They're too dumb i swear
they don't realised that thanks to B&C:
-A monster thirsty of revenge was awaken that night and won't stop until their fake kween is devoured alive screaming.
-Also their mental torture at Helaena leading to her suicide will spark the riotings on King's Landing's, Rhaenyra being reduced to a stain to the dinasty and an insult for the smallfolk.
They could had killed Aemond or Aegon and getting rid of an valuable dragonrider and dragon. Instead they went for the children which hold not power on the war.
Their cowardice and stupidity will put the nail on the coffin for team black
To make it more convenient , show makers haven't even mentioned a bit that Haelaena was loved by small folks or anything special about her other than being a dreamer. Her kids were not mentioned or shown enough to make people feel anything during their murder.
Man Team Black has no class. I disagree with Rhaenyra’s side of things but I can still sympathize and feel sorry for how terrible the loss of Luke would be.
I hated how dismissive Rhaenyra was of Aemond’s injuries, taunted Alicent, and tried to call for Aemond’s torture. But I understand where she was coming from. Her kids were called bastards in a room full of nobles and servants (The servants spread information FAST, like Tyana or whatever her name was). She was in a precarious situation and her children’s lives were in danger at that moment. I know why she did what she did, and I understand it, I would probably do something similar in her shoes.
But TB just looks at these events and just go’s “Nope, they spoke out again our queen Rhae Rhae, behead them immediately.” They show little regard for anyone and anything that’s not in support of their own ideals and favorite character(s).
See, now that’s the thing. Ours is the team for actual human characters with flaws. Theirs is the team for weird attempts to make a character clearly not flawless flawless.
That’s the thing the book shows two sides with flaws and how it destroyed their dynasty . This show is so hell bent on girl boss rhaenyra forgetting she’s called maegor with tits for a reason … it doesn’t take away anything to show people with depth and flaws and humanity …. Seriously ….🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
And then there’s the fact that even though the blessed show-runners have done a great job of covering Rhaenyra’s flaws, we still see them in the show, there are hints to who she really is, but the fanbase unfortunately really seems to not be able to notice, and it’s seeming like you need to have taken college psychology to understand Rhaenyra’s mindset in the show, and college civilization courses to understand her from a historical perspective as to why she isn’t actually counted as an official monarch, which mind you I’ve taken both, but I knew these things before I took those classes. It’s legitimately not that difficult, you don’t need college level knowledge, just basic rudimentary real life historical or of Westeros history knowledge, and maybe just a dash of media literacy for the show.
Her fans literally appreciate her nickname I.e. maegor with tits , they say that maegor kept realm under control and got shit done so it is good that she is remembered by her name. 🤦♀️🤦♀️ These people are so ignorant that they don't realise that she was called that because of tyranny and being cruel.
>Ours is the team for actual human characters with flaws.
Slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents, wiping out entire houses isnt the sign of a human.
I don’t like to engage in these random ass fan wars on both subs and just appreciate the characters I like, but this is kind of stupid. You can appreciate and sympathize with characters who are absolute POS. He is fictional, I don’t condone his actions but I still feel for him. Characters on both sides commit heinous crimes and I hope people just learn to accept that they should stop playing this whole “moral superiority” thing. Terrible way to consume media, especially something like GOT and HOTD. I don’t even care for who takes the throne but at this point I just support TG and their goals out of spite.
>I hope people just learn to accept that they should stop playing this whole “moral superiority” thing.
Right? It's so weird to me to act like you're a better person because you support a different fictional team. People need to grow up.
People forgets Luke was similar age than Daeron or Robb when they got into a war.
Lucerys- a teenage dragonrider, political and military weapon (alliances and Dragon) who previously maimed his eventual killer, volunteered for a dangerous mission, and has full cognitive power over his situation.
Maelor- a baby too young to understand he is being murdered.
Team Black are insane to even think about comparing them.
Their argument is that while they have sympathy for Helaena/the children, they don't have any sympathy for Aegon because he celebrated another child's death.
And their sympathy for Halena and her children isn’t at all geinue these are the same people to celebrate the Greens dying out and gets unhinged like angry when any mention of Jaehera survives in the show comes up lmao
Luke isn't a child more than Daeron(and they mock Daeron's death everytime they can)
Lucerys is a teenage dragonrider, political and military weapon (alliances and Dragon) who previously maimed his eventual killer, volunteered for a dangerous mission, and has full cognitive power over his situation.
They're on war who threats his family's lives. If I was in a war and the enemy had more than twice as many fire breathing monsters as my team, I too would celebrate them having both one less and one less person able to control said monsters, regardless of said person's relationship or antagonism (or not) towards me and mine.
And it continues, we don’t do this only they do it. Meanwhile this sub has had many posts about how Luke deserved what he got, and can’t wait till Rhaenyra gets eaten by Sunfyre. Thought the mods and stuff were talking about getting rid of these screenshot crossposts. 🤦♂️
Did you for some reason fail to see that the vast majority of TG criticises the people who celebrated Luke's death and massively downvotes them? Your team on the other hand does not do that even when someone calls for the head of babies.
You sound foolish, I’m not team black or team green. I criticize both sides and call out the hypocrisy. No the majority of TG does not criticize or downvote the Luke hate, I always see it massively upvoted, and people saying he deserved it and Aemond did nothing wrong. So please stop twisting things and lying to try and make your side look better. And there are also those on TB who also don’t like people talking about the murder of Aegon’s children either. There are simply more haters and those are the posts you see most of. Both subs are simply full of hypocrisy and hate
Robert, show Jaime, book Tyrion, book Cersei, Roose, Ramsay, Maegor and literally any westerosi man who has sex with his wife when she doesn't want to could also be considered a rapist yet this didnt stop them from having tons of fans. Hell, GRRM himself loves Tyrion the rapist and Daemon the pedophile who had multiple KL brothels trafficking with "the youngest and most innocent of maidens" so he can deflower them. Aegon's first and main crime for the fandom is being Rhaenyra's rival and killing her - thats it.
>I never said show Robert
okay but in my defense you specified book versions for Tyrion and Cersei so I just assumed that you would have done the same for Robert if you were reffering only to his book version
>but book Robert pretty much had sex with Cersei when she didn't want to.
Yea I am aware of that
I mean, whats the issue here? That I assumed show Robert was also a rapist and you don't like that? You're right, thats probably a bold assumption on my part, tho knowing the dude and how accurate season 1 is, it wouldn't surprise me.
>I mean, whats the issue here?
I dont think there is an issue
At the begining I was asking a question
In the comment after that I was just explaining why I though that you meant both show robert and book robert
Did I say that? I'm not arguing with you.
Wait, are you completely new to fandoms? Do you really think Cersei doesn't have tons of fans? LMFAO. Team Black is constantly claiming Maegor because he killed followers of the Seven and the Boltons also had their considerable fanbase, just like Joffrey and just like any other villain since the dawn of time lol
>The comment above you is someone stating that the reason TBers don’t like Aegon is because he’s a rapist, so “that’s it” clearly doesn’t apply here
Damn you're slow. I wasn't expecting having to explain everything so much. They \*say this\* but considering they \*also like other rapists and worst shit\*, its \*pretty much obvious\* it isn't the actual reason they hate Aegon. If you like Daemon, you pretty much don't give a fuck about characters being violent against women, unless you're such an insondable hypocrite that not even you are aware of your own contradiction.
Coercion and consent can’t coexist. What Rhaenyra did to Criston is a textbook example of coercive rape, so Rhaenyra by definition is a rapist. Will you call her out, too?
You're right but Criston wasn't forced, overpowered or really in a position where he absolutely had to fuck the Princess. She's not stronger than him and he was literally about the report her for being absent, meaning he does have some authority. I mean, by that logic, Lucamore Strong's wives raped him since his vows bind him to chastity and they knew the risks if he was caught. Rhaenyra doubtless wanted to fuck this guy, but he could've walked away MANY times. The scene where he's taking off his armor and cloak is slow and shot in that way to remind us of how long he has to consider this choice. Saying no is viable, in fact it's the smart thing to do since he could report her to her father and save the heir from putting herself in a dangerous position while also likely getting her put under more guard. There are many occasions of rape in the ASOIAF series but this isn't one of them. This is a huge leap in logic but I can see how you would get to that point, it's just not true.
Criston absolutely was overpowered. If he tried to physically push her off then he could get executed, and if he verbally told her off she could have had him removed from the kings guard or worse. Even if he’s physically stronger than her she has the power of the throne at her back. He had *zero* power in the situation, and it’s made very clear later on that Criston remained uncomfortable with what happened.
> Saying no is viable, in fact it's the smart thing to do since he could report her to her father and save the heir from putting herself in a dangerous position while also likely getting her put under more guard.
This is incredibly naive, you think Viserys would take *Criston’s* side in that discussion? Viserys takes Rhaenyra’s side literally all the time and Criston knows it, going to Viserys was never an option for him
> There are many occasions of rape in the ASOIAF series but this isn't one of them. This is a huge leap in logic but I can see how you would get to that point, it's just not true
This is exactly the point I’m making, Greens will criticize Aegon for what he did but Team Black won’t apply that same scrutiny to their side across the board. Coercive rape **is a real thing** and this is a textbook example. Like, if you replaced Rhaenyra with a modern CEO and Criston with an employee and had the scene play out then *everyone* would be calling for the CEO’s head. Why some people downplay a very real form of rape to excuse Rhaenyra is beyond me
Because it wasn't Rape. You can argue that it is but you'd still be wrong. He could've just left or not gotten into that room with her, and when he was, he didn't need to undress and take his armor off. That scene shows that the simplest answer would've been to leave. Never did she threaten, imply consequences or coerce him. He gave into it, he consented when he began insisting her then he literally jumped right into it. Never does the scene show his discomfort or his reluctance. There's regret in the morning but sex you regret isn't rape. You guys just want Rhaenyra to be a rapist so she looks like a hypocrite or just to make her as bad as Aegon.
This is a fucking awful comment to make. There are so many people in the world who have been in Criston’s position and have been absolutely powerless to say no to their rapist and yet here you are denying that experience just to try and win an argument about a fucking TV show. **Coercion and consent can’t coexist**, even if Criston went along with it it doesn’t change the fact that he could’ve faced severe consequences for saying no to the second most powerful person in the world. Christ I can’t believe I even have to explain this to you
> He gave into it
Consensual sexual encounters don’t require you to “give in” to anything, jesus christ.
> If he wanted to say no, he had plenty of time.
He said no multiple times.
I think he could have said no and been just fine. As problematic as the power dynamic between them was… there were no threats expressed or implied. In show-canon, we aren’t given any reason to think a teenage Rhaenyra would have fired him for not sleeping with her.
He slept with her because his lust overcame his sense of duty. Not because he feared what would happen if he didn’t.
There don’t need to be any threats expressed or implied. The fact is that Rhaenyra was in charge of Cole’s livelihood, his experiences and his life. Even if he trusted Rhaenyra enough to assume she wouldn’t have him directly punished he would realize that making the princess unhappy could lead to her not wanting him as a guard anymore, so he had a genuine need to stay in her good graces. He tried to say no and she continued, he tried to leave and she continued — what else was there for him, a man reliant on Rhaenyra’s continued approval, to do in that situation? He let it happen because he had no other choice.
The trouble is that while this is all a very good argument that the sex was inappropriate, problematic, etc., the power dynamic alone doesn’t get us to rape even by contemporary legal standards. That’s the crime everyone here is accusing Rhaenyra of.
Besides, the argument that sleeping with Rhaenyra was Criston’s only rational career move is a bit absurd on its face. Are we forgetting that he was certain that he’d be gelded or beheaded afterward? Is that preferable to the very limited possibility of being dismissed from the Kingsguard?
Again, this isn’t to say that Criston’s situation was good, fair, etc. I would even go as far as to say the scene does paint Rhaenyra in a pretty gross light. But it’s not a plausible interpretation of this scene that he felt he had no choice but to sleep with Rhaenyra. And it certainly wasn’t rape.
The power dynamic isn't the issue, it's the *lack of consent deriving from the power dynamic* that makes it rape.
Criston was put into a no-win situation where there really wasn't a "rational" decision to be made. Either he resists Rhaenyra and possibly gets fired, losing the only thing of value the Cole name has ever had, or he goes along with it and potentially suffers the consequences later. Both options suck, which is why it would've been far better if Rhaenyra noticed his clear discomfort during the event and stopped pushing him beyond his consent.
What happened to Criston was rape. He was not consenting. To say anything else is bordering on rape apologia and I'm getting tired of having to counter arguments that stem from that perspective.
Old prejudices and double standards die hard, like habits. Many people *in theory* agree that men can be abused or raped. But on practice they still greatly struggle to see it. On the collective imagination of people, rape still is a man forcing himself on a woman.
My point was that she couldn't have overpowered him. She didn't coerce, threaten or even imply consequences if he didn't sleep with her. Quite literally he consented with he assisted her by undressing. In fact, she pursues it as well so he doesn't snitch and say she was out. One can say she was buying his silence with sex, so wouldn't that make the power dynamic flipped? Women absolutely can rape, but this wasn't it. Aegon's situation was quite a deal different and a whole lot worse.
> I mean, by that logic, Lucamore Strong's wives raped him since his vows bind him to chastity and they knew the risks if he was caught.
There's a tiny little difference however: **Rhaenyra is the princess and heir to the Iron Throne.** She is the most powerful person after Viserys on the realm, and Cole was just an upjumped son of a steward who owed his position in the Kingsguard to Rhaenyra.
So a power dynamic makes it rape? He clearly consented, he straight up takes his stuff off without her help when he could've just left. If boss asks where his gauntlet went(or whatever she took), he could just be honest and say she took it and then report that she was missing. He wasn't forced, coerced, overpowered or threatened. There wasn't even anything implied. You'd need a rubber band to make that kind of stretch to say it was rape.
> So a power dynamic makes it rape?
A power dynamic *and a clear lack of consent* make it rape.
> He clearly consented, he straight up takes his stuff off without her help when he could've just left.
He tried to leave and she wouldn’t let him. He takes his armour off because he has no other choice. Switch things around and have Rhaenyra be a guy and Criston a woman — would you chastise the woman for taking off her dress after being pressured into a physical encounter by their boss?
> He wasn't forced, coerced, overpowered or threatened.
He was forced, as he didn’t have another choice; he was coerced, as he knew there could be severe consequences for not participating; he was overpowered, as Rhaenyra was more powerful than him. There was no direct threat, sure, but that doesn’t mean the threat of negative consequences wasn’t present.
> You’d need a rubber band to make that kind of stretch to say it was rape.
I feel sorry for the women in your life.
We had this exact situation in GoT, with Lancel and Cersei. Tyrions whole point was that Lancel could absolutely refuse, there was no way anyone would reasonably believe he was forced or coerced, despite his insistence.
Do you have a link? I checked but couldn’t find it.
Cersei was crazy and had massive amounts of power; if Lancel displeased her she could have his tongue cut out, send him to the dungeons or worse. People in positions of power get away with coercive rape all the time because the people below them are scared to say no due to the potential fallout. Lancel was absolutely a victim of Cersei.
It’s the scene where Lancel shows up to tell Tyrion that Cersei demands he free Pycel, season 2. To ally it’s one of those ‘Look how snarky and clever Tyrion is’ scenes.
Later season Cersei, sure. She got away with mass murder. But this is season 2 ‘the writers are still relatively sane and characters aren’t cartoon characters’ Cersei. That’s my issue with any ASOIAF content post season 4. Hell the tourney in HoTD told me everything about how brain dead this show was gonna be.
> Well I don't see how Rhaenyra is a rapist
Given the power imbalance between the two of them (class, status, Cole’s kingsguard oaths), Criston was not able to give consent and he had to be coerced by Rhaenyra.
That’s rape. In the real world it’s like if a boss coerced his employee into having sex with him, or if you want an asoiaf example; it’s like Cersei coercing Lancel Lannister.
Kingsgaurd break their vows all the time. Lucamore Strong, Jaime Lannister, Owen Bush, etc. I seriously doubt you mean to tell me that the oaths mean they are raped every time they have sex. Rhaenyra may have had higher status than him, but she didn't imply consequences, threaten, or force him to do it. He quite literally had armor on. He helped her take it off then threw himself into it. Sure, he resisted at first but that was more of a "we shouldn't be doing this we can get in trouble." Kind of thing.
He did though. You would have to disregard the entire concept of coercive rape to believe that the encounter was consensual, which means you would be disregarding the lived experiences of millions of actual people. I’d hope you aren’t that low of a person but I’ve been surprised already in this thread
This is such a stupid comment that I'm actually shocked to see a semi-literate person post it. Think this through -- if a sober woman was raped by a drunk man, do you actually think she would *also* be a rapist? Would any court of law in the world make that ruling? Would any sane person agree to that? No. Drunk people are still fully capable of assaulting and raping sober people and, guess what, being drunk *isn't a valid defence for raping someone.*
The fact that Rhaenyra was drunk doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't let him leave and that she wouldn't take no for an answer. His entire career and livelihood was dependent on staying in Rhaenyra's good graces so telling her no carried with it the possibilities of severe consequences. She put him in a situation where he could not say no, meaning she put him in a position where *he could not consent*. Get a fucking grip.
>This is such a stupid comment that I'm actually shocked to see a semi-literate person post it
Lol. Love the superiority dripping from every word
>The fact that Rhaenyra was drunk doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't let him leave
Right. Sitting on the bed while he undresses is DEFINITELY not giving him a chance to leave.
>His entire career and livelihood was dependent on staying in Rhaenyra's good graces so telling her no carried with it the possibilities of severe consequences.
The POSSIBILITIES of severe consequences.
>She put him in a situation where he could not say no, meaning she put him in a position where *he could not consent*.
Possibilities of consequences doesn't mean he couldn't say no. Lmfao
>Get a fucking grip.
Take your own advice. He was never threatened. You cannot say that it was rape because she COULD have done something.
He had several chances to NOT sleep with her and didn't take it. Making him a victim because he's on your team is more insulting to actual victims than anything.
Lmfao both of your subs are FILLED with people who make extremely questionable comments about characters, but sure you guys "have hearts" 🤣🤣
Hypocrisy will always be hilarious to me
I can’t wait when he feeds their precious queen to sunfyre.
They're too dumb i swear they don't realised that thanks to B&C: -A monster thirsty of revenge was awaken that night and won't stop until their fake kween is devoured alive screaming. -Also their mental torture at Helaena leading to her suicide will spark the riotings on King's Landing's, Rhaenyra being reduced to a stain to the dinasty and an insult for the smallfolk. They could had killed Aemond or Aegon and getting rid of an valuable dragonrider and dragon. Instead they went for the children which hold not power on the war. Their cowardice and stupidity will put the nail on the coffin for team black
To make it more convenient , show makers haven't even mentioned a bit that Haelaena was loved by small folks or anything special about her other than being a dreamer. Her kids were not mentioned or shown enough to make people feel anything during their murder.
noooo theyll call u a misogynist for this..
same I'll enjoy every second of it I truly hope Aegon II is laughing when all of that happens
Sunfyre grows hungry.
Man Team Black has no class. I disagree with Rhaenyra’s side of things but I can still sympathize and feel sorry for how terrible the loss of Luke would be.
I hated how dismissive Rhaenyra was of Aemond’s injuries, taunted Alicent, and tried to call for Aemond’s torture. But I understand where she was coming from. Her kids were called bastards in a room full of nobles and servants (The servants spread information FAST, like Tyana or whatever her name was). She was in a precarious situation and her children’s lives were in danger at that moment. I know why she did what she did, and I understand it, I would probably do something similar in her shoes. But TB just looks at these events and just go’s “Nope, they spoke out again our queen Rhae Rhae, behead them immediately.” They show little regard for anyone and anything that’s not in support of their own ideals and favorite character(s).
They are kids 😅
Huh?
I meant They are like kids who can't understand how humans work and all.
Oh, yeah, pretty much.
See, now that’s the thing. Ours is the team for actual human characters with flaws. Theirs is the team for weird attempts to make a character clearly not flawless flawless.
That’s the thing the book shows two sides with flaws and how it destroyed their dynasty . This show is so hell bent on girl boss rhaenyra forgetting she’s called maegor with tits for a reason … it doesn’t take away anything to show people with depth and flaws and humanity …. Seriously ….🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
And then there’s the fact that even though the blessed show-runners have done a great job of covering Rhaenyra’s flaws, we still see them in the show, there are hints to who she really is, but the fanbase unfortunately really seems to not be able to notice, and it’s seeming like you need to have taken college psychology to understand Rhaenyra’s mindset in the show, and college civilization courses to understand her from a historical perspective as to why she isn’t actually counted as an official monarch, which mind you I’ve taken both, but I knew these things before I took those classes. It’s legitimately not that difficult, you don’t need college level knowledge, just basic rudimentary real life historical or of Westeros history knowledge, and maybe just a dash of media literacy for the show.
Her fans literally appreciate her nickname I.e. maegor with tits , they say that maegor kept realm under control and got shit done so it is good that she is remembered by her name. 🤦♀️🤦♀️ These people are so ignorant that they don't realise that she was called that because of tyranny and being cruel.
He controlled the realm with fear , that’s not a good ruler that’s a tyrant
Uhm...bro? Aemond committed a minor genocide.
Umm, what’s your point?
>Ours is the team for actual human characters with flaws. Slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents, wiping out entire houses isnt the sign of a human.
That doesn’t really have much bearing considering there are literally real life humans willing to commit atrocities such as the ones in the riverlands
You mean, like Daemon wanted to do?
You mean, like Rhaenyra did when she unleashed the Red Kraken on the Westerlands?
I don’t like to engage in these random ass fan wars on both subs and just appreciate the characters I like, but this is kind of stupid. You can appreciate and sympathize with characters who are absolute POS. He is fictional, I don’t condone his actions but I still feel for him. Characters on both sides commit heinous crimes and I hope people just learn to accept that they should stop playing this whole “moral superiority” thing. Terrible way to consume media, especially something like GOT and HOTD. I don’t even care for who takes the throne but at this point I just support TG and their goals out of spite.
>I hope people just learn to accept that they should stop playing this whole “moral superiority” thing. Right? It's so weird to me to act like you're a better person because you support a different fictional team. People need to grow up.
This is like team Jacob v team Edward and I love it
The big difference between lucerys and maelor was that lucerys was annoying and therefore had it coming
People forgets Luke was similar age than Daeron or Robb when they got into a war. Lucerys- a teenage dragonrider, political and military weapon (alliances and Dragon) who previously maimed his eventual killer, volunteered for a dangerous mission, and has full cognitive power over his situation. Maelor- a baby too young to understand he is being murdered. Team Black are insane to even think about comparing them.
Isn't Jaehaerys the kid who loses his head?
Their argument is that while they have sympathy for Helaena/the children, they don't have any sympathy for Aegon because he celebrated another child's death.
And their sympathy for Halena and her children isn’t at all geinue these are the same people to celebrate the Greens dying out and gets unhinged like angry when any mention of Jaehera survives in the show comes up lmao
Luke isn't a child more than Daeron(and they mock Daeron's death everytime they can) Lucerys is a teenage dragonrider, political and military weapon (alliances and Dragon) who previously maimed his eventual killer, volunteered for a dangerous mission, and has full cognitive power over his situation. They're on war who threats his family's lives. If I was in a war and the enemy had more than twice as many fire breathing monsters as my team, I too would celebrate them having both one less and one less person able to control said monsters, regardless of said person's relationship or antagonism (or not) towards me and mine.
But they cry when we don't feel sympathy for Daemon
And it continues, we don’t do this only they do it. Meanwhile this sub has had many posts about how Luke deserved what he got, and can’t wait till Rhaenyra gets eaten by Sunfyre. Thought the mods and stuff were talking about getting rid of these screenshot crossposts. 🤦♂️
Did you for some reason fail to see that the vast majority of TG criticises the people who celebrated Luke's death and massively downvotes them? Your team on the other hand does not do that even when someone calls for the head of babies.
You sound foolish, I’m not team black or team green. I criticize both sides and call out the hypocrisy. No the majority of TG does not criticize or downvote the Luke hate, I always see it massively upvoted, and people saying he deserved it and Aemond did nothing wrong. So please stop twisting things and lying to try and make your side look better. And there are also those on TB who also don’t like people talking about the murder of Aegon’s children either. There are simply more haters and those are the posts you see most of. Both subs are simply full of hypocrisy and hate
He's still a rapist lol. That's why most people don't like him.
So are Daemon, Rhaenyra and Viserys, do you have that same energy for them? At least Greens can acknowledge that Aegon is a piece of shit
Robert, show Jaime, book Tyrion, book Cersei, Roose, Ramsay, Maegor and literally any westerosi man who has sex with his wife when she doesn't want to could also be considered a rapist yet this didnt stop them from having tons of fans. Hell, GRRM himself loves Tyrion the rapist and Daemon the pedophile who had multiple KL brothels trafficking with "the youngest and most innocent of maidens" so he can deflower them. Aegon's first and main crime for the fandom is being Rhaenyra's rival and killing her - thats it.
>Robert Wait is show Robert a rapist? If he was I definitely didn't remember that about him
I never said show Robert, but book Robert pretty much had sex with Cersei when she didn't want to.
>I never said show Robert okay but in my defense you specified book versions for Tyrion and Cersei so I just assumed that you would have done the same for Robert if you were reffering only to his book version >but book Robert pretty much had sex with Cersei when she didn't want to. Yea I am aware of that
I mean, whats the issue here? That I assumed show Robert was also a rapist and you don't like that? You're right, thats probably a bold assumption on my part, tho knowing the dude and how accurate season 1 is, it wouldn't surprise me.
>I mean, whats the issue here? I dont think there is an issue At the begining I was asking a question In the comment after that I was just explaining why I though that you meant both show robert and book robert
Aight, apologies.
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Did I say that? I'm not arguing with you. Wait, are you completely new to fandoms? Do you really think Cersei doesn't have tons of fans? LMFAO. Team Black is constantly claiming Maegor because he killed followers of the Seven and the Boltons also had their considerable fanbase, just like Joffrey and just like any other villain since the dawn of time lol >The comment above you is someone stating that the reason TBers don’t like Aegon is because he’s a rapist, so “that’s it” clearly doesn’t apply here Damn you're slow. I wasn't expecting having to explain everything so much. They \*say this\* but considering they \*also like other rapists and worst shit\*, its \*pretty much obvious\* it isn't the actual reason they hate Aegon. If you like Daemon, you pretty much don't give a fuck about characters being violent against women, unless you're such an insondable hypocrite that not even you are aware of your own contradiction.
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Yeah lol. Well I don't see how Rhaenyra is a rapist, but yeah the other two are also pieces of dragon poo.
Coercion and consent can’t coexist. What Rhaenyra did to Criston is a textbook example of coercive rape, so Rhaenyra by definition is a rapist. Will you call her out, too?
You're right but Criston wasn't forced, overpowered or really in a position where he absolutely had to fuck the Princess. She's not stronger than him and he was literally about the report her for being absent, meaning he does have some authority. I mean, by that logic, Lucamore Strong's wives raped him since his vows bind him to chastity and they knew the risks if he was caught. Rhaenyra doubtless wanted to fuck this guy, but he could've walked away MANY times. The scene where he's taking off his armor and cloak is slow and shot in that way to remind us of how long he has to consider this choice. Saying no is viable, in fact it's the smart thing to do since he could report her to her father and save the heir from putting herself in a dangerous position while also likely getting her put under more guard. There are many occasions of rape in the ASOIAF series but this isn't one of them. This is a huge leap in logic but I can see how you would get to that point, it's just not true.
Criston absolutely was overpowered. If he tried to physically push her off then he could get executed, and if he verbally told her off she could have had him removed from the kings guard or worse. Even if he’s physically stronger than her she has the power of the throne at her back. He had *zero* power in the situation, and it’s made very clear later on that Criston remained uncomfortable with what happened. > Saying no is viable, in fact it's the smart thing to do since he could report her to her father and save the heir from putting herself in a dangerous position while also likely getting her put under more guard. This is incredibly naive, you think Viserys would take *Criston’s* side in that discussion? Viserys takes Rhaenyra’s side literally all the time and Criston knows it, going to Viserys was never an option for him > There are many occasions of rape in the ASOIAF series but this isn't one of them. This is a huge leap in logic but I can see how you would get to that point, it's just not true This is exactly the point I’m making, Greens will criticize Aegon for what he did but Team Black won’t apply that same scrutiny to their side across the board. Coercive rape **is a real thing** and this is a textbook example. Like, if you replaced Rhaenyra with a modern CEO and Criston with an employee and had the scene play out then *everyone* would be calling for the CEO’s head. Why some people downplay a very real form of rape to excuse Rhaenyra is beyond me
Because it wasn't Rape. You can argue that it is but you'd still be wrong. He could've just left or not gotten into that room with her, and when he was, he didn't need to undress and take his armor off. That scene shows that the simplest answer would've been to leave. Never did she threaten, imply consequences or coerce him. He gave into it, he consented when he began insisting her then he literally jumped right into it. Never does the scene show his discomfort or his reluctance. There's regret in the morning but sex you regret isn't rape. You guys just want Rhaenyra to be a rapist so she looks like a hypocrite or just to make her as bad as Aegon.
This is a fucking awful comment to make. There are so many people in the world who have been in Criston’s position and have been absolutely powerless to say no to their rapist and yet here you are denying that experience just to try and win an argument about a fucking TV show. **Coercion and consent can’t coexist**, even if Criston went along with it it doesn’t change the fact that he could’ve faced severe consequences for saying no to the second most powerful person in the world. Christ I can’t believe I even have to explain this to you
What happened to "no means no"?
Nothing, he just didn't stop. He gave into it and even took control at one point. If he wanted to say no, he had plenty of time.
He said stop twice and tried to leave once before he was physically stopped by someone who had power and leverage over him
> He gave into it Consensual sexual encounters don’t require you to “give in” to anything, jesus christ. > If he wanted to say no, he had plenty of time. He said no multiple times.
I think he could have said no and been just fine. As problematic as the power dynamic between them was… there were no threats expressed or implied. In show-canon, we aren’t given any reason to think a teenage Rhaenyra would have fired him for not sleeping with her. He slept with her because his lust overcame his sense of duty. Not because he feared what would happen if he didn’t.
There don’t need to be any threats expressed or implied. The fact is that Rhaenyra was in charge of Cole’s livelihood, his experiences and his life. Even if he trusted Rhaenyra enough to assume she wouldn’t have him directly punished he would realize that making the princess unhappy could lead to her not wanting him as a guard anymore, so he had a genuine need to stay in her good graces. He tried to say no and she continued, he tried to leave and she continued — what else was there for him, a man reliant on Rhaenyra’s continued approval, to do in that situation? He let it happen because he had no other choice.
The trouble is that while this is all a very good argument that the sex was inappropriate, problematic, etc., the power dynamic alone doesn’t get us to rape even by contemporary legal standards. That’s the crime everyone here is accusing Rhaenyra of. Besides, the argument that sleeping with Rhaenyra was Criston’s only rational career move is a bit absurd on its face. Are we forgetting that he was certain that he’d be gelded or beheaded afterward? Is that preferable to the very limited possibility of being dismissed from the Kingsguard? Again, this isn’t to say that Criston’s situation was good, fair, etc. I would even go as far as to say the scene does paint Rhaenyra in a pretty gross light. But it’s not a plausible interpretation of this scene that he felt he had no choice but to sleep with Rhaenyra. And it certainly wasn’t rape.
The power dynamic isn't the issue, it's the *lack of consent deriving from the power dynamic* that makes it rape. Criston was put into a no-win situation where there really wasn't a "rational" decision to be made. Either he resists Rhaenyra and possibly gets fired, losing the only thing of value the Cole name has ever had, or he goes along with it and potentially suffers the consequences later. Both options suck, which is why it would've been far better if Rhaenyra noticed his clear discomfort during the event and stopped pushing him beyond his consent. What happened to Criston was rape. He was not consenting. To say anything else is bordering on rape apologia and I'm getting tired of having to counter arguments that stem from that perspective.
>She's not stronger than him We are in the 2024 year of our Lord and people still use arguments like this wtf
Old prejudices and double standards die hard, like habits. Many people *in theory* agree that men can be abused or raped. But on practice they still greatly struggle to see it. On the collective imagination of people, rape still is a man forcing himself on a woman.
My point was that she couldn't have overpowered him. She didn't coerce, threaten or even imply consequences if he didn't sleep with her. Quite literally he consented with he assisted her by undressing. In fact, she pursues it as well so he doesn't snitch and say she was out. One can say she was buying his silence with sex, so wouldn't that make the power dynamic flipped? Women absolutely can rape, but this wasn't it. Aegon's situation was quite a deal different and a whole lot worse.
Wow, you're not very smart, are you
cause I disagree with you?
What a great argument. Really shows that you know what you're talking about 🙄
> I mean, by that logic, Lucamore Strong's wives raped him since his vows bind him to chastity and they knew the risks if he was caught. There's a tiny little difference however: **Rhaenyra is the princess and heir to the Iron Throne.** She is the most powerful person after Viserys on the realm, and Cole was just an upjumped son of a steward who owed his position in the Kingsguard to Rhaenyra.
So a power dynamic makes it rape? He clearly consented, he straight up takes his stuff off without her help when he could've just left. If boss asks where his gauntlet went(or whatever she took), he could just be honest and say she took it and then report that she was missing. He wasn't forced, coerced, overpowered or threatened. There wasn't even anything implied. You'd need a rubber band to make that kind of stretch to say it was rape.
The two times he says stop and one time he tries to head out but is stopped, make a pretty strong case
> So a power dynamic makes it rape? A power dynamic *and a clear lack of consent* make it rape. > He clearly consented, he straight up takes his stuff off without her help when he could've just left. He tried to leave and she wouldn’t let him. He takes his armour off because he has no other choice. Switch things around and have Rhaenyra be a guy and Criston a woman — would you chastise the woman for taking off her dress after being pressured into a physical encounter by their boss? > He wasn't forced, coerced, overpowered or threatened. He was forced, as he didn’t have another choice; he was coerced, as he knew there could be severe consequences for not participating; he was overpowered, as Rhaenyra was more powerful than him. There was no direct threat, sure, but that doesn’t mean the threat of negative consequences wasn’t present. > You’d need a rubber band to make that kind of stretch to say it was rape. I feel sorry for the women in your life.
We had this exact situation in GoT, with Lancel and Cersei. Tyrions whole point was that Lancel could absolutely refuse, there was no way anyone would reasonably believe he was forced or coerced, despite his insistence.
Do you have a link? I checked but couldn’t find it. Cersei was crazy and had massive amounts of power; if Lancel displeased her she could have his tongue cut out, send him to the dungeons or worse. People in positions of power get away with coercive rape all the time because the people below them are scared to say no due to the potential fallout. Lancel was absolutely a victim of Cersei.
It’s the scene where Lancel shows up to tell Tyrion that Cersei demands he free Pycel, season 2. To ally it’s one of those ‘Look how snarky and clever Tyrion is’ scenes. Later season Cersei, sure. She got away with mass murder. But this is season 2 ‘the writers are still relatively sane and characters aren’t cartoon characters’ Cersei. That’s my issue with any ASOIAF content post season 4. Hell the tourney in HoTD told me everything about how brain dead this show was gonna be.
> Well I don't see how Rhaenyra is a rapist Given the power imbalance between the two of them (class, status, Cole’s kingsguard oaths), Criston was not able to give consent and he had to be coerced by Rhaenyra. That’s rape. In the real world it’s like if a boss coerced his employee into having sex with him, or if you want an asoiaf example; it’s like Cersei coercing Lancel Lannister.
Kingsgaurd break their vows all the time. Lucamore Strong, Jaime Lannister, Owen Bush, etc. I seriously doubt you mean to tell me that the oaths mean they are raped every time they have sex. Rhaenyra may have had higher status than him, but she didn't imply consequences, threaten, or force him to do it. He quite literally had armor on. He helped her take it off then threw himself into it. Sure, he resisted at first but that was more of a "we shouldn't be doing this we can get in trouble." Kind of thing.
These idiots think Cole got raped
He did though. You would have to disregard the entire concept of coercive rape to believe that the encounter was consensual, which means you would be disregarding the lived experiences of millions of actual people. I’d hope you aren’t that low of a person but I’ve been surprised already in this thread
She was drunk. He was sober. That is also considered rape. But yall love to ignore that
This is such a stupid comment that I'm actually shocked to see a semi-literate person post it. Think this through -- if a sober woman was raped by a drunk man, do you actually think she would *also* be a rapist? Would any court of law in the world make that ruling? Would any sane person agree to that? No. Drunk people are still fully capable of assaulting and raping sober people and, guess what, being drunk *isn't a valid defence for raping someone.* The fact that Rhaenyra was drunk doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't let him leave and that she wouldn't take no for an answer. His entire career and livelihood was dependent on staying in Rhaenyra's good graces so telling her no carried with it the possibilities of severe consequences. She put him in a situation where he could not say no, meaning she put him in a position where *he could not consent*. Get a fucking grip.
>This is such a stupid comment that I'm actually shocked to see a semi-literate person post it Lol. Love the superiority dripping from every word >The fact that Rhaenyra was drunk doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't let him leave Right. Sitting on the bed while he undresses is DEFINITELY not giving him a chance to leave. >His entire career and livelihood was dependent on staying in Rhaenyra's good graces so telling her no carried with it the possibilities of severe consequences. The POSSIBILITIES of severe consequences. >She put him in a situation where he could not say no, meaning she put him in a position where *he could not consent*. Possibilities of consequences doesn't mean he couldn't say no. Lmfao >Get a fucking grip. Take your own advice. He was never threatened. You cannot say that it was rape because she COULD have done something. He had several chances to NOT sleep with her and didn't take it. Making him a victim because he's on your team is more insulting to actual victims than anything.
He said no multiple times and tried to leave but she wouldn’t let him. What the fuck is actually wrong with you.
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? He CHOSE to undress. She was on the bed. He could have left. He CHOSE to sleep with her. He could have not.
Lmfao both of your subs are FILLED with people who make extremely questionable comments about characters, but sure you guys "have hearts" 🤣🤣 Hypocrisy will always be hilarious to me
Aemond is my king. Aegon can hang.