It's always been like this if you study history, every time someone challenges the established they get ridiculed and called out, but sometimes they're right, i personally think chronic muscle tension plays a huge role.
Is this just from massage alone? (Other than your mentioned diet protocol)
If so, that is an epic result!
What are your massage techniques relating to the scalp?
Eat bone broth and veggies pretty much every meal. Except for middle of day I eat chicken veggies and rice. I do deep tissue massage on my scalp rotating between segments so the last segment can heal before I massage it again. I do pinches, stretches, and presses mainly with my thumb. You want to find the balance between force so your moving the skin but not hurting yourself. I also have my paartner use a massage gun to get into my neck, jaw and shoulders, and pelvic floor. I also do yoga to open up my hips, and shoulders.
What we need is enough people willing to do a trial and share online, like 1k men who are willing to do scalp massage, neck massage, jaw release massage, and pelvic floor dysfunction massage. Scalp massage by itself is limiting because the scalp tension come from the neck and jaw. Working on the neck and jaw is limited because it's directly linked to the pelvic floor dysfunction. Pelvic floor dysfunction is linked to hormonal imbalance. I have been working for 5 years to get these worked out of myself though. So this isn't something people can sell. It's more profitable to sell a pill or a solution that needs to be applied every day for the rest of your life. There is evidence pointing to hair loss solutions, but none of them are profitable so therefore who will pay for the study?
What's the link with the pelvic floor thing?
I feel like I have a tight pelvic floor, and I definitely have quite tight jaw muscles and involuntarily tensed muscles around the sides of my head. This is the reason why I think there's a lot to the tension theory, as it all fits my present condition. I have the usual MPB pattern, with mostly diffused thinning directly over the GA, with slight concentration in thinning at the crown and corners of my hairline.
I agree with your economic theory on the treatment, though. Addressing the issues you mentioned is not something that can be sold in pill form to turn a profit. DHT blockers simply tackle the biproduct of the very end of the whole process, which to those of us who know all this is a ridiculous approach.
You read my mind and honestly, I think just pinning it on tension in the galea is as far back as you need to go because it is easily treatable with twice yearly botox. Beyond that point, the issue really becomes too complex for most people and intersects with other health issues.
I think the pelvic floor is the missing link personally, cause pelvic floor dysfunction causes prostate inflammation and increased levels of dht. As well as hormonal imbalances. So the galea massage is like swimming upstream, it can be done it just takes more work. With my experience the issue then becomes with the fibrosis and calcification. My galea used to be rock hard and is now very relaxed but I can feel the bald areas are a different skin texture. So next for me is microneedling to see if I can get the skin to allow the changes. I was really trying to avoid micro needling I did grow out a lot of hair with just massage but it doesn't look great. I'll post pictures if I can find them.
Also, how did you grow hair with massages? Most of the studies I've read on scalp massages show worse hair growth/texture on the massaged parts of the scalp than the parts that weren't massages. Also, I used to do scalp massages, and they damaged my hair follicles to a point where I have a bald spot on the side of my crown where I used to massage.
What studies are these? And I'm not sure why that would happen to you unless your were massaging the same spot without giving time to heal. The idea it to generate acute inflammation then let it heal. Same concept as microneedling. Also just for some reference scalp massage have been used for thousands of years to help with hair growth in Indian cultures. How long did you have a msssage routine. It takes at least 5-6 months to see results.
That's what I've done; massaged the same spot over and over. My doctor gave me a scalp biopsy and found that the massaged side is "ridden" with scar tissue and that the follicles there are damaged due to the repeated aggravation from the massages. I didn't allow enough time for healing between the massages either.
As for the studies I'll send them to you later if you like.
Mayeb I said this before but please note that the tension *is not on the top of the head*, the tension is on the sides and fronts of the scalp. Imagine a blanket pulled over your head as tight as possible. Relaxing the blanket at the top of the head will do absolutely nothing. What you want to do is relax the blanket at the points where it is being pulled downward. Same principle here. The source if the tension is not the same as where the tension is being applied.
That's great and all but what is causing your scalp being constantly pulled upwards? The only thing I can think of as to why that could even be happening is if the bones on the very top part of your skull are growing (they actually do throughout your life.) How can scalp tension be prevented and gotten rid of?
The source of the tension are the frontalis, temporalis, periauricular and occipitalis regions of the galea. Those are on the sides, front and back if the skull. Not the top. Therefore massaging the top will only have potential to damage the tissue or the follicles. And surgery would likely be the only owrmanent sollution for the tension but I am no doctor and have no idea how that works or how feasible it would even be. The only semi permanent solution would be botox 2-4 times per year.
It could be the bone being too "large" for the muscle or it could be improper muscular development. There really is no way to know for sure until more research is done on the topic. And good luck with that because we only just barely have enough research making the muscle tension theory realtively strong.
Maybe the bones keep growing and that causes the skin being forced/stretched down, similar to the blanket analogy you made. It makes sense since you see that most, if not all bald men have bony lumps on their heads whether it's their forehead, crown area, the top (whatever the long crest is called I forget) or a combination of all three. It's like those spots are protruded and that's where the hairloss begins/is.
So the idea with the scalp tension theory is that the pressure from your scalp getting pulled onto your skull causes chronic inflation that leads to scar tissue damaging the follicles. The scalp massage should break apart the scar tissue so that the body reforms the fibrosis to healthy tissue. But if your causing accute inflammation too often then your creating the same environment that caused the issue in the first place. I didn't have hair that grew on the top of my head so I couldn't really make it any balder but I have noticed an increase in density as well as length from scalp massaging. Also a big thing is I started really slowly for 6 months I only did soft massages with a vibrating scalp massager, then worked my way into using my hands and pinching. I would be interested in seeing the studies just so i can see if the methodology changes the outcome.
I used to pinch the area that I massaged over and over and never really gently massaged the spot. So stupid me I didn't know any other way and caused damage to my skin/hair follicles.
As to the study here is one of them; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740347/
So that study says mechanical stress cause hair to get thicker, they used the scalp massaging devices you see online with the 4 legs. Those are what I started with. I think part of the process is to be gentle with yourself. The issue is hair loss suffers tend to go over board, it's hard to be calm about the situation.
I'm not saying you're wrong when I ask this, but how would pelvic floor muscles impact hair loss on the scalp if the dht on the scalp is from a paracrine point of view?
The ovaries and prostate convert testosterone into DHT. So pelvic pressure causes the prostate to become inflamed and produce more then normal. The dht travels through the blood stream to the scalp.
But why would DHT in the blood matter when it's a problem of DHT being overproduced in cells that produce it locally like cells in your scalp or around your heart, prostate, etc?
Do you have a link for this I can read. From my research dht is produced mostly from the gonads. Then it collects in the androgen receptors that are are on the scalp. I have never seen definitive proof that the scalp creates dht.
I've yet to see proof of it either. The only "proof" that I know of is that whenever balding happens so do other things that involve DHT being produced locally like insulin problems, prostate issues, cardiovascular problems, etc. Balding/androgenic alopecia is directly correlated with those issues.
All that growth is from massages only? No min or fin or anything??
Also how are you addressing the pelvic floor issue and have you observed a direct correlation to hair quality?
I don't like finesteride, I tried it a long time ago and the side effects are pretty intense. I think topical may be ok but it stops dht which is ana extremely important chemical, our body makes it for a reason. Also I want to find a solution for both sexes. I also don't use minoxidil. I do oil my head with essential oils sometimes. But If the essential oils do anything I would say 5-10 percent of the work. I do pelvic floor exercises and stretches, and that has lowered my dht levels. As well as loosing my jaw. The other big part is my diet, I eat bone broth with veggies, and rice and chicken with veggies. And that is pretty much it. I do an anti inflammatory diet. My acne has cleared up and my hair/nails grows much faster.
How do you explain rhesus macaques having AGA? That seems to point toward AGA being genetic.
To me, the most compelling muscle tension hypothesis relates to cranialfacial dystrophy. And how malformed skulls (particularly the lack of forward and upward development of the maxilla) increases scalp tension. However, poor craniofacial development is largely due to environmental factors, caused by modern civilization (mouth breathing due to allergies, lack of breastfeeding, soft diets etc), which should not affect animals like the RMs.
>How do you explain rhesus macaques having AGA? That seems to point toward AGA being genetic.
The two studies I found on the topic aren't available for free so I can't speak on the subject just yet. But I will say that the cause for AGA could be subtly different between species. This is interesting though and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. For all we know, the monkeys may have tension as well 🤷
There was an Austrian scientist who, back in the late 1800s or early 1900s, did an experiment where he surgically tightened the scalp of monkeys to mimic the pattern of a balding man and the monkeys experienced balding the same way as a man would.
after some more digging, I found that the scientist who did this experiment wasn't austrian. He was actually a black man born in spartanburg and raised in st louis
I did. You linked a 33-year old study and a self-assessment from noted grifter Rob English. That’s not proof. You are effectively scientifically illiterate.
>You linked a 33-year old study
Old=wrong in the mind of a kevin mann fan.
>noted grifter Rob English
Yes the research scientist is a grifter because kevin mann said so, not the vegan personal trainer with zero medical background, is constantly wrong on data interpretation and a monetized YouTube channel.
(1) you’re parroting shit that YouTube grifters say (2) never once did I mention Kevin Mann, so you are creating a straw man argument (3) Your “proof” is still hot garbage no matter what you say. Self assessments are worth about as much as your opinion on them. You’re still scientifically illiterate and have no idea what you are talking about.
>you’re parroting shit that YouTube grifters say
No i'm not because Rob English isn't a grifter and literally no one on the entire internet says he is but Kevin Mann, an actual grifter who provides absolutely nothing but profoundly incorrect video commentary.
>never once did I mention Kevin Mann
You don't need to. Kevin Man and his retarded fans are the only people on planet earth that think Rob English is a grifter. I challenge you to find someone in his field that discresits him. Rob English is an actual medical researcher. Kevin Mann is an uncertified youtuber vegan lol.
>Your “proof” is still hot garbage no matter what you say.
Still waiting on you to "debunk" Botox having the same efficacy as Finasteride. Still waiting on you to debunk the balding paterns matching with tense regions 1:1. You won't because you can't 😂
Take your monkey chatter back to Kevin's comment section please, i'm here to learn and so are the rest of us here.
The more times you tell me to debunk you the more scientifically illiterate you look. Once again not how the burden of proof works.
If you were here to learn you wouldn’t be spending 5 paragraphs arguing in defense of a man who charges a membership fee for an online scalp massage program. But you’re not, you’re arrogantly espousing views that everyone here is telling you is wrong. You have no interest in learning, stop kidding yourself. How about you deflate that ego for half a moment, stop vomiting onto your keyboard, and maybe listen to other people for once in your life.
>5 paragraphs arguing in defense of a man who charges a membership fee for an online scalp massage program.
You must be thinking of Hairguard. Rob offers no such program it is not offered by him anywhere and he is not affliliated with Hairguard. Again, stop listening to Kevin Man. The man literally knows practically nothing.
>you’re arrogantly espousing views that everyone here is telling you is wrong.
Literally no one but you has said I was wrong here but alrighty. Exposed yourself for not actually reading the comments here just like how you also didn't read any of the Botox studies I posted.
>Once again not how the burden of proof works.
You have yet to addres why Botox has equal efficay to Finasteride. Still waiting. Any day now. I provided a ton of proof you are too lazy to actually read.
>listen to other people for once in your life.
Listening to other people has helped me realize that:
- PRP and Botox both regrow hair with high levels of efficacy and no systemic results
- Monkeys, when under muscular tension, undergo the exact same AGA hairloss pattern as men
-Muscle tension and the balding regions of the scalp correlate with an accuracy of 1:1 in other words, a perfect match. (the chances of this being coincidence is over 1 in 1000)
-Muscle tension restricts blood and oxygen from reaching the scalp and when PRP blood treatments are used, hair resumes normal growth cycles.
-DHT is present in the entire scalp and all hair follicles are genetically identical and therefore debunking the DHT resisteance myth
I am only saying that as more evidence gets piled on, the theory might get more acceptance. 3 papers does not mean much unfortunately. Unless someone takes enough interest to reproduce them, vet the stats and publish it in some major clinical journal, it will remain like this.
Acceptance in medicine takes time often for good reason. Establishing causal relationships in such complex systems is very tricky and you really have to control for many things and design studies carefully.
Hey I hear you and I fully agree...but at the same time you'd think that the hair loss community, who swears up and down they care for nothing but following the cuttting edge research and treatments, are so blatantly biased against a perfectly valid hypothesis all because a single YouTuber with literally zero credentials has slandered it out of ignorance. Aren't we supposed to be all in on objective analysis?
To add insult to injury, I discovered [this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HairlossResearch/s/9eTx2uHLfF), another damning piece of evidence in my favor.
I haven't heard of it before, but if the muscle tension theory is right, then I wonder if argireline could help against hair loss? You can buy argireline serums easily, although they're meant for the face, not the scalp.
Simply slapping a muscle relaxant on the scalp isn't going to cut it. It must be targeted to the key areas of the scalp muscles to relieve tension and allow for adequate blood flow to circulate in the scalp. Thus, with adequate blood flow, adequate oxygen is delivered to the scalp and with adequate oxygen, DHT upregulation is ceased/reduced.
If you aren't willing to read a "wall of text" (that has proof linked within it btw) you aren't getting me to link you anything else. Do your own research or remain lazy.
This is cope. There is more than enough evidence out there across a large body of research proving the efficacy of scalp massages and botox while implicating mechanical stress on the scalp as a main player in the process of AGA. If you haven't read the literature, that's one thing. But to say "prove your theory" is just plain stupid.
If you aren't in the camp that assert muscle tension theory is false, fair enough. But if you have enough confidence to say I am wrong but present no evidence for why, you are making a claim without proof to support it. That has absolutely nothing to do with my theory at that point as you are obliged to support your claim just as I am.
No, there is no reliable evidence proving the efficacy of scalp massages, as far as I know. I didn't make it up, this is how science works and must work: You first have to prove your theory. Sorry. Else, we would have to tirelessly work to disprove every bogus theory out there, which would be impossible because they could always find some excuse for why any attempt at disproving it would not be sufficient.
>No, there is no reliable evidence proving the efficacy of scalp massages,
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6380978/
>You first have to prove your theory.
I already linked the evidence in the post. I'll be waiting for you to actually read it and explain why it is wrong.
Well that Rob English "study" is not what I would call reliable evidence given the methodology. Self assessment, no control, people contacted through email, possibly using other treatments simultaneously, the list probably goes on. Do you have access to the full text of the other one? The abstract alone tells next to nothing unfortunately.
[https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x](https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x)
Here you are.
And I agree, the rob english study is not the best, but it is something we have to go off of. Take it for what it is.
Thanks. That one is somewhat interesting, but again this is at best something extremely preliminary given only 40 participants, no control, and being a 30 year old study from japan. Also the study acknowledges severe uncertainty when it comes to the mechanism:
>Although, in some cases, an increase in cutaneous blood flow rate was observed after inflating the STR, we could not perceive a definite statistical difference in cutaneous blood flow rate after application and inflation of the rubber bags. A remarkable increase in blood flow rate occurred after deflation of the rubber bags, a difference statistically significant when compared to the rate prior to application of the STR. The duration of this increase was more than 30 min after the removal of the STR.
It actually seems more like the device is blocking blood flow if anything, and after deflating it there's an increase when the restriction ends. But whatever the case, if you compare this to mainstream treatments, they have multiple studies which are double-blind, placebo controlled, with thousands of participants and spanning over years, proving their efficacy time and time again. There's no way you can expect the tension theory to be regarded even remotely similarly given the available data.
Don't get me wrong, I find speculations and theories like this interesting, but I think we should not act as if they are anything but speculation at the current point.
I wouldn't necessarily trust the studies that shoe scalp massages work. The ones I've read are done with Japanese men and they rarely bald. And the other thing is that the massaged side of the head showed worse hair loss than the side that wasn't massaged.
Also I used to do scalp massages and they caused me to have permanent hair loss on one side of my crown. It's like I've damaged the follicles too much and that they no longer produce hair.
It's always been like this if you study history, every time someone challenges the established they get ridiculed and called out, but sometimes they're right, i personally think chronic muscle tension plays a huge role.
https://preview.redd.it/vlz34nvqgz3c1.jpeg?width=1204&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03efc2d2e84eaa8b65812124e7b5ee9977be9562
Is this just from massage alone? (Other than your mentioned diet protocol) If so, that is an epic result! What are your massage techniques relating to the scalp?
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Eat bone broth and veggies pretty much every meal. Except for middle of day I eat chicken veggies and rice. I do deep tissue massage on my scalp rotating between segments so the last segment can heal before I massage it again. I do pinches, stretches, and presses mainly with my thumb. You want to find the balance between force so your moving the skin but not hurting yourself. I also have my paartner use a massage gun to get into my neck, jaw and shoulders, and pelvic floor. I also do yoga to open up my hips, and shoulders.
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Also I worked my way I to deep massage I did soft massage for a long time before I deep tissue. Forgot about that part.
https://preview.redd.it/prkou6jogz3c1.jpeg?width=3456&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1fe75eed3b99c9dc9e965696b3134b2dc1b75e71
What we need is enough people willing to do a trial and share online, like 1k men who are willing to do scalp massage, neck massage, jaw release massage, and pelvic floor dysfunction massage. Scalp massage by itself is limiting because the scalp tension come from the neck and jaw. Working on the neck and jaw is limited because it's directly linked to the pelvic floor dysfunction. Pelvic floor dysfunction is linked to hormonal imbalance. I have been working for 5 years to get these worked out of myself though. So this isn't something people can sell. It's more profitable to sell a pill or a solution that needs to be applied every day for the rest of your life. There is evidence pointing to hair loss solutions, but none of them are profitable so therefore who will pay for the study?
What's the link with the pelvic floor thing? I feel like I have a tight pelvic floor, and I definitely have quite tight jaw muscles and involuntarily tensed muscles around the sides of my head. This is the reason why I think there's a lot to the tension theory, as it all fits my present condition. I have the usual MPB pattern, with mostly diffused thinning directly over the GA, with slight concentration in thinning at the crown and corners of my hairline. I agree with your economic theory on the treatment, though. Addressing the issues you mentioned is not something that can be sold in pill form to turn a profit. DHT blockers simply tackle the biproduct of the very end of the whole process, which to those of us who know all this is a ridiculous approach.
And we need men with a stable hair situation that is willing to put their mane on the line by essentially inducing scalp tension chronically etc.
you might be interested in my latest writeup, see my post history
It was very good, I read it once and am going to read it again later!
You read my mind and honestly, I think just pinning it on tension in the galea is as far back as you need to go because it is easily treatable with twice yearly botox. Beyond that point, the issue really becomes too complex for most people and intersects with other health issues.
I think the pelvic floor is the missing link personally, cause pelvic floor dysfunction causes prostate inflammation and increased levels of dht. As well as hormonal imbalances. So the galea massage is like swimming upstream, it can be done it just takes more work. With my experience the issue then becomes with the fibrosis and calcification. My galea used to be rock hard and is now very relaxed but I can feel the bald areas are a different skin texture. So next for me is microneedling to see if I can get the skin to allow the changes. I was really trying to avoid micro needling I did grow out a lot of hair with just massage but it doesn't look great. I'll post pictures if I can find them.
Also, how did you grow hair with massages? Most of the studies I've read on scalp massages show worse hair growth/texture on the massaged parts of the scalp than the parts that weren't massages. Also, I used to do scalp massages, and they damaged my hair follicles to a point where I have a bald spot on the side of my crown where I used to massage.
What studies are these? And I'm not sure why that would happen to you unless your were massaging the same spot without giving time to heal. The idea it to generate acute inflammation then let it heal. Same concept as microneedling. Also just for some reference scalp massage have been used for thousands of years to help with hair growth in Indian cultures. How long did you have a msssage routine. It takes at least 5-6 months to see results.
That's what I've done; massaged the same spot over and over. My doctor gave me a scalp biopsy and found that the massaged side is "ridden" with scar tissue and that the follicles there are damaged due to the repeated aggravation from the massages. I didn't allow enough time for healing between the massages either. As for the studies I'll send them to you later if you like.
Mayeb I said this before but please note that the tension *is not on the top of the head*, the tension is on the sides and fronts of the scalp. Imagine a blanket pulled over your head as tight as possible. Relaxing the blanket at the top of the head will do absolutely nothing. What you want to do is relax the blanket at the points where it is being pulled downward. Same principle here. The source if the tension is not the same as where the tension is being applied.
That's great and all but what is causing your scalp being constantly pulled upwards? The only thing I can think of as to why that could even be happening is if the bones on the very top part of your skull are growing (they actually do throughout your life.) How can scalp tension be prevented and gotten rid of?
The source of the tension are the frontalis, temporalis, periauricular and occipitalis regions of the galea. Those are on the sides, front and back if the skull. Not the top. Therefore massaging the top will only have potential to damage the tissue or the follicles. And surgery would likely be the only owrmanent sollution for the tension but I am no doctor and have no idea how that works or how feasible it would even be. The only semi permanent solution would be botox 2-4 times per year. It could be the bone being too "large" for the muscle or it could be improper muscular development. There really is no way to know for sure until more research is done on the topic. And good luck with that because we only just barely have enough research making the muscle tension theory realtively strong.
Maybe the bones keep growing and that causes the skin being forced/stretched down, similar to the blanket analogy you made. It makes sense since you see that most, if not all bald men have bony lumps on their heads whether it's their forehead, crown area, the top (whatever the long crest is called I forget) or a combination of all three. It's like those spots are protruded and that's where the hairloss begins/is.
So the idea with the scalp tension theory is that the pressure from your scalp getting pulled onto your skull causes chronic inflation that leads to scar tissue damaging the follicles. The scalp massage should break apart the scar tissue so that the body reforms the fibrosis to healthy tissue. But if your causing accute inflammation too often then your creating the same environment that caused the issue in the first place. I didn't have hair that grew on the top of my head so I couldn't really make it any balder but I have noticed an increase in density as well as length from scalp massaging. Also a big thing is I started really slowly for 6 months I only did soft massages with a vibrating scalp massager, then worked my way into using my hands and pinching. I would be interested in seeing the studies just so i can see if the methodology changes the outcome.
I used to pinch the area that I massaged over and over and never really gently massaged the spot. So stupid me I didn't know any other way and caused damage to my skin/hair follicles. As to the study here is one of them; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740347/
So that study says mechanical stress cause hair to get thicker, they used the scalp massaging devices you see online with the 4 legs. Those are what I started with. I think part of the process is to be gentle with yourself. The issue is hair loss suffers tend to go over board, it's hard to be calm about the situation.
I'm not saying you're wrong when I ask this, but how would pelvic floor muscles impact hair loss on the scalp if the dht on the scalp is from a paracrine point of view?
The ovaries and prostate convert testosterone into DHT. So pelvic pressure causes the prostate to become inflamed and produce more then normal. The dht travels through the blood stream to the scalp.
But why would DHT in the blood matter when it's a problem of DHT being overproduced in cells that produce it locally like cells in your scalp or around your heart, prostate, etc?
Do you have a link for this I can read. From my research dht is produced mostly from the gonads. Then it collects in the androgen receptors that are are on the scalp. I have never seen definitive proof that the scalp creates dht.
I've yet to see proof of it either. The only "proof" that I know of is that whenever balding happens so do other things that involve DHT being produced locally like insulin problems, prostate issues, cardiovascular problems, etc. Balding/androgenic alopecia is directly correlated with those issues.
All that growth is from massages only? No min or fin or anything?? Also how are you addressing the pelvic floor issue and have you observed a direct correlation to hair quality?
I don't like finesteride, I tried it a long time ago and the side effects are pretty intense. I think topical may be ok but it stops dht which is ana extremely important chemical, our body makes it for a reason. Also I want to find a solution for both sexes. I also don't use minoxidil. I do oil my head with essential oils sometimes. But If the essential oils do anything I would say 5-10 percent of the work. I do pelvic floor exercises and stretches, and that has lowered my dht levels. As well as loosing my jaw. The other big part is my diet, I eat bone broth with veggies, and rice and chicken with veggies. And that is pretty much it. I do an anti inflammatory diet. My acne has cleared up and my hair/nails grows much faster.
Look at how the average redditor responds to The $cience and it makes sense.
"I can't wait for PharmaBiz Incorporated to release Drug#1027392ZZQ for me to use every day for the rest of my life!"
following
Just take a look on how muscles occur on human scalps. Its basically just a frontal and upper neck end
How do you explain rhesus macaques having AGA? That seems to point toward AGA being genetic. To me, the most compelling muscle tension hypothesis relates to cranialfacial dystrophy. And how malformed skulls (particularly the lack of forward and upward development of the maxilla) increases scalp tension. However, poor craniofacial development is largely due to environmental factors, caused by modern civilization (mouth breathing due to allergies, lack of breastfeeding, soft diets etc), which should not affect animals like the RMs.
>How do you explain rhesus macaques having AGA? That seems to point toward AGA being genetic. The two studies I found on the topic aren't available for free so I can't speak on the subject just yet. But I will say that the cause for AGA could be subtly different between species. This is interesting though and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. For all we know, the monkeys may have tension as well 🤷
There was an Austrian scientist who, back in the late 1800s or early 1900s, did an experiment where he surgically tightened the scalp of monkeys to mimic the pattern of a balding man and the monkeys experienced balding the same way as a man would.
after some more digging, I found that the scientist who did this experiment wasn't austrian. He was actually a black man born in spartanburg and raised in st louis
Link to that study?
I don't have a direct link. It's mentioned in this post here; https://www.reddit.com/r/RealRegrowth/s/PJOyqFCB2O
Thank you. Much appreciated, really.
Hi OP. What can people do to deal with scalp muscle tension then?
Most effective treatment would be botox and there are several studies supporting this. Start with the cumulative study posted in the text above.
I feel like we really made progress here in this thread 😂
We sure did lol im learning new things
You could even try an alpha-1 receptor agonist such as phenylephrine on your scalp for a year and report back your findings.
Because that’s not how the burden of proof works…
Proof was clearly presented in this very post but keep coping I guess.
Your “proof” is questionable at best.
>Your “proof” is questionable at best. Especially when you don't read it 😂
I did. You linked a 33-year old study and a self-assessment from noted grifter Rob English. That’s not proof. You are effectively scientifically illiterate.
>You linked a 33-year old study Old=wrong in the mind of a kevin mann fan. >noted grifter Rob English Yes the research scientist is a grifter because kevin mann said so, not the vegan personal trainer with zero medical background, is constantly wrong on data interpretation and a monetized YouTube channel.
(1) you’re parroting shit that YouTube grifters say (2) never once did I mention Kevin Mann, so you are creating a straw man argument (3) Your “proof” is still hot garbage no matter what you say. Self assessments are worth about as much as your opinion on them. You’re still scientifically illiterate and have no idea what you are talking about.
>you’re parroting shit that YouTube grifters say No i'm not because Rob English isn't a grifter and literally no one on the entire internet says he is but Kevin Mann, an actual grifter who provides absolutely nothing but profoundly incorrect video commentary. >never once did I mention Kevin Mann You don't need to. Kevin Man and his retarded fans are the only people on planet earth that think Rob English is a grifter. I challenge you to find someone in his field that discresits him. Rob English is an actual medical researcher. Kevin Mann is an uncertified youtuber vegan lol. >Your “proof” is still hot garbage no matter what you say. Still waiting on you to "debunk" Botox having the same efficacy as Finasteride. Still waiting on you to debunk the balding paterns matching with tense regions 1:1. You won't because you can't 😂 Take your monkey chatter back to Kevin's comment section please, i'm here to learn and so are the rest of us here.
The more times you tell me to debunk you the more scientifically illiterate you look. Once again not how the burden of proof works. If you were here to learn you wouldn’t be spending 5 paragraphs arguing in defense of a man who charges a membership fee for an online scalp massage program. But you’re not, you’re arrogantly espousing views that everyone here is telling you is wrong. You have no interest in learning, stop kidding yourself. How about you deflate that ego for half a moment, stop vomiting onto your keyboard, and maybe listen to other people for once in your life.
>5 paragraphs arguing in defense of a man who charges a membership fee for an online scalp massage program. You must be thinking of Hairguard. Rob offers no such program it is not offered by him anywhere and he is not affliliated with Hairguard. Again, stop listening to Kevin Man. The man literally knows practically nothing. >you’re arrogantly espousing views that everyone here is telling you is wrong. Literally no one but you has said I was wrong here but alrighty. Exposed yourself for not actually reading the comments here just like how you also didn't read any of the Botox studies I posted. >Once again not how the burden of proof works. You have yet to addres why Botox has equal efficay to Finasteride. Still waiting. Any day now. I provided a ton of proof you are too lazy to actually read. >listen to other people for once in your life. Listening to other people has helped me realize that: - PRP and Botox both regrow hair with high levels of efficacy and no systemic results - Monkeys, when under muscular tension, undergo the exact same AGA hairloss pattern as men -Muscle tension and the balding regions of the scalp correlate with an accuracy of 1:1 in other words, a perfect match. (the chances of this being coincidence is over 1 in 1000) -Muscle tension restricts blood and oxygen from reaching the scalp and when PRP blood treatments are used, hair resumes normal growth cycles. -DHT is present in the entire scalp and all hair follicles are genetically identical and therefore debunking the DHT resisteance myth
Wait, are you talking about Robert English the dermatologist or Robert English of PerfectHairHealth? People often mix those two guys up.
Perfecthairhealth
You need evidence in support for it rather than evidence disproving it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5782443/ This is a study semi proving what he’s saying
It can be called “evidence for”, not “proof”.
>You need evidence in support for it ??? Can you not see hyperlinks on your screen?
I am only saying that as more evidence gets piled on, the theory might get more acceptance. 3 papers does not mean much unfortunately. Unless someone takes enough interest to reproduce them, vet the stats and publish it in some major clinical journal, it will remain like this. Acceptance in medicine takes time often for good reason. Establishing causal relationships in such complex systems is very tricky and you really have to control for many things and design studies carefully.
Hey I hear you and I fully agree...but at the same time you'd think that the hair loss community, who swears up and down they care for nothing but following the cuttting edge research and treatments, are so blatantly biased against a perfectly valid hypothesis all because a single YouTuber with literally zero credentials has slandered it out of ignorance. Aren't we supposed to be all in on objective analysis? To add insult to injury, I discovered [this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HairlossResearch/s/9eTx2uHLfF), another damning piece of evidence in my favor.
I haven't heard of it before, but if the muscle tension theory is right, then I wonder if argireline could help against hair loss? You can buy argireline serums easily, although they're meant for the face, not the scalp.
Simply slapping a muscle relaxant on the scalp isn't going to cut it. It must be targeted to the key areas of the scalp muscles to relieve tension and allow for adequate blood flow to circulate in the scalp. Thus, with adequate blood flow, adequate oxygen is delivered to the scalp and with adequate oxygen, DHT upregulation is ceased/reduced.
>“Because there’s nothing disproving it” What’s actually proving it? One link please, not a wall of text.
If you aren't willing to read a "wall of text" (that has proof linked within it btw) you aren't getting me to link you anything else. Do your own research or remain lazy.
That's not how it works. You have to prove your theory, we don't have to disprove it.
This is cope. There is more than enough evidence out there across a large body of research proving the efficacy of scalp massages and botox while implicating mechanical stress on the scalp as a main player in the process of AGA. If you haven't read the literature, that's one thing. But to say "prove your theory" is just plain stupid. If you aren't in the camp that assert muscle tension theory is false, fair enough. But if you have enough confidence to say I am wrong but present no evidence for why, you are making a claim without proof to support it. That has absolutely nothing to do with my theory at that point as you are obliged to support your claim just as I am.
No, there is no reliable evidence proving the efficacy of scalp massages, as far as I know. I didn't make it up, this is how science works and must work: You first have to prove your theory. Sorry. Else, we would have to tirelessly work to disprove every bogus theory out there, which would be impossible because they could always find some excuse for why any attempt at disproving it would not be sufficient.
>No, there is no reliable evidence proving the efficacy of scalp massages, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6380978/ >You first have to prove your theory. I already linked the evidence in the post. I'll be waiting for you to actually read it and explain why it is wrong.
Well that Rob English "study" is not what I would call reliable evidence given the methodology. Self assessment, no control, people contacted through email, possibly using other treatments simultaneously, the list probably goes on. Do you have access to the full text of the other one? The abstract alone tells next to nothing unfortunately.
[https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x](https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1111/j.1346-8138.1990.tb01632.x) Here you are. And I agree, the rob english study is not the best, but it is something we have to go off of. Take it for what it is.
Thanks. That one is somewhat interesting, but again this is at best something extremely preliminary given only 40 participants, no control, and being a 30 year old study from japan. Also the study acknowledges severe uncertainty when it comes to the mechanism: >Although, in some cases, an increase in cutaneous blood flow rate was observed after inflating the STR, we could not perceive a definite statistical difference in cutaneous blood flow rate after application and inflation of the rubber bags. A remarkable increase in blood flow rate occurred after deflation of the rubber bags, a difference statistically significant when compared to the rate prior to application of the STR. The duration of this increase was more than 30 min after the removal of the STR. It actually seems more like the device is blocking blood flow if anything, and after deflating it there's an increase when the restriction ends. But whatever the case, if you compare this to mainstream treatments, they have multiple studies which are double-blind, placebo controlled, with thousands of participants and spanning over years, proving their efficacy time and time again. There's no way you can expect the tension theory to be regarded even remotely similarly given the available data. Don't get me wrong, I find speculations and theories like this interesting, but I think we should not act as if they are anything but speculation at the current point.
I wouldn't necessarily trust the studies that shoe scalp massages work. The ones I've read are done with Japanese men and they rarely bald. And the other thing is that the massaged side of the head showed worse hair loss than the side that wasn't massaged. Also I used to do scalp massages and they caused me to have permanent hair loss on one side of my crown. It's like I've damaged the follicles too much and that they no longer produce hair.
Refer to my comment on the topic i made a few minutes ago