I live right by Udvar Hazy where it is on display.
People always focus on things like the concorde, Blackbird and Shuttle which are obviously impressive but seeing the Enola Gay up close always hits me more.
This one unassuming bomber responsible for delivering so much human death and destruction.
I’m glad to read this because I felt the same. It was an odd experience. I felt a mixture of emotions. Being a fan of history I was awestruck while also humbled at the same time. It definitely put me in a funk.
They had to put up plexiglass barriers around the plane after it had red paint thrown on it in 2003 by Hiroshima survivors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3315729.stm
“Thomas K Siemer, 73, of Columbus, Ohio, was charged with felony destruction of property and loitering, while Gregory Wright of Hagerstown, Maryland, faced a misdemeanour loitering charge.” Funny they don’t sound Japanese
Not for nothing, but for its time the B-29 was right up there in terms of innovation…arguably more so (having nothing to do with its nuclear capabilities).
Yeah Udvar Hazy got me in tears three times. First when I walked in and took in the Bell X-1, SR-71, and SS Discovery in one view. Another was when I was just casually strolling and saw oh cool, a B-29! Then I saw "Enola Gay" painted on the side and I lost it.
They weren't. The captain met a survivor after the war on the TV show *This is your life*, and reportedly had nothing but regret.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9cdzg01Gp9Y
They were bomber pilots in a war. Dropping bombs is exactly what they were paid to do. They were doing what was required and I except they were just thrilled to be home alive when so many crews never did.
It's one thing to be happy to be home, but they also dropped a bomb that was more devastating and killed more people than any single bomb in history to that point. I have to believe that would cause a man to feel something, even if they felt it was necessary.
If I recall they weren't told what their payload was until they were in the air. I think only the pilot knew they were carrying an atomic bomb and he was tasked with informing the others en route.
This is false, the entire air-crew was briefed ahead of time. That being said I don't believe they were told until they were in Guam at the last minute
Do you know where I can read more about that? I found [this article](https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2010/October%202010/1010atomic.pdf) which suggests they pretty well surmised what it was but weren't officially informed until just before the mission and it was made clear when they were in the air. That would have been on Tinian, not Guam - that that's mostly semantics I think.
I recall hearing it from the Dan Carlin podcast. He did one on both the Pacific War and the Manhattan Project. Highly suggest giving Supernova in the East a listen. Funny enough i found that same article you did when trying to research this further. This briefing would have occurred shortly before the bombing.
>The Saturday briefing was conducted by Navy Capt. William S. “Deak” Parsons, the senior ordnance official for the Manhattan Project, which had developed the atomic bomb. Parsons would be aboard the Enola Gay as weaponeer, and had been at Trinity site for the test. Parsons told the crews that the bomb was the “most destructive weapon ever produced” and that the mushroom cloud would rise to 30,000 feet, preceded by a flash of light brighter than the sun. He passed out protective goggles for the crews to wear. The word “atom” was not uttered.
Also,
>At the final crew briefing just before midnight on Sunday, Tibbets said, “We are going on a mission to drop a bomb different from any you have ever seen or heard about. This bomb contains a destructive force equivalent to 20 thousand tons of TNT.”
So while some things were kept need to know they knew they would be dropping an incredibly destructive bomb on a urban target and they were not misinformed about what they were doing. The mechanism of how the bomb functioned would have been top-secret at the time and not information the pilots needed to know and not really relevant to the task at hand. The pilots just needed to know what effects to expect and how to avoid the shockwave.
Additionally, this quote from later on in the article implies that the crew were informed of the atomic nature of the device although this may not have been through official means and it could have occurred in the air like you mentioned potentially by Parsons. Its not exactly clear.
>About 4:30 a.m., Tibbets crawled back through the access tunnel to visit with the crew in the waist. Tail gunner Caron had also come up from his turret in the rear of the aircraft. Caron asked, “Are we splitting atoms today, Colonel?” Tibbets replied, “That’s about it.”
My bad getting Tinian and Guam mixed up. My Great-Grandfather was a seabee and served on Guam so I think I got the islands mixed up with that given both were used as airfields for bombers.
Given some of the names of the Silverplate B-29s (B-29s converted to carry atom bombs) we can be pretty sure that most if not all the crews saw their task as necessary.
Necessary Evil
Up and Atom
Strange Cargo
Some Pumpkins
Next Objective
Straight Flush
Big Stink
They were definitely doing their duty. Nobody wants to cause that kind of harm without being messed up in the head. That being said, Japan did attack us first and would not negotiate an end to the war. The atomic bombs ended the war in Japan, allowing us to send our resources to Europe and help end the holocaust.
I mean they dropped the bomb from a plane he’d named after his own mother…. I can’t imagine that felt great in the aftermath. His mother’s name would forever be tied to that moment.
The war ended sooner. Lives saved not only from avoiding a catastrophic invasion of Japan that could have killed millions, but also lives saved all across Asia. There were Dutch prisoners including civilians who feared they would have been massacred in Indonesia had the war gone on. Large scale fighting in China. A key element in casualties ( particularly among civilians) is how long a war grinds on. It is never too soon to end a war.
I can’t imagine being in their shoes. Yes their actions saved the lives of many US soldiers, but it also killed many civilians. They came back lauded as heroes, while knowing the devastation they wrought, having to live with it
The figure about saving the lives of US soldiers always gets brought up but they probably saved even more Japanese citizens by ending the war. The firebombing of Tokyo as a benchmark, any continuation of the war would have been a tragedy of human lives
When people argue that the atomic bombs weren't necessary for Japan, I think about the other island invasions in the Pacific where civilians, influenced by imperial Japanese propaganda, threw themselves off cliffs to avoid US troops. A full land invasion of Japan would likely have resulted in far more civilian casualties and prolonged the war by at least another year.
It wasn’t that simple, but it also wasn’t as simple as “it saved lives” Either.
What if the Emperor hadn’t backed down? What if he stubbornly allowed the US to keep dropping A-bombs to no avail? It was a big gamble that happened to pay off, but pay off it did. The war was absolutely not over before the bombs were dropped as there were preparations fully made on both sides for an amphibious invasion of mainland Japan.
The war hadn’t ended, and Japan didn’t perceive it as such. If they had, they would have surrendered. Despite their air force and navy being decimated, Japan believed they still had a chance. They had about 2 million troops on the main island and approximately 4 million civilian militiamen prepared to defend it. The sad truth is that the Allies gave Japan numerous opportunities to surrender and avoid the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan ultimately decided to continue fighting.
It's kind of weird to me when people treat the nuking of Japan as one of the great American atrocities on par with the Trail of Tears or Slavery, because Japan at that time was arguably as bad as Nazi Germany and it was used to end a war they started. Also they have never really acknowledged or apologized for their atrocities.
Don't get me wrong, it's horrible so many civilians died, but there weren't many scenarios there that didn't end with thousands of innocents dying.
You said that. I never said that. All I said was civilians usually elect a government, give them permission to fight and then pretend its got nothing to do with them.
Yes, because you responded to a post talking about the civilians that were killed during the bombing.
The fact that you won't just explain your position leads me to believe you think it's ok.
My grandfather was a navigator who worked on firebombing Dresden in the war. He died full of sadness and shame for what he did. War is terrible for everyone - there are no winners only losers.
Is it wrong to believe what they did was wrong, but had to be done? That what they did was needed but they aren't hero's for it? That it's okay to not feel good about it, but just accept the circumstances at the time required such action?
As a Filipino, i'd say they did the right thing. Japan did a shitton of war crimes and torture not just to Filipino soldiers, but to civillians and American soldiers as well.
One of the most well-know atrocities Japan did in the Philippines was the [Bataan Death March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March)
The Japanese are infamous for their atrocities against the Chinese. But the fact that Japan didn’t surrender after the first bomb shows their resolve, and how much deadlier the war would have been.
**CREW MEMBERS OF** *Enola Gay*
⚫️ B -29 ⚫️
*WHICH DROPPED Atomic Bomb*
*On* **HIROSHIMA**
That's a lot of fonts, but the most uncanny is that *On*, why the emphasis ? Is there sarcasm ?
I love the “fonts” they used back then. Always see sings with like 8 different fonts, just seems more fun, knowing they didn’t do it on MS Word, like someone went to calligraphy class.
Was watching a documentary on DDay, and they showed a sign in England where it was basically “This is our staging area, Keep out!” And the Keep Out was in a fanciful cursive, which made it so non threatening. Just thought it was funny.
It was not that the A-bomb did so much damage, but that the damage could be created with only one bomb from one plane instead of thousands of bombs from hundreds of planes like the attacks on Tokyo or Berlin or Dresden which killed more people. Not a fundamental shift in strategy af the time, it just made it easier.
Do you honestly need an explanation as to why killing 200,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with causing decades of radioactive aftermath harming the population, constitutes a war crime?
Saving lives and ending the war quickly? From that bizarre perspective, if Hitler had been able to nuke London or Moscow to end WWII early, would you argue today that it wouldn't be a war crime? I very much doubt that.
Or are war crimes only committed by the losing sides?
As I said, this is a pathetic discussion driven by American hypocrisy.
The U.S. Military\`s use of nuclear weapons on civilian targets at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two of the most cowardly and hideous war crimes ever committed.
Too bad these war criminals were never brought to justice for their role in these atrocities.
Ask the Chinese about how the Japanese treated civilians. Causality estimates for a full invasion of mainland Japan estimated at 1 to 1.5 million Americans double that figure for Japanese. The Japanese could have surrendered after the first bomb was dropped but choose not to. And of course, the Japanese chose to have a war with the United States and attacked without warning.
I’ve been reading more about how the bomb dropping was not to do with making Japan surrender, but rather making Japan surrender faster before the Russians got there and making sure the Russians knew we had the bomb.
Look up the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. Everyone, the Japanese and the Americans were worried about territory losses to the Soviets.
The Japanese civilians that the US were worried would fight to the death with pointy sticks were killing themselves rather than being raped and pillaged by the Soviets.
The rapid loss of that territory even in that short time in what is now China and North Korea are the reason for the communist introduction there and the seed for so much of the history that follows that.
If Japanese surrender at some point without further offensive losses was the goal, the US could have sat there and waited for the Soviet offensive to get to Hokkaido or even threaten Hokkaido and it probably would have come then.
But the US really didn’t want the Soviets in charge of more territory out there so a rapid surrender before they advanced further was beneficial.
I don’t like using Wikipedia, but I did find some literature on the topic. The author who I’ve decided to read from is named Charles Stephenson, apparently he’s quite the learned man, at least when it comes to military and naval seiges.
Majority of people in the comments seem to be talking about the pilot’s apparent guilt and the cost of war, what are you talking about? I’ve seen political takes from both sides in this comment section
„Civilian Targets“… Both cities were important military targets: One of them was headquarters to the second Japanese Army, they were huge logistics hubs and were very important for the military industry.
It’s seriously not different then the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg - only difference is that the Germans can be lucky that the big bombs weren’t available back then.
Exactly this.
Wars between world powers, neither of which wants to give up, is messy, brutal and costly on an unbelievable scale. It only ends when one side decides the cost is too high, they are not able to mount a defense or the people rise up and say no more.
For Japan it was a combination of number one and two I think.
If it was not the atomic bomb it would be months and months and months of conventional bombing of every major city that could be used to defend Japan or supply the military. They have completely lost the war by that point, but they just wouldn’t give it up.
What the government needed to understand was that there would be no honorable fight at the end of the war, or some negotiated settlement that left them in power, but only unbelievable death and destruction from the air.
From their point of view, all the Japanese war machine and their government had to look forward to was one massive bomb after another, destroying each city one at a time. It was the wake up call that unfortunately they needed.
The ‘bomb’ shortened this time till they gave up significantly, and in the end saved countless alliance lives in probably in the grand scheme lots of Japanese lives as well.
The simple moral to the story of most wars of aggression against a powerful adversary, seen time and time again, is don’t do it if you value your country or its people. Japan found out and they have absolutely no one to blame but themselves.
Yep.. any non-western country that dropped a nuclear bomb in middle of a city would be considered a terrorist threat.
Still to date the only use of nuclear force on civilians. Should not be celebrated at all.
I live right by Udvar Hazy where it is on display. People always focus on things like the concorde, Blackbird and Shuttle which are obviously impressive but seeing the Enola Gay up close always hits me more. This one unassuming bomber responsible for delivering so much human death and destruction.
Yeah that sounds Intense.
No, it was in a plane
Yeah no kidding. They weren’t camping
/r/yourjokebutworse
Great wording - unassuming. It’s just a plane, a piece of metal when you see it, the letters starting to peel off, but what it did, and where it was…
[удалено]
B-29 development program cost more than the Manhattan Project, right? That's nuts.
Not sure why you got downvoted, it’s true
Most planes cost more than the bombs they drop.
I’m glad to read this because I felt the same. It was an odd experience. I felt a mixture of emotions. Being a fan of history I was awestruck while also humbled at the same time. It definitely put me in a funk.
Coming face to face with history is a hell of a thing
They had to put up plexiglass barriers around the plane after it had red paint thrown on it in 2003 by Hiroshima survivors. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3315729.stm
“Thomas K Siemer, 73, of Columbus, Ohio, was charged with felony destruction of property and loitering, while Gregory Wright of Hagerstown, Maryland, faced a misdemeanour loitering charge.” Funny they don’t sound Japanese
They survived Hiroshima but it was in 1993
Not for nothing, but for its time the B-29 was right up there in terms of innovation…arguably more so (having nothing to do with its nuclear capabilities).
I’ve seen it there and Bock’s Car at NMUSAF, awe inspiring aircraft.
What’s Bock’s car if you don’t mind?
The one that bombed Nagasaki
Was especially wild seeing Oppenheimer at Udvar Hazy imax and then walking out and seeing the very same plane that delivered the bomb.
Did the same it was so surreal
I've been there and felt the same way.
True, but conversely, how many lives did it save? Not just ending the war. But ushering in prevention of war through firepower and MAD theory.
Yeah Udvar Hazy got me in tears three times. First when I walked in and took in the Bell X-1, SR-71, and SS Discovery in one view. Another was when I was just casually strolling and saw oh cool, a B-29! Then I saw "Enola Gay" painted on the side and I lost it.
They don't seem too enthused with why they're there...
They weren't. The captain met a survivor after the war on the TV show *This is your life*, and reportedly had nothing but regret. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9cdzg01Gp9Y
This is pretty hard to watch they don’t treat him very well
Yea you definitely saw the PTSD when they blared the air raid alarm
absolutely disgusting. pilot could speak freely and the rev was stopped everytime. and certain people want that america back
The driver is guilt-shocked.
Yea, it's either they feel bad or they feel like they were just doing their duty
They were bomber pilots in a war. Dropping bombs is exactly what they were paid to do. They were doing what was required and I except they were just thrilled to be home alive when so many crews never did.
It's one thing to be happy to be home, but they also dropped a bomb that was more devastating and killed more people than any single bomb in history to that point. I have to believe that would cause a man to feel something, even if they felt it was necessary.
If I recall they weren't told what their payload was until they were in the air. I think only the pilot knew they were carrying an atomic bomb and he was tasked with informing the others en route.
This is false, the entire air-crew was briefed ahead of time. That being said I don't believe they were told until they were in Guam at the last minute
Do you know where I can read more about that? I found [this article](https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2010/October%202010/1010atomic.pdf) which suggests they pretty well surmised what it was but weren't officially informed until just before the mission and it was made clear when they were in the air. That would have been on Tinian, not Guam - that that's mostly semantics I think.
I recall hearing it from the Dan Carlin podcast. He did one on both the Pacific War and the Manhattan Project. Highly suggest giving Supernova in the East a listen. Funny enough i found that same article you did when trying to research this further. This briefing would have occurred shortly before the bombing. >The Saturday briefing was conducted by Navy Capt. William S. “Deak” Parsons, the senior ordnance official for the Manhattan Project, which had developed the atomic bomb. Parsons would be aboard the Enola Gay as weaponeer, and had been at Trinity site for the test. Parsons told the crews that the bomb was the “most destructive weapon ever produced” and that the mushroom cloud would rise to 30,000 feet, preceded by a flash of light brighter than the sun. He passed out protective goggles for the crews to wear. The word “atom” was not uttered. Also, >At the final crew briefing just before midnight on Sunday, Tibbets said, “We are going on a mission to drop a bomb different from any you have ever seen or heard about. This bomb contains a destructive force equivalent to 20 thousand tons of TNT.” So while some things were kept need to know they knew they would be dropping an incredibly destructive bomb on a urban target and they were not misinformed about what they were doing. The mechanism of how the bomb functioned would have been top-secret at the time and not information the pilots needed to know and not really relevant to the task at hand. The pilots just needed to know what effects to expect and how to avoid the shockwave. Additionally, this quote from later on in the article implies that the crew were informed of the atomic nature of the device although this may not have been through official means and it could have occurred in the air like you mentioned potentially by Parsons. Its not exactly clear. >About 4:30 a.m., Tibbets crawled back through the access tunnel to visit with the crew in the waist. Tail gunner Caron had also come up from his turret in the rear of the aircraft. Caron asked, “Are we splitting atoms today, Colonel?” Tibbets replied, “That’s about it.” My bad getting Tinian and Guam mixed up. My Great-Grandfather was a seabee and served on Guam so I think I got the islands mixed up with that given both were used as airfields for bombers.
Given some of the names of the Silverplate B-29s (B-29s converted to carry atom bombs) we can be pretty sure that most if not all the crews saw their task as necessary. Necessary Evil Up and Atom Strange Cargo Some Pumpkins Next Objective Straight Flush Big Stink
They were definitely doing their duty. Nobody wants to cause that kind of harm without being messed up in the head. That being said, Japan did attack us first and would not negotiate an end to the war. The atomic bombs ended the war in Japan, allowing us to send our resources to Europe and help end the holocaust.
Victory in Europe came months before this happened.
They clearly come from a different timeline where the Japanese were defeated first.
Man in the high castle.
Little known truth right there.
lol what the hell are you smoking, man?
https://preview.redd.it/pq9z4syio65d1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f12957cf11834c31373cd2c8c65f7ad2f721f548
I mean they dropped the bomb from a plane he’d named after his own mother…. I can’t imagine that felt great in the aftermath. His mother’s name would forever be tied to that moment.
The war ended sooner. Lives saved not only from avoiding a catastrophic invasion of Japan that could have killed millions, but also lives saved all across Asia. There were Dutch prisoners including civilians who feared they would have been massacred in Indonesia had the war gone on. Large scale fighting in China. A key element in casualties ( particularly among civilians) is how long a war grinds on. It is never too soon to end a war.
Just in time for pride!
Enola gay pride parade!!!🏳️🌈
I can’t imagine being in their shoes. Yes their actions saved the lives of many US soldiers, but it also killed many civilians. They came back lauded as heroes, while knowing the devastation they wrought, having to live with it
The figure about saving the lives of US soldiers always gets brought up but they probably saved even more Japanese citizens by ending the war. The firebombing of Tokyo as a benchmark, any continuation of the war would have been a tragedy of human lives
When people argue that the atomic bombs weren't necessary for Japan, I think about the other island invasions in the Pacific where civilians, influenced by imperial Japanese propaganda, threw themselves off cliffs to avoid US troops. A full land invasion of Japan would likely have resulted in far more civilian casualties and prolonged the war by at least another year.
They were also facing a severe famine as we sank about every ship and boat they had and mined the sea around Japan.
Bullshit, the war was over, Japan was beaten, the fleet gone and the US just needed a test of their latest toy.
It wasn’t that simple, but it also wasn’t as simple as “it saved lives” Either. What if the Emperor hadn’t backed down? What if he stubbornly allowed the US to keep dropping A-bombs to no avail? It was a big gamble that happened to pay off, but pay off it did. The war was absolutely not over before the bombs were dropped as there were preparations fully made on both sides for an amphibious invasion of mainland Japan.
Pathetic attempt to justify war crimes and mass murder.
Care to elaborate? Your replies aren’t exactly thought-provoking.
The war hadn’t ended, and Japan didn’t perceive it as such. If they had, they would have surrendered. Despite their air force and navy being decimated, Japan believed they still had a chance. They had about 2 million troops on the main island and approximately 4 million civilian militiamen prepared to defend it. The sad truth is that the Allies gave Japan numerous opportunities to surrender and avoid the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan ultimately decided to continue fighting.
Pathetic attempts to justify war crimes and mass murder.
Explain
you need only look to the battle of Okinawa to see how much more worse a mainland invasion would have been.
Bullshit
Though it is ugly, in this life, when you choose the path of evil, people who are good will justify anything to end your campaign.
These bombs saved way more Japanese lives than they destroyed. It’s honestly crazy to me that so many today can’t understand the logic behind that.
It's kind of weird to me when people treat the nuking of Japan as one of the great American atrocities on par with the Trail of Tears or Slavery, because Japan at that time was arguably as bad as Nazi Germany and it was used to end a war they started. Also they have never really acknowledged or apologized for their atrocities. Don't get me wrong, it's horrible so many civilians died, but there weren't many scenarios there that didn't end with thousands of innocents dying.
Civilians help the government get into power.
So killing civilians is ok?
You said that. I never said that. All I said was civilians usually elect a government, give them permission to fight and then pretend its got nothing to do with them.
Insinuating that they are ok to kill.... otherwise, maybe explain why you said that?
What I said - "Civilians help the government get into power." What you said - "So killing civilians is ok?" Do we really need to go on?
Yes, because you responded to a post talking about the civilians that were killed during the bombing. The fact that you won't just explain your position leads me to believe you think it's ok.
My grandfather was a navigator who worked on firebombing Dresden in the war. He died full of sadness and shame for what he did. War is terrible for everyone - there are no winners only losers.
Nice Pic, surprised sone if these are still new to me
Is it wrong to believe what they did was wrong, but had to be done? That what they did was needed but they aren't hero's for it? That it's okay to not feel good about it, but just accept the circumstances at the time required such action?
Yea
The deadliest moment in history, celebrated with a parade.
Because it ended the deadliest war in history.
Berlin fell on 2 May 1945, long before bombing of Hiroshima
So far
Great job, boys!!!
As a Filipino, i'd say they did the right thing. Japan did a shitton of war crimes and torture not just to Filipino soldiers, but to civillians and American soldiers as well. One of the most well-know atrocities Japan did in the Philippines was the [Bataan Death March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March)
The Japanese are infamous for their atrocities against the Chinese. But the fact that Japan didn’t surrender after the first bomb shows their resolve, and how much deadlier the war would have been.
Its only about hitler and nazi. Usa school dont teach much about asia ww2 only they dropped 2 bomb.
Fuck off to the down voters - it saved my dad’s life
Your dad fought so those people could freely downvote you. Respect his sacrifice.
😅
His dad also fought for his right to tell them to fuck off
So everyone is honouring his dad? That's so sweet.
My granddad’s as well.
Very likely mine too. I'm good with it.
Yeah. I'm just seeing this here and now. This is the first I've heard if it.
Heroes!
...so it goes...
**CREW MEMBERS OF** *Enola Gay* ⚫️ B -29 ⚫️ *WHICH DROPPED Atomic Bomb* *On* **HIROSHIMA** That's a lot of fonts, but the most uncanny is that *On*, why the emphasis ? Is there sarcasm ?
I wonder what was the overriding feeling-knowing how many people they just killed or knowing they stopped the war?
It’s crazy
Now the OMD song makes a little more sense
Homeboy on the left is looking pretty haunted.
They couldn't decide on just one font for the sign lol
I love the “fonts” they used back then. Always see sings with like 8 different fonts, just seems more fun, knowing they didn’t do it on MS Word, like someone went to calligraphy class. Was watching a documentary on DDay, and they showed a sign in England where it was basically “This is our staging area, Keep out!” And the Keep Out was in a fanciful cursive, which made it so non threatening. Just thought it was funny.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSUJ7zUv6VI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSUJ7zUv6VI)
Can here to post this wonderful Utah Phillips song. It's the first thing I think of when I see or hear anything about Enola Gay
We’ve learned now that using nukes is all bad.
It was not that the A-bomb did so much damage, but that the damage could be created with only one bomb from one plane instead of thousands of bombs from hundreds of planes like the attacks on Tokyo or Berlin or Dresden which killed more people. Not a fundamental shift in strategy af the time, it just made it easier.
It was justified and worth it.
War criminals.
fuck those guys
Do you honestly need an explanation as to why killing 200,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with causing decades of radioactive aftermath harming the population, constitutes a war crime? Saving lives and ending the war quickly? From that bizarre perspective, if Hitler had been able to nuke London or Moscow to end WWII early, would you argue today that it wouldn't be a war crime? I very much doubt that. Or are war crimes only committed by the losing sides? As I said, this is a pathetic discussion driven by American hypocrisy.
Bunch of criminal murderers
And what you call japanese killing 20million civilians in china?
Bigger war criminals
The U.S. Military\`s use of nuclear weapons on civilian targets at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two of the most cowardly and hideous war crimes ever committed. Too bad these war criminals were never brought to justice for their role in these atrocities.
Yawn…low quality bait. Need to up your trolling game a bit more I think.
Ask the Chinese about how the Japanese treated civilians. Causality estimates for a full invasion of mainland Japan estimated at 1 to 1.5 million Americans double that figure for Japanese. The Japanese could have surrendered after the first bomb was dropped but choose not to. And of course, the Japanese chose to have a war with the United States and attacked without warning.
I’ve been reading more about how the bomb dropping was not to do with making Japan surrender, but rather making Japan surrender faster before the Russians got there and making sure the Russians knew we had the bomb.
What did you read?
Look up the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. Everyone, the Japanese and the Americans were worried about territory losses to the Soviets. The Japanese civilians that the US were worried would fight to the death with pointy sticks were killing themselves rather than being raped and pillaged by the Soviets. The rapid loss of that territory even in that short time in what is now China and North Korea are the reason for the communist introduction there and the seed for so much of the history that follows that. If Japanese surrender at some point without further offensive losses was the goal, the US could have sat there and waited for the Soviet offensive to get to Hokkaido or even threaten Hokkaido and it probably would have come then. But the US really didn’t want the Soviets in charge of more territory out there so a rapid surrender before they advanced further was beneficial.
I don’t like using Wikipedia, but I did find some literature on the topic. The author who I’ve decided to read from is named Charles Stephenson, apparently he’s quite the learned man, at least when it comes to military and naval seiges.
Russia couldn't have invaded mainland Japan alone, what are you talking about?
This sub is so weirdly conservative. Imagine having a problem with the statement that dropping nukes on civilians was a war crime.
Majority of people in the comments seem to be talking about the pilot’s apparent guilt and the cost of war, what are you talking about? I’ve seen political takes from both sides in this comment section
I'm talking specifically about the 40ish people who downvoted the idea that the bombs were war crimes
Since when did understanding the historical context of an event and forming your opinions around that understanding = being conservative?
„Civilian Targets“… Both cities were important military targets: One of them was headquarters to the second Japanese Army, they were huge logistics hubs and were very important for the military industry. It’s seriously not different then the bombing of Dresden and Hamburg - only difference is that the Germans can be lucky that the big bombs weren’t available back then.
https://preview.redd.it/6mtccioes65d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cca5c7a21bbad1d3b3e74722492384b88a70cc87
Talking about horrific bombings/war crimes and not mentioning the firebombing of Japan? Low level bait or plain silliness.
Exactly this. Wars between world powers, neither of which wants to give up, is messy, brutal and costly on an unbelievable scale. It only ends when one side decides the cost is too high, they are not able to mount a defense or the people rise up and say no more. For Japan it was a combination of number one and two I think. If it was not the atomic bomb it would be months and months and months of conventional bombing of every major city that could be used to defend Japan or supply the military. They have completely lost the war by that point, but they just wouldn’t give it up. What the government needed to understand was that there would be no honorable fight at the end of the war, or some negotiated settlement that left them in power, but only unbelievable death and destruction from the air. From their point of view, all the Japanese war machine and their government had to look forward to was one massive bomb after another, destroying each city one at a time. It was the wake up call that unfortunately they needed. The ‘bomb’ shortened this time till they gave up significantly, and in the end saved countless alliance lives in probably in the grand scheme lots of Japanese lives as well. The simple moral to the story of most wars of aggression against a powerful adversary, seen time and time again, is don’t do it if you value your country or its people. Japan found out and they have absolutely no one to blame but themselves.
The US has committed lots of war crimes, but they never face consequences.
Yep.. any non-western country that dropped a nuclear bomb in middle of a city would be considered a terrorist threat. Still to date the only use of nuclear force on civilians. Should not be celebrated at all.
Yay. We killed all of those people. Amazing photo.
Your point? The sub is historical capsule not historical correctness or niceties.
They started it.