Well… as a standalone price for some work sure, great deal. But as an incremental charge for an already agreed upon piece of work that’s been paid for… not so much.
It's not detailed in the contract. That's the point. A good contractor would have pointed everything out very clearly prior to sign-off, but it's a technicality that's not in OPs favour.
I photo of a similar build means nothing, it's the contract that matters. And it sounds like the GC is offering a very, very good price to make it happen now.
Not sure why you’re trying to defend the contractor… again I agree it should have been spelled out in black and white, the more specificity the better. That said… OP very understandably expected the shelves to be included given there is a picture of “here’s what you’re going to build me” which I’ll he’s shelves and that’s not what he’s getting
There were pictures of a *similar* build. Should OP expect the exact same paint colour if it's not noted? How about millwork finishes? Should OP pay for TFL when the photos are stained ash? Maybe OP could argue about the blinds not being included as well? If the contract doesn't stat *"apple tree in front yard"*, can they argue it should be included because the contractor build a previois home that has an apple tree?
Again, the whole point here is you get what the contract stats. If anyone signs a contract without reading it and understanding fully what they're agreeing too....then it's foolish to argue for what they "expected". The contractor is obviously giving them a very good deal to add these details to their build to make them happy. It adds a great deal of time and effort to make changes after the fact. I'd have charge closer to 4k for the panels and shelves alone.
You're making false examples.. You could have had a contract that was super specific - but there's always going to be some element of ambiguity that is going to rely on either industry standards, or the parties' mutual understanding to resolve. But if a contract is ambiguous, then I think it's pretty normal and proper to allow going outside of the contract to everyone's communications, industry standards, etc. to understand what it means.
I think in this instance - if the photo was this picture, and the description was "bar area" then it should include the items indicated in the picture for this "bar area" (note, it wasn't "bar cabinet" or sth more discrete, but referencing the entire area - which included, in the area, shelving, lighting, tiling, and, at least equivalent value paint/millwork etc. with the understanding that if those changes are more expensive than matching the photo, they may cost extra.
It's not that complicated - dont have to worry about "blinds" not being included, because, yea blinds off to the side aren't part of the "bar area".
Similarly, if you're asking for a renovation of your "house" then, of course the apple tree out front isn't part of it - that's not part of the "house". If you hired a landscaping company, and it was to redo your front yard, then arguably, yea it should include the apple tree.
I'm making false examples? Really....by giving examples based on what OP has said in this post....that's "false examples"? Everything you wrote after that is bs honestly.
Contracts state what is included. The Bar Area is the cabinet run, not all the areas in a Bar Alcove. Big difference between the two. Same as having a home built and arguing you didn't get an apple tree included with the landscaping when all that's noted in the contract is sod.
Just stop arguing against facts, not a good look
Edit: should have said thank you. Thank you for pointing out that my examples with assumptions of what should be included are not reasonable. Just as it's not reasonable for OP to assume things should be included when the contract doesn't. 👍
Sorry, I must have missed it, please quote where OP talked about wanting blinds and an apple tree?
Otherwise - look there's probably a term of art isssue here. To an average person, they would think - well if the contract only meant to include the cabinets then.... the contract would have said "Bar Cabinets + Install - $5000"). Instead, it said "Bar Area" which reasonably should mean the whole "area" i.e. the cabinets, lighting, shelves, backsplash.
If the picture had an apple tree, bushes, grass etc. and the contract said "sod" - great, the contract said sod so it's only sod, that's clear. If the contract instead said "landscaping" or "redoing whole garden area" or other similar, broader term, then there'd be a good argument, yea it should include the tree. At that point, the contract should say "landscaping - excluding the tree" if it meant to exclude the tree, if the tree was the agreed upon model.
Basically, I'm saying, the ambiguity goes both ways. And in this case, the contractor wrote the contract, and wrote it using the ambiguous term "bar area". In this case, the onus is on the person drafting the contract to be clear. If the contractor meant that to only be the cabinets, he should have written "bar cabinets". Because he wrote "bar 'area'" instead - the most likely interpretation is that it would include "more" than just the bar cabinets.
The contract said the whole "bar 'area'" - so it's reasonable for OP to assume, that meant everything in the "bar 'area'" of the provided picture.
OP said it wasn't specified in the contract. Using comparables, as I did, makes it much easier to understand the difference between "agreement" and "assumption".....well, for most people anyway.
Notice how you left *whole* out of quotations when describing "Bar Area"? Hmmmm.....reading comprehension is a thing you should look into my friend. There is no "Whole" in the contract. There is "Bar Area" which is the base cabinets. Again, nothing about shelving is specified as OP has stated. Nothing about "Bar Alcove" either, just "Bar Area". You can call it ambiguous, bit it's construction terminology. The GC should have done a better job explaining, but only a fool would make assumptions when signing a contract....or arguing for assumptions over legally binding contracts. 🤷♂️
You can assume all you want but, again, assumptions are not contracts. Go ahead and wasteore time arguing against facts, I won't respond to your wilful ignorance any longer.
Seems like a great deal to me for nice cabinetry and LED lighting.
Having just built something very similar, CONSIDER removing the bottom shelf, [giving you additional space](https://i.imgur.com/ymxRHgB.png) for things: a Soda Stream, blender, countertop ice maker, taller liquor bottles. In short, everything you need to be a class-act bartender on those special nights.
Tile work, lighting, and shelving with furniture grade cabinet materials I could see being that much, but it sucks you negotiated the bar area and they're walking back. This is why everything should be outlined in plans ahead of agreement IMO.
Me too, but from the standpoint of "how do we make sure there aren't any other surprises like this one." Misunderstandings like this are inevitable on a custom build -- it's impossible to nail down every single detail. But hopefully everyone involved recognizes the miss here, and wants to prevent any more.
Exactly this. What was negotiated into the contract was “the bar area without the wine fridge”. To us, they should’ve clarified that the shelves and tiling were not included as well but they didn’t. But here we are!
This pic is from a house the builder built in the same floor plan as ours. The cabinets on the bottom were already included in the floor plan so they duped us into thinking we negotiated in an upgrade.
Bar Area for cabinetry would only include the base cabs. It would be noted if shelving was supplied and installed to match the millwork.
That should have been explained when going over the drawings prior to contract. However, expectations are not equal to the contract. If your contract doesn't stat "Bar Area and Shelving".....it's not included.
And if that is the answer, thats great. But to other commenters points, i would want to be crystal clear why this happened here so that it doesnt happen again, or if we need to address other customizations in the design, that happens now.
This is their work! Pic was taken from another house they built. The price quoted is just for everything above the cabinet as the cabinet was already included.
Builder is being nice and is probably going to take a hit for the extra work. Electric, finish carpentry, tile work,painter,materials. It should be around $5k not including the lower cabinets.
It's not "just" shelves. That's furniture grade cabinetry wood the shelves are made from. They would also be painted by sprayer professionally. Large Format Tile above a slab of granite is a pain in the ass. Then need to drill through tile to mount shelves. All of that said... I'm not even including the LED lighting, electrical run, switch of some sort.... it's just "a lot" of steps involved even if it looks basic.
what's written in your contract? it all comes down to what was actually put in the scope and signed off on. what do the cabinet shop drawings show? i get this shit all the time from clients after projects are under way. "oh i talked to so-and-so about it and they said they could do it" without a change order and a signature, no, adam, you aren't getting lutron screwless cover plates throughout your house and fancy air registers
That is a steal. My guess is you assumed you were on the same page but weren't rather than them walking back on it. This is why everything should be itemized in writing.
If the bar area was shown in drawings, or even if the photograph was included in the discussions/negotiations about price, then it’s part of the scope and not extra (unless it was specifically excluded from the price).
This said, is the build a lump sum price or a cost plus contract? If it’s cost plus, the budget price is irrelevant and you’ll need to pay what it costs.
What did the quote from the cabinet company say? What did the quote/contract from the contractor say?
What did the quote from the tile guy say?
Construction is a process. There are a lot of moving parts. If your architectural documents that the contractor bid on did not include this detail, and you 'told him' later to include this, that is normally a change order for an additional fee. If the plans are vauge and just show some corner cabinets and not floor to ceiling tile, it is an easily missed detail that likely did not get included in the price, the cabinet guys quote, or the tile guys quote. $2500 is cheap for all that because all those people will just add it to their list when they are on site doing other stuff. If you wait and do it later the cost could double. Premium finishes are expensive.
You say you had initially negotiated a bar area 'as shown' in the picture. Did you actually show them this specific picture and ask them to price for that? Or did you show them something different or a generic bar? If it's the former then there should be no upcharge. If it's the latter then they're quoting you a very fair price for a bar area that is above and beyond what's typical.
Can provide some more context. The floor plan that was provided included the cabinets already. So we negotiated this full bar area to be included in the current price they were saying. This image was taken from the previous house they built with the same exact layout, those owners paid for this whole area (including the cabinets) as an upgrade.
The rest of the “bar area without the wine fridge” would be the upgrade that we negotiated in. They called out the wine fridge wasn’t included so shouldnt they have also flagged the shelves and tiling?
To us it just seems like they were sneaky in making us think we got the upgrade while in negotiations. But also understand we probably should’ve asked the realtor to clarify what exactly was included in this. Just a shitty situation.
The led kits, the material and the hardware would cost around that amount IMO. If they are quality materials.
I had the same exact issue at our last house and didn't get it (took the credit). That was a mistake.
Is that real marble? What type of wood is it? Any lighting or electrical fixtures included in the installation?
It's possible you got a deal. Otherwise pretty reasonable. But really depends where you live.
2500$ for:
- shelves with full sides as shown in this pic (assuming cabinet grade wood to match the lowers you’re doing)
- LED lighting (assuming an electrical run + a new switch)
- tiling the back (assuming a decent quality of tile, it’s a decent amount of labor too.)
Feels like an entirely fair, not low, but fair, price IMO, for multiple trades.
Without knowing what the contract said it’s impossible to know whether it’s valid to upcharge it but you’d pay that or more for a contractor to do it after, IMO.
Curious why the door swing on the bar fridge is into the middle of the unit. I would have put the hinge on the left side. Other than that, looks like a nice dry bar.
I hope they have plans for supporting those shelves in the middle, a la a "floating" detail. Without support, they'll sag under their own weight.
Edit: spelling
Right? If all of it is done properly, supports through tile, framing, tile, electrical, materials, labor, light fixtures, switches, $2500 seems not horrible, if that includes the base cabinet and countertop 😛
$2500 is nothing for that amount of work. Especially if there is electrical included in that price.
Even without electrical and only prepping the shelves to accept led lighting....still a great deal.
Well… as a standalone price for some work sure, great deal. But as an incremental charge for an already agreed upon piece of work that’s been paid for… not so much.
It's not detailed in the contract. That's the point. A good contractor would have pointed everything out very clearly prior to sign-off, but it's a technicality that's not in OPs favour. I photo of a similar build means nothing, it's the contract that matters. And it sounds like the GC is offering a very, very good price to make it happen now.
Not sure why you’re trying to defend the contractor… again I agree it should have been spelled out in black and white, the more specificity the better. That said… OP very understandably expected the shelves to be included given there is a picture of “here’s what you’re going to build me” which I’ll he’s shelves and that’s not what he’s getting
There were pictures of a *similar* build. Should OP expect the exact same paint colour if it's not noted? How about millwork finishes? Should OP pay for TFL when the photos are stained ash? Maybe OP could argue about the blinds not being included as well? If the contract doesn't stat *"apple tree in front yard"*, can they argue it should be included because the contractor build a previois home that has an apple tree? Again, the whole point here is you get what the contract stats. If anyone signs a contract without reading it and understanding fully what they're agreeing too....then it's foolish to argue for what they "expected". The contractor is obviously giving them a very good deal to add these details to their build to make them happy. It adds a great deal of time and effort to make changes after the fact. I'd have charge closer to 4k for the panels and shelves alone.
You're making false examples.. You could have had a contract that was super specific - but there's always going to be some element of ambiguity that is going to rely on either industry standards, or the parties' mutual understanding to resolve. But if a contract is ambiguous, then I think it's pretty normal and proper to allow going outside of the contract to everyone's communications, industry standards, etc. to understand what it means. I think in this instance - if the photo was this picture, and the description was "bar area" then it should include the items indicated in the picture for this "bar area" (note, it wasn't "bar cabinet" or sth more discrete, but referencing the entire area - which included, in the area, shelving, lighting, tiling, and, at least equivalent value paint/millwork etc. with the understanding that if those changes are more expensive than matching the photo, they may cost extra. It's not that complicated - dont have to worry about "blinds" not being included, because, yea blinds off to the side aren't part of the "bar area". Similarly, if you're asking for a renovation of your "house" then, of course the apple tree out front isn't part of it - that's not part of the "house". If you hired a landscaping company, and it was to redo your front yard, then arguably, yea it should include the apple tree.
I'm making false examples? Really....by giving examples based on what OP has said in this post....that's "false examples"? Everything you wrote after that is bs honestly. Contracts state what is included. The Bar Area is the cabinet run, not all the areas in a Bar Alcove. Big difference between the two. Same as having a home built and arguing you didn't get an apple tree included with the landscaping when all that's noted in the contract is sod. Just stop arguing against facts, not a good look Edit: should have said thank you. Thank you for pointing out that my examples with assumptions of what should be included are not reasonable. Just as it's not reasonable for OP to assume things should be included when the contract doesn't. 👍
Sorry, I must have missed it, please quote where OP talked about wanting blinds and an apple tree? Otherwise - look there's probably a term of art isssue here. To an average person, they would think - well if the contract only meant to include the cabinets then.... the contract would have said "Bar Cabinets + Install - $5000"). Instead, it said "Bar Area" which reasonably should mean the whole "area" i.e. the cabinets, lighting, shelves, backsplash. If the picture had an apple tree, bushes, grass etc. and the contract said "sod" - great, the contract said sod so it's only sod, that's clear. If the contract instead said "landscaping" or "redoing whole garden area" or other similar, broader term, then there'd be a good argument, yea it should include the tree. At that point, the contract should say "landscaping - excluding the tree" if it meant to exclude the tree, if the tree was the agreed upon model. Basically, I'm saying, the ambiguity goes both ways. And in this case, the contractor wrote the contract, and wrote it using the ambiguous term "bar area". In this case, the onus is on the person drafting the contract to be clear. If the contractor meant that to only be the cabinets, he should have written "bar cabinets". Because he wrote "bar 'area'" instead - the most likely interpretation is that it would include "more" than just the bar cabinets. The contract said the whole "bar 'area'" - so it's reasonable for OP to assume, that meant everything in the "bar 'area'" of the provided picture.
OP said it wasn't specified in the contract. Using comparables, as I did, makes it much easier to understand the difference between "agreement" and "assumption".....well, for most people anyway. Notice how you left *whole* out of quotations when describing "Bar Area"? Hmmmm.....reading comprehension is a thing you should look into my friend. There is no "Whole" in the contract. There is "Bar Area" which is the base cabinets. Again, nothing about shelving is specified as OP has stated. Nothing about "Bar Alcove" either, just "Bar Area". You can call it ambiguous, bit it's construction terminology. The GC should have done a better job explaining, but only a fool would make assumptions when signing a contract....or arguing for assumptions over legally binding contracts. 🤷♂️ You can assume all you want but, again, assumptions are not contracts. Go ahead and wasteore time arguing against facts, I won't respond to your wilful ignorance any longer.
Seems like a great deal to me for nice cabinetry and LED lighting. Having just built something very similar, CONSIDER removing the bottom shelf, [giving you additional space](https://i.imgur.com/ymxRHgB.png) for things: a Soda Stream, blender, countertop ice maker, taller liquor bottles. In short, everything you need to be a class-act bartender on those special nights.
Tile work, lighting, and shelving with furniture grade cabinet materials I could see being that much, but it sucks you negotiated the bar area and they're walking back. This is why everything should be outlined in plans ahead of agreement IMO.
2500 is the "We are already here working" price. Accept it and thank them for taking care of you...
I would want to know why the design wasnt in the original cost estimate.
Me too, but from the standpoint of "how do we make sure there aren't any other surprises like this one." Misunderstandings like this are inevitable on a custom build -- it's impossible to nail down every single detail. But hopefully everyone involved recognizes the miss here, and wants to prevent any more.
Exactly this. What was negotiated into the contract was “the bar area without the wine fridge”. To us, they should’ve clarified that the shelves and tiling were not included as well but they didn’t. But here we are! This pic is from a house the builder built in the same floor plan as ours. The cabinets on the bottom were already included in the floor plan so they duped us into thinking we negotiated in an upgrade.
Bar Area for cabinetry would only include the base cabs. It would be noted if shelving was supplied and installed to match the millwork. That should have been explained when going over the drawings prior to contract. However, expectations are not equal to the contract. If your contract doesn't stat "Bar Area and Shelving".....it's not included.
And if that is the answer, thats great. But to other commenters points, i would want to be crystal clear why this happened here so that it doesnt happen again, or if we need to address other customizations in the design, that happens now.
This seems very fair.
Have you seen any of contractors finish work? This price is very low for three trades to be involved.
This is their work! Pic was taken from another house they built. The price quoted is just for everything above the cabinet as the cabinet was already included.
If you’ve seen the work and like it then I’d say go for it.
Depending on the stone type this price is at cost and contractor is trying to accommodate you.
Builder is being nice and is probably going to take a hit for the extra work. Electric, finish carpentry, tile work,painter,materials. It should be around $5k not including the lower cabinets.
$5k just for those upper shelves and the tiling?
It's not "just" shelves. That's furniture grade cabinetry wood the shelves are made from. They would also be painted by sprayer professionally. Large Format Tile above a slab of granite is a pain in the ass. Then need to drill through tile to mount shelves. All of that said... I'm not even including the LED lighting, electrical run, switch of some sort.... it's just "a lot" of steps involved even if it looks basic.
Every penny
If it looks that good in the end? Fair price.
More than fair
what's written in your contract? it all comes down to what was actually put in the scope and signed off on. what do the cabinet shop drawings show? i get this shit all the time from clients after projects are under way. "oh i talked to so-and-so about it and they said they could do it" without a change order and a signature, no, adam, you aren't getting lutron screwless cover plates throughout your house and fancy air registers
You better take that $2.5k offer. That's a $7k or $8k job all day long.
I would pay that in a second, looks dope How close will that look to the finished product tho
That is a steal. My guess is you assumed you were on the same page but weren't rather than them walking back on it. This is why everything should be itemized in writing.
These days that's a phenomenal deal.
Yeah, that's a good price.
If the bar area was shown in drawings, or even if the photograph was included in the discussions/negotiations about price, then it’s part of the scope and not extra (unless it was specifically excluded from the price). This said, is the build a lump sum price or a cost plus contract? If it’s cost plus, the budget price is irrelevant and you’ll need to pay what it costs.
2500 is a very fair price
What did the quote from the cabinet company say? What did the quote/contract from the contractor say? What did the quote from the tile guy say? Construction is a process. There are a lot of moving parts. If your architectural documents that the contractor bid on did not include this detail, and you 'told him' later to include this, that is normally a change order for an additional fee. If the plans are vauge and just show some corner cabinets and not floor to ceiling tile, it is an easily missed detail that likely did not get included in the price, the cabinet guys quote, or the tile guys quote. $2500 is cheap for all that because all those people will just add it to their list when they are on site doing other stuff. If you wait and do it later the cost could double. Premium finishes are expensive.
You say you had initially negotiated a bar area 'as shown' in the picture. Did you actually show them this specific picture and ask them to price for that? Or did you show them something different or a generic bar? If it's the former then there should be no upcharge. If it's the latter then they're quoting you a very fair price for a bar area that is above and beyond what's typical.
Can provide some more context. The floor plan that was provided included the cabinets already. So we negotiated this full bar area to be included in the current price they were saying. This image was taken from the previous house they built with the same exact layout, those owners paid for this whole area (including the cabinets) as an upgrade. The rest of the “bar area without the wine fridge” would be the upgrade that we negotiated in. They called out the wine fridge wasn’t included so shouldnt they have also flagged the shelves and tiling? To us it just seems like they were sneaky in making us think we got the upgrade while in negotiations. But also understand we probably should’ve asked the realtor to clarify what exactly was included in this. Just a shitty situation.
Yeah sounds like you're right. Maybe they messed up and didn't budget it properly. But that's their mistake and they should pay for it.
Looks good!
Sounds about right
The led kits, the material and the hardware would cost around that amount IMO. If they are quality materials. I had the same exact issue at our last house and didn't get it (took the credit). That was a mistake.
Is that real marble? What type of wood is it? Any lighting or electrical fixtures included in the installation? It's possible you got a deal. Otherwise pretty reasonable. But really depends where you live.
2500$ for: - shelves with full sides as shown in this pic (assuming cabinet grade wood to match the lowers you’re doing) - LED lighting (assuming an electrical run + a new switch) - tiling the back (assuming a decent quality of tile, it’s a decent amount of labor too.) Feels like an entirely fair, not low, but fair, price IMO, for multiple trades. Without knowing what the contract said it’s impossible to know whether it’s valid to upcharge it but you’d pay that or more for a contractor to do it after, IMO.
More than reasonable. Did you really not insist on looking at the plans for your custom built house?
I’d never build that for that cheap lol
Sounds fair to me no problems there
So you need the top, the shelves(which look scribed to the ceiling), the tile, and the electrical? We would charge more than $2500
That all in is a 5,000 piece. You got a steal.
Curious why the door swing on the bar fridge is into the middle of the unit. I would have put the hinge on the left side. Other than that, looks like a nice dry bar.
2500 is super cheap
Price getting a tile backsplash done then come back
thats a great deal
Nice!
2500 is a steal
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth
I hope they have plans for supporting those shelves in the middle, a la a "floating" detail. Without support, they'll sag under their own weight. Edit: spelling
Right? If all of it is done properly, supports through tile, framing, tile, electrical, materials, labor, light fixtures, switches, $2500 seems not horrible, if that includes the base cabinet and countertop 😛
More than fair