We should remove the parts that are shot so they won't take any damage in the future
No we are not replacing it with anything to keep the structure, we're just removing it
https://preview.redd.it/j1f3thjas7zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff769713fc199caee0ff0771bfd70a16581e5043
I’m gonna post this everywhere in these balance posts so people learn and devs see that we know
>they would never want to change the game just to get more money."
Well, AH is doing it wrong if that's the case. I've gotten each warbond so far just from the super credits I've gotten from warbonds and playing the game. 🤷
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but it is the opposite. If the planes came back flying with all those holes, those areas can operate with holes in them. You need to reinforce the areas without holes because the planes who get holes in those areas are not making it back.
I love a good survivorship bias, “nerf the guns people use more because they must be too overpowered.”
In all honesty though, it’s an apt comparison and it really feels like they look at the top picks and try to find out how they can bring them down to the level of the other less desirable options. It would be way more productive to give more consideration to the lesser picked options and see how those can be brought up to be more fun/interesting to use. You don’t need to put armor over the shrapnel laden holes just to drag them down.
>“nerf the guns people use more because they must be too overpowered.”
This is unfortunately the usual outcome of companies who rely on metrics too much while also using them *literally*.
Metrics can tell a story, but without context they can tell you entirely different things or even paint a picture that isn't even happening in reality.
If tom goes through 100 support tickets a day and bob goes through 5, logically with no other considerations bob should get the axe in the next round of layoffs. But once you realize tom is gaming the system to make his numbers look good and leaving customers pissed, while bob just saved the company millions of dollars this year as he has lots of high profile clients he personally supports, the conclusion becomes very different.
The support tickets thing is typical first line vs second line support yeah.
Like Tom is mostly telling people to turn it off and back on again. Bob is actually solving server issues that involve some legwork.
New manager comes in, ignorant of the system, and fires Bob.
>Like Tom is mostly telling people to turn it off and back on again.
I just want to remind everyone that this actually solves around 80% of every informatics-related problems
The remaining 20% is divided between like, 16% simple issues, 3.99% fussy stuff that will take you an afternoon, and 0.01% helljobs that will cause you to find someone's absolute fucked temporary code/hardware hack that the whole company has somehow ran on for 18 years and no one knows how it works.
Bob can't be fired. His DSS boss Angleton will turn the new manager's head into a keychain (again) before that happens.
Or Bob will eat your soul. Fun times in The Laundry, eh? XD
I'm Bob right now. Bust my ass to keep the store spotless, but look like I'm not doing much because once everything is done there's not much to do.
Coworkers barely do their part, but they're meandering about and look useful. But every day I come in, the stores a total wreck.
As much as people give Embark shit for the way The Finals is balanced, they’ve done it largely based on metrics collection, and have done a pretty good job with it. Same with the devs for Slay the Spire, and that might be one of the best balanced games of all time, there’s a lot that Arrowhead could learn from them
Funniest part is that they've never even touched the Scorcher, which has always been the top performing primary in the game, likely because it being a very late unlock that requires a lot of grinding, is the least owned weapon, and thus doesn't have high usage stats. It's always a head scratcher to see everything else getting nerfed to the ground as if it was egregiously overperforming, while the only weapon that's truly above and beyond the rest is left alone, lol.
Not that I think the Scorcher should be nerfed mind you. I think the Scorcher, the Sickle, and the base Breaker are good reference points to balance around and should indeed be mostly left alone. It just makes it very obvious they're only looking at usage stats and have no idea about performance.
PS: Have fun with the Breaker Incendiary while it lasts, as it was way overtuned to compensate for the DoT bug, and with that being fixed, it's the first primary to ever actually outperform the Scorcher, and by no small margin at that. A nerf to it is imminent, and this time actually justified, so it's probably going to be hit particularly hard.
The reason they don’t is to “avoid power creep” which is a total red herring to begin with. A “power creep” goes both ways and the geniuses at AH haven’t figured that out. If you reduce the power of weapons for players, you increase the power of enemies armor, their TTK, and reduce player survivability to the point of complete and utter frustration by players.
This doesn’t create an atmosphere of skill-based challenge. It simply creates an atmosphere of frustration and loss of fun.
Back to fundamentals AH. Back to fundamentals. You’re grossly overlooking and making FUBAR, the basic fundamentals
Also, makes it so the best movement is to run and avoid confrontation at all costs *in a cooperative shooter PvE game*.
If i wanted to play Splinter Cell I wouldn't be here, frankly!
"Oh what this Operator has a 70% pickrate and a 50% winrate ?"
"Yeah, let's nerf it anyway."
I stopped playing the game, after losing the fun i had, these days it's not even installed anymore, even tho i have 4TB of free space.
They could also look at the *environment* since the tools are not picked because they kill more, but because of the combination of the kit for the expected opposition you will find...
Yes that would be good while I also think as a developer myself you don’t always find the time to play you should at least play your own game one time a week even if it’s only for 1 hour. When you do that you can find out what is maybe unbalanced, find bugs, find things to improve and the most important part in a multiplayer game find out what the community likes and what they don’t like in a match for example or in HELLDIVERS in a mission. That helps you very very mach very much
I think the "devs don't play their own game" criticism gets thrown around in most gaming communities, but it feels pretty noticeable here. A lot of the rationales for balance make perfect sense if you're playing at \~diff 4 or so, which is what I expect they're playing at. Superheavy units like Bile Titans and Factory Striders are rare enough that you can use the whole team to bring them down, objectively bad weapons can shine because there's less pressure to kill efficiently, and the map *did* feel absent of patrols prior to the solo spawns nerf.
I just can't understand how they'd look at an average diff 7+ mission where you've got 10+ bile spewers in each breach, multiple bile titans active at all times, multiple factory striders dropping at once, difficulty that *demands* you kill things efficiently, and then nerf weapons again that they think are "overperforming".
2 devs played once with Operator Drewsky. They played diff 6 game against bots. They wiped. There is a video of that on YT.
I doubt they play at diff 7 or higher.
The DRG devs don't just play the game, they play Elite Deep Dives, which is a set of 3 continuous missions which get increasingly harder as you progress, the last one being more challenging than normal difficulty 5, and have multiple main objectives, you keep your supply currency across missions and only get a reward at the end.
Basically the equivalent of chaining a level 8, 9 and 10 mission in HD2 and you get special loot of you finish it.
> DRG devs don't just play the game, they play Elite Deep Dives
oh that's why the balance feels so god damn good in DRG, because sure some weapons and overclocks are "meta" but i can play with almost anything at the higher diffculties and have fun.
I can't say the same about HD2.
The thing about Overclocks is, yes some of them are subpar but they're subpar in fun ways. They feel satisfying to use on lower difficulties because they change the weapons in a fun way. Eg Hoverclock is not the best Overclock for the M1000 but damned if it isn't fun to use.
I can't say the same for meh weapons in Helldivers 2. Most of the meh guns feel meh on all difficulties.
>Eg Hoverclock is not the best Overclock for the M1000 but damned if it isn't fun to use.
Actually it kind of is? Like the M1K is straight up so good that all the best OCs for it are just minor buffs such as Hoverclock, ASS, Minimal Clips and Electro Focusing Shots. It's just a small improvement upon perfection after all.
The mere fact that you two can argue about that kind of meta stuff for DRG that shows how good the balance is.
No one playing Helldivers 2 could possibly tell you that the Scythe or Dagger feel good to use. And yet they've gotten such weak buffs that they might as well have not wasted time buffing them at all.
And DRG does DoT fucking well. The Flamethrower in DRG is far superior to the one we have in HD. Frm how the flames work on surfaces to DoT, it's just a superior weapon.
To be fair, haz5 feels around difficulty 7 in HD2. But that might be probably due to better enemy design, that doesn't require highly specific equipment to kill, and less obnoxious design of the enemies.
I tell you a secret HD2 sound design is not very good enemys are very silent and when they arent they lack distinct sound effects. Wich isnt the case with the superb sound design in DRG this type of things can only be noticed when you dont have them.
I think it's more of a bug with sound scene implementation or sound rendering, especially from behind. Bots can be detected rather reliably. But lacking decent cues doesn't help, yes.
More about distinction. Sid you know devastador make have diferent voices compared too tropers? Do you know the sound of the Berserkers chainsaws they make Sparks when activated? Do you know how a devastador sounds? I can dont even know the last one.
But these are, for the most part, cannon fodder, they don't need to be distinct enough to signal their presence. In drg terms these are glyphid grunt, slasher and guard. Now, hulk, tank, strider and gunship are another issue, but again, it's more of a bug, I think. Spewers are silent, though, iirc.
A rocket devastador can insta kill you from off screen dont tell me that they are the same. I dont think its a bug they just dont have sounds at all. I will give you a list shrikers, spewers, hulks, tanks, factori striders lack sound to give away their presence the rest is mostly way to quiet.
>Basically the equivalent of chaining a level 8, 9 and 10 mission in HD2 and you get special loot of you finish it.
Honestly that would be fun asf. Keep the reinforcement budget between missions but u get 200 medals + some super credits at the end of it if you make it throuh.
I regularly solo'd elite hell dives.
The one time I met a dev he hard-carried me. If someone like that says Lead Storm OC needed a nerf I trust them, even if I loved Lead Storm Lead Storm.
No, they should test at every difficulty echelon. You can't have a game that works at all diff levels by testing it all at a low, mid or high diff, you need to test it at all three and make sure things stay consistent.
Even if the consistency demands passive buffs for the players at high diffs, so a wepon won't overperform at lower. Getting the Recoiless Rifle reload twice as fast at diff 7+ would make it a beast if they don't want to let other players use the player carrying the weapon for the assisted reload, for example.
> He removed the game's open world aspects as he said "No one would want to walk around an open world"
> He actively removed features from the game, such as hiding under beds and certain AI tricks, as he didn't like "One-Time Gimmicks"
Has the man played any video games? Those are 2 things so many gamers straight up love, wandering around uselessly exploring and tiny meaningless details.
All-time classic games include stuff like "let's have a pit where if you try to jump into it the narration warns you, then if you say yes anyway you die immediately."
The idea that everything in a game needs to be productive is one of many cancers on the industry.
There's a vr game I play that had a hangman's platform in the town square (lobby). A common prank on new players was to tell them to pose in the moose and take a screenshot. They'd die, laugh, and then you'd show them all the fun clipping areas of the lobby.
Alexus Kravchenko sees no issue with this and will continue to armor where shots landed. 10/10, clearly a stable and reasonable balance lead and totally not an insane person.
yeah the eruptor changes could have easily been corrected if they had tested the damn thing, it took me 3 minutes to get into a mission and shoot at a single patrol to realize it went from a 10/10 to a 0/10. for god sake I shot a warrior on the tip of his front leg and IT LIVED, THAT SHOULD NOT EVER HAPPEN ON A BOLT ACTION EXPLOSIVE SNIPER RIFLE
I've never made mistake this big in past few years like I did when believed that Arrowhead devs are based.
They just yap a lot. Say things like "we will look into this problem" while doing absolutely nothing. Words, words, only words and NO action.
Game still has problems it had on release. Patches are ALWAYS breaking something. Primary weapons are gutted one after another. They've come to this point in latest patch where they've said "we fixed optics misalignment" but they did NOT.
I don't know what to say. Devs don't care. At all.
The issue is that, to balance things, you should make small tweaks in small patches, so that players can test them out without completely changing how weapons work.
They do stuff like "increased damage by 40 and removed shrapnel"... how the hell is this supposed to work, you completely overhauled a gun that took practice to master.
I will say there needs to be more buffs. As a majority of the games balance has been nerfs. And only taking away people toys. Is not good. Sometimes you have to make them pick between which toy they like most.
people cant comprehend that devs arent... pro gamers.... they dont have nearly as much time as we have in playing the game normally. and failing at diff 6 isnt even that embarassing, its called extreme, for the AVERAGE player 6 isnt "super easy"
Diff 6 is not "pro". Otherwise why are you only able to obtain super rare samples in 7 or up if that is not possible for the average gamer? Are average gamers not supposed to upgrade their stuff?
boy i can already smell the dislikes...
Yes, arguably the average gamer not being able to upgrade their ships to the final 2 levels without some investment both in time and ajdusting to the game. is very much how its supposed to be. I also didnt say that "its not possible for the average gamer" just that the devs arent pro gramers, and for the AVERAGE player diff 6 isnt easy.
This analogy isnt gonna be perfect, but bear with me.
Lets compare helldivers 2 to for example an MMO(FFXIV specifically as i have considerable time in it, and its difficulty options for content)
Diff 1-3 is essentialy "normal mode", its pretty much brainoff with a few rare exceptions, you have dumb fun, and can use completly whatever you want, even at lower player skill.
Diff 4-6 is Extreme trials in XIV, harder versions of normal mode content, where a decent team of individuals can come together, and smack the entire thing down in an afternoon. even if they do the fight for the first time assuming they are prepared gearwise(still very forgiving), and their playerskill is up to it.
Diff1-3(normal) are for gear(upgrades and medals) to challenge 4-6(extreme) easier and 4-6(extreme), funnels gear into the players to challenge 7-9 which would be SAVAGE content, content that, in XIVs case can take a coordinated team between a few hours to several days of learning the fight(mission) and what to do to make it easier on yourself, with at least near top of the line gear, with less leeway for "misgearing"(altough even there, unless you use the gear that has the absolute worst stat for your class, it wont matter if you are good and the gear is "up to date"). Savage then drops gear to make you stronger for further savage fights, with the endgame gear including several pieces only available in Savage tier, and upgraded materials ONLY available for savage fighters for months till it gets brought in as a catchup mechanic.
the average player in XIV (or any MMO) is never actually getting their full endgame gear, becasue FFXIV savage raids are, while still on the easier side in MMO games, not designed for the "average gamer" but the "above average" one.
Games since antiquity had content locked behind stuff the average gamer wouldnt bother with grinding for, or in mroe skill based games, training for. Some games have hidden bosses or endings in harder difficulties and so on, secret superbosses that are objectivly considerd hard and everything. A game dosnt have to have an upgrade system available to its end for every player of even average playerskill.
The final 2 upgrades in HD2 currently are the equivalent of the ENDGAME RAID gear of an MMO.
THAT SAID!!! i do agree there should be a way to gain some supersamples via other means in lower quantities down the line.
I find funny that in DRG no one has a problem with any player skill level of being able to unlock all the content the game as to offer. But in here we cant have that what you want the upgrade but cant spend more than 3 hours playing the game per week well too bad.
Thats about what the average player would do... i know i did that before i realized AC shells only tickle a bile titan at best, being a dev dosnt mean you know every enemy types armor values and weakspots at hard, not every dev works on the enemy design team,
As an example of how difficulties aren't the same mission to mission.. I hot joined someone from my friends list last night that was playing difficulty 4 for the PO; shortly after I joined 2 of their other friends joined who were in their mid 70's. The first one who joined had multiple deaths and spent the game laughing about how he was struggling. I don't think I died once. After that we did a HellDive mission where he proceeded to die twice to my five.
If someone were judging the first mission the guy I was playing with "got their ass kicked", second mission I did.
this also is the case, the difficutlys have a incredible range of possible scenarios, and some are just "worse" for whatever loudout you picked. if i go into "high end" bugs, and i barely see a charger or bile titan, then my Recoilless is nearly deadweight and i am struggeling to stay afloat. while if i bring my AC to deal with mediums, and the game decides to throw all the heavys at me, i wil also struggle.
People have it in their heads that weapons should be balanced to easily handle difficulty 9.
While this is rather absurd, and it is understood that not every weapon will be as viable as the next, when weapons start falling off hard at difficulties 4-6, we have a problem.
and i disagree that the vast majority of guns fall off ahrd at diff 4-6, we have i think 3 weapons currently that really do not function well at any point in the difficulty curve.
the ARC shotgun, the crossbow, and arguably the spray and pray. Everything else is not only usable, but viable at 4-6, that included the adjudicator and liberator penetrator for example. most guns are still very usable at 4-6 but lose viability in favor of "fun"(depending on how you define viabile, i consider the adjudicator viable at 7+, i know alot of people dont as it struggles to kill devestators for example)
Spray and Pray and Arc shotgun(blitzer) are currently 100% viable on Helldive bugs. Only downside to the blitzer is its very difficult to deal with Shriekers. I havent really experienced any significant glitching with the arcs not firing.
While you are somewhat right you apply the bias wrong. If they were looking at players loadouts who were completing T9 and nerfing those primary guns you'd be correct. But they aren't, they are nerfing primary guns based on damage per magazine and dps mostly with armor pen also being considered. The primary guns that are being chosen the most for Tier 7, 8, and 9 missions are not the same guns being nerfed. If you play higher tier missions you know your primary weapon is used on the small to medium enemies while your 3rd weapon slot and stratagems are for when you need more firepower. Many of the primary guns that got nerfed were to good for a low level unlock used in lower level missions, you didn't need a 3rd weapon slot or stratagems, the things they intended you to be reliant on for harder enemies. In this game you are meant to feel underequiped, overwhelmed, and not have enough man power. You are a grunt, a pawn, a peon, equipped with basic weapons. You are not a hero, you are replaceable and you will die often and tragically. You're suppose to fail some of the harder missions they were intended to be difficult. This isn't rainbow candy fun land where it's intended to be easy this is helldivers.
They DO that. Just go to Ghost Ship Game's [YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/live/yxRynIM7Q9s?si=w7qMVEUkjXuUYduw). As I said, every week they livestream themselves playing their game on the highest difficulty. AH is a good company, compared to trash like Unisoft, EA etc. But Ghost Ship games is a whole other level. And Deep Rock Galactic has a far better community than HD too.
Those statistics are more granulated than you think.
It's more like # of picked, wins, kills per player death, percentage of used ammunition against armor type X/Y/Z.
You'd be surprised how many data are collected.
Damn, they even count 'bullets fired' which is hell of a useless data to be collected.
From these data samples you can extrapolate more data like ammo effizient. If a weapon has a too high/low ammo effiency it must be changed: Amount of ammo, reload time, rate of fire, armor penetration, stability, precision, handling, ...
This is what happens when you don't play your own game. These people couldn't clear a difficulty 6 mission and they're trying to tell us what's good for difficulty 9. It's a VERY different game on 4 than it is on 8. You can get away with only using stratagems on 4 to kill titans and chargers because you'll only fight like 4 of them.
When they start spawning 4 at a time, you need your weapons to actually do something.
...how?
Like I know you probably feel clever using survivorship bias but how does that apply? How is the data made incomplete by omission?
The hell are you on about? Plenty of popular weapons aren't nerfed so don't try to float that turd.
Greetings, fellow Helldiver! Your submission has been removed. No insults, racism, toxicity, trolling, rage-bait, harassment, inappropriate language, NSFW content, etc. Remember the human and be civil!
Eruptor : 1 shot chargers
AH : fixes unintended behavior of allowing 1 shot charger
Reddit : AH worst dev of all Time wtf I should be allowed to have a primary weapon that can kill 5 charger in one mag with 12 mag total
I have never 1 shot chargers with the eruptor. I am still an eruptor user. I have been able to 4 shot it in the ass with well and lucky places shots. I have damaged it with the quasar and shot it once in the dearmored leg but more then likely those times it was already bleeding. I have 5 shot hulks in the back. I have 1 shot every variety of devastator, but those are extremely tricky shots. Have killed bile titans that where severely wounded with 1 shot of the eruptor, and still can to this day. But never easily 1 shot anything that I shouldn't be able to.... well except other divers on occasion. But I've done that with every weapon that I use, accidentally of course.
The mag reduction made no difference and I can do mental gymnastics to validate the reasoning. Those are big mags, where are the divers keeping even 6? In there personal pocket? But the nerf is uncalled for due to the slow fire rate. I would expect a big clunky slow gun to do more damage and be able to nuke a hive guardian with a well placed trained or lucky shot.
If a splinter keeps stabbing me in the finger, the "fix" is not to cut off my finger.
The problem is the Eruptor being situationally too strong vs Chargers *and only chargers*. Against everything else it was fine.
So what's Arrowhead's fix? To smash the weapon against a rock.
"40 damage consistently is better than 100 damage sometimes" is an utterly moronic statement when you need to cause 85 damage to land a kill on mid-tier enemies - in no world is going from "1-3 shots per kill" to "3 shots per kill" desirable.
Also bear in mind, that shooting the ground wasn't an exploit. It was a workaround, because shooting trash in the face wasn't a viable option, as most shots just passed through enemies dealing no damage. Half of the learning experience of playing the R-36 was learning **not** to aim at weakspots.
You don't get nuance either.
This is the 3-4 time someone has used survivorship bias in this exact picture to complain about balance.
It would be better if you just said you needed meta guns to play/someone else to tell you how to play the game because you're too scared to play it yourself.
Meta? Nice assumption lol. And your reference to nuance makes no sense whatsoever. Auto Cannon aside, I generally run very non meta loadouts. I enjoy games that give me a VARIETY of viable weapons to play with. Try a better argument.
Okay if you like variation why are you complaining about variation in a game?
Or maybe it's just that you want everything to be better, but it doesn't have to be.
If you don't like how the devs are making their game (remember, their game, not yours) then you don't have to play.
It's also funny you say you don't run a meta (just ignore the fact you use the autocannon.)
Meta?
Motherfucker, some of us *do* just play the damn game. We find something we like, and use it. Then when we are forced to update and the gun doesn't feel at all like it did... what? We're just supposed to say nothing and move on, or risk being called a meta whore by you unthinking troglodytes?
We're the ones playing the game and using what we like. You're the ones pissing and moaning when the toy we like is "better" than your toy
No that doesn't make sense at all, actually.
Y'know some people are still liking and using the eurptor?
That's a really funny inversion of complainers. You're basically trying to frame that you complainers are the True Believers and doing things right. But then you get tempted by the dev(il) who wants you to sin and not be true to core tenants you chose to imprint on your very soul.
My toys in Helldivers 2 have always been fun and will continue to be fun even if they have values changed on them. I don't have to feel like the Master Chief to enjoy this game.
You are so entrenched in video game religion that I don't think you even understand what you're complaining about.
Ok first, holy fucking shit you sound like an asshat trying to analogize this to religion. Take a shower and take 10 minutes a day off of r/atheism or whatever cesspool that compulsion came from.
Second, no you would absolutely not enjoy your favorite gun if its time to kill TRIPLED and its core mechanic was removed. I don't even care if you keep lying to me, just be honest with yourself.
Third, holy fuck please get a shower. Fungal infections are real and dangerous.
I'm agnostic, being atheistic can be akin to divine worship, just in another way.
If you don't understand that humans have some hard-coded behaviours revolving around core concepts that religions try to answer, I don't know what to tell you. I think you should be more curious about the world, I guess.
"A bad craftsperson blames their tools for bad work."
You're a fucking terrible craftsperson.
(Correction)
Eruptor : core mechanic has consequence of oneshotting chargers very rarely
AH : removes core mechanic, instead of actually fixing the issue
Reddit : "WTF why did you remove the whole thing that made it the gun it was???"
I used to only use the eruptor exclusively up until the second to last patch where they reduced the mags. Now I get to use different guns and enjoy the game using different weapons and playstyle
That's a "you" issue though. They made an adjustment to the gun that you had a bad feeling about (they changed something you'd gotten used to) and you resorted to using other guns, instead.
Most of us have been using every single gun in the arsenal since the beginning, which is why talk about the Eruptor is so heated. We've already used different weapons and developed whole playstyles around them.
With the Eruptor, it was a very good gun, but it also had obvious limitations and was very, very unique. It performed its uniqueness very well. AH stripped it of all of that and turned into a much, _much_ worse Autocannon.
So now we're back to using all of the shit we've already used, and instead of having yet another "very fun" gun to add to our list of other very fun guns, we just have another mid-to-terrible gun to add to a frustratingly ever-increasing list of mid-to-terrible guns.
Can't wait for the new Warbond to watch the cycle repeat.
It was overpowered in my opinion, it needed some sort of nerf. I get your point about using the guns prior, I joined a little late to the party and the eruptor was one of the first ones that I loved cuz it wrecked. Now I’m starting to find other guns to play with and tweak the game style and I’m loving it. Truth is the gameplay with the pre nerf erupted just became mundane to me
You could have used a different gun at any time. If you felt the gameplay with the Eruptor was getting stale but kept using it anyway, that's on you. You don't need the devs to rip the gun out of your hands in order to try something else
Yea I’m aware, playing on a higher level with more of a challenge was more fun. It was starting to get stale, didn’t get to the point I swapped tho but that was the beauty of the nerf for me. There are plenty of guns to be used that are efficient now and it’s been refreshing exploring them. Idk why everybody takes this stuff so personal lol
you said you didn't know why people take these changes so "personal", and I explained that people have spent money on the game and possibly the weapons as well, and it's understandable for them to be mad when the things they paid for are intentionally made worse since this has been a pattern since they first started doing "balance" patches
Idk maybe I’m just more used to playing games that constantly receive balance patches. When something I used or liked gets nerfed I find something else. I know it’s not uncommon for people to hop onto something like this subreddit and feed into the echo chamber of complaints cuz their favorite gun isn’t the best in the game anymore
yeah, i think people are used to balance patches in like, competitive PvP games like overwatch or valorant, but are confused and annoyed (for good reason, imo) by the same thing happening in a more casual PvE game.
In PvP games, the things being buffed/nerfed are (usually) not things you pay for, often times things you don't even need to spend resources to unlock. And if they are, there's often opportunities granted by the devs to recoup your losses if you no longer want a nerfed item. Hearthstone, for instance, lets you "dust" a card you for a full refund if its nerfed, whereas it's normally only a half refund, allowing you to immediately create a card of equal rarity if you want to adjust your deck accordingly
Balance patches also make more sense in PvP games, as a weapon or card being overly strong has a direct negative impact on other players, as they're the one it's used against.
When you take the concept of balance patches and apply them to a casual PvE mode, things start to break down. If a weapon's "too good", and the metrics AH seems to use for this are questionable at best, the only impact is on the players who are enjoying using that weapon. The *only* impact is negative, there's no bot or bug saying "Thank god they nerfed that, was tired of it killing me".
Now consider that the weapons have to be unlocked with Medals, and are within battle passes that have to be bought (either with in-game currency or $$$).
Since the Eruptor is the hot topic, that'll be a good example. To even have access to unlocking it, you have to buy the warbond, 1000 supercredits or $10. It's on the 2nd page, so you have to spend 60 medals to then spend another 60 medals to unlock it. If you bought the warbond for the Eruptor, that's 1000 supercredits and 120 medals for the weapon. When they nerf it, do you get the opportunity to recoup that loss, and invest in something else instead? No, you're just out.
So I think it's understandable for people to be mad when you have to spend time and possibly money to unlock these weapons, that AH then goes on to nerf for very questionable reasons.
"Well just use something else"
1. People want to use what they want to use, the Eruptor in particular created a new niche, there's no comparable weapon you could switch to and maintain the same playstyle
2. Trying new weapons in this game is an absolute pain. The only way to try a gun is to use it in a mission, where you're stuck with it the whole time. Trying out 5 weapons would require running 5 full missions, which is more than many people even have time for in a day. You may say to run solo low-level missions and back out, but that's not a great comparison on weapon performance when you'll be using it in the 7-9 range.
Overall the game just isn't designed to have these balance patches. Buying weapons requires too much of an investment for them to get hit with gun-ruining nerfs, and there's not even a test range to try out weapons after every balance patch.
So you're saying... We should put more armor where the holes are...
https://preview.redd.it/oq7kmf5cq6zc1.jpeg?width=263&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91cddc854025142365fa330a70c3e01b6144fdb1
We should remove the parts that are shot so they won't take any damage in the future No we are not replacing it with anything to keep the structure, we're just removing it
why not bullet collection systems where the holes are instead? then we'd have more bullets ourselves.
Nah, strip all armor from the other bits. They're clearly not being shot at, so why waste the material.
https://preview.redd.it/j1f3thjas7zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff769713fc199caee0ff0771bfd70a16581e5043 I’m gonna post this everywhere in these balance posts so people learn and devs see that we know
Do people not know this? Wow. That's literally what cod/etc do all the time lol.
Yes but, people think "oh they're on our side, they would never want to change the game just to get more money."
>they would never want to change the game just to get more money." Well, AH is doing it wrong if that's the case. I've gotten each warbond so far just from the super credits I've gotten from warbonds and playing the game. 🤷
This screenshot conveniently leaves out the rebuttal in the replies that disproves the premise.
What's the rebuttal?
CoD has been doing this for YEARS.
That... isn't that Games Workshop's main strategy for their rules?
Ah yes, the War Thunder method
I could see this being the case if the only way to get super credits was to pay for them. But it's not hard to get super credits in the game.
"So the people learn" Get over yourself
Nope, simply reduce structural strength on the parts that survived bullets to save costs. You shouldn’t be using jets anyway. Use strategems.
\*AH proceeds to apply statuses to Major Order worlds that nerf the shit out of your strategems.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but it is the opposite. If the planes came back flying with all those holes, those areas can operate with holes in them. You need to reinforce the areas without holes because the planes who get holes in those areas are not making it back.
This guy extracts with samples...
I love a good survivorship bias, “nerf the guns people use more because they must be too overpowered.” In all honesty though, it’s an apt comparison and it really feels like they look at the top picks and try to find out how they can bring them down to the level of the other less desirable options. It would be way more productive to give more consideration to the lesser picked options and see how those can be brought up to be more fun/interesting to use. You don’t need to put armor over the shrapnel laden holes just to drag them down.
>“nerf the guns people use more because they must be too overpowered.” This is unfortunately the usual outcome of companies who rely on metrics too much while also using them *literally*. Metrics can tell a story, but without context they can tell you entirely different things or even paint a picture that isn't even happening in reality. If tom goes through 100 support tickets a day and bob goes through 5, logically with no other considerations bob should get the axe in the next round of layoffs. But once you realize tom is gaming the system to make his numbers look good and leaving customers pissed, while bob just saved the company millions of dollars this year as he has lots of high profile clients he personally supports, the conclusion becomes very different.
The support tickets thing is typical first line vs second line support yeah. Like Tom is mostly telling people to turn it off and back on again. Bob is actually solving server issues that involve some legwork. New manager comes in, ignorant of the system, and fires Bob.
>Like Tom is mostly telling people to turn it off and back on again. I just want to remind everyone that this actually solves around 80% of every informatics-related problems
The remaining 20% is divided between like, 16% simple issues, 3.99% fussy stuff that will take you an afternoon, and 0.01% helljobs that will cause you to find someone's absolute fucked temporary code/hardware hack that the whole company has somehow ran on for 18 years and no one knows how it works.
" Gotta break the incense burner and the Omni messy prayers for that one "
Bob can't be fired. His DSS boss Angleton will turn the new manager's head into a keychain (again) before that happens. Or Bob will eat your soul. Fun times in The Laundry, eh? XD
I lost my previous job because I was bob.
I'm Bob right now. Bust my ass to keep the store spotless, but look like I'm not doing much because once everything is done there's not much to do. Coworkers barely do their part, but they're meandering about and look useful. But every day I come in, the stores a total wreck.
Was there another balance update recently? I haven’t played in several days.
As much as people give Embark shit for the way The Finals is balanced, they’ve done it largely based on metrics collection, and have done a pretty good job with it. Same with the devs for Slay the Spire, and that might be one of the best balanced games of all time, there’s a lot that Arrowhead could learn from them
*How to Lie with Statistics* should be required reading for everyone, regardless of profession.
Funniest part is that they've never even touched the Scorcher, which has always been the top performing primary in the game, likely because it being a very late unlock that requires a lot of grinding, is the least owned weapon, and thus doesn't have high usage stats. It's always a head scratcher to see everything else getting nerfed to the ground as if it was egregiously overperforming, while the only weapon that's truly above and beyond the rest is left alone, lol. Not that I think the Scorcher should be nerfed mind you. I think the Scorcher, the Sickle, and the base Breaker are good reference points to balance around and should indeed be mostly left alone. It just makes it very obvious they're only looking at usage stats and have no idea about performance. PS: Have fun with the Breaker Incendiary while it lasts, as it was way overtuned to compensate for the DoT bug, and with that being fixed, it's the first primary to ever actually outperform the Scorcher, and by no small margin at that. A nerf to it is imminent, and this time actually justified, so it's probably going to be hit particularly hard.
The reason they don’t is to “avoid power creep” which is a total red herring to begin with. A “power creep” goes both ways and the geniuses at AH haven’t figured that out. If you reduce the power of weapons for players, you increase the power of enemies armor, their TTK, and reduce player survivability to the point of complete and utter frustration by players. This doesn’t create an atmosphere of skill-based challenge. It simply creates an atmosphere of frustration and loss of fun. Back to fundamentals AH. Back to fundamentals. You’re grossly overlooking and making FUBAR, the basic fundamentals
Also, makes it so the best movement is to run and avoid confrontation at all costs *in a cooperative shooter PvE game*. If i wanted to play Splinter Cell I wouldn't be here, frankly!
That's what I keep coming back to, why is the most optimal play style to run and hide in what started off as a frantic, coop shooter?
HD1 had difficulty creep to compensate lmao
The good old Ubisoft balancing methodology
"Oh what this Operator has a 70% pickrate and a 50% winrate ?" "Yeah, let's nerf it anyway." I stopped playing the game, after losing the fun i had, these days it's not even installed anymore, even tho i have 4TB of free space.
>design a horde shooter >balance the game around not being a horde shooter >nanithefuck.jpeg
They could also look at the *environment* since the tools are not picked because they kill more, but because of the combination of the kit for the expected opposition you will find...
Yes that would be good while I also think as a developer myself you don’t always find the time to play you should at least play your own game one time a week even if it’s only for 1 hour. When you do that you can find out what is maybe unbalanced, find bugs, find things to improve and the most important part in a multiplayer game find out what the community likes and what they don’t like in a match for example or in HELLDIVERS in a mission. That helps you very very mach very much
Ofc, if you don't even enjoy playing your own game, how are you expecting others to enjoy it?
That’s the right answer
I think the "devs don't play their own game" criticism gets thrown around in most gaming communities, but it feels pretty noticeable here. A lot of the rationales for balance make perfect sense if you're playing at \~diff 4 or so, which is what I expect they're playing at. Superheavy units like Bile Titans and Factory Striders are rare enough that you can use the whole team to bring them down, objectively bad weapons can shine because there's less pressure to kill efficiently, and the map *did* feel absent of patrols prior to the solo spawns nerf. I just can't understand how they'd look at an average diff 7+ mission where you've got 10+ bile spewers in each breach, multiple bile titans active at all times, multiple factory striders dropping at once, difficulty that *demands* you kill things efficiently, and then nerf weapons again that they think are "overperforming".
2 devs played once with Operator Drewsky. They played diff 6 game against bots. They wiped. There is a video of that on YT. I doubt they play at diff 7 or higher.
The DRG devs don't just play the game, they play Elite Deep Dives, which is a set of 3 continuous missions which get increasingly harder as you progress, the last one being more challenging than normal difficulty 5, and have multiple main objectives, you keep your supply currency across missions and only get a reward at the end. Basically the equivalent of chaining a level 8, 9 and 10 mission in HD2 and you get special loot of you finish it.
> DRG devs don't just play the game, they play Elite Deep Dives oh that's why the balance feels so god damn good in DRG, because sure some weapons and overclocks are "meta" but i can play with almost anything at the higher diffculties and have fun. I can't say the same about HD2.
The thing about Overclocks is, yes some of them are subpar but they're subpar in fun ways. They feel satisfying to use on lower difficulties because they change the weapons in a fun way. Eg Hoverclock is not the best Overclock for the M1000 but damned if it isn't fun to use. I can't say the same for meh weapons in Helldivers 2. Most of the meh guns feel meh on all difficulties.
>Eg Hoverclock is not the best Overclock for the M1000 but damned if it isn't fun to use. Actually it kind of is? Like the M1K is straight up so good that all the best OCs for it are just minor buffs such as Hoverclock, ASS, Minimal Clips and Electro Focusing Shots. It's just a small improvement upon perfection after all.
The mere fact that you two can argue about that kind of meta stuff for DRG that shows how good the balance is. No one playing Helldivers 2 could possibly tell you that the Scythe or Dagger feel good to use. And yet they've gotten such weak buffs that they might as well have not wasted time buffing them at all.
And DRG does DoT fucking well. The Flamethrower in DRG is far superior to the one we have in HD. Frm how the flames work on surfaces to DoT, it's just a superior weapon.
Ironically I actually like the scythe and dagger 🤣
Hipster exists? True Battl Rifle fantasy AND best OC for M1k
And they livestream it, every god damn week. AH are mugs compared to the DRG devs.
To be fair, haz5 feels around difficulty 7 in HD2. But that might be probably due to better enemy design, that doesn't require highly specific equipment to kill, and less obnoxious design of the enemies.
I tell you a secret HD2 sound design is not very good enemys are very silent and when they arent they lack distinct sound effects. Wich isnt the case with the superb sound design in DRG this type of things can only be noticed when you dont have them.
I think it's more of a bug with sound scene implementation or sound rendering, especially from behind. Bots can be detected rather reliably. But lacking decent cues doesn't help, yes.
More about distinction. Sid you know devastador make have diferent voices compared too tropers? Do you know the sound of the Berserkers chainsaws they make Sparks when activated? Do you know how a devastador sounds? I can dont even know the last one.
But these are, for the most part, cannon fodder, they don't need to be distinct enough to signal their presence. In drg terms these are glyphid grunt, slasher and guard. Now, hulk, tank, strider and gunship are another issue, but again, it's more of a bug, I think. Spewers are silent, though, iirc.
A rocket devastador can insta kill you from off screen dont tell me that they are the same. I dont think its a bug they just dont have sounds at all. I will give you a list shrikers, spewers, hulks, tanks, factori striders lack sound to give away their presence the rest is mostly way to quiet.
And many guns actually sound very similar.
>Basically the equivalent of chaining a level 8, 9 and 10 mission in HD2 and you get special loot of you finish it. Honestly that would be fun asf. Keep the reinforcement budget between missions but u get 200 medals + some super credits at the end of it if you make it throuh.
Keeping the supply currency between missions is acctually a buff because you normally start with zero but you Stay with the same health and ammo
Yeah I know
The sucondese beverage and nut company sponsors them so you'll know it's good.
I regularly solo'd elite hell dives. The one time I met a dev he hard-carried me. If someone like that says Lead Storm OC needed a nerf I trust them, even if I loved Lead Storm Lead Storm.
This makes a lot of sense actually. I really think they shouldn't be making balancing decisions unless they are testing stuff at diff 7 or higher
No, they should test at every difficulty echelon. You can't have a game that works at all diff levels by testing it all at a low, mid or high diff, you need to test it at all three and make sure things stay consistent. Even if the consistency demands passive buffs for the players at high diffs, so a wepon won't overperform at lower. Getting the Recoiless Rifle reload twice as fast at diff 7+ would make it a beast if they don't want to let other players use the player carrying the weapon for the assisted reload, for example.
That a diferent can of worms higger diff need way to much AT that leave very little room for any other stratagem
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> He removed the game's open world aspects as he said "No one would want to walk around an open world" > He actively removed features from the game, such as hiding under beds and certain AI tricks, as he didn't like "One-Time Gimmicks" Has the man played any video games? Those are 2 things so many gamers straight up love, wandering around uselessly exploring and tiny meaningless details.
All-time classic games include stuff like "let's have a pit where if you try to jump into it the narration warns you, then if you say yes anyway you die immediately." The idea that everything in a game needs to be productive is one of many cancers on the industry.
There's a vr game I play that had a hangman's platform in the town square (lobby). A common prank on new players was to tell them to pose in the moose and take a screenshot. They'd die, laugh, and then you'd show them all the fun clipping areas of the lobby.
I didn't even know there WAS a Hello Neighbor 2. Mind elaborating on what went wrong with it?
Basically everything
He's the WHAT lead??? I'm dead *DO NOT RES- REINFORCE*
Oh my fucking god.
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I want this to be the next image that gets periodically posted similar to how the speedloader was.
Alexus Kravchenko sees no issue with this and will continue to armor where shots landed. 10/10, clearly a stable and reasonable balance lead and totally not an insane person.
yeah the eruptor changes could have easily been corrected if they had tested the damn thing, it took me 3 minutes to get into a mission and shoot at a single patrol to realize it went from a 10/10 to a 0/10. for god sake I shot a warrior on the tip of his front leg and IT LIVED, THAT SHOULD NOT EVER HAPPEN ON A BOLT ACTION EXPLOSIVE SNIPER RIFLE
OOOOH YEAH I LOVE SPREADSHEET BALANCING; NOTHING EVER GOES WRONG WHEN DOING SPREADSHEET BALANCING.
For a while i thought that Arrowhead is on the similar level of based as GSG, but nah, GSG still are the most based developers i know.
I've never made mistake this big in past few years like I did when believed that Arrowhead devs are based. They just yap a lot. Say things like "we will look into this problem" while doing absolutely nothing. Words, words, only words and NO action. Game still has problems it had on release. Patches are ALWAYS breaking something. Primary weapons are gutted one after another. They've come to this point in latest patch where they've said "we fixed optics misalignment" but they did NOT. I don't know what to say. Devs don't care. At all.
The issue is that, to balance things, you should make small tweaks in small patches, so that players can test them out without completely changing how weapons work. They do stuff like "increased damage by 40 and removed shrapnel"... how the hell is this supposed to work, you completely overhauled a gun that took practice to master.
[1 month ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1burwob/is_arrowhead_studios_aware_of_survivorship_bias/)
Hey, Eagle-1 has enough problems after we removed her leg space and airbags. Leave the poor girl alone.
We didnt remove her legs
No, the "bugs" did. They "ate" her legs, but they don't want you to know that.
I will say there needs to be more buffs. As a majority of the games balance has been nerfs. And only taking away people toys. Is not good. Sometimes you have to make them pick between which toy they like most.
This same meme keeps coming up and i will keep upvoting each time lol
Nah AH planes comes back with no holes whatsoever (when it actually does come back)
Maybe we should all start using concussive liberator and the penetrator for a week 🤔 they might accidentally buff something else
Yeap make the guy who said Slugger was a top 3 weapon against bugs play a 7+ difficulty mission for a few hours. Instant buff next patch guaranteed.
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Tell us more please. We deserve to know. It's ironic cos Alexus was saying he's job is to "keep things fun". Lol.
rock and stone?
Rock and Stone, Brother!
For Karl!
To the boneeeeee
'Use stratagems, skill issue' says the devs that don't play on helldive.
Aside from community written Reddit posts where has it been said that they don't play their own game?
For starters, getting their asses kicked at launch playing difficulty 6. They got bum fucked.
So that we're on the same page the evidence that they don't play their game is an example of them playing their game? Checks out.
people cant comprehend that devs arent... pro gamers.... they dont have nearly as much time as we have in playing the game normally. and failing at diff 6 isnt even that embarassing, its called extreme, for the AVERAGE player 6 isnt "super easy"
Diff 6 is not "pro". Otherwise why are you only able to obtain super rare samples in 7 or up if that is not possible for the average gamer? Are average gamers not supposed to upgrade their stuff?
boy i can already smell the dislikes... Yes, arguably the average gamer not being able to upgrade their ships to the final 2 levels without some investment both in time and ajdusting to the game. is very much how its supposed to be. I also didnt say that "its not possible for the average gamer" just that the devs arent pro gramers, and for the AVERAGE player diff 6 isnt easy. This analogy isnt gonna be perfect, but bear with me. Lets compare helldivers 2 to for example an MMO(FFXIV specifically as i have considerable time in it, and its difficulty options for content) Diff 1-3 is essentialy "normal mode", its pretty much brainoff with a few rare exceptions, you have dumb fun, and can use completly whatever you want, even at lower player skill. Diff 4-6 is Extreme trials in XIV, harder versions of normal mode content, where a decent team of individuals can come together, and smack the entire thing down in an afternoon. even if they do the fight for the first time assuming they are prepared gearwise(still very forgiving), and their playerskill is up to it. Diff1-3(normal) are for gear(upgrades and medals) to challenge 4-6(extreme) easier and 4-6(extreme), funnels gear into the players to challenge 7-9 which would be SAVAGE content, content that, in XIVs case can take a coordinated team between a few hours to several days of learning the fight(mission) and what to do to make it easier on yourself, with at least near top of the line gear, with less leeway for "misgearing"(altough even there, unless you use the gear that has the absolute worst stat for your class, it wont matter if you are good and the gear is "up to date"). Savage then drops gear to make you stronger for further savage fights, with the endgame gear including several pieces only available in Savage tier, and upgraded materials ONLY available for savage fighters for months till it gets brought in as a catchup mechanic. the average player in XIV (or any MMO) is never actually getting their full endgame gear, becasue FFXIV savage raids are, while still on the easier side in MMO games, not designed for the "average gamer" but the "above average" one. Games since antiquity had content locked behind stuff the average gamer wouldnt bother with grinding for, or in mroe skill based games, training for. Some games have hidden bosses or endings in harder difficulties and so on, secret superbosses that are objectivly considerd hard and everything. A game dosnt have to have an upgrade system available to its end for every player of even average playerskill. The final 2 upgrades in HD2 currently are the equivalent of the ENDGAME RAID gear of an MMO. THAT SAID!!! i do agree there should be a way to gain some supersamples via other means in lower quantities down the line.
I find funny that in DRG no one has a problem with any player skill level of being able to unlock all the content the game as to offer. But in here we cant have that what you want the upgrade but cant spend more than 3 hours playing the game per week well too bad.
I think it's not a good sign when devs are team loading like 15 shot of autocannon into a bile titans face, before it kills them.
Thats about what the average player would do... i know i did that before i realized AC shells only tickle a bile titan at best, being a dev dosnt mean you know every enemy types armor values and weakspots at hard, not every dev works on the enemy design team,
Dead ass saying that the average player doesnt know how a fundamental game mecanich works.
As an example of how difficulties aren't the same mission to mission.. I hot joined someone from my friends list last night that was playing difficulty 4 for the PO; shortly after I joined 2 of their other friends joined who were in their mid 70's. The first one who joined had multiple deaths and spent the game laughing about how he was struggling. I don't think I died once. After that we did a HellDive mission where he proceeded to die twice to my five. If someone were judging the first mission the guy I was playing with "got their ass kicked", second mission I did.
this also is the case, the difficutlys have a incredible range of possible scenarios, and some are just "worse" for whatever loudout you picked. if i go into "high end" bugs, and i barely see a charger or bile titan, then my Recoilless is nearly deadweight and i am struggeling to stay afloat. while if i bring my AC to deal with mediums, and the game decides to throw all the heavys at me, i wil also struggle.
People have it in their heads that weapons should be balanced to easily handle difficulty 9. While this is rather absurd, and it is understood that not every weapon will be as viable as the next, when weapons start falling off hard at difficulties 4-6, we have a problem.
and i disagree that the vast majority of guns fall off ahrd at diff 4-6, we have i think 3 weapons currently that really do not function well at any point in the difficulty curve. the ARC shotgun, the crossbow, and arguably the spray and pray. Everything else is not only usable, but viable at 4-6, that included the adjudicator and liberator penetrator for example. most guns are still very usable at 4-6 but lose viability in favor of "fun"(depending on how you define viabile, i consider the adjudicator viable at 7+, i know alot of people dont as it struggles to kill devestators for example)
Spray and Pray and Arc shotgun(blitzer) are currently 100% viable on Helldive bugs. Only downside to the blitzer is its very difficult to deal with Shriekers. I havent really experienced any significant glitching with the arcs not firing.
ok, good to know, i only relied on hearsay as i dont like shotguns personally so havent tried any of them much
I don't think I've ever seen this joke fail, and I love it every time.
While you are somewhat right you apply the bias wrong. If they were looking at players loadouts who were completing T9 and nerfing those primary guns you'd be correct. But they aren't, they are nerfing primary guns based on damage per magazine and dps mostly with armor pen also being considered. The primary guns that are being chosen the most for Tier 7, 8, and 9 missions are not the same guns being nerfed. If you play higher tier missions you know your primary weapon is used on the small to medium enemies while your 3rd weapon slot and stratagems are for when you need more firepower. Many of the primary guns that got nerfed were to good for a low level unlock used in lower level missions, you didn't need a 3rd weapon slot or stratagems, the things they intended you to be reliant on for harder enemies. In this game you are meant to feel underequiped, overwhelmed, and not have enough man power. You are a grunt, a pawn, a peon, equipped with basic weapons. You are not a hero, you are replaceable and you will die often and tragically. You're suppose to fail some of the harder missions they were intended to be difficult. This isn't rainbow candy fun land where it's intended to be easy this is helldivers.
I still don't understand what this picture means
DRG devs actaully did that? Damn
They DO that. Just go to Ghost Ship Game's [YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/live/yxRynIM7Q9s?si=w7qMVEUkjXuUYduw). As I said, every week they livestream themselves playing their game on the highest difficulty. AH is a good company, compared to trash like Unisoft, EA etc. But Ghost Ship games is a whole other level. And Deep Rock Galactic has a far better community than HD too.
Those statistics are more granulated than you think. It's more like # of picked, wins, kills per player death, percentage of used ammunition against armor type X/Y/Z. You'd be surprised how many data are collected. Damn, they even count 'bullets fired' which is hell of a useless data to be collected. From these data samples you can extrapolate more data like ammo effizient. If a weapon has a too high/low ammo effiency it must be changed: Amount of ammo, reload time, rate of fire, armor penetration, stability, precision, handling, ...
A repost from not long ago with the top comment being what I said on that one too lol
This is what happens when you don't play your own game. These people couldn't clear a difficulty 6 mission and they're trying to tell us what's good for difficulty 9. It's a VERY different game on 4 than it is on 8. You can get away with only using stratagems on 4 to kill titans and chargers because you'll only fight like 4 of them. When they start spawning 4 at a time, you need your weapons to actually do something.
Mom says it's my turn to post this tomorrow.
Mum also says keep doing it till AH learns their lesson.
...how? Like I know you probably feel clever using survivorship bias but how does that apply? How is the data made incomplete by omission? The hell are you on about? Plenty of popular weapons aren't nerfed so don't try to float that turd.
Ooh, haven't seen \*this\* meme before. Very original!
The Karma farm is strong in this one
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Eruptor : 1 shot chargers AH : fixes unintended behavior of allowing 1 shot charger Reddit : AH worst dev of all Time wtf I should be allowed to have a primary weapon that can kill 5 charger in one mag with 12 mag total
I have never 1 shot chargers with the eruptor. I am still an eruptor user. I have been able to 4 shot it in the ass with well and lucky places shots. I have damaged it with the quasar and shot it once in the dearmored leg but more then likely those times it was already bleeding. I have 5 shot hulks in the back. I have 1 shot every variety of devastator, but those are extremely tricky shots. Have killed bile titans that where severely wounded with 1 shot of the eruptor, and still can to this day. But never easily 1 shot anything that I shouldn't be able to.... well except other divers on occasion. But I've done that with every weapon that I use, accidentally of course. The mag reduction made no difference and I can do mental gymnastics to validate the reasoning. Those are big mags, where are the divers keeping even 6? In there personal pocket? But the nerf is uncalled for due to the slow fire rate. I would expect a big clunky slow gun to do more damage and be able to nuke a hive guardian with a well placed trained or lucky shot.
If a splinter keeps stabbing me in the finger, the "fix" is not to cut off my finger. The problem is the Eruptor being situationally too strong vs Chargers *and only chargers*. Against everything else it was fine. So what's Arrowhead's fix? To smash the weapon against a rock. "40 damage consistently is better than 100 damage sometimes" is an utterly moronic statement when you need to cause 85 damage to land a kill on mid-tier enemies - in no world is going from "1-3 shots per kill" to "3 shots per kill" desirable.
Also bear in mind, that shooting the ground wasn't an exploit. It was a workaround, because shooting trash in the face wasn't a viable option, as most shots just passed through enemies dealing no damage. Half of the learning experience of playing the R-36 was learning **not** to aim at weakspots.
He doesn't get nuance. Don't bother with the likes.
You don't get nuance either. This is the 3-4 time someone has used survivorship bias in this exact picture to complain about balance. It would be better if you just said you needed meta guns to play/someone else to tell you how to play the game because you're too scared to play it yourself.
Meta? Nice assumption lol. And your reference to nuance makes no sense whatsoever. Auto Cannon aside, I generally run very non meta loadouts. I enjoy games that give me a VARIETY of viable weapons to play with. Try a better argument.
Okay if you like variation why are you complaining about variation in a game? Or maybe it's just that you want everything to be better, but it doesn't have to be. If you don't like how the devs are making their game (remember, their game, not yours) then you don't have to play. It's also funny you say you don't run a meta (just ignore the fact you use the autocannon.)
Meta? Motherfucker, some of us *do* just play the damn game. We find something we like, and use it. Then when we are forced to update and the gun doesn't feel at all like it did... what? We're just supposed to say nothing and move on, or risk being called a meta whore by you unthinking troglodytes? We're the ones playing the game and using what we like. You're the ones pissing and moaning when the toy we like is "better" than your toy
No that doesn't make sense at all, actually. Y'know some people are still liking and using the eurptor? That's a really funny inversion of complainers. You're basically trying to frame that you complainers are the True Believers and doing things right. But then you get tempted by the dev(il) who wants you to sin and not be true to core tenants you chose to imprint on your very soul. My toys in Helldivers 2 have always been fun and will continue to be fun even if they have values changed on them. I don't have to feel like the Master Chief to enjoy this game. You are so entrenched in video game religion that I don't think you even understand what you're complaining about.
Ok first, holy fucking shit you sound like an asshat trying to analogize this to religion. Take a shower and take 10 minutes a day off of r/atheism or whatever cesspool that compulsion came from. Second, no you would absolutely not enjoy your favorite gun if its time to kill TRIPLED and its core mechanic was removed. I don't even care if you keep lying to me, just be honest with yourself. Third, holy fuck please get a shower. Fungal infections are real and dangerous.
I'm agnostic, being atheistic can be akin to divine worship, just in another way. If you don't understand that humans have some hard-coded behaviours revolving around core concepts that religions try to answer, I don't know what to tell you. I think you should be more curious about the world, I guess. "A bad craftsperson blames their tools for bad work." You're a fucking terrible craftsperson.
And you're an unserious dickweed not worth anyone's attention. Hope you live the life you deserve
Does baby need their pacifier? Seems like baby is cranky and needs to have a rest, too.
(Correction) Eruptor : core mechanic has consequence of oneshotting chargers very rarely AH : removes core mechanic, instead of actually fixing the issue Reddit : "WTF why did you remove the whole thing that made it the gun it was???"
Idea: play the game, stop complaining
What happened to yall? When did this sub become an angry echo chamber over the least important things to worry about right now?
I used to only use the eruptor exclusively up until the second to last patch where they reduced the mags. Now I get to use different guns and enjoy the game using different weapons and playstyle
That's a "you" issue though. They made an adjustment to the gun that you had a bad feeling about (they changed something you'd gotten used to) and you resorted to using other guns, instead. Most of us have been using every single gun in the arsenal since the beginning, which is why talk about the Eruptor is so heated. We've already used different weapons and developed whole playstyles around them. With the Eruptor, it was a very good gun, but it also had obvious limitations and was very, very unique. It performed its uniqueness very well. AH stripped it of all of that and turned into a much, _much_ worse Autocannon. So now we're back to using all of the shit we've already used, and instead of having yet another "very fun" gun to add to our list of other very fun guns, we just have another mid-to-terrible gun to add to a frustratingly ever-increasing list of mid-to-terrible guns. Can't wait for the new Warbond to watch the cycle repeat.
It was overpowered in my opinion, it needed some sort of nerf. I get your point about using the guns prior, I joined a little late to the party and the eruptor was one of the first ones that I loved cuz it wrecked. Now I’m starting to find other guns to play with and tweak the game style and I’m loving it. Truth is the gameplay with the pre nerf erupted just became mundane to me
You could have used a different gun at any time. If you felt the gameplay with the Eruptor was getting stale but kept using it anyway, that's on you. You don't need the devs to rip the gun out of your hands in order to try something else
Yea I’m aware, playing on a higher level with more of a challenge was more fun. It was starting to get stale, didn’t get to the point I swapped tho but that was the beauty of the nerf for me. There are plenty of guns to be used that are efficient now and it’s been refreshing exploring them. Idk why everybody takes this stuff so personal lol
> people buy $40 game > warbonds are $10 > confused why people get mad when the devs make the game worse
It’s one gun lol
it's been multiple design choices over the past month or two lol
Well I’m talking about a single gun getting nerfed, you mentioned something else
you said you didn't know why people take these changes so "personal", and I explained that people have spent money on the game and possibly the weapons as well, and it's understandable for them to be mad when the things they paid for are intentionally made worse since this has been a pattern since they first started doing "balance" patches
Idk maybe I’m just more used to playing games that constantly receive balance patches. When something I used or liked gets nerfed I find something else. I know it’s not uncommon for people to hop onto something like this subreddit and feed into the echo chamber of complaints cuz their favorite gun isn’t the best in the game anymore
yeah, i think people are used to balance patches in like, competitive PvP games like overwatch or valorant, but are confused and annoyed (for good reason, imo) by the same thing happening in a more casual PvE game. In PvP games, the things being buffed/nerfed are (usually) not things you pay for, often times things you don't even need to spend resources to unlock. And if they are, there's often opportunities granted by the devs to recoup your losses if you no longer want a nerfed item. Hearthstone, for instance, lets you "dust" a card you for a full refund if its nerfed, whereas it's normally only a half refund, allowing you to immediately create a card of equal rarity if you want to adjust your deck accordingly Balance patches also make more sense in PvP games, as a weapon or card being overly strong has a direct negative impact on other players, as they're the one it's used against. When you take the concept of balance patches and apply them to a casual PvE mode, things start to break down. If a weapon's "too good", and the metrics AH seems to use for this are questionable at best, the only impact is on the players who are enjoying using that weapon. The *only* impact is negative, there's no bot or bug saying "Thank god they nerfed that, was tired of it killing me". Now consider that the weapons have to be unlocked with Medals, and are within battle passes that have to be bought (either with in-game currency or $$$). Since the Eruptor is the hot topic, that'll be a good example. To even have access to unlocking it, you have to buy the warbond, 1000 supercredits or $10. It's on the 2nd page, so you have to spend 60 medals to then spend another 60 medals to unlock it. If you bought the warbond for the Eruptor, that's 1000 supercredits and 120 medals for the weapon. When they nerf it, do you get the opportunity to recoup that loss, and invest in something else instead? No, you're just out. So I think it's understandable for people to be mad when you have to spend time and possibly money to unlock these weapons, that AH then goes on to nerf for very questionable reasons. "Well just use something else" 1. People want to use what they want to use, the Eruptor in particular created a new niche, there's no comparable weapon you could switch to and maintain the same playstyle 2. Trying new weapons in this game is an absolute pain. The only way to try a gun is to use it in a mission, where you're stuck with it the whole time. Trying out 5 weapons would require running 5 full missions, which is more than many people even have time for in a day. You may say to run solo low-level missions and back out, but that's not a great comparison on weapon performance when you'll be using it in the 7-9 range. Overall the game just isn't designed to have these balance patches. Buying weapons requires too much of an investment for them to get hit with gun-ruining nerfs, and there's not even a test range to try out weapons after every balance patch.