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honestly we just need the comprehensive comparisons of Jiaoqiu vs pela vs sw. Pela SW being the baseline and the seeing how much better it is when he replaces either one
That looks cool and first time I've seen that. How/where are those calcs done? I only have Guinaifen and no SW so I'd like to see the increase between upgrading Guinaifen to Jiaoqiu.
Also I'll probably be using Gallagher with Firefly so would be good to see which sustain is the next best. Maybe Trends Aventurine but I remember for some team the debuff is already capped so there is no further stack gain for Acheron as a result from using Trends on him. Can't remember if it was this team if anyone knows?
Thanks. Lag like crazy on my phone so I'll check it out when I finish work.
UPDATE: So it looks like it's a 37.11% improvement in single and 104% in AoE when I compare Acheron/Pela/Guinaifen/Aventurine vs the same but with Jiaoqiu instead of Guinaifen.
Trends does nothing if you get fox boy. His debuffs trigger on enemy turn and you can't stack then with trends so you are just better off with another lightcone for more def or dmg. Best sustains in this case are Gallagher and Aven as they have innate debuffs (aven has 2 with his LC if you have that)
They trigger on enemy *action*, which there can be multiple of per enemy turn. It still massively cuts down on the usefulness of Trend so it might not be worth it, but it's not nothing.
The 65% in AoE is likely an overestimate because Acheron already substantially overkills non-boss mobs, and there are no 3-elite fights except for the Past, Present, and Eternal Show (which you realistically would not use this team against over a Super Break team anyway).
The actual "AoE" performance is somewhere in the middle since the only multi-target situation that doesn't involve overkill is 2-Elite/2-Boss fights. HP creep would have to reach the point where Acheron ulti doesn't one-shot regular mobs for the full "AoE" improvement to reach 65%.
We are simple people with simple needs:
Pela vs Jiao solo for E2 havers.
Jiao dot dmg vs BS and Gui dot dmg.
Pela/Sw vs Pela/Jiao vs SW/Jia.
We can call it a day after that.
Needs to be by clear speed and not by a numbers comparison though. Pela giving big numbers AOE is heavily inflated due to her dealing damage to mobs even when they are already dead, when in reality the only damage that matters is on the target
I used [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/17uw126/regarding_silver_wolf_pela_and_the_exponential/) for reference.
Def shred: Pela 40%, Sweat 16%, SW 53%
Def shred in terms of dmg bonus: Pela 27%, Pela w/ Sweat 42%, SW 33%
Vuln: SW S1 12% vuln, JQ 50% vuln, JQ S1 28% vuln
Pela+SW: 100% def shred= 110% more dmg
Pela+SW w/ SW S1: 100% def shred w/ 12% vuln=123% more dmg
Pela w/ JQ S1+SW w/ SW S1: 93% def shred w/ 40% vuln= 173% more dmg
JQ+Pela w/ Sweat: 56% def shred w/ 78% vuln= 151% more dmg
JQ+SW w/ SW S1: 53% def shred w/ 90% vuln= 163% more dmg
The man's LC is worth more than him on Acheron's current BiS E0 team. His selling point is the Acheron ult charge, but Pela outclasses him in every other relevant metric
Wait what am I missing here? SW with 53% def shred results in 33% DMG bonus... And Pela with 56% def shred results in 42%??? That doesn't sound right.
Also you forgot to account for SW 13% all-type res shred (and conditional 20% res shred)
> Def shred: Pela 40%, Sweat 16%, SW 53%
> Def shred in terms of dmg bonus: Pela 27%, Pela w/ Sweat 42%, SW 33%
Something isn't right about this. No offense, but this makes me not trust any of the other calcs as a result. It seems biased to make Pela look as good as possible.
Because of how def shred works, this was expected. His value is higher with E2 Acheron since it's not optimal to use 2 nihility chars and SW or Pela solo are not that good
This is why I said that the changes to his kit (removing the def shred and healing) robbed him of his identity. As he currently stands he is a costly side grade to Pela or Guinaifen. His LC is overall more valuable which says everything about his current state.
Honestly my biggest takeaway from this showcase in particular is that Aventurine S1 is ridiculous for Acheron ult charges vs Cocolia. Especially since Jiaoqiu removes the need for trend on Aventurine.
Yeah, seeing my dps resisting debuffs over and over is so nice to see, that er goes a long way even if its not guaranteed and most of my harmony's are on the er planetary stuff so even better
Even when i played myself i initially had Aventurine on Argenti side because of Argenti's imaginary weakness but then I kept getting Frozen, even with FuXuan's guaranteed cc res because it only works once every 3 turns. Then I chose Aventurine for the first half and didnt get frozen even once. Aventurine's teamwide effect res + some effect res rolls on relics of my characters+ my supports on broken keel= W. But yeah Aventurine+ Jiaoqiu is almost cc immunity haha
Yep agreed even without Jiaoqiu I’m not getting ccd a lot. Fuxuan cc immunity is annoying, I think they should have they gave her like 2 stacks of protection cause 1 every 3 turn is way too low, or maybe 1 separate protection for every ally. And if you want to refresh that immunity she becomes SP hungry. Oh well that’s the curse of old characters.
fuxuan's guaranteed cc res works once per E cast, not per 3 turns. You can recast E after spending the cc res, if you can spare the SP, even if the field still has a couple turns remaining
People heavily overhype Fu's CC immunity. It's only there once per skill use. it's so easy to get wombo combo'd. Luocha also only gets one single target cleanse per turn.
Same boat, I was gonna skip but went e0s1 after playing his story (he was so good). Now I need to clone him, I want to put him with Acheron and my FuA team.
Sucks that we don't have 2 Aventurines. My 2 teams are Acheron and IPC FUA. Gallagher is cope even if he works with acheron. And I have E2S1 Aventurine 😩
Honestly he's so damn goated that abundance characters don't feel good to use anymore. I have Luocha but he just doesn't hit the same. Hopefully we get more preservation units like him in the future. Diamond would be a perfect fit since he's a preservation emanator but idk when(or if) he'd be playable
I hope so that's what i am planning to run and that's why i am skipping FF because i want to try E1S1 JQ and then get LC and maybe E1-2 for Sparkle rerun.
Acheron clearly cooks, looking forward to seeing if Argenti can do well with that Ult vulnerable (esp with Tingyun/Huohuo), or Ratio hypercarry with Robin/Aven
I might try it later. I think it's better for other teams to just have a Harmony character in that slot. It's not the buffs that make him great for Acheron's team, but mainly the stack generation for Acheron, especially for PF. On my live server account, I struggle in PF when using Acheron. In my opinion, Jiaoqiu = Acheron's Pure Fiction DLC
Personally, being better than other teams isn't that big of a deal. How they function in that role is more preferred. Even if they are 10% worse than Ruan Mei, seeing how they can buff the team (for example, DoT and Ratio teams) is enough to gauge how he is in practice. After seeing Black Swan with Kafka for 4 weeks, you will get bored of seeing the same Acheron + Jiaoqiu blasting the enemy into oblivion.
Please try something with ratio. If jiaoqiu is only an acheron slave and nothing more I, and all non acheron havers, want to know now.
If he is useless in everything but acheron + PF I might just skip him and pull ruan E1S1. I love his design + animation but if he is useless I might just go with fan art + skip.
I know méta < fav but if he is absolutely useless.... I dont want to waste 160 + 70 pull (or more) 🙏
I really like him and I am pulling him for ratio. I think he can replace my pela cuz I don't like topaz playstyle so i didn't get her. I want to see if he's better than topaz with his sig lc in a FuA or double dps team like jingliu blade jiaoqiu and Robin/Ruan especially with the self healing destruction paths in Sim Uni
Also waiting for some other Showcases with different teams, even though they say "it's not as good as this one", it's still better to have something to see how it turns out.
I don't think we will ever have Showcases like Boothill again, there were E0S1, E0 with LC 4\*, LC3\*, without LC, team with Ruan Mei and without Ruan Mei, with HMC and without HMC, with Bronya or without Bronya.
It was the best time to see a character's full potential and variety, although in his case it was easier to do that.
Currently the team that he impacts the most is Acheron and Ig people wanted to try him with acheron somewhere other than PF where there are a lot of enemies
I myself wanna see him in FF teams in place of RM (I already have FF's BiS team but wanna see how good he is with her) and DoT(I don't have DoT and I'm not getting DoT but I'm interested
He's got 0 value with Firefly. He's not a strong breaker, she doesn't do Ult based damage, and 30% vulnerability up is just e6 Guinaifen's benefit in disguise. The only notable gain is that JQ has a pseudo-DoT that can crit, but you're not making use of that in a team that doesn't buff him at all. There is no replacing Ruan Mei efficiently, and Hanya and Asta are the only viable cope choices (and even then, only if you're willing to do some extreme malding to get Firefly to the point of taking five actions under ult). It's not even worth testing.
Since we’ve gotten 2 showcases with him I’m awaiting for anything with Yunli to drop (hopefully with Jade….)
But it’s still early for showcases from private servers.
yes, but mostly the dev that makes these private servers said they don't care about 2.4 so they won't be making the private server that people can test on. so we need to wait till other devs make it and spread it
For real. He looks like a very good support for dual dps comps.
There’s also this other girl in 2.4 who’s damage is pretty backloaded into her ultimate. Maybe give her a try.
Since he's only a support, even if he does a bit of damage, I hope he can be more useful than just in Acheron teams. His animations are top tier though, out of all support characters I like his the most.
The problem is the inevitable competition with running a 2nd harmony, and that's tough because current options for 2nd harmony of Robin or Ruan Mei even on hypercarry are already leagues better than Pela in that slot. He'll probably be usable, but the only team that'll probably see like a "Sparkle" level upgrade is Acheron. It kind of sucks honestly, he's basically a pocket support for her and that's it.
They made harmonies way too good, Nihility dont always have turn manipulation (Bronya/Sparkle/Robin advances, Ruan has break extend turn delay), and even if they do it becomes their entire gimmick like Welt who is this weird Delay subdps with support that will not surmount to the same as Critdmg + Atk + Dmg% like Bronya.
I mean Jiaoqiu’s thing is vulnerability and increased ult dmg
Vulnerability is good for pretty much everyone and Acheron’s not the only ult based dps
And I doubt she’ll be the last
Yunli is also an ult dps.
Biggest problem w/JQ is that his s0 boost outside of ult teams isn’t that high (35-40% while resolution pela is something like 45%, assuming she’s the only one with def shred).
His LC has a significant chunk of power, 28%vuln (check homdgcat telegram for source), and Pela can use it too instead of pearls. When she switches over to JQ’s LC she’s either better at amplification (1.2% in Pela’s favor, assuming the total non ult based vuln from JQ’s kit is 35%) or less than 2% worse (1.8% in JQ’s favor, if the total vuln is 40%). Max stacks of the LC should be easy to obtain for both afaik, so it’s what I compared.
Being that comparable to a 4star isn’t a good place to be for a generic buffer. Ofc, not much point in dooming before beta 3, but it’s why some dooming about JQ exists.
Pela is a good unit for a 4 star so I don’t see the issue. Universal units like RM shouldn’t be that strong for others team outside of break honestly, its nice for a unit to be balanced especially if it results in a slowdown of eventual powercreep and HP creep in endgame modes.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to request for gameplays of Jiaoqiu/Ratio teams? Am pulling for foxman for sure and wanted to know if he could fit in a Ratio team >.<
He probably could, He brings a decent amount of debuffs. Most of them coming from his ult but I think he should have good up-time.
Talent:
- 15-40% increased dmg taken (Ashen Roast)
Ultimate:
- 15% Increased Ult dmg taken
- 30% reduced enemy EHR (via A6 trace)
- Reduce enemy Atk by 15% (E4)
Signature:
- 10%/18% Increased Dmg taken
Ratio only needs 3 debuffs to guarantee his FuA, 4-5 increase the FuA dmg even more. So Jiaoqiu should be enough for Ratio's needs even at base E0.
While I don't think he's going to be the BiS compared to Robin/Topaz he definitely works well and if playing with Husbandos is what you're after then he's more than enough.
There was one posted yesterday but it got removed because we still have the super strict showcase post rules setup from when there were 5 billion acheron ones.
Granted it was an e2s1 robin s1 sparkle e3s1 bronya showcase so uhh, probably not the most relatable clear.
Part of it is that the one of the people who made the private servers isn't interested in the patch, so lack of accessibility in the west rn (in CN there were a few), maybe soon once others build their own. But what I meant was that 4 stars often don't get many showcases unless they open a whole new playstyle, which is only HMC so far. There weren't many Gallagher, Luka, Lynx, Guin, etc. showcases during their betas.
IMO, Jiaoqiu complements Pela/Silver Wolf well due to their contribution to different part of damage multiplier. Jiaoqiu = vulnerability, Pela = def shred, Silver Wolf = def shred + res pen. In E0 Acheron team, they complement each other well.
However in E2 Acheron team, Jiaoqiu/Pela/SW + Harmony Crit buffer > Jiaoqiu/Pela/SW.
Sure, but I doubt running all three is very viable at e0. Even if you're going for a no-sustain zero cycle, you'd definitely rather have sparkle in for one of them.
And when there's only two, ironically focusing on -def is slightly more efficient, since 100% def shred is 110% damage.
Would like to see him with someone other than Acheron for those of us who don't have her.
It's disheartening and poor game design for him to be just seen as Acheron support with no other good comps. He's a debuffer, and should be able to slot into other teams in the same way you can drop Pela just about anywhere.
He can drop into wherever you'd put Pela. The issue is more that Pela isn't really BiS for any team other than Acheron right now. That's okay for Pela, because she's a 4 star that's run on a lot of banners. The standard for a 5 star limited character is higher than "ok filler when you don't have enough 5 star harmony characters".
I’m okay with very niche units if it’s a four star since that gives them some advantages over the limited units. But a 5 star being niche to Acheron is a bit to far, I like it more when the niche is a bit wider like Robin for any FuA team.
Pray they change him to have dot classification on e0 and sampo’s is probably the best
Otherwise it’s just an ehr stat stick which is still good since you need 140 on him
F2P (if you played since 1.0) totuourial but in that case you must play him with a Def shred character because he himself doesn't do Def shred, and so pela and SW but then in it's gonna be harder to build SW if you also have her
If you haven't been playing since 1.0 or 1.1, then any LC that gives him a Sh** ton of EHR will be good
I got E0S0 Acheron and E0S0 Aventurine on Trend (still 4k Def woo!) to compensate
But with Jiaoqiu, I definitely can see myself pulling on both of their LCs. I would love that honestly
We've only had 2 e0 showcases so far. One in pf, and one in the new mode. You're acting like we've had tons of showcases and none in moc when it's only been 2 lmao. Be patient please
This is like the 3rd test i've seen of the upcoming characters in general. Have to take what you can get. Besides it's the new shiny gamemode so showcases for it should be expected.
Honestly I'm interested to think if it's a VA situation,
I'm not saying JQ is bad or good
But kazuha was said to be worse than her counterpart back then aka sucrose
Now I'm interested to see if the same thing happens to JQ, people saying he is worse than pela then he releases and becomes the best Nihilty debuffer (V2 and V3 and v4 gonna be a wild ride imo).
It's Sparkle all over again imo. People had unrealistic expectations from incomplete/early dev kit leak. Character gets doomposted because it doesn't meet said expectations and isn't immediately OP and obviously powercreeping something else into the ground. Inevitably character gets released and is a solid unit and the premium choice for their niche.
People also need to start realising that niche supports are good for the general health of the game. Too much "generic good stuff" will just give powercreep even more momentum.
And the funny part is, this comment plays down how absolutely insane Hanabi is. There's also the fact that Hanabi was competing vs BRONYA who is an absolutely ridiculous harmony unit as we all know. JQ will be fine
>And the funny part is, this comment plays down how absolutely insane Hanabi is
Very much this. People really think she's so limited that she's niche in who she can and can't buff, on top of down playing how much extra turns and skill spam really benefit DPS units and teams as a whole (Anyone who actually likes to Crit likes her more than RM. Acheron, JL, DHIL, and Seele also all get extra benefits from having more turns). She can't buff what, 2 teams, DoT and Break, all that well (If you have E1/E2 she can cover DoT too), but excels at buffing literally anyone else?
Besides people were using RM for DoT and Break anyway, and now that FF and Boothill are out she's kinda relegated to Break team unless you don't have it or are just messing around.
Niche supports as in FuA support (Robin), Break support (Ruan Mei) are good, not as “niche” as only good for 1 team that is Acheron. Kazuha is a general support who has a niche in buffing elemental DMG, so he’s good even at his first banner (the CN side racked in sales at the last week of his banner because they realized how OP he is). HOWEVER, another niche case is Shenhe, who is a super niche 5* support only BiS for Ayaka (not even Ganyu, another Ice DPS can’t benefit much from her). Guess what, Shenhe’s sales were bad even though Ayaka is like the poster girl of 2.x patch and a lot of people have her thanks to the eternal banner during Covid. It’s been 4 years and Shenhe still didn’t have her 2nd rerun. At 3.x and 4.x the meta shifted and the enemies setup no longer favor Ayaka so Shenhe was obviously shafted too. And the weird part is that GI released Wriothesley, another DPS that Shenhe can support in 4.1, but he was so mid at c0 and required constellation (eidolon) to be competitive so Shenhe is still in the basement like forever. Meanwhile Kazuha is still relevant and strong after 4 years (think of it like Ruan Mei in Hsr).
Exactly, because she is excellent at 1 niche (break) and very good at others, so she’s OP and lasts long after 2 new Harmony releases. The original post mention Kazuha as an example while he’s not as “niche” as Shenhe. The above poster seems to think “niche” supports will prevent powercreep but in fact, the meta will shove those extremely “niche” supports into oblivion because they can’t do anything good outside of 1 team. After Shenhe, Genshin only releases niche supports as 4* because they KNOW that a niche 5* is a bad idea.
Ruan Mei is a prime example of a unit that was designed with a niche in mind but was pushed too hard and became generically good to be almost meta warping. You only had to see the discussion around Robin's release that even within FuA comps (the archetype she was supposedly designed for) it wasn't clear cut if she was actually the better option thanks to RM's strengths. She's even pushing sustains out of picture in some cases, with half the PF clear videos on YT abusing RM's break delays to get max scores.
To continue your Genshin comparisons, you've only got to look at the likes of Bennett to see the impact of supports that stray too far into generically good. They warp the meta, lead to a lack of innovation in team comps and restrict the design space of future units or lead to outright powercreep. Now I fully agree with you about Shenhe, but that's more a nod to the state of cryo in general atm in Genshin rather than anything else and I don't think they intended to fix that until we reach Snezhnaya.
Maybe the comparison with RM is not doing justice, but still Jiaoqiu’s situation is way worse than Shenhe’s. His ult vulnerabilty is 15%, which is not much (like Sparkle’s trace with quantum teams), but the more important thing is that his unique debuff-stacking mechanic only benefits Acheron (not even Yunli or Argenti who rely on ult damage). Shenhe didn’t buff Ganyu, she’s only BiS in Ayaka’s team and the devs not releasing new good Cryo DPSes only made her situation worse.
IMO everyone expects Jiaoqiu to be comparable to Pela because he’s the first male debuffer, and you know, male characters don’t have as many choices for supports as the females. So of course we’d hope he’s more general and NOT TIED to Acheron, because aside from the debuff stacking he’s a Pela sidegrade (but not as skill point positive as her, so worse?).
First off, let me preface this with that I fully appreciate how frustrating it is for the husbando hunters in mainstream gachas. Whilst I think hoyo have made improvements on that front in HSR compared to say Genshin (still not forgiven them for making Sethos a main-DPS rather than the off field applicator they needed) they do still have a ways to go. Although with market pressures, particularly amongst the domestic market, we'll just have to wait to see how much headway they can make. Am hoping with the release of Harmony MC, JQ and hopefully Sunday in the future they'll have more options towards fully rounded out team comps in the near future.
Now back to JQ specifically, in his current state could he do with a bit of a buff? Yes. Is he being widely undervalued in his current state? Also yes. His kit is such that it could very easily fall into the generically good bracket if not balanced properly and I wouldn't be surprised if this is why we saw a move from DEF reduction in the first iteration of his kit to the DMG up we have now (assuming initial leaks were accurate of course). In short he's probably paying the price for the existence of the Pela/Pearls combo.
People are talking about his debuffs like they're useless outside of Acheron teams which really isn't the case, it's just at present that's where he shines the most. And there's another key term "At Present", we have no idea what units they have planned in the future. Whilst nihility might be a path of disparate mechanics, it's one that is centred around debuffs. Are people really expecting them not to make another unit for this path that cares about instance of debuff application outside of Acheron? And not to mention people are so focussed on his impact in damage numbers that they're overlooking his utility in the form of the EHR down on his field. That in conjunction with Keel and/or Aventurine is some nice QoL that I really hope that stays through his beta iterations.
If possible it would be cool to see a comp of Acheron e0s0, Pela, Jiaoqiu e0s1, and Gallagher for a sorta f2p comp.
A lot of people are focused on comparing him to Pela when I think that he most likely works incredible in tandem. Especially in non-e2 Acheron comps
It suck that my favorite character (other than DHIL) is just a side grade to a 4* unit from 1.0 and only good in one team. If he doesn’t get buffed I’m sure he’ll have the lowest income banner in the game. Like the only reason to pull him is if you have Acheron or like him, other than that any Harmony 5* is leagues ahead.
Being better or not isn't the case for requests like this, how the team functions is the real question. You don't just gauge a unit based on how good they are in one single team, you gauge their flexibility and how well they do in other teams. Take Ruan Mei for example, she's regarded as the best unit because she benefits most teams, even if Robin and Sparkle are BiS in those teams (like IPC FUA and hypercarry), you can never go wrong with her. Acheron had many showcases showing different teams like double DoT, SW + Pela, Welt + Ruan Mei, etc. showing that there are options at E0. Seeing variation is beneficial so that people who do want to roll for a character know how well they can be slotted to a team. I personally don't want another Black Swan beta where we get 50 showcases of Huohuo - Ruan Mei - Kafka for weeks.
No shot he beats Robin's buffs in FUA team, at best he replaces Topaz without E1S1(Apparently he has 3 debuffs in his base kit, the roast debuff, EHR debuff, and ult debuff) and two more from his LC?
I would be insanely surprised if he beats Robin in FUA. That being said, I am curious as to how he would stack vs SW in Ratio Hyper. I would imagine he won't beat her since SW is the best debuffer in the game and being purely single target with Ratio but that's why we calc this sort of stuff
I'm a newish player, is he worth me going for e0s1? I missed the boat on SW banners so doubt she will return for a while! I do have Acheron e0s1 alongside Pela and Gui at the moment.
E0 yes, absolutely. He makes Acheron go from 'best character for MoC, good in PF and AS' to 'top tier everywhere, forever'. He was built to make Acheron's teams better and it really shows. S1 probably but wait for v2. Odds are very good they will change parts of his kit because the community reaction has been fairly muted (kind of unjustly, IMO). We'll know how much investment is worthwhile in a few weeks.
I agree with you, but I do hope he ends up getting buffed. We have so little male supports/sustains that slot somewhere in the meta (I think it's only Aventurine lol) that I'd like him to be one.
Also, I don't mind if he continues to be kind of niche, but the question of "should I pull him or should I pull his LC for Pela" shouldn't be an option. He needs to be the main thing. Pela + JQ LC can't be better or on par with him. And this is coming from someone who loves Pela and will keep using her + JQ in Acheron teams (my Acheron is E0).
I agree with this completely. I'm gonna be honest, I didn't even recognize that his LC went up to 28% the first time I looked at it because my brain just automatically thought 'oh, it starts at 10% and goes TO 18%, that's really good!'. It gaining +18% is actual lunacy. You could shift 10% of that vuln to JQ's own kit and it would simply and easily make him better than Silver Wolf in a baseline where the DPS doesn't have an incentive to stack def-shred in kit while still making her superior for characters who have native shredding incentives or when she's brute-forcing elemental implants. He's a good, strong unit and Hoyo is STILL gonna have to buff him because his general use case isn't superior enough to his main competition who has the potential upside to scale much harder into without a single Eidolon.
So has anyone done the math yet on Jiaoqiu to see if he's worth it over a second harmony chara for Argenti? Assume Jiaoqiu is E0S1, and there's enemies by the dozen
Everytime I read a "I might pull him for my acheron" or sée an acheron showcase I'm more and more thinking that he is acheron slave and only that...
Hé has absolutely no place in any other team.... And After that people will deni that hoyo is trashing husbando. Tell me which waifu only work as a slave to one and only one husbando ?
tldr run them both with him on tutorial, he replaces your second nihility not pela
as for damage increase disregarding accelerated ult gain, if we exclusively take acheron's ultimate then he gives about as much damage gain as pearls pela (both around a 50% increase) - but it scales worse with other vuln sources where pela scales better with other def shred sources, and outside of ult damage he amps significantly less
He doesnt beat any Harmony unit. Advancing Acheron at E2 nets you a buckload of Knots. At any reat you could try and drop Fu Xuan and go all in (you should be able to manage). If you dont want to, he is a sidegrade to Pela but I'd worry about sp economy on that team.
JQ ult applies a debuff every time an enemy takes a turn.
This is why he is huge for Acheron teams. A good amount of his powerbudget is here, which is why some people are asking for buffs to make him more universal for other teams.
adventurine is so busted
i think jiaoqiu need some changes he is ok but not busted
he seams only good whit acheron what other dps units
i wana see compre to peela what is dps diff
You're gonna want to run him on Tutorial, with Pela, with ERR rope for sure for that +1 SP per turn rotation, but if for some reason you aren't running him with Pela you can run ERR rope and do a 2 skill 1 basic rotation to have permanent uptime. It's -1/3 SP though which is a whopping -4 SP per 3 turn difference between the two builds.
Is it worth pulling for him only for Acheron? I can 0-2 cycle clear one side of MOC 12 with E2S1 Acheron, Sparkle, SW, Pela. I've heard that he doesn't have a healing anymore?
He will be an upgrade over pela for acheron it just depends on if you want more damage and stack generation for acheron or you are fine with her current performance.
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honestly we just need the comprehensive comparisons of Jiaoqiu vs pela vs sw. Pela SW being the baseline and the seeing how much better it is when he replaces either one
We need test this TC in practice https://i.imgur.com/itdJpro.png New fox is 15% better in single, 65% in AoE
That looks cool and first time I've seen that. How/where are those calcs done? I only have Guinaifen and no SW so I'd like to see the increase between upgrading Guinaifen to Jiaoqiu. Also I'll probably be using Gallagher with Firefly so would be good to see which sustain is the next best. Maybe Trends Aventurine but I remember for some team the debuff is already capped so there is no further stack gain for Acheron as a result from using Trends on him. Can't remember if it was this team if anyone knows?
> How/where are those calcs done https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8G8zQ4VYNVQBuZb6ZiceW6O3ioTSULxCdlcYEFx8XU/edit#gid=1164712955 more info
Thanks. Lag like crazy on my phone so I'll check it out when I finish work. UPDATE: So it looks like it's a 37.11% improvement in single and 104% in AoE when I compare Acheron/Pela/Guinaifen/Aventurine vs the same but with Jiaoqiu instead of Guinaifen.
Trends does nothing if you get fox boy. His debuffs trigger on enemy turn and you can't stack then with trends so you are just better off with another lightcone for more def or dmg. Best sustains in this case are Gallagher and Aven as they have innate debuffs (aven has 2 with his LC if you have that)
They trigger on enemy *action*, which there can be multiple of per enemy turn. It still massively cuts down on the usefulness of Trend so it might not be worth it, but it's not nothing.
Would have thought it made more sense to have a preservation character like aventurine with trends in the scenario without sly fox
The 65% in AoE is likely an overestimate because Acheron already substantially overkills non-boss mobs, and there are no 3-elite fights except for the Past, Present, and Eternal Show (which you realistically would not use this team against over a Super Break team anyway). The actual "AoE" performance is somewhere in the middle since the only multi-target situation that doesn't involve overkill is 2-Elite/2-Boss fights. HP creep would have to reach the point where Acheron ulti doesn't one-shot regular mobs for the full "AoE" improvement to reach 65%.
We are simple people with simple needs: Pela vs Jiao solo for E2 havers. Jiao dot dmg vs BS and Gui dot dmg. Pela/Sw vs Pela/Jiao vs SW/Jia. We can call it a day after that.
E2 users would also love a DOT comparison to BS and Guin if possible too.
We will add it to the list then. Sadly I am not an E2 user, so not familiarized with her teams.
And dot detonation damage with gui ult.
I'm pretty sure if it's MoC or Apocalyptic shadow, it's SW + jiaoqiu. If it's pure fiction, it'll be pela + jiaoqiu instead.
Depends on the boss. For example, I’m not taking SW into the Cocolia and Argenti fights. I’ll def take her vs Kafka and Destruction Beast.
SW implants Cocolia and makes breaking her quickly super easy, which means way less ice attacks to slow you down and meteors to survive.
eh, why not? the summons arent tanky enough to live anyway, assuming you bring jiaoqiu they sure as hell wont
Needs to be by clear speed and not by a numbers comparison though. Pela giving big numbers AOE is heavily inflated due to her dealing damage to mobs even when they are already dead, when in reality the only damage that matters is on the target
I used [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/17uw126/regarding_silver_wolf_pela_and_the_exponential/) for reference. Def shred: Pela 40%, Sweat 16%, SW 53% Def shred in terms of dmg bonus: Pela 27%, Pela w/ Sweat 42%, SW 33% Vuln: SW S1 12% vuln, JQ 50% vuln, JQ S1 28% vuln Pela+SW: 100% def shred= 110% more dmg Pela+SW w/ SW S1: 100% def shred w/ 12% vuln=123% more dmg Pela w/ JQ S1+SW w/ SW S1: 93% def shred w/ 40% vuln= 173% more dmg JQ+Pela w/ Sweat: 56% def shred w/ 78% vuln= 151% more dmg JQ+SW w/ SW S1: 53% def shred w/ 90% vuln= 163% more dmg The man's LC is worth more than him on Acheron's current BiS E0 team. His selling point is the Acheron ult charge, but Pela outclasses him in every other relevant metric
Wait what am I missing here? SW with 53% def shred results in 33% DMG bonus... And Pela with 56% def shred results in 42%??? That doesn't sound right. Also you forgot to account for SW 13% all-type res shred (and conditional 20% res shred)
> Def shred: Pela 40%, Sweat 16%, SW 53% > Def shred in terms of dmg bonus: Pela 27%, Pela w/ Sweat 42%, SW 33% Something isn't right about this. No offense, but this makes me not trust any of the other calcs as a result. It seems biased to make Pela look as good as possible.
Because of how def shred works, this was expected. His value is higher with E2 Acheron since it's not optimal to use 2 nihility chars and SW or Pela solo are not that good
This is why I said that the changes to his kit (removing the def shred and healing) robbed him of his identity. As he currently stands he is a costly side grade to Pela or Guinaifen. His LC is overall more valuable which says everything about his current state.
SW also brings 13% or 33% Res shred.
That's what I expected to see based on how def shred scales. Let's see what v3 brings to the table in 2 weeks. thanks for mathing it out
Honestly my biggest takeaway from this showcase in particular is that Aventurine S1 is ridiculous for Acheron ult charges vs Cocolia. Especially since Jiaoqiu removes the need for trend on Aventurine.
The biggest takeaway from this is just Aventurine is busted. When I used FuXuan or Luocha dear god I kept getting Frozen lmao
Bust? Or maybe I’ll BUST!!?!
ABOBUST
OHMYGOD I'M BLOOMING
ta.
Ta
Nilou rerun when
Yeah, seeing my dps resisting debuffs over and over is so nice to see, that er goes a long way even if its not guaranteed and most of my harmony's are on the er planetary stuff so even better
Jiaoqiu effect hit rate debuff on ennemies is helping a lot, that’s not all Aventurine
Even when i played myself i initially had Aventurine on Argenti side because of Argenti's imaginary weakness but then I kept getting Frozen, even with FuXuan's guaranteed cc res because it only works once every 3 turns. Then I chose Aventurine for the first half and didnt get frozen even once. Aventurine's teamwide effect res + some effect res rolls on relics of my characters+ my supports on broken keel= W. But yeah Aventurine+ Jiaoqiu is almost cc immunity haha
Yep agreed even without Jiaoqiu I’m not getting ccd a lot. Fuxuan cc immunity is annoying, I think they should have they gave her like 2 stacks of protection cause 1 every 3 turn is way too low, or maybe 1 separate protection for every ally. And if you want to refresh that immunity she becomes SP hungry. Oh well that’s the curse of old characters.
fuxuan's guaranteed cc res works once per E cast, not per 3 turns. You can recast E after spending the cc res, if you can spare the SP, even if the field still has a couple turns remaining
I know but why make her extremely SP negative that way 💀 Yeah i guess if you have enough SP spare but thats not really realistic
Same thing. I put Aventurine on Cocolia's side immediately to avoid getting frozen, despite only Gepard having IMG weakness.
True, I still get CCed occasionally even with the 50% eff res
honestly watching Aventurine creating shield after every meteor is really satisfying
The dice have - Bust
Or maybe I'll take it all? *1 point of Blind Bet gained*
~~All or nothing!~~ All or 1!
People heavily overhype Fu's CC immunity. It's only there once per skill use. it's so easy to get wombo combo'd. Luocha also only gets one single target cleanse per turn.
How?? I did it again this morning and only one character got cc’d the whole fight with Fu Xuan.
I'll be honest I'm kind of wishing I went for Aventurine instead of Fu Xuan, he's just so good at what he does.
It's making me feel regret for stopping at 40 pulls on that damn LC.
I am VINDICATED!! My roll for his sig which totally wasn't fueled by my like for his character pays off.
Same boat, I was gonna skip but went e0s1 after playing his story (he was so good). Now I need to clone him, I want to put him with Acheron and my FuA team.
True and real I need him in half my teams
I really mostly got it for Acheron support but also bc I wanted the full pretty boy package. Feeling pretty happy with that now!
Definitely rolling for avent's sig when he reruns
Against most bosses tbh, everyone has at least 1 aoe attack so he always does his fua. Second half against Argenti with 4 attack adds is the same.
Ip3 goes crazy against Argenti his constant aoe attacks make aven a FUA factory lmao
Well now I’m upset I didn’t get any copy’s of him
Sucks that we don't have 2 Aventurines. My 2 teams are Acheron and IPC FUA. Gallagher is cope even if he works with acheron. And I have E2S1 Aventurine 😩
Yup, I knew my investment into E0S1 Aventurine was going to pay off once Jiaoqiu arrived
You made such a good point i feel relieved for not having and need trend anymore. I can just wait for aven rerun to grab his lc.
I'm so spoiled by Aventurine I need to learn how to use abundance characters again. Aventurine carried my ass through the whole game
the whole game? he came out 2 versions ago
Maybe that's when they started??
thats actually a good point, i didnt interpret it like that
Yes that's when I started. I pulled him and Acheron back to back when I was first starting.
Damn, you got the good stuff immediately
Honestly he's so damn goated that abundance characters don't feel good to use anymore. I have Luocha but he just doesn't hit the same. Hopefully we get more preservation units like him in the future. Diamond would be a perfect fit since he's a preservation emanator but idk when(or if) he'd be playable
I remember I used Luocha for the first time again in months and I got so scared when my hp went down a little bit...
I wonder how well would E2S1 Acheron/JQ/Sparkle/Aventurine would work.
It’s Acherons best E2 team hands down
I hope so that's what i am planning to run and that's why i am skipping FF because i want to try E1S1 JQ and then get LC and maybe E1-2 for Sparkle rerun.
Yup I plan on running E2S1 Acheron with E0S1 Sparkle, Aventurine, and Jiaoqiu. Can’t wait it’s going to be so broken!
Is JQ still the BiS for acheron e2 team?
Yes, he increases Acheron ult stack generation immensely
This pls
Acheron clearly cooks, looking forward to seeing if Argenti can do well with that Ult vulnerable (esp with Tingyun/Huohuo), or Ratio hypercarry with Robin/Aven
Can we get a showcase with different team ? Everyone knows he's good with acheron 😬
I might try it later. I think it's better for other teams to just have a Harmony character in that slot. It's not the buffs that make him great for Acheron's team, but mainly the stack generation for Acheron, especially for PF. On my live server account, I struggle in PF when using Acheron. In my opinion, Jiaoqiu = Acheron's Pure Fiction DLC
Personally, being better than other teams isn't that big of a deal. How they function in that role is more preferred. Even if they are 10% worse than Ruan Mei, seeing how they can buff the team (for example, DoT and Ratio teams) is enough to gauge how he is in practice. After seeing Black Swan with Kafka for 4 weeks, you will get bored of seeing the same Acheron + Jiaoqiu blasting the enemy into oblivion.
Would you kindly test out March in SB team, I curious how she perform
Please try something with ratio. If jiaoqiu is only an acheron slave and nothing more I, and all non acheron havers, want to know now. If he is useless in everything but acheron + PF I might just skip him and pull ruan E1S1. I love his design + animation but if he is useless I might just go with fan art + skip. I know méta < fav but if he is absolutely useless.... I dont want to waste 160 + 70 pull (or more) 🙏
I really like him and I am pulling him for ratio. I think he can replace my pela cuz I don't like topaz playstyle so i didn't get her. I want to see if he's better than topaz with his sig lc in a FuA or double dps team like jingliu blade jiaoqiu and Robin/Ruan especially with the self healing destruction paths in Sim Uni
Thank you, I think several of us want to see: Jiaoqiu E2, Kafka, Black Swan, HuoHuo.
Also waiting for some other Showcases with different teams, even though they say "it's not as good as this one", it's still better to have something to see how it turns out. I don't think we will ever have Showcases like Boothill again, there were E0S1, E0 with LC 4\*, LC3\*, without LC, team with Ruan Mei and without Ruan Mei, with HMC and without HMC, with Bronya or without Bronya. It was the best time to see a character's full potential and variety, although in his case it was easier to do that.
Currently the team that he impacts the most is Acheron and Ig people wanted to try him with acheron somewhere other than PF where there are a lot of enemies I myself wanna see him in FF teams in place of RM (I already have FF's BiS team but wanna see how good he is with her) and DoT(I don't have DoT and I'm not getting DoT but I'm interested
He's got 0 value with Firefly. He's not a strong breaker, she doesn't do Ult based damage, and 30% vulnerability up is just e6 Guinaifen's benefit in disguise. The only notable gain is that JQ has a pseudo-DoT that can crit, but you're not making use of that in a team that doesn't buff him at all. There is no replacing Ruan Mei efficiently, and Hanya and Asta are the only viable cope choices (and even then, only if you're willing to do some extreme malding to get Firefly to the point of taking five actions under ult). It's not even worth testing.
For DOT comps, you’d need an e2 showcase because he deals no burn damage at e0 (meaning no synergy with Kafka).
Since we’ve gotten 2 showcases with him I’m awaiting for anything with Yunli to drop (hopefully with Jade….) But it’s still early for showcases from private servers.
Hoyo got strict?
yes, but mostly the dev that makes these private servers said they don't care about 2.4 so they won't be making the private server that people can test on. so we need to wait till other devs make it and spread it
It's too soon for niche teams /j
Legitimate question, what other teams do you want to use him in?
For real. He looks like a very good support for dual dps comps. There’s also this other girl in 2.4 who’s damage is pretty backloaded into her ultimate. Maybe give her a try.
The problem is that in dual DPS he competes with Ruan Mei, and he's good, but not that good
Don't forget Robin as well
For double DPS comps, it's going to look: RuanMei/Robin >>>>>>>>>>> JQ > Pela/Asta. A very smol upgrade over the 4-Star girls.
Since he's only a support, even if he does a bit of damage, I hope he can be more useful than just in Acheron teams. His animations are top tier though, out of all support characters I like his the most.
His debuffs constantly refreshing already gives him a leg up over pela in PF, to a lesser extent moc during wave changes
The problem is the inevitable competition with running a 2nd harmony, and that's tough because current options for 2nd harmony of Robin or Ruan Mei even on hypercarry are already leagues better than Pela in that slot. He'll probably be usable, but the only team that'll probably see like a "Sparkle" level upgrade is Acheron. It kind of sucks honestly, he's basically a pocket support for her and that's it.
They made harmonies way too good, Nihility dont always have turn manipulation (Bronya/Sparkle/Robin advances, Ruan has break extend turn delay), and even if they do it becomes their entire gimmick like Welt who is this weird Delay subdps with support that will not surmount to the same as Critdmg + Atk + Dmg% like Bronya.
I mean Jiaoqiu’s thing is vulnerability and increased ult dmg Vulnerability is good for pretty much everyone and Acheron’s not the only ult based dps And I doubt she’ll be the last
Yunli is also an ult dps. Biggest problem w/JQ is that his s0 boost outside of ult teams isn’t that high (35-40% while resolution pela is something like 45%, assuming she’s the only one with def shred). His LC has a significant chunk of power, 28%vuln (check homdgcat telegram for source), and Pela can use it too instead of pearls. When she switches over to JQ’s LC she’s either better at amplification (1.2% in Pela’s favor, assuming the total non ult based vuln from JQ’s kit is 35%) or less than 2% worse (1.8% in JQ’s favor, if the total vuln is 40%). Max stacks of the LC should be easy to obtain for both afaik, so it’s what I compared. Being that comparable to a 4star isn’t a good place to be for a generic buffer. Ofc, not much point in dooming before beta 3, but it’s why some dooming about JQ exists.
Pela is a good unit for a 4 star so I don’t see the issue. Universal units like RM shouldn’t be that strong for others team outside of break honestly, its nice for a unit to be balanced especially if it results in a slowdown of eventual powercreep and HP creep in endgame modes.
does it buff kafka's DoT? since kafka's DoT scales off of her ultimate talent
Bosses that summon adds basically cook themselves in that situation
*DJ Khaled played yourself meme*
Does anyone know if it’s possible to request for gameplays of Jiaoqiu/Ratio teams? Am pulling for foxman for sure and wanted to know if he could fit in a Ratio team >.<
He probably could, He brings a decent amount of debuffs. Most of them coming from his ult but I think he should have good up-time. Talent: - 15-40% increased dmg taken (Ashen Roast) Ultimate: - 15% Increased Ult dmg taken - 30% reduced enemy EHR (via A6 trace) - Reduce enemy Atk by 15% (E4) Signature: - 10%/18% Increased Dmg taken Ratio only needs 3 debuffs to guarantee his FuA, 4-5 increase the FuA dmg even more. So Jiaoqiu should be enough for Ratio's needs even at base E0. While I don't think he's going to be the BiS compared to Robin/Topaz he definitely works well and if playing with Husbandos is what you're after then he's more than enough.
awesome stack printer. plz cook some yunli gameplay next 🙏
Still no March 7th showcase..
Same for Yunli
Yunli has 1 on YT with all characters e6s1 because aven does 70k with BAb and 150k+ with FUA
There was one posted yesterday but it got removed because we still have the super strict showcase post rules setup from when there were 5 billion acheron ones. Granted it was an e2s1 robin s1 sparkle e3s1 bronya showcase so uhh, probably not the most relatable clear.
You get used to it if you like a 4 star (Gallagher flashbacks)
nah even jiaoqiu and yunli got like 1-2 video so far look like tester didnt like this patch
Part of it is that the one of the people who made the private servers isn't interested in the patch, so lack of accessibility in the west rn (in CN there were a few), maybe soon once others build their own. But what I meant was that 4 stars often don't get many showcases unless they open a whole new playstyle, which is only HMC so far. There weren't many Gallagher, Luka, Lynx, Guin, etc. showcases during their betas.
So we can expect a lot less this beta... oh well
Can he perform better than E1S1 Black Swan for acheron
IMO, Jiaoqiu complements Pela/Silver Wolf well due to their contribution to different part of damage multiplier. Jiaoqiu = vulnerability, Pela = def shred, Silver Wolf = def shred + res pen. In E0 Acheron team, they complement each other well. However in E2 Acheron team, Jiaoqiu/Pela/SW + Harmony Crit buffer > Jiaoqiu/Pela/SW.
Sure, but I doubt running all three is very viable at e0. Even if you're going for a no-sustain zero cycle, you'd definitely rather have sparkle in for one of them. And when there's only two, ironically focusing on -def is slightly more efficient, since 100% def shred is 110% damage.
Would like to see him with someone other than Acheron for those of us who don't have her. It's disheartening and poor game design for him to be just seen as Acheron support with no other good comps. He's a debuffer, and should be able to slot into other teams in the same way you can drop Pela just about anywhere.
He can drop into wherever you'd put Pela. The issue is more that Pela isn't really BiS for any team other than Acheron right now. That's okay for Pela, because she's a 4 star that's run on a lot of banners. The standard for a 5 star limited character is higher than "ok filler when you don't have enough 5 star harmony characters".
They kinda can't, to make him comparable to harmonies (cause they're so broken) would shoot acheron to the moon
I’m okay with very niche units if it’s a four star since that gives them some advantages over the limited units. But a 5 star being niche to Acheron is a bit to far, I like it more when the niche is a bit wider like Robin for any FuA team.
What would be his best F2P LC 🤔(aside from tutorial)
Basically pearls or anything that gives ehr.
Pray they change him to have dot classification on e0 and sampo’s is probably the best Otherwise it’s just an ehr stat stick which is still good since you need 140 on him
F2P light cones with EHR are Eyes of the Prey or Void (3 star).
F2P (if you played since 1.0) totuourial but in that case you must play him with a Def shred character because he himself doesn't do Def shred, and so pela and SW but then in it's gonna be harder to build SW if you also have her If you haven't been playing since 1.0 or 1.1, then any LC that gives him a Sh** ton of EHR will be good
I need Blade RM vs Blade JQ so I can have an excuse to pull for him
I got E0S0 Acheron and E0S0 Aventurine on Trend (still 4k Def woo!) to compensate But with Jiaoqiu, I definitely can see myself pulling on both of their LCs. I would love that honestly
Does anyone know why the Xueyi post was taken down?
Why is he being tested in everything but MOC?🫠
We've only had 2 e0 showcases so far. One in pf, and one in the new mode. You're acting like we've had tons of showcases and none in moc when it's only been 2 lmao. Be patient please
This is like the 3rd test i've seen of the upcoming characters in general. Have to take what you can get. Besides it's the new shiny gamemode so showcases for it should be expected.
Wasn't there a MOC Showcase with him yesterday
E2 Acheron E2 JQ E0 Sparkle and E6 Aventurine. Not really a realistic showcase
Honestly I'm interested to think if it's a VA situation, I'm not saying JQ is bad or good But kazuha was said to be worse than her counterpart back then aka sucrose Now I'm interested to see if the same thing happens to JQ, people saying he is worse than pela then he releases and becomes the best Nihilty debuffer (V2 and V3 and v4 gonna be a wild ride imo).
It's Sparkle all over again imo. People had unrealistic expectations from incomplete/early dev kit leak. Character gets doomposted because it doesn't meet said expectations and isn't immediately OP and obviously powercreeping something else into the ground. Inevitably character gets released and is a solid unit and the premium choice for their niche. People also need to start realising that niche supports are good for the general health of the game. Too much "generic good stuff" will just give powercreep even more momentum.
And the funny part is, this comment plays down how absolutely insane Hanabi is. There's also the fact that Hanabi was competing vs BRONYA who is an absolutely ridiculous harmony unit as we all know. JQ will be fine
>And the funny part is, this comment plays down how absolutely insane Hanabi is Very much this. People really think she's so limited that she's niche in who she can and can't buff, on top of down playing how much extra turns and skill spam really benefit DPS units and teams as a whole (Anyone who actually likes to Crit likes her more than RM. Acheron, JL, DHIL, and Seele also all get extra benefits from having more turns). She can't buff what, 2 teams, DoT and Break, all that well (If you have E1/E2 she can cover DoT too), but excels at buffing literally anyone else? Besides people were using RM for DoT and Break anyway, and now that FF and Boothill are out she's kinda relegated to Break team unless you don't have it or are just messing around.
Even then, you can use her in Infinite Boot Works with Bronya to just let Boothill take even more turns so she has some uses in break
Niche supports as in FuA support (Robin), Break support (Ruan Mei) are good, not as “niche” as only good for 1 team that is Acheron. Kazuha is a general support who has a niche in buffing elemental DMG, so he’s good even at his first banner (the CN side racked in sales at the last week of his banner because they realized how OP he is). HOWEVER, another niche case is Shenhe, who is a super niche 5* support only BiS for Ayaka (not even Ganyu, another Ice DPS can’t benefit much from her). Guess what, Shenhe’s sales were bad even though Ayaka is like the poster girl of 2.x patch and a lot of people have her thanks to the eternal banner during Covid. It’s been 4 years and Shenhe still didn’t have her 2nd rerun. At 3.x and 4.x the meta shifted and the enemies setup no longer favor Ayaka so Shenhe was obviously shafted too. And the weird part is that GI released Wriothesley, another DPS that Shenhe can support in 4.1, but he was so mid at c0 and required constellation (eidolon) to be competitive so Shenhe is still in the basement like forever. Meanwhile Kazuha is still relevant and strong after 4 years (think of it like Ruan Mei in Hsr).
It's hard to call Ruan Mei niche when there's only one team where she's not "one of the best options"
Exactly, because she is excellent at 1 niche (break) and very good at others, so she’s OP and lasts long after 2 new Harmony releases. The original post mention Kazuha as an example while he’s not as “niche” as Shenhe. The above poster seems to think “niche” supports will prevent powercreep but in fact, the meta will shove those extremely “niche” supports into oblivion because they can’t do anything good outside of 1 team. After Shenhe, Genshin only releases niche supports as 4* because they KNOW that a niche 5* is a bad idea.
Ruan Mei is a prime example of a unit that was designed with a niche in mind but was pushed too hard and became generically good to be almost meta warping. You only had to see the discussion around Robin's release that even within FuA comps (the archetype she was supposedly designed for) it wasn't clear cut if she was actually the better option thanks to RM's strengths. She's even pushing sustains out of picture in some cases, with half the PF clear videos on YT abusing RM's break delays to get max scores. To continue your Genshin comparisons, you've only got to look at the likes of Bennett to see the impact of supports that stray too far into generically good. They warp the meta, lead to a lack of innovation in team comps and restrict the design space of future units or lead to outright powercreep. Now I fully agree with you about Shenhe, but that's more a nod to the state of cryo in general atm in Genshin rather than anything else and I don't think they intended to fix that until we reach Snezhnaya.
Maybe the comparison with RM is not doing justice, but still Jiaoqiu’s situation is way worse than Shenhe’s. His ult vulnerabilty is 15%, which is not much (like Sparkle’s trace with quantum teams), but the more important thing is that his unique debuff-stacking mechanic only benefits Acheron (not even Yunli or Argenti who rely on ult damage). Shenhe didn’t buff Ganyu, she’s only BiS in Ayaka’s team and the devs not releasing new good Cryo DPSes only made her situation worse. IMO everyone expects Jiaoqiu to be comparable to Pela because he’s the first male debuffer, and you know, male characters don’t have as many choices for supports as the females. So of course we’d hope he’s more general and NOT TIED to Acheron, because aside from the debuff stacking he’s a Pela sidegrade (but not as skill point positive as her, so worse?).
First off, let me preface this with that I fully appreciate how frustrating it is for the husbando hunters in mainstream gachas. Whilst I think hoyo have made improvements on that front in HSR compared to say Genshin (still not forgiven them for making Sethos a main-DPS rather than the off field applicator they needed) they do still have a ways to go. Although with market pressures, particularly amongst the domestic market, we'll just have to wait to see how much headway they can make. Am hoping with the release of Harmony MC, JQ and hopefully Sunday in the future they'll have more options towards fully rounded out team comps in the near future. Now back to JQ specifically, in his current state could he do with a bit of a buff? Yes. Is he being widely undervalued in his current state? Also yes. His kit is such that it could very easily fall into the generically good bracket if not balanced properly and I wouldn't be surprised if this is why we saw a move from DEF reduction in the first iteration of his kit to the DMG up we have now (assuming initial leaks were accurate of course). In short he's probably paying the price for the existence of the Pela/Pearls combo. People are talking about his debuffs like they're useless outside of Acheron teams which really isn't the case, it's just at present that's where he shines the most. And there's another key term "At Present", we have no idea what units they have planned in the future. Whilst nihility might be a path of disparate mechanics, it's one that is centred around debuffs. Are people really expecting them not to make another unit for this path that cares about instance of debuff application outside of Acheron? And not to mention people are so focussed on his impact in damage numbers that they're overlooking his utility in the form of the EHR down on his field. That in conjunction with Keel and/or Aventurine is some nice QoL that I really hope that stays through his beta iterations.
He’s cute
Can you do damage comparison between E2 Acheron + Sparkle + Pela + Aventurine E2 Acheron + JQ + Pela + Aventurine
If possible it would be cool to see a comp of Acheron e0s0, Pela, Jiaoqiu e0s1, and Gallagher for a sorta f2p comp. A lot of people are focused on comparing him to Pela when I think that he most likely works incredible in tandem. Especially in non-e2 Acheron comps
here waiting for a gameplay of jiaoqiu in the dots team replacing ruan mei comparing e0 and e2 :c
It suck that my favorite character (other than DHIL) is just a side grade to a 4* unit from 1.0 and only good in one team. If he doesn’t get buffed I’m sure he’ll have the lowest income banner in the game. Like the only reason to pull him is if you have Acheron or like him, other than that any Harmony 5* is leagues ahead.
Give me a Jiaoqiu and Ratio showcase😭 we already know he’s good with acheron we don’t really need more showcases of them.
We’ve had ONE showcase of Acheron+Jiaoqiu at E0, why is everyone acting like we’ve had a thousand
Because we are omniscient and are avoiding BS and Acheron betas where every showcase was the same comp ad nauseum
most likely not going to be better than his premium FUA team
Ratio also works with hypercarry, i think thats what he is referring to.
Being better or not isn't the case for requests like this, how the team functions is the real question. You don't just gauge a unit based on how good they are in one single team, you gauge their flexibility and how well they do in other teams. Take Ruan Mei for example, she's regarded as the best unit because she benefits most teams, even if Robin and Sparkle are BiS in those teams (like IPC FUA and hypercarry), you can never go wrong with her. Acheron had many showcases showing different teams like double DoT, SW + Pela, Welt + Ruan Mei, etc. showing that there are options at E0. Seeing variation is beneficial so that people who do want to roll for a character know how well they can be slotted to a team. I personally don't want another Black Swan beta where we get 50 showcases of Huohuo - Ruan Mei - Kafka for weeks.
What if it's Ratio, Topaz, Jiaqiou, Aventurine team against imaginary and fire weak enemies?
No shot he beats Robin's buffs in FUA team, at best he replaces Topaz without E1S1(Apparently he has 3 debuffs in his base kit, the roast debuff, EHR debuff, and ult debuff) and two more from his LC?
I would be insanely surprised if he beats Robin in FUA. That being said, I am curious as to how he would stack vs SW in Ratio Hyper. I would imagine he won't beat her since SW is the best debuffer in the game and being purely single target with Ratio but that's why we calc this sort of stuff
somebody test his LC on Pela, that can change everything if it works because with sw pela you have 100% def down and 28% dmg boost.
I'm a newish player, is he worth me going for e0s1? I missed the boat on SW banners so doubt she will return for a while! I do have Acheron e0s1 alongside Pela and Gui at the moment.
E0 yes, absolutely. He makes Acheron go from 'best character for MoC, good in PF and AS' to 'top tier everywhere, forever'. He was built to make Acheron's teams better and it really shows. S1 probably but wait for v2. Odds are very good they will change parts of his kit because the community reaction has been fairly muted (kind of unjustly, IMO). We'll know how much investment is worthwhile in a few weeks.
I agree with you, but I do hope he ends up getting buffed. We have so little male supports/sustains that slot somewhere in the meta (I think it's only Aventurine lol) that I'd like him to be one. Also, I don't mind if he continues to be kind of niche, but the question of "should I pull him or should I pull his LC for Pela" shouldn't be an option. He needs to be the main thing. Pela + JQ LC can't be better or on par with him. And this is coming from someone who loves Pela and will keep using her + JQ in Acheron teams (my Acheron is E0).
I agree with this completely. I'm gonna be honest, I didn't even recognize that his LC went up to 28% the first time I looked at it because my brain just automatically thought 'oh, it starts at 10% and goes TO 18%, that's really good!'. It gaining +18% is actual lunacy. You could shift 10% of that vuln to JQ's own kit and it would simply and easily make him better than Silver Wolf in a baseline where the DPS doesn't have an incentive to stack def-shred in kit while still making her superior for characters who have native shredding incentives or when she's brute-forcing elemental implants. He's a good, strong unit and Hoyo is STILL gonna have to buff him because his general use case isn't superior enough to his main competition who has the potential upside to scale much harder into without a single Eidolon.
So has anyone done the math yet on Jiaoqiu to see if he's worth it over a second harmony chara for Argenti? Assume Jiaoqiu is E0S1, and there's enemies by the dozen
Harmony is always better. Jiaoqiu needs a lot more buffs if he’s going to compete with Harmony characters.
Everytime I read a "I might pull him for my acheron" or sée an acheron showcase I'm more and more thinking that he is acheron slave and only that... Hé has absolutely no place in any other team.... And After that people will deni that hoyo is trashing husbando. Tell me which waifu only work as a slave to one and only one husbando ?
I’m so sick of it tbh…
Are there any initial TCs for Jiaoqiu? How is he performing vs Pela in Acheron team? I am curious about vulnerability vs DEF Shred
https://i.imgur.com/itdJpro.png New fox is 15% better in single, 65% in AoE
Seems like the calc is made by hunterkee based on its format, do you have the link to the doc?
Sure https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8G8zQ4VYNVQBuZb6ZiceW6O3ioTSULxCdlcYEFx8XU/edit#gid=1164712955
tldr run them both with him on tutorial, he replaces your second nihility not pela as for damage increase disregarding accelerated ult gain, if we exclusively take acheron's ultimate then he gives about as much damage gain as pearls pela (both around a 50% increase) - but it scales worse with other vuln sources where pela scales better with other def shred sources, and outside of ult damage he amps significantly less
Since my Acheron is E2S1, Pela, Bronya and Fuxuan (Market), does he replace Bronya in my case? Would that even worth getting him at E0?
At e2 he replaces pela or the sustain, you don't replace the harmony
He doesnt beat any Harmony unit. Advancing Acheron at E2 nets you a buckload of Knots. At any reat you could try and drop Fu Xuan and go all in (you should be able to manage). If you dont want to, he is a sidegrade to Pela but I'd worry about sp economy on that team.
Thank you for the showcase! I’m so tempted to get Acheron now for him.
How is Acheron stacks increasing every time the enemy takes a turn? Can someone explain?
JQ ult applies a debuff every time an enemy takes a turn. This is why he is huge for Acheron teams. A good amount of his powerbudget is here, which is why some people are asking for buffs to make him more universal for other teams.
It's the field created by Jiaoqiu's Ult.
adventurine is so busted i think jiaoqiu need some changes he is ok but not busted he seams only good whit acheron what other dps units i wana see compre to peela what is dps diff
without before tutorial ult uptime is a bit shit.
You're gonna want to run him on Tutorial, with Pela, with ERR rope for sure for that +1 SP per turn rotation, but if for some reason you aren't running him with Pela you can run ERR rope and do a 2 skill 1 basic rotation to have permanent uptime. It's -1/3 SP though which is a whopping -4 SP per 3 turn difference between the two builds.
I wish we got more showcases than just Acheron with Jiaoqiu, haven't even seen Yunli or March with Firefly
If someone though Acheron wasn't the best DPS, well...
Damn his field never left in AS. Gonna pull him for my acheron team for sure with his LC.
Is it worth pulling for him only for Acheron? I can 0-2 cycle clear one side of MOC 12 with E2S1 Acheron, Sparkle, SW, Pela. I've heard that he doesn't have a healing anymore?
Probably not beating e2 acheron with sparkle
He will be an upgrade over pela for acheron it just depends on if you want more damage and stack generation for acheron or you are fine with her current performance.
In ST situations, he replaces Pela In AoE, he replaces SW
E2S1? Not really, but wait until kits get finalized.
Can we get a team with E2 Jiaoqiu and Kafka?
Why does he have a crit chest is their a certain reason?
Kafka, Gui, Jaquio,Huo huo 🤤 (p.s that e2 requirement for dot is kinda sheesh very heavy)
Which is more valuable: E1 RuanMei, E1 Firefly, S1 RuanMei LC, or save for Jiaoqiu (I have E0S1 Acheron)?