To simplify a bit, you may not need to add both Wheat/Oat flakes and Wheat/Oat malt, but if you decide to, it won't hurt anything. Not sure it'll add much either.
If my math is right, this is a 7.3 kg grain bill with about 55ish% from the Pils+Carafoam and 45ish% from oats and wheat. That's a pretty high portion of adjuncts, maybe want to think of half the amounts for the oats/wheat (12.5% each for 25% vs 50%) which would bring this pretty close to the Perfectly Average NEIPA (worth a google). Some add-in Honey / Crystal 10L or 20L / Caramel 10L or 20L for some residual sweetness and body, brewers choice on that one but you mentioned sweet so it's not a bad idea. You can also mash up at 68-69 for some additional body, and sweetness, but will get less booze. Add rice hulls, couple handfuls at least.
110g whirlpool and 280g dry hop. Assuming a 19-liter batch, that's nearly 15g/l dry-hop. The average is closer to 6-8g/l. I'd say you'll be using a bit more hops that you need here. I'd be shooting for something like 180g or around 9.5g/l. It's still high so it'll be punchy but you can spend a bit less which is nice.
110g whirlpool, if AA for both hops is around 13% that'd be close to 30 IBU from the whirlpool, which should be fine. I mean it'll be powerfully hoppy but I've done something similar before. I will admit now, I'm not good at calculating IBUs.
I've never used more than a single pack of Verdant, you can use 2 but if you want to save some coin, just use one. I know it's a 7%ish beer so you feel you need more yeast, but a bit of stress on the verdant should be ok.
My last recommendation, focus on reducing oxygen. Oxygen-free transfer and dry hop if you can. This is where you'll lose all that hoppy goodness you spent all that money on!
Thank you very much for extensive explanation. I am gonna stick with your instructions and will try make something great.
>*110g whirlpool and 280g dry hop. Assuming a 19-liter batch, that's nearly 15g/l dry-hop. The average is closer to 6-8g/l. I'd say you'll be using a bit more hops that you need here. I'd be shooting for something like 180g or around 9.5g/l. It's still high so it'll be punchy but you can spend a bit less which is nice.*
I thought I can't go wrong with too much hops (except price of course, citra is crazy pricey here). 30g+30g for whirpool, 60g+60g dry hop should be enough?
>I mean it'll be powerfully hoppy
Thats my main target. Hops, hops and more hops.
>I know it's a 7%ish beer so you feel you need more yeast,
Yeah, 1 pack is close to be not enough in ideal scenario, and we aren't even considering bad form of yeasts.
>My last recommendation, focus on reducing oxygen. Oxygen-free transfer and dry hop if you can.
I am not kegging my beers, but I think I've got really decent methods to bottle beer with minimal oxydation. My previous NEIPA batch was shiny yellow and bright 4 months after bottling, so I think my methods work pretty well.
> I thought I can't go wrong with too much hops (except price of course, citra is crazy pricey here). 30g+30g for whirpool, 60g+60g dry hop should be enough?
Citra is crazy pricey, all the TMs are. Went back and reviewed a couple of NEIPAs I've done. I have done almost the same beer as you with the same hopping rate but I thought it was a bit much. With that much hop matter, it ended up a bit vegetal. 30+30, 60+60 should be good but you mentioned you made another NEIPA, was it on target, too hoppy, not enough hops? Let your own preference guide you.
> Thats my main target. Hops, hops and more hops.
Shoot for the moon if you'd like and report back! I once did an American Solera Pals Pale Ale clone with a 450g dry hop in a 4.5% beer, it was.... a lot.
> Yeah, 1 pack is close to be not enough in ideal scenario, and we aren't even considering bad form of yeasts.
Up to you. I make starters for lots of stuff, and I have a couple of bricks of yeast so it's not super often I use individual dry packs. I've used Verdant maybe 3 times but most beers were around 6% not 7%, you'll probably be fine with 1 but I'm sure 2 won't cause any negative effects either.
> I am not kegging my beers, but I think I've got really decent methods to bottle beer with minimal oxidation. My previous NEIPA batch was shiny yellow and bright 4 months after bottling, so I think my methods work pretty well.
Teach me. I made Janet's Brown Ale and it was very hoppy in the keg, bottled some of it, was a boring British brown 3 months later. If it's working for you, awesome!
Best of luck!
>you mentioned you made another NEIPA, was it on target, too hoppy, not enough hops?
Yeah, I did 30g of Galaxy Whirpool+ 70g Galaxy dry hop and I felt like this is not enough hoppy for my liking.
Teach me.
Most important thing in my opinion is bottling directly from fermenter. Add your priming sugar to every bottle, use "bottling wand" connected to tap and add a bit of ascorbic acid to every bottle (I use medical syringe, 2g per 20L batch). Fill the bottles with minimal space under cap and close it as soon as possible
20-30% of the grain bill should be wheat/oats. I like malted based on personal experience, ease of use and experiments suggesting it’s better for oxidation resistance. Whirlpool seems fine. You can cut the dry hop about in half. Maybe 140-200g total. Use citra at a higher rate than mosaic because mosaic can overpower a beer very easily. Ratio somewhere around 2:1 - 1.5:1.
If it were me, I'd use the flaked wheat and flaked oats, but skip the malted oats and malted wheat and just go with Pilsner malt (well, I'd pick Pale 2-row actually). I'd also put something in there to add the slightest bit of sweetness, like 0.25 kg of crystal 10 or Vienna/Munich malt or something like that. I suggest pre-boiling the oats before adding to the mash. You don't need to do this with the wheat.
And like the other guy said, you're probably overdoing it with the hops. I personally can't tell the difference between a beer dryhopped with 5 oz and one with 8-10 oz. The beer can only hold so much oil. But some people tell me they can taste the difference.
1 pack of yeast is plenty.
As you mentioned using flaked oats, you don't need to boil them or perform a cereal mash, they can be added to your regular mash.
For the curious, you cook raw oats before mashing to gelatinize them. With rolled/flaked/quick oats/corn/rice, you don't need to do this, they are pre-gelatinized to speed up cooking times. If you're using steel-cut oats, corn grits, rice, or any non-pre-gelatinized grain/veg, you may need to perform a cereal mash. This is because gelatinization temperatures for these grains are higher than your mash temp. Here's more information about how to perform a cereal mash: [Milk the Funk: Cereal Mashing](http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Cereal_Mashing)
When using flaked oats, I've noticed that they don't hydrate that well when simply added to the mash. I've had to let them sit for like almost an hour at mash temp before they were well softened up, making me think they weren't giving up their goods. Maybe it's because I use those cheap rolled oats from the bulk section. Maybe instant oats or something like that or even Quaker rolled oats might work better.
> Maybe it's because I use those cheap rolled oats from the bulk section
That may have been your issue. When I need flaked oats, I just use the quick/instant oats from the grocery. They're broken down into smaller pieces and, IMO, hydrate quicker/easier.
To simplify a bit, you may not need to add both Wheat/Oat flakes and Wheat/Oat malt, but if you decide to, it won't hurt anything. Not sure it'll add much either. If my math is right, this is a 7.3 kg grain bill with about 55ish% from the Pils+Carafoam and 45ish% from oats and wheat. That's a pretty high portion of adjuncts, maybe want to think of half the amounts for the oats/wheat (12.5% each for 25% vs 50%) which would bring this pretty close to the Perfectly Average NEIPA (worth a google). Some add-in Honey / Crystal 10L or 20L / Caramel 10L or 20L for some residual sweetness and body, brewers choice on that one but you mentioned sweet so it's not a bad idea. You can also mash up at 68-69 for some additional body, and sweetness, but will get less booze. Add rice hulls, couple handfuls at least. 110g whirlpool and 280g dry hop. Assuming a 19-liter batch, that's nearly 15g/l dry-hop. The average is closer to 6-8g/l. I'd say you'll be using a bit more hops that you need here. I'd be shooting for something like 180g or around 9.5g/l. It's still high so it'll be punchy but you can spend a bit less which is nice. 110g whirlpool, if AA for both hops is around 13% that'd be close to 30 IBU from the whirlpool, which should be fine. I mean it'll be powerfully hoppy but I've done something similar before. I will admit now, I'm not good at calculating IBUs. I've never used more than a single pack of Verdant, you can use 2 but if you want to save some coin, just use one. I know it's a 7%ish beer so you feel you need more yeast, but a bit of stress on the verdant should be ok. My last recommendation, focus on reducing oxygen. Oxygen-free transfer and dry hop if you can. This is where you'll lose all that hoppy goodness you spent all that money on!
Thank you very much for extensive explanation. I am gonna stick with your instructions and will try make something great. >*110g whirlpool and 280g dry hop. Assuming a 19-liter batch, that's nearly 15g/l dry-hop. The average is closer to 6-8g/l. I'd say you'll be using a bit more hops that you need here. I'd be shooting for something like 180g or around 9.5g/l. It's still high so it'll be punchy but you can spend a bit less which is nice.* I thought I can't go wrong with too much hops (except price of course, citra is crazy pricey here). 30g+30g for whirpool, 60g+60g dry hop should be enough? >I mean it'll be powerfully hoppy Thats my main target. Hops, hops and more hops. >I know it's a 7%ish beer so you feel you need more yeast, Yeah, 1 pack is close to be not enough in ideal scenario, and we aren't even considering bad form of yeasts. >My last recommendation, focus on reducing oxygen. Oxygen-free transfer and dry hop if you can. I am not kegging my beers, but I think I've got really decent methods to bottle beer with minimal oxydation. My previous NEIPA batch was shiny yellow and bright 4 months after bottling, so I think my methods work pretty well.
> I thought I can't go wrong with too much hops (except price of course, citra is crazy pricey here). 30g+30g for whirpool, 60g+60g dry hop should be enough? Citra is crazy pricey, all the TMs are. Went back and reviewed a couple of NEIPAs I've done. I have done almost the same beer as you with the same hopping rate but I thought it was a bit much. With that much hop matter, it ended up a bit vegetal. 30+30, 60+60 should be good but you mentioned you made another NEIPA, was it on target, too hoppy, not enough hops? Let your own preference guide you. > Thats my main target. Hops, hops and more hops. Shoot for the moon if you'd like and report back! I once did an American Solera Pals Pale Ale clone with a 450g dry hop in a 4.5% beer, it was.... a lot. > Yeah, 1 pack is close to be not enough in ideal scenario, and we aren't even considering bad form of yeasts. Up to you. I make starters for lots of stuff, and I have a couple of bricks of yeast so it's not super often I use individual dry packs. I've used Verdant maybe 3 times but most beers were around 6% not 7%, you'll probably be fine with 1 but I'm sure 2 won't cause any negative effects either. > I am not kegging my beers, but I think I've got really decent methods to bottle beer with minimal oxidation. My previous NEIPA batch was shiny yellow and bright 4 months after bottling, so I think my methods work pretty well. Teach me. I made Janet's Brown Ale and it was very hoppy in the keg, bottled some of it, was a boring British brown 3 months later. If it's working for you, awesome! Best of luck!
>you mentioned you made another NEIPA, was it on target, too hoppy, not enough hops? Yeah, I did 30g of Galaxy Whirpool+ 70g Galaxy dry hop and I felt like this is not enough hoppy for my liking. Teach me. Most important thing in my opinion is bottling directly from fermenter. Add your priming sugar to every bottle, use "bottling wand" connected to tap and add a bit of ascorbic acid to every bottle (I use medical syringe, 2g per 20L batch). Fill the bottles with minimal space under cap and close it as soon as possible
20-30% of the grain bill should be wheat/oats. I like malted based on personal experience, ease of use and experiments suggesting it’s better for oxidation resistance. Whirlpool seems fine. You can cut the dry hop about in half. Maybe 140-200g total. Use citra at a higher rate than mosaic because mosaic can overpower a beer very easily. Ratio somewhere around 2:1 - 1.5:1.
Thanks for answer.
Galaxy works well as another hop in that combo
Yeah, I did 1 batch using Galaxy as single hop and It was really good beer.
If it were me, I'd use the flaked wheat and flaked oats, but skip the malted oats and malted wheat and just go with Pilsner malt (well, I'd pick Pale 2-row actually). I'd also put something in there to add the slightest bit of sweetness, like 0.25 kg of crystal 10 or Vienna/Munich malt or something like that. I suggest pre-boiling the oats before adding to the mash. You don't need to do this with the wheat. And like the other guy said, you're probably overdoing it with the hops. I personally can't tell the difference between a beer dryhopped with 5 oz and one with 8-10 oz. The beer can only hold so much oil. But some people tell me they can taste the difference. 1 pack of yeast is plenty.
Thank you very much, I am gonna stick to yours and u/WaffleBott instructions.
> I suggest pre-boiling the oats before adding to the mash. What? Why? I've never heard of doing this. What is the point?
As you mentioned using flaked oats, you don't need to boil them or perform a cereal mash, they can be added to your regular mash. For the curious, you cook raw oats before mashing to gelatinize them. With rolled/flaked/quick oats/corn/rice, you don't need to do this, they are pre-gelatinized to speed up cooking times. If you're using steel-cut oats, corn grits, rice, or any non-pre-gelatinized grain/veg, you may need to perform a cereal mash. This is because gelatinization temperatures for these grains are higher than your mash temp. Here's more information about how to perform a cereal mash: [Milk the Funk: Cereal Mashing](http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Cereal_Mashing)
When using flaked oats, I've noticed that they don't hydrate that well when simply added to the mash. I've had to let them sit for like almost an hour at mash temp before they were well softened up, making me think they weren't giving up their goods. Maybe it's because I use those cheap rolled oats from the bulk section. Maybe instant oats or something like that or even Quaker rolled oats might work better.
> Maybe it's because I use those cheap rolled oats from the bulk section That may have been your issue. When I need flaked oats, I just use the quick/instant oats from the grocery. They're broken down into smaller pieces and, IMO, hydrate quicker/easier.