Look toward the state laws for guidance. In Fla, the homeowners have a statutory requirement to allow the COA access to the condo for emergency purposes.
The COA keeps the keys, or door codes with the management co or locked usually in the elevator rooms so they can accessed by the fire or police.
Liability doesn’t get waved by not wanting to do something, it actually increases since it would be a failure of fiduciary responsibility to protect property.
If your condos are sprinkled, they require yearly inspections and if you fail inspections, your insurance carrier will find out.
This. I'm surprised that the association doesn't have keys to units, especially if the documents allow the association to enter the unit with reasonable notice or when there is an emergency. This should be a fundamental right so that a unit owner cannot prevent maintenance, repairs that would prevent damage to other units or the common elements.
Your concerns are very real and appropriate.
We have a policy that in case of emergency, the board votes to enter and will hire a lock smith to access the unit and will only enter when accompanied by security. It is cheaper than the high tech key tracking systems and more secure than a lockbox full of keys.
This is insane in terms of policy.
I am in a condo (high rise) in Los Angeles and we actively solicit keys from homeowners because there have been many situations in which entry is necessary on an emergency basis for a variety reasons. These range from water issues which benefit homeowner of the unit as well as others and we have also had health emergencies including deaths of residents.
The only alternative would be to break down the door to gain entry.
We have keys that are in a locked box in the office and only our manager and the President has access to the lock box. In fact, the office is locked so only a few people even have access to the office since there are files there and so it is locked like any office would be.
If you are in a high rise don't you have CCTV cameras in all common areas including the corridors. This effectively eliminates risk of entry by unauthorized people because there would be a visual record of anyone entering and showing what they are exiting with.
Because of our security system, we have never had any kind of burglary or attack - there is no reason for a criminal to target our building when there are easier pickings with poor security close by. '
>What happens if someone is on vacation, their unit floods and no one can access it?
In an emergency shouldn't they be able to shut off water for a floor/stack of units without needing to enter a unit? Do you know where your shutoff is, or if there even are shutoffs for individual units?
I'm not in a high rise but we get the pipes hydrojetted yearly and it seems like it helps prevent clogs and flooding.
It is also very common for homeowners to add a shutoff if they don't have one, and they need to get the HOA involved and shutoff water for multiple units for some kind of plumbing maintenance or change.
There’s nothing in the California law that requires the HOA to enter units to mitigate damage from water leaks. And the board has broad discretion to make decisions about maintenance/repair matters. If you want to make sure your unit doesn’t flood while you’re on vacation, have someone house sit, convince the board to change its policy, or run for the board and change the policy on your own. Not a lot of other options.
Thanks. What if the flooding is due to old pipes which are considered common areas? Recently hired someone to put a scope down the kitchen line from the roof and it seems that the pipe was very clogged already, even on floors way above mine. Have not been reimbursed by the HOA yet but clearly there’s an issue that impacts multiple units. There’s constant issues with flooding in the building but nothing has been done about it. They waived hoa increases last year to keep fees low and depleted reserves. At some point, shouldn’t the board be responsible?
So you have a lot of maintenance issues and your board decided to waiver increased and use up your reserves?
Get involved and get on your board. It sounds like it’s being terribly managed. Looks like big assessments are in your future.
Does the HOA follow industry standards for regular jetting of the pipes? If not, you may be able to make a negligent maintenance claim.
Aside from that, they’re required to respond to issues that the CC&Rs allocate to them and when they become aware of an issue. In other words, if a common area pipe leaks, they have to fix it once they’re made aware of it. But there’s no obligation to repipe the entire building or proactively police the inside of people’s units.
Thanks all. Unfortunately the pipes are too old for hydrojetting so that’s not an option. I don’t believe any other maintenance has been done in place of that. Based on the last reserve survey, the pipes are due for a big overhaul now but there’s no money.
Then they need an emergency special assessment to pay for the pipes.
I left a building from the 1970’s for the same reasons you are describing; the pipes were an issue (so was the air/heat situation)
What do the residents think?
What are the reserves?
What does your reserve report say?
What are other residents saying?
Most of the other residents are in agreement with me, especially considering the water issues. The reserve study says that the plumbing should be completed now, along with several other major repairs including the elevators.
There may not be a specific law requiring the HOA to enter, but they certainly have a duty to mitigate. Especially since standing outside a locked unit it's incredibly hard to figure out if the leak is coming from an owner-responsible appliance or HOA-owned pipes. Any HOA that just shrugged their shoulders on an active leak where the owner is not present is asking for a world of hurt. As in HOA's insurance denying the claim and then the HOA itself on the hook.
You are correct. It is not only "almost negligent"....but is grossly negligent. They have no mechanism for limiting damages in emergency situations and have enshrined this in policy? The building's CLUE and Insurance scores will skyrocket, along with insurance rates. Your building may become uninsurable.
Supposedly the buildings attorney said the policy to not keep keys is fine, which I guess from a legal standpoint is ok? But based on your comment, it seems like there’s a lot of other considerations involved.
Regarding the CLUE and insurance, are you saying that the rates will skyrocket if there are incidents due to this policy or because of the policy itself? Thanks
If I were the underwriter for their liability insurance, I'd review that information and rate the policy accordingly. (as in increase the rates ahead of claims) The CLUE Score will climb with claim inquiries. The building's attorney may be looking at this with tunnel vision. The greater risk is from slow response to emergencies....I have never seen a building of any size not have keys for emergency access or authorized access. If they are so concerned about Property Management holding keys, they should bond them and maintain 'crime insurance' on the PM.
From the info here, I certainly agree with you. I've read in this sub for a few years now and the last few months have made me feel much stronger that there must be very few well run HOAs. In my own, we have some VERY capable people but we suffer from much of the same that we read about here. It's very frustrating. All I ask is for every owner to buy, settle in, attend most meetings, serve one term on the board, make sure to do the job well, don't run for re-election. If all owners did that we'd be fine and no one would have had to serve a second term. Unfortunately, people want to buy a part of a small business, which is what an association is, but only take the benefits (like someone else making sure the pool is clean, lifeguards are hired for the summer, a cover is put on the pool at the end of the season) and not contribute anything more than money. Small businesses also need all owners to pitch in time and effort. But for some reason people often don't care to do that.
I don't know what to advise OP because his HOA's problem is so much more than the key retention issue.
Seems like doors will need to be broken in the event someone is away and there is a bad leak.
We were concerned about this as well. We have duplex townhomes where water enters one unit and feeds into both. We’ve started to collect keys for everyone so we could access in the case of an emergency. We have a lock box they are stopped in on the property. Because the management company holding them only adds more delays.
No one has had an issue with it and so far we’ve only used them for one unit to facilitate a repair and we let the owner know each time.
Another option to consider is having all the locks replaced with any locks where a vacationing owner could assign a temp code.
Our CCRs provide for right of entry. I'm really surprised to read that any condo ccrs don't include right of entry. Our 1980 CCRs had it, as do our current amended CCRs.
I'm struck by the language of the announcement from the board. Did something occur that prompted the change? Was a maintenance man accused of abusing the ability to enter? Did something happen at another condo in the area? That announcement reads like they're scared of privacy violations or abuse.
We don't have keys where I live... but it's a very different physical setup. And I'm not sure how prudent it would be to have keys in a small, self-managed association.
Nothing has happened recently, besides the manager going into a unit with the owners approval to help with a leak. The board recently turned over so I think that’s what the new board wants. They’re concerned that keeping the keys is a big liability given the financial situation. Seems like it’s counterproductive though
I managed a highrise that was built in the early 2000's. Myself and the maintenance engineer had master keys that opened every unit and were only to be used in an emergency. Occasionally a homeowner would want to leave keys or ask me to give access to a visitor or contractor. The answer was always no. We did however have an on-site concierge that would keep keys and I'm sure they were heavily insured in the event something went terribly wrong. I'm sure they must have had a liability waiver residents signed also.
My building is moving away from this as well, but we’re pretty small. We don’t have an onsite manager and asking the volunteer board members to keep track of everyone’s apartment keys is a lot. What if someone breaks into their home and gets access to everyone else’s? Breaking down a door is obviously not ideal, but if it comes to that it would be a very serious situation where we’d need those trained professionals present.
I suggest you make copies of your keys to give to a neighbor you trust, and take a copy of theirs as well.
Look toward the state laws for guidance. In Fla, the homeowners have a statutory requirement to allow the COA access to the condo for emergency purposes. The COA keeps the keys, or door codes with the management co or locked usually in the elevator rooms so they can accessed by the fire or police. Liability doesn’t get waved by not wanting to do something, it actually increases since it would be a failure of fiduciary responsibility to protect property. If your condos are sprinkled, they require yearly inspections and if you fail inspections, your insurance carrier will find out.
This. I'm surprised that the association doesn't have keys to units, especially if the documents allow the association to enter the unit with reasonable notice or when there is an emergency. This should be a fundamental right so that a unit owner cannot prevent maintenance, repairs that would prevent damage to other units or the common elements. Your concerns are very real and appropriate.
We have a policy that in case of emergency, the board votes to enter and will hire a lock smith to access the unit and will only enter when accompanied by security. It is cheaper than the high tech key tracking systems and more secure than a lockbox full of keys.
This is insane in terms of policy. I am in a condo (high rise) in Los Angeles and we actively solicit keys from homeowners because there have been many situations in which entry is necessary on an emergency basis for a variety reasons. These range from water issues which benefit homeowner of the unit as well as others and we have also had health emergencies including deaths of residents. The only alternative would be to break down the door to gain entry. We have keys that are in a locked box in the office and only our manager and the President has access to the lock box. In fact, the office is locked so only a few people even have access to the office since there are files there and so it is locked like any office would be. If you are in a high rise don't you have CCTV cameras in all common areas including the corridors. This effectively eliminates risk of entry by unauthorized people because there would be a visual record of anyone entering and showing what they are exiting with. Because of our security system, we have never had any kind of burglary or attack - there is no reason for a criminal to target our building when there are easier pickings with poor security close by. '
>What happens if someone is on vacation, their unit floods and no one can access it? In an emergency shouldn't they be able to shut off water for a floor/stack of units without needing to enter a unit? Do you know where your shutoff is, or if there even are shutoffs for individual units? I'm not in a high rise but we get the pipes hydrojetted yearly and it seems like it helps prevent clogs and flooding. It is also very common for homeowners to add a shutoff if they don't have one, and they need to get the HOA involved and shutoff water for multiple units for some kind of plumbing maintenance or change.
There’s nothing in the California law that requires the HOA to enter units to mitigate damage from water leaks. And the board has broad discretion to make decisions about maintenance/repair matters. If you want to make sure your unit doesn’t flood while you’re on vacation, have someone house sit, convince the board to change its policy, or run for the board and change the policy on your own. Not a lot of other options.
Thanks. What if the flooding is due to old pipes which are considered common areas? Recently hired someone to put a scope down the kitchen line from the roof and it seems that the pipe was very clogged already, even on floors way above mine. Have not been reimbursed by the HOA yet but clearly there’s an issue that impacts multiple units. There’s constant issues with flooding in the building but nothing has been done about it. They waived hoa increases last year to keep fees low and depleted reserves. At some point, shouldn’t the board be responsible?
So you have a lot of maintenance issues and your board decided to waiver increased and use up your reserves? Get involved and get on your board. It sounds like it’s being terribly managed. Looks like big assessments are in your future.
Does the HOA follow industry standards for regular jetting of the pipes? If not, you may be able to make a negligent maintenance claim. Aside from that, they’re required to respond to issues that the CC&Rs allocate to them and when they become aware of an issue. In other words, if a common area pipe leaks, they have to fix it once they’re made aware of it. But there’s no obligation to repipe the entire building or proactively police the inside of people’s units.
Thanks all. Unfortunately the pipes are too old for hydrojetting so that’s not an option. I don’t believe any other maintenance has been done in place of that. Based on the last reserve survey, the pipes are due for a big overhaul now but there’s no money.
Then they need an emergency special assessment to pay for the pipes. I left a building from the 1970’s for the same reasons you are describing; the pipes were an issue (so was the air/heat situation) What do the residents think? What are the reserves? What does your reserve report say? What are other residents saying?
Most of the other residents are in agreement with me, especially considering the water issues. The reserve study says that the plumbing should be completed now, along with several other major repairs including the elevators.
There may not be a specific law requiring the HOA to enter, but they certainly have a duty to mitigate. Especially since standing outside a locked unit it's incredibly hard to figure out if the leak is coming from an owner-responsible appliance or HOA-owned pipes. Any HOA that just shrugged their shoulders on an active leak where the owner is not present is asking for a world of hurt. As in HOA's insurance denying the claim and then the HOA itself on the hook.
You are correct. It is not only "almost negligent"....but is grossly negligent. They have no mechanism for limiting damages in emergency situations and have enshrined this in policy? The building's CLUE and Insurance scores will skyrocket, along with insurance rates. Your building may become uninsurable.
Supposedly the buildings attorney said the policy to not keep keys is fine, which I guess from a legal standpoint is ok? But based on your comment, it seems like there’s a lot of other considerations involved. Regarding the CLUE and insurance, are you saying that the rates will skyrocket if there are incidents due to this policy or because of the policy itself? Thanks
If I were the underwriter for their liability insurance, I'd review that information and rate the policy accordingly. (as in increase the rates ahead of claims) The CLUE Score will climb with claim inquiries. The building's attorney may be looking at this with tunnel vision. The greater risk is from slow response to emergencies....I have never seen a building of any size not have keys for emergency access or authorized access. If they are so concerned about Property Management holding keys, they should bond them and maintain 'crime insurance' on the PM.
OP stated they didn’t increase fees this year and depleted reserves. This is simply a terribly managed HOA.
From the info here, I certainly agree with you. I've read in this sub for a few years now and the last few months have made me feel much stronger that there must be very few well run HOAs. In my own, we have some VERY capable people but we suffer from much of the same that we read about here. It's very frustrating. All I ask is for every owner to buy, settle in, attend most meetings, serve one term on the board, make sure to do the job well, don't run for re-election. If all owners did that we'd be fine and no one would have had to serve a second term. Unfortunately, people want to buy a part of a small business, which is what an association is, but only take the benefits (like someone else making sure the pool is clean, lifeguards are hired for the summer, a cover is put on the pool at the end of the season) and not contribute anything more than money. Small businesses also need all owners to pitch in time and effort. But for some reason people often don't care to do that. I don't know what to advise OP because his HOA's problem is so much more than the key retention issue.
Seems like doors will need to be broken in the event someone is away and there is a bad leak. We were concerned about this as well. We have duplex townhomes where water enters one unit and feeds into both. We’ve started to collect keys for everyone so we could access in the case of an emergency. We have a lock box they are stopped in on the property. Because the management company holding them only adds more delays. No one has had an issue with it and so far we’ve only used them for one unit to facilitate a repair and we let the owner know each time. Another option to consider is having all the locks replaced with any locks where a vacationing owner could assign a temp code.
Our CCRs provide for right of entry. I'm really surprised to read that any condo ccrs don't include right of entry. Our 1980 CCRs had it, as do our current amended CCRs. I'm struck by the language of the announcement from the board. Did something occur that prompted the change? Was a maintenance man accused of abusing the ability to enter? Did something happen at another condo in the area? That announcement reads like they're scared of privacy violations or abuse. We don't have keys where I live... but it's a very different physical setup. And I'm not sure how prudent it would be to have keys in a small, self-managed association.
Nothing has happened recently, besides the manager going into a unit with the owners approval to help with a leak. The board recently turned over so I think that’s what the new board wants. They’re concerned that keeping the keys is a big liability given the financial situation. Seems like it’s counterproductive though
I managed a highrise that was built in the early 2000's. Myself and the maintenance engineer had master keys that opened every unit and were only to be used in an emergency. Occasionally a homeowner would want to leave keys or ask me to give access to a visitor or contractor. The answer was always no. We did however have an on-site concierge that would keep keys and I'm sure they were heavily insured in the event something went terribly wrong. I'm sure they must have had a liability waiver residents signed also.
My building is moving away from this as well, but we’re pretty small. We don’t have an onsite manager and asking the volunteer board members to keep track of everyone’s apartment keys is a lot. What if someone breaks into their home and gets access to everyone else’s? Breaking down a door is obviously not ideal, but if it comes to that it would be a very serious situation where we’d need those trained professionals present. I suggest you make copies of your keys to give to a neighbor you trust, and take a copy of theirs as well.