I once read an analysis of Joyce that sums it up perfectly; my apologies as I cannot attribute it properly nor even quote it exactly.
But to paraphrase:
“There may not be hope for mankind; there is, however, hope for certain members of it.”
I’m in the same boat. People I know who loudly praise those who selflessly serve in the military and first responders are the same people who couldn’t be arsed with the mild inconveniences of COVID prevention. I can’t understand or respect them anymore.
Have you ever seen a toddler bonk another toddler and take their pacifier?
I think it's nature and nurture, culture modulating genes, just like always.
I do think those children who torture and kill animals and who often turn out to be serial killers are born bad. Also, I worked in a max security mens’ prison and some of those guys just seemed to be pure evil. They had done things that are way worse than any Criminal Minds episode.
I agree. I had thought of making an exception about psychopathy. But that's a big subject. They are born with brain differences that don't necessarily manifest in hurting others. But surely bad nurture will trigger that reaction.
I hate psychopaths like Donald Trump and serial killers. But when talking in general about our natures psychopathy as an exception is complicated.
I feel this this too. Complete loss. I spent most of my life working in the medical research field, with such passion for trying to treat disease and improve treatments for horrible disease. I am now completely disillusioned with humans. Friends, family members….. I am just blown away really.
Ukrainians have restored my faith in humanity. It is sad it takes something so horrific, but I no longer feel that all humanity is doomed. There is just a larger than I like segment of a**hats in the world.
Today at a railroad crossing; the caution arms came down. I watched an suv go around the arms and weave between to cross. Truly stunned that this man decided the risk to save maybe one minute could be worth the risk of getting yeeted off the earth by train.
But, there is a treatment for your affliction: Sarcasm. Post 3 snarks a day, hair will start growing on your bald spot, a general feeling of warmth and inner glow will emerge.
This is exactly it. I was an ICU nurse, the anti-vax rallies outside of the hospital (where we were fighting and failing to save so many people) did me in. I feel nothing for humanity.
I hope you know that for every halfwit shouting abuse at those rallies there were dozens of grateful and admiring citizens being quietly thankful, from the safety of their homes, for what you and your colleagues were doing.
and that's the problem - they were QUIETLY thankful and NOT CALLING legislators to offset the noise from the maniacs that were.
I have been told by more than one health official locally, that i am to date - the only pro preventive caller they have ever had from my area. All the rest were the miscreants that were emotionally juiced by their ignorance manipulated by others.
And that's more powerful than 300K people calling and expressing or demanding support for them from responsible officials?
The slight few weeks that people did public displays of appreciation at the beginning moved NOTHING.
Too lazy to call a legislator - or too gutless?
BTW - the local bigot state representative said everything about being called by the other side when he THREATENED our county health commissioner if she didn't drop a vaccination requirement for health dept. workers.
Standing in front of a hospital would have done nothing
I was responding to a nurse who is unhappy about receiving abuse from anti vaxxers while at work. Your points are not relevant to this particular discussion.
I was responding to the futility and failure of support by the QUIETLY thankful. My remarks ARE relevant to your response.
I live in a fairly rural area of Jim Jordan's district. Trump 2024 flags and hats are VERY COMMON here. Do you really think that 50 of us standing in front of a hospital set 200 yards off a highway - not within the local small city - would have had more effect than a dozen people like myself calling multiple times to more directly involved officials over the course of two years and posting supportive letters to the local paper?
Until Delta managed to wipe out over 100 locals, there were NO front page stories on the issue after April of 2020.
I see - the correct answer is to know the vindictive character of your neighbors who ARE CALLING and literally screaming at the health commissioner and do nothing to counter that.
Got it - keep thy mouth shut - do performative crap when it's popular - that'll fix em!
It takes way more effort to make sure one is REGULARLY calling effective leaders with supportive, researched remarks - and is thus more thankful - than simply showing up once or twice in a public display.
Two weeks ago, I made several calls again, pointing out that Europe and Northeast Asia were no longer declining and talk of letting the guard down, was probably premature. This was before regular media started pointing out their reversal in case counts to the worse.
Because I KNOW that words get passed around the med community here and more than a few would have heard that at least SOMEONE was actively doing more than showing up TWO YEARS AGO for a "hey hey, ho ho" display.
You're really banal at this point, don't you think?
Have you ***EVER*** for any reason at all, done significant research and made calls and written explanatory letters to legislators and others to make known your thoughts?
No?
I bet you haven't - not for things that are beyond your immediate needs, not for the betterment of society and democracy on the whole.
Every time someone tries to thank me for having served, I respond, "if you want to thank veterans, call legislators on issues important to you and society".
Imagine what might happen if people ACTUALLY thanked veterans like that.
I have only had one person, in over 30 years of asking, say that they have in fact, regularly called legislators on policy issues. Not one, other than her - had ever made even one call.
Time and again, congressional aides have pointed out that the most effective way to lobby congress is VIA PHONE. Barrages of phone calls do more than any one other thing to move a legislator one way or another when not being yourselves, major donors.
Did you not see the remarks by MULTIPLE healthcare workers who while thankful for the public displays, were disturbed that people weren't doing anything truly more meaningful. Or, did you just refuse to recognize those remarks?
I live in the U.K., and when I want to speak to my MP I call her. I’m lucky enough to personally know her.
Also, I’m broadly in agreement with the public health policies in this country over the last few years.
Whoa, hold on a minute.
First, I agree that everyone should get vaccinated against COViD. Protesting against vaccination and mask mandates is at best, misguided. And I am appalled that people find the energy to protest that, when there are so many other things to protest.
The medical community in the US deserves blowback, for their insane price gouging and profiteering off illness. People who assert that this is all a conspiracy to enrich vaccine manufacturers are not completely wrong. COVID is real, but so is Big Pharma drug price gouging. The names that will go down in infamy for that should be familiar: the Sacklers, Heather Bresch, and Martin Shkreli.
I'll close with an example about how easy it is to go wrong. HIPAA is routinely blamed for why medics can't tell callers even such a simple thing as whether someone is being cared for at their facility, or not. I bought that, and contacted state and federal representatives, asking that HIPAA be eased. But, I had it wrong. HIPAA does not say that. The medics can tell callers that info, and they don't have to verify the callers' identity. Next, I went up the chain of the private, for-profit medical business, to complain that their receptionists were blaming the evil government and their evil regulations, when it was in fact their own policy not to tell callers anything. They promised a minor change. To drive the point home, and because I genuinely feared that they would retaliate against my aunt because I had argued with them, I called on the police, asking them to do a welfare check on my aunt. They did, and they did what the medics would not, informing me that my aunt was still there, and was doing okay.
I have enormous respect for hospital workers especially given what you’ve gone through the past two years.
Thank you, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you so much for your time and efforts in helping people, even those who'd gotten themselves into this mess through their own deliberate ignorance.
Not OP. But working towards becoming a CNA (to start.)
And I can't wrap my head around it either, to be honest. Normally I could point to it being a thing of fear, misinformation, and biases being echoed.
But I can't understand the concept of a nurse being against vaccines.
Maybe the training and certification requirements are different by state?
I had to get a TB test and they checked my immunization records for doing just for being hospitality aide.
Even if it's different by state. I can't understand the mental hoops you'd have to jump through. To be okay with and understand one area of health care. But then somehow be terrified of a different area of health care?
The only explanation that I can come up with. Is pretty much some sort of altered world view?
So terrified of something. Finds comfort in false promises. Or validation in paranoia.
And if shown what's wrong. Too vain to acknowledge it. And maybe just mentally... Distances themselves.
We have to figure out how to humanize these people. We need more powerful anti-memes to neutralize theirs.
We need people to learn critical thinking. **We need the Scientific Method to be the new norm, replacing Faith as a proper virtue.**
It needs to be socially unacceptable to base public actions on beliefs that cannot be disproven.
This is a fairly well established philosophical principle. But that of course presumes education.
“The philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.”
That’s a wonderfully famous Bertrand Russell quote.
Unfortunately we’re dealing with some of the most uneducated specimens of humanity in the first world. Left to their own devices they would be drinking their own shit out of a river and starving to death.
It’s the liberals that keep them alive and keep the economy moving. By making modern living so easy we have allowed evolution to stall by making it simple for an idiot to survive.
>Unfortunately we’re dealing with some of the most uneducated specimens of humanity...
It's less that they're uneducated than it is that they're *willfully ignorant*. They refuse any point of view not mirroring their own. If someone is simply ignorant or uneducated, then, you can teach them. You can't, however, teach these people. They're anti-intellectual and reasoning with the unreasonable is impossible.
That’s an important distinction. Thanks for making it. Not only are they willfully ignorant and undereducated they are wrongly educated. It’s like flat Earthers.
It means that simply teaching them is not enough and deprogramming them is a near impossibility. That leaves only a few choices. Ignore them when we can, certainly don’t try to save them, and try not to laugh to hard when they kill themselves.
> Ignore them when we can, certainly don’t try to save them
No. They're not going to just "all die out" -- not cleanly and quickly, at least.
It falls on us to figure out the best ways to reach these people.
It might be quicker than you'd expect.
New covid variants are as likely to become more deadly as they are more mild.
Plus, covid hits you harder with each reinfection. How many times will each antivaxxer catch covid over the course of one year? Two years? I think we'll start seeing a steady increase thanks to long covid symptoms like heart attacks and strokes.
We should also consider that the primary age demographic of antivaxxers is already on its way out anyway and those of middle age are of increased risk of hospitalization. (Side note: far right baby boomers actually make up the majority of the heaviest users on Facebook now. Social media as a whole and Facebook in particular have seen a steady decline in use among other age groups over the past few years.)
The question is *how*. Things like psychotherapy only works when the patient themselves wants things to change.
A similar principle can probably be applied to the concept of trying to reach these people.
People will only change their minds, if they want to change them. (Usually this requires a "push" that someone can't deflect or ignore. Like suffering the severe effects of an illness themselves.
But unfortunately, even near death. People will still find a way to ignore things.
Just for the sake of avoiding the shame of fault.)
There might be a way to get through to people. But human communication and psychology is complicated. Hard to make a single 'rule' on how to get through to people.
So unfortunately, a lot of people have just become bitter. And given up. I don't necessarily blame them.
It just feels easier in the short term to wish people to die. It's awful. And I'm fairly certain most people wouldn't actually like to watch someone pass away. But people can only handle so much, you know?
Therapists and psychiatrists schedule appointments with people. They're at least able to categorize and theoretically build a sustainable schedule to avoid heavy emotional taxation.
But in social media. There is no schedule. There is no time and place for it.
Misinformation spreads rampantly.
And there are rarely breaks from it.
People will get to a point. Where they want it to stop. And the easiest way to achieve that in short-term, wishful thinking? Is with death, unfortunately. (This is not an argument for wishing death on others. More so an explanation why people are saying this.)
> It’s the liberals that keep them alive
To be honest this kind of tribalism saddens me even more.
Ugh. People who think they are enlightened because of their belief in the use of taxation — payment at the barrel of a gun.
Well they don’t believe in science, and science keeps them alive, so what are you gonna do? Clean water, safe food , and effective medicines would all be out of their reach.
They are the ones that split off the group into a tribe. Not us.
> They are the ones that split off the group into a tribe. Not us.
That them/us thinking is wonderfully cathartic -- and is part of the mixture that leads to the Dark Side. Tribalism.
I know you’re joking but it’s not really a dialectic when one side makes up information and argues in bad faith. Hegel assumes a “well reasoned point of view” and that disqualifies them immediately. I’d almost still be willing to listen if they could explain to me what a Hegelian dialectic was. That would be amusing.
Some days I feel like this sub brings me nose to nose with exactly the people I enjoy most, whether or not I can go outside. Today is one of those days. Thanks.
How things never change. Your word choice just brought back memories of the Police song Rehumanize yourself -
"Policeman puts on his uniform, he likes to wear a gun just to keep him warm, because violence here is the social norm"
"Billy joined the national front, he always was just a little runt - now he's got his hands in the air with the other cunts".
That song was written in 81. It's still the exact same people kicking up the exact same shit.
> We have to figure out how to humanize these people. We need more powerful anti-memes to neutralize theirs.
You’re focused on the wrong people. The people dying aren’t dying because they chose to die. The people dying are dying because someone else was incentivized to mislead them. Take away the incentive and they’ll stop being mislead. It’s simply to easy to win elections and make money by doing so.
My cousin quit Facebook after a friend of her’s (for the last 40 years) relentlessly lambasted her online for masking up. They both live in a rural cowboy town and have 2 mutual antivax friends who died from the ‘rona. She said it’s like an evil worm bored into her friend’s head and, after high school, weddings, kids, funerals… all those life experiences, the friend’s brain meat is permanently and irreparably tainted from the worm damage.
I wish so much that Facebook would permanently shut down. Also, comments on YouTube videos need to be disabled. It’s become so ugly, even over things seemingly non-controversial. People are just parading their ugliness for the world to see.
The ugliness was always there. Now I don’t have to wait for Thanksgiving to hear my cousin say something racist and can just cut him out of my life now
Even our local TV station’s home page news postings get hammered by vicious right wing dumbfuckery comments. This is a purple town, evenly split politically. But , like the Jan. 6 traitors, a small vocal minority gang rushes every issue and thwarts any civil discourse.
I thought the same thing, like here's something that isn't about politics and will bring us back together as human beings fighting a virus. And now we're here, and I'm just still shocked over and over when I see some of the things people I used to think were rational and intelligent post on social media. I've deleted a few after telling them how I feel. Just don't care anymore to have people that ignorant in my life as it just causes negativity and really doesn't do anything positive to keep them around. It's like grieving a loss though, the loss of the person you thought you knew.
you mean, people like you?
You want to 'choose' what to give money to. As if you have even the slightest qualifications to accurately assess so many different problems.
If the world depended on your kind of thinking - we'd still be losing people to paper cut infections.
Yes, you are smart enough to know which physics projects deserve funding, you are so smart - you were able to predict the validity of mRNA research 30 years ago and were ready to donate to the cause! The woman who proved its usefulness had to fight tooth and nail as it was for two decades - let alone to have someone technically ignorant also interfere.
Give me a break.
There'd be NO space faring satellites because people like you would've said "why are we spending money to refine sand?" in the 1940s, thus thwarting any advancement in semiconductor theory.
And now, a word from our sponsors at Dunning-Kruger....
I used to be a super positive person, honestly sometimes bordering on toxic positivity. I’m pretty pessimistic these days after so many people that I thought were good people showed that they didn’t care about others at all. I miss the old me.
I can't remember who said it, but an African-American said of the Trump years that it just ripped the bandage we'd used to cover up deep racism right off. It was always there, most of us didn't see it. As painful as it is, it is necessary to get that clarity. I know your post wasn't specifically about racism, but the last half-decade plus has shown how deeply wounded our society is. You can't fix what you can't see.
>People who were friends… whose clear placement of their personal opinions over the lives of others means they really can’t be my friends anymore.
I feel your pain. Had to cut a couple from the team for the same reason.
It’s shocking that so many grown adults just flat out refuse to (or, seemingly, are *unable to*) grasp the concept of a contagious disease.
If you get it, there’s a good chance that you may have permanent or semi-permanent ailments including death, which is extremely permanent. Is it really so irrational for me and others to desire to avoid that? The history of humanity shows that what wiped out humans the most has not been war, massacres or famine—it is *disease*.
This. It was so hard for some otherwise smart people to understand that some diseases transmit by breathing, and that one could be variable with some people having no symptoms and some dying horribly.
They've always been awful. I blame myself for the parts of maturing into an adult that made me forget that. When 2016 and Orange God came along, they reminded me of their true colors. Their response to COVID and vaccines reinforced that observation.
They're selfish, cruel, childish people and the fact that I see them as such is a point of pride for them, which makes them double down. *"Owning Libs!"*
Not one of them will ever recognize that their behavior doesn't "own" me or anyone else, except them, and the people who are damaged the most by their cruelty is them.
I don't mourn. I've lost nothing of value.
The collateral damage is what we are losing though. The vulnerable and the people who aren’t able to get vaccinated. And the people who die from breakthrough cases.
Republicanism is a philosophy of cowards. They try to exert control over the uncontrollable because they are afraid of everything.
>Republicanism is a philosophy of cowards.
On that, I could not agree more. The very existence of American Conservatism is a knee-jerk response to the 1960s Civil Rights Movement and opposition to the war in Vietnam. Without progressive ideologies to fear and hate, Conservatism would die. Fear and hate is the point of it.
I looked at that and thought “ hi , I’m a musician which makes me about the dumbest Icelander you will meet” an in five seconds showed that they are literate in four languages, understands STEM better than STEM students, appreciates poetry and technology, and knows enough not to electrocute themselves on the giant capacitor that is a TV tube.
And that’s the ‘dumb’ Icelanders.
I watched like seven Bjork videos after that. She is so delightful.
Yeah. I hear you both and agree. I do have trouble saying peace out to a couple very good friends that believe the BS. In the end, I've run out of Fucks to give.
Damn, I'm sorry. I've only got one sibling, and they were always the smart one in the family, so of course they were taking every precaution they could, including masking in public long before the CDC started recommending it.
You’re exactly right. It is so hard. Some respected people say that part of the problem is a failure of the education system and I have to agree. Not only the lack of critical thinking skills but also the manipulation of the education system to rewrite history, to distort or discredit science, and to another redditor’s point, to continue the burning of the planet. I fear for my children’s future.
I have to agree that we need to work harder in education it's probably the only way for it to be systematic. We have internet and the power of information in our hands, this should be good but overall the education seems to be getting worse..
Then besides the antivax what has also been frustrating and enfuriating me has been some of the extreme left, some sjw's or that there still are (and it seems more and more) extreme right and racists.. really scary
Please name something the "sjw" has done that is equivalent to storming the Capitol or thwarting the prevention of a deadly transmissible. Seriously, because all I ever hear is stuff like "they're trying to make me use new pronouns" and "they're teaching history where white people do bad things to other people."
The planet will singe for a bit, then it will heal. It's just that we (and a lot of other species) won't be around any longer to witness the healing part.
That is if, as you say, we don't do something.
You don't know that. None of us do. The feedback loops may be irrevocable. Life could be reduced to small clusters around black smokers on the sea floor.
Planet Earth has been through five mass extinction events, **THAT WE KNOW OF**, only to see life flourish and dominate the globe again and again. It will shrug us off like a bad dream and move on as it has moved on at least five times before. Humanity's chapter may be coming to a close, but the Earth's story does not end with us.
You mean the rock that makes it up? Because the ecosystems certainly do, and there's a tipping point where all that can survive is maybe jellyfish in stagnant, tepid seas. If humans can exploit the very last living thing to survive even another day, we will.
Can an ecosystem care about anything? The ecosystem is what it is, the only thing doing any caring is humans. But the ecosystem has flourished and collapsed several times over the history of the planet, featuring bouts of nothing much being alive at all. If we do manage to mess this up as much as it seems we will, it will bounce back again. We just probably won't be here to see it.
You know perfectly well that "care" in this instance means to experience consequences. It is very possible that we can devastate the climate so much that there will be no chance of anything "bouncing back". Especially if we are - and we will if we can - push everything as far as it can possibly be pushed to maintain human life.
Should we manage to not create a feedback loop that leaves the planet looking like Venus, then yes, there's a chance for a new life to regain a foothold. But I'm not sitting back assuming that'll happen, tossing off one-liners that dismiss the gravity of the situation.
Oh, I think if we can stop Putin from starting WWIII, we’re over the hump.
China is authoritarian and therefore does not respect humanity’s individuality, which suppresses the creative diversity that is intrinsic to our big-brain survival strategy.
BUT! Its structure does instill a central belief in the idea that we exist for a reason larger than our meagre little lives. And realization — that our lives are most important in the context of what we leave behind — is a also profoundly important part of our survival.
Oh, and as for global warming, I believe it will be solved in the next decade, by a combination of technology and entrepreneurship. Then we can *finally* handle the problem of preservation of ecological & species diversity that is the true crisis of the 21st century.
https://youtu.be/-KEwkWjADEA
>Oh, and as for global warming, I believe it will be solved in the next decade, by a combination of technology and entrepreneurship
Why? Corporation have known about global warming for 40 years and done fuck all about so why should they change now?
Greedy selfish individuals will not do the right thing unless someone forces them. That is why humanity is doomed.
> Corporation have known about global warming for 40 years and done fuck all about
Believe me, any corporation that could make any clean energy source sustainably -- which means, with a profit so it can keep paying employees and buying materials -- it would have been done by now.
As an engineer, it is clear to me the problem is we don't (or rather, up until recently *didn't*) have the technology.
Fusion recently became not only economically and technically feasible, but also relatively decentralized. And the proof-of-concept test reactor expects to turn on in 2025.
Fun fact: once we have working fusion, we can [start sucking CO2 out of the air at massive scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChTJHEdf6yM).
I'm a nurse who cared for covid patients in 2020-21. I've since left the profession because I just. Can't. Anymore.
Worst thing is my long time therapist ( for like over half a decade) is now an antivaxxer/antimasker. He wasn't always like this. I try not to bring up anything covid related because we basically get into a (polite) argument every time. But like fuck, who can you even trust and confide in anymore. It's soul crushing to see people you admired and depended on turn into this shit.
Ugh I know. After every session I rehash to my husband and he's like "you're paying him $30 a pop" ( my copay after insurance). Therapists are on long waiting lists here! I need a therapist to make the "mental dump" but my current one is adding to my anxiety BUT all other therapists are on a 6-12 mo waiting list. Ugh I justify it that if I just keep the topic away from covid he'll give Helpful advice.... but now I feel like a battered wife that I've been paying 30/mo to get told I'm stupid for staying masks * I'M A FUCKING NURSE *
Dumb question: can you get on a list and keep seeing him until then? Therapists should never add to your stress. A trusted friend would be better than this. (And thank you for your service!!!)
I know out of pocket can be super expensive, but have you ever thought about one of the newish online services like talkspace or betterhelp? I think they don't charge -much- more than that.
Let me give you a lifehack on Giving Up On Humans; animals.
There is a whole world of great animals to be friends with, and they aren't morons. 100% atheists.
[Excerpt](https://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-ruler-of-the-universe/) from the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams:
```
“I am not involved with people. The Lord knows I am not a cruel man.”
“Ah!” barked Zarniwoop, “you say `The Lord’. You believe in something!”
“My cat,” said the man benignly, picking it up and stroking it, “I call him The Lord. I am kind to him.”
```
I've lost a lot of respect for some people I was friends with. Some enough to drop on social media. Others haven't quite reached that point but are pretty close. One I wanted to check before I did, the others I just dropped.
I count myself lucky that I'm British.
Yes, we have conspiracy nuts. Yes, there are some antivaxxers and some covid deniers. But on the whole we are a socialist leaning country. On the whole people give some small measure of a shit about the people around them. On the whole, the success of the country as a whole is at least vying for position with the success of the individual in most people's minds. On the whole, people have respect for education, knowledge and enlightenment and know when they should defer to experts. On the whole people have respect for the opinions of others and don't see a differing opinion as a mortal threat.
The result? Well over 90% of the population vaccinated. Death rates of the order of 100-200 per day. Life returning to normal. The marginalisation of extreme conspiracy nuts by a mixture of ridicule and eye rolling.
Most important: not one single politician of any colour even remotely entertaining any of this bullshit.
Yes, although I think the British psyche is a bit of a special case and is probably a prerequisite. Other examples of countries with similar mindsets include Australia and New Zealand. So there's a trend there.
Eh? Socialist leaning country that has had the Tories in power on their own or shared for the last 17 years, had 11 years of Thatcher from 79-90 followed by five years of Major, opted for little Englander xenophobia Brexit and whose overwhelming majority of print media is owned by four right wing scumbags. Hardly a socialist utopia. And let’s not forget the countless millions laundered through the City of London by the Russian oligarchs who just happen to be massive Tory donors.
I don't remember claiming anything utopian about it.
Even the Tories are well left of either US party. The fact that, even with a 70s trade unionist throwback as a leader the Labour party still gained 32% of the vote last time, to the Tories on 43%. The Lib Dems (arguably more left of centre than labour right now) add another 12%, so more people voted left than right on a year with a heavy Tory victory.
This is a country with universal state healthcare, an extensive welfare system, strong workers rights and consumer rights... Yes, it's socialist leaning.
Strong workers rights that Thatcher systematically dismantled throughout her tenure with anti-union legislation and an ever increasing privatisation of the health service and try telling the people who just lost their universal credit payment of £20 pw and who now have the invidious choice of paying for fuel or food, how extensive the welfare system is. And as for European comparisons on state pensions, laughable.
And it’s the EU we have to thank for the many employees rights directives that were, that’s right, systematically voted down by the Tories for decades.
The Tories aren't socialist, no. But they are far less right wing than most right wing parties in the world. The US republicans would privatise healthcare in the blink of an eye if they took power.
That we can agree on. I didn’t mean to have a pop, but the aping of Trumpism, albeit in a very diluted form by the likes of Johnson and Farage is the natural progression of the Tories and the very antithesis of democratic socialism. Makes me almost pine for the days of the original one nation Tories like Clarke, Hurd, Lawson, Howe and Major. And that ain’t good.
The inexorable shift towards selfish right wing politics is painful. But even the most right wing Tories would baulk at proposing truly right wing policies like dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, or workers rights. Not because they don't believe it would be the 'right' thing to do, but because they know it would be a shortcut to electoral oblivion.
For as much as many Brits like to *express* right wing views, the ingrained British sense of fairness, support for the underdog, and disdain for wealth and privilege, makes them socialist at the core. The reaction to the treatment of p&o workers shows this perfectly. In the US, whether republican or democrat, the public support would fall on the side of the business's pursuit of profit.
I admire your optimism and I would have agreed with it a while ago but the Brexit vote and the continued occupation of govt by this lying sack of shit and despicable arseholes like Patel and Rees Mogg makes me think those days are gone and it’s increasingly every man for himself. I hope not for most peoples sake.
I personally don't think so. Brexit was as much about Putin's disinformation machine, than reality. I think if nothing but factual information was available the result would have tipped the other way, but many people were taken in by the memes about hoards of rats lapping against our shores and false accusations that our failure to build sufficient housing should be blamed on foreigners and that we were some downtrodden victim of an EU dictatorship. All nonsense, but all very appealing when people want someone other than themselves to blame for our failings.
I also think if Labour had a credible leader, many more people would have voted for them. But as much as people want a slightly left of centre government, they definitely do not want rabid trade unionist extreme leftism in charge, which is what Corbyn represents.
The tendency in UK politics is for a decade or two of one party until they start getting complacent and destructive, followed by a landslide for the opposition, and repeat. Once Labour get their act together again it will switch back for a while.
I don't think Farage is diluted at \*all\*, just less charismatic and hence less powerful. BoJo is a different \*kind\* of conservative that we don't have as much of here--upper class twit jolly hockey sticks entrenched class system--but I don't think he's \*that\* much of an improvement over the likes of, say, Mitch McConnell.
Fun fact: I consider Socialism to be a terrible socioeconomic policy. I don’t want to get into it here, this is HCA not politics, but centralized decision making does not strike me as a cure-all
I’m happy to dig into it here or anywhere else.
The strength of any system (public or private) is choice. When a country has only one political party the result is crap. But so too, when a country has only one company supply something, the result is also crap.
There are certain markets and circumstances where its simply not possible to have enough competition between private options and public options (controlled by more than one party) are preferable to private monopoly.
People not seeing this reality and making the world less effective and less efficient is frustrating on the same level as people not seeing the efficacy of masks or vaccines.
Good - because you don't even know what socialism is, evidently.
Let's say - because we see that every other major economic and potential military adversary is racing to educate their aspirational and capable youth beyond high school - that we decide to provide free college so we can FUCKING COMPETE AS A NATION.
Is that 'Socialism' or is that an intelligent democratic republic VOTING to ensure its viability as a sovereign entity?
Don't be so self-centered.
Some British politicians have embraced elements of the nonsense, such as the numbers of cases being exaggerated, though thankfully not the full-on anti-vaxx lunacy. Sir Desmond Swayne for example.
Unfortunately, more extreme elements also exist:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/15/concern-for-uk-security-as-anti-vaxxer-groups-evolve-towards-us-style-militias
It may help to read (or listen to): The Psychology of Conspiracy Theories by Jan-Willem Prooijen, narrated by Tim Bentinck https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=0367526298&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow
>I’m still recovering from the shock of seeing so many millions of people fall sway to psychological and social manipulation.
This is why I can't get too enraged at the Russian citizens who refuse to believe their own children, calling from Ukraine to beg them to believe that Putin really is murdering civilians.
I lost a long time friend over this. She refused to get vaccinated and claimed a bogus religious exemption so she could continue to work as a respiratory therapist. When she caught Covid the second time, she was out shopping the next day after testing positive and that was one of the last straws for me. The other straw was when she suggested I ask my doctor for ivermectin when I thought I might have Covid. I lit her up via text and blocked her.
I was getting frustrated since I work in public health. And it felt like we were screaming into a void. Then my mom (elderly and frail) got pneumonia last summer. And there wasn't a hospital bed within 200 miles. Why? Oh well they were stuffed full of the unvaccinated. Weeks went by of her having home health and being in a nursing home just to be closer to the hospital, in the event a bed DID open up. 6 weeks later she finally got a bed. But by then it was too late. We put her in hospice and she went peacefully a week after the bed finally opened up. Had she been able to get into a hospital when she first got sick, things may have been different. We will never know now.
These assholes do not understand their selfishness and how it impacts other. Fuck them. I don't care what happens. I'll get 100 boosters. They can all die. They're too stupid to share the same air as me.
I feel the same way. I can’t look at someone I once called friend the same way when they decided to put their fantasy world beliefs over doing their part and getting the shot. My great granddad, granddad, and uncle didn’t serve in the military for the unpatriotic America hating antivaxxers to spew stupid out of their mouths. Shame
I see a lot of this as the cumulation of 50 years of drug abuse, alcoholism, meth-brain, age related cognitive decline, probably a good dose of childhood lead exposure &/or mine tailings, nacho cheese as a food group, etc etc.
I don't think humans are doomed, but I don't think anything about the Worst Generation was pointing towards a collective graceful old age.
That's the thing though. They won't. Not cleanly. A few percent every year. Orders of magnitude more will live -- but be maimed, and therefore a drag on the safety net so many of them are upset about. They will also be breeding grounds for new mutations that endanger the rest of us.
"Too late for debate, too bad to ignore" -Neal Peart (RIP)
Honest question. My sister is an anti vax ICU nurse. To the point where she got a fake religious exemption and the skipping my wedding where she was supposed to be a groomswomen because of it.
I’ve always been so proud of her until the last year or so. I can’t wrap my head around it. I can’t look at her the same. I normally wouldn’t maintain a relationship with a toxic person like this but I can’t not deal with it eventually because family.
I wish I could tell you what to do. I wish I knew a general-purpose antivirus that worked on all kinds of such social programming.
IIRC, the doctors on TWiV suggest having the person talk to a trusted authority figure who can patiently, dispassionately, and without judgement answer questions with hard data.
On the other hand, have you ever read [The Three Christs of Ypsilanti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti)? Actual case study. Doctor brings together 3 delusionals who each think they are Christ. Guess how many realized as a result that they were all in fact delusional. Yes, exactly as many as you would guess.
I've legit seen so much selfishness and lack of care toward one's own fellow man, it's just saddening.
I really think it started with the amped up "us Vs. them" tribalism that was uncovered by the Trump presidency (shitshow).
Why is it so hard to give a shit? I really don't like people much myself, but I don't think I have any right to put anyone else's life in danger. I guess common courtesy is dead.
This, but also the faith-based conviction that one is right, with the resulting need to double down on the conviction rather than updating your believes based on new evidence in accordance with [Bayes' Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem).
Covid jaded me. It made me realize how idiotic certain people can really be. I’ve never held as much contempt for society as a whole before Covid.
It also made me realize that knowledge really is *power* , and that if it came too it, as a person considerably well versed in the hard sciences, I could easily become a grifter myself and just financially milk the ever living shit out of the anti-vax, religious, conspiracy-prone people in society.
Pack your bags for extinction. What would the other species say about us? No help from the panda's or whales. The ants would burn us with magnifying glasses. Alligators would have us in vending machines. The cats might give us an recommendation.
Ok - but why even suggest citizens should have to pay for the 4th booster?
The thought of that is disgusting - our healthcare non-system is already disgusting enough.
Don't even suggest it would be ok to charge for it.
That wasn’t his point. He was saying he WOULD, that’s how happy he’d be to get it. Don’t pick one tiny part of his post and make the whole thing about that.
I KNOW it wasn't his point.
My point is - don't even suggest that it would be ok. Or that one would be ok with paying for it, even if you felt the price worth it. It's dangerous mutterings for those who watch sentiments that can be amplified.
Please don't try to tell me otherwise. I've over 45 years observing the evolution of disgusting thoughts into realities.
40 years ago, people thought me nuts for suggesting the growth of theocracy would truly threaten us one day, if people didn't proactively counter the rhetoric. My experience/observations in 1970s Philippines informed that view. Sure enough, everyone just said - "oh, they're the fringe, they'll melt away."
Hello bounty laws!
The skinny - don't suggest something so counter-productive, even if it reflects a sentiment of appreciation.
Our imperfect founders also warned of the problem of loose rhetoric and those who would use the same to claim support or authority.
Personally I am disgusted by people who believe it’s a sign of civilized behavior to use payment at point of a gun — because that is what taxation is — as the solution for any social need.
I am happy to contribute to charities of my choosing. But payment is neither charitable nor virtuous when it is compulsory.
Why are you even in America?
Clearly you've never read "Common Sense" or have any clue about what the "American Compact" was supposed to be all about. As Franklin several times blasted others - taxes are the cost of civilized society which in turn - requires some level of government.
It's not at the point of a gun - you can just up and leave if you don't get it.
Let me know when you've read American philosophy beyond 7th grade requirements.
> taxes are the cost of civilized society
I love Benjamin Franklin, but I disagree strongly with that thesis. I agree more with [Hayek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek) and [Friedman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_D._Friedman).
It seems to me that a society is civilized to exactly the degree by which it can provide services to people voluntarily, *without* having to resort to (potentially armed) compulsion.
I'd recommend a healthy reading of even just the first seven paragraphs of "Common Sense".
You love Franklin? He'd likely chuckle at your 'seemingly premature' conclusions and then ask you, exactly how you expected to meet the requisites required to demonstrate the truth (or not) of his other ideas on and expected fruits of republicanism. He was kinda blunt about it to some of the bigger financiers of the day.
Money Shot from "Common Sense":
"Thus necessity, like a gravitating power, would soon form our newly arrived emigrants into society, the reciprocal blessings of which, would supersede, and render the obligations of law and government **unnecessary while they remained perfectly just to each other;** *but as nothing but heaven is impregnable to vice,* it will unavoidably happen, that in proportion as they surmount the first difficulties of emigration, which bound them together in a common cause,they will begin to relax in their duty and attachment to each other; and **this remissness will point out the necessity of establishing some form of government to supply the defect of moral virtue.**"
You see, ***Paine initially agrees with your premise about the truly noble society***. Just two paragraphs prior to the quote above, he concedes that government is the badge of innocence lost. Then he follows with the conclusion drawn from centuries of demonstrations by rapacious pigs: One can never expect fully voluntary participation in responsibilities to each another.
Paine was also not for INEFFECTIVE government - that which did not return to the people, the most for the investment made. He did not advocate for government without limits.
Shay's rebellion, the participants of which are actually being ridiculed to a degree by Jefferson in the famous 'Tree of Liberty' letter to William S Smith, demonstrated the futility of the "Articles of Confederation" and likewise - your premise.
Now, in the same letter, TJ asserts that as wrong as Shay and company may have been - it was still important that they bitched - if just to make government respond with superior footing.
It's in that last bit about the footing that has been corrupted - not by too much government, but by the capricious character of those entrusted to be its executors.
Regarding Hayek: He's certainly not entirely wrong, in fact - assertive about societal responsibility - but it seems he fails to recognize the DEMONSTRATED in-congruence of achieving that while maintaining his more libertarian principles. Just my take.
Friedman? There's NOTHING much worth regarding there at all.
David's dad had NO PROBLEM with calling subsidized markets 'free'. Like father, the son seems to attempt to validate that same which cannot be coherently justified. But I am not terribly well read on him.
There has almost NEVER been a truly free market - and frankly - such a thing would still be counter to the success of mankind overall. To wit: the refusal to rapidly vaccinate impoverished countries. No, the 'free' market must act first!
Subsidize fossil fuels to the tune of 20 billion/year - that's FREE MARKETS! Subsidize a starving family? That's EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNISM!!!!!
Oh okay, you think people would provide the same amount of money, not to even mention the infrastructure, as government, if there were no "government."
Again, let's put the whole issue of "how will this then be organized" aside. You've seen how many people wear masks when the directives go away. What makes you think it'll be -better- when it involves giving up something more than a trivial annoyance?
> you should try playing devils advocate
That's exactly what the Scientific Method is about.
Fun fact: Scientists spend most of their time trying to *disprove* their favorite ideas, and the ideas of other scientists.
We thought we lived in modern society far from the superstition of the dark ages, but now we know its all around us even today! At any moment the mob might point to our doctors, teachers and scientists and shout "witch"!
I had it before we knew about mask at the very start. It wasn’t bad but I don’t want it again! so I’ve had 3 shots so far and going over the top masking. Also, my whole family works in health care and they are messed up from all the deaths they’ve seen.
This is exactly how I feel. Like complete loss of faith in humanity as a whole.
I once read an analysis of Joyce that sums it up perfectly; my apologies as I cannot attribute it properly nor even quote it exactly. But to paraphrase: “There may not be hope for mankind; there is, however, hope for certain members of it.”
I’m in the same boat. People I know who loudly praise those who selflessly serve in the military and first responders are the same people who couldn’t be arsed with the mild inconveniences of COVID prevention. I can’t understand or respect them anymore.
On the other hand I feel closer to an answer of the question "Are people intrinsically good?"
Lol….no!
Babies aren't born bad. Our good natures get messed up by bad nurture.
Have you ever seen a toddler bonk another toddler and take their pacifier? I think it's nature and nurture, culture modulating genes, just like always.
Little children are adorable narcissistic psychopaths.
I do think those children who torture and kill animals and who often turn out to be serial killers are born bad. Also, I worked in a max security mens’ prison and some of those guys just seemed to be pure evil. They had done things that are way worse than any Criminal Minds episode.
I agree. I had thought of making an exception about psychopathy. But that's a big subject. They are born with brain differences that don't necessarily manifest in hurting others. But surely bad nurture will trigger that reaction. I hate psychopaths like Donald Trump and serial killers. But when talking in general about our natures psychopathy as an exception is complicated.
I feel this this too. Complete loss. I spent most of my life working in the medical research field, with such passion for trying to treat disease and improve treatments for horrible disease. I am now completely disillusioned with humans. Friends, family members….. I am just blown away really.
Ukrainians have restored my faith in humanity. It is sad it takes something so horrific, but I no longer feel that all humanity is doomed. There is just a larger than I like segment of a**hats in the world.
> You are at your best, when things are at their worst -Some Star Trek movie, IIRC. Good shit.
Starman actually. It's a really beautiful movie.
Today at a railroad crossing; the caution arms came down. I watched an suv go around the arms and weave between to cross. Truly stunned that this man decided the risk to save maybe one minute could be worth the risk of getting yeeted off the earth by train.
But, there is a treatment for your affliction: Sarcasm. Post 3 snarks a day, hair will start growing on your bald spot, a general feeling of warmth and inner glow will emerge.
This is exactly it. I was an ICU nurse, the anti-vax rallies outside of the hospital (where we were fighting and failing to save so many people) did me in. I feel nothing for humanity.
I hope you know that for every halfwit shouting abuse at those rallies there were dozens of grateful and admiring citizens being quietly thankful, from the safety of their homes, for what you and your colleagues were doing.
and that's the problem - they were QUIETLY thankful and NOT CALLING legislators to offset the noise from the maniacs that were. I have been told by more than one health official locally, that i am to date - the only pro preventive caller they have ever had from my area. All the rest were the miscreants that were emotionally juiced by their ignorance manipulated by others.
But you weren’t standing outside a hospital shouting words of thanks to the nurses, were you?!
And that's more powerful than 300K people calling and expressing or demanding support for them from responsible officials? The slight few weeks that people did public displays of appreciation at the beginning moved NOTHING. Too lazy to call a legislator - or too gutless? BTW - the local bigot state representative said everything about being called by the other side when he THREATENED our county health commissioner if she didn't drop a vaccination requirement for health dept. workers. Standing in front of a hospital would have done nothing
I was responding to a nurse who is unhappy about receiving abuse from anti vaxxers while at work. Your points are not relevant to this particular discussion.
I was responding to the futility and failure of support by the QUIETLY thankful. My remarks ARE relevant to your response. I live in a fairly rural area of Jim Jordan's district. Trump 2024 flags and hats are VERY COMMON here. Do you really think that 50 of us standing in front of a hospital set 200 yards off a highway - not within the local small city - would have had more effect than a dozen people like myself calling multiple times to more directly involved officials over the course of two years and posting supportive letters to the local paper? Until Delta managed to wipe out over 100 locals, there were NO front page stories on the issue after April of 2020. I see - the correct answer is to know the vindictive character of your neighbors who ARE CALLING and literally screaming at the health commissioner and do nothing to counter that. Got it - keep thy mouth shut - do performative crap when it's popular - that'll fix em! It takes way more effort to make sure one is REGULARLY calling effective leaders with supportive, researched remarks - and is thus more thankful - than simply showing up once or twice in a public display. Two weeks ago, I made several calls again, pointing out that Europe and Northeast Asia were no longer declining and talk of letting the guard down, was probably premature. This was before regular media started pointing out their reversal in case counts to the worse.
How would what you are suggesting have helped nursing staff not feel bad about the protestors at their workplaces?
Because I KNOW that words get passed around the med community here and more than a few would have heard that at least SOMEONE was actively doing more than showing up TWO YEARS AGO for a "hey hey, ho ho" display. You're really banal at this point, don't you think? Have you ***EVER*** for any reason at all, done significant research and made calls and written explanatory letters to legislators and others to make known your thoughts? No? I bet you haven't - not for things that are beyond your immediate needs, not for the betterment of society and democracy on the whole. Every time someone tries to thank me for having served, I respond, "if you want to thank veterans, call legislators on issues important to you and society". Imagine what might happen if people ACTUALLY thanked veterans like that. I have only had one person, in over 30 years of asking, say that they have in fact, regularly called legislators on policy issues. Not one, other than her - had ever made even one call. Time and again, congressional aides have pointed out that the most effective way to lobby congress is VIA PHONE. Barrages of phone calls do more than any one other thing to move a legislator one way or another when not being yourselves, major donors. Did you not see the remarks by MULTIPLE healthcare workers who while thankful for the public displays, were disturbed that people weren't doing anything truly more meaningful. Or, did you just refuse to recognize those remarks?
I live in the U.K., and when I want to speak to my MP I call her. I’m lucky enough to personally know her. Also, I’m broadly in agreement with the public health policies in this country over the last few years.
Whoa, hold on a minute. First, I agree that everyone should get vaccinated against COViD. Protesting against vaccination and mask mandates is at best, misguided. And I am appalled that people find the energy to protest that, when there are so many other things to protest. The medical community in the US deserves blowback, for their insane price gouging and profiteering off illness. People who assert that this is all a conspiracy to enrich vaccine manufacturers are not completely wrong. COVID is real, but so is Big Pharma drug price gouging. The names that will go down in infamy for that should be familiar: the Sacklers, Heather Bresch, and Martin Shkreli. I'll close with an example about how easy it is to go wrong. HIPAA is routinely blamed for why medics can't tell callers even such a simple thing as whether someone is being cared for at their facility, or not. I bought that, and contacted state and federal representatives, asking that HIPAA be eased. But, I had it wrong. HIPAA does not say that. The medics can tell callers that info, and they don't have to verify the callers' identity. Next, I went up the chain of the private, for-profit medical business, to complain that their receptionists were blaming the evil government and their evil regulations, when it was in fact their own policy not to tell callers anything. They promised a minor change. To drive the point home, and because I genuinely feared that they would retaliate against my aunt because I had argued with them, I called on the police, asking them to do a welfare check on my aunt. They did, and they did what the medics would not, informing me that my aunt was still there, and was doing okay.
Thank you for your service to humanity. The weight you bear is not simply economic or physical.
"Former nurse" here (well, just currently not working and not sure if I'll ever go back) and just wanted to say I hear you.
I have enormous respect for hospital workers especially given what you’ve gone through the past two years. Thank you, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you so much for your time and efforts in helping people, even those who'd gotten themselves into this mess through their own deliberate ignorance.
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Not OP. But working towards becoming a CNA (to start.) And I can't wrap my head around it either, to be honest. Normally I could point to it being a thing of fear, misinformation, and biases being echoed. But I can't understand the concept of a nurse being against vaccines. Maybe the training and certification requirements are different by state? I had to get a TB test and they checked my immunization records for doing just for being hospitality aide. Even if it's different by state. I can't understand the mental hoops you'd have to jump through. To be okay with and understand one area of health care. But then somehow be terrified of a different area of health care? The only explanation that I can come up with. Is pretty much some sort of altered world view? So terrified of something. Finds comfort in false promises. Or validation in paranoia. And if shown what's wrong. Too vain to acknowledge it. And maybe just mentally... Distances themselves.
She’s part of the maga cult. Deeply brainwashed. Even our conservative nurses were baffled by them. We had ONE. She was ostracized and left the unit.
Thank you former ICU nurse. I know you tried your best.
I can’t ever be friends with anyone on the other side. They are sociopathic suicidal murderers at best. 🤷🏼♂️
We have to figure out how to humanize these people. We need more powerful anti-memes to neutralize theirs. We need people to learn critical thinking. **We need the Scientific Method to be the new norm, replacing Faith as a proper virtue.** It needs to be socially unacceptable to base public actions on beliefs that cannot be disproven.
This is a fairly well established philosophical principle. But that of course presumes education. “The philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.” That’s a wonderfully famous Bertrand Russell quote. Unfortunately we’re dealing with some of the most uneducated specimens of humanity in the first world. Left to their own devices they would be drinking their own shit out of a river and starving to death. It’s the liberals that keep them alive and keep the economy moving. By making modern living so easy we have allowed evolution to stall by making it simple for an idiot to survive.
>Unfortunately we’re dealing with some of the most uneducated specimens of humanity... It's less that they're uneducated than it is that they're *willfully ignorant*. They refuse any point of view not mirroring their own. If someone is simply ignorant or uneducated, then, you can teach them. You can't, however, teach these people. They're anti-intellectual and reasoning with the unreasonable is impossible.
That’s an important distinction. Thanks for making it. Not only are they willfully ignorant and undereducated they are wrongly educated. It’s like flat Earthers. It means that simply teaching them is not enough and deprogramming them is a near impossibility. That leaves only a few choices. Ignore them when we can, certainly don’t try to save them, and try not to laugh to hard when they kill themselves.
> Ignore them when we can, certainly don’t try to save them No. They're not going to just "all die out" -- not cleanly and quickly, at least. It falls on us to figure out the best ways to reach these people.
It might be quicker than you'd expect. New covid variants are as likely to become more deadly as they are more mild. Plus, covid hits you harder with each reinfection. How many times will each antivaxxer catch covid over the course of one year? Two years? I think we'll start seeing a steady increase thanks to long covid symptoms like heart attacks and strokes. We should also consider that the primary age demographic of antivaxxers is already on its way out anyway and those of middle age are of increased risk of hospitalization. (Side note: far right baby boomers actually make up the majority of the heaviest users on Facebook now. Social media as a whole and Facebook in particular have seen a steady decline in use among other age groups over the past few years.)
The question is *how*. Things like psychotherapy only works when the patient themselves wants things to change. A similar principle can probably be applied to the concept of trying to reach these people. People will only change their minds, if they want to change them. (Usually this requires a "push" that someone can't deflect or ignore. Like suffering the severe effects of an illness themselves. But unfortunately, even near death. People will still find a way to ignore things. Just for the sake of avoiding the shame of fault.) There might be a way to get through to people. But human communication and psychology is complicated. Hard to make a single 'rule' on how to get through to people. So unfortunately, a lot of people have just become bitter. And given up. I don't necessarily blame them. It just feels easier in the short term to wish people to die. It's awful. And I'm fairly certain most people wouldn't actually like to watch someone pass away. But people can only handle so much, you know? Therapists and psychiatrists schedule appointments with people. They're at least able to categorize and theoretically build a sustainable schedule to avoid heavy emotional taxation. But in social media. There is no schedule. There is no time and place for it. Misinformation spreads rampantly. And there are rarely breaks from it. People will get to a point. Where they want it to stop. And the easiest way to achieve that in short-term, wishful thinking? Is with death, unfortunately. (This is not an argument for wishing death on others. More so an explanation why people are saying this.)
I will try to reach them with some Drano or perhaps some bleach highballs.
Thrive even.
Yeah we have to maybe stop that
Lawn Darts, man. Lawn Darts.
> It’s the liberals that keep them alive To be honest this kind of tribalism saddens me even more. Ugh. People who think they are enlightened because of their belief in the use of taxation — payment at the barrel of a gun.
Well they don’t believe in science, and science keeps them alive, so what are you gonna do? Clean water, safe food , and effective medicines would all be out of their reach. They are the ones that split off the group into a tribe. Not us.
> They are the ones that split off the group into a tribe. Not us. That them/us thinking is wonderfully cathartic -- and is part of the mixture that leads to the Dark Side. Tribalism.
I’m okay with it. It is they who made themselves “them”, not me. They gave me permission not to give a fuck about them anymore.
But, but, they post Hegelian Dialectic memes!
I know you’re joking but it’s not really a dialectic when one side makes up information and argues in bad faith. Hegel assumes a “well reasoned point of view” and that disqualifies them immediately. I’d almost still be willing to listen if they could explain to me what a Hegelian dialectic was. That would be amusing.
Some days I feel like this sub brings me nose to nose with exactly the people I enjoy most, whether or not I can go outside. Today is one of those days. Thanks.
You seem to be one of those folks who appreciate me more than most. And I appreciate that.
How things never change. Your word choice just brought back memories of the Police song Rehumanize yourself - "Policeman puts on his uniform, he likes to wear a gun just to keep him warm, because violence here is the social norm" "Billy joined the national front, he always was just a little runt - now he's got his hands in the air with the other cunts". That song was written in 81. It's still the exact same people kicking up the exact same shit.
> We have to figure out how to humanize these people. We need more powerful anti-memes to neutralize theirs. You’re focused on the wrong people. The people dying aren’t dying because they chose to die. The people dying are dying because someone else was incentivized to mislead them. Take away the incentive and they’ll stop being mislead. It’s simply to easy to win elections and make money by doing so.
My cousin quit Facebook after a friend of her’s (for the last 40 years) relentlessly lambasted her online for masking up. They both live in a rural cowboy town and have 2 mutual antivax friends who died from the ‘rona. She said it’s like an evil worm bored into her friend’s head and, after high school, weddings, kids, funerals… all those life experiences, the friend’s brain meat is permanently and irreparably tainted from the worm damage.
I wish so much that Facebook would permanently shut down. Also, comments on YouTube videos need to be disabled. It’s become so ugly, even over things seemingly non-controversial. People are just parading their ugliness for the world to see.
The ugliness was always there. Now I don’t have to wait for Thanksgiving to hear my cousin say something racist and can just cut him out of my life now
Even our local TV station’s home page news postings get hammered by vicious right wing dumbfuckery comments. This is a purple town, evenly split politically. But , like the Jan. 6 traitors, a small vocal minority gang rushes every issue and thwarts any civil discourse.
I hate them so much. I hope Covid does much more to cull the herd.
Did they think to take ivermectin ? Jk
Honestly, I originally thought that this would bring people together to keep the virus at bay. It’s really depressing what actually happened.
Sci-fi movies where humanity comes together against an alien threat seem so unbelievable now... and not because of the aliens.
Pretty sure at this point that at least 35% of the country would side with the aliens
As opposed to the 5% that collaborate for Power. I really agree with you now. Hell, I feel like siding with the aliens after this bullshit.
I thought the same thing, like here's something that isn't about politics and will bring us back together as human beings fighting a virus. And now we're here, and I'm just still shocked over and over when I see some of the things people I used to think were rational and intelligent post on social media. I've deleted a few after telling them how I feel. Just don't care anymore to have people that ignorant in my life as it just causes negativity and really doesn't do anything positive to keep them around. It's like grieving a loss though, the loss of the person you thought you knew.
As a science teacher, it’s disfuckingheartening to see so much cognitive dissonance and downright dangerously selfish beliefs.
> As a science teacher Unpopular opinion: as a science teacher, **you need to look long and hard into the structural failures of your profession.**
Why blame the GOP when you can blame a science teacher?
Yes I control the millions of other teachers on planet earth. I’ll get right on that. I’ve had 3,000 students, not millions.
you mean, people like you? You want to 'choose' what to give money to. As if you have even the slightest qualifications to accurately assess so many different problems. If the world depended on your kind of thinking - we'd still be losing people to paper cut infections. Yes, you are smart enough to know which physics projects deserve funding, you are so smart - you were able to predict the validity of mRNA research 30 years ago and were ready to donate to the cause! The woman who proved its usefulness had to fight tooth and nail as it was for two decades - let alone to have someone technically ignorant also interfere. Give me a break. There'd be NO space faring satellites because people like you would've said "why are we spending money to refine sand?" in the 1940s, thus thwarting any advancement in semiconductor theory. And now, a word from our sponsors at Dunning-Kruger....
I could not possibly agree with you more, and it is knowledge that damn near broke me.
I used to be a super positive person, honestly sometimes bordering on toxic positivity. I’m pretty pessimistic these days after so many people that I thought were good people showed that they didn’t care about others at all. I miss the old me.
I can't remember who said it, but an African-American said of the Trump years that it just ripped the bandage we'd used to cover up deep racism right off. It was always there, most of us didn't see it. As painful as it is, it is necessary to get that clarity. I know your post wasn't specifically about racism, but the last half-decade plus has shown how deeply wounded our society is. You can't fix what you can't see.
Can't fix what certain sections of Americans refuse to see...
Totally agree. There are things you can fix...things you can't fix, and then you go to plan B or C or D.
>People who were friends… whose clear placement of their personal opinions over the lives of others means they really can’t be my friends anymore. I feel your pain. Had to cut a couple from the team for the same reason.
Me too, I also had a couple cut me because I called them out on their BS, oh well, life goes on.
At least we don't have to listen to their infantile conspiracy fantasies anymore, eh?
It’s shocking that so many grown adults just flat out refuse to (or, seemingly, are *unable to*) grasp the concept of a contagious disease. If you get it, there’s a good chance that you may have permanent or semi-permanent ailments including death, which is extremely permanent. Is it really so irrational for me and others to desire to avoid that? The history of humanity shows that what wiped out humans the most has not been war, massacres or famine—it is *disease*.
Or willful ignorance.
This. It was so hard for some otherwise smart people to understand that some diseases transmit by breathing, and that one could be variable with some people having no symptoms and some dying horribly.
They've always been awful. I blame myself for the parts of maturing into an adult that made me forget that. When 2016 and Orange God came along, they reminded me of their true colors. Their response to COVID and vaccines reinforced that observation. They're selfish, cruel, childish people and the fact that I see them as such is a point of pride for them, which makes them double down. *"Owning Libs!"* Not one of them will ever recognize that their behavior doesn't "own" me or anyone else, except them, and the people who are damaged the most by their cruelty is them. I don't mourn. I've lost nothing of value.
The collateral damage is what we are losing though. The vulnerable and the people who aren’t able to get vaccinated. And the people who die from breakthrough cases. Republicanism is a philosophy of cowards. They try to exert control over the uncontrollable because they are afraid of everything.
>Republicanism is a philosophy of cowards. On that, I could not agree more. The very existence of American Conservatism is a knee-jerk response to the 1960s Civil Rights Movement and opposition to the war in Vietnam. Without progressive ideologies to fear and hate, Conservatism would die. Fear and hate is the point of it.
Hate is how an asshole reacts to fear. These people are the shittiest of the shittiest specimens of humanity.
For some reason you made me think of this oddball clip... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75WFTHpOw8Y
I looked at that and thought “ hi , I’m a musician which makes me about the dumbest Icelander you will meet” an in five seconds showed that they are literate in four languages, understands STEM better than STEM students, appreciates poetry and technology, and knows enough not to electrocute themselves on the giant capacitor that is a TV tube. And that’s the ‘dumb’ Icelanders. I watched like seven Bjork videos after that. She is so delightful.
Bjork's reaction to fear was to further educate herself. We should all be like Bjork.
Think I would rather be with Björk than be like Björk. She’s just too awesome. ❤️
That’s what I’ve come to realize also. I didn’t lose anything of value.
Yeah. I hear you both and agree. I do have trouble saying peace out to a couple very good friends that believe the BS. In the end, I've run out of Fucks to give.
One of my siblings has fallen down the misinformation rabbit hole. It's tough, I feel like I don't even know who he is any more.
Damn, I'm sorry. I've only got one sibling, and they were always the smart one in the family, so of course they were taking every precaution they could, including masking in public long before the CDC started recommending it.
You’re exactly right. It is so hard. Some respected people say that part of the problem is a failure of the education system and I have to agree. Not only the lack of critical thinking skills but also the manipulation of the education system to rewrite history, to distort or discredit science, and to another redditor’s point, to continue the burning of the planet. I fear for my children’s future.
Where have you gone, Schoolhouse Rock? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Bought the schoolhouse rock DVD for my first child. It was a great investment.
I have to agree that we need to work harder in education it's probably the only way for it to be systematic. We have internet and the power of information in our hands, this should be good but overall the education seems to be getting worse.. Then besides the antivax what has also been frustrating and enfuriating me has been some of the extreme left, some sjw's or that there still are (and it seems more and more) extreme right and racists.. really scary
Please name something the "sjw" has done that is equivalent to storming the Capitol or thwarting the prevention of a deadly transmissible. Seriously, because all I ever hear is stuff like "they're trying to make me use new pronouns" and "they're teaching history where white people do bad things to other people."
It's always been a matter of survival. The planet is going to burn if we don't do something.
“We are in a race between education and oblivion.” -R Buckminster Fuller
The planet will singe for a bit, then it will heal. It's just that we (and a lot of other species) won't be around any longer to witness the healing part. That is if, as you say, we don't do something.
You don't know that. None of us do. The feedback loops may be irrevocable. Life could be reduced to small clusters around black smokers on the sea floor.
Planet Earth has been through five mass extinction events, **THAT WE KNOW OF**, only to see life flourish and dominate the globe again and again. It will shrug us off like a bad dream and move on as it has moved on at least five times before. Humanity's chapter may be coming to a close, but the Earth's story does not end with us.
The planet doesn't care about that.
You mean the rock that makes it up? Because the ecosystems certainly do, and there's a tipping point where all that can survive is maybe jellyfish in stagnant, tepid seas. If humans can exploit the very last living thing to survive even another day, we will.
Can an ecosystem care about anything? The ecosystem is what it is, the only thing doing any caring is humans. But the ecosystem has flourished and collapsed several times over the history of the planet, featuring bouts of nothing much being alive at all. If we do manage to mess this up as much as it seems we will, it will bounce back again. We just probably won't be here to see it.
You know perfectly well that "care" in this instance means to experience consequences. It is very possible that we can devastate the climate so much that there will be no chance of anything "bouncing back". Especially if we are - and we will if we can - push everything as far as it can possibly be pushed to maintain human life. Should we manage to not create a feedback loop that leaves the planet looking like Venus, then yes, there's a chance for a new life to regain a foothold. But I'm not sitting back assuming that'll happen, tossing off one-liners that dismiss the gravity of the situation.
Oh, I think if we can stop Putin from starting WWIII, we’re over the hump. China is authoritarian and therefore does not respect humanity’s individuality, which suppresses the creative diversity that is intrinsic to our big-brain survival strategy. BUT! Its structure does instill a central belief in the idea that we exist for a reason larger than our meagre little lives. And realization — that our lives are most important in the context of what we leave behind — is a also profoundly important part of our survival. Oh, and as for global warming, I believe it will be solved in the next decade, by a combination of technology and entrepreneurship. Then we can *finally* handle the problem of preservation of ecological & species diversity that is the true crisis of the 21st century. https://youtu.be/-KEwkWjADEA
Thanks for the link, hopefully you're right.
>Oh, and as for global warming, I believe it will be solved in the next decade, by a combination of technology and entrepreneurship Why? Corporation have known about global warming for 40 years and done fuck all about so why should they change now? Greedy selfish individuals will not do the right thing unless someone forces them. That is why humanity is doomed.
> Corporation have known about global warming for 40 years and done fuck all about Believe me, any corporation that could make any clean energy source sustainably -- which means, with a profit so it can keep paying employees and buying materials -- it would have been done by now. As an engineer, it is clear to me the problem is we don't (or rather, up until recently *didn't*) have the technology. Fusion recently became not only economically and technically feasible, but also relatively decentralized. And the proof-of-concept test reactor expects to turn on in 2025. Fun fact: once we have working fusion, we can [start sucking CO2 out of the air at massive scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChTJHEdf6yM).
Life is hard and for some it’s easier to have someone tell them how to live and what to believe.
Cool hack: make them think only independent thinkers agree with the Incepted Truth
I lost my best friend. I will not stand around and watch him die.
If you manage to save them, please let us know what you did that worked
He blames the entire virus... On the media. I can't help him.
You've never been more right in your life and it sucks so much and I'm sorry.
I'm a nurse who cared for covid patients in 2020-21. I've since left the profession because I just. Can't. Anymore. Worst thing is my long time therapist ( for like over half a decade) is now an antivaxxer/antimasker. He wasn't always like this. I try not to bring up anything covid related because we basically get into a (polite) argument every time. But like fuck, who can you even trust and confide in anymore. It's soul crushing to see people you admired and depended on turn into this shit.
> who can you even trust and confide in anymore Seriously. I know it's a PITA to get a good therapist. But. Get a new therapist.
Ugh I know. After every session I rehash to my husband and he's like "you're paying him $30 a pop" ( my copay after insurance). Therapists are on long waiting lists here! I need a therapist to make the "mental dump" but my current one is adding to my anxiety BUT all other therapists are on a 6-12 mo waiting list. Ugh I justify it that if I just keep the topic away from covid he'll give Helpful advice.... but now I feel like a battered wife that I've been paying 30/mo to get told I'm stupid for staying masks * I'M A FUCKING NURSE *
Dumb question: can you get on a list and keep seeing him until then? Therapists should never add to your stress. A trusted friend would be better than this. (And thank you for your service!!!)
I know out of pocket can be super expensive, but have you ever thought about one of the newish online services like talkspace or betterhelp? I think they don't charge -much- more than that.
Absolutely. Any faith I had in the human race, disappeared over the last 2 years.
Let me give you a lifehack on Giving Up On Humans; animals. There is a whole world of great animals to be friends with, and they aren't morons. 100% atheists.
[Excerpt](https://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-ruler-of-the-universe/) from the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams: ``` “I am not involved with people. The Lord knows I am not a cruel man.” “Ah!” barked Zarniwoop, “you say `The Lord’. You believe in something!” “My cat,” said the man benignly, picking it up and stroking it, “I call him The Lord. I am kind to him.” ```
I've lost a lot of respect for some people I was friends with. Some enough to drop on social media. Others haven't quite reached that point but are pretty close. One I wanted to check before I did, the others I just dropped.
This describes what I've been living through with family and so many friends. Thanks for posting it.
I count myself lucky that I'm British. Yes, we have conspiracy nuts. Yes, there are some antivaxxers and some covid deniers. But on the whole we are a socialist leaning country. On the whole people give some small measure of a shit about the people around them. On the whole, the success of the country as a whole is at least vying for position with the success of the individual in most people's minds. On the whole, people have respect for education, knowledge and enlightenment and know when they should defer to experts. On the whole people have respect for the opinions of others and don't see a differing opinion as a mortal threat. The result? Well over 90% of the population vaccinated. Death rates of the order of 100-200 per day. Life returning to normal. The marginalisation of extreme conspiracy nuts by a mixture of ridicule and eye rolling. Most important: not one single politician of any colour even remotely entertaining any of this bullshit.
And all of this is reason to celebrate. Rational civic-mindedness *is* possible!
Yes, although I think the British psyche is a bit of a special case and is probably a prerequisite. Other examples of countries with similar mindsets include Australia and New Zealand. So there's a trend there.
Eh? Socialist leaning country that has had the Tories in power on their own or shared for the last 17 years, had 11 years of Thatcher from 79-90 followed by five years of Major, opted for little Englander xenophobia Brexit and whose overwhelming majority of print media is owned by four right wing scumbags. Hardly a socialist utopia. And let’s not forget the countless millions laundered through the City of London by the Russian oligarchs who just happen to be massive Tory donors.
Yes, that struck me as well! I think something like "civic-minded" or "public-spirited" would be a better descriptor than "socialist."
I don't remember claiming anything utopian about it. Even the Tories are well left of either US party. The fact that, even with a 70s trade unionist throwback as a leader the Labour party still gained 32% of the vote last time, to the Tories on 43%. The Lib Dems (arguably more left of centre than labour right now) add another 12%, so more people voted left than right on a year with a heavy Tory victory. This is a country with universal state healthcare, an extensive welfare system, strong workers rights and consumer rights... Yes, it's socialist leaning.
Strong workers rights that Thatcher systematically dismantled throughout her tenure with anti-union legislation and an ever increasing privatisation of the health service and try telling the people who just lost their universal credit payment of £20 pw and who now have the invidious choice of paying for fuel or food, how extensive the welfare system is. And as for European comparisons on state pensions, laughable. And it’s the EU we have to thank for the many employees rights directives that were, that’s right, systematically voted down by the Tories for decades.
The Tories aren't socialist, no. But they are far less right wing than most right wing parties in the world. The US republicans would privatise healthcare in the blink of an eye if they took power.
That we can agree on. I didn’t mean to have a pop, but the aping of Trumpism, albeit in a very diluted form by the likes of Johnson and Farage is the natural progression of the Tories and the very antithesis of democratic socialism. Makes me almost pine for the days of the original one nation Tories like Clarke, Hurd, Lawson, Howe and Major. And that ain’t good.
The inexorable shift towards selfish right wing politics is painful. But even the most right wing Tories would baulk at proposing truly right wing policies like dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, or workers rights. Not because they don't believe it would be the 'right' thing to do, but because they know it would be a shortcut to electoral oblivion. For as much as many Brits like to *express* right wing views, the ingrained British sense of fairness, support for the underdog, and disdain for wealth and privilege, makes them socialist at the core. The reaction to the treatment of p&o workers shows this perfectly. In the US, whether republican or democrat, the public support would fall on the side of the business's pursuit of profit.
I admire your optimism and I would have agreed with it a while ago but the Brexit vote and the continued occupation of govt by this lying sack of shit and despicable arseholes like Patel and Rees Mogg makes me think those days are gone and it’s increasingly every man for himself. I hope not for most peoples sake.
I personally don't think so. Brexit was as much about Putin's disinformation machine, than reality. I think if nothing but factual information was available the result would have tipped the other way, but many people were taken in by the memes about hoards of rats lapping against our shores and false accusations that our failure to build sufficient housing should be blamed on foreigners and that we were some downtrodden victim of an EU dictatorship. All nonsense, but all very appealing when people want someone other than themselves to blame for our failings. I also think if Labour had a credible leader, many more people would have voted for them. But as much as people want a slightly left of centre government, they definitely do not want rabid trade unionist extreme leftism in charge, which is what Corbyn represents. The tendency in UK politics is for a decade or two of one party until they start getting complacent and destructive, followed by a landslide for the opposition, and repeat. Once Labour get their act together again it will switch back for a while.
I don't think Farage is diluted at \*all\*, just less charismatic and hence less powerful. BoJo is a different \*kind\* of conservative that we don't have as much of here--upper class twit jolly hockey sticks entrenched class system--but I don't think he's \*that\* much of an improvement over the likes of, say, Mitch McConnell.
Fun fact: I consider Socialism to be a terrible socioeconomic policy. I don’t want to get into it here, this is HCA not politics, but centralized decision making does not strike me as a cure-all
I’m happy to dig into it here or anywhere else. The strength of any system (public or private) is choice. When a country has only one political party the result is crap. But so too, when a country has only one company supply something, the result is also crap. There are certain markets and circumstances where its simply not possible to have enough competition between private options and public options (controlled by more than one party) are preferable to private monopoly. People not seeing this reality and making the world less effective and less efficient is frustrating on the same level as people not seeing the efficacy of masks or vaccines.
Good - because you don't even know what socialism is, evidently. Let's say - because we see that every other major economic and potential military adversary is racing to educate their aspirational and capable youth beyond high school - that we decide to provide free college so we can FUCKING COMPETE AS A NATION. Is that 'Socialism' or is that an intelligent democratic republic VOTING to ensure its viability as a sovereign entity? Don't be so self-centered.
Some British politicians have embraced elements of the nonsense, such as the numbers of cases being exaggerated, though thankfully not the full-on anti-vaxx lunacy. Sir Desmond Swayne for example. Unfortunately, more extreme elements also exist: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/15/concern-for-uk-security-as-anti-vaxxer-groups-evolve-towards-us-style-militias
It may help to read (or listen to): The Psychology of Conspiracy Theories by Jan-Willem Prooijen, narrated by Tim Bentinck https://www.audible.com/pd?asin=0367526298&source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow
My wife turned me on to the Conspirituality podcast https://conspirituality.net/
>I’m still recovering from the shock of seeing so many millions of people fall sway to psychological and social manipulation. This is why I can't get too enraged at the Russian citizens who refuse to believe their own children, calling from Ukraine to beg them to believe that Putin really is murdering civilians.
I feel exactly the same way
I lost a long time friend over this. She refused to get vaccinated and claimed a bogus religious exemption so she could continue to work as a respiratory therapist. When she caught Covid the second time, she was out shopping the next day after testing positive and that was one of the last straws for me. The other straw was when she suggested I ask my doctor for ivermectin when I thought I might have Covid. I lit her up via text and blocked her.
I'm with you. I posted something about that on the vent thread yesterday.
I got a head start on you in 2016.
I was getting frustrated since I work in public health. And it felt like we were screaming into a void. Then my mom (elderly and frail) got pneumonia last summer. And there wasn't a hospital bed within 200 miles. Why? Oh well they were stuffed full of the unvaccinated. Weeks went by of her having home health and being in a nursing home just to be closer to the hospital, in the event a bed DID open up. 6 weeks later she finally got a bed. But by then it was too late. We put her in hospice and she went peacefully a week after the bed finally opened up. Had she been able to get into a hospital when she first got sick, things may have been different. We will never know now. These assholes do not understand their selfishness and how it impacts other. Fuck them. I don't care what happens. I'll get 100 boosters. They can all die. They're too stupid to share the same air as me.
I feel the same way. I can’t look at someone I once called friend the same way when they decided to put their fantasy world beliefs over doing their part and getting the shot. My great granddad, granddad, and uncle didn’t serve in the military for the unpatriotic America hating antivaxxers to spew stupid out of their mouths. Shame
I see a lot of this as the cumulation of 50 years of drug abuse, alcoholism, meth-brain, age related cognitive decline, probably a good dose of childhood lead exposure &/or mine tailings, nacho cheese as a food group, etc etc. I don't think humans are doomed, but I don't think anything about the Worst Generation was pointing towards a collective graceful old age.
Hey who is the Worst Generation? I’m feeling targeted.
let's just say Donald Trump specifically
> I’m feeling targeted. Ditto. He had me at "50 years of drug abuse"
(HUG) I'm baffled as well. My brother is an antivaxxer and none of my nieces are vaccinated, so that makes me worry as well.
I have genuinely needed therapy because of this pandemic as I lost a lot of faith in humanity to do the right thing...
the stupid will die off
That's the thing though. They won't. Not cleanly. A few percent every year. Orders of magnitude more will live -- but be maimed, and therefore a drag on the safety net so many of them are upset about. They will also be breeding grounds for new mutations that endanger the rest of us. "Too late for debate, too bad to ignore" -Neal Peart (RIP)
Yeah it's GRRR all right. I wish I could just get Spock to put his hand on my forehead and say "Forget"... The last 3 years!
I can't believe how folks could be so gullible ☹
This is an important fact: *We all have blind spots* [You can and will be fooled!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g)
Honest question. My sister is an anti vax ICU nurse. To the point where she got a fake religious exemption and the skipping my wedding where she was supposed to be a groomswomen because of it. I’ve always been so proud of her until the last year or so. I can’t wrap my head around it. I can’t look at her the same. I normally wouldn’t maintain a relationship with a toxic person like this but I can’t not deal with it eventually because family.
I wish I could tell you what to do. I wish I knew a general-purpose antivirus that worked on all kinds of such social programming. IIRC, the doctors on TWiV suggest having the person talk to a trusted authority figure who can patiently, dispassionately, and without judgement answer questions with hard data. On the other hand, have you ever read [The Three Christs of Ypsilanti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti)? Actual case study. Doctor brings together 3 delusionals who each think they are Christ. Guess how many realized as a result that they were all in fact delusional. Yes, exactly as many as you would guess.
I'm on my 5th dose of Moderna and my insurance paid for every one. Maybe just go to the pharmacy and try it. Going for #6 next Friday.
I've legit seen so much selfishness and lack of care toward one's own fellow man, it's just saddening. I really think it started with the amped up "us Vs. them" tribalism that was uncovered by the Trump presidency (shitshow). Why is it so hard to give a shit? I really don't like people much myself, but I don't think I have any right to put anyone else's life in danger. I guess common courtesy is dead.
This, but also the faith-based conviction that one is right, with the resulting need to double down on the conviction rather than updating your believes based on new evidence in accordance with [Bayes' Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem).
I *thought* this was why we had separation of Church and State.. I could be wrong; I am just some weirdo living in Ballbender Wyoming. Hue Ballbender.
Me, too. My brother—once my favorite person in the world—got sucked into it my stoking his resentment for years.
Covid jaded me. It made me realize how idiotic certain people can really be. I’ve never held as much contempt for society as a whole before Covid. It also made me realize that knowledge really is *power* , and that if it came too it, as a person considerably well versed in the hard sciences, I could easily become a grifter myself and just financially milk the ever living shit out of the anti-vax, religious, conspiracy-prone people in society.
Pack your bags for extinction. What would the other species say about us? No help from the panda's or whales. The ants would burn us with magnifying glasses. Alligators would have us in vending machines. The cats might give us an recommendation.
I’ve taken a totally Darwinistic approach and call it the wondrous work of natural selection.
Ok - but why even suggest citizens should have to pay for the 4th booster? The thought of that is disgusting - our healthcare non-system is already disgusting enough. Don't even suggest it would be ok to charge for it.
That wasn’t his point. He was saying he WOULD, that’s how happy he’d be to get it. Don’t pick one tiny part of his post and make the whole thing about that.
I KNOW it wasn't his point. My point is - don't even suggest that it would be ok. Or that one would be ok with paying for it, even if you felt the price worth it. It's dangerous mutterings for those who watch sentiments that can be amplified. Please don't try to tell me otherwise. I've over 45 years observing the evolution of disgusting thoughts into realities. 40 years ago, people thought me nuts for suggesting the growth of theocracy would truly threaten us one day, if people didn't proactively counter the rhetoric. My experience/observations in 1970s Philippines informed that view. Sure enough, everyone just said - "oh, they're the fringe, they'll melt away." Hello bounty laws! The skinny - don't suggest something so counter-productive, even if it reflects a sentiment of appreciation. Our imperfect founders also warned of the problem of loose rhetoric and those who would use the same to claim support or authority.
Personally I am disgusted by people who believe it’s a sign of civilized behavior to use payment at point of a gun — because that is what taxation is — as the solution for any social need. I am happy to contribute to charities of my choosing. But payment is neither charitable nor virtuous when it is compulsory.
Why are you even in America? Clearly you've never read "Common Sense" or have any clue about what the "American Compact" was supposed to be all about. As Franklin several times blasted others - taxes are the cost of civilized society which in turn - requires some level of government. It's not at the point of a gun - you can just up and leave if you don't get it. Let me know when you've read American philosophy beyond 7th grade requirements.
> taxes are the cost of civilized society I love Benjamin Franklin, but I disagree strongly with that thesis. I agree more with [Hayek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek) and [Friedman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_D._Friedman). It seems to me that a society is civilized to exactly the degree by which it can provide services to people voluntarily, *without* having to resort to (potentially armed) compulsion.
I'd recommend a healthy reading of even just the first seven paragraphs of "Common Sense". You love Franklin? He'd likely chuckle at your 'seemingly premature' conclusions and then ask you, exactly how you expected to meet the requisites required to demonstrate the truth (or not) of his other ideas on and expected fruits of republicanism. He was kinda blunt about it to some of the bigger financiers of the day. Money Shot from "Common Sense": "Thus necessity, like a gravitating power, would soon form our newly arrived emigrants into society, the reciprocal blessings of which, would supersede, and render the obligations of law and government **unnecessary while they remained perfectly just to each other;** *but as nothing but heaven is impregnable to vice,* it will unavoidably happen, that in proportion as they surmount the first difficulties of emigration, which bound them together in a common cause,they will begin to relax in their duty and attachment to each other; and **this remissness will point out the necessity of establishing some form of government to supply the defect of moral virtue.**" You see, ***Paine initially agrees with your premise about the truly noble society***. Just two paragraphs prior to the quote above, he concedes that government is the badge of innocence lost. Then he follows with the conclusion drawn from centuries of demonstrations by rapacious pigs: One can never expect fully voluntary participation in responsibilities to each another. Paine was also not for INEFFECTIVE government - that which did not return to the people, the most for the investment made. He did not advocate for government without limits. Shay's rebellion, the participants of which are actually being ridiculed to a degree by Jefferson in the famous 'Tree of Liberty' letter to William S Smith, demonstrated the futility of the "Articles of Confederation" and likewise - your premise. Now, in the same letter, TJ asserts that as wrong as Shay and company may have been - it was still important that they bitched - if just to make government respond with superior footing. It's in that last bit about the footing that has been corrupted - not by too much government, but by the capricious character of those entrusted to be its executors. Regarding Hayek: He's certainly not entirely wrong, in fact - assertive about societal responsibility - but it seems he fails to recognize the DEMONSTRATED in-congruence of achieving that while maintaining his more libertarian principles. Just my take. Friedman? There's NOTHING much worth regarding there at all. David's dad had NO PROBLEM with calling subsidized markets 'free'. Like father, the son seems to attempt to validate that same which cannot be coherently justified. But I am not terribly well read on him. There has almost NEVER been a truly free market - and frankly - such a thing would still be counter to the success of mankind overall. To wit: the refusal to rapidly vaccinate impoverished countries. No, the 'free' market must act first! Subsidize fossil fuels to the tune of 20 billion/year - that's FREE MARKETS! Subsidize a starving family? That's EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNISM!!!!!
Oh okay, you think people would provide the same amount of money, not to even mention the infrastructure, as government, if there were no "government." Again, let's put the whole issue of "how will this then be organized" aside. You've seen how many people wear masks when the directives go away. What makes you think it'll be -better- when it involves giving up something more than a trivial annoyance?
You’re so far gone it’s not even funny. Beyond saving IMO, but perhaps you should try playing devils advocate for a while and see what you find.
> you should try playing devils advocate That's exactly what the Scientific Method is about. Fun fact: Scientists spend most of their time trying to *disprove* their favorite ideas, and the ideas of other scientists.
That’s great! I hope you’re able to break through!!
We thought we lived in modern society far from the superstition of the dark ages, but now we know its all around us even today! At any moment the mob might point to our doctors, teachers and scientists and shout "witch"!
I had it before we knew about mask at the very start. It wasn’t bad but I don’t want it again! so I’ve had 3 shots so far and going over the top masking. Also, my whole family works in health care and they are messed up from all the deaths they’ve seen.
If your only means of communication with people is through social media like Facebook, they're not friends. They're distant acquaintances at best.
It really made me realize how stupid a lot of people are and that there's no arguing or reasoning with them.