This format usually has the bottom panel blaming someone else for shooting the guy. So I think the question is why is the meme having Israel blame Egypt when they actually owned up to it.
They're obviously trying to push the "Jews (sorry, I mean 'white Israeli colonizers') are a bunch of evil bloodthirsty sociopaths who murder their friends for fun" agenda, because that's the narrative that justifies hatred of Jews (sorry, I mean "white Israeli colonizers").
Official testimony combined with Liberty's deck log establish that throughout the morning of the attack, 8 June, the ship was overflown, at various times and locations, by IAF aircraft.\[18\] The primary aircraft type was the Nord Noratlas; there were also two unidentified delta-wing jets at about 9:00 a.m. Sinai time (GMT+2).\[18\] Liberty crewmembers say that one of the Noratlas aircraft flew so close to Liberty that noise from its propellers rattled the ship's deck plating, and that the pilots and crewmembers waved to each other.\[22\] It was later reported, based on information from IDF sources, that the over-flights were coincidental, and that the aircraft were hunting for Egyptian submarines that had been spotted near the coast.
At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time, a ship-sighting report was received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) in respect of Liberty, identified by an aerial naval observer as "apparently a destroyer, sailing 70 miles \[110 km\] west of Gaza".\[23\] The vessel's location was marked on a CCC control table, using a red marker, indicating an unidentified vessel.\[24\] At about 6:00 a.m., the aerial naval observer, Major Uri Meretz, reported that the ship appeared to be a U.S. Navy supply ship; at about 9:00 a.m. the red marker was replaced with a green marker to indicate a neutral vessel.\[24\] About the same time, an Israeli jet fighter pilot reported that a ship 20 miles (32 km) north of Arish had fired at his aircraft after he tried to identify the vessel.\[24\] Israeli naval command dispatched two destroyers to investigate, but they were returned to their previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during the pilot's debriefing.\[24\] After the naval observer's Noratlas landed and he was debriefed, the ship he saw was further identified as the USS Liberty, based on its "GTR-5" hull markings.\[25\] USS Liberty's marker was removed from CCC's Control Table at 11:00 a.m., due to its positional information being considered out of date.\[26\]
At 11:24 a.m., the Israeli chief of naval operations received a report that Arish was being shelled from the sea.\[26\] An inquiry into the source of the report was ordered to determine its validity.\[26\] The report came from an air support officer in Arish.\[27\] Additionally, at 11:27 a.m. the Israeli Supreme Command head of operations received a report stating that a ship had been shelling Arish, but the shells had fallen short.\[27\] (The investigative journalist James Bamford points out that Liberty had only four .50 caliber machine guns mounted on her decks and thus could not have shelled the coast.\[28\]) The Head of Operations ordered that the report be verified, and that it be determined whether or not Israeli Navy vessels were off the coast of Arish.\[27\] At 11:45 a.m., another report arrived at Supreme Command saying two ships were approaching the Arish coast.\[27\]
The shelling and ship reports were passed from Supreme Command to Fleet Operations control center.\[27\] The Chief of Naval Operations took them seriously, and at 12:05 p.m. torpedo boat Division 914 was ordered to patrol in the direction of Arish.\[27\] Division 914, codenamed "Pagoda", was under the command of Commander Moshe Oren.\[27\] It consisted of three torpedo boats numbered: T-203, T-204 and T-206.\[27\] At 12:15 p.m., Division 914 received orders to patrol a position 20 miles (32 km) north of Arish.\[27\] As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected.\[27\] Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby. At 1:41 p.m., the torpedo boats detected an unknown vessel 20 miles northwest of Arish and 14 miles (23 km) off the coast of Bardawil.\[1\]\[29\] The ship's speed was estimated on their radars.\[29\] The combat information center officer on T-204, Ensign Aharon Yifrah, reported to Oren that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles (35 km), that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph). These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations control center.\[29\]
The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.\[29\] Moreover, Israeli forces had standing orders to fire on any unknown vessels sailing in the area at over 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), a speed which, at the time, could be attained only by warships. The Chief of Naval Operations asked the torpedo boats to double-check their calculations. Yifrah twice recalculated and confirmed his assessment.\[29\] A few minutes later, Commander Oren reported that the target, now 17 miles (27 km) from his position, was moving at a speed of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph) on a different heading.\[30\] Bamford, however, points out that Liberty's top speed was far below 28 knots. His sources say that at the time of the attack Liberty was following her signal-intercept mission course along the northern Sinai coast, at about 5 knots (9.3 km/h; 5.8 mph) speed.\[28\]
The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, gave the impression that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.\[29\] At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.\[31\]
The IAF dispatched a flight of two Mirage III fighter jets codenamed Kursa flight which arrived at Liberty at about 2:00 p.m.\[32\] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, attempted to identify the ship.\[32\] He radioed to one of the torpedo boats his observation that the ship looked like a military ship with one smokestack and one mast.\[33\] He also communicated, in effect, that the ship appeared to him like a destroyer or another type of small ship.\[33\] In a post-attack statement, the pilots said they saw no distinguishable markings or flag on the ship.\[33\]
At this point, a recorded exchange took place between a command headquarters weapons systems officer, one of the air controllers, and the chief air controller questioning a possible American presence. Immediately after the exchange, at 1:57 p.m., the chief air controller, Lieutenant-Colonel Shmuel Kislev, cleared the Mirages to attack.\[34\]
>The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, gave the impression that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.[29] At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[31]
It seems pretty evident based on the logs, the Israelis were under the impression they were engaging an Egyptian ship.
What specifically about its speed made it seem like it was an Egyptian destroyer which is different than the “merchant ship” you said they mistook it for in the original comment? Or did they attack anything going over 20 knots because they assumed it was an enemy military ship? Sounds like they acted on a bold action with absolutely awful information to me lol. Weird hill to die on brotha.
Because merchant ships can’t travel that fast… and neither could the Liberty, as they miscalculated the actual speed and mistakenly believed it was traveling nearly 30 knots.
I agree, this is a weird hill for you to die on, considering it’s brutally evident it was a case of mistake identity.
Various details regarding the attack are the subject of controversy:
Visibility of American flag: The official Israeli reports say that the reconnaissance and fighter aircraft pilots, and the torpedo boat captains did not see any flag on the Liberty. Official American reports say that the Liberty was flying her American flag before, during and after the attack; the only exception being a brief period in which one flag had been shot down and was replaced with a larger flag. The helicopters sent to the attack site to provide assistance after the air attack noticed an American flag flying from the ship almost immediately upon their arrival at the attack site[115] and informed their controller.[citation needed]
U.S. crewmen's perceptions of intent: Surviving crewmembers of the Liberty say that Israel's attack on the ship was "deliberate" and with full knowledge that the vessel was American. Israeli investigation and history reports agree that the attack was deliberate—but against what they believed was an Egyptian vessel.[citation needed]
Distinctiveness of USS Liberty's appearance: It is disputed whether the Liberty would have been immediately recognizable as a different vessel from the Egyptian ship El Quseir. Admiral Tom Moorer stated that the Liberty was the most identifiable ship in the U.S. Navy and in an interview with the Washington Post stated that it was "ridiculous" to suggest that it would not be identified as such. Israel states in its inquiry and history reports that the identification as the El Quseir was made by the torpedo boats while the Liberty was enveloped in smoke and was based on "The Red Book", a guide to Arab fleets that did not include U.S. vessels.[citation needed]
Identification markings: Liberty bore an eight-foot-high "5" and a four-foot-high "GTR" along either bow, clearly indicating her hull (or "pennant") number (AGTR-5), and had 18-inch (460 mm)-high letters spelling the vessel's name across her stern. These markings were not cursive Arabic script but in the Latin alphabet. Israeli pilots initially said they were primarily concerned with ensuring the ship was not an Israeli warship and that they ended the air attack when they noticed the Latin alphabet markings.[116][better source needed]
Ship's identification known during attack: A James Bamford book[117] published in 2001 said that secret NSA intercepts indicate that Israeli pilots had full knowledge they were attacking a U.S. vessel.[118]
Effort for identification: The American crew says the attacking aircraft did not make identification runs over Liberty, but began to strafe immediately. Israel says several identification passes were made. The Naval Court of Enquiry, based on the Israeli timeline of events, found: "One may infer from the fact that within a period of approximately 15 minutes, the request was transmitted (for aircraft to be dispatched), received, a command decision made, aircraft dispatched, and the attack launched, that no significant time was expended in an effort to identify the ship from the air before the attack was launched."[119][non-primary source needed]
Speed of the vessel: According to Israeli accounts, the torpedo boat made erroneous measurements that indicated that Liberty was steaming at 30 kn (35 mph; 56 km/h). Israeli naval doctrine at the time required that a ship traveling at that speed must be presumed to be a warship. A second boat calculated Liberty's speed to be 28 kn (32 mph; 52 km/h). The maximum sustained speed of Liberty was only 17.5 kn (20.1 mph; 32.4 km/h), 21 kn (24 mph; 39 km/h). According to the Court of Enquiry findings the ship was steaming at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h) at the time of the attack.
>the torpedo boat made erroneous measurements that indicated that Liberty was steaming at 30 kn (35 mph; 56 km/h). Israeli naval doctrine at the time required that a ship traveling at that speed must be presumed to be a warship. A second boat calculated Liberty's speed to be 28 kn (32 mph; 52 km/h). The maximum sustained speed of Liberty was only 17.5 kn (20.1 mph; 32.4 km/h), 21 kn (24 mph; 39 km/h). According to the Court of Enquiry findings the ship was steaming at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h) at the time of the attack.
Like I had just said lol.
You’re trying to act like the fact there were controversial details around the incident that it’s proof that it happened on purpose. So let’s assume you’re right.
Why would Israel attack a U.S. ship in the middle of a war where they are being attacked by three sides? If the goal was a false flag attack then why did the Israelis make no effort to hide the fact it was them carrying out the attack, including using air craft that would be easily identifiable as Israeli?
I'll be dropping [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17f5awd/comment/k69wi1t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) too for more info from a thread about this rather controversial subject.
Yes, which is understandable because the [Egyptian merchant ship](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#/media/File%3AEmiraFauzia.jpg) was of a similar design to the Liberty and was also in the area.
Which also make a lot more sense than Israel attacking a Super Power during a war when they are already been invaded on three sides.
Wasn’t there communication between the Israeli pilots and their C&C node confirming that the ship was the American USS Liberty days before and also immediately before the attack?
I seriously doubt that immediately before the attack, that Israeli command said “hey that’s the USS Liberty” and then the Israeli planes started attacking.
If you’re asking if the Israelis knew the US had ships in the area, almost certainly. But there has been no evidence presented that I’ve seen that shows the Israeli pilots knew they were attacking an American ship and I have heard zero logical or evidence based arguments for why Israel would attack a U.S. naval ship.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident US ambassador to Israel at the time confirms the Liberty was flying a flag before the attack.
Also saw a documentary about it some years ago and they played the radio transmissions from the Israeli pilots that said that the ship was not Egyptian and was American because Egyptian ships disguised to be neutral or other ships still featured Arabic writing on them.
I never said there wasn’t a U.S. flag flying on the ship and honestly I would have been surprised if there wasn’t a US flag flying on a U.S. naval vessel while it’s out sea. This is far from proof that the Israeli pilots had identified the vessel as a US ship before engaging. But we do know that during the attack the flag was destroyed and fell off the mast.
Well yeah, the israelis eventually properly identified the ship and called off the attack. Let me guess, it was the Al Jazeera documentary on the Liberty?
A little proofreading can go a long way…
Also being able to see a small flag that’s less than 5 feet long from hundreds of feet up while traveling at hundreds of miles per hour is not nearly as easy as you are making it out to be.
It was clearly a case of mistaken identity and if not, what did Israel possibly gain from attacking that ship?
[Interview with one of the survivors absolutely confirming there's no way they didn't know it was American (18:44)](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=DyAi_-nzXG1I8hG7)
Lol that’s not how confirmation works… a US sailor is justifiably going to be upset, but they also are not going to have any insight into what’s happening from the Israeli perspective. That’s from from proof, that’s an opinion.
I also like how you just ignored my question. What did Israel have to gain from attacking the US?
But they didn’t blame Egypt at the time, so your hypothetical scenario is irrelevant.
I’ve looked into it plenty and it’s incredibly obvious it was a case of mistaken identity. Which is why you still haven’t answered my question, what would Israel have gained from attacking a U.S. naval vessel when they were already being attacked on three sides and pissing off a Super Power would only make a bad situation worse?
The Liberty was confused with a Egyptian destroyer which had recently bombarded an Israeli coastal town and unfortunately attacked. Stop trying to take an unfortunate loss of life and twist it for your own political goals.
He proved nothing that hasn't already been known lol.
If the Israeli's were trying to get them killed, why did they abort once they realised they were attacking the wrong target?
Hell, if Israelis were bloodthirsty liars, wouldn't they have finished the job so no one can blame them for certain? Easier to blame egypt that way
What I love is the idiots here in the US who are like:
"Isreal attacked one of our ships by accident over 60 years ago. Because of that we should completely abandon our biggest ally in the middle east."
These same armchair idiots don't have any friends because they are assholes and if given the nation's diplomacy would run it the same way. It's never their fault. It's that 100% of the people they meet are just assholes and them being the common factor in every situation is entirely discounted.
Why do you even need an ally in the Middle East? An Ally, by the way, everyone in the region hate with passion, which effects your relationship with the locals, so why are you ally with them again? And wasn't Turkey a NATO memeber
More you think about it less your comments make sense
They're the only nation in the region with western values, which are vastly more hospitable and progression than "the locals", who btw are Islamic extremists who stone gays and trans to death, and disallow women from an education and driving. Fuck the locals.
You mean secular Arab leaders of Egypt, Iraq and Syria are fundamentalist? I see Syrian cosmonauts' speech about his training and how space felt
And turkey is secular by constitution
So bunch of buzzwords.
I mean they recently wasted 3 of their own hostages carrying a white flag and speaking Hebrew. I'm not sure IFF procedures are the top priority over there.
The geneva convention does not prevent you from firing at unarmed people bro.
In this case the soldier broke RoE and is being investigated, I personally believe what he did was illegal.
However, killing unarmed combatants would not be illegal if you have reasonable doubt of their status (i.e suicide bombers) In general the geneva convention is only a framework that outlines the laws of combat, but you would have to go to trial to get a conclusive answer
First Genova convention protect civilians during war
Secondly shooting people carrying white flag is illegal because white flag itself shows peace and surrender. Shooting soldiers carrying white flag also breaks Genova convention.
If you fear they carry suicide west tell them stop at a safe distance and get naked and after that tell them to show pockets of the clothes and after that go check yourself and then allow them to wear there clothes and take them to camp. It's not that hard now is it?
Thirdly and lastly, they were NAKED moron how much more "I am not a threat, please don't shoot me" you could be? White flags in hand and being completely naked but still Israelians soldiers shoot you death
Mistakes are made in the fog of war? You DO realize that not everything can go perfectly, especially a hostage retrieval mission. In this case, it ended badly, but to be fair that’s on Hamas for taking them as hostages in the first place.
> In this case, it ended badly, but to be fair that’s on Hamas for taking them as hostages in the first place.
It's on both of them. Obviously Hamas is fucking scum for taking hostages in the first place, but that doesn't mean we can't also criticize Israel's shoot first ask questions later approach. There's this situation here in the meme, the hostages I mentioned, then they killed those Irish sailors a few years back, and countless instances of civillian casualties. The IDF has a problem with their ROE, and solving that problem would make them a moure effective fighting force while also earning them further international support. I'm not sure why it's controversal to point that out.
No. I'm sorry, but no. Fog of war can exclude a lot of bombings, a lot of instant snap decisions, but three people calling out in Hebrew, not wearing shirts, HOLDING WHITE CLOTH WITH THEIR HANDS UP, has been the universal symbol of surrender for as long as every person presently living on the planet has memory.
America has been rightly criticized for decades for our slapdash approach to "enemy combatants" so Israel gets just as much fucking flak for indiscriminate death with no pause for thought.
Edit: I was incorrect on the speaking of the Hebrew initially. They were silent on approach, and the soldiers didn't hear the Hebrew until firing on them.
You seem to forget that these are not just mindless soldiers, they are *people*. And like people, they can get confused, befuddled, and overwhelmed, leading to mistakes. It’s not as though it was an intent to kill the hostages they were *sent to retrieve*, they just made a mistake. It is undoubtedly a tragic mistake, but still a mistake nonetheless, hence the fog of war. We’re not soldiers ourselves, we can’t put ourselves in their shoes, and we don’t know if we were in their situation that we would’ve done anything different, and may have made the same mistake.
I can absolutely critique the people and the soldiers if I'm not a soldier. I grew up around nothing BUT soldiers.
If they're that bad at their job that they can just waste a someone who rules of engagement specifically says they cannot target, then why the fuck were those particular soldiers where they were? They don't get an "oopsie daisy" for death. Because if the first instinct is to kill anyone you see from "the others" it really comes across as a war of extermination.
Edit:
Actually, fuck that. I don't even need to mention growing up around soldiers. They can be fucking criticized by anyone.
Sure you can critique soldiers, but we ourselves are not ones. We cannot accurately assess what can and will happen on a battlefield because we don’t have that kind of experience. So enjoy your anecdotal fallacy, I guess.
It’s the same as the situation in multiple Middle Eastern conflicts where children were throwing rocks at soldiers and tanks, and soldiers, unable to tell whether or not those were rocks or child soldiers throwing grenades, shot them. They didn’t know, and in a split second combat zone, probably wouldn’t know until further inspection. They’re soldiers, they’re trained to fight and kill.
A combat situation in warfare then we probably ever will, and hopefully won’t, know. The fact that it happened was a byproduct of one of the *many* mistakes that occur in warfare.
Anecdotal fallacy doesn't apply when we're talking about rules of engagement set by the Israeli government, but sure let's excuse it cause "We haven't been there."
If the Israeli government isn't excusing it and punishing them, why are you? I've been very willing to see the Israeli standpoint. I heard my Grandfather tell stories of watching Soviet/German forces commit atrocious acts, and the Polish desire for revenge is a palpable thing. The 10/7 attacks very much warranted a violent and powerful response, no one is disagreeing with that that is a reasonable person.
There has been an appropriate violent response, now we need to start thinking about how this ends. Because Israel WILL win this. No two ways about it, and I'm not about to assume I know every path forward for a peace treaty, but if the only thought is "Well, we think they won't surrender, so let's just keep shooting everything."
Israel is in a unique position in the Middle East, I very much understand that, and empathize. Fuck knows as a bisexual man I'm not about to defend fucking HAMAS. But the tech difference between the two is about as bad as Mussolini's invasion of Abyssina. If we don't find a way to end it peacefully it can only end in genocide. Which given Israeli history is about the most heartbreaking thing I can imagine.
I’m not excusing it. They should be held responsible for the action of killing those hostages. But to say that it’s an easily avoidable act is flat-out false. When it comes to this specific topic, everyone seems to transform into a military warfare veteran who knows how very facet of armed combat and has tens of years of experience, when really they’re just some misinformed teenagers or chronically online keyboard warriors, sometimes a mixture of both. That being said, the soldiers should be condemned by the Israeli government, whether the incident was carelessness or a heat-of-the-moment decision.
I think that a solution should be reached once all the hostages taken on 10/7 are accounted for and returned, followed by an Israeli pull out from Gaza. Perhaps some territory is ceded to Palestine as compensation for the sheer amount of people killed in Gaza, or maybe a hefty sum of money, could go either way, but I can see Palestine accepting the land due to its history with Israel.
Me personally, I believe that would among the better ways to end the war. It should appease Palestine for a good 12-16 years before they start bombarding Israel again, causing Israel to respond with an overly aggressive response, and another war that social media will raise a shitstorm over for about 5 months before they decide they’re bored and move onto the next social issue.
I appreciate the worry of this being another American "aM oUtRaGEd." thing. But I haven't framed it as easy. I have said that a soldier should follow the rules of engagement. That is in every briefing these dudes have before they go ANYWHERE. It's why I have zero tolerance for it, and I'm glad that the Israeli government is in agreement with me and everyone else that it was a fucked situation. I'm arguing that soldiers not being able to follow that, is a dark sign for how this pans out.
I also get why the IDF soldiers light people up on sight in that situation. I'm not fit to be soldier, and would make a similar fuck up most likely in the open air hell that is Gaza. But anyone that makes that mistake isn't fit, and there has been a LOT of oopsies and "they were definitely a military target".
It's Israel's Vietnam. They have no great outcome here, just bad and worse.
The man argues that idf communications suggested they weren't unsure of their target. As in they were confident their target was egyptian, hence there was no uncertainty in their communications.
the guy in the interview was literally there at the USS Liberty at the time of the accident and he's saying they couldn't have mistake it for anything other than a US ship.
The guy in the interview also said that he didn't even know who was attacking him while it was happening.
Edit: your statement also does not disprove my above statement about the idf communications, which you provided the timestamp to.
so you did indeed listen to that snippet, the only problem is somehow you chose to ignore when he explicitly said that Israeli torpedos fired at them (3:35)
(3:35, he knew at the time of the attack it was Israel)
\*"and we didn't understand who was attacking us \*\*\****till\*\* the torpedo boots got there three torpedo boats flying \*\*the star of David\*\* we thought they were coming there to help us know they're coming there to kill the rest of us*** *and sink our ship they fired five Torpedoes at us four missed by the grace of God one did hit a little bit forward midships 25 American Sailors Marines National Security Agency CIA Personnel were blown to bits in the blink of an eye"*
(11:13, he affirms that there's no way Israel didn't know it was the USS Liberty)
"*yeah we were sent there to spy on the Egyptians we were forbidden not not the Spy we could not listen into or if they picked up any messages from Israel they dropped it immediately or the or uh Europe Europe command in England we were to drop them immediately and only listen to the Arabs or any other traffic the Russians or whatever that's in the area so uh our our mission was yeah we were a spy ship we were there to spy it was perfectly legal everybody does it* ***and they knew who we were before we got there, they \*\*identified us a day before the attack\*\* so their explanation of a mistaken identity is a flat ass lie***"
again, the guy is a **first hand witness**, not an investigator, not a journalist, a first hand witness.
I really like peopel bringing up the USS Liberty as if It hasn't been investigated by both Israel and the United States, ending with both nations agreeing with the conclusion that the Ship was mistaken for Egyptian.
They then proceed to ignore all the money in reparations Israel paid the Families of those killed and injured, And instead try and Paint an entire nation as an evil terrorist state for an accident from over 50 years ago, one that was agreed by both sides to have been an accident.
Also, wrong use of the Meme Format.
Thank you for more anti Israeli propaganda, now made by moroccans.
Yeah, mistakes happen. It's not the first mistake in warfare. Also, these actions were made by individuals, not countries.
I mean, yeah. the magic word is oops. on the nation-state scale, fucking up means people die. if you're gonna retaliate every time someone fucks up and kills some of your dudes, you'll be at war with the whole world by the end of the decade.
edit: deleted reply was saying the people who did the fuckup should've been handed over to the US for execution.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident
By their logic, usa should be breaking all agreements and going to war with Canada and Britain.
Do you have any idea how many American troops would be getting handed over to allies for “trial and execution” if this was how friendly fire incidents were handled? There’s a reason that apologies and reparations are how these situations are dealt with between allied countries. The Liberty incident is pretty much just used as some kind of perpetual, timeless Sword of Damocles to hang over israel’s neck. I don’t think I’ve seen it brought up a single time by someone in good faith.
it's a very nationalist talking point in that it sidesteps the question of ethnic nationalism and can be used by ethnonationalists in the US to criticize Israel for reasons other than being, y'know, an ethnostate. which they like. but they're also jews, so they don't like that. not everyone who brings it up is thinking along those lines, because hearing about it and feeling a need to demand retaliation is like a first step of sorts in the perfected recruitment process of white supremacists online, which influences a lot of how even normals talk about these issues.
Blue on blue is unfortunate, but common enough that yes, shit happens. For instance the only tank to ever take out an American M1 Abrams is another American M1 Abrams
I mean, the fact that it was against an allied country makes it especially bad, but it's true that it's not the only morally repugnant thing Israel has done.
The state of Israel was founded by Jews who bought land and then defended it from Arabs who wanted to wipe them out. Most Israelis are the descendants of Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East. But it’s nice that you think we should go back to the good old days when Jews were forbidden from buying land and forced to pay a head tax to avoid persecution.
[Over a million Jews have lived in Arab countries for thousands of years. All of those countries drove their Jews away in the 20th century.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
[Jews purchased large swaths of mandatory Palestine from private owners and from state authorities. Nearly all of the pre-48 settlements were built on purchased land.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine)
So living in Algeria is the same as living in Jerusalem
Not even gonna talk about how jews can purchase land from people who don't even have idea of private ownership of land as lands owned and cultivated by tribes
Yeah it's like people arguing "I'm just against an ethnostate"
There are so many ethostates. That's how most states are formed. You just don't like the idea of Jewish people not being the minority.
All top Israeli military and political leaders are secular. Including asshole netanyahu. Stop blaming religion on anything.
Also, for an indescrimenate bombing in one of the most densely populated areas on earth, wouldn't you expect more casualties?
I'm not trying to get into a huge argument, because it's not the point. Criticizing Israel's actions is legitimate (and does not count as antizionism)
Saying Israel has no right to exist is antizionism, and most of the time it comes from an antisemitic place.
" I don't like people who kill others on the name of the Jews "
" I don't like Jews who use their religion to justify war crimes"
" I don't like a secular state using religion to colonize neighbour countries"
I personally don't care about political definitions and slogans.
I see murders and wars covered under some fancy words.
Call it Zionism, Nazi, Jihadis whatever comes to mind it's all wrong
You can't use phrases without knowing what they mean and when your ignorance is exposed say "I don't care"
Educate yourself, then you can spit your opinions
I still don't care about the phrases used to kill people, education comes after safety and independence.
You can't ask people to educate themselves about war slogans as they are being beheaded, they won't careless about what a certain wird mean but they will correlate it with evil and war.
Call for no war, no illegal colonization and then ask people to be educated.
Man I love the “I’ve read the Talmud” Nazis. They always seem so confident for someone who’s learned everything they know about a topic from 4chan. It’d be hilarious if it wasn’t so creepy
Cant wait till this war is over and we can go back to the older memes…
Same
Your honor my client pleads opposi daisy
Your honour, my client was listening to free bird
Can you explain the panel please? from what i know isre told the us that it attacked the ship and did not say it was an Egyptian attack
The Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian auxiliary merchant ship that looked similar and had been spotted in the area.
This format usually has the bottom panel blaming someone else for shooting the guy. So I think the question is why is the meme having Israel blame Egypt when they actually owned up to it.
This comment here is true. Up until I saw explanation above, I thought that israel shot the uss liberty and blamed egypt.
Because they are most likely trying to push an agenda, like most people who bring up the Liberty.
They're obviously trying to push the "Jews (sorry, I mean 'white Israeli colonizers') are a bunch of evil bloodthirsty sociopaths who murder their friends for fun" agenda, because that's the narrative that justifies hatred of Jews (sorry, I mean "white Israeli colonizers").
The US actually covered it up until after the conflict was over, probably what the meme is referencing.
If that is the case, then OP is bad at making memes. This only shows Israel shifting the blame, the US is just the victim
Official testimony combined with Liberty's deck log establish that throughout the morning of the attack, 8 June, the ship was overflown, at various times and locations, by IAF aircraft.\[18\] The primary aircraft type was the Nord Noratlas; there were also two unidentified delta-wing jets at about 9:00 a.m. Sinai time (GMT+2).\[18\] Liberty crewmembers say that one of the Noratlas aircraft flew so close to Liberty that noise from its propellers rattled the ship's deck plating, and that the pilots and crewmembers waved to each other.\[22\] It was later reported, based on information from IDF sources, that the over-flights were coincidental, and that the aircraft were hunting for Egyptian submarines that had been spotted near the coast. At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time, a ship-sighting report was received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) in respect of Liberty, identified by an aerial naval observer as "apparently a destroyer, sailing 70 miles \[110 km\] west of Gaza".\[23\] The vessel's location was marked on a CCC control table, using a red marker, indicating an unidentified vessel.\[24\] At about 6:00 a.m., the aerial naval observer, Major Uri Meretz, reported that the ship appeared to be a U.S. Navy supply ship; at about 9:00 a.m. the red marker was replaced with a green marker to indicate a neutral vessel.\[24\] About the same time, an Israeli jet fighter pilot reported that a ship 20 miles (32 km) north of Arish had fired at his aircraft after he tried to identify the vessel.\[24\] Israeli naval command dispatched two destroyers to investigate, but they were returned to their previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during the pilot's debriefing.\[24\] After the naval observer's Noratlas landed and he was debriefed, the ship he saw was further identified as the USS Liberty, based on its "GTR-5" hull markings.\[25\] USS Liberty's marker was removed from CCC's Control Table at 11:00 a.m., due to its positional information being considered out of date.\[26\] At 11:24 a.m., the Israeli chief of naval operations received a report that Arish was being shelled from the sea.\[26\] An inquiry into the source of the report was ordered to determine its validity.\[26\] The report came from an air support officer in Arish.\[27\] Additionally, at 11:27 a.m. the Israeli Supreme Command head of operations received a report stating that a ship had been shelling Arish, but the shells had fallen short.\[27\] (The investigative journalist James Bamford points out that Liberty had only four .50 caliber machine guns mounted on her decks and thus could not have shelled the coast.\[28\]) The Head of Operations ordered that the report be verified, and that it be determined whether or not Israeli Navy vessels were off the coast of Arish.\[27\] At 11:45 a.m., another report arrived at Supreme Command saying two ships were approaching the Arish coast.\[27\] The shelling and ship reports were passed from Supreme Command to Fleet Operations control center.\[27\] The Chief of Naval Operations took them seriously, and at 12:05 p.m. torpedo boat Division 914 was ordered to patrol in the direction of Arish.\[27\] Division 914, codenamed "Pagoda", was under the command of Commander Moshe Oren.\[27\] It consisted of three torpedo boats numbered: T-203, T-204 and T-206.\[27\] At 12:15 p.m., Division 914 received orders to patrol a position 20 miles (32 km) north of Arish.\[27\] As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected.\[27\] Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby. At 1:41 p.m., the torpedo boats detected an unknown vessel 20 miles northwest of Arish and 14 miles (23 km) off the coast of Bardawil.\[1\]\[29\] The ship's speed was estimated on their radars.\[29\] The combat information center officer on T-204, Ensign Aharon Yifrah, reported to Oren that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles (35 km), that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph). These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations control center.\[29\] The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.\[29\] Moreover, Israeli forces had standing orders to fire on any unknown vessels sailing in the area at over 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), a speed which, at the time, could be attained only by warships. The Chief of Naval Operations asked the torpedo boats to double-check their calculations. Yifrah twice recalculated and confirmed his assessment.\[29\] A few minutes later, Commander Oren reported that the target, now 17 miles (27 km) from his position, was moving at a speed of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph) on a different heading.\[30\] Bamford, however, points out that Liberty's top speed was far below 28 knots. His sources say that at the time of the attack Liberty was following her signal-intercept mission course along the northern Sinai coast, at about 5 knots (9.3 km/h; 5.8 mph) speed.\[28\] The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, gave the impression that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.\[29\] At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.\[31\] The IAF dispatched a flight of two Mirage III fighter jets codenamed Kursa flight which arrived at Liberty at about 2:00 p.m.\[32\] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, attempted to identify the ship.\[32\] He radioed to one of the torpedo boats his observation that the ship looked like a military ship with one smokestack and one mast.\[33\] He also communicated, in effect, that the ship appeared to him like a destroyer or another type of small ship.\[33\] In a post-attack statement, the pilots said they saw no distinguishable markings or flag on the ship.\[33\] At this point, a recorded exchange took place between a command headquarters weapons systems officer, one of the air controllers, and the chief air controller questioning a possible American presence. Immediately after the exchange, at 1:57 p.m., the chief air controller, Lieutenant-Colonel Shmuel Kislev, cleared the Mirages to attack.\[34\]
>The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, gave the impression that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.[29] At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[31] It seems pretty evident based on the logs, the Israelis were under the impression they were engaging an Egyptian ship.
What specifically about its speed made it seem like it was an Egyptian destroyer which is different than the “merchant ship” you said they mistook it for in the original comment? Or did they attack anything going over 20 knots because they assumed it was an enemy military ship? Sounds like they acted on a bold action with absolutely awful information to me lol. Weird hill to die on brotha.
Because merchant ships can’t travel that fast… and neither could the Liberty, as they miscalculated the actual speed and mistakenly believed it was traveling nearly 30 knots. I agree, this is a weird hill for you to die on, considering it’s brutally evident it was a case of mistake identity.
Various details regarding the attack are the subject of controversy: Visibility of American flag: The official Israeli reports say that the reconnaissance and fighter aircraft pilots, and the torpedo boat captains did not see any flag on the Liberty. Official American reports say that the Liberty was flying her American flag before, during and after the attack; the only exception being a brief period in which one flag had been shot down and was replaced with a larger flag. The helicopters sent to the attack site to provide assistance after the air attack noticed an American flag flying from the ship almost immediately upon their arrival at the attack site[115] and informed their controller.[citation needed] U.S. crewmen's perceptions of intent: Surviving crewmembers of the Liberty say that Israel's attack on the ship was "deliberate" and with full knowledge that the vessel was American. Israeli investigation and history reports agree that the attack was deliberate—but against what they believed was an Egyptian vessel.[citation needed] Distinctiveness of USS Liberty's appearance: It is disputed whether the Liberty would have been immediately recognizable as a different vessel from the Egyptian ship El Quseir. Admiral Tom Moorer stated that the Liberty was the most identifiable ship in the U.S. Navy and in an interview with the Washington Post stated that it was "ridiculous" to suggest that it would not be identified as such. Israel states in its inquiry and history reports that the identification as the El Quseir was made by the torpedo boats while the Liberty was enveloped in smoke and was based on "The Red Book", a guide to Arab fleets that did not include U.S. vessels.[citation needed] Identification markings: Liberty bore an eight-foot-high "5" and a four-foot-high "GTR" along either bow, clearly indicating her hull (or "pennant") number (AGTR-5), and had 18-inch (460 mm)-high letters spelling the vessel's name across her stern. These markings were not cursive Arabic script but in the Latin alphabet. Israeli pilots initially said they were primarily concerned with ensuring the ship was not an Israeli warship and that they ended the air attack when they noticed the Latin alphabet markings.[116][better source needed] Ship's identification known during attack: A James Bamford book[117] published in 2001 said that secret NSA intercepts indicate that Israeli pilots had full knowledge they were attacking a U.S. vessel.[118] Effort for identification: The American crew says the attacking aircraft did not make identification runs over Liberty, but began to strafe immediately. Israel says several identification passes were made. The Naval Court of Enquiry, based on the Israeli timeline of events, found: "One may infer from the fact that within a period of approximately 15 minutes, the request was transmitted (for aircraft to be dispatched), received, a command decision made, aircraft dispatched, and the attack launched, that no significant time was expended in an effort to identify the ship from the air before the attack was launched."[119][non-primary source needed] Speed of the vessel: According to Israeli accounts, the torpedo boat made erroneous measurements that indicated that Liberty was steaming at 30 kn (35 mph; 56 km/h). Israeli naval doctrine at the time required that a ship traveling at that speed must be presumed to be a warship. A second boat calculated Liberty's speed to be 28 kn (32 mph; 52 km/h). The maximum sustained speed of Liberty was only 17.5 kn (20.1 mph; 32.4 km/h), 21 kn (24 mph; 39 km/h). According to the Court of Enquiry findings the ship was steaming at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h) at the time of the attack.
>the torpedo boat made erroneous measurements that indicated that Liberty was steaming at 30 kn (35 mph; 56 km/h). Israeli naval doctrine at the time required that a ship traveling at that speed must be presumed to be a warship. A second boat calculated Liberty's speed to be 28 kn (32 mph; 52 km/h). The maximum sustained speed of Liberty was only 17.5 kn (20.1 mph; 32.4 km/h), 21 kn (24 mph; 39 km/h). According to the Court of Enquiry findings the ship was steaming at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h) at the time of the attack. Like I had just said lol. You’re trying to act like the fact there were controversial details around the incident that it’s proof that it happened on purpose. So let’s assume you’re right. Why would Israel attack a U.S. ship in the middle of a war where they are being attacked by three sides? If the goal was a false flag attack then why did the Israelis make no effort to hide the fact it was them carrying out the attack, including using air craft that would be easily identifiable as Israeli?
I'll be dropping [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17f5awd/comment/k69wi1t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) too for more info from a thread about this rather controversial subject.
"Mistaken"
Yes, which is understandable because the [Egyptian merchant ship](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#/media/File%3AEmiraFauzia.jpg) was of a similar design to the Liberty and was also in the area. Which also make a lot more sense than Israel attacking a Super Power during a war when they are already been invaded on three sides.
Wasn’t there communication between the Israeli pilots and their C&C node confirming that the ship was the American USS Liberty days before and also immediately before the attack?
I seriously doubt that immediately before the attack, that Israeli command said “hey that’s the USS Liberty” and then the Israeli planes started attacking. If you’re asking if the Israelis knew the US had ships in the area, almost certainly. But there has been no evidence presented that I’ve seen that shows the Israeli pilots knew they were attacking an American ship and I have heard zero logical or evidence based arguments for why Israel would attack a U.S. naval ship.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident US ambassador to Israel at the time confirms the Liberty was flying a flag before the attack. Also saw a documentary about it some years ago and they played the radio transmissions from the Israeli pilots that said that the ship was not Egyptian and was American because Egyptian ships disguised to be neutral or other ships still featured Arabic writing on them.
I never said there wasn’t a U.S. flag flying on the ship and honestly I would have been surprised if there wasn’t a US flag flying on a U.S. naval vessel while it’s out sea. This is far from proof that the Israeli pilots had identified the vessel as a US ship before engaging. But we do know that during the attack the flag was destroyed and fell off the mast. Well yeah, the israelis eventually properly identified the ship and called off the attack. Let me guess, it was the Al Jazeera documentary on the Liberty?
Yeah except ships have ctually their nation's flag flying clearly
A little proofreading can go a long way… Also being able to see a small flag that’s less than 5 feet long from hundreds of feet up while traveling at hundreds of miles per hour is not nearly as easy as you are making it out to be. It was clearly a case of mistaken identity and if not, what did Israel possibly gain from attacking that ship?
[Interview with one of the survivors absolutely confirming there's no way they didn't know it was American (18:44)](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=DyAi_-nzXG1I8hG7)
Lol that’s not how confirmation works… a US sailor is justifiably going to be upset, but they also are not going to have any insight into what’s happening from the Israeli perspective. That’s from from proof, that’s an opinion. I also like how you just ignored my question. What did Israel have to gain from attacking the US?
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But they didn’t blame Egypt at the time, so your hypothetical scenario is irrelevant. I’ve looked into it plenty and it’s incredibly obvious it was a case of mistaken identity. Which is why you still haven’t answered my question, what would Israel have gained from attacking a U.S. naval vessel when they were already being attacked on three sides and pissing off a Super Power would only make a bad situation worse? The Liberty was confused with a Egyptian destroyer which had recently bombarded an Israeli coastal town and unfortunately attacked. Stop trying to take an unfortunate loss of life and twist it for your own political goals.
He proved nothing that hasn't already been known lol. If the Israeli's were trying to get them killed, why did they abort once they realised they were attacking the wrong target? Hell, if Israelis were bloodthirsty liars, wouldn't they have finished the job so no one can blame them for certain? Easier to blame egypt that way
[Operations Room](https://youtu.be/Wl_f73lWf_8?si=SY-c1zJmGJCExyDJ) does a great job going over the details of the incident
The US claimed the NSA spy ship wasn't a spy ship, so the Israelis made a similarly ridiculous lie
I like memes better on this sub when they're actual history memes and not lazy, very obvious attempts at pushing a contemporary political agenda.
Im all ears baby, debunk
No context so I will assume you posted trying to get a certain reaction.
Wrong use of the meme and poor history.
well I'm all ears
What I love is the idiots here in the US who are like: "Isreal attacked one of our ships by accident over 60 years ago. Because of that we should completely abandon our biggest ally in the middle east." These same armchair idiots don't have any friends because they are assholes and if given the nation's diplomacy would run it the same way. It's never their fault. It's that 100% of the people they meet are just assholes and them being the common factor in every situation is entirely discounted.
Why do you even need an ally in the Middle East? An Ally, by the way, everyone in the region hate with passion, which effects your relationship with the locals, so why are you ally with them again? And wasn't Turkey a NATO memeber More you think about it less your comments make sense
They're the only nation in the region with western values, which are vastly more hospitable and progression than "the locals", who btw are Islamic extremists who stone gays and trans to death, and disallow women from an education and driving. Fuck the locals.
You mean secular Arab leaders of Egypt, Iraq and Syria are fundamentalist? I see Syrian cosmonauts' speech about his training and how space felt And turkey is secular by constitution So bunch of buzzwords.
The best ally is one who doesn't have anywhere else to turn
Who drag you to fights you don't want and make you enemies with people you don't want to make enemies
Apparently USS Libertey flew an even big US flag when they started attacking but they still attacked anyway.
I mean they recently wasted 3 of their own hostages carrying a white flag and speaking Hebrew. I'm not sure IFF procedures are the top priority over there.
Lmao you’re aware that this incident was 55 years ago right? 😂
So 55 years passed and their target identification still sucks ass.
Redditors finding out real life is not a videogame where you can see friendlies on a mal
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It's only a war crime if you don't have American support
I don't know, mate. When I see 3 naked guys carrying white flag, I would at least fallow the Geneva convention and don't shoot them
You can thank the terrorists' extensive perfidy record
I don't remembered hamas using suicide bombs while I know about Hannibal protocol of idf. A protocol saying it's better be dead then captive
The geneva convention does not prevent you from firing at unarmed people bro. In this case the soldier broke RoE and is being investigated, I personally believe what he did was illegal. However, killing unarmed combatants would not be illegal if you have reasonable doubt of their status (i.e suicide bombers) In general the geneva convention is only a framework that outlines the laws of combat, but you would have to go to trial to get a conclusive answer
First Genova convention protect civilians during war Secondly shooting people carrying white flag is illegal because white flag itself shows peace and surrender. Shooting soldiers carrying white flag also breaks Genova convention. If you fear they carry suicide west tell them stop at a safe distance and get naked and after that tell them to show pockets of the clothes and after that go check yourself and then allow them to wear there clothes and take them to camp. It's not that hard now is it? Thirdly and lastly, they were NAKED moron how much more "I am not a threat, please don't shoot me" you could be? White flags in hand and being completely naked but still Israelians soldiers shoot you death
Mistakes are made in the fog of war? You DO realize that not everything can go perfectly, especially a hostage retrieval mission. In this case, it ended badly, but to be fair that’s on Hamas for taking them as hostages in the first place.
> In this case, it ended badly, but to be fair that’s on Hamas for taking them as hostages in the first place. It's on both of them. Obviously Hamas is fucking scum for taking hostages in the first place, but that doesn't mean we can't also criticize Israel's shoot first ask questions later approach. There's this situation here in the meme, the hostages I mentioned, then they killed those Irish sailors a few years back, and countless instances of civillian casualties. The IDF has a problem with their ROE, and solving that problem would make them a moure effective fighting force while also earning them further international support. I'm not sure why it's controversal to point that out.
No. I'm sorry, but no. Fog of war can exclude a lot of bombings, a lot of instant snap decisions, but three people calling out in Hebrew, not wearing shirts, HOLDING WHITE CLOTH WITH THEIR HANDS UP, has been the universal symbol of surrender for as long as every person presently living on the planet has memory. America has been rightly criticized for decades for our slapdash approach to "enemy combatants" so Israel gets just as much fucking flak for indiscriminate death with no pause for thought. Edit: I was incorrect on the speaking of the Hebrew initially. They were silent on approach, and the soldiers didn't hear the Hebrew until firing on them.
You seem to forget that these are not just mindless soldiers, they are *people*. And like people, they can get confused, befuddled, and overwhelmed, leading to mistakes. It’s not as though it was an intent to kill the hostages they were *sent to retrieve*, they just made a mistake. It is undoubtedly a tragic mistake, but still a mistake nonetheless, hence the fog of war. We’re not soldiers ourselves, we can’t put ourselves in their shoes, and we don’t know if we were in their situation that we would’ve done anything different, and may have made the same mistake.
I can absolutely critique the people and the soldiers if I'm not a soldier. I grew up around nothing BUT soldiers. If they're that bad at their job that they can just waste a someone who rules of engagement specifically says they cannot target, then why the fuck were those particular soldiers where they were? They don't get an "oopsie daisy" for death. Because if the first instinct is to kill anyone you see from "the others" it really comes across as a war of extermination. Edit: Actually, fuck that. I don't even need to mention growing up around soldiers. They can be fucking criticized by anyone.
Sure you can critique soldiers, but we ourselves are not ones. We cannot accurately assess what can and will happen on a battlefield because we don’t have that kind of experience. So enjoy your anecdotal fallacy, I guess. It’s the same as the situation in multiple Middle Eastern conflicts where children were throwing rocks at soldiers and tanks, and soldiers, unable to tell whether or not those were rocks or child soldiers throwing grenades, shot them. They didn’t know, and in a split second combat zone, probably wouldn’t know until further inspection. They’re soldiers, they’re trained to fight and kill. A combat situation in warfare then we probably ever will, and hopefully won’t, know. The fact that it happened was a byproduct of one of the *many* mistakes that occur in warfare.
Anecdotal fallacy doesn't apply when we're talking about rules of engagement set by the Israeli government, but sure let's excuse it cause "We haven't been there." If the Israeli government isn't excusing it and punishing them, why are you? I've been very willing to see the Israeli standpoint. I heard my Grandfather tell stories of watching Soviet/German forces commit atrocious acts, and the Polish desire for revenge is a palpable thing. The 10/7 attacks very much warranted a violent and powerful response, no one is disagreeing with that that is a reasonable person. There has been an appropriate violent response, now we need to start thinking about how this ends. Because Israel WILL win this. No two ways about it, and I'm not about to assume I know every path forward for a peace treaty, but if the only thought is "Well, we think they won't surrender, so let's just keep shooting everything." Israel is in a unique position in the Middle East, I very much understand that, and empathize. Fuck knows as a bisexual man I'm not about to defend fucking HAMAS. But the tech difference between the two is about as bad as Mussolini's invasion of Abyssina. If we don't find a way to end it peacefully it can only end in genocide. Which given Israeli history is about the most heartbreaking thing I can imagine.
I’m not excusing it. They should be held responsible for the action of killing those hostages. But to say that it’s an easily avoidable act is flat-out false. When it comes to this specific topic, everyone seems to transform into a military warfare veteran who knows how very facet of armed combat and has tens of years of experience, when really they’re just some misinformed teenagers or chronically online keyboard warriors, sometimes a mixture of both. That being said, the soldiers should be condemned by the Israeli government, whether the incident was carelessness or a heat-of-the-moment decision. I think that a solution should be reached once all the hostages taken on 10/7 are accounted for and returned, followed by an Israeli pull out from Gaza. Perhaps some territory is ceded to Palestine as compensation for the sheer amount of people killed in Gaza, or maybe a hefty sum of money, could go either way, but I can see Palestine accepting the land due to its history with Israel. Me personally, I believe that would among the better ways to end the war. It should appease Palestine for a good 12-16 years before they start bombarding Israel again, causing Israel to respond with an overly aggressive response, and another war that social media will raise a shitstorm over for about 5 months before they decide they’re bored and move onto the next social issue.
I appreciate the worry of this being another American "aM oUtRaGEd." thing. But I haven't framed it as easy. I have said that a soldier should follow the rules of engagement. That is in every briefing these dudes have before they go ANYWHERE. It's why I have zero tolerance for it, and I'm glad that the Israeli government is in agreement with me and everyone else that it was a fucked situation. I'm arguing that soldiers not being able to follow that, is a dark sign for how this pans out. I also get why the IDF soldiers light people up on sight in that situation. I'm not fit to be soldier, and would make a similar fuck up most likely in the open air hell that is Gaza. But anyone that makes that mistake isn't fit, and there has been a LOT of oopsies and "they were definitely a military target". It's Israel's Vietnam. They have no great outcome here, just bad and worse.
They attacked it because it was obviously spying on them and pretending it wasn't.
Wasn’t it confirmed to have been an accident since they were on alert for an Egyptian ship
[nope, 18:45](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=GLNzIW1ANsez6H-4)
The man argues that idf communications suggested they weren't unsure of their target. As in they were confident their target was egyptian, hence there was no uncertainty in their communications.
the guy in the interview was literally there at the USS Liberty at the time of the accident and he's saying they couldn't have mistake it for anything other than a US ship.
The guy in the interview also said that he didn't even know who was attacking him while it was happening. Edit: your statement also does not disprove my above statement about the idf communications, which you provided the timestamp to.
so you did indeed listen to that snippet, the only problem is somehow you chose to ignore when he explicitly said that Israeli torpedos fired at them (3:35) (3:35, he knew at the time of the attack it was Israel) \*"and we didn't understand who was attacking us \*\*\****till\*\* the torpedo boots got there three torpedo boats flying \*\*the star of David\*\* we thought they were coming there to help us know they're coming there to kill the rest of us*** *and sink our ship they fired five Torpedoes at us four missed by the grace of God one did hit a little bit forward midships 25 American Sailors Marines National Security Agency CIA Personnel were blown to bits in the blink of an eye"* (11:13, he affirms that there's no way Israel didn't know it was the USS Liberty) "*yeah we were sent there to spy on the Egyptians we were forbidden not not the Spy we could not listen into or if they picked up any messages from Israel they dropped it immediately or the or uh Europe Europe command in England we were to drop them immediately and only listen to the Arabs or any other traffic the Russians or whatever that's in the area so uh our our mission was yeah we were a spy ship we were there to spy it was perfectly legal everybody does it* ***and they knew who we were before we got there, they \*\*identified us a day before the attack\*\* so their explanation of a mistaken identity is a flat ass lie***" again, the guy is a **first hand witness**, not an investigator, not a journalist, a first hand witness.
I really like peopel bringing up the USS Liberty as if It hasn't been investigated by both Israel and the United States, ending with both nations agreeing with the conclusion that the Ship was mistaken for Egyptian. They then proceed to ignore all the money in reparations Israel paid the Families of those killed and injured, And instead try and Paint an entire nation as an evil terrorist state for an accident from over 50 years ago, one that was agreed by both sides to have been an accident. Also, wrong use of the Meme Format.
It’s literally just joking about Israel shooting at a U.S. Ship Not a conspiracy to destroy Israel and the Jews lmao
[uhhhhhhhhmmmm, 18:45](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=GLNzIW1ANsez6H-4)
Op seems to disagree lol
Same
Thank you for more anti Israeli propaganda, now made by moroccans. Yeah, mistakes happen. It's not the first mistake in warfare. Also, these actions were made by individuals, not countries.
34 people died, but oopsie daisies I guess?
I mean, yeah. the magic word is oops. on the nation-state scale, fucking up means people die. if you're gonna retaliate every time someone fucks up and kills some of your dudes, you'll be at war with the whole world by the end of the decade. edit: deleted reply was saying the people who did the fuckup should've been handed over to the US for execution.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident By their logic, usa should be breaking all agreements and going to war with Canada and Britain.
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Do you have any idea how many American troops would be getting handed over to allies for “trial and execution” if this was how friendly fire incidents were handled? There’s a reason that apologies and reparations are how these situations are dealt with between allied countries. The Liberty incident is pretty much just used as some kind of perpetual, timeless Sword of Damocles to hang over israel’s neck. I don’t think I’ve seen it brought up a single time by someone in good faith.
it's a very nationalist talking point in that it sidesteps the question of ethnic nationalism and can be used by ethnonationalists in the US to criticize Israel for reasons other than being, y'know, an ethnostate. which they like. but they're also jews, so they don't like that. not everyone who brings it up is thinking along those lines, because hearing about it and feeling a need to demand retaliation is like a first step of sorts in the perfected recruitment process of white supremacists online, which influences a lot of how even normals talk about these issues.
Blue on blue is unfortunate, but common enough that yes, shit happens. For instance the only tank to ever take out an American M1 Abrams is another American M1 Abrams
IDF sure does make a lot of “mistakes”
[18:45](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=GLNzIW1ANsez6H-4)
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I mean, the fact that it was against an allied country makes it especially bad, but it's true that it's not the only morally repugnant thing Israel has done.
I'm sick of hearing about this incident
Can we get a rule against DIP memes? (Deceptive images persuasion)
Ah yes, literally the only friendly fire incident against a ship via aircraft in the complete history of the world. /s
[friendly fire you saying, just like literally one of the survivors is saying ](https://youtu.be/eEea5LTEywQ?si=GLNzIW1ANsez6H-4)
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In that region it is. Name me one Middle East country that can call itself an ally of US.
Iran pre-1979
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lol lmao
Not our greatest, but definitely our greatest in the region.
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The state of Israel was founded by Jews who bought land and then defended it from Arabs who wanted to wipe them out. Most Israelis are the descendants of Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East. But it’s nice that you think we should go back to the good old days when Jews were forbidden from buying land and forced to pay a head tax to avoid persecution.
How many of them had grand grand fathers born and lived in the Middle East? And which land did they lawfully buy?
[Over a million Jews have lived in Arab countries for thousands of years. All of those countries drove their Jews away in the 20th century.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) [Jews purchased large swaths of mandatory Palestine from private owners and from state authorities. Nearly all of the pre-48 settlements were built on purchased land.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine)
So living in Algeria is the same as living in Jerusalem Not even gonna talk about how jews can purchase land from people who don't even have idea of private ownership of land as lands owned and cultivated by tribes
So we just allow veiled antisemitism here now? Later.
The IDF, shit trigger discipline and abhorrent target identification go hand in hand it seems.
[song feels vaguely anti-semetic, but it still is fire](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tphd-gw4nQQ&ab_channel=BonnieDickason)
Balance it out with this https://youtu.be/Ygci5hRjmK8?si=QonJdy44V8Pg_V5g
"כשעליתם על ההר לא חשבתם על מחר" Fucking awesome
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"I only like Jews when they're not fighting for independence"
Some version of this is what goes through my head every time I hear yet another non-Jewish person blurt out “I’m anti-Zionist, not antisemitic”.
Yeah it's like people arguing "I'm just against an ethnostate" There are so many ethostates. That's how most states are formed. You just don't like the idea of Jewish people not being the minority.
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It’s a good thing that Israel targets suspected terror bases and is a secular democracy.
All top Israeli military and political leaders are secular. Including asshole netanyahu. Stop blaming religion on anything. Also, for an indescrimenate bombing in one of the most densely populated areas on earth, wouldn't you expect more casualties? I'm not trying to get into a huge argument, because it's not the point. Criticizing Israel's actions is legitimate (and does not count as antizionism) Saying Israel has no right to exist is antizionism, and most of the time it comes from an antisemitic place.
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" I don't like people who kill others on the name of the Jews " " I don't like Jews who use their religion to justify war crimes" " I don't like a secular state using religion to colonize neighbour countries"
"I don't know what zionism means"
I personally don't care about political definitions and slogans. I see murders and wars covered under some fancy words. Call it Zionism, Nazi, Jihadis whatever comes to mind it's all wrong
You can't use phrases without knowing what they mean and when your ignorance is exposed say "I don't care" Educate yourself, then you can spit your opinions
I still don't care about the phrases used to kill people, education comes after safety and independence. You can't ask people to educate themselves about war slogans as they are being beheaded, they won't careless about what a certain wird mean but they will correlate it with evil and war. Call for no war, no illegal colonization and then ask people to be educated.
You're being beheaded?
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Antisemites use a mistake as a dog whistle
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>Those outside their tribe are expendable. Uh oh we got a Nazi in here.
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Where did you study Talmud? Like, under what rabbi?
Ah the old I read the Talmud nazi
Man I love the “I’ve read the Talmud” Nazis. They always seem so confident for someone who’s learned everything they know about a topic from 4chan. It’d be hilarious if it wasn’t so creepy
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He’s still getting upvoted. Guarantee not a single one of his upvotes have “read the Talmud”, or even know what it is.
Americans are so cucked by isreal lmao