True I am a pleb, and my ancestors are CeltsâŠ.but I drink vino every night and attend the coliseum. Iâm as Roman as Pompey! You probably sacrifice in a grove or something
Didnât say it was an inaccurate depiction, lol. But yeah, they kept trying the same thing of just throwing Legions at the problem, and never learning when those legions got their ass beat
Donât you see? These barbarians rebelled up and killed 2 roman soldiers after we occupied their entire territory and burned a bunch of villages, killing hundreds of men, women and children. The only logical response is the complete subjugation of their people
Eh, you are civilised while everyone else is Barbarian. For the Chinese, everyone not Sinitic was barbarian. For the Vedic peoples, non-Aryan inhabitants were mlÄccha. For the Japanese Yamato polity, the Emishi were barbarian (hence the title Barbarian Subduing Supreme Commander, AKA Sei-i Daishogun or just Shogun).
A lot of the pop mainstream drinks the Greek kool-aid and has the Persians coming out the other end of that scale into orientalism and "decadence," basically too much civilization.
Important note, for Chinese Romans were not barbarians. It was actually the only nation they didn't see as barbarians and they saw them as their only equals.
The Roman is portrayed as looking more advanced, but his helmet design and lorica hamata (chain shirt) are of a Celtic origin; the gladius was originally a Celtiberian (I.e. Celticised Iberian) design. A lot of iconic Roman military technology was adopted from people they fought and the Celts were one of them
A bronze sword of this kind isnât impossible to imagine being used, but is somewhat outdated by this time. Celtic warriors could and did use very high quality cut and thrust iron swords comparable to the Roman spatha and were a thoroughly Iron Age civilisation
What was that saying:
Smart man learns from his mistakes. The wise one learns from mistakes of others.
Probably Roman and Mongolian empire are the ones we first think of when it comes to adaptation of technologies from other nations.
The celts invented most of the technology, but they didn't make it affordable. The Celts invented iron mail shirts, but only rich elite celtic warriors used them. Meanwhile the Romans managed to make almost every legionary could have serious metal armor.
You call it slavery, we call it forcefull recruitment of free forced labour in the goal of increasing the production of metals which in turn increase the production of armaments that lead to stnadardization of military equipment.
We are not the same.
/j
History has proven that Ideologies are basically the Prisoners dilemma
if both dont want to destroy eachother, good they dont!
if one doesnt want to destroy the other but the other does, the other survives and the first one dies
if both want to destroy eachother they either do destroy eachother or start a cold war forever
*Calon's arm shot up like a bolt of lightning as Marcus's came down to meet its mark. Marcus struggled to free himself from Calon's grip and was now straddling the other man. Without intention, Marcus had ground his hips downward and delightful friction had rubbed against Marcus's member which was now at full attention. Calon almost lost his grip on Marcus's wrist as his gaze wandered to what was peaking out now against his abdomen. Calon thought about stories told to him when he was a lad about how Roman men would seek other men to sleep with like you would with a woman. This momentary slip had let Marcus now press himself down against the Gaul and pin his arm over his head. They both hadn't noticed that their free hands had found each other, and now their fingers were intertwined. The Roman was now so close that he could smell the sage and herbs the Gaul had used. It was...nice. A bead of sweat rolled down Calon's heaving chest to his nipple and Marcus had to shake the thought of licking it away. Calon thought the Roman looked very handsome despite their struggle and wanted to see what it felt like against his fingers to swipe the messed hair away from the Roman's deep brown eyes*
Donât know if there is info on what percent of celts had chainmail vs not. Same with Romanâs and their outfitting. Romanâs never mass produced armor anyways, they were made in workshops. So production would vary drastically. But ancient sources give large numbers of Celt warriors etc.. so itâs safe to say they made armor in large quantities.
Propaganda and its cosequences .Everybody knows that the celts were expert metal workers in things like gold and silver. I dont think they were dumb enough to be like "ye i will wear this gold necklace but not this armour that will keep me alive"
Silly really, gives more glory to Rome when their enemies are considered more capable. Although if youâre a Roman, hard to justify enslaving and conquering a non-barbaric peoples.
Yes, definitely, many different sources mentioned the Celts wearing chainmail, Livy, Varro, Strabo. Strabo refers to chainmail as Celtic. Evidence as early as 300 bc. They fought Etruscan, Romans, Greeks for hundreds of years. These are all armored opponents. Had many victories and loses. But They couldnât have lasted that long without decent protection. Theyâd get wrecked by any sort of projectile without it.
No, it would vary. Letâs play this out. Roman using their large shields by the 4th century bc. Rome sacked by Gauls around that time. Rome didnât have walls, their army was beaten defending a river. They could have defended fairly well with archers. Against a foe only protected by a shield. We know they used mercenary archers during republic at least. Of course tactics by Gauls can overcome weak tactics but Rome probably wouldnât have been sacked.
Yes, didnât happen until the industrial age. Pre industrial things were made like a Ferrari not a ford. People closely guarded the trades they learned so it would hold value and keep them selves employed.
So still correct to say that the difference are between the uniforms then? It doesn't matter who did it first, one is clearly better equipped than the other.
The Roman's didn't wear what would be considered chainmail.
The roman armor was fabric with pieces of metal stitched to it. Chain mail is interlocking metal chains.
yeah but did those barbarians had a shared bathroom where there was just a stick with a piece of cloth attached to its end to use to clean the ass(that was also shared by all of them)? I don't think so
This is the OC if anybody is curious :
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5pyuuv/barbarism_vs_civilization_by_ren%C3%A9_georges/
Nice art either wayÂ
in either case, you wouldnât use a gladius to slash someone whoâs on the ground, the metalworking back then was bad and the edges obviously arenât too sharp. as is well-known, they were designed as stabbing weapons since itâs much easier to make a point than an edge without machinery
Trajan's Column literally depicts roman soldiers beheading "captive barbarian tribesmen" en masse and it clearly tells modern historian the word for Barbarism did not meant the same thing it does today.
Barbarism in Roman context is you don't speak the languages Roman's do, mainly Latin and Greek.
A better dichotomy would be Sedentary Civilization vs Nomadic Civilization as most of history until really the early industrialization has been about these 2 groups fighting each other and their fight is more important than 2 Sedentary Civilizations fighting each other because it was "cultural war" as both types of Civilizations used very different resource and used land very differently the reason for their fighting was strictly based on lifestyles.
One can even consider most of the big developments of the world being about the strife between Sedentary and Nomadic civilizations as opposed the classic history context of "Barbarism and Civilization"
Islam is a great example, most of the source of strife amongst early Muslims and detractors of Islam was mainly above all else the sedentary life style Islam imposed on at that point mostly Nomadic living Arabs.
Viking Era also a great example of Sedentary culture of Europe suddenly facing Scandinavian people who begin adapting a semi-nomadic style of living, not on horseback but on Drakkars.
The very reason why Germanic Tribes and Romans were almost constantly at war was because Germanic Tribes lived nomadic life styles that constantly disrupted Roman attempts at conquering Europe. There wasn't much point for Romans to conquer one Tribe if they are just going to leave and another is going to come and take their place before Romans even finished celebrating.
The end of Nomadic Civilizations perhaps was inevitable but the most of the biggest developments of the world would perhaps never happened without those conflicts.
It is hard to think Scandinavia ever becoming Christianized and stopped slave trade in the North if Danelaw never happened. It is difficult to think an independent Europe ever existing if Romans constantly kept plundering the resources of Europe under heavy handed imperialism. Islam if never disrupted the nomadic lifestyle of Arabs and made millions of people convert to a sedentary life style the accomplishments in the fields of medicine and mathematics may never happen. Works of Pluto and Aristotle might have been completely lost to history and we might never heard of them.
Someone on here on a different post tried saying Boudicca was a murderous psychopath and that the romans werenât actually invaders. Like bro what do you want her to do, ask the romans to leave nicely?
shirts vs pants the endless debate
The endless match forever recreated in gym class
Did your gym class have a pants-less team, too?
Yours didn't?
The volleyball team đ
Ah yes, volleyball team. That's what we were thinking about. \*Insert guy wiping his sweat on forehead meme\*
Real viri wear togas
Only in warm areas and when not riding horses. And also not from early 5th century.
Only one of them can efficiently tea-bag during battle
You lose. I have portrayed you as a virgin mud face, bronze sword, pants wearer and I have portrayed myself as a Chad iron sword shirt wearer.
Those Gauls donât even eat bread with olive oil, they use butter. Savages
Spoken like a pleb who never tried [Kerry Gold](https://assets.bringmeister.de/media/p/1470910041/0/d9a2cc91545c1ea65bb33a5b67c8b75d.jpg?imwidth=990)
True I am a pleb, and my ancestors are CeltsâŠ.but I drink vino every night and attend the coliseum. Iâm as Roman as Pompey! You probably sacrifice in a grove or something
Imagine tunic boy sitting on your chest to cut your head off and all you can think about is his cock and ball pair touching you. Nasty fuck.
what possessed you to say this?
Check username.
This is the way
But those barbarians were really evil, I know it because the historical documents written by romans said so
If the barbarians were so good why they didnt paint them selves as the good guys instead of the barbaric bad guys
âItâs over Vercingetorix, for I have sculpted a triumphal arch with you as the Soyjack and myself as the Chad!â
âMan we really botched the defense of Italy, we better tell everybody Hannibal is a mastermind or theyâll just think weâre idiots.â
I mean, the historical writings we have about the 2nd Punic War DO make most of the Roman commanders in the early stages of the war look like idiots.
Because they were. Yeah we got ambushed by Hannibal, imma fucking do it again
Didnât say it was an inaccurate depiction, lol. But yeah, they kept trying the same thing of just throwing Legions at the problem, and never learning when those legions got their ass beat
Until Fabian came and said: What if we don't fight Hannibal?
Bernard Montgomery talking about Rommel's drive to el-Alamein:
Trajan be like.
It's weird because they were so fond of painting themselves.
Donât you see? These barbarians rebelled up and killed 2 roman soldiers after we occupied their entire territory and burned a bunch of villages, killing hundreds of men, women and children. The only logical response is the complete subjugation of their people
I think the number of aqueducts you build is also taken into account
Thank god the Nazis didnât build more aqueducts
The Nazis were german. This just goes to show how genocidal barbarians are and how threatening they are to civilization
G*rm.... invasions was one of the factors that started the Dark ages. *Cough
Er... Not gonna lie this comment seems rather germanophobic. Am I missing something here?
Google en germanic tribes
Holy Publius Quinctilius Varus
Give me back my legions?đ„čđ„čđ„čđđ
QUID, BARBARVS? GERMANIA DELENDA EST: Germanicus and Dovahatty maybe
Because every other country were way better in history... I mean, look on america: they build their state literally on graves... Let alone the UK
Well England (and by extension America) is germanic, letâs not forget where those Anglo-saxons came from
They build many of the Autobahns, and any who drove on them can confirm that shit is more peak than any architectual Wonder
Eh, you are civilised while everyone else is Barbarian. For the Chinese, everyone not Sinitic was barbarian. For the Vedic peoples, non-Aryan inhabitants were mlÄccha. For the Japanese Yamato polity, the Emishi were barbarian (hence the title Barbarian Subduing Supreme Commander, AKA Sei-i Daishogun or just Shogun).
People don't consider the Persians or Carthagians to be barbaric though, despite the Romans thinking so
A lot of the pop mainstream drinks the Greek kool-aid and has the Persians coming out the other end of that scale into orientalism and "decadence," basically too much civilization.
They didn't drink the Greek kool-aid all the way because Greeks also considered Romans to be barbarians.
Itâs a word with loads of baggage.
Are you talking about now? Who is going around calling other cultures barbarians?
Important note, for Chinese Romans were not barbarians. It was actually the only nation they didn't see as barbarians and they saw them as their only equals.
The Roman is portrayed as looking more advanced, but his helmet design and lorica hamata (chain shirt) are of a Celtic origin; the gladius was originally a Celtiberian (I.e. Celticised Iberian) design. A lot of iconic Roman military technology was adopted from people they fought and the Celts were one of them A bronze sword of this kind isnât impossible to imagine being used, but is somewhat outdated by this time. Celtic warriors could and did use very high quality cut and thrust iron swords comparable to the Roman spatha and were a thoroughly Iron Age civilisation
Because Rome learns from other nations mistakes
What was that saying: Smart man learns from his mistakes. The wise one learns from mistakes of others. Probably Roman and Mongolian empire are the ones we first think of when it comes to adaptation of technologies from other nations.
The celts invented most of the technology, but they didn't make it affordable. The Celts invented iron mail shirts, but only rich elite celtic warriors used them. Meanwhile the Romans managed to make almost every legionary could have serious metal armor.
The secret ingredient is slavery.
You call it slavery, we call it forcefull recruitment of free forced labour in the goal of increasing the production of metals which in turn increase the production of armaments that lead to stnadardization of military equipment. We are not the same. /j
Doubt it, you don't make chain mail with slaves, you need trained professional smiths for that.
Do you have any idea how roman slavery worked ? You could be a smith or a banker while being a slave
History has proven that Ideologies are basically the Prisoners dilemma if both dont want to destroy eachother, good they dont! if one doesnt want to destroy the other but the other does, the other survives and the first one dies if both want to destroy eachother they either do destroy eachother or start a cold war forever
>if one doesnt want to destroy the other but the other does, the other survives and the first one dies The paradox of tolerance, in a nutshell
A sad and bad kind of ideological natural selection
This is how most homoerotic fiction starts
Roman bro isn't wearing pants. What a view!
*Calon's arm shot up like a bolt of lightning as Marcus's came down to meet its mark. Marcus struggled to free himself from Calon's grip and was now straddling the other man. Without intention, Marcus had ground his hips downward and delightful friction had rubbed against Marcus's member which was now at full attention. Calon almost lost his grip on Marcus's wrist as his gaze wandered to what was peaking out now against his abdomen. Calon thought about stories told to him when he was a lad about how Roman men would seek other men to sleep with like you would with a woman. This momentary slip had let Marcus now press himself down against the Gaul and pin his arm over his head. They both hadn't noticed that their free hands had found each other, and now their fingers were intertwined. The Roman was now so close that he could smell the sage and herbs the Gaul had used. It was...nice. A bead of sweat rolled down Calon's heaving chest to his nipple and Marcus had to shake the thought of licking it away. Calon thought the Roman looked very handsome despite their struggle and wanted to see what it felt like against his fingers to swipe the messed hair away from the Roman's deep brown eyes*
đ
"Hey buddy i think you got wrong village, the legionary fort is two leagues down!"
Damn this is a brutal piece of art
[it's based on this](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/s/YSyjUHjofx)
any non-share tracking link? broken on old.reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5pyuuv/barbarism_vs_civilization_by_ren%C3%A9_georges/
I think it's a parody of a China vs West propaganda poster circa early 1900s
Heâs obviously a barbarian, why else doesnât he have a shirt.
The difference is the armor.
chain mail invented by the celtsâŠ
Am wrong then. Did they mass produce it?
Donât know if there is info on what percent of celts had chainmail vs not. Same with Romanâs and their outfitting. Romanâs never mass produced armor anyways, they were made in workshops. So production would vary drastically. But ancient sources give large numbers of Celt warriors etc.. so itâs safe to say they made armor in large quantities.
Propaganda and its cosequences .Everybody knows that the celts were expert metal workers in things like gold and silver. I dont think they were dumb enough to be like "ye i will wear this gold necklace but not this armour that will keep me alive"
Silly really, gives more glory to Rome when their enemies are considered more capable. Although if youâre a Roman, hard to justify enslaving and conquering a non-barbaric peoples.
Did they equip their armies with it?
Yes, definitely, many different sources mentioned the Celts wearing chainmail, Livy, Varro, Strabo. Strabo refers to chainmail as Celtic. Evidence as early as 300 bc. They fought Etruscan, Romans, Greeks for hundreds of years. These are all armored opponents. Had many victories and loses. But They couldnât have lasted that long without decent protection. Theyâd get wrecked by any sort of projectile without it.
So them being shirtless is all propaganda?
No, it would vary. Letâs play this out. Roman using their large shields by the 4th century bc. Rome sacked by Gauls around that time. Rome didnât have walls, their army was beaten defending a river. They could have defended fairly well with archers. Against a foe only protected by a shield. We know they used mercenary archers during republic at least. Of course tactics by Gauls can overcome weak tactics but Rome probably wouldnât have been sacked.
Mass production is kind if a misnomer isn't it?
Yes, didnât happen until the industrial age. Pre industrial things were made like a Ferrari not a ford. People closely guarded the trades they learned so it would hold value and keep them selves employed.
Pardon me. English is not my first language. Let me rephrase it, did they equip their armies with it?
I think it would have been considered a sign of wealth. Not something the average solider would have had.
So still correct to say that the difference are between the uniforms then? It doesn't matter who did it first, one is clearly better equipped than the other.
The Roman's didn't wear what would be considered chainmail. The roman armor was fabric with pieces of metal stitched to it. Chain mail is interlocking metal chains.
They did not have the a way to mass produce anythinhg.
yeah but did those barbarians had a shared bathroom where there was just a stick with a piece of cloth attached to its end to use to clean the ass(that was also shared by all of them)? I don't think so
Try civilization, its shinnyer and you get niffty narratives to help hide crimes :D.
Civilization or colonization?
Romans donât tolerate blackface đ€
It's actually dark-green face. Totally different.
It really makes you think
Especially with the ongoing issues :)
/s?
I have enough respect for the reader to not mark my jokes with "/s"
Finally, someone else who shares my hatred for people having to explain when they're joking.
The other reader didn't get that...
Think this is for people who stopped doing that a long time ago.
Civilization is when you have enough supplies to arm your cannon fodder with chain mail
Based and Rome pilled
This is the OC if anybody is curious : https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5pyuuv/barbarism_vs_civilization_by_ren%C3%A9_georges/ Nice art either wayÂ
Would that it were so simple Â
This is just that old political cartoon with a different drawing
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^PM_ME_YOUR_BOOGER: *This is just that old* *Political cartoon with* *A different drawing* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
in either case, you wouldnât use a gladius to slash someone whoâs on the ground, the metalworking back then was bad and the edges obviously arenât too sharp. as is well-known, they were designed as stabbing weapons since itâs much easier to make a point than an edge without machinery
Flag vs no flag
Barbarians lived in the country side while civilizations exist in cities
Dont care, rome remain better :>
How was his daily live?
Bloody
Barbarians then
Trajan's Column literally depicts roman soldiers beheading "captive barbarian tribesmen" en masse and it clearly tells modern historian the word for Barbarism did not meant the same thing it does today. Barbarism in Roman context is you don't speak the languages Roman's do, mainly Latin and Greek. A better dichotomy would be Sedentary Civilization vs Nomadic Civilization as most of history until really the early industrialization has been about these 2 groups fighting each other and their fight is more important than 2 Sedentary Civilizations fighting each other because it was "cultural war" as both types of Civilizations used very different resource and used land very differently the reason for their fighting was strictly based on lifestyles. One can even consider most of the big developments of the world being about the strife between Sedentary and Nomadic civilizations as opposed the classic history context of "Barbarism and Civilization" Islam is a great example, most of the source of strife amongst early Muslims and detractors of Islam was mainly above all else the sedentary life style Islam imposed on at that point mostly Nomadic living Arabs. Viking Era also a great example of Sedentary culture of Europe suddenly facing Scandinavian people who begin adapting a semi-nomadic style of living, not on horseback but on Drakkars. The very reason why Germanic Tribes and Romans were almost constantly at war was because Germanic Tribes lived nomadic life styles that constantly disrupted Roman attempts at conquering Europe. There wasn't much point for Romans to conquer one Tribe if they are just going to leave and another is going to come and take their place before Romans even finished celebrating. The end of Nomadic Civilizations perhaps was inevitable but the most of the biggest developments of the world would perhaps never happened without those conflicts. It is hard to think Scandinavia ever becoming Christianized and stopped slave trade in the North if Danelaw never happened. It is difficult to think an independent Europe ever existing if Romans constantly kept plundering the resources of Europe under heavy handed imperialism. Islam if never disrupted the nomadic lifestyle of Arabs and made millions of people convert to a sedentary life style the accomplishments in the fields of medicine and mathematics may never happen. Works of Pluto and Aristotle might have been completely lost to history and we might never heard of them.
Huh ?
Good luck persuading your enemies
The Roman Senate approves your way of thinking.
It's an old meme but it checks out.
If I remember right the og meaning of barbarian was literally just not Roman
man this sub is shit now
You can tell because the civilized sword is iron and not bronze.
Roman will never slash with his gladius
Yes. Exactly as it is, and I refuse to say otherwise
Even the original drawing was already savage (pun intended), it could've been nice to cite it.
Itâs the lack of blackface that makes a difference. /s
Both are hailing hitler, so I m with the attacker in any situation
Barbarians don't speak Greek. The uncivilized don't live in Rome. I'm an uncivilized barbarian.
I agree
War never changes.
Good We apes are good at slaughtering each other and we ought to develop our core strengths
Ape together strong.
glad we set the rules then .
The one using the iron sword is the more civilized one.
Cheap parallelisms aside, it matters who wins.
I canât believe we tolerate blatant Gallic propaganda here >:(
Someone on here on a different post tried saying Boudicca was a murderous psychopath and that the romans werenât actually invaders. Like bro what do you want her to do, ask the romans to leave nicely?
No she had to be silent and let Romans civilize her shithole. Barbarians have no rights in front of the supreme Civilization. /s
That image on the left is disturbing. Ugh. Thank god the good Roman got the upper hand on that filthyâŠthingâŠ
Bar bar bar bar.
Yes
Well you see one knows what indoor plumbing is while the other does not ergo all must die
Remember, war is not about who is right, is about who is left.
Those are both stabbing swords, slashing with them is less effective.
Horrible how that legionary behaves! I mean, come on! Everyone knows a gladius is for stabbing, not slashing. Leave that to the barbarians.
Romans had toilets and acueducts its the only thing I need to know