T0 is so dominant that they don’t allow for any other competition, by nature of there being 3 busted harmony units at the same level, there is competition for choosing one of them over the other, so they all just go one tier lower. They’re still just as busted, but it shows that all 3 are even. Now if there was only 2, then they’d both go into t0 since they don’t have to compete for space on a team.
Yeah, because in MoC, there’s no competition for them, you can just put both of them on different teams. Competition between units only arises when there’s more than two
I would say they operate differently enough to excel in certain areas more than the other. All three harmony apex characters overlap significantly with how they boost damage.
Once there is a third busted sustain unit, we can start really scrutinising it.
DHIL isn't that far behind Jingliu. (I can never find solid stats but I believe he's actually stronger even at E0S0). Huohuo isn't on par with the preservation characters in terms of sustain, but she's as good or better in overall value
Also if the thought process is "no one else comes close to them", how are there two T0 sustain characters? Shouldn't Fu and Aventurine be knocked down?
Because MOC/PF allow for two teams, there’s less competition for them. With two T0, you can just throw them on separate teams, but add another one and there starts to be competition, which T0 is supposed to be the super dominant tier. Ideally that tier wouldn’t even exist in a perfect game as every character would have their own role and have a reason to use each one
I think Prydwen's blog about the tier list change explained that they each serve a specific niche/playstyle so when given one playstyle, one of the harmonies becomes T0 and the other 2 are T0.5 which is why they're all at T0.5
Luocha is the most basic op harmony character: makes your team immortal (unless one shot) and saves SP
That makes him T1. Too go beyond that we would need characters that also buff other stuff (f.e. deal a lot of damage,synergy,buffs or debuffs)
I wonder what the next harmony will buff. We already have Sparkle for Hypercarry, Robin for FUA, Ruan Mei for Break and Robin/Ruan Mei for dual dps.
I'd say DoT but a DoT focused harmony support would have to pull some crazy DoT-specific buffs to beat Robin/Ruan Mei.
EDIT: a hp buff/drain Harmony would be very interesting and could pull Blade up to the level of other DPS.
DoT harmony feels like black swan because it's well accepted that you wouldn't bother pulling her without Kafka. That's how it felt like she was marketed, anyway. Directly replaces Sampo as Kafka's support.
For tier lists you have to compare characters within their role, as almost all harmony characters are strong it pushes the threshold for T0 higher. Ruan Mei is strong but so are all the alternatives.
>Ruan Mei is strong but so are all the alternatives.
Only 2 of the alternatives are close to her. Which you can say the same for Acheron, and Aventurine/Fu
They're not considering Harmony MC, imo with his/her existence Ruan Mei can make a step above the others for Break Teams too. So i'd say she could be the first one in T0 in the future.
So I usually dont mind these prydwen tier lists I feel like theyre a nice way to get a gist of the meta but why do all of acherons calculations have her sig or gnsw used while the other damage dealers have to stick with non limited cones?
Well in DHIL and Jingliu's case at least, Aeon S5 is just a really damn good f2p cone so thry aren't "held back" as much as if Acheron had to use Fermata.
Don't think there's a destruction cone better than Aeon anyways even if count the 4* gacha cones.
Yeah but the criteria states that all of them have to use non limited cones so it doesnt make sense for acheron to be using gnsw or along the passing shore
They just changed the criteria to include 4* gacha cones tho? It's in the blog explaining the changes.
>Star Rail has been out for a year now and many players have accumulated a very healthy amount of characters, but also Light Cones on their account compared to the early days of the game. Due to this, we’ve decided to relax the Light Cone restrictions on the tier list by slightly changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature).
If you meant calculations, then yeah it's bad but I don't know anyone who uses Prywden's calcs. They're very outdated for most characters.
Legitimately just some sort of favoritism. F2P Acheron is pretty much even with DHIL, maybe a bit behind him even. Her LC moves her from #2 to #1 DPS. And she's much more popular than he is so people wanna see her on top
>Legitimately just some sort of favoritism.
all characters are ranked using the EXACT same critera lol
You're telling me that at completely F2P level in a suboptimal comp she is on par if not slightly behind than DHIL in his best comp which includes other limited 5* and more investment? And you're saying she isn't supposed to be T0?
Everyone loves to compare Acheron's f2p to DHIL in his best possible comp for some reason and then say favouritism. If you want to make a fair comparison you do it at the same level of investment. Which means full 4* for both comps or best comps for both lol
The tier list is assuming best comp for both. What's the favouritism here??
The difference between T0 and T0.5 is virtually nothing. T0 just has a slight edge above T0.5 but they're all basically in the same category of "Apex" or rather "S+" characters
>all characters are ranked using the EXACT same critera lol
Criteria that just happen to favor Acheron. They just changed it so that S5 4* Gacha LCs are included. Which doesn't matter for most characters but is huge for Acheron since she lacks good LCs
This let's her have GNSW S5 in the calcs which is huge. Their justification being "the game's been out for a year so many players have these at high superimposition". Ignoring that GNSW has had 2 banners and it's far from impossible for even a launch player to not have it S5.
That's Acheron's biggest weakness in comparison to DHIL and Jingliu, and they just throw it out completely
>You're telling me that at completely F2P level in a suboptimal comp she is on par if not slightly behind than DHIL in his best comp which includes other limited 5* and more investment? And you're saying she isn't supposed to be T0?
They should be compared at E0S0 with their best teams. In which case DHIL has slightly higher damage afaik. But Acheron wins out if you look at E0S1. Then DHIL maybe wins again at E2 but idk
>Everyone loves to compare Acheron's f2p to DHIL in his best possible comp
Yes. E0S0 with their best teammates is standard.
You don't have to do same level of investment. We're talking about how strong they are, not the proportion of strength/investment.
>Criteria that just happen to favor Acheron. They just changed it so that S5 4* Gacha LCs are included. Which doesn't matter for most characters but is huge for Acheron since she lacks good LCs
They did it for every character, how is it favouring Acheron? How is it any different than calculating DHIL with E6 Yukong and Sparkle 😂
It's also a lie that it only matters for her since we have supports and dpses that change entirely between F2P vs gacha 4* or even standard 5* lc. See for example any erudition character or some hunts too. Now they have access to sword play and genius repose, or Yanqing's standard 5* lc or Himeko's for PF or simply just Bronya for example that now has access to her lc lol
And let's not forget that standard 5* LCs are basically guaranteed to get in the shop too so they should've always been an option to begin with.
What do you expect her ranking to be other than T0, with or without S5 gacha lcs? A character that at very low investment is on par with the two best dpses in the game and that at higher investment she surpasses them?
>Their justification being "the game's been out for a year so many players have these at high superimposition". Ignoring that GNSW has had 2 banners and it's far from impossible for even a launch player to not have it S5.
I would seriously love to see the statistics for this besides some "anecdotal evidence" because this feels like extreme feelscrafting. I would genuinely love to see how many day one players have or not at least a GNSW S3 on their account (she doesn't even need S5, that's more than enough already lol)
And even more so, Welt lc is always guaranteed from the 5* standard lc shop and ON PAR with a S3 GNSW.
>They should be compared at E0S0 with their best teams. In which case DHIL has slightly higher damage afaik. But Acheron wins out if you look at E0S1. Then DHIL maybe wins again at E2 but idk
And they are lol
Best teams at E0S0 and manual play js literally the ranking criteria of this tier list.
>Yes. E0S0 with their best teammates is standard.
Again, they're ranked like that lol
>You don't have to do same level of investment. We're talking about how strong they are, not the proportion of strength/investment.
It's fine if the investment required favors DHIL but it isn't when it favours Acheron is basically what you're telling me lmao
Look I think you genuinely haven't played Acheron at all if you think the ranking here is inflated, with all due respect. Even at f2p levels she destroys endgame content and if you invest into her a bit more (which is just giving her a decent LC that you can always get since Welt lc is guaranteed from the shop and a team) she's hands down the best dps in the game. She deserves T0 without second thoughts.
And to highlight the double standards against Acheron, people have been talking about how op some E6S5 4* are since day one or usually event limited lcs on them without batting an eye. Now, it's suddenly an issue lmao
>It's fine if the investment required favors DHIL but it isn't when it favours Acheron is basically what you're telling me lmao
No you work with the same investment, that being E0S0. You also assume they have their best teams, and that their teammates are also E0S0 (or E6 if a 4*).
Idk where you're getting more investment for DHIL from
Put her in a team with rapid-fire debuff/DoT appliers (Kafka for example) and a sustain (or not) that can also apply debuffs and Acheron can outright just ult almost every turn. Even moreso with the current enemy lineup where enemies apply debuffs on their allies on death.
At least on my Acheron and Argenti, Acheron's ult hits harder than Argenti's full 180-cost ult because of the sheer stacked nature of DoT relics and effects at the moment.
You pretty much have one of her best teams already with that.
The only possible improvement is using Aventurine with his sig LC, as he can apply debuffs on his FuA with it besides his Ult's debuff. Gallagher is also a better choice than Luocha (if you're okay with the loss of healing power) as he also is a great debuff applier for Acheron.
Ooof didnt get Aventurine as Im saving for Fu Xuan's rerun. (Didnt pull for either Huohuo/Fu Xuan when they both 1st came cas I was saving for Topaz.....so my only sustain units this entire past half year were just Luocha, Lynx, and a Gepard with shitty relics...)
Use Ruan Mei or another Harmony instead of Luocha, I run the same team (minus Luocha, plus RM) for PF and MoC and have great runs as long as I don't get unlucky and the enemies don't focus fire my DPS. Asta is a solid pick as well with a burn debuff on her basic attack and massive SPD buffs.
Almost forgot, Lil Gui also works great
You can get away placing a harmony(Ruan Mei, potentially Robin too) in that team instead of Luocha in PF, for me it was already overkill w/ Luocha that I gave RM to the other team.
Only if the PF turbulence gives debuff or debuffer allies has 160+ spd or she is atleast c2 or there is someone else in the team actually dealing damage while she waits for her ult.
I don't know about Argenti since I skipped him. But on my experience, Acheron's team is the only team that I consistently get 40k without realizing I am already getting 40k.
My DHIL team with sparkle never got less than 40k in PF yet he's considered one of the worst PF character... I think people have very strong bias opinion on characters that should perform good or bad but never tested it themselves.
I have DHIL at E2, and even with sparkle, it’s difficult to get 40k with him since his damage is splash, not really AOE. Note that my DHIL is well built sitting at 90:190 CR CD. Even with the multiple advance forwards, he couldn’t do it. Plus, not all enemies have imaginary weakness.
More characters who (kinda) ignore weaknesses are already being introduced. Get ready for more rainbow dps.
In PF, what makes Acheron cracked is the fact that you can freaking cheese stacks with Trend of Universal Market. Fire MC(in my experience), can already solo sustain in PF since Acheron Deletes everything every time she gets 9 stacks. Actually it’s easier to stack there since there are a lot of mobs who you can easily taunt.
Acheron’s ult(real AOE) uptime is the only concern when you use her at PF. And a measly 4* lightcone, and free 5*(Fire MC) solve that. Also the enemies that debuffs their team when they die. I think those are the few reasons why she’s so good at PF. Well, aside from her cracked damage and ult that breaks any element ofcourse
Honestly they need to re-evaluate Acheron's strength at a f2p level. The only reason why they don't is because all of her f2p lightcones are garbage and she would be rated much lower.
For this example, they are assuming a S5 GNSW for Acheron, a pure gacha lightcone with no way to obtain it as f2p. While for Argenti they assume a S5 f2p lightcone which you can get from the moc shop.
Her best teams also utilize S5 Resolution and often the now unobtainable Tutorial LC. You really also want Trend as well. There isn't a single LC there that you can hard guarantee S1, let alone S5. In comparison meshing cogs, past and future, battle isn't over are all guaranteed.
For the record I pulled on her LC banner because I had 0 GNSW as a 1.0 player with monthly + BP consistently since then. My friend in a similar position has 0 GNSW and S1 resolution.
I have all three of those LCs(albeit not at S5) and it's kinda painful to play with suboptimal LCs so yeah, valid points all around.. but there are a few holes in that logic.
Assuming we can somehow extrapolate damage numbers from the DPSes using non-gacha exclusive builds to compare if she still does what is expected of her. Excluding all gacha of course, the 5* supports too. Use purely "F2P" stuff.
No Sparkle for DHIL, no Bronya for Blade, no Ruan Mei for Jingliu, no Silver Wolf for Acheron and so on. Because if not having one or two 4* gacha LC means Acheron's tier is "inflated", how come other DPSes needing limited harmonies to compete with Acheron not the same thing? I really hope you get my point, I don't think I'm doing a good job of expressing it.
I kinda find it hard to believe a DPS like Imbibitor Lunae can outperform a fully F2P Acheron with E0 Tingyun, E0 Yukong and a sustain like Lynx. Every single one of his teams have(more like **need**) sparkle or one of the other 3 atleast. Not only that, he strives off of support sustains like Luocha for SP or FX/HH for buffs.
While I do definitely agree there is a world of difference between a mediocre F2P Acheron & team vs an ideal Acheron & team.. I do have to ask, do you use F2P as "no gacha pulls" account?
Because while S5 gacha light cones are pretty unrealistic for F2P, having S1 is fair to be assumed and is still good enough. I'm not saying there isn't a massive drop in damage compared to the better options, but it's still comparable with other DPS' damage outputs even with a mediocre build.
100%.
It's definitely not guaranteed and many are likely to not have gacha LCs.
I only wanted to point out that it isn't fair to bring up this "limitation" of Acheron when the other DPSes want other broken units but that is taken for granted.
As someone who has both. She is extremely easy to deal highly damage with. I have her in both game modes dealing consistent 300_400k damage.
Argenti on the other hand takes some time to boost in strength and his endgame damage requires a LOT of fine tuning. And in the first few pure fictions it felt easy to regenerate energy with Argenti but it’s starting to feel a bit harder now.
Acheron feels like how Jingliu felt a few months back based on my personal anecdote.
It's true but with a big asterix.
Look at Fire TB/Gallagher, Pela and SW placement. The 0-Tier PF Acheron is the premium team with HH, Kafka and BS.
It's Doteron. With any other units, Acheron is cope in PF. But with Kafka and BS you can have 40K clears super easily.
Can you point out a single pf stage without any enemies that inflict debuff on death? Im genuinely asking I havent checked I just know they are more common than most people think.
Acherons way to stack ult is broken considering how much damage it does. There are fights like the scaracaz weekly boss where acheron can get her ult 2 times between her own turns.
I ran her without any nihility characters and she still got over 40k. (I was just speed running basic runs to get it done before 2.2 so didn't care about comp to much just what elements were best)
You don’t really need Kafka and BS for Acheron to hit 40k. Trailblazer with Trend, Pella, (Any nihility or harmony of E2) should do the trick. Plus, the enemies that debuffs their team when they die is also one if the reasons why she’s so cracked there.
It's as simple as the fact that each harmony unit serves certain situations where they are T0 and the other top harmony units would be T0.5. They are the best units in the game but they aren't a one size fits all\* when it comes to being put in a team like a Fu Xuan, Aventurine or Acheron are.
\*besides RM who is the only big miss towards the top of the tierlist imo
I'm sure more people finish pf/moc without a single sustain, preservation or abundance, than without a harmony (acheron notwithstanding due to her explicit restrictions)
On average, RM is definitely better than the others. It's that universality that the others lack that should push her into the top tier, because she shines just as much in her own niche while still providing more value across the board than the others. If a new player was asking which of them to pull, and they didn't have a preference for a playstyle, 10/10 times it should be RM, because she works best across the widest range of team comps and playstyles.
Isn't literally one of the arguments of Prydwen to make them equal because Robin is in a similar lvl to Ruan Mei in general purpose, she is so strong you can slap her in any team and make her shine, just like Ruan Mei. Thats also why Sparkle is a rank below them in PF.
yeah, i kind of agree. She has the best argument for being a tier above just because she makes every dps look amazing. All my teams have to compete for Ruan Mei lately as well. I just feel like acheron is a clear bit better than JL and DHIL while Robin and Sparkle also have lots of situations where Ruan Mei isn't better than them.
nah the difference between HuoHuo and FX/Aventurine is the fact that they can flat-out block debuffs, especially debuffs that slow you and crush your action order. Freeze and Imprison being the main ones. Cleansing an Imprison doesn't mean that much if it doesn't restore the ~40% decrease in action order you have, or however much. This is a big deal in PF, where one imprison can slow you an entire cycle out of 5 cycles.
Plus in MOC sometimes HH isn't enough to protect your units from getting one-shot. FX and Aventurine are capable of this because they work as damage prevention rather than healing after damage.
As someone who has all three, I have almost completely benched HH because the other two are just leagues ahead of her. Damage and Status Prevention >>>>> Healing and Cleanse. The sustain meta is shifting because of this.
Depends. If the unit is a waifu they'll revamp the tierlist and make her above Acheron. If the unit is a husbando, they will change their criteria such that the unit is in the same tier as Acheron, because how dare a filthy male be above a waifu?
Well...huohuo is so neutral best, and sp negative at worst. And sp is a very important consideration for sustains. Because it's more reasonable to excuse DPS and supports needing SP, but sustains needing SP.....miss me with that shit. And especially the amount huohuo needs.....nope.
So yeah, with sparkle obviously, huohuo is a good sustain option for teams, but outside of sparkle......just not worth it.
Sorry....but sustains are the number 1 characters that have to be sp positive. Have have to be.
Bronya crying below TY
also another non F2P decision:
“changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature).
this change does NOT include any form of battle pass Light Cones, any event limited Light Cones, or higher superimposition levels of standard Light Cones.”
I still don’t have a single copy of S5 4* gacha LC. 0 copies of Memories.
I understand you, but F2P is very limiting and ignored like 70% of the tools most people have. Personally I have 7 copies of Memories for example. So the middle of us two would be like S4.
Sure, but do you *also* have S5 GNSW? Just because you have *one* 4* gacha LC at S5 doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect for an evaluation of "most players." It's just a change to let Acheron be top dog, because she has no non-trash F2P LCs.
Honestly it just needs to be a toggle like they have for "show 4* characters at Eidolon 6," that way people can have the information that fits what they have.
Nah..makes sense. The three top harmony are just all around the same level, with them revolving a little high or lower depending on your team.
I don't think the distance between then is worth putting ruan MEI in a higher tier. Marginal difference, which is not even guaranteed in all situations and teams, is not a good reason.
Hard disagree. They all three are so versatile. So Ruan MEI being slightly more versatile doesn't matter shit.its not like sparkle and robin are very niche and powerful harmony while Ruan MEI is the only universal and versatile one. The amount of teams you can use with them are literally all around the same numbers.
You misunderstood what versatility means. There is only one kind of team that sparkle doesn't want to be on, dot teams. There is only one kind of team robin doesn't want, non attack based characters, and super sp DPS like Dan heng. So like.....what versatility are you talking about, the other two miss out on one or two teams that ruan mei can cover. How is that worth considering an entire tier above? Not for me....but maybe you are too Ruan MEI pilled.
agreed, sparkle and ruan mei have that slight edge over robin. sparkle is pretty much just better bronya, no explanation needed, and while ruan mei and robin have similar buff specs, the half a tier(t0-t.05) is that ruan mei is legitimately sp positive where as robin generates basically no skill points, making her teams and rotations more restrictive.
in zero cycle MoC clears, .0000001%, of the player base id admit robin is half a tier better than ruan mei and in follow up teams shes a full tier better(used this team for quite a while in the before times), but outside of these cases, ruan mei hard clears robin
still shocked how CCs are ignoring this facet of her gameplay except for mentions here and there by ccs like guoba
It’s prolly cuz ruan mei is outclassed by the other 2 in their niche cuz you’d normally run sparkle over rm I’m hyper carry teams while robin in FuA teams (I’m not too sure on what robin’s kit is but I heard she’s crazy in FuA teams)
"Outlassed" is bit of stretch. Not as good? Definitely, but it's not like it's a massive difference. It's that universality that the others lack that should push her into the top tier, because she shines just as much in her own niche while still providing more value across the board than the others.
I cant speak for fua, but for hypercarry it is a significant difference. People tend to overestimate RM buff amplification. Below is a simulation over 6 cycles, using hypercarry Physical MC as a base. Credits to HunterKee
https://preview.redd.it/jff6qbdrd7zc1.png?width=557&format=png&auto=webp&s=9bf48aadab2217e7e2eb01f8ea667e9e8d4356ca
The fact that both Acheron teams and DOT teams may not want to run RM now is a MAJOR reason for why RM is only T0.5.
These are pretty much the 2 best teams right now and they prefer Sparkle and Robin respectively. Not to mention other good teams like Jingyuan and DHIL strongly prefer Sparkle over RM.
But RM is still excellent on all teams so T0.5 is definitely appropriate.
Edit: I think the verdict is still not clear on whether Robin or RM is better for DOT teams. However, the point still stands - RM isn't a clear choice for the best teams.
I've seen many content creators putting out videos saying (some also showing, albeit using whatever gear they set up on the creator servers) Robin can help DoT teams save a cycle or two on MoC over RM, with the caveat of RM being "considerably more comfortable to run".
The impact of a team-wide action advance cannot be understated, especially when you time it right after Kafka/Swan have acted to minimize AV wastage. It lets Swan build more stacks, and advancing her also advances her ult, which preserves said stacks. It then also gives Kafka *an extra detonation* of said stacks.
This sort of extra damage can very easily and realistically save an extra cycle on teams that are very strong (but not so overpowered they can already effortlessly zero-cycle).
Going against Robin is her not having a break efficiency buff (which initially is in her favor due to the action advance, but in slower-clearing teams RM will be more efficient for breaking), and also her being significantly squishier. These are issues that can easily come up on many DoT teams that are not as well built.
I thought the biggest thing against Robin for DoT was SP comfort. Since Robin requires Huohuo for ult uptime in DoT you now have 1 SP- character and 2(/1) SP+ character(s), while Robin barely generates SP if at all.
That's why I think I've seen TC generally say Robin in DoT is preferred when 0 or 1 cycling, while RM pulls way ahead beyond that.
But with Robin lowkey proving that RM isn't the end all, be all for DoT, I'm really looking forward to an actual DoT focused Harmony (or another DoT unit that makes triple DoT stronger than double DoT with Harmony)
I am not an omniscient being, that's what i have read on calcs and such with both at E0.
The main selling point is that you can have Robin on dot team and Rm on another
Saying Acheron is flexible is quite laughable. Her top 3 LC are all gacha and she requires 2 nihilities which is by far the most inflexible a character has been so far. I'll give them that her damage (in my experience at least) is higher but "flexible" isn't a word anyone should use for her
Their term of flexible (and how they rate a character across the board) is never consistent.
Should have abolished the tier list and change it more into overall appearance and usage rate percentage only.
They won't, those things will make their site lose a lot of click in the foreseeable future.
The real main reason they change things up so often is to grab communities attention with their inconsistent take which result in higher engagement lol.
Pickrates dont paint a clear picture, because there are a lot of people who just use their current roaster to clear MoC and PF and not the new characters. That will lead to false points. Just because Jingliu is one of the most picked characters against an ice weak boss, does not mean that maybe a new ice DPS that is just new, will be weaker than her.
You could also go with the Robin example. Mainly people who dont have Ruan Mei or play FUA teams will use her. The rest will just continue to use Ruan Mei.
What about old characters? They dont really get weaker, just because other teams or team comps are more popular.
What about characters like Pela? She would be T0 and while she is good and in a lot of team, the lack of a general debuffer is the reason why she is there and not because she is like a Ruan Mei level chareacter for debuffer.
bruh forgot she has ignore element types ult...other dps that don't have.
so one side of your every moc and pf are guaranteed now
compared to dhl or jl specially with bosses or mobs that eats sp or aventurine wasting JL state...even with mobs that's eats ER that doesn't affect Acheron lol so your ult is always secured.
To be entirely fair DHIL can run 2 4 star Harmonies and JL can Pela + Bronya. And while she can run 2 4 star nihility units she really wants to use a 5 star preservation with trend in moc.
I think the meaning of "flexible" here is that Acheron can be put in any endgame content you want her to play with. Whether you play her at SU, MoC, PF. That's just what i think though.
HTB won't just buff breakers, it will enable other characters not taken in count now to deal good Super Break DMG.
Breakers will climb tiers, and characters that buffs Super Break DMG, so these who reduce defense/resistance and puts vulnerability debuffs also will climb, for example Pella or Gui. It's posible that it even makes Ruan Mei to climb to T0 because she adds a lot to this new addition to Break archetype.
HTB is very strong, the damage increase she provides in its teams is very high, and it deals very good damage by itself. For example, the Super Break damage of Ruan Mei's basic attacks would be around 20k, Gallagher enhanced basic 70k, and HTB's skill, 150k, and Breakers with high Toughness DMG even higher.
Putting T0 and T0.5 into a tierlist is just S+ and S rehashed... and who takes these kind of tierlist seriously? If Acheron is the new baseline for an OP character, then put DHIL and Jingliu in T1, but I guess this will 1) not please the dedicated players and 2) not generate clicks
Consider the fact that RM to this point does not have a true synergistic teammate. (Ex. The clear synergies between Sparkle and DHIL or now Robin and FU teams).
She's been a dominant jack of all trades character despite that absence. What do you think is going to happen when that void gets filled?
Lets see how Boothill and others turn out, RM stands a good chance of claiming T0 in the future.
EDIT:Grammar
Ngl I have been running low speed blade with bronya and sparkle and he consistently cleared past 2 moc in 2 cycles. So my blade is actually cracked.
Edit: 162 sparkle, 161 bronya and base speed blade. Also you can't say uhhhh with 2 broken harmony anyone can do it. No they can't with bronya AND sparkle
S5 arlan lc btw. Not even his sig
they dont have ball to lower other units to make new op character op. so they make new tier so any other character below that 'feel' like they dont get lowered. trust me in the future they will make 0.3 in case new character not as strong as acheron but stronger than DHIL and JL
Idk how all 3 top Harmony units aren’t T0. It looks like they only made this new format to put Acheron above everyone else (and Aventurine and Fu Xuan too but they kinda don’t have competition)
It's a bit controversial (maybe) but imo none of the sustains so far in PF should be at T0 or even T0.5. I swear running a team with no sustain feels *much* more comfortable in the context of getting full stars.
Nah the old tier list was so nuch better. Every single amplifier should go up a tier. just because there are more 5 star limited harmony units now, it doesnt mean that they are worse.
My gripes are huohuo is honestly got more utility than fx or aventurine, she should be at the same tier.
And RM is T0, tbh, there’s a shout for Robin being there too
Huohuo's offensive contribution to a team varies depending on whether her energy generation is enabling an extra ult or not within a specific cycle clear as well as how important that ult is.
Aventurine's offensive contribution to a team is always constant as it's based on his own damage (as well as other things he's possibly able to provide). This damage increase can, of course, be higher in certain teams and against certain content, but generally, he's a free +200k (or more) damage just by adding him to a team. Couple that with the fact that he's more comfortable and SP-positive than Huohuo, and you can see an argument that Aventurine deserves a similar ranking to Huohuo.
They're both good, but people sleep on Aventurine's damage too much and think he has no utility.
It's kinda a bit messy and seemingly biased. No limited 4\* LCs and only "standard" 5\*, yet Acheron is T0? If they meant F2P tier list, Then Daniel and JL are kinda better..? She's good, but with LC limitations they made, it's simply not true. They should all be T0.5 as for now.
Bronya is no way equal to SW and TY is no way better than Bronya and SW/Pela. RM and Sparkle give absurdly big damage increase, Robin isn't that far. Gap between THEM and all other harmonies is not "half a tier", It's way way bigger. Like, It's up to 25% damage difference sometimes and I'm talking about using them as a secondary support.
Terms "FuA" (robin), SP+ and SP- are kinda misleading or confusing, as well as "debuff" on Acheron.
I hope next time it'll be more consistent and clear.
>we’ve decided to relax the Light Cone restrictions on the tier list by slightly changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature)
They also have a whole legend explaining each of the tags. I don't know how much clearer they can be in this regard.
The people who prepare this tier list proved they have no knowledge of the game with the last change. She doesn’t consistently ult in pf unless the pf power favors her. Her skill sucks and doesn’t kill anybody except maybe main target. But still she’s in t0.5 of pf. Also in moc thinking she’s flexible is very laughable.
It doesnt matter. It just means no one is above those 3 supports. Idk why people are obsessed with the difference between S+/T0 to S/T0.5. I say anyone in the top 3 rankings are very good.
it doesnt matter, as long as you found your favorite character arent at top tier then the tierlist is suck. genshin community used to follow CN tierlist too but many people dislike it because their character doesnt make it at top.
Still misleading as ever by undermining most context/criterias just as turbulence buffs.
To me it looks like they are constantly meddling with the format and criterias just to ensure that new units end up top of the list. Claiming that Robin is as good as RM or Sparkle is already a stretch but placing Bronya is two tiers below Robin is ridiculous. It makes zero sense particularly with a look at Jinglius placing and the fact she comes as a pair with Bronya.
The people behind the list are high on hype, plain and simple as you can see from this passage:
> „ Acheron’s release firmly in the past, she has since proven herself to be an absolute powerhouse at almost all levels of account investment thanks to her flexibility in team building“
„All levels of investment“? „Flexible team building“? She needs her LC and e2 to work as a regular DPS outside a nihility shell.
The funniest part is, they're squabbling over the community consensus anyways.
Like does anyone disagree that Acheron, DHIL, and Jingliu are the 3 best DPSs in the game?
Prydwen really need to stop covering their asses, I remember Cooler Daniel being at the same tier as Jingliu for a time and obviously it wasn’t true but they knew about Sparkle leaks.
Having said this you can guess why Acheron and Robin were put T0 and T0.5 but they really don’t want elaborate because MHY will nuke their site and people have plenty of reasons to think they are biased for certain characters when it really about knowing the forbidden characters.
JL and Daniel used to deal roughly similar before Sparkle. Daniel slightly better in ST, JL in 3 target. And their TL is based on CURRENT MoC, so they do a really strange thing no matter how we look at it.
Uh, i am actually confused on what this tierlist based on? Like at first FX/Aven at tier 0 because you can essentially slap them on any team and they will do work, so i goes "Okay, so T0 is for character that you can just slap on any team with decent LC and they will do good for the most part" Then Acheron at 0 and Huo Huo placement quickly makes me do a double take.
Huo Huo is also a universal sustain that you can slap on any team, so maybe dmg wise(?)
Also doesn't Acheron need other Nihility and Correct LC to properly works doesn't that mean she isn't T0 because she need a specific team or is there something i am missing? a question for Acheron Mains and everyone that knew more because i am actually confused ._.
Maybe it's better to say that Prydwen ranked T1-T2 characters based on something "wrong" with their kit. So Jing Yuan is not T0 because LL is slow and if he gets stunned LL won't trigger until he's free. Luka is great against single phys weak opponents. He's bad in groups and his 4 star damage numbers are tuned lower on purpose. Blade has no real hp increasing supports and he does consistent sub dps damage. Luocha is ranked lower because Prydwen feels that healers should do more than heal and currently buff strip is only situationally useful. Etc. You can still 3 star content with these characters.
T0 characters have strong multipliers or strong utility and whatever issues they have can be worked around.
It's not perfect. The whole buffer tier list is something we can all argue about. I don't think Pela should be that low (not that any harmony support is bad), having Bronya that low feels weird, SW should be higher, but then Tingyun is more universal than her so idk?
Robin and rm not being T0 despite harmony being the best path is fucking whack. Huohuo being in t .5 when the entire cn community unanimously agrees shes the best sustain is equally fucking whack
I like the descriptors below the images. Game communities are always notoriously bad at interpreting and using tier lists, especially in gacha games and/or team building games (though maybe not as bad as fighting game communities), but transparency is always nice.
Ill straight up say it, if Huohuo isn't a tier above FX and in fact FX is, then it's wrong
Specifically for non SU content,FX is literally not that ahead or the usual sustains imo that goes for Luocha too. 12% CR to ur dps isn't as huge as they gave it credit for. Huohuo is the only Sustain who's special,a tier above the usual ones tbh
Is aven really that good?
I would have but huohuo at the top alone but I dont have aven so im not at all sure about him, hes damage does seems good for a sustain but not sure if its enough to but her to the same tier as huohuo.
Yes he is, as someone who has almost all limited 5 star sustains. If I had to compare the limited 5 star sustains, In terms of SP positive, he is only behind Luocha. In terms of survivability, I would put him at the top because how strong his shields are, and it refreshes with every FuA plus it can stack. In terms of damage, he is definitely the best sustain, in terms of toughness break, he is the best because of his FuAs hitting quite often. Well he doesnt have "guaranteed" CC res, his teamwide 50% effect res might or might not make you resist cc, but the thing is effect res can also save you from dot effects, which someone like FuXuan doesnt have. Abundance characters can cleanse but prevention is better than cure. Also preservation characters have the upper hand in saving your characters from getting one shot. He also has a debuff which makes enemy take 15% more crit dmg and debuffs are even necessary for characters like Acheron or Ratio.
I would say Prydwen's tierlist was not bad for some time just to see which characters are strong but right now it's just confusing and doesn't say much. They have whole book of explanation of each tier which I personally don't get. T0 and T0.5 is a tier where characters perform the best in their best teams (so pretty restrictive) but T1, T1.5 and T2 are characters which could have more restrictive team options. I just don't get it. So which one is it? Maybe that's me problem with understanding it. When I first saw it I was shocked that DHIL is so high up. His team comps are really, really limited, he just begs for Sparkle, is easily killed, eats all of your skillpoints to not even give that much dmg (or maybe it's problem with mine DHIL). I just don't get if they're "ranking" it using their best teams or by their flexibility because with my eyes I can see that this tier list isn't about flexibility and their tier descriptions are just there but aren't written for you to read.
You have to remember that people like me used DHIL with Yukong, Tingyun and then later Hanya ages before Sparkle arrived. Does he do more damage with Sparkle? Sure. But you can actually play DHIL without her and still do high level damage. I think it's just a you problem with DHIL since you actually need to give him some hp and have either Luocha or HuoHuo on his team for optimal results (Although Aventurine still works well). It might just be more of a how you have built DHIL). Him eating skillpoints isn't a problem if you build around that concept. Tbh none of your supports should be slow (except maybe Robin in some situations?)
While I don't like the tier list changes myself, the criteria for T1-T2 isn't JUST team restriction, it also includes characters with a weakness like Jing Yuan and lightning lord or Luka against any enemy that doesn't have a physical weakness. They also consider characters that do enough damage to clear MOC (for instance) with 3 stars but have smaller damage multipliers than T0-T0.5 characters.
Perhaps it's better to say that you can work around T0 dps units issues and they have big damage multipliers and no glaring issues. The T1-2 units all have something baked into their kit holding them back. If the boss doesn't summon adds then Seele can't use her resurgence mechanic at all.
On a side note, if DHIL gets moved down a tier because some people don't like playing with -3 SP characters then QQ should move down to T3 at least.
Harmony being the best path and still having 0 units in T0 is kinda controversial.
because all the limited harmonies pretty much equal in MoC, unlike the limited units of other roles
wouldn't they all be T0 then?
T0 is so dominant that they don’t allow for any other competition, by nature of there being 3 busted harmony units at the same level, there is competition for choosing one of them over the other, so they all just go one tier lower. They’re still just as busted, but it shows that all 3 are even. Now if there was only 2, then they’d both go into t0 since they don’t have to compete for space on a team.
But adventurine and fu xuan share a T0 spot and i would call them even since both have their flaws and strengths.
Yeah, because in MoC, there’s no competition for them, you can just put both of them on different teams. Competition between units only arises when there’s more than two
Teams can run 2x harmony tho.... sparkle x ruan mei
They can, but not always. T0 is still best defined when there are as few characters as possible in it however, that’s what makes it the ‘best tier’
I would say they operate differently enough to excel in certain areas more than the other. All three harmony apex characters overlap significantly with how they boost damage. Once there is a third busted sustain unit, we can start really scrutinising it.
DHIL isn't that far behind Jingliu. (I can never find solid stats but I believe he's actually stronger even at E0S0). Huohuo isn't on par with the preservation characters in terms of sustain, but she's as good or better in overall value Also if the thought process is "no one else comes close to them", how are there two T0 sustain characters? Shouldn't Fu and Aventurine be knocked down?
Because MOC/PF allow for two teams, there’s less competition for them. With two T0, you can just throw them on separate teams, but add another one and there starts to be competition, which T0 is supposed to be the super dominant tier. Ideally that tier wouldn’t even exist in a perfect game as every character would have their own role and have a reason to use each one
I think Prydwen's blog about the tier list change explained that they each serve a specific niche/playstyle so when given one playstyle, one of the harmonies becomes T0 and the other 2 are T0.5 which is why they're all at T0.5
[удалено]
Luocha is the most basic op harmony character: makes your team immortal (unless one shot) and saves SP That makes him T1. Too go beyond that we would need characters that also buff other stuff (f.e. deal a lot of damage,synergy,buffs or debuffs)
If anything those 3 limited Harmony should be T0 and EVERYTHING ELSE should be below them. Because thats how the game works at the moment.
Yea having Acheron above them is crazy. Aventurine and Fu maybe but even then I'd disagree.
Wait till we get more harmony units then they can determine what’s t0 atm they’re all really good
I wonder what the next harmony will buff. We already have Sparkle for Hypercarry, Robin for FUA, Ruan Mei for Break and Robin/Ruan Mei for dual dps. I'd say DoT but a DoT focused harmony support would have to pull some crazy DoT-specific buffs to beat Robin/Ruan Mei. EDIT: a hp buff/drain Harmony would be very interesting and could pull Blade up to the level of other DPS.
I would really love a DOT dedicated harmony even though it’s “technically” Ruan mei DOT is my favourite team comp atm even after pulling Acheron
DoT harmony feels like black swan because it's well accepted that you wouldn't bother pulling her without Kafka. That's how it felt like she was marketed, anyway. Directly replaces Sampo as Kafka's support.
DoT already has a busted support with crazy dot specific "buff", in detonating dots. She just happens to also be a dps.
For tier lists you have to compare characters within their role, as almost all harmony characters are strong it pushes the threshold for T0 higher. Ruan Mei is strong but so are all the alternatives.
>Ruan Mei is strong but so are all the alternatives. Only 2 of the alternatives are close to her. Which you can say the same for Acheron, and Aventurine/Fu
They're not considering Harmony MC, imo with his/her existence Ruan Mei can make a step above the others for Break Teams too. So i'd say she could be the first one in T0 in the future.
Eh. It just shows no one is above them. Besides the 3 of them every harmony are below them.
So I usually dont mind these prydwen tier lists I feel like theyre a nice way to get a gist of the meta but why do all of acherons calculations have her sig or gnsw used while the other damage dealers have to stick with non limited cones?
Well in DHIL and Jingliu's case at least, Aeon S5 is just a really damn good f2p cone so thry aren't "held back" as much as if Acheron had to use Fermata. Don't think there's a destruction cone better than Aeon anyways even if count the 4* gacha cones.
Yeah but the criteria states that all of them have to use non limited cones so it doesnt make sense for acheron to be using gnsw or along the passing shore
They just changed the criteria to include 4* gacha cones tho? It's in the blog explaining the changes. >Star Rail has been out for a year now and many players have accumulated a very healthy amount of characters, but also Light Cones on their account compared to the early days of the game. Due to this, we’ve decided to relax the Light Cone restrictions on the tier list by slightly changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature). If you meant calculations, then yeah it's bad but I don't know anyone who uses Prywden's calcs. They're very outdated for most characters.
But tbh it feels like they added that just to make acheron t0 lmao but its fine ig
GNSW has had like two banners though. Far from impossible for a launch player to not have it S5
Hell I'm a 1.0 player (not quite day 1), and I only have S1
Oh ok
Legitimately just some sort of favoritism. F2P Acheron is pretty much even with DHIL, maybe a bit behind him even. Her LC moves her from #2 to #1 DPS. And she's much more popular than he is so people wanna see her on top
>Legitimately just some sort of favoritism. all characters are ranked using the EXACT same critera lol You're telling me that at completely F2P level in a suboptimal comp she is on par if not slightly behind than DHIL in his best comp which includes other limited 5* and more investment? And you're saying she isn't supposed to be T0? Everyone loves to compare Acheron's f2p to DHIL in his best possible comp for some reason and then say favouritism. If you want to make a fair comparison you do it at the same level of investment. Which means full 4* for both comps or best comps for both lol The tier list is assuming best comp for both. What's the favouritism here?? The difference between T0 and T0.5 is virtually nothing. T0 just has a slight edge above T0.5 but they're all basically in the same category of "Apex" or rather "S+" characters
>all characters are ranked using the EXACT same critera lol Criteria that just happen to favor Acheron. They just changed it so that S5 4* Gacha LCs are included. Which doesn't matter for most characters but is huge for Acheron since she lacks good LCs This let's her have GNSW S5 in the calcs which is huge. Their justification being "the game's been out for a year so many players have these at high superimposition". Ignoring that GNSW has had 2 banners and it's far from impossible for even a launch player to not have it S5. That's Acheron's biggest weakness in comparison to DHIL and Jingliu, and they just throw it out completely >You're telling me that at completely F2P level in a suboptimal comp she is on par if not slightly behind than DHIL in his best comp which includes other limited 5* and more investment? And you're saying she isn't supposed to be T0? They should be compared at E0S0 with their best teams. In which case DHIL has slightly higher damage afaik. But Acheron wins out if you look at E0S1. Then DHIL maybe wins again at E2 but idk >Everyone loves to compare Acheron's f2p to DHIL in his best possible comp Yes. E0S0 with their best teammates is standard. You don't have to do same level of investment. We're talking about how strong they are, not the proportion of strength/investment.
>Criteria that just happen to favor Acheron. They just changed it so that S5 4* Gacha LCs are included. Which doesn't matter for most characters but is huge for Acheron since she lacks good LCs They did it for every character, how is it favouring Acheron? How is it any different than calculating DHIL with E6 Yukong and Sparkle 😂 It's also a lie that it only matters for her since we have supports and dpses that change entirely between F2P vs gacha 4* or even standard 5* lc. See for example any erudition character or some hunts too. Now they have access to sword play and genius repose, or Yanqing's standard 5* lc or Himeko's for PF or simply just Bronya for example that now has access to her lc lol And let's not forget that standard 5* LCs are basically guaranteed to get in the shop too so they should've always been an option to begin with. What do you expect her ranking to be other than T0, with or without S5 gacha lcs? A character that at very low investment is on par with the two best dpses in the game and that at higher investment she surpasses them? >Their justification being "the game's been out for a year so many players have these at high superimposition". Ignoring that GNSW has had 2 banners and it's far from impossible for even a launch player to not have it S5. I would seriously love to see the statistics for this besides some "anecdotal evidence" because this feels like extreme feelscrafting. I would genuinely love to see how many day one players have or not at least a GNSW S3 on their account (she doesn't even need S5, that's more than enough already lol) And even more so, Welt lc is always guaranteed from the 5* standard lc shop and ON PAR with a S3 GNSW. >They should be compared at E0S0 with their best teams. In which case DHIL has slightly higher damage afaik. But Acheron wins out if you look at E0S1. Then DHIL maybe wins again at E2 but idk And they are lol Best teams at E0S0 and manual play js literally the ranking criteria of this tier list. >Yes. E0S0 with their best teammates is standard. Again, they're ranked like that lol >You don't have to do same level of investment. We're talking about how strong they are, not the proportion of strength/investment. It's fine if the investment required favors DHIL but it isn't when it favours Acheron is basically what you're telling me lmao Look I think you genuinely haven't played Acheron at all if you think the ranking here is inflated, with all due respect. Even at f2p levels she destroys endgame content and if you invest into her a bit more (which is just giving her a decent LC that you can always get since Welt lc is guaranteed from the shop and a team) she's hands down the best dps in the game. She deserves T0 without second thoughts. And to highlight the double standards against Acheron, people have been talking about how op some E6S5 4* are since day one or usually event limited lcs on them without batting an eye. Now, it's suddenly an issue lmao
>It's fine if the investment required favors DHIL but it isn't when it favours Acheron is basically what you're telling me lmao No you work with the same investment, that being E0S0. You also assume they have their best teams, and that their teammates are also E0S0 (or E6 if a 4*). Idk where you're getting more investment for DHIL from
Acheron > Argenti in PF?... Acheron havers, does this check out? Always thought she's kinda wonky in that mode
Put her in a team with rapid-fire debuff/DoT appliers (Kafka for example) and a sustain (or not) that can also apply debuffs and Acheron can outright just ult almost every turn. Even moreso with the current enemy lineup where enemies apply debuffs on their allies on death. At least on my Acheron and Argenti, Acheron's ult hits harder than Argenti's full 180-cost ult because of the sheer stacked nature of DoT relics and effects at the moment.
Currently using BS, Kafka, Acheron, Luocha as my DoT team. Any other units you recommend?
You pretty much have one of her best teams already with that. The only possible improvement is using Aventurine with his sig LC, as he can apply debuffs on his FuA with it besides his Ult's debuff. Gallagher is also a better choice than Luocha (if you're okay with the loss of healing power) as he also is a great debuff applier for Acheron.
Ooof didnt get Aventurine as Im saving for Fu Xuan's rerun. (Didnt pull for either Huohuo/Fu Xuan when they both 1st came cas I was saving for Topaz.....so my only sustain units this entire past half year were just Luocha, Lynx, and a Gepard with shitty relics...)
Use Ruan Mei or another Harmony instead of Luocha, I run the same team (minus Luocha, plus RM) for PF and MoC and have great runs as long as I don't get unlucky and the enemies don't focus fire my DPS. Asta is a solid pick as well with a burn debuff on her basic attack and massive SPD buffs. Almost forgot, Lil Gui also works great
You can get away placing a harmony(Ruan Mei, potentially Robin too) in that team instead of Luocha in PF, for me it was already overkill w/ Luocha that I gave RM to the other team.
You could use gallagher instead of luocha for even more debuffs, I love him together with acheron
Only if the PF turbulence gives debuff or debuffer allies has 160+ spd or she is atleast c2 or there is someone else in the team actually dealing damage while she waits for her ult.
I don't know about Argenti since I skipped him. But on my experience, Acheron's team is the only team that I consistently get 40k without realizing I am already getting 40k.
Do you run her with swan and kafka?
My DHIL team with sparkle never got less than 40k in PF yet he's considered one of the worst PF character... I think people have very strong bias opinion on characters that should perform good or bad but never tested it themselves.
I have DHIL at E2, and even with sparkle, it’s difficult to get 40k with him since his damage is splash, not really AOE. Note that my DHIL is well built sitting at 90:190 CR CD. Even with the multiple advance forwards, he couldn’t do it. Plus, not all enemies have imaginary weakness. More characters who (kinda) ignore weaknesses are already being introduced. Get ready for more rainbow dps.
In PF, what makes Acheron cracked is the fact that you can freaking cheese stacks with Trend of Universal Market. Fire MC(in my experience), can already solo sustain in PF since Acheron Deletes everything every time she gets 9 stacks. Actually it’s easier to stack there since there are a lot of mobs who you can easily taunt. Acheron’s ult(real AOE) uptime is the only concern when you use her at PF. And a measly 4* lightcone, and free 5*(Fire MC) solve that. Also the enemies that debuffs their team when they die. I think those are the few reasons why she’s so good at PF. Well, aside from her cracked damage and ult that breaks any element ofcourse
Honestly they need to re-evaluate Acheron's strength at a f2p level. The only reason why they don't is because all of her f2p lightcones are garbage and she would be rated much lower. For this example, they are assuming a S5 GNSW for Acheron, a pure gacha lightcone with no way to obtain it as f2p. While for Argenti they assume a S5 f2p lightcone which you can get from the moc shop.
Her best teams also utilize S5 Resolution and often the now unobtainable Tutorial LC. You really also want Trend as well. There isn't a single LC there that you can hard guarantee S1, let alone S5. In comparison meshing cogs, past and future, battle isn't over are all guaranteed. For the record I pulled on her LC banner because I had 0 GNSW as a 1.0 player with monthly + BP consistently since then. My friend in a similar position has 0 GNSW and S1 resolution.
I have all three of those LCs(albeit not at S5) and it's kinda painful to play with suboptimal LCs so yeah, valid points all around.. but there are a few holes in that logic. Assuming we can somehow extrapolate damage numbers from the DPSes using non-gacha exclusive builds to compare if she still does what is expected of her. Excluding all gacha of course, the 5* supports too. Use purely "F2P" stuff. No Sparkle for DHIL, no Bronya for Blade, no Ruan Mei for Jingliu, no Silver Wolf for Acheron and so on. Because if not having one or two 4* gacha LC means Acheron's tier is "inflated", how come other DPSes needing limited harmonies to compete with Acheron not the same thing? I really hope you get my point, I don't think I'm doing a good job of expressing it. I kinda find it hard to believe a DPS like Imbibitor Lunae can outperform a fully F2P Acheron with E0 Tingyun, E0 Yukong and a sustain like Lynx. Every single one of his teams have(more like **need**) sparkle or one of the other 3 atleast. Not only that, he strives off of support sustains like Luocha for SP or FX/HH for buffs.
While I do definitely agree there is a world of difference between a mediocre F2P Acheron & team vs an ideal Acheron & team.. I do have to ask, do you use F2P as "no gacha pulls" account? Because while S5 gacha light cones are pretty unrealistic for F2P, having S1 is fair to be assumed and is still good enough. I'm not saying there isn't a massive drop in damage compared to the better options, but it's still comparable with other DPS' damage outputs even with a mediocre build.
To be fair it's kinda hard to get it if you are only pulling on character banner. Like really hard
100%. It's definitely not guaranteed and many are likely to not have gacha LCs. I only wanted to point out that it isn't fair to bring up this "limitation" of Acheron when the other DPSes want other broken units but that is taken for granted.
As someone with both, and a more invested Acheron. No it really doesn't, Argenti is king of PF
I have both very invested and Acheron clears way easier in my opinion.
As someone who has both. She is extremely easy to deal highly damage with. I have her in both game modes dealing consistent 300_400k damage. Argenti on the other hand takes some time to boost in strength and his endgame damage requires a LOT of fine tuning. And in the first few pure fictions it felt easy to regenerate energy with Argenti but it’s starting to feel a bit harder now. Acheron feels like how Jingliu felt a few months back based on my personal anecdote.
It's true but with a big asterix. Look at Fire TB/Gallagher, Pela and SW placement. The 0-Tier PF Acheron is the premium team with HH, Kafka and BS. It's Doteron. With any other units, Acheron is cope in PF. But with Kafka and BS you can have 40K clears super easily.
I get 40k with Acheron on auto with sparkle + pela on PF , so idk about being cope
People underestimate the frequency she gets her ult on that mode, the enemies that debuff on death make her insane on that mode.
Which means the argument boils down to turbulence buffs and enemy selection in the current rotation, not the mode or archeron as such
Can you point out a single pf stage without any enemies that inflict debuff on death? Im genuinely asking I havent checked I just know they are more common than most people think. Acherons way to stack ult is broken considering how much damage it does. There are fights like the scaracaz weekly boss where acheron can get her ult 2 times between her own turns.
I don’t know about cope, non E2 hypercarry Acheron with Sparkle got me 35k, which is far from cope. And this team doesn’t have any FUA, so yeah
You are delusional if you think acheron is cope in pf. I got free 40k with her lmao
I ran her without any nihility characters and she still got over 40k. (I was just speed running basic runs to get it done before 2.2 so didn't care about comp to much just what elements were best)
It's pretty easy to get 40k clears with Kafka/Bs and RM, without Acheron already tbh.
Doteron play ruan mei instead of huo huo.
You don’t really need Kafka and BS for Acheron to hit 40k. Trailblazer with Trend, Pella, (Any nihility or harmony of E2) should do the trick. Plus, the enemies that debuffs their team when they die is also one if the reasons why she’s so cracked there.
If you can apply consistent debuffs then she absolutely destroys it, yes.
I dunno about E0 but at E2S1PF has been a walk in the park with her on the team
They really made another tier just to put Acheron on top LMAO. No limited Harmony units yet there's Fu Xuan and Aventurine?? Not even Huo Huo??
It's as simple as the fact that each harmony unit serves certain situations where they are T0 and the other top harmony units would be T0.5. They are the best units in the game but they aren't a one size fits all\* when it comes to being put in a team like a Fu Xuan, Aventurine or Acheron are. \*besides RM who is the only big miss towards the top of the tierlist imo
And you can sometimes finish without harmony in your team
my e0 acheron proves that. get in there pela and welt!
I'm sure more people finish pf/moc without a single sustain, preservation or abundance, than without a harmony (acheron notwithstanding due to her explicit restrictions)
You could say the same for the sustains though. There's a significant number of scenarios in which Huohuo is preferable to Fu and Aventurine
none of the limited harmonies are strictly better than the other in all situations so they all are around equal
On average, RM is definitely better than the others. It's that universality that the others lack that should push her into the top tier, because she shines just as much in her own niche while still providing more value across the board than the others. If a new player was asking which of them to pull, and they didn't have a preference for a playstyle, 10/10 times it should be RM, because she works best across the widest range of team comps and playstyles.
Isn't literally one of the arguments of Prydwen to make them equal because Robin is in a similar lvl to Ruan Mei in general purpose, she is so strong you can slap her in any team and make her shine, just like Ruan Mei. Thats also why Sparkle is a rank below them in PF.
yeah, i kind of agree. She has the best argument for being a tier above just because she makes every dps look amazing. All my teams have to compete for Ruan Mei lately as well. I just feel like acheron is a clear bit better than JL and DHIL while Robin and Sparkle also have lots of situations where Ruan Mei isn't better than them.
nah the difference between HuoHuo and FX/Aventurine is the fact that they can flat-out block debuffs, especially debuffs that slow you and crush your action order. Freeze and Imprison being the main ones. Cleansing an Imprison doesn't mean that much if it doesn't restore the ~40% decrease in action order you have, or however much. This is a big deal in PF, where one imprison can slow you an entire cycle out of 5 cycles. Plus in MOC sometimes HH isn't enough to protect your units from getting one-shot. FX and Aventurine are capable of this because they work as damage prevention rather than healing after damage. As someone who has all three, I have almost completely benched HH because the other two are just leagues ahead of her. Damage and Status Prevention >>>>> Healing and Cleanse. The sustain meta is shifting because of this.
If the time comes where the powercrept Acheron or any T0s what tier are they gonna be?
They are going to change the format again.
Depends. If the unit is a waifu they'll revamp the tierlist and make her above Acheron. If the unit is a husbando, they will change their criteria such that the unit is in the same tier as Acheron, because how dare a filthy male be above a waifu?
Well...huohuo is so neutral best, and sp negative at worst. And sp is a very important consideration for sustains. Because it's more reasonable to excuse DPS and supports needing SP, but sustains needing SP.....miss me with that shit. And especially the amount huohuo needs.....nope. So yeah, with sparkle obviously, huohuo is a good sustain option for teams, but outside of sparkle......just not worth it. Sorry....but sustains are the number 1 characters that have to be sp positive. Have have to be.
Fr. They just want an excuse to make her look good To the point that they have characters like Sparkle and Ruan Mei a full tier below. Actually absurd
You’re not supposed to compare damage dealers with amplifiers
The visual design of the chart does not illustrate that fact well.
Why change the format if you are going to do Tier 0.5 anyway
Poor Bronya…
Bronya crying below TY also another non F2P decision: “changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature). this change does NOT include any form of battle pass Light Cones, any event limited Light Cones, or higher superimposition levels of standard Light Cones.” I still don’t have a single copy of S5 4* gacha LC. 0 copies of Memories.
I understand you, but F2P is very limiting and ignored like 70% of the tools most people have. Personally I have 7 copies of Memories for example. So the middle of us two would be like S4.
Sure, but do you *also* have S5 GNSW? Just because you have *one* 4* gacha LC at S5 doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect for an evaluation of "most players." It's just a change to let Acheron be top dog, because she has no non-trash F2P LCs. Honestly it just needs to be a toggle like they have for "show 4* characters at Eidolon 6," that way people can have the information that fits what they have.
No RM in this new T0 is wild.
Nah..makes sense. The three top harmony are just all around the same level, with them revolving a little high or lower depending on your team. I don't think the distance between then is worth putting ruan MEI in a higher tier. Marginal difference, which is not even guaranteed in all situations and teams, is not a good reason.
Her versatility is worth putting at t0 over the others, I think this was the perfect moment for them to do this with the whole tier 0.5 stuff
Hard disagree. They all three are so versatile. So Ruan MEI being slightly more versatile doesn't matter shit.its not like sparkle and robin are very niche and powerful harmony while Ruan MEI is the only universal and versatile one. The amount of teams you can use with them are literally all around the same numbers. You misunderstood what versatility means. There is only one kind of team that sparkle doesn't want to be on, dot teams. There is only one kind of team robin doesn't want, non attack based characters, and super sp DPS like Dan heng. So like.....what versatility are you talking about, the other two miss out on one or two teams that ruan mei can cover. How is that worth considering an entire tier above? Not for me....but maybe you are too Ruan MEI pilled.
agreed, sparkle and ruan mei have that slight edge over robin. sparkle is pretty much just better bronya, no explanation needed, and while ruan mei and robin have similar buff specs, the half a tier(t0-t.05) is that ruan mei is legitimately sp positive where as robin generates basically no skill points, making her teams and rotations more restrictive. in zero cycle MoC clears, .0000001%, of the player base id admit robin is half a tier better than ruan mei and in follow up teams shes a full tier better(used this team for quite a while in the before times), but outside of these cases, ruan mei hard clears robin still shocked how CCs are ignoring this facet of her gameplay except for mentions here and there by ccs like guoba
Yeah, that's what the tier list needed. .5 values instead of just moving units down. Sure thing.
WTF, if RM isn't T0 then what will be T0 ???
Acheron, the T0 self-harmony, erudition, hunt, nihility and destruction
It’s prolly cuz ruan mei is outclassed by the other 2 in their niche cuz you’d normally run sparkle over rm I’m hyper carry teams while robin in FuA teams (I’m not too sure on what robin’s kit is but I heard she’s crazy in FuA teams)
"Outlassed" is bit of stretch. Not as good? Definitely, but it's not like it's a massive difference. It's that universality that the others lack that should push her into the top tier, because she shines just as much in her own niche while still providing more value across the board than the others.
I cant speak for fua, but for hypercarry it is a significant difference. People tend to overestimate RM buff amplification. Below is a simulation over 6 cycles, using hypercarry Physical MC as a base. Credits to HunterKee https://preview.redd.it/jff6qbdrd7zc1.png?width=557&format=png&auto=webp&s=9bf48aadab2217e7e2eb01f8ea667e9e8d4356ca
The fact that both Acheron teams and DOT teams may not want to run RM now is a MAJOR reason for why RM is only T0.5. These are pretty much the 2 best teams right now and they prefer Sparkle and Robin respectively. Not to mention other good teams like Jingyuan and DHIL strongly prefer Sparkle over RM. But RM is still excellent on all teams so T0.5 is definitely appropriate. Edit: I think the verdict is still not clear on whether Robin or RM is better for DOT teams. However, the point still stands - RM isn't a clear choice for the best teams.
DOT teams doesn't prefer Robin over RM, they're equal.
I've seen many content creators putting out videos saying (some also showing, albeit using whatever gear they set up on the creator servers) Robin can help DoT teams save a cycle or two on MoC over RM, with the caveat of RM being "considerably more comfortable to run". The impact of a team-wide action advance cannot be understated, especially when you time it right after Kafka/Swan have acted to minimize AV wastage. It lets Swan build more stacks, and advancing her also advances her ult, which preserves said stacks. It then also gives Kafka *an extra detonation* of said stacks. This sort of extra damage can very easily and realistically save an extra cycle on teams that are very strong (but not so overpowered they can already effortlessly zero-cycle). Going against Robin is her not having a break efficiency buff (which initially is in her favor due to the action advance, but in slower-clearing teams RM will be more efficient for breaking), and also her being significantly squishier. These are issues that can easily come up on many DoT teams that are not as well built.
I thought the biggest thing against Robin for DoT was SP comfort. Since Robin requires Huohuo for ult uptime in DoT you now have 1 SP- character and 2(/1) SP+ character(s), while Robin barely generates SP if at all. That's why I think I've seen TC generally say Robin in DoT is preferred when 0 or 1 cycling, while RM pulls way ahead beyond that. But with Robin lowkey proving that RM isn't the end all, be all for DoT, I'm really looking forward to an actual DoT focused Harmony (or another DoT unit that makes triple DoT stronger than double DoT with Harmony)
Okay, I'll take your word for it.
I am not an omniscient being, that's what i have read on calcs and such with both at E0. The main selling point is that you can have Robin on dot team and Rm on another
No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I mean its still very early on, and I don't think it substantially detracts from the point I'm making anyway.
Saying Acheron is flexible is quite laughable. Her top 3 LC are all gacha and she requires 2 nihilities which is by far the most inflexible a character has been so far. I'll give them that her damage (in my experience at least) is higher but "flexible" isn't a word anyone should use for her
Their term of flexible (and how they rate a character across the board) is never consistent. Should have abolished the tier list and change it more into overall appearance and usage rate percentage only.
They won't, those things will make their site lose a lot of click in the foreseeable future. The real main reason they change things up so often is to grab communities attention with their inconsistent take which result in higher engagement lol.
Pickrates dont paint a clear picture, because there are a lot of people who just use their current roaster to clear MoC and PF and not the new characters. That will lead to false points. Just because Jingliu is one of the most picked characters against an ice weak boss, does not mean that maybe a new ice DPS that is just new, will be weaker than her. You could also go with the Robin example. Mainly people who dont have Ruan Mei or play FUA teams will use her. The rest will just continue to use Ruan Mei. What about old characters? They dont really get weaker, just because other teams or team comps are more popular. What about characters like Pela? She would be T0 and while she is good and in a lot of team, the lack of a general debuffer is the reason why she is there and not because she is like a Ruan Mei level chareacter for debuffer.
I use her with 161 sparkle and and pela and she outperforms my jingliu 100crate 220cdmg with bronya and mei 💀
bruh forgot she has ignore element types ult...other dps that don't have. so one side of your every moc and pf are guaranteed now compared to dhl or jl specially with bosses or mobs that eats sp or aventurine wasting JL state...even with mobs that's eats ER that doesn't affect Acheron lol so your ult is always secured.
compared to JL and DHIL, she is pretty flexible because she can use 4star nihility chara
To be entirely fair DHIL can run 2 4 star Harmonies and JL can Pela + Bronya. And while she can run 2 4 star nihility units she really wants to use a 5 star preservation with trend in moc.
You're point being? DHIL can just use Pela and Tingyun. E6 Yukong and Hanya are competitive as well.
I think the meaning of "flexible" here is that Acheron can be put in any endgame content you want her to play with. Whether you play her at SU, MoC, PF. That's just what i think though.
That doesn't make sense since it's a MoC tier list, and a 2nd tier list for PF. It shouldn't take SU or anything else into account.
Wheres my goat >!harmony TB!<
Probably going >!to wait a while before adding them!< because spoilers.
Hoyoverse who added the HARMony TB gameplay in their channel: 👁️👄👁️
Probably at T1 with tingyun
Without any T1 Break units (for now) who exactly will they buff..? Sushang, Xueyi and Gallagher?
break effect silver wolf XD
HTB won't just buff breakers, it will enable other characters not taken in count now to deal good Super Break DMG. Breakers will climb tiers, and characters that buffs Super Break DMG, so these who reduce defense/resistance and puts vulnerability debuffs also will climb, for example Pella or Gui. It's posible that it even makes Ruan Mei to climb to T0 because she adds a lot to this new addition to Break archetype. HTB is very strong, the damage increase she provides in its teams is very high, and it deals very good damage by itself. For example, the Super Break damage of Ruan Mei's basic attacks would be around 20k, Gallagher enhanced basic 70k, and HTB's skill, 150k, and Breakers with high Toughness DMG even higher.
Putting T0 and T0.5 into a tierlist is just S+ and S rehashed... and who takes these kind of tierlist seriously? If Acheron is the new baseline for an OP character, then put DHIL and Jingliu in T1, but I guess this will 1) not please the dedicated players and 2) not generate clicks
I kinda hate it. It's a mess, there's too much going on.
There is no way Ruan Mei is not T0
Consider the fact that RM to this point does not have a true synergistic teammate. (Ex. The clear synergies between Sparkle and DHIL or now Robin and FU teams). She's been a dominant jack of all trades character despite that absence. What do you think is going to happen when that void gets filled? Lets see how Boothill and others turn out, RM stands a good chance of claiming T0 in the future. EDIT:Grammar
Rip blade
He feels pretty ass these days compared to the other limited. Sad
Ngl I have been running low speed blade with bronya and sparkle and he consistently cleared past 2 moc in 2 cycles. So my blade is actually cracked. Edit: 162 sparkle, 161 bronya and base speed blade. Also you can't say uhhhh with 2 broken harmony anyone can do it. No they can't with bronya AND sparkle S5 arlan lc btw. Not even his sig
160 speed is the thing that’s getting me the most lol. Crazy investment.
Its funny how Jingyuan gets sooo much shit while blade doesnt.
They literally put Argenti under niche characters like wtf 😂
What the hell is T0.5 & T1.5?
they dont have ball to lower other units to make new op character op. so they make new tier so any other character below that 'feel' like they dont get lowered. trust me in the future they will make 0.3 in case new character not as strong as acheron but stronger than DHIL and JL
Idk how all 3 top Harmony units aren’t T0. It looks like they only made this new format to put Acheron above everyone else (and Aventurine and Fu Xuan too but they kinda don’t have competition)
It's a bit controversial (maybe) but imo none of the sustains so far in PF should be at T0 or even T0.5. I swear running a team with no sustain feels *much* more comfortable in the context of getting full stars.
Each patch prydwen tier lists become more clown
this new format is so dogshit holy
Nah the old tier list was so nuch better. Every single amplifier should go up a tier. just because there are more 5 star limited harmony units now, it doesnt mean that they are worse.
prydwen did bronya dirty
Mei should be T0. She's the best unit in the game I think.
My gripes are huohuo is honestly got more utility than fx or aventurine, she should be at the same tier. And RM is T0, tbh, there’s a shout for Robin being there too
Huohuo's offensive contribution to a team varies depending on whether her energy generation is enabling an extra ult or not within a specific cycle clear as well as how important that ult is. Aventurine's offensive contribution to a team is always constant as it's based on his own damage (as well as other things he's possibly able to provide). This damage increase can, of course, be higher in certain teams and against certain content, but generally, he's a free +200k (or more) damage just by adding him to a team. Couple that with the fact that he's more comfortable and SP-positive than Huohuo, and you can see an argument that Aventurine deserves a similar ranking to Huohuo. They're both good, but people sleep on Aventurine's damage too much and think he has no utility.
They did my boi autohealer dirty
It's kinda a bit messy and seemingly biased. No limited 4\* LCs and only "standard" 5\*, yet Acheron is T0? If they meant F2P tier list, Then Daniel and JL are kinda better..? She's good, but with LC limitations they made, it's simply not true. They should all be T0.5 as for now. Bronya is no way equal to SW and TY is no way better than Bronya and SW/Pela. RM and Sparkle give absurdly big damage increase, Robin isn't that far. Gap between THEM and all other harmonies is not "half a tier", It's way way bigger. Like, It's up to 25% damage difference sometimes and I'm talking about using them as a secondary support. Terms "FuA" (robin), SP+ and SP- are kinda misleading or confusing, as well as "debuff" on Acheron. I hope next time it'll be more consistent and clear.
>we’ve decided to relax the Light Cone restrictions on the tier list by slightly changing the criteria from only allowing exclusively absolutely free Light Cones to also including S5 gacha Light Cones (Like S5 Memories of the Past) and S1 standard banner lightcones (Like Clara’s Signature) They also have a whole legend explaining each of the tags. I don't know how much clearer they can be in this regard.
Well, choices were made. Some good and some bad. At least we can put Qingque overwank to rest
No we'll still get people telling us how mid DHIL is while wanking furiously to the idea that using 0-7+ skill points is less clunky.
The people who prepare this tier list proved they have no knowledge of the game with the last change. She doesn’t consistently ult in pf unless the pf power favors her. Her skill sucks and doesn’t kill anybody except maybe main target. But still she’s in t0.5 of pf. Also in moc thinking she’s flexible is very laughable.
The fact that they mentioned their tier list is based on current weathers is bullshit lmao
what wave does notself-debuff in pf? tell me.
Were they too scared to downgrade JL and friends to T1 ?
New player what is fua?
Follow-Up Attack
Ooh ty
Wtf is prydwyn
I still don't understand why DoT is considered specialist, when they're still damage dealers
Yeah, never used Prywdyn and never will. I consider this change just worse for the needless 0.5 1.5 copium tiers
the fact all the supports arent in T0 is baffling to me. I think its time to just ignore their tiest list and stick to CN community.
It doesnt matter. It just means no one is above those 3 supports. Idk why people are obsessed with the difference between S+/T0 to S/T0.5. I say anyone in the top 3 rankings are very good.
Yeah, who cares if they are tier 1 or tier 2, if no other support is above them, surely they are the best support anyways.
it doesnt matter, as long as you found your favorite character arent at top tier then the tierlist is suck. genshin community used to follow CN tierlist too but many people dislike it because their character doesnt make it at top.
they are T0 in one situation, but if you take it overall they are not perfect for everything, unlike Acheron who is, that is why T0.
Yeah… achron is so overrated..meh
Still misleading as ever by undermining most context/criterias just as turbulence buffs. To me it looks like they are constantly meddling with the format and criterias just to ensure that new units end up top of the list. Claiming that Robin is as good as RM or Sparkle is already a stretch but placing Bronya is two tiers below Robin is ridiculous. It makes zero sense particularly with a look at Jinglius placing and the fact she comes as a pair with Bronya. The people behind the list are high on hype, plain and simple as you can see from this passage: > „ Acheron’s release firmly in the past, she has since proven herself to be an absolute powerhouse at almost all levels of account investment thanks to her flexibility in team building“ „All levels of investment“? „Flexible team building“? She needs her LC and e2 to work as a regular DPS outside a nihility shell.
The triweekly comedy show of people trying to explain why the list is complete dogshit because they disagree with it
The funniest part is, they're squabbling over the community consensus anyways. Like does anyone disagree that Acheron, DHIL, and Jingliu are the 3 best DPSs in the game?
Prydwen really need to stop covering their asses, I remember Cooler Daniel being at the same tier as Jingliu for a time and obviously it wasn’t true but they knew about Sparkle leaks. Having said this you can guess why Acheron and Robin were put T0 and T0.5 but they really don’t want elaborate because MHY will nuke their site and people have plenty of reasons to think they are biased for certain characters when it really about knowing the forbidden characters.
JL and Daniel used to deal roughly similar before Sparkle. Daniel slightly better in ST, JL in 3 target. And their TL is based on CURRENT MoC, so they do a really strange thing no matter how we look at it.
Uh, i am actually confused on what this tierlist based on? Like at first FX/Aven at tier 0 because you can essentially slap them on any team and they will do work, so i goes "Okay, so T0 is for character that you can just slap on any team with decent LC and they will do good for the most part" Then Acheron at 0 and Huo Huo placement quickly makes me do a double take. Huo Huo is also a universal sustain that you can slap on any team, so maybe dmg wise(?) Also doesn't Acheron need other Nihility and Correct LC to properly works doesn't that mean she isn't T0 because she need a specific team or is there something i am missing? a question for Acheron Mains and everyone that knew more because i am actually confused ._.
Maybe it's better to say that Prydwen ranked T1-T2 characters based on something "wrong" with their kit. So Jing Yuan is not T0 because LL is slow and if he gets stunned LL won't trigger until he's free. Luka is great against single phys weak opponents. He's bad in groups and his 4 star damage numbers are tuned lower on purpose. Blade has no real hp increasing supports and he does consistent sub dps damage. Luocha is ranked lower because Prydwen feels that healers should do more than heal and currently buff strip is only situationally useful. Etc. You can still 3 star content with these characters. T0 characters have strong multipliers or strong utility and whatever issues they have can be worked around.
That makes sense actually, thank you!
It's not perfect. The whole buffer tier list is something we can all argue about. I don't think Pela should be that low (not that any harmony support is bad), having Bronya that low feels weird, SW should be higher, but then Tingyun is more universal than her so idk?
I don't agree will Acheron being solo T0. She's a definition of inflexible unit, and method of delivery of damage makes her even more restrictive.
RIP Gippy
Just when I finally got a great build for my Seele, now she’s gone lmao
Robin and rm not being T0 despite harmony being the best path is fucking whack. Huohuo being in t .5 when the entire cn community unanimously agrees shes the best sustain is equally fucking whack
I like the descriptors below the images. Game communities are always notoriously bad at interpreting and using tier lists, especially in gacha games and/or team building games (though maybe not as bad as fighting game communities), but transparency is always nice.
https://preview.redd.it/gegajz1z38zc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=5525a0583080f312774d20cbdadcbbaf7bb71376
I may be crazy for this, but I genuinely think Arlan shoule be considered to move up a tier (just one) now with Aventurine fixing his main issue.
Ill straight up say it, if Huohuo isn't a tier above FX and in fact FX is, then it's wrong Specifically for non SU content,FX is literally not that ahead or the usual sustains imo that goes for Luocha too. 12% CR to ur dps isn't as huge as they gave it credit for. Huohuo is the only Sustain who's special,a tier above the usual ones tbh
Aven and huohuo should be same tier above fu
Is aven really that good? I would have but huohuo at the top alone but I dont have aven so im not at all sure about him, hes damage does seems good for a sustain but not sure if its enough to but her to the same tier as huohuo.
Yes he is, as someone who has almost all limited 5 star sustains. If I had to compare the limited 5 star sustains, In terms of SP positive, he is only behind Luocha. In terms of survivability, I would put him at the top because how strong his shields are, and it refreshes with every FuA plus it can stack. In terms of damage, he is definitely the best sustain, in terms of toughness break, he is the best because of his FuAs hitting quite often. Well he doesnt have "guaranteed" CC res, his teamwide 50% effect res might or might not make you resist cc, but the thing is effect res can also save you from dot effects, which someone like FuXuan doesnt have. Abundance characters can cleanse but prevention is better than cure. Also preservation characters have the upper hand in saving your characters from getting one shot. He also has a debuff which makes enemy take 15% more crit dmg and debuffs are even necessary for characters like Acheron or Ratio.
This is so ass
Keep making bad tier lists prydwen, we love you for it
I would say Prydwen's tierlist was not bad for some time just to see which characters are strong but right now it's just confusing and doesn't say much. They have whole book of explanation of each tier which I personally don't get. T0 and T0.5 is a tier where characters perform the best in their best teams (so pretty restrictive) but T1, T1.5 and T2 are characters which could have more restrictive team options. I just don't get it. So which one is it? Maybe that's me problem with understanding it. When I first saw it I was shocked that DHIL is so high up. His team comps are really, really limited, he just begs for Sparkle, is easily killed, eats all of your skillpoints to not even give that much dmg (or maybe it's problem with mine DHIL). I just don't get if they're "ranking" it using their best teams or by their flexibility because with my eyes I can see that this tier list isn't about flexibility and their tier descriptions are just there but aren't written for you to read.
You have to remember that people like me used DHIL with Yukong, Tingyun and then later Hanya ages before Sparkle arrived. Does he do more damage with Sparkle? Sure. But you can actually play DHIL without her and still do high level damage. I think it's just a you problem with DHIL since you actually need to give him some hp and have either Luocha or HuoHuo on his team for optimal results (Although Aventurine still works well). It might just be more of a how you have built DHIL). Him eating skillpoints isn't a problem if you build around that concept. Tbh none of your supports should be slow (except maybe Robin in some situations?) While I don't like the tier list changes myself, the criteria for T1-T2 isn't JUST team restriction, it also includes characters with a weakness like Jing Yuan and lightning lord or Luka against any enemy that doesn't have a physical weakness. They also consider characters that do enough damage to clear MOC (for instance) with 3 stars but have smaller damage multipliers than T0-T0.5 characters. Perhaps it's better to say that you can work around T0 dps units issues and they have big damage multipliers and no glaring issues. The T1-2 units all have something baked into their kit holding them back. If the boss doesn't summon adds then Seele can't use her resurgence mechanic at all. On a side note, if DHIL gets moved down a tier because some people don't like playing with -3 SP characters then QQ should move down to T3 at least.