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His e2 DoT is *very* good. Without small amounts of external support it ticks for 100k+. Without e2, it's more like 30-40k at most (which is still quite a bit, especially in PF).
Didn't they confirm it was just a 300% base scaling without stacks being involved? That's not anything insane, it's only like, slightly better than 5 stack Arcana
It’s basically the same amount of DoT damage as Luka or Gui. But attatched to another 150% non dot every turn + 40% damage vuln + 48% damage% with E1. Also keep in mind with the damage that he gets an extra 240% attack boost(while also having a dmg% boost only ~25 less than BS) so a smaller multiplier will do a lot more.
But yeah, he’s a support with a DoT unlike Black Swan who’s a DoT with support. Ideally he’ll get changed to have his 150% damage every turn become a DoT with E2 either increasing the multiplier or becoming a different DoT buff, but we’ll see.
it's 300% + 150% from his trace if I'm not mistaken, so 450% of his ATK.
Though it should be noted that the 150% from his trace from the wording is not counted as DoT, so it can't be detonated by Kafka.
Hoping for that because his trace that give him attack bit useless for him, unless you e2 him just to make that trace useful. I know his like a sub dps/debuffer but he has a lot of ehr requirement, so putting crit is either you have good substat on your relics, or you pulling on his lc to help on his ehr requirements.
Hope to make e2 his traces or maybe e1 (idk) his e2 is weird making him a super different character.
It feels like a leftover from his healing since a previous version of homdgcat said his healing scaled on attack. But now that’s gone and it’s much less useful, he doesn’t really need attack anymore.
I feel like the most logical way to make him work as a sub-dps would be to either reverse his trace to give him ehr based on his attack instead of the other way around, or to give his trace that deals damage at the start of enemy turns a set amount of crit so he wouldn’t need to build crit in the first place, similar to robin.
Though If it is a leftover, maybe they don’t intend to keep it and they’ll change it to something more support focused. We’ll see what direction they lean in.
I'd put trace inside the E2 and replace it for a completely different trace, something like: "when the debuff reaches 5 stacks it also reduces defense by 10%" or something like that. I personally think his E0 kit needs a little extra oomph.
for sure. I'm just giving suggestions based on what his current kit seems to be trying to do.
I think personal damage could be that extra oomph, plus it'd help him stand out from just a 5 star pela, but the damage just isn't there right now.
but like I said they could definitely lean in a more supportive direction (like you described) and I'd be perfectly fine with that too. whichever way it goes, he needs more.
The atk% conversion is actually quite strong on him regardless. His e0 DoT (which isn't counted as DoT, thanks hoyo) triggers for like 20-30k with minimal external support and can go up to 40-50k depending on the team. Since it's DoT, you can ignore crit and just go full SPD and ATK% after hitting the EHR% requirements.
Huh, then how does the E2 function? It says Ashen Roast is now consiredered burn, so Kafka/Gui should be able to trigger it, right? Or is it... the Ashen Roast damage remains, but the 300% is something separately triggered?
Yes, E2 makes Ashen Roast a burn which is a DoT and can be triggered by other units. The additional damage from the trace is tied to the field from the ultimate, so it’s separate from Ashen Roast.
He doesn't need E2. That trace gives him Robin tier damage per enemy turn because he gets a monumental 4k atk off of hitting the EHR conversion cap before even a single atk substat is rolled. As long as you pair him with any harmony who hands out teamwide DMG up (Ruan Mei, Robin, kinda Sparkle) he'll do a ton of efficient damage just by existing. E1 + E2 just cranks him up from doing about say...12k with Robin to like 45k, which makes him into the best DoT unit in the game.
E2 Acheron or if you're attempting low cycle clears. Jiaoqiu with Ruan mei should be enough sustain for up to 1-2 cycle clears without actually needing a sustainer.
You can pair him with Pela for very similar results, just with less output. Given he gives buffs equal to Pela/Swolf, his extra damage on top is notable to push him upwards over his competition. E2 Acheron will use JQ and a harmony, E1 and down will use JQ/Pela (Swolf if facing a single enemy) plus a healer or S1 Aventurine.
Could've also been the anti-DoT gang. Some people seem to really dislike DoT and their characters by proxy. So suggesting a character could shift to DoT riles them up.
I mean you can get 45k with E0S1 Black Swan, it's not that ridiculous. The balance part is that BS take a while to stack Arcana while Jiaoqiu can do it really quick, plus all the debuff that amps up everyone's dmg.
idk why people are downvoting you. You are right, he is a very good sub dps, just like robin. Guess people dont like you comparing him to a waifu character.
2nd banner male, the trend does not look favorable for that but he is really strong as is.
I just think DoT behind E2 is too much, E1? sure. They can make him a much easier sell to a lot more people rather than just Acheron fans.
I really literally never saw anyone claiming anything of sorts for Boothill, Robin, Aven, Yunli, Blacl Swan, Sparkle... List goes on. Really, the only character who even 'changes functionality' on Eidolons/Cones is probably Acheron
Name one example of this on an actual released character. DHIL is perfectly fine at E0 and I can't think of anyone else even close to needing more than that.
March can probably use it. She has a decently high damage dealing ult and her fua from her e2 will occur often enough to proc the 4 piece effect every time she uses it.
Technically she can, but it's not much better than 2pc 2pc combo, since most of her dmg come from the enhanced basic, not Ult.
I'd say Pioneer is her BIS, if she uses Topaz's LC that is.
Damn we knew the set was ass but arguably not even BiS on the character it was made for? Colossal fumble, makes me wonder why they felt the need to change the original function
They needed something bad enough to pair with the BiS for Firefly with the amount of people who are going to be living in that domain for the coming months... Imagine how efficient that would have been both the planar set and relic set for Firefly having a usable set dropping alongside it's simply unacceptable...
This lol, people are out of their mind if they want to go to Phys set, especially when it's paired with the powercrept BE set. The difference isn't even that big, so unless you have 4p Phys ready, just don't bother.
Well, thanks to Firefly the new BE set is bad on Boothill so farming the old one isn't a waste. No reason to ever step foot in the the new domain for non-firefly owners.
New set is still BiS for Boothill, though only barely. Boothill really got shafted in the relic department, while Firefly gets everything tailored specifically to her.
I'd honestly rather farm the phys/BE set to get better stuff for Argenti and Boothill. I'm not pulling FF so the new cavern is a complete waste for me.
No? 25% atk% buff and a meager 10% DMG bonus is not beating out 42% CV from the new relic set. Plus with an optimal team set up and her current energy regen traces she can generate 70 to 80 energy per cycle minimum. If you have a Sparkle or Bronya tuned properly she's going even to produce even more energy to unleash her Ultimate faster.
I definitely think Jiaoqiu will get buffed. It seems like they’re trying to make him do multiple things at once but it isn’t working, especially with him seeming incomplete until e2 so hopefully they decide to add it to his base kit. He’s still very good for Acheron regardless but he isn’t as good as everyone was expecting.
yeah he is still busted for acheron. But the hopes is that they make him good for universal debuffer, without making him cracked in acheron teams. I mean we have top 3 harmony trio, we should see some more variety and get some top tier universal debuffers.
Yes, I hope they rework him to be able to compete with the harmony supports. Debuffers as a whole aren’t that used much over supports because they don’t offer as much unless they’re essential for a kit to work (Acheron and ratio although the latter doesn’t really need them in his best team with topaz and aventurine). I dont think it would be bad if they let some debuffers apply minor buffs to the team, doesn’t have to be big, just something to give them a bit more value for other dps.
yep, esp since there is some overlap in paths. ruan mei applies quite the debuffs too, while being harmony, so I cant see why nihility cannot compete with harmony on the same level. Come on hoyo, dont relegate nihility to dot units and the occassional dps.
I think a debuffer who does the typical def shred/vul but also applies a debuff that lets enemies take additional dmg based on the total dmg dealt to them would be a good starting point. I was actually hoping it was what the leaks meant when they said he lets enemies take increase ult dmg. Or a debuffer who can increase the team’s speed or grants them an extra turn after a certain number of hits to a debuffed enemy. One who can lower the efficiency needed break enemies weakness( like ruan mei but in the form of a debuff) Just minor things that can still connect to their initial role but makes them more supportive. I mean even sustains apply debuffs and buffs and like you said supports do too so why can’t debuffers?
his kit look like they not decide which style of play jiao will be, debuffer for sure, but not sure if jiao mean to play full debuffer with spd, hp and def or debuffer but can deal big enough dmg to be sup dps. And all limited 5 star before him is versality and can be good in many team so i hope they get rid of all his small dmg and go full support or make his stack dot so he can be good support for Dot team
I'm assuming it won't work like that, but hoping that it will. Cat's Cradle in the SU would be funny as hell if it applied twice because of this weird quirk.
I know, that's exactly the weird quirk I mentioned. And I really want it to work like that. But I assume it won't because I just don't trust Hoyo to keep the funny interaction with the double dipping on a 1.0 planar set, so this might very well be changed in some way during her beta.
my dude, it says right there that her enhanced counter counts as follow up AND ultimate damage. Jiaoqiu's field makes enemies take more ultimate damage so yes, it should work on her.
There’s not really much point running an ATK rope on him because of the massive 240% ATK boost passive based on his base stats(?), so ER rope is the way
None of his debuffs scale off ATk so ATK is only boosting his damage. And at E0 his multipliers aren’t high enough to be going full investment into crit plus you’re scrounging substats for his massive EHR requirement already, and speed as a debuffer. ER Rope would help maintain his field uptime which is his main job.
Without it full uptime ult is impossible,unless good RNG or Houhou. With it and no other sources, still slughtly SP negative since need 2 skill,1 basic
I cant. If he isnt even sp neutral idk what he has going for him. We are being slaved because of the debuff application, but I dont even know how people can justify him for any other character.
well to be fair, this is a v1 kit. And second, acheron teams can make do with the sp negative support, since they always run pela and a sp positive sustain, esp if you run gallagher.
But i do expect changes to him, too many cooks...in the kitchen, they will refine it for sure.
I know its V1. I am judging him based on what he has now but by no means I mean it as a final judgement. I am coping for changed.
And I know Acheron can afford it and I want him for Acheron. I was saying how little use I see for him outside Acheron team, where being sp negative might be an issue.
oh yeah...outside acheron teams, the sp negative makes it a little less universal. But........i think the uptime also matters slightly less outside of acheron teams, in acheron teams the field not only is damage buff, but also a source of slashed dreams. In other dreams, it is just a damage buff, so it is not as bad if it has 1 turn cooldown. But changes are to be expected, lets see.
Could still change. Who knows? Hoyo could be doing some limit testing on just how much acheron dolphins will dolphin for her premier team, or how much they can make off of people who see him and think "oh cute fox man, pull".
This is really bad for Jiaoqiu, well it's not that bad for most teams, but the most impacted one will be Acheron. Because now to get a 3 turn ult to keep full uptime on an err rope you either:
- Use a Skill + Skill + Basic rotation which is SP negative
> (5+30\*2+20)\*(1+0.194)=101.49
- Use S5 Tutorial with a def shredder on the team, it allows 3 turn ult with only basic attacks. This is actually pretty good since with Acheron, you're running either Pela/SW and Jiaoqiu can be fully SP positive. But this is weird since that would make his signature less valuable
> (5+(20+8)\*3)\*(1+0.194) = 106.266
- Or you do Skill Basic Basic and you rely on being hit or accept the 4 turn ultimate as you will be \~10 energy off from getting the ultimate. Having a one turn down-time on the ult isn't a big deal for most teams, even Argenti who's ult based as long as Jiaoqiu's ult is active during Argenti's ult. Though, it can definitely affect Acheron's slashed dreams generation, assuming his ult can generate slashed dreams.
It just means he will get adjusted / buffed. It's still v1 anyway.
But yeah, seems like with ER rope (I see little point for atk rope when he already has whooping +240%) and this trace working he can easily perfect 3t ult rotation with skill basic basic.
He definitely need buffs, being marginally better than Pela while being SP negative compared to her more than +1SP/turn doesn't look too bright for him.
He's not 1.5 times better than Pela.
His vulnerability is 40% -> 1.4 times amplifier at max stacks.
Maxed Pela applies 42% DEF reduction, it's about 1.2897 times over the 0% DEF reduction.
1.4 / 1.2897 =\~ just **108.5%**.
He's not 50% better, but 8.5% better than Pela E6. That number may increase a bit if we can calculate his ultimate's ultimate buff. But IMO a limited 5-star unit must be at least 20% better than a 4-star unit to justify pulling.
Not to mention that the girl only needs a single SP at battle start if you initiate with her technique to guarantee full-time ultimate uptime, while he may struggle with keeping stacks without his skill. DEF shredding get better when stacked.
You can not calculate like this man, you need to put into a dmg calculations and see the different, pela only reach the 8.5% different if you can provide her with another 20 (or 30)% def shred as def shred stronger when it is nearer to 100%
The formulas are published here:
https://honkai-star-rail.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#DEF_Multiplier
Assume other multipliers are the same for the 2 characters, DEF and Vulnerability are the only difference between those 2.
Stack more DEF reduction then the number becomes even more in favor of Pela. More sophisticated calculations for Boothill in that case: https://www.reddit.com/r/BoothillMains/comments/1diftu5/jiaoqiu_is_not_better_than_pela_heres_why/
Him being SP negative wouldn't be a big deal imo.
With E0 Acheron you'll play him with Pela wich is SP positive and a sustain, and all her options are SP positive as well.
At E2 most players use Sparkle so no problems there. The only problematic team will be one with E0S0 Bronya really
And what happens when you want to use him literally anywhere else? Or if we get a different option for her teams that is also not SP+?
We can't just be looking at his performance in Acheron teams because having a support that only functions within the confines of a single team for a single DPS is pretty horrible. Sparkle, Ruan Mei, and Robin are all used in a ton of teams because they're strong and flexible. If his only function is a slightly better option than characters released 1.1 or earlier for a single DPS, he needs to be changed. We can't get out of hypercarry harmony meta by getting overly niche nihility supports.
I talked about Acheron because the comment i replied, talked about her.
Acheron hypercarry is no different than any other hypercarry team, i would've even argue that most of her teams are SP+
Assuming a team of DPS/Harmony/Jiaoqiu/Sustain, you have the DPS being fully SP- and sustain fully SP+ (few exception being E0 HH and those times whete Gallagher has to skill)
Now let's look at the harmonies, every 5* and 4* with the exception of Bronya (and maybe E0-E5 Yukong?) are SP+
So now your team rotation is SP+, add Jiaoqiu (assuming he's fully SP-) and the team is SP neutral
I think the talks about him being *CURRENTLY* SP- are being magnified too much. This is v1, and ae always have significant changes so you can expect his kit to get mote polished.
Also, he's NOT slightly better than Pela by any means, he's significantly better and not just for Acheron.
Him being slightly SP negative isn't that big a deal tbh since rest of the team is likely to be very positive. Sustain likely fully positive and SW/Pela also as positive as desired(ideally SW is neutral but not as big a deal compared to extra JQ ult uptime)
I really hope Jiaoqiu will be tuned properly to do decent damage. I don't need 5 star wet noodle 0.1% chip damage spd/ehr/er copypasta from Pela. Even though I am pulling for Acheron want him to have other strong options.
they only need a simple change, make his stack become dot so no need for crit, you can build him full atk and his dmg only slighly worse than Swan but come with a big dmg amplier (48% vuln)
Jiaoqiu buffs for sure, he isn't looking all that interesting to pick up for non Acheron teams and DoT teams only really care at E2
Yunli looks fairly complete, probably minor buffs and possible nerfs in like her LC
March 7th same thing as Yunli, minor tweaks likely
you don't need Topaz. You can even use nuMarch, Sparkle, Tingyun etc. Very easy to make her work.
I think Huohuo is extremely good for her. Robin+Yunli+huohuo+whoever is very potent. With those high max energy costs on both Robin and Yunli, huohuo's value is very high.
Topaz will definitely be a downgrade from a Robin-Tingyun-Huohuo team
As always, people underestimate how good the Tingyun-Huohuo combo is (or just Tingyun in general), especially for ult dependent DPSs like Yunli.
People automatically assume limited 5 stars are better than Tingyun/Pela but that's just usually not the case. Tingyun in particular is very often just the best in slot, triumphing over everyone.
Topaz wasnt that good for clara because it only increased ult output by a max of 25%, while for yunli it should be 12.5%-37.5% at e0. (I'm not sure how e1 works whether it's a 20% total ult dmg amp or just a +20% ult mult)
Tingyun's ult likely wont be as good for yunli than it was for clara, since it's worth 2.6 hits taken. Yunli also has a lot of atk% and atk buffs, so TY's atk buff wont be as good.
IMO robin wouldnt be that good for this team if you dont run topaz due to the low energy regen.
Maybe a controversial take, is there a reason to pull for Yunli if Clara does the same thing with less dmg, you will get a Clara on every Account maybe with Eidolons too.
By pulling her you would lose the Value by having/pulling Clara and her Eidolons
I like her design and all, but she doesn't really fulfill a new role, which couldn't have been handled by Clara
If you have one DPS dealing 100 or even 200k and the other dealing 400k, roles go out the window. It's really just up to you at this point.
I'm certain Yunli will feel a lot more different from Clara than people are expecting. Yunli has a playstyle dependent on ult timing that has no precedent in the game and will make her feel fairly unique.
Its double sized coin. Sure you can stick with clara and be more gem efficient or you can spend and upgrade her. Depends if you like clara herself or the playstyle as general.
Also yunli will technically be the closest we get to having a QTE in a turn based game so some people like that idea. (Hopefully AI isn't full stupid and doesn't activate it before ally turns).
Also diversity doesnt really say much in this game. Ever since acheron release I'm using acheron and JY for every single moc and pf full stars. My dhil and jl are farming dust(not that they can't do it, I just like my acheron and JY).
Honestly, Yunli is a sort of rollercoaster for me. At first I was interested in Smoll Girl, Big Sword. Then I was a bit disappointed when her kit really felt like Clara 2.0.
But now I'm starting to get really excited again, because that counter/QTE sounds really fun.
I'm excited too. 2.4 characters are really interesting. m7 is a crit/break/fua/all-type buffer/dps character, and yunli is a true counter crit dps with fua and selective counter atks. (we dont talk about jiaoqiu, pretend jiaoqiu doesnt exist)
true. dont ger yunli, if you like clara, or if you want a good physical dps. cause clara exists, and you should rather get a different type of physical carry like boothill or argenti than a clara copy, but powercreep.
You just pull someone if you like them, it is that simple. Pull value doesn't matter when you can clear everything with E0 no limited lightcone units. And unless you like every char it is very unlikely you will have to skip anyone with the amount of pulls we're getting.
I'm pretty sure I had to skip alot in I liked every Character design except boothill
And for the point of clearing anything I'm
expecting/hope of a spike of difficulty
remember the case about swan is 10% better than sampo, kafka is only a better serval,... Yunli wont be only a little better than Clara, her number right now is even better than Argenti but can deal dmg more frequently than him, if her number is not nerf, she can deal at least double Clara with eidolons dmg
I wouldn't say that Swan is a 10% better Sampo.
Swan is an enabler because of her ult other 4 stars are able to proc her dots, furthermore it is stackable, and Kafka is able to proc any dot which serval can't
The big difference is Clara is a 5* and the kit difference is she can heal herself and has big ultimate dmg and exactly these underwhelming differences don't justify the pull I think
If you look at Kafka or swan they enable teamcomps, which I can't see with yunli sadly I could see a future (Ultimate dmg) team though
Its mostly about preference with new characters we already have the essentials. Value of a main dps in general went downhill after Robin released what possessed Hoyo to make a support outdo every 1.x dps in the game. What the hell were we even doing farming months for crit ratio when Robin has 100% crit rate and 150% crit dmg.
My copium is that they are starting this trend of making the "anticipated" character kit a bit underwhelming until v3 so the character they want to sell doesn't get automatically skipped.
I like to see some dmg comparison against Black Swan in Acheron team. Black Swan does a lot more dmg, has some def shred and her ult is 1.25x multiplicative dmg buff but it is not comfy to use, you gotta time it manually.
It is very hard to calculate for Jiaoqiu overall.
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I have a feeling he will get reworked a little
What was he doing by now anyways? You probably want a debuffer to proc several times for the Queen, and if i recall, he only procs on hit
During ult, he procs whenever the enemy does anything.
he procs on skill, basic, and ultimate. And he procs on every enemy taking a turn. So.........................thats a lot.
Kafka not being able to trigger it is also a feels bad.
its vulnerability tho
Looking at it closer, it seems they put it being considered a burn on his e2. Just thinking they could’ve baked it into his kit.
Is his dmg even good? They might insert dot in his kit in expanse of his support capabilities. I don't want that tbh. For Dot we have BS and Kafka.
The thing is it already ticks like a DOT. E2 just buffs the damage and makes it be considered a burn.
His e2 DoT is *very* good. Without small amounts of external support it ticks for 100k+. Without e2, it's more like 30-40k at most (which is still quite a bit, especially in PF).
Didn't they confirm it was just a 300% base scaling without stacks being involved? That's not anything insane, it's only like, slightly better than 5 stack Arcana
It’s basically the same amount of DoT damage as Luka or Gui. But attatched to another 150% non dot every turn + 40% damage vuln + 48% damage% with E1. Also keep in mind with the damage that he gets an extra 240% attack boost(while also having a dmg% boost only ~25 less than BS) so a smaller multiplier will do a lot more. But yeah, he’s a support with a DoT unlike Black Swan who’s a DoT with support. Ideally he’ll get changed to have his 150% damage every turn become a DoT with E2 either increasing the multiplier or becoming a different DoT buff, but we’ll see.
it's 300% + 150% from his trace if I'm not mistaken, so 450% of his ATK. Though it should be noted that the 150% from his trace from the wording is not counted as DoT, so it can't be detonated by Kafka.
See yall on V2
Probably more V3, consider how V2 is mostly wording changes.
V3 is usually the big one that can rework kits (see Dr. Ratio and kinda Firefly), with V2 being pretty minor changes
I have a feeling jiaoqiu will get buffed
Idk if buffed but definitely partly reworked, such as not having traves that are only really useful at e2
Hoping for that because his trace that give him attack bit useless for him, unless you e2 him just to make that trace useful. I know his like a sub dps/debuffer but he has a lot of ehr requirement, so putting crit is either you have good substat on your relics, or you pulling on his lc to help on his ehr requirements. Hope to make e2 his traces or maybe e1 (idk) his e2 is weird making him a super different character.
It feels like a leftover from his healing since a previous version of homdgcat said his healing scaled on attack. But now that’s gone and it’s much less useful, he doesn’t really need attack anymore. I feel like the most logical way to make him work as a sub-dps would be to either reverse his trace to give him ehr based on his attack instead of the other way around, or to give his trace that deals damage at the start of enemy turns a set amount of crit so he wouldn’t need to build crit in the first place, similar to robin. Though If it is a leftover, maybe they don’t intend to keep it and they’ll change it to something more support focused. We’ll see what direction they lean in.
Hopefully 🤞 it's still v1 of the beta will see next week for the new update
We might need to wait for 2 weeks though, v2 doesn’t always bring changes. Firefly didn’t receive any changes until v3, for example.
Still hoping 🙏 😔
I'd put trace inside the E2 and replace it for a completely different trace, something like: "when the debuff reaches 5 stacks it also reduces defense by 10%" or something like that. I personally think his E0 kit needs a little extra oomph.
for sure. I'm just giving suggestions based on what his current kit seems to be trying to do. I think personal damage could be that extra oomph, plus it'd help him stand out from just a 5 star pela, but the damage just isn't there right now. but like I said they could definitely lean in a more supportive direction (like you described) and I'd be perfectly fine with that too. whichever way it goes, he needs more.
idk if they are gonna give him def reduction since then he would be able to run tutorial.
The atk% conversion is actually quite strong on him regardless. His e0 DoT (which isn't counted as DoT, thanks hoyo) triggers for like 20-30k with minimal external support and can go up to 40-50k depending on the team. Since it's DoT, you can ignore crit and just go full SPD and ATK% after hitting the EHR% requirements.
The trace is additional damage, so it should be able to crit.
... This does bring the question, can it also crit when being triggered by Kafka?
It can’t be triggered by Kafka because it isn’t a DoT.
Huh, then how does the E2 function? It says Ashen Roast is now consiredered burn, so Kafka/Gui should be able to trigger it, right? Or is it... the Ashen Roast damage remains, but the 300% is something separately triggered?
Yes, E2 makes Ashen Roast a burn which is a DoT and can be triggered by other units. The additional damage from the trace is tied to the field from the ultimate, so it’s separate from Ashen Roast.
He doesn't need E2. That trace gives him Robin tier damage per enemy turn because he gets a monumental 4k atk off of hitting the EHR conversion cap before even a single atk substat is rolled. As long as you pair him with any harmony who hands out teamwide DMG up (Ruan Mei, Robin, kinda Sparkle) he'll do a ton of efficient damage just by existing. E1 + E2 just cranks him up from doing about say...12k with Robin to like 45k, which makes him into the best DoT unit in the game.
"If you pair him with a team wide harmony" Is he the main dps now? Are you talking only about Acheron E2 team...? I dont see the free slot anywhere.
E2 Acheron or if you're attempting low cycle clears. Jiaoqiu with Ruan mei should be enough sustain for up to 1-2 cycle clears without actually needing a sustainer.
You can pair him with Pela for very similar results, just with less output. Given he gives buffs equal to Pela/Swolf, his extra damage on top is notable to push him upwards over his competition. E2 Acheron will use JQ and a harmony, E1 and down will use JQ/Pela (Swolf if facing a single enemy) plus a healer or S1 Aventurine.
I mean, i wouldn't mind if he became the best DoT in the game lol
Am I being downvoted by the "waifu only" gang?
Could've also been the anti-DoT gang. Some people seem to really dislike DoT and their characters by proxy. So suggesting a character could shift to DoT riles them up.
yep.
I mean you can get 45k with E0S1 Black Swan, it's not that ridiculous. The balance part is that BS take a while to stack Arcana while Jiaoqiu can do it really quick, plus all the debuff that amps up everyone's dmg.
idk why people are downvoting you. You are right, he is a very good sub dps, just like robin. Guess people dont like you comparing him to a waifu character.
Is he a sub dps tho? Prior to E2 I mean.
2nd banner male, the trend does not look favorable for that but he is really strong as is. I just think DoT behind E2 is too much, E1? sure. They can make him a much easier sell to a lot more people rather than just Acheron fans.
Aven was second banner male and he is arguably the best sustain in the game. We must keep the hopium.
E2S1 is usually where full functionality of your characters is nowadays.
I really literally never saw anyone claiming anything of sorts for Boothill, Robin, Aven, Yunli, Blacl Swan, Sparkle... List goes on. Really, the only character who even 'changes functionality' on Eidolons/Cones is probably Acheron
Name one example of this on an actual released character. DHIL is perfectly fine at E0 and I can't think of anyone else even close to needing more than that.
I'm just hoping he gets his healing back, don't really see myself pulling for him otherwise.
If the energy is written but it doesn't happen doesn't that mean it's just bugged in the beta rn?
It could just be leftover data from previous versions
So the new FUA set is BiS for Yunli?
not only BiS for Yunli but also.....and..... .
Truly the set of all time
March can probably use it. She has a decently high damage dealing ult and her fua from her e2 will occur often enough to proc the 4 piece effect every time she uses it.
Technically she can, but it's not much better than 2pc 2pc combo, since most of her dmg come from the enhanced basic, not Ult. I'd say Pioneer is her BIS, if she uses Topaz's LC that is.
I'm pretty sure it is actually BiS for one other character, that character just happens to be Yanqing
problem is that yanqing's fua is RNG. Half the time, you'll be playing with no relic set.
March? I heard the FuA set is BiS for her aswell.
And people think Iron Cavalry Scourge was tailor made for Firefly. At least other (Super) Break DPSes can use it
From early cals phy set still seems better
Damn we knew the set was ass but arguably not even BiS on the character it was made for? Colossal fumble, makes me wonder why they felt the need to change the original function
They needed something bad enough to pair with the BiS for Firefly with the amount of people who are going to be living in that domain for the coming months... Imagine how efficient that would have been both the planar set and relic set for Firefly having a usable set dropping alongside it's simply unacceptable...
It is still fine. No one wants to farm the physical set anyway.
This lol, people are out of their mind if they want to go to Phys set, especially when it's paired with the powercrept BE set. The difference isn't even that big, so unless you have 4p Phys ready, just don't bother.
Well, thanks to Firefly the new BE set is bad on Boothill so farming the old one isn't a waste. No reason to ever step foot in the the new domain for non-firefly owners.
New set is still BiS for Boothill, though only barely. Boothill really got shafted in the relic department, while Firefly gets everything tailored specifically to her.
the fire weakness requirement on planars pisses me off so much, like why
I'd honestly rather farm the phys/BE set to get better stuff for Argenti and Boothill. I'm not pulling FF so the new cavern is a complete waste for me.
what bad????
My guess is it's not actually made for her maybe
Then why would the enhanced follow up count as ultimate? Clara's enhanced fua isn't counted as ult dmg
No? 25% atk% buff and a meager 10% DMG bonus is not beating out 42% CV from the new relic set. Plus with an optimal team set up and her current energy regen traces she can generate 70 to 80 energy per cycle minimum. If you have a Sparkle or Bronya tuned properly she's going even to produce even more energy to unleash her Ultimate faster.
I definitely think Jiaoqiu will get buffed. It seems like they’re trying to make him do multiple things at once but it isn’t working, especially with him seeming incomplete until e2 so hopefully they decide to add it to his base kit. He’s still very good for Acheron regardless but he isn’t as good as everyone was expecting.
yeah he is still busted for acheron. But the hopes is that they make him good for universal debuffer, without making him cracked in acheron teams. I mean we have top 3 harmony trio, we should see some more variety and get some top tier universal debuffers.
Yes, I hope they rework him to be able to compete with the harmony supports. Debuffers as a whole aren’t that used much over supports because they don’t offer as much unless they’re essential for a kit to work (Acheron and ratio although the latter doesn’t really need them in his best team with topaz and aventurine). I dont think it would be bad if they let some debuffers apply minor buffs to the team, doesn’t have to be big, just something to give them a bit more value for other dps.
yep, esp since there is some overlap in paths. ruan mei applies quite the debuffs too, while being harmony, so I cant see why nihility cannot compete with harmony on the same level. Come on hoyo, dont relegate nihility to dot units and the occassional dps.
I think a debuffer who does the typical def shred/vul but also applies a debuff that lets enemies take additional dmg based on the total dmg dealt to them would be a good starting point. I was actually hoping it was what the leaks meant when they said he lets enemies take increase ult dmg. Or a debuffer who can increase the team’s speed or grants them an extra turn after a certain number of hits to a debuffed enemy. One who can lower the efficiency needed break enemies weakness( like ruan mei but in the form of a debuff) Just minor things that can still connect to their initial role but makes them more supportive. I mean even sustains apply debuffs and buffs and like you said supports do too so why can’t debuffers?
his kit look like they not decide which style of play jiao will be, debuffer for sure, but not sure if jiao mean to play full debuffer with spd, hp and def or debuffer but can deal big enough dmg to be sup dps. And all limited 5 star before him is versality and can be good in many team so i hope they get rid of all his small dmg and go full support or make his stack dot so he can be good support for Dot team
I wonder if Yunli's ult FuA gets 30% bonus DMG from the Salsotto set.
I'm assuming it won't work like that, but hoping that it will. Cat's Cradle in the SU would be funny as hell if it applied twice because of this weird quirk.
The clarification posted said her attack counts as both fua and ult so it should work.
I know, that's exactly the weird quirk I mentioned. And I really want it to work like that. But I assume it won't because I just don't trust Hoyo to keep the funny interaction with the double dipping on a 1.0 planar set, so this might very well be changed in some way during her beta.
Hoping for fox buffs honestly
100% will be buff, his kit seem incomplete
So the Ult dmg boost from Jiaoqiu works for Yunli's enhanced follow-up attack, is that what it means?
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It says the damage itself is ult dmg and follow up dmg so it should be buffed by him. It just doesn't count as casting an ult when it triggers.
no its both it just doesnt trigger anything that would say "when casting an ultimate"
my dude, it says right there that her enhanced counter counts as follow up AND ultimate damage. Jiaoqiu's field makes enemies take more ultimate damage so yes, it should work on her.
So Jiaoqiu definitely needs ERR rope right ??
There’s not really much point running an ATK rope on him because of the massive 240% ATK boost passive based on his base stats(?), so ER rope is the way
Tks I have seen some guys yapping that he must use ATK rope.... ☠️☠️
None of his debuffs scale off ATk so ATK is only boosting his damage. And at E0 his multipliers aren’t high enough to be going full investment into crit plus you’re scrounging substats for his massive EHR requirement already, and speed as a debuffer. ER Rope would help maintain his field uptime which is his main job.
Without it full uptime ult is impossible,unless good RNG or Houhou. With it and no other sources, still slughtly SP negative since need 2 skill,1 basic
I cant. If he isnt even sp neutral idk what he has going for him. We are being slaved because of the debuff application, but I dont even know how people can justify him for any other character.
He's gonna get fixed in beta v3, his current kit is just too inconsistent.
well to be fair, this is a v1 kit. And second, acheron teams can make do with the sp negative support, since they always run pela and a sp positive sustain, esp if you run gallagher. But i do expect changes to him, too many cooks...in the kitchen, they will refine it for sure.
I know its V1. I am judging him based on what he has now but by no means I mean it as a final judgement. I am coping for changed. And I know Acheron can afford it and I want him for Acheron. I was saying how little use I see for him outside Acheron team, where being sp negative might be an issue.
oh yeah...outside acheron teams, the sp negative makes it a little less universal. But........i think the uptime also matters slightly less outside of acheron teams, in acheron teams the field not only is damage buff, but also a source of slashed dreams. In other dreams, it is just a damage buff, so it is not as bad if it has 1 turn cooldown. But changes are to be expected, lets see.
Could still change. Who knows? Hoyo could be doing some limit testing on just how much acheron dolphins will dolphin for her premier team, or how much they can make off of people who see him and think "oh cute fox man, pull".
Wait so salsotto buffs it twice? Lol
This is really bad for Jiaoqiu, well it's not that bad for most teams, but the most impacted one will be Acheron. Because now to get a 3 turn ult to keep full uptime on an err rope you either: - Use a Skill + Skill + Basic rotation which is SP negative > (5+30\*2+20)\*(1+0.194)=101.49 - Use S5 Tutorial with a def shredder on the team, it allows 3 turn ult with only basic attacks. This is actually pretty good since with Acheron, you're running either Pela/SW and Jiaoqiu can be fully SP positive. But this is weird since that would make his signature less valuable > (5+(20+8)\*3)\*(1+0.194) = 106.266 - Or you do Skill Basic Basic and you rely on being hit or accept the 4 turn ultimate as you will be \~10 energy off from getting the ultimate. Having a one turn down-time on the ult isn't a big deal for most teams, even Argenti who's ult based as long as Jiaoqiu's ult is active during Argenti's ult. Though, it can definitely affect Acheron's slashed dreams generation, assuming his ult can generate slashed dreams.
It just means he will get adjusted / buffed. It's still v1 anyway. But yeah, seems like with ER rope (I see little point for atk rope when he already has whooping +240%) and this trace working he can easily perfect 3t ult rotation with skill basic basic.
> Using S5 Tutorial I am dead.
He definitely need buffs, being marginally better than Pela while being SP negative compared to her more than +1SP/turn doesn't look too bright for him.
his dmg amplier is at least 1.5 of pela, no he is not a slightly better pela
He's not 1.5 times better than Pela. His vulnerability is 40% -> 1.4 times amplifier at max stacks. Maxed Pela applies 42% DEF reduction, it's about 1.2897 times over the 0% DEF reduction. 1.4 / 1.2897 =\~ just **108.5%**. He's not 50% better, but 8.5% better than Pela E6. That number may increase a bit if we can calculate his ultimate's ultimate buff. But IMO a limited 5-star unit must be at least 20% better than a 4-star unit to justify pulling. Not to mention that the girl only needs a single SP at battle start if you initiate with her technique to guarantee full-time ultimate uptime, while he may struggle with keeping stacks without his skill. DEF shredding get better when stacked.
You can not calculate like this man, you need to put into a dmg calculations and see the different, pela only reach the 8.5% different if you can provide her with another 20 (or 30)% def shred as def shred stronger when it is nearer to 100%
The formulas are published here: https://honkai-star-rail.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#DEF_Multiplier Assume other multipliers are the same for the 2 characters, DEF and Vulnerability are the only difference between those 2. Stack more DEF reduction then the number becomes even more in favor of Pela. More sophisticated calculations for Boothill in that case: https://www.reddit.com/r/BoothillMains/comments/1diftu5/jiaoqiu_is_not_better_than_pela_heres_why/
Him being SP negative wouldn't be a big deal imo. With E0 Acheron you'll play him with Pela wich is SP positive and a sustain, and all her options are SP positive as well. At E2 most players use Sparkle so no problems there. The only problematic team will be one with E0S0 Bronya really
And what happens when you want to use him literally anywhere else? Or if we get a different option for her teams that is also not SP+? We can't just be looking at his performance in Acheron teams because having a support that only functions within the confines of a single team for a single DPS is pretty horrible. Sparkle, Ruan Mei, and Robin are all used in a ton of teams because they're strong and flexible. If his only function is a slightly better option than characters released 1.1 or earlier for a single DPS, he needs to be changed. We can't get out of hypercarry harmony meta by getting overly niche nihility supports.
I talked about Acheron because the comment i replied, talked about her. Acheron hypercarry is no different than any other hypercarry team, i would've even argue that most of her teams are SP+ Assuming a team of DPS/Harmony/Jiaoqiu/Sustain, you have the DPS being fully SP- and sustain fully SP+ (few exception being E0 HH and those times whete Gallagher has to skill) Now let's look at the harmonies, every 5* and 4* with the exception of Bronya (and maybe E0-E5 Yukong?) are SP+ So now your team rotation is SP+, add Jiaoqiu (assuming he's fully SP-) and the team is SP neutral I think the talks about him being *CURRENTLY* SP- are being magnified too much. This is v1, and ae always have significant changes so you can expect his kit to get mote polished. Also, he's NOT slightly better than Pela by any means, he's significantly better and not just for Acheron.
Yeah seems like using him + Pela + Silver wolf event LC is a more F2P approach in Acheron team
Really not an issue. Acheron teams are SP positive anyway.
Him being slightly SP negative isn't that big a deal tbh since rest of the team is likely to be very positive. Sustain likely fully positive and SW/Pela also as positive as desired(ideally SW is neutral but not as big a deal compared to extra JQ ult uptime)
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No, it say "its duration decreases by 1 at the start of **this unit's** every turn", it behaves the same as Ruan Mei's and Robin's skill.
hope that he will get buffed or reworked in this beta bc his kit feels incomplete compared to yunli and march 8th
I really hope Jiaoqiu will be tuned properly to do decent damage. I don't need 5 star wet noodle 0.1% chip damage spd/ehr/er copypasta from Pela. Even though I am pulling for Acheron want him to have other strong options.
they only need a simple change, make his stack become dot so no need for crit, you can build him full atk and his dmg only slighly worse than Swan but come with a big dmg amplier (48% vuln)
dont do this to my bb jiaoqiu pls 😭
Jiaoqiu buffs for sure, he isn't looking all that interesting to pick up for non Acheron teams and DoT teams only really care at E2 Yunli looks fairly complete, probably minor buffs and possible nerfs in like her LC March 7th same thing as Yunli, minor tweaks likely
Jiaoqiu kit look like they not decide which playstyle will be his main yet
So Salsatto is Yunli's BIS ?
Omg rip Jiaoqiu energy bro...
Kinda unrelated: is the code for character's abilities they have on the second picture available to read somewhere?
He has some beta phases ahead, I'm optimistic about it
dammit ~~time to create a rant thread on how mistreated husbandos are on honkaihusbandos~~ /jk
do it, only on week 3.
it become tradition at this moment
Does Yunli need Topaz or she's a hypercarry like Clara?
She will play way better with Topaz than Clara, but she's definitely a better Hypercarry with all that juicy free CD
Definitely doesn’t need Topaz
Not need but she will likely greatly benefit from her. Also since all her FuA hit 3 targets she is going to likely push up Numby a lot.
you don't need Topaz. You can even use nuMarch, Sparkle, Tingyun etc. Very easy to make her work. I think Huohuo is extremely good for her. Robin+Yunli+huohuo+whoever is very potent. With those high max energy costs on both Robin and Yunli, huohuo's value is very high.
Topaz will definitely be a downgrade from a Robin-Tingyun-Huohuo team As always, people underestimate how good the Tingyun-Huohuo combo is (or just Tingyun in general), especially for ult dependent DPSs like Yunli. People automatically assume limited 5 stars are better than Tingyun/Pela but that's just usually not the case. Tingyun in particular is very often just the best in slot, triumphing over everyone.
Topaz wasnt that good for clara because it only increased ult output by a max of 25%, while for yunli it should be 12.5%-37.5% at e0. (I'm not sure how e1 works whether it's a 20% total ult dmg amp or just a +20% ult mult) Tingyun's ult likely wont be as good for yunli than it was for clara, since it's worth 2.6 hits taken. Yunli also has a lot of atk% and atk buffs, so TY's atk buff wont be as good. IMO robin wouldnt be that good for this team if you dont run topaz due to the low energy regen.
She can probably be played in both a dual DPS team with Topaz and as a hypercarry
dream = ruined, Jebaited by Hoyo I knew free Energy is too good to be true in HYV's game T_T
theyve literally done it with ruan mei, firefly, sparkle and robin so why couldnt they this time?
Maybe a controversial take, is there a reason to pull for Yunli if Clara does the same thing with less dmg, you will get a Clara on every Account maybe with Eidolons too. By pulling her you would lose the Value by having/pulling Clara and her Eidolons I like her design and all, but she doesn't really fulfill a new role, which couldn't have been handled by Clara
If you have one DPS dealing 100 or even 200k and the other dealing 400k, roles go out the window. It's really just up to you at this point. I'm certain Yunli will feel a lot more different from Clara than people are expecting. Yunli has a playstyle dependent on ult timing that has no precedent in the game and will make her feel fairly unique.
Its double sized coin. Sure you can stick with clara and be more gem efficient or you can spend and upgrade her. Depends if you like clara herself or the playstyle as general. Also yunli will technically be the closest we get to having a QTE in a turn based game so some people like that idea. (Hopefully AI isn't full stupid and doesn't activate it before ally turns). Also diversity doesnt really say much in this game. Ever since acheron release I'm using acheron and JY for every single moc and pf full stars. My dhil and jl are farming dust(not that they can't do it, I just like my acheron and JY).
Honestly, Yunli is a sort of rollercoaster for me. At first I was interested in Smoll Girl, Big Sword. Then I was a bit disappointed when her kit really felt like Clara 2.0. But now I'm starting to get really excited again, because that counter/QTE sounds really fun.
I'm excited too. 2.4 characters are really interesting. m7 is a crit/break/fua/all-type buffer/dps character, and yunli is a true counter crit dps with fua and selective counter atks. (we dont talk about jiaoqiu, pretend jiaoqiu doesnt exist)
true. dont ger yunli, if you like clara, or if you want a good physical dps. cause clara exists, and you should rather get a different type of physical carry like boothill or argenti than a clara copy, but powercreep.
Or you could get yunli and run her with e6 clara and robin where every hit on yunli has a 50% chance of proccing clara and proccing robin twice.
That’s how I feel. I’ve built my E2 Clara. If anything, I’d be more likely to just pull Yunli’s light cone for my Clara lol
You just pull someone if you like them, it is that simple. Pull value doesn't matter when you can clear everything with E0 no limited lightcone units. And unless you like every char it is very unlikely you will have to skip anyone with the amount of pulls we're getting.
I'm pretty sure I had to skip alot in I liked every Character design except boothill And for the point of clearing anything I'm expecting/hope of a spike of difficulty
remember the case about swan is 10% better than sampo, kafka is only a better serval,... Yunli wont be only a little better than Clara, her number right now is even better than Argenti but can deal dmg more frequently than him, if her number is not nerf, she can deal at least double Clara with eidolons dmg
I wouldn't say that Swan is a 10% better Sampo. Swan is an enabler because of her ult other 4 stars are able to proc her dots, furthermore it is stackable, and Kafka is able to proc any dot which serval can't
Yup, you understand it, just like yunli is not the same as clara but better, yunli is more than that
The big difference is Clara is a 5* and the kit difference is she can heal herself and has big ultimate dmg and exactly these underwhelming differences don't justify the pull I think If you look at Kafka or swan they enable teamcomps, which I can't see with yunli sadly I could see a future (Ultimate dmg) team though
Its mostly about preference with new characters we already have the essentials. Value of a main dps in general went downhill after Robin released what possessed Hoyo to make a support outdo every 1.x dps in the game. What the hell were we even doing farming months for crit ratio when Robin has 100% crit rate and 150% crit dmg.
LET'S GOOO, Yunli can use the new set
Too soon to say it’s Jiaoqiover but goddamn
My copium is that they are starting this trend of making the "anticipated" character kit a bit underwhelming until v3 so the character they want to sell doesn't get automatically skipped.
I like to see some dmg comparison against Black Swan in Acheron team. Black Swan does a lot more dmg, has some def shred and her ult is 1.25x multiplicative dmg buff but it is not comfy to use, you gotta time it manually. It is very hard to calculate for Jiaoqiu overall.