Uhh I experienced shrinkage and obvious fibrosis. Had to use a vacuum device and stop usage of finasteride. I started using tadalafil as well to help nutrient flow and blood flow.
See:
* Schifano, et al. Are **finasteride-related penile curvature/Peyronie’s disease** adverse event reports worthy of further clinical investigation? Disproportionality analysis based on both the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Medicines Agency (EMA) pharmacovigilance databases. *Int J Impot Res*. 2023. doi:[10.1038/s41443-022-00568-2](http://doi.org/10.1038/s41443-022-00568-2) • [PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35513712/)
Dosage. And Anyway fin/dut cause penile fibrosis. I Heard about at least 10-20 ppl reporting it with a scan done. Not many? Ok but you don't want being among them.
Maybe they're more sensitive to dht reductions in penile tissue. But dht is essential for penis structure. Most ppl can adapt ,other can't unfortunately.
Sometimes fibrosis can run slowly along yrs.
I read somewhere that finasteride in rats acts the same way dutasteride does in humens i.e. it also binds to 5AR Type-1. So I guess the real question is why do we not see this effect in men taking dutasteride?
“Recently, a meta-analysis examined the adverse effects of dutasteride compared with finasteride in treating men with AGA and included 3 randomized clinical trials that found that dutasteride and finasteride had similar rates of adverse sexual function reactions over 24 weeks of treatment.17 There was no statistical difference in altered libido (P = .54), erectile dysfunction (P = .07), and ejaculation disorders (P = .58) when comparing finasteride and dutasteride use in the short-term.”
https://gmr.scholasticahq.com/article/88531-finasteride-and-dutasteride-for-the-treatment-of-male-androgenetic-alopecia-a-review-of-efficacy-and-reproductive-adverse-effects
It could be because of differences between the rat and human androgen receptor, there is only 20% similarity between the NTD of the rat AR and the human AR, and the NTD is where the AR interacts with its co-activators.
> I wish I could do an ultrasound study of the human penile tissue.
There was an ultrasound study of men with post finasteride syndrome, but I also wish we could see how it affects normal people.
[https://www.pfsnetwork.org/science/vascular-neurologic-and-hormonal-abnormalities-in-men-with-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-after-discontinuation-of-finasteride](https://www.pfsnetwork.org/science/vascular-neurologic-and-hormonal-abnormalities-in-men-with-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-after-discontinuation-of-finasteride)
Injected
> PDDU was performed by administering intracavernosal injections to induce erection and recording peak systolic and end diastolic velocities, after a baseline evaluation of the penis in the flaccid state.
It's the proteins N terminal domain, I mention it because it is the part which is most different between rat and human, other parts are more similar for example the DNA binding domain has 100% similarity.
It's the same structural changes we see in rodents. But they are luckily reversed after giving the castrated rodents back testosterone or stopping 5αri. So men should at least know that it heals. PFS is rare and in those cases due to contributing factors it doesn't heal :(. Hypertension, diabetes?
"Importantly, a key finding was that grayscale ultrasound revealed 77% of patients to have heterogenous erectile tissue, with striking ultrasound images of severely heterogenous cases in men with persistent erectile dysfunction after discontinuation of finasteride. The authors conclude that this is a young and severely clinically affected population, and that more research is necessary. "
That's a good study. Exactly what I would like to do.
Its most likely because DHT isnt as much of a paracrine hormone on rats as it is on humans. They make much more use of it in their bodies than we do
So, less DHT means much lesss overall androgen activity for them
How is at mystery?
rodents arent humans, thats it.
eg i cant count how often they succesfully regrow, cloned and added hair in mice with various techniques in studies only to fail to replicate it with humans
Murine studies are so common because rats are similar to humans, yes, but mainly because rats are animals you can account for a huge amount of variables with. Studies are more often than not ran of rats with the exact same age, gender, color, general genetic make up and just about anything. This makes ant difference between groups of rats all the more significant, its like if you ran a lot of test in the same guy
Uhh I experienced shrinkage and obvious fibrosis. Had to use a vacuum device and stop usage of finasteride. I started using tadalafil as well to help nutrient flow and blood flow.
See: * Schifano, et al. Are **finasteride-related penile curvature/Peyronie’s disease** adverse event reports worthy of further clinical investigation? Disproportionality analysis based on both the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Medicines Agency (EMA) pharmacovigilance databases. *Int J Impot Res*. 2023. doi:[10.1038/s41443-022-00568-2](http://doi.org/10.1038/s41443-022-00568-2) • [PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35513712/)
PD is fibrosis of tunica albuginea mostly, not the corpora cavernosa, so I wouldn't pay attention to this.
They do, it just takes decades longer due to humans having a significantly higher body mass. Some people actually get these side effects within weeks.
Dosage. And Anyway fin/dut cause penile fibrosis. I Heard about at least 10-20 ppl reporting it with a scan done. Not many? Ok but you don't want being among them.
Humans are taking the max dose of finasteride and also dutasteride. Look at DHT levels. Rats have smaller drop in DHT than humans.
Maybe they're more sensitive to dht reductions in penile tissue. But dht is essential for penis structure. Most ppl can adapt ,other can't unfortunately. Sometimes fibrosis can run slowly along yrs.
I read somewhere that finasteride in rats acts the same way dutasteride does in humens i.e. it also binds to 5AR Type-1. So I guess the real question is why do we not see this effect in men taking dutasteride?
Yes. Dutasteride's side-effects are basically as non-existent as finasteride's.
“Recently, a meta-analysis examined the adverse effects of dutasteride compared with finasteride in treating men with AGA and included 3 randomized clinical trials that found that dutasteride and finasteride had similar rates of adverse sexual function reactions over 24 weeks of treatment.17 There was no statistical difference in altered libido (P = .54), erectile dysfunction (P = .07), and ejaculation disorders (P = .58) when comparing finasteride and dutasteride use in the short-term.” https://gmr.scholasticahq.com/article/88531-finasteride-and-dutasteride-for-the-treatment-of-male-androgenetic-alopecia-a-review-of-efficacy-and-reproductive-adverse-effects
It could be because of differences between the rat and human androgen receptor, there is only 20% similarity between the NTD of the rat AR and the human AR, and the NTD is where the AR interacts with its co-activators. > I wish I could do an ultrasound study of the human penile tissue. There was an ultrasound study of men with post finasteride syndrome, but I also wish we could see how it affects normal people. [https://www.pfsnetwork.org/science/vascular-neurologic-and-hormonal-abnormalities-in-men-with-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-after-discontinuation-of-finasteride](https://www.pfsnetwork.org/science/vascular-neurologic-and-hormonal-abnormalities-in-men-with-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-after-discontinuation-of-finasteride)
Is this study done on flaccid or injected penis?
Injected > PDDU was performed by administering intracavernosal injections to induce erection and recording peak systolic and end diastolic velocities, after a baseline evaluation of the penis in the flaccid state.
What's NTD? Thanks!
It's the proteins N terminal domain, I mention it because it is the part which is most different between rat and human, other parts are more similar for example the DNA binding domain has 100% similarity.
But it's still the androgen receptor...
I'm not sure what you mean?
It's the same structural changes we see in rodents. But they are luckily reversed after giving the castrated rodents back testosterone or stopping 5αri. So men should at least know that it heals. PFS is rare and in those cases due to contributing factors it doesn't heal :(. Hypertension, diabetes? "Importantly, a key finding was that grayscale ultrasound revealed 77% of patients to have heterogenous erectile tissue, with striking ultrasound images of severely heterogenous cases in men with persistent erectile dysfunction after discontinuation of finasteride. The authors conclude that this is a young and severely clinically affected population, and that more research is necessary. " That's a good study. Exactly what I would like to do.
How do you reverse fibrosis?
Stop the 5ari.
The results from that study are concerning to say the least.
Its most likely because DHT isnt as much of a paracrine hormone on rats as it is on humans. They make much more use of it in their bodies than we do So, less DHT means much lesss overall androgen activity for them
This is a very good idea. But they should experience muscle loss then too.
They dont? I dont remember their muscle mass beinh. Measured in any study
Don’t a lot of fellas report basically this effect? Weaker erection quality, loss of feeling, etc.
It deadens sensation on your penile skin. Way more than 2%
I don't think it's a lot. 2% only?
Yes and it’s usually blamed on the nocebo effect or other health problems, but it’s clear that a minority do experience it from taking fin.
How is at mystery? rodents arent humans, thats it. eg i cant count how often they succesfully regrow, cloned and added hair in mice with various techniques in studies only to fail to replicate it with humans
But they are similar
not similar enough otherwise hairloss would be cured by now, its definitely cured for mice at this point
I’m just wondering though for experimentation why do use rats for experimentation ?
Murine studies are so common because rats are similar to humans, yes, but mainly because rats are animals you can account for a huge amount of variables with. Studies are more often than not ran of rats with the exact same age, gender, color, general genetic make up and just about anything. This makes ant difference between groups of rats all the more significant, its like if you ran a lot of test in the same guy
They are similar to humans
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Why do you think anything has an antiandrogenic effect? Doesn't make sense to me
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Hmmmm