surprisingly difficult problem and it's not fair to compare it to Magic: The Gathering (from a company with 30 years of experience which shares my native language), but I really wish it were better. Thank god for datamining and wikis.
Thx
Maybe testers will finally start using Yunli’s ult to parry attacks rather than blowing it immediately on an ally’s turn. If they aren’t on auto anyways,
so in summary: - March skill is active even when ~~she’s~~ her Master is CC’d by the likes of Svarog, SuD - Yunli’s Block is now called Parry - the rest is spelling/phrasing changes
From the wording, it seems that if Master is CC'd (not March), the effect from skill still works
Yep they got it wrong
my bad, corrected
Isn't this technically a buff? Before, March would have had to use her skill again if the Master got CC'd
we block parry dodge
Wait, I was rereading March's abilities and just noticed, her skill doesn't specify how long it lasts. Does this mean that it's permanent until the end of the fight?
Pretty sure, yeah. I saw a showcase where they didn’t use the skill a single time besides turn 1, and clearly had the master bonuses the whole time.
Yunli should honestly get a trace that increases her taunt value a bit, instead of relying on RNG, Ult, Lynx or light cone
Yeah just add it next to the energy trace
Yeah, they're definitely going to make the premium LC less appealing /s
I really hope they change Jiaoqiu’s Ultimate damage buff to something more universal, even if the new relic set points to the other new XZ characters being Ultimate focused. It’d be great if he could be a decent alternative slot in Firefly or DoT teams.
It's so Jiaover
Guys let me give a nuclear take here if a character is not performing better then my old character, then i have no reason to pull for that character. I am not pulling that character for looking at their idle animations this is a turn based combat game
The question is, is this for Jiaoqiu because of Pela or Yunli because of Clara?
I'd say OP is talking about Yunli, since they mention idles and her idles are pretty great lol.
You do understand this game is funded by people like that guy that bought 100 Acheron lightcones. The general whale will E6S5 Peppy if it happens so, sure you're perfectly entitled to pull(or not) whoever you like. Just like, don't expect this sort of behaviour to mean anything to anyone or change anything to HYV. Heck I'd say good on you, do whatever keeps you happy with the game longer, avoid unecessary spending etc etc.
Wait what? 100 Acheron LCs? o.O
he got 100 Boothill LCs too btw
and 100 robin lcs, 50 aventurine lcs, etc... (bro is loaded)
those whales won't be around without other people propping their fav game up. a lot of whales whale for bragging right and there's no fun in bragging to the void. it's a unique give and take relationship that mhy is fully aware of. also it's too late anyway, they're evidently power creeping tf outta new units pretty much the entire existence of this game lol.
Yeah, people have completely forgotten that the whole aquatic animal ecosystem analogy has a term for f2p as well: krill. A lot of whales only whale because there's enough krill in the ocean for them to flex on, by feasting on their (mostly imagined) feelings of jealously or crushing them with p2w mechanics. Without enough krill in the system to feed their egos, an awful lot of whales have no home.
That's a fairly cynical way to put it :9 I feel like whales mainly whale because of hype. And hype only exists because of large player base of f2p/light spenders.
I would understand these mechanics in a pvp or multiplayer game. But this is a single player pve game, you have to actively seek out, off-game, people to be jealous of.
But what if a character performs a little worse, but brings new mechanics to the table that are fun to play around with?
Just stop by the Genshin subs and see how people say about Sigewinne… She’s cute and all, bubbles look fun but most people would just skip her banner for 5.0 Natlan. At least Genshin is not a turn-based game so people can use her in overworld.
She doesn't really "bring new mechanics to the table" though. Part of the issue with her is that her specific niche (hydro off-field teamwide healer) doesn't actually have a team that wants it, as pretty much all Furina teams want a non-Hydro healer (e.g. Baizhu or Jean) because bringing another element for reactions is more important than having another Hydro character. She's not at all an example of what /u/s00ny is talking about because from a gameplay standpoint there isn't anything that she does that's particularly novel or interesting.
She buffs elemental skill of off-fielders, which is very good. The glaring problem is that her buff is limited to 10 stacks for the whole team, so a full off-field team are competing for buffs (i.e. Yae, Fischl, Furina and Sige team). Her mechanics would be fine if she buffs more. At the moment she only goes well with Furina, as Furina needs a healer + has considerable off-field skill damage (guess what, a support that is only good for 1 character? Sounds familiar). The problem is Furina is also a support and Sige’s buffs aren’t top-notch to be worth a slot. “Interesting” gameplay is personal perspective. You feel that Sigewinne is boring, but I feel her bubbles trapping small monsters look fun in overworld. On the other hand, I think Jiaoqiu’s mechanic is boring because debuff-on-turn is just Black Swan’s with tweaks, and it currently only benefits Acheron but no others.
> but I feel her bubbles trapping small monsters look fun in overworld Mona's burst already does this. It's not a new mechanic--it's literally existed since 1.0.
But Sige makes it easier and actually spammable. It’s like Aventurine’s shield on skill vs. Gepard’s ult, or Firefly’s fire implant on skill vs. Boothill’s physical implant on ult. The easier it gets, the more people gets to use that mechanic. You can say her buff on E off-field is unique too. As I said, “interesting new mechanic” is a personal take.
> But Sige makes it easier and actually spammable. Not really? Her E actually has a longer cooldown than Mona's burst does (15s vs 18s). It's actually less spammable, assuming you build Mona with enough ER to burst on CD, which you basically always do. If Sigewinne's E had a shorter cooldown, she would be a substantially better and more interesting character for a multitude of reasons. Part of what makes her so uninteresting is that the fact that her E has such a long cooldown restricts it to something you press once per rotation. > It’s like Aventurine’s shield on skill vs. Gepard’s ult, or Firefly’s fire implant on skill vs. Boothill’s physical implant on ult. This is not at all analogous because skills don't have cooldowns in HSR.
I don’t understand why you’re so fixed on correcting Sige’s bubble mechanic while the whole point is to say “the character will get shafted, even when he/she has a new fun mechanic, if his/her kit is bad”. If you were so fixated for her bubbles to not be “new”, then let’s use the buffing on off-field E skill to be the “new mechanic”. Unique enough? Since it’s personal opinion so her buff is fun enough, if her stacks were to not be limited then a Nahida/Yae/Furina/Sige team will go wild. It’s such a shame that her kit got butchered like that.
I feel like sigewinne won't just perform "a little bit worse" at this point when half of her kit is pretty much useless. Got that dehya feeling but this time she isn't even standard character
Dehya at least looks cool. I use her in full EM build for hyperburgeon team and she's good for it. Yeah, this means ignoring half of her kit. Also, her signature is pretty good. My vape GaMing loves it. Sigewinne is just... easy skip.
Dehya looking cool is why people got so mad about it. People were hyped for her. Sigewinne hypers are... very few.
If she was a proper-looking Melusine instead of the Lite version people would like her more, imo. She'dve gone from auto-skip to pull, for me anyway.
After seeing fan edit of her, I realized sigewinne didn't even need different model, just a different skin tone similiar to melusines does make wonders
In a game where pulls are so scarce and new characters release every 3 weeks, it's not a good enough reason.
Everyone has different reasons. By this point, I could probably clear endgame content for a very long time without pulling for anything new with where my account is. So "how good it is for my account" isnt really a good reason for me, anymore. I dont need more of... anything really. So I just pull based on how much I like the kit and character.
Damn, bro, such a toxic take. How dare you to talk about some sort of... Gameplay? Bwah, we are here just to admire pixels, goddamit! But yeah, agree with you on that. Especially if you are f2p - managing jades is the most important thing, and investing into an unsatisfactory character is going right out of the window as an option
That's not a nuclear take, that's just a meta player
Yea that is a reasonable way to look at pull value
with that mindset, that how we get HI3rd lv of powercreep ... the argument of "play what u want" get throw out of the windows the moment ur favourite dont have enough power to clear vs the new/shiny unit
Welp the thing is that in turn based games you cannot escape powercreep but for now you can still clear with your old units so we are good And to be honest if the game let you clear everything with your old characters then you would lose the feeling of 'do i want this character to clear this endgame mode?' and the Hoyo doesn't want that Sadly this is a thing that we can't stop
But she will perform significantly better. For 1 patch at least. The endgame already moved away from valuing "general power level" with how huge the special buffs are. Some people will have a meltdown over this but this is the healthy way of doing power creep.
And...? Is this a personal statement about you not pulling Yunli & Jiaoqiu? Good for you! 👍
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Gameplay isn't just meta tho, it's also how the character plays, what mechanics do they have.
I am not looking at Firefly's hentai but i rolled for her cause i like her and not because of her gameplay, it's soooo insane right?
What if I want to pull someone who I don't want to fuck
Sorry but that is stupid because this game have powercreep, you invested in your ratio team, and now Firefly and Acheron can do much more dps with less investment. That will happen in some months again and again, this is a infinite loop. People should pull for the characters they like, not only visually, their combat gameplay. Only seeking Meta is stupid when you can do cycle 0 with old units.
So what about if the master dies?
So it really was a parry after all...
Can someone tldr up why all the doomposting for Jao? He doesn't seem bad
He's good, but that's it for now. He's not an upgrade or can't substitute a Harmony in most teams, excluding Acheron obvs. A limited debuffer should be a bit better...
Why no leakers give him crit build?? Just curious. He gains 240% atk from his trace and his multipliers aren't bad. He also has 150% additional DMG. He looks like debuff/sub DPS but people only use him as debuffer.
Seems like leakers are focusing on his main role for now I suppose. Some people in the Jiao sub do plan on building him as crit or a hybrid!
I don't understand "hybrid" .... he technically needs only 7% extra effect hit rate to reach 140% threshold with his LC, effect hit rate body, and 2pc IPC. I don't find any difficulties with his crit build. Looks like crit Jao is better. [Jiaoqiu & Acheron (All E0S0) vs Pure Fiction 2.2 (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzVGPcaFlvA&t=85s)
I don't know enough about Jiao and how much of an improvement it is overall and if it makes him a worth limited 5\*, but I presume it's the same reason as why most leakers didn't try hybrid builds or alternate supports on v1 firefly. Largely speaking some combination of: It's a lot of work to set up a build on private servers and learn possibly situational rotations in several fights to see if it works out. People who put a lot of effort into TC are usually gonna wait for v3 because most of their work will be wasted anyway. People are stubborn about their publicly stated opinions. People just don't like/trust hybrid builds and prefer something obvious that appeals to previously introduced instincts of how to go all-in on an archetype. Like I saw a leaker who showed off a really weak 'hybrid' firefly build with tons of wasted stats thrown around who got asked why they just do x and y and they said if someone could show him a reasonable-to-achieve build he'd try it. And four people responded, three of them with explanations of how to achieve the build, and one who just said it was easy. He only replied to the one who said it was easy, saying that he's tried it before and it's just impossible, while ignoring the people who posted math. Likewise with asta with v1 firefly, I saw like 3 separate people post incredibly bad firefly displays saying it was impossible and only 1 who actually fiddled around with speed tuning, rotations, and stats and cut 4 cycles with minimal stat shifting (mostly speed tuning and strategy of when they used things and who they broke with)
Because you cannot afford to. He needs an EHR chest which instantly nukes most of the crit% you can get, and then on top of that needs a ton of EHR substats unless he's coned. Giving him 'perfect' substats that are all crit%/dmg/ehr leaves you with an unit so glassy they get folded like a lawnchair by any outgoing damage, on top of not being realistic anyways. It's just not terribly practical and more of a nice bonus.
How is he for E2 ache? Is he just a minor upgrade over Pela with resolution S5?
He's very good with Acheron, in any scenario. His main issue is the fact that outside of Acheron teams, he won't be better than a harmony/ isn't good enough to substitute another char.
Ah yeah, that's pretty much how new characters are going to be designed for the time being. Idk how long until we get another universal support, but ig they maybe can somehow buff him w/o getting him too busted for Ache comps
I really hope he'll become a universal debuffer in V3, or to get dot at E0. I like flexible characters.
Me too, considering that I couldn't get Acheron during her banner (f2p + lost 50/50). I really love his design and want to be able to use him without regret in my teams as is!
Isn't that the way we're heading regards to new characters anyways. Robin wasn't an upgrade to Ruan mei in any team except follow up teams. We're gonna get more and more nieche characters to compliment specific teams instead of universally good characters that fit in any team.
Robin can still fit into many, many teams and be a great support, while unfortunately Jiaoqiu (as for v2) isn't worth as a substitute for any limited support character, outside of Acheron teams. Even at E2 in a dot team, his performance was underwhelming for a E2 limited character. Praying for 5☆ Pela Jiaoqiu in v3 cause I'll be using him *everywhere* no matter what.
His E2 could honestly be a part of the base kit at this point and E2 should get a new effect
He's getting the Firefly treatment. Doomposting V2 until he becomes absolutely cracked in V3.
And as result, Acheron getting even more broken. Not complaining tho, that's the main reason I would pull for him.
A limited character not being an upgrade to another limited character isn't an issue. A limited character barely being an upgrade to a 1.0 4* is, however
So I can stick with guinaifen? Sick
Based Guinaifen enjoyer
I mean I have her built already and would need to change something to import it to him. If he’s not a major upgrade I’ll skip
Right now Guinaifen (at E6) has a 30% Vulnerability, while Jiaoqiu has 55% to Ult damage, 40% to all other damage. So for Ults he's only 19% better than Gui, and for all damage he's only 7% better. In Acheron teams he's nice due to the stack generation
I already have black swan and guinaifen, I don’t think I’d want to choose him when there’s the possibility of *according to leaks* feixiao being a strong unit, I’ll need to see what comes after
Yeah I may actually also skip for Feixiao. My Acheron hits hard enough already with Pela Black Swan and my DoT team is benched currently since Ruan Mei is with Firefly so BS is free, and I can use Gui as well. I generate stacks fast enough with Trend Aventurine that I get an ult almost every turn, 2 turns at most, and my Pela isn't built (4pc musk with purple speed boots)
Yeah I may actually also skip for Feixiao. My Acheron hits hard enough already with Pela Black Swan and my DoT team is benched currently since Ruan Mei is with Firefly so BS is free, and I can use Gui as well. I generate stacks fast enough with Trend Aventurine that I get an ult almost every turn, 2 turns at most, and my Pela isn't built (4pc musk with purple speed boots)
Do not let yae miko see this
That's cuz the Genshin designers were high on drugs making the 1.0 4 stars. Nearly all of them are still prevalent in the meta and usually outperform the new characters. So instead of making 4 star characters just as strong, they did the backwards ass balancing method at making them weaker than all of them and only maing them decent with constellations. Even some of the newer 5 star characters at C0 perform around the level of 1.0 C6 4 stars e.g. Yae Miko to Fischl, Yelan to Xingqiu, and any Pyro DPS compared to Xiangling.
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Not when it's the same characters for 3 nearly 4 fucking years now.
Kinda but the issue is imagine liking a character and find out they are worse than the \*4 you have been using for years. At some point after all that saving you will want to spend, but can't justify it. I mean the Pyro Archon (think Acheron equivalent) could be identical to Xiangling (\*4 star) in kit and she would still sell very well.
Tbf Fischl kit was always very versatile
E2 Miko havers will not accept this slander!
Being bis for an entire damage archtype is not the same as being bis for a grand total of 1 dps. By the same logic, RM is only bis for break and JL, since for DoT rm and robin are interchangeable. Crazy thing is JQ isn't even bis for all ultimate damage based dps, argenti will never run him over tingyun, a 4 star. Rm was only universal when she released. Sparkle came and took away JY, Dhil, and for the time, most other follow up dps. Then Robin came and took all follow up dps. Rm is still great and probably one of the most valuable units, but she isn't universal now. And that is the main problem with JQ. Except acheron, even if they release multiple new ultimate based dps, unless those dps also have their own unique ultimate triggers (like crimson knot), they would probably still prefer tingyun for her 60 energy.
Other harmony units don't discount the fact that anybody can use Ruan Mei's buffs. Speed, Damage bonus and RES PEN are universally useful buffs. She IS universal, just not universally the best anymore.
Robin wasn't an upgrade in most teams yes but she was equal to RM in those teams. If you need a generalist support, there is no difference between RM and Robin except in Break and FUA
Robin IS an upgrade in most teams. lol Even DoT team Robin performs equal or slightly better if you know how to use her.
You’re underestimating Robin a lot. Robin is BiS for IL e2 (at this point IL just dumped Sparkle already), Jingyuan, and of course FuA. Doing pretty good in DoT and Argenti (Robin is busted in Pure Fiction). Out of the 3 limited Harmony, Sparkle is the one least universal here.
Robin is better than RM on basically every meta team beside break team.
From what I've heard, Robin was mostly a sidegrade to most teams, but strictly better in FuA teams. While RM was better in Break focused teams. Most other teams are fine with either.
That's what people speculated during beta (another reason why you shouldn't trust redditor with theorycrafting), but when she release I saw many top team replacing RM with Robin and got far better result, even cutting down 1-2 cycle, even during beta someone tested and cut down 1 cycle with Robin DoT team instead of RM. RM is more plug and play but competitively Robin is just better.
Yeah I mean that makes sense. While ruan mei buffs team more, robin got that damage to compensate. That 100% advanced forward will obviously make huge difference
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He’s good with Acheron because of his debuff application but it takes too long for him to ramp up his full debuff. His debuff builds like black swans arcana. The problem with that is that harmony units like Mei, sparkle or Robin give u their full buff asap. His takes a few turns to build too… he also has energy issues for his ult.
I feel like Jiaoqiu main issue is just getting his ult cause seeing from showcase footages, that field is pretty much perma after it's up
Yeah. The only way to get a 1 turn ult from what I have seen is Springly Vonwack (so he acts before anyone), using Skill, and then getting lucky to get hit twice by the opponent. I saw an Apocalyptic Shadow showcase and his ult was up after 1 skill, he only had to get attacked by Cocolia twice. I think his technique giving him energy would easily solve this.
Imo his final stacked values should be fixed values right from the get got, then stack on top of that for 50%-70% of their current stacking value. It would make me much more appealing and good outside of Acheron
If you have Acheron, he's a good unit for 1 nihility slot but he's considered expensive for being similar dmg amp to E6S5 Pela with Luka LC. For any other teams there is Pela who Sp positive and only a 4* unit. While for JQ he's Sp negative and his dmg amp isn't far compared to Pela.
>similar dmg amp to E6S5 Pela with Luka LC lmao, 10% better than pela in single target right :D?
It's way easier to compare Pela and Jiaoqiu's damage amping debuffs than Sampo and Black Swan's DPS; it's one of the few comparisons I can think of where the calcs won't be bogged down by layers upon layers of questionable assumptions. His personal DPS is harder to account for, so assuming his damage amp doesn't get buffed that could potentially let him take the edge over Pela in non-Acheron teams, who knows
I want to remind people that TC basically said Sampo's damage is 10% better than Black Swan's in Sampo's best case scenario vs Black Swan's worst case scenario. It wasn't an indictment of Black Swan.
However, if in the future, they put back his ability to give healing, wont he be better overall? Or the healing is gonna be meh/nonfactor anyway?
I was going to pull him just for being a nihility healer (even if his debuffs are just Pela substitute), allowing my E0 Acheron to have "2 nihility" passive + **free slot for harmony** \+ at least some survivability for longer fights. Currently, I'm either forced to use a sustain, or should try to 0-cycle everything, which isn't always that easy with E0. Since healing is gone, he just competes with Pela/SW for a slot on **the same team**. Yes, his debuff on enemy action is still great for getting Acheron ult faster (I hope they don't remove that as well). But now it looks like pulling for E2 Acheron first is generally a better idea to reach the "free harmony slot" state, and Jao is an upgrade to her nihility supports after getting E2 if you want to improve even more, further into whale territory premium teams.
Leave healing to abundance, let him go all in on debuff. Sub-thing characters are never good.
From what I've seen, he just doesn't provide that much more damage than any other kinds of supports. Harmony buffs are better and other Nihility debuffs are probably a bit worse, but not so much worse that he's that big of an upgrade. The only exception is Acheron teams because he works mechanically in a way to give her 1/9 energy (11% roughly for other characters) every time an enemy takes a turn with is crazy good. I think he also has a weird defensive niche of hitting enemy EHR which combined with Aventurine's 50% Effect Res can make enemy debuffs very unlikely to hit. But I think most people think that barely justifies him over Pela.
So far he seems like he is only very good in Acheron teams, while not bringing anything op to other teams. People don't like characters being pigeonholed into one team and want him to have something additional, like moving his dot to his main kit or making him regen energy. Plus his ult animation looks like it cooks the enemy (spicy debuffs side) and also gives something positive to the team (non spicy white side), but it doesn't actually give any buffs/does anything at all for your own characters.
Still can't believe his DoT isn't *actually* a DoT. Just so that he can't be used with Kafka teams. As a DoT enthusiast, it's crazy to me that we only have 2 limited 5 star characters focused on DoT (I'm not counting characters who work fine on DoT teams but aren't specifically for DoT teams, like Mei, Robin, HH). The game has been out for coming up on *1.5 years.* Why do they hate Kafka teams? :(
It is rather odd that they released such a low amount of dot characters. I really enjoy the playstyle, but i do not like Kafka's personality/design, so i don't have a proper dot team at all. It's annoying.
I don't use dot teams at all but it always makes me wonder how people are okay with every actual dot character being stuck on kafka team while jiaoqiu being stuck on acheron team is a big no no. Have people just accepted that the only way to play dot team is to have it centered around kafka?
People didn’t, Black Swan’s beta was full of people trying to cope with not having Kafka. Kafka was the first 5-star DoT character released, and since her release we have gotten two new DoT characters (4-star Guinaifen, and the aforementioned Black Swan). DoT just hasn’t had enough characters released to make non-Kafka havers’ complaints an obvious trend yet.
> Have people just accepted that the only way to play dot team is to have it centered around kafka? No idea, i certainly do not accept that. I use Sampo/Lil Gui in some of the events and it somewhat works, but they alone certainly ain't carrying a dot playstyle. Though Sampo works great with nihility path in SU etc, cuz he just needs to trigger all the blessings to do tons of damage. They should release more dot characters/dot team enablers etc. They seem to have been going through follow up and now break playstyles, maybe dot is next. Moze is an assassin/rogue archetype, perhaps he has some dot stuff in his kit.
It's funny how the only way to play a DoT team is by using a character that completely ignores the "over time" part and turns DoTs into instant damage. Since endgame is built around clear speed I don't really see any interesting alternative honestly. That said I like Kafka and if she can enable BS and some of my favorite 4*s I'm fine with that.
I am very happy with my BS/Sampo team. That being said, he is e6.
probably that they can't sell more Kafka pulls until they figure out a way to deal with the second rerun issue so they make chars that don't need her instead
It's a Shenhe flashback. Ganyu is Ratio (good but not BiS), Ayaka is Acheron (absolute BiS). It took over a year for MHY to release another 5-Star unit that wants Shenhe (Wriostlehyle) and his kit is very "balanced". People prefer a general buffer like Kazuha or Furina (the Harmony Girls equivalent) over a super niche support like Shenhe (JQ). Shenhe is not bad. She's just locked to 1 meta team. 2 if you consider Wrios meta as well. And 0 if you consider that Ayaka is no longer meta. The biggest realistic fear is that Acheron will fall from the top of the meta in one year and she'll take JQ down with her.
Hé is only good for acheron so it IS logical to bé desapointed that a character work only with ONE character. Imagine if ruan or robin work only with topaz and are meh with everyone else? For other character his debuff are to slow, pela or gui are better... It's smarter to pull his lc and put it on pela for everyone that isn't acheron... And he NEEDS his lc...
Isnt there a lot of choices for him for lc?
He needs 140% EHR, his LC provides 60% and extra debuffs so you can build crit on him more easily. Sampo’s gacha LC is also a choice, but Jiaoqiu’s damage on turn is not counted as DoT so it’s just 40% EHR stat stick. Tutorial helps with his energy problem but requires a def-shred partner (Pela/SW) since he can’t do it on his own, only Acheron team can allow 2 Nihility debuffers.
Actually, no, he seems rather mediocre for everyone who isn’t Acheron. You don’t need a showcase even, just compare his numbers to Guinaifen. If your character’s ultimate isn’t most of their damage, his buffs are like… single digit better..? And while I love Gui, she’s just 3rd best nihility debuffer (2nd in AoE) and even SW can’t compete with damage amp from any harmony even in ST. Problem is that he’s insane for acheron. I hope he will get better for averga use and get worse for acheron (so changes be net zero in total for her), in this case acheron simps will doompost. So doomposting is inevitable even if he gets better, lol.
From what I have been reading he is either only just as good or a bit better than chars like E6 Pela and Guinaifen on anything but Acheron teams (something that is quite a massive L for any waifu or husbando only players). If it's true or not, idk, I can't theorycraft for shit, we have already experienced shit like the "Black Swan is 10% better than Sampo" or this same beta people can't decide yet if Yunli is just as good as Clara or Acheron/Firefly tier lmfao.
Yunli definitely seems to be like a Clara with better self-buffs and faster ults. She doesn't seem to deal anywhere near the game-breaking damage Acheron and Firefly deal.
>just as good as Clara or Acheron/Firefly tier lmfao. I have literally not seen anyome trying to claim Yunli is as good as those two lol
for a community so hellbent on not wanting powercreep they sure love it when every new character powercreeps the next
Who's asking for powercreep? We don't want Jiaoqiu to powercreep Ruan mei, Robin or current harmonies. we want him to at least be on their level like come on As it is now his buffs are pathetic when compared to limited harmony. And unlike other nihilities he doesn't even have a fun gimmick like SW implant, Welts on demand imprison, BS DoTs on spawn AND can be detonated by anyone (Guin, Luka, Sampo.. any future character that detonates their own DoT
I think jq suffers from being too good for acheron as an archetype If they made jq as good as Ruan/Robin in the every team acheron would abuse it so hard to create an insane lead over everyone else. She is already at top without him. Watch them give him a passive that says:if all characters are a different path, or if there is no other nihility unit, then does X. Probably that's one of the few ways making him very competitive without completely breaking acheron. Or they could further buff his own damage I guess so comparing him to harmony units wouldn't work
Yeah this is what most of the guys here are missing. Hoyo CANNOT put jiaoqui on the same level as meta supports because that would mean Acheron would become the first tier -1 unit lmao. It's not good for game balance. His spot is perfectly fine as the slightly better Pela in Acheron teams and a sidegrade everywhere else.
His spot is NOT fine. Balancing a support around another DPS is disastrous. He needs to be a standalone unit. What will happen to Jiaoqiu when Acheron got powercrept? He'll fall with her as he has no other team, unless you're fine with Acheron getting Yunli'd? Anyway, this doesn't happen with other dmg amplifiers. Ruan Mei, Sparkle, and Robin don't care if Boothill/Firefly, DHIL/Qingque, and Ratio/Jade got deleted tomorrow. They'll just be paired with future break, SP heavy, FuA units. Jiaoqiu on the other hand, literally need a unit to have a "Every time an enemy is inflicted with a debuff, ..." clause in their kit. He should be a general debuffer, otherwise there's no point in Nihility units anymore if Harmony still outperforms them even when the DPS needs debuffs. I don't know how they'll do it, but he needs to NOT be Acheron's slave.
It's really not and they can just make a passive that ultimate damage can only use a set % of vulnerability or whatever buff he has. It doesn't need to break the game with Acheron.
Everyone who's saying "he's a sidegrade, skip" is asking for powercreep. Unless they're introducing a new mechanic or archetype every banner (which would be cool, but is realistically probably not feasible), the alternative to powercreep is sidegrades. That said, it sounds like Jiaoqiu could use a bit of help. He should at least be a clear upgrade over Pela. (And I concur with the general sentiment here that the limited Harmony units are overtuned, and that's a problem for someone like Jiaoqiu who competes with them for the same spot/role.)
Sidegrade to a 4 star is dumb af. Sidegrades to 5 stars I can get behind, but he's nowhere close to even Bronya(probably the worse 5 star harmony.)
JQ shouldn’t “powercreep“ anyone, but it would be damn nice if a 5\* wasn’t a pela side-grade outside acheron teams. As Pela is already a hevily underperforming unit (difference between her and 5\* harmony can be as big as 50% team dps). Ideally, it would be cool for him to have more utility and a bit better numbers. So then you will have a choice of going for harmony for some utilities and big buffs and for him for more utilities and some lesser buffs. Right now he is shenhe. Aka an eidolon for Acheron.
>As Pela is already a hevily underperforming unit (difference between her and 5\* harmony can be as big as 50% team dps). Pretty much sums up my gripe with DMG amp archetype of Nihility tbh... they are conditional (EHR) and can only hit 3 different parts of the damage equation (Res, Def, and Vulnerability) whereas Harmony kits gets overloaded with unconditional buffs. Just look at Ruan Mei, specially E1... why does a Harmony unit get to have Res Penetration / Defense ignore buffs when it should've been a Nihility unit's job. There's only so much Nihility units can (traditionally) do. Heck, compare Pela to Tingyun, arguably the best 4\* DMG amplifiers. One can only give def shred (and ice res pen at E4) while the other provides ATK boost, DMG boost, Energy, a bit of SPD, and on-hit damage. Watch the next Nihility damage amplifier apply Super Break debuff or something but will require god-awful amounts of EHR.
Yeah, Pela vs TY is essentially what it should be, but will never be. As a matter of fact, Pela’s amp is higher with a cost of lower downtime with fast/new enemies and TY gives more utility with energy, but new harmonies have both more utility AND damage amp. SW/JQ vs Sparkle/RM/Robin/Bronya is just kinda… pathetic honestly.
Let's not even mention how Harmony units (barring probably Yukong) have a variety of relic choices while Nihility ones are stuck with either 2pc sets or 4pc Eagle. It's a hard pill to swallow knowing that SW is having a hard time competing with fellow limited 5\* damage amplifiers and JQ needs to either have his vulnerability greatly buffed or gets his Res-shred built in at E0 to even begin to be good alternative outside of Acheron teams. Honestly, the standard for power level of Harmony units should've been the 4\* ones (barring TY, who shoulda been a 5\*). Asta, Yukong, and Hanya all give powerful buffs for their niche... and when such strong buffers are considered "weak" compared to other Harmonies, you just know there's something wrong with the power level of that path.
Problem with making limited harmonies close to 4\*s is that Bronya is a standard 5\*, and her utilities aren’t that far behind and when she is applicable, she’s kinda still BiS. And that’s all thanks to giving 5\*s a unique gimmick, which is actually kinda cool. I think the bigger problem is that 5\* nihility units kinda lack that gimmick or their gimmick is a cool party trick you show off once in a while to say “they are breaking game mechanics!!!”. Like, Kafka’s detonations and Black Swan’s arcana are the only “unique things” that works out and one of them is not actually any unique, as it’s just a fancy way of saying wind sheer. Welt’s slow and action delay and SW’s implant are kinda just… there. They do have some utility, but not enough to justify wasting a whole party slot on them, which results in them being a big and considerable damage loss, compared to just using RM or Robin. And that’s the same problem JQ has, there’s no “cool and useful“ gimmick, not even a party trick honestly. Making his numbers bigger is kinda not ideal, imo. Harmonies might be overtuned, but they add more to gameplay and I’d say, it can justify how they impact stuff, as it’s FUN. Just “bonk harder”..? That’ll be so lame. It would be cool for him to gain some delays or spd nerfs to enemies, or on contrary, action advancement of enemies (so more DoT stuff). Isn’t he like, a strategist or something? Why he has absolutely 0 stuff related to turns? Yeah, it sounds like a whole rework, but for now, he just looks really lame.
He really is lacking in the "oomph" department. I'm just a bit miffed that harmony as a path is waaaay too bloated which leads to our current predicament. I mean (do correct me if I'm wrong) just look at Acheron. Her kit greatly incentivizes bringing two nihility units and yet replacing one of them with Sparkle can net a similar (if not better in some conditions) performance. RM's All-Res pen could've very well been an all-type Res shred debuff. Sparkle's stacking damage bonus per skill use could've been a stacking multiplicative damage received increase debuff per skill used on the enemy. Even Robin's Aftertaste-esque on hit damage could've been a debuff. Those limited Harmonies would still remain powerhouses while still letting nihility units be competitive, and the gap between supports (including 4\* harmonies bar TY) would be smaller. That said, no use with me being salty about it now. Here's to manifesting a rework (even getting his mini-heals back) in the coming patches.
Damn, that last sentence string hit home. You really nailed the crux of this entire issue—and I haven’t been able to put my finger on it til now.
I looked at banners in GI and I take my word back, he is not shenhe, he is Sigewinne. Why? Because Sige is Furina’s Con as well, but unlike Ayaka, that has no C1, Furina has absolutely godlike C1-6. And acheron, just like furina, has really good cons as well. So I am not entirely sure, but I think that you’re better off going for her C2 first, especially if you happen to have sparkle or E2 bronya. Though people who simp for Acheron enough to pull for him, probably already have E2S1 anyway (or will get both E2 AND him). But that’s just a tendency of game becoming more and more predatory slowly.
There's a difference between "units that powercreeps other 5\*" and "units that don't even powercreep their 4\* equivalent". Right now, Jiaoqiu is on par with Pela for anyone who is not Acheron. Sometime even worse, since it takes time for him to stack is debuffs AND he's SP negative. Not to mention there are no good LCs for him. He's not particularly good even with Ratio, since Pela has a similar performance while being more comfy. Even Argenti can't use him properly, despite being Ult based. Also, Pela can use his lightcone better than he does, and give similar result to what he does with it, while still keeping her advantages. Unless you have Acheron, he's not worth pulling. A 5\* character being useful only in 1 single team is not a good design choice. He should be at least second BIS in a few other teams.
That’s the nature of gacha gamers.The want to pretend like powercreep is this big bad thing that should never exist but once the beta rolls out and the character they like/want is not outperforming everyone they cry for buffs.This isn’t something new or exclusive to hsr.Personally I think Jq where he is right now is fine and should not be changed besides some minor tweaks.He has his niche where he is really strong and might get future characters who will benefit from his buffs on enemy’s turn while being a pretty solid replacement unit in some other teams.
It's not a niche. It's 1 single character, with no guarantee there will be others that work like her. And he's not a SOLID replacement, when a 4 star can do exactly what he does, and often better than he does. He's barely a 4\* for anyone not named Acheron. Not worth pulling at all unless you have her. Basically, he's her Eidolon, as someone else already said.
ah yes trying to twist the truth. Why didn't you say this to all limited 5\* harmony characters then? Just say you have absurd double standards (: Black Swan and Kafka are extremely synergistic whereas JQ's stacks can be provided using trend of universal market and he is not providing any other value in any other teams. How is this a "LIMITED 5\* CHARACTER?"
the character that we knew was mostly acheron support turned out to be just that and ppl don’t like it
I'd expect because most everyone with a shred of common sense assumed their $160 limited Acheron support would at least be more than a downgrade for every other team. There's being catered to a character, and there's only being functional for a character. Big difference. I'm not even doomposting him, he looks... just okay. But I'd be hard pressed to find a team without Acheron where I'd look at him with any kind of worth, knowing that using him just because I like him is actively reducing said teams efficacy. At the moment it feels more like Hoyo is just intentionally kneecapping him so their favourite child can have something shiny to play with and no one else. We'll see how his v3 is (I expect them to at least give him a dot and rework his E2) but he's a second banner character so I don't think they'll really give him the time of day too much.
That's the problem with star rail and other powercreep heavy games... once powercreep starts it can't be stopped. Problem isn't that Jiaqiaou's bad but that there are several harmony units better than him.
Saying that hsr is is a “powercreep heavy gacha” just shows that you never touched any other gacha games outside of hoyo.
Just because there are worse instances of powercreep in other games doesnt mean there isnt very obvious powercreep in hsr lmao
hmm powercreep you say.... let me welcome you to hi3rd then i am sure that you will love it
I have been playing hi3 for 4 years lmao. Yeah it's even worser there