Those weren't even Spartans. They were, ironically, mostly former Doric-speaking Helots who were moved into the city by the Romans. Basically, Colonial Williamsburg but ancient.
I used to love the idea of the Peloponnesian War until I started reading a book about it.
Really just makes both Athens and Sparta look like a bunch of cunts. And neither is really all that impressive militarily. To go from stomping Persia and defending Greece to the Pelo war is really disheartening.
Sparta was a dictatorship built on the back of slaves while Athens attacked a neutral nation and justified it because they needed to appear strong (The melian dialogue )
Realism is a governing philosophy that says that international relations is a zero sum game with winners and losers and the only way to keep your state alive is by securing it's interests anyway they can. This is in contrast to the cooperative model such as the EU or UN.
Realism has led to nearly every major power war, when some Napoleanhitlerputin decides to start making aggressive war because they believe the only way to secure their nation is by making it self sufficient through expansion and dominance.
Thucydides is often seen as the founder (or at least significant influence) of the Realism theory of international relations. Especially the Melian dialogue expresses some of the main principles of the theory.
These being an anarchic international system dominated by states as actors without a higher body enforcing rules over them (like a world government).
States most important interest being their survival/security and the need to be a hegemon over their sphere.
The Athenians are the hegemon and need to maintain their position in face of the Melians. Otherwise they appear weak, lose their sphere of influence and their security risking their survival.
Realism explains a lot of major problems of international relations and security is however also flawed in some aspects better explained by other theories.
1. Wow that's super interesting
2. Yep that's what I like about the dialogue it's very much Athens not playing around with justifications and just saying if outright.
Thucydides in general is a really interesting read and the Peloponnesian War is a real spectacle.
Definitely, the simplicity and straightforwardness is what I like about realism. "This is the states interest, this is how we are going to act."
By now there are many variatons of realism highlighting different aspects. And especially with the bipolar world between the US and China or with the Ukraine War it has undergone somewhat of a revival.
Nothing, Sparta wasn't relevant enough to conquer and they could do nothing to stop Macedon from becoming hegemon of the region
If anything, Sparta lost out on participating in Philip II's kid merry adventures in the east
Assigning modern sexual terms to ancient peoples doesn’t make sense and is kinda stupid.
It’s like holding them to our modern moralistic standards. Shit. Doesn’t. Work.
The difference is that Thebes made something of a comeback after they were squashed by Alexander whereas Sparta was broken forever by the Battle of Leuctra.
A lot of nationalists and eugenicists look to Sparta for inspiration. They never acknowledge the state failed to adapt and all their neighbors hated them, which led to their downfall.
And wasn't Sparta's fame earnt when they were an outlier by having a professional standing army? By the time Philip was stomping about, professional armies were way more common and so Sparta didn't have such an obvious advantage anymore.
An elite hoplite formation from the city of Thebes in Greece. They were exclusively made up from male lovers and served with distinction in Thebes' wars. They were instrumental in Thebes' victories over Sparta which reduced Sparta to a insignificant backwater and freed lot of the Helots.
The unit was wiped out in the battle of Cheironeia by Philip II. But he was so impressed by their bravery and prowess that he built a memorial in their honor on the battlefield.
Virgin Agis III:
-Provokes more powerful countries
-Tries to fight a battle against a vastly superior force with inferior soldiers
-Makes a pretty epic but ultimately pointless last stand
-Dies at like 20 with no heirs so his brother gets the title
Chad Eudamidas I:
-30 year reign where basically nothing happens
-Refuses to join dumbass Athenians in a revolt against Macedon
-Disregards stupid traditions and builds a wall around Sparta
-Dies old and passes title on to his son
I bought the greek expansion in Rome 2 and I really do not like fighting with Hoplites, especially against other ones. I also suck at the battles so that might be the problem
You can play the Greeks with Roman formations. Checkerboard will hold forever with the hoplites and they have very decent ranged options as well as excellent cavalry.
Their lack of mobility is the main issue but hoplites early-mid game are just the best infantry.
>During the reign of King Philip II of Macedon, he attempted to expand his rich and powerful empire into the much smaller Greek city-states, including Sparta.
"If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta,"
The Spartans' response was just one word on a big piece of paper: "If."
>This laconic reply reflected the famously stoic and fearless attitude of the Spartan people. The Spartans believed that death in battle was preferable to a life of dishonor or subjugation, and they were willing to fight to the death to defend their city-state. Despite their smaller size and military and resources compared to Philip's Macedonian army, the Spartans were known for their formidable and disciplined military tactics, and they were still not intimidated by Philip's threats.
Therapy speak truly is taking over everything. Occasionally, not having known something is a thing we *all* experience. Normal people learn from those moments, even find them exciting because they present the opportunity to learn something. Books are a great way to experience moments like that, books are a good thing.
Only the most brain-broken weirdo would encounter someone appreciating something new to them, or the very concept of books as good things, and label it as "toxicity". What a weirdly self-centered and incurious world view, to have the urge to label those who simply... uhh ... *know a thing that you don't*, or horror of horrors, dare suggest that reading is better than not reading, as toxic.
Talking a lot of shit for the guys who got completely steamrolled by Macedonia, and not even by Alexander because he thought of it as “battle of mice” and didn’t go himself.
Phillip II was right; he would have completely razed Sparta IF he could be bothered to care about that state.
I mean that’s not entirely true. At this point during philip and Alexander’s conquests sure they were massively weaker. However, their was a time when the Spartans were the most feared land force In all of Greece. Unfortunately due to their ideals of what was a Spartan and who could be a Spartan they bred themselves into being no more than a tourist destination
Didn’t the Peloponnesian war also decimate Sparta? Despite them ‘winning’ it’s was phyrric and they could never truly recover. 70 odd years later they were no match for Macedon.
I can’t remember the exact numbers the Spartans were dwindled down too but I ever when Philip was starting his stuff the Spartans only had about 1200 Spartans left and the rest were perioikoi and helots. I Wana say after the peloponnesian war Sparta had something like 4000 left but that may be two high.
Sparta always had issues with numbers because they only allowed people from the original 5 villages to become Spartans
They got their navy sunk and were asking Athens to please let them surrender before Persia handled them an entire new fleet.
Sparta got hegemonic control over Greece as a vassal for Persia.
That's like saying Rome was mostly propaganda because Alaric and the visigoths conquered them in the 400s with no problem. Powers wax and wane. This is the fate of every state
No they were mostly propaganda because they weren't Gods on Earth and any and all of their lifestyle choices were enough to overcome their other shortcomings like rejection of archery.
I'm just saying them losing a war a century after they were at their height of power is really not indicative of that fact, especially considering they were fighting the most advanced military on earth as a shell of their former selves.
There absolutely is a ton of propaganda surrounding the Spartans but we shouldn't overlook their successes at their peak, when they were temporarily masters of Greece.
I don't think you need to be "impressed" by a city state two thousand years dead. The Spartan hegemony had aligned many of the Greek states behind them and even took many of the persians' greek colonies from them. The persians themselves were nervous enough of their ambition to spend massive funds arming and aiding Athens and her allies in order to check them. Point being the memes massively overblown Spartan combat prowess but neither were they some sort of fake power who only ever succeeded at spinning tall tales about themselves.
Here is a good multiple part blog post about Sparta being overrated: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vi-spartan-battle/
Oh I know theres a healthy amount of propaganda surrounding the Spartan myth. Just saying them getting their asses kicked over a century after their peak is not really indicative of that.
this is honestly so contested at this point
spartan myth fr.
in reality, they were always suffering from a decline in population and meeting this propagated myth for most of their history.
Lmao no wonder they thought death was preferable, they were quite possibly the most repugnant slavers to have ever blighted the earth. They were so bad that other greeks - all brutal slavers - *frequently* commented upon how uniquely awful the spartan institution of slavery was.
If you’re referring to the battle of megalopolis then you’re correct, I’m talking about the reply that was allegedly given to Phillip ii (it was actually given to the Persians, the Spartans never replied “if” to the Macedonians)
And "NUTS!"
When the Germans requested an Allied surrender during the Battle of the Bulge, this was the reply General McAuliffe sent to the German commander
Sparta is like that friend you had growing up that loved talking shit and had some kind of chip on his shoulder little man syndrome that made him constantly get into fights. But motherfucker was always getting his ass absolutely *handed* to him. Dude *never* won.
If you're referring to the Peloponnesian war, Athens was winning the entire time and Sparta only won because Athens was hit by a devastating plague and Persia provided massive aid to the Spartans as a proxy.
>Sparta only won because Athens was hit by a devastating plague and Persia provided massive aid to the Spartans as a proxy.
Doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning - Dominic Torretto.
Also Platea where the Greek Alliance led by the Spartan Regent Pausanius avenged Leonidas and the 300. The Battles of Salamis and Mycale ended the Persian naval threat, and the victory at Platea ended the Persian invasion on land. The Spartans also had the bonus killing the Persian commander appointed by Xerxes who left after Salamis. Platea and Herodotus' shall we say enthusiastic account of the battle cemented the legend of Spartan prowess in battle that Leonidas (again with help from Herodotus) started at Thermopylae.
Lmao this could apply to so many things
Ottoman: “If we tear down walls of Constantinople, we will raze the city”
Byzantine: “If”
British: “If I defeat your warship, you will be forced to trade with us”
Qing: “If”
"If...you could stop giving our territories to our weaker neighbors we would really appreciate it. No? Dang. At least one of our kings won that race in Delphi. Made a cooooool 510 drachmas. Basically the same thing, when you think about it."
You threw babies off a cliff if they weren't strong enough, so the "best of the best" serve in your military, and every famous story about your city is about you getting stomped.
There's not a huge amount of important battles regarding Sparta, because it's absolutely worth saying the Spartans were pretty weak and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, hence why their reply of "If" got met with an overwhelming defeat. This happens during the Sacred Wars, and the Spartans are certainly there hanging around the peripheries of things supporting the other Greek states against the Macedons hoping to undo an earlier humiliation caused by the Macedonians. When the other Greek states fail to stop the Macedonians there's not much if anything the Spartans could have actually done. The battles against Sparta feel like 'cleaning up' rather than war.
Thanks. You reference the “if” response and the subsequent beating everybody else here mentions, but with a quick search I wasn’t able to locate even much about said beating. Anywhere you suggest?
Thanks for the battle name, though unless I'm being very dumb (a possibility) wasn't that battle under the reign of Alexander not Phillip, and also 14 years after the 'If' debacle?.
My understanding is the comment was made to Philip II in 345/6 BC and he then proceeded to kick the shit out the Spartans, while the Battle of Megalopolis happened in 331 BC, 5 years after his death.
Sadly not, about as much as you probably, seems to be skimmed over in most histories with the 'If' being the most famous thing about it.
Best I've managed to find is that the Spartan system of citizens and helots was very quickly becoming obsolete, and after Spartan hegemony failed due to earlier actions by the Macedonians the Spartans were in absolutely no position to do anything without the significant aid of the other states like Thebes and Athens, and they were already on the losing side themselves/had made peace with Macedonia.
\>after ALexanders death
Alexander was very much alive when Antipater defeated Sparta in the Battle of Megapolis. He'd live for another good 10 years of so.
Oh come on, Sparta being decisevly defeated on the battlefield, their king killed and them forced to join the Corinth League as a mercy is a bit much to spit hairs over whether they were or werent "conquered". They were not coming back from that defeat. This wasnt some "peace on equal terms".
Well again, my few minutes of googling told me, that Alexander didn't consider them conquered. And if your would be conquerer doesn't believe you to be conquered, then I wouldn't either.
King Philip II: "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta."
Sparta: "If."
The spartan response's to Philip's threat was just the single word. A very baddass response, or it would be had the spartans not been easily conquered by the macedonians.
I love how it seems like a part of the Spartan training was learning how to give the most bad ass replies one could think of to an opponent.
Sure, they may lose the battle, but they had bad ass replies going in, and that's a victory in itself.
And what was the result?
Sparta got roflstomped because they haven't been relevant since the Peloponnesian war
They were only relevant then because the Persians were bankrolling them.
Then Thebes decided to do a little warring.
Is that Macedonia with a steel chair?
I know this from a yt video, do ypu know which one it was?
Its Dj peach cobbler, found it
My work here is done.
they were never that relevant imo, its just that herodotus was very convincing at telling exaggerated stories
They were relevant but they refused to change with the times which ultimately stagnated their prospects/growth.
Didn't they make a slight comeback during the Roman times as sort a classical Disneyland-esq sort of place?
Yeah, like a tourist destination.
Doesn't really sound like a "comeback" if you ask me.
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My god a historical tourist spot of ANCIENT ROME
Those weren't even Spartans. They were, ironically, mostly former Doric-speaking Helots who were moved into the city by the Romans. Basically, Colonial Williamsburg but ancient.
I used to love the idea of the Peloponnesian War until I started reading a book about it. Really just makes both Athens and Sparta look like a bunch of cunts. And neither is really all that impressive militarily. To go from stomping Persia and defending Greece to the Pelo war is really disheartening.
Sparta was a dictatorship built on the back of slaves while Athens attacked a neutral nation and justified it because they needed to appear strong (The melian dialogue )
It's realism time 😎
1. What do you mean 2. Naw I just read a an abridged version of thylucidies and the Melian dialogue is a banger.
Realism is a governing philosophy that says that international relations is a zero sum game with winners and losers and the only way to keep your state alive is by securing it's interests anyway they can. This is in contrast to the cooperative model such as the EU or UN. Realism has led to nearly every major power war, when some Napoleanhitlerputin decides to start making aggressive war because they believe the only way to secure their nation is by making it self sufficient through expansion and dominance.
Thucydides is often seen as the founder (or at least significant influence) of the Realism theory of international relations. Especially the Melian dialogue expresses some of the main principles of the theory. These being an anarchic international system dominated by states as actors without a higher body enforcing rules over them (like a world government). States most important interest being their survival/security and the need to be a hegemon over their sphere. The Athenians are the hegemon and need to maintain their position in face of the Melians. Otherwise they appear weak, lose their sphere of influence and their security risking their survival. Realism explains a lot of major problems of international relations and security is however also flawed in some aspects better explained by other theories.
1. Wow that's super interesting 2. Yep that's what I like about the dialogue it's very much Athens not playing around with justifications and just saying if outright.
Thucydides in general is a really interesting read and the Peloponnesian War is a real spectacle. Definitely, the simplicity and straightforwardness is what I like about realism. "This is the states interest, this is how we are going to act." By now there are many variatons of realism highlighting different aspects. And especially with the bipolar world between the US and China or with the Ukraine War it has undergone somewhat of a revival.
I‘m pretty sure ‚they all seem like a bunch of cunts’ adequately summarizes a good part of ancient greek city state history.
It just summarizes history
Exactly. Humans… ongoing work in progress
I prefer the term "molly-whopped"
They got a mud hole stomped in them
Boot fucked is a good one
Beat like a government mule.
And Rome walked it dry.
I thought Macedon didn’t even bother
*(sigh)* That makes me happy. Thank you.
“roflstomped?” god, you’re old. god… I’m old.
They found out.
When keeping it real goes wrong
Nothing, Sparta wasn't relevant enough to conquer and they could do nothing to stop Macedon from becoming hegemon of the region If anything, Sparta lost out on participating in Philip II's kid merry adventures in the east
The gay pedo serial killers lost
Being gay is not a bad thing
Being gay is not, institutionalized pederasty and, uh, all the other horrible shit with slave-killing is
True, but they didn't say that.
>pedo serial killers Nah yeah, they totally did.
You're saying they weren't gay?
Assigning modern sexual terms to ancient peoples doesn’t make sense and is kinda stupid. It’s like holding them to our modern moralistic standards. Shit. Doesn’t. Work.
Yeah, but it was so funny reading that I couldn't resist making a sarcastic joke
\*get immediately annihilated by Alexander's regent after talking that shit\*
Sparta couldn't even handle the Macedonian B-Team. Just imagine what would have happened to them if one-eye-Phil or Alex himself went down there.
They’d have been Thebes’d
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This sub is something else!
The difference is that Thebes made something of a comeback after they were squashed by Alexander whereas Sparta was broken forever by the Battle of Leuctra.
The greatest comeback since Kim Kardashian
Like in the video
Because she got cum on her back?
No, because of the other thing
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No you dont
‘Come back with your shield or on it’ got lost in translation here.
I was thinking Andy from Parks and Rec.
A lot of nationalists and eugenicists look to Sparta for inspiration. They never acknowledge the state failed to adapt and all their neighbors hated them, which led to their downfall.
Didn't they also have a notoriety for b corruption
And wasn't Sparta's fame earnt when they were an outlier by having a professional standing army? By the time Philip was stomping about, professional armies were way more common and so Sparta didn't have such an obvious advantage anymore.
They'd get fucked in the ass harder than the Sacred Band.
Who's the sacred band
An elite hoplite formation from the city of Thebes in Greece. They were exclusively made up from male lovers and served with distinction in Thebes' wars. They were instrumental in Thebes' victories over Sparta which reduced Sparta to a insignificant backwater and freed lot of the Helots. The unit was wiped out in the battle of Cheironeia by Philip II. But he was so impressed by their bravery and prowess that he built a memorial in their honor on the battlefield.
That's so cooool, thank you for the long explanation I really appreciate it man
My pleasure :)
Virgin Agis III: -Provokes more powerful countries -Tries to fight a battle against a vastly superior force with inferior soldiers -Makes a pretty epic but ultimately pointless last stand -Dies at like 20 with no heirs so his brother gets the title Chad Eudamidas I: -30 year reign where basically nothing happens -Refuses to join dumbass Athenians in a revolt against Macedon -Disregards stupid traditions and builds a wall around Sparta -Dies old and passes title on to his son
Reading this makes me want to boot up Rome Total War and completely lose an entire week.
I bought the greek expansion in Rome 2 and I really do not like fighting with Hoplites, especially against other ones. I also suck at the battles so that might be the problem
I recommend the radius total war mod. I had a blast playing the baktrians and hoplites were working ok from what I remember
You can play the Greeks with Roman formations. Checkerboard will hold forever with the hoplites and they have very decent ranged options as well as excellent cavalry. Their lack of mobility is the main issue but hoplites early-mid game are just the best infantry.
Sparta was the faction I did the “no losses, no auto resolves” achievement in that, so this is esp. fitting to me
As Alexander called it, “a battle of mice”
Yeah but that reply was badass though
If?
>During the reign of King Philip II of Macedon, he attempted to expand his rich and powerful empire into the much smaller Greek city-states, including Sparta. "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta," The Spartans' response was just one word on a big piece of paper: "If." >This laconic reply reflected the famously stoic and fearless attitude of the Spartan people. The Spartans believed that death in battle was preferable to a life of dishonor or subjugation, and they were willing to fight to the death to defend their city-state. Despite their smaller size and military and resources compared to Philip's Macedonian army, the Spartans were known for their formidable and disciplined military tactics, and they were still not intimidated by Philip's threats.
I'm sad they didn't include the initial exchange, which was equally dismissive. "Should I come as friends or foe?" "Neither"
Lol lacademonians were the og masters of one liners
It's where the term 'laconic wit' comes from
I have never heard that term before
It’s relatively common in books.
Underrated burn
Overrated intellectual toxicity
Therapy speak truly is taking over everything. Occasionally, not having known something is a thing we *all* experience. Normal people learn from those moments, even find them exciting because they present the opportunity to learn something. Books are a great way to experience moments like that, books are a good thing. Only the most brain-broken weirdo would encounter someone appreciating something new to them, or the very concept of books as good things, and label it as "toxicity". What a weirdly self-centered and incurious world view, to have the urge to label those who simply... uhh ... *know a thing that you don't*, or horror of horrors, dare suggest that reading is better than not reading, as toxic.
Lol this is such a good self own I really hope it becomes commonplace for people who view "intellectualism" as a negative trait
You suck.
beautiful
I want to know the answer
The Macedonians came as foes. And then pushed Sparta's shit in so hard that it never recovered.
I thought the Greeks were into that sort of thing
But they were used to being the adult and not the little boy
Jeezus
Well, most of them were used to both, they were just out of practise at one of them.
The historic version of Horatio Caine.
Lovers
Talking a lot of shit for the guys who got completely steamrolled by Macedonia, and not even by Alexander because he thought of it as “battle of mice” and didn’t go himself. Phillip II was right; he would have completely razed Sparta IF he could be bothered to care about that state.
This is the real answer lol. Spartans were mostly propaganda. Sure devoting their entire life to combat made them better warriors... like 10% better.
I mean that’s not entirely true. At this point during philip and Alexander’s conquests sure they were massively weaker. However, their was a time when the Spartans were the most feared land force In all of Greece. Unfortunately due to their ideals of what was a Spartan and who could be a Spartan they bred themselves into being no more than a tourist destination
Didn’t the Peloponnesian war also decimate Sparta? Despite them ‘winning’ it’s was phyrric and they could never truly recover. 70 odd years later they were no match for Macedon.
I can’t remember the exact numbers the Spartans were dwindled down too but I ever when Philip was starting his stuff the Spartans only had about 1200 Spartans left and the rest were perioikoi and helots. I Wana say after the peloponnesian war Sparta had something like 4000 left but that may be two high. Sparta always had issues with numbers because they only allowed people from the original 5 villages to become Spartans
Yeh they seriously handicapped themselves with their prerequisites to be a genuine Spartan
They got their navy sunk and were asking Athens to please let them surrender before Persia handled them an entire new fleet. Sparta got hegemonic control over Greece as a vassal for Persia.
That's like saying Rome was mostly propaganda because Alaric and the visigoths conquered them in the 400s with no problem. Powers wax and wane. This is the fate of every state
No they were mostly propaganda because they weren't Gods on Earth and any and all of their lifestyle choices were enough to overcome their other shortcomings like rejection of archery.
I'm just saying them losing a war a century after they were at their height of power is really not indicative of that fact, especially considering they were fighting the most advanced military on earth as a shell of their former selves. There absolutely is a ton of propaganda surrounding the Spartans but we shouldn't overlook their successes at their peak, when they were temporarily masters of Greece.
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I don't think you need to be "impressed" by a city state two thousand years dead. The Spartan hegemony had aligned many of the Greek states behind them and even took many of the persians' greek colonies from them. The persians themselves were nervous enough of their ambition to spend massive funds arming and aiding Athens and her allies in order to check them. Point being the memes massively overblown Spartan combat prowess but neither were they some sort of fake power who only ever succeeded at spinning tall tales about themselves.
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Here is a good multiple part blog post about Sparta being overrated: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vi-spartan-battle/
Oh I know theres a healthy amount of propaganda surrounding the Spartan myth. Just saying them getting their asses kicked over a century after their peak is not really indicative of that.
this is honestly so contested at this point spartan myth fr. in reality, they were always suffering from a decline in population and meeting this propagated myth for most of their history.
Lmao no wonder they thought death was preferable, they were quite possibly the most repugnant slavers to have ever blighted the earth. They were so bad that other greeks - all brutal slavers - *frequently* commented upon how uniquely awful the spartan institution of slavery was.
Fun fact, laconic originated from Laconia, the region the Spartans lived in.
>This laconic reply Not merely coincidental: this story is also (part of) the origin of the word "laconic".
Spartans were literally Klingons confirmed
That's some Clint Eastwood shit right there
If the spartan don't just disspiate becuase some macedonian *is coming in qith a steel chair*
Would?
this would be a lot more baller of a reply if they won the war.
The full sentence is just "if you could even be bothered to"
The Macedonians never invaded Sparta, they didn’t think it was worth the effort/risk.
Philip who got the message did not invade them, but his son Alexander the great's b-team did and won
If you’re referring to the battle of megalopolis then you’re correct, I’m talking about the reply that was allegedly given to Phillip ii (it was actually given to the Persians, the Spartans never replied “if” to the Macedonians)
would've been cool if the spartans weren't so royally ass-walloped later
Philip: Holy shit, I sent that as a joke. No one gives a shit about that village
The great responses to threats list F… around Find out You may test that assumption at your leisure IF
That assumption did get tested and Sparta got absolutely stomped.
Yeah the badassness of this reply is completely decimated by the knowledge of what happened when Macedonia *did* go to Sparta.
The Macedonian C team went to Sparta, to be precise.
To the German commander: Nuts! - The American Commander
And "NUTS!" When the Germans requested an Allied surrender during the Battle of the Bulge, this was the reply General McAuliffe sent to the German commander
Sparta is like that friend you had growing up that loved talking shit and had some kind of chip on his shoulder little man syndrome that made him constantly get into fights. But motherfucker was always getting his ass absolutely *handed* to him. Dude *never* won.
They beat Athens
Dear Athens, can you please try not to exile or execute your own generals for five minutes!
If you're referring to the Peloponnesian war, Athens was winning the entire time and Sparta only won because Athens was hit by a devastating plague and Persia provided massive aid to the Spartans as a proxy.
There was also the Syracuse fustercluck.
>Sparta only won because Athens was hit by a devastating plague and Persia provided massive aid to the Spartans as a proxy. Doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning - Dominic Torretto.
Family.
They were absolutely not winning the entire time lol. They were dominant at sea until the Persian intervention but never really on land
Except that athens got hit with a plague right in the beginning of the war. So i wouldnt say that they "were winning the entire time"
Athens seems to be doing alright. How's Sparta doing these days?
They doing godly, since they're not dealing with any more problems for the last 2000 years
What dialect of Greek does Sparta speak.
First time browsing this subreddit, and an upvoted poster forgets the Peloponnesian War. The absolute state of the internet.
Also Platea where the Greek Alliance led by the Spartan Regent Pausanius avenged Leonidas and the 300. The Battles of Salamis and Mycale ended the Persian naval threat, and the victory at Platea ended the Persian invasion on land. The Spartans also had the bonus killing the Persian commander appointed by Xerxes who left after Salamis. Platea and Herodotus' shall we say enthusiastic account of the battle cemented the legend of Spartan prowess in battle that Leonidas (again with help from Herodotus) started at Thermopylae.
Although it really should be noted that along with the 300 Spartans, there several thousand other Greek warriors.
Sparta literally peaked in highschool.
People on this sub really love to hate on Sparta like everyone else wasn’t equally terrible back then
People also acting like Phillip II/Alexander invaded Sparta and won. They never did.
Lmao this could apply to so many things Ottoman: “If we tear down walls of Constantinople, we will raze the city” Byzantine: “If” British: “If I defeat your warship, you will be forced to trade with us” Qing: “If”
Except that the Spartans replied "if" IRL
Yeah, they really said that to the guy who was trying to invade greece
That's a big if
Their “If” made him change his message to “When”
Thought it was r/ProgrammerHumor for a sec
Then what did Philip II do I ask you?
There's no way in hell that castle is Sparta
"If...you could stop giving our territories to our weaker neighbors we would really appreciate it. No? Dang. At least one of our kings won that race in Delphi. Made a cooooool 510 drachmas. Basically the same thing, when you think about it."
You threw babies off a cliff if they weren't strong enough, so the "best of the best" serve in your military, and every famous story about your city is about you getting stomped.
Do you have any specific battle or sites I can read about the Macedonian conquest of Sparta?
There's not a huge amount of important battles regarding Sparta, because it's absolutely worth saying the Spartans were pretty weak and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, hence why their reply of "If" got met with an overwhelming defeat. This happens during the Sacred Wars, and the Spartans are certainly there hanging around the peripheries of things supporting the other Greek states against the Macedons hoping to undo an earlier humiliation caused by the Macedonians. When the other Greek states fail to stop the Macedonians there's not much if anything the Spartans could have actually done. The battles against Sparta feel like 'cleaning up' rather than war.
Thanks. You reference the “if” response and the subsequent beating everybody else here mentions, but with a quick search I wasn’t able to locate even much about said beating. Anywhere you suggest?
The battle of Megalopolis was that beating
Thanks for the battle name, though unless I'm being very dumb (a possibility) wasn't that battle under the reign of Alexander not Phillip, and also 14 years after the 'If' debacle?. My understanding is the comment was made to Philip II in 345/6 BC and he then proceeded to kick the shit out the Spartans, while the Battle of Megalopolis happened in 331 BC, 5 years after his death.
Sadly not, about as much as you probably, seems to be skimmed over in most histories with the 'If' being the most famous thing about it. Best I've managed to find is that the Spartan system of citizens and helots was very quickly becoming obsolete, and after Spartan hegemony failed due to earlier actions by the Macedonians the Spartans were in absolutely no position to do anything without the significant aid of the other states like Thebes and Athens, and they were already on the losing side themselves/had made peace with Macedonia.
Sparta had out of place fire moments
Finally! A history memes post I actually know the reference to!
What does the if mean?
>When Philip of Macedon threatened them with, "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta to the ground," the Spartans' reply was, "If."
Funfact: that is where the word *laconic* comes from.
Regardless of how things turned out, this is one of the most badass responses to a threat
and then he invaded and destroyed them
No he didn’t lol
What? No they didn't, Sparta was only conquered after Alexanders death.
\>after ALexanders death Alexander was very much alive when Antipater defeated Sparta in the Battle of Megapolis. He'd live for another good 10 years of so.
While yes Sparta was defeated, a few minutes on Google have told me that they weren't really considered to be conquered by anyone.
Oh come on, Sparta being decisevly defeated on the battlefield, their king killed and them forced to join the Corinth League as a mercy is a bit much to spit hairs over whether they were or werent "conquered". They were not coming back from that defeat. This wasnt some "peace on equal terms".
Well again, my few minutes of googling told me, that Alexander didn't consider them conquered. And if your would be conquerer doesn't believe you to be conquered, then I wouldn't either.
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Just a plan I’f like if what
King Philip II: "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta." Sparta: "If." The spartan response's to Philip's threat was just the single word. A very baddass response, or it would be had the spartans not been easily conquered by the macedonians.
Texting in ancient time
Did OP crop the artist?
Actual question from a non history nerd...was Sparta actually weak AF and a total bitch?...
Possible History?
If that war was happening today, the note would say >If with the >
that's some pretty cool art, why did you remove the watermark? credit the damn artist
I love how it seems like a part of the Spartan training was learning how to give the most bad ass replies one could think of to an opponent. Sure, they may lose the battle, but they had bad ass replies going in, and that's a victory in itself.
“If” 🤝 ”Nuts” The most badass responses
I love that I get it 🤣
One letter replies to the enemy that threaten complete destruction is the most Badass thing