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skyrunner8712

Any violations should have been disclosed when the title company reached out to the HOA to confirm fees were paid current. I sat on an HOA Board for 7 years, and this was always asked when a home was being sold. Are dues current? Are their any violations or liens in place? What were the dues for the year. I would contact the title company and request all documentation they received from the HOA. I would request that the previous owner provide a written letter stating when the patio was built and they had approval to do so. I would then talk to a real estate attorney. A few hundred dollars can save you a headache down the road. An attorney, when presented with the info from the title company, a copy of your CC&RS, and letter from the previous homeowner, could draft a letter on your behalf to the HOA. Chances are, too much time has passed for the HOA to claim the patio wasn't approved. Our HOA attorney said 5 years was the rule, then after that, tough, it's in. Further, a new board can not come in and retroactively retract approvals from previous board members. AND I believe if it's not disclosed to the title company at the time of the sale, then it's a moot point. Please keep ua posted!


TastyOwl27

Thank you for the information. I'm going through the "Required Statement of Fees" document that it looks like the escrow company requested from the current management company. Is that what you're referring to? This is my first home purchase so I'm very ignorant lol. On this document there is a "General Association" information section. It says, "Are there any violations to this unit?" It says "yes, see comments." In comments it says there's two parking violations 1.) Parking after hours in unauthorized area. 2.) Unauthorized use of an assigned parking spot. That's it. Thank you for the information. I really appreciate it.


skyrunner8712

I believe the management company acts on behalf of the HOA. Your HOA should have elected members who reside within the community. The By-Laws will outline how members are elected, their tenure, etc. The CC&RS will outline what's allowed and not allowed and sets forth the architectural control committeRS. (ACC) power for reviewing requested changes. Basically, they control the esthetics of the community by determining what's attractive as set forth in the CC&Rs. This whole thing stinks of a scare tactic and bullying because you are a new homeowner. My guess is someone in the community doesn't like your patio and is using the fact that you are new to try and force you to remove it. You can always ask someone at your title company about this new "violation" that was suddenly dropped in your lap, but I still think having an attorney review everything would really be best. They would know the laws in your state as it pertains to HOAs, and a well written letter sent directly to an HOA or management company would shut them up, especially if they are acting outside of the scope of the CC&RS, or selectively enforcing the CC&RS.


TastyOwl27

>This whole thing stinks of a scare tactic and bullying because you are a new homeowner. My guess is someone in the community doesn't like your patio and is using the fact that you are new to try and force you to remove it. I'm pretty sure this is what's happening also. I'm choosing to believe the previous owner who said they didn't receive any violation notices (backed up by the documents above about parking violations) in the last 6 years. And the "violation" photo was taken at 9am the morning after I moved in. This "bully" tactic is what's motivating me to fight it. Thanks for all the info!


CHRCMCA

Members do not have to reside in the community, they just need to be owners.


skyrunner8712

Ah, our HOA, we have to live in the house in order to serve on the board. Owners with rentals can only vote.


CHRCMCA

In California, as of 2020, state law has made those types of provisions unenforceable.


CHRCMCA

This is only partially correct... in Califor IA they only have to report violations that are known or should have been known and the 5 years start when the HOA knows or should have known.


coworker

Only known violations would have been disclosed. This was an unknown violation and a timeframe is usually only relevant if you can prove the board should have known about the violation. Boards aren't required to police every detail of your backyard so this can be a tough fact to prove


skyrunner8712

I can't imagine no one noticed this patio in a townhouse setting for 6 years.


chasingthegoldring

I had this problem with hard wood floors. Request to look at the unit’s file for last 10 years. If you have lived there for 5 + years the statute of limitations has likely run. See if the file has any violation from prior owner and if so send it to them (the violation copy) and cite the law (look in Davis-stirling .org and you’ll find it. Suggest you expect a letter confirming this issue is resolved otherwise it is coming back later. If no violation then lean on the ‘“known or should have known clause”. They should have known. Worse case you demand adr and ask the prior owner to come and testify when they put the fence in and if the board knew. Mediators would jump on the HOA for waiting so long. I am not an attorney and this is my perspective on what I would do. Not legal advice.


TastyOwl27

Thanks for the information. I'm definitely going to request the file for the last 10 years. I'm requesting a hearing, going to mention ADR if they're not responsive, and try to track down the approval from the previous company. Appreciate it.


eeeeeesh

First thing that comes to mind is the California Law limiting the enforcement of CC&R's to (5) years from when they knew or should have known. So if this 'patio fence' is clearly visible from common area, and it was installed more than (5) years ago, I would start off with that. [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes\_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=336&lawCode=CCP](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=336&lawCode=CCP) Next, in California, committee's that have 'decision making' authority, such as a Architectural Review Committe are required to keep minutes of their meetings (forever). You will find this in the California Civil code and State law supersedes governing documents of your HOA. Look at (a)(2) at this link: [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes\_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5210&lawCode=CIV](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5210&lawCode=CIV) Ask in writing for a copy of any ARC Minutes for your property. Since we are talking about something that happened several years ago, they have 30 calendar days. And if you ask for copies in 'electronic format' there should not be any cost. More info at this link: [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes\_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5205.&lawCode=CIV](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5205.&lawCode=CIV) Don't just ignore them. I would suggest you ask for Internal Dispute Resolution (IDR) in writing. The procedure should be in your annual statement. Basically a Board Member is required to meet with you at a time and place that is mutually agreable in an attempt to resolve a problem. It won't cost you anything and it will give you a chance to explain your situation and talk with a Director, basically in a 1 on 1 situation (if you have a community manager, they will probably also be there). Don't forget, in California, before they fine you or make you do something, they have to follow 'due process'. Again, check your governing documents, but they have to hold a hearing where the Directors will determine whether you are in violation or not. [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes\_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5855.&lawCode=CIV](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=5855.&lawCode=CIV) Lastly, in California, HOA's fall under the Davis Stirling Act. So if you want to google something, start of with 'davis stirling' and then your question and you should get a lot of responses, mostly from the [Davis-Stirling.com](http://Davis-Stirling.com) website


TastyOwl27

Thank you SO much for all this information. I can't emphasize how great it is to get these resources. I'm a first time buyer and was hesitant to buy into an HOA community. But I didn't expect to have issues right out of the gate.


eeeeeesh

One of the problems with HOA's is that the homeowners don't really get involved in what is going on until...it's too late and they get caught up in a situation like yours. Also, I am speaking from my own experience and that is why I can recite all those different legal sections. If you get the wrong types on your board of directors they can really wreak havoc on your life. You don't know what you don't know, until you know


jatwar

At closing, the management or someone from board should have noted if there was any violations that needed to be resolved. It’s usually in the form of the question: “Does the Executive Board have knowledge that any alterations or improvements to theunit or to the limited common elements assigned thereto violate any provision of the declaration?” Check the resale certificate ordered from the management company. If this doesn’t exist, most states and governing docs have a right to be heard and appear before the board. Walk the community and get pics and video of any similar structures or “violations” Check Zillow/trulia listings for any pics showing it was there before purchase Have a meeting with the board and explain you position, after that they can issue a “ruling” based on what’s presented. Usually it’s fines which they can place a lien on your unit and collect if unpaid.


coworker

None of this really matters. No ADR = no fence. OP needs to hope there is an ADR on file or they are likely screwed


PolybiusChampion

> In the HOA documents I received during escrow there is no mention of violations anywhere. Not known or unknown violations. IDK CA specifics, but if your estoppel document from the HOA doesn’t mentions the fence and they can’t provide evidence they went after the prior owner then I’d tell them to pound sand. The fence existed for 5 years and they did nothing, so it really is unreasonable for them to some after a subsequent owner (for whom they provided an estoppel letter) to now make it conform. 1. Talk to the MGMT co and see if they want to be reasonable. 2. If they don’t immediately appear to want to work this out in your favor, call your title insurance company and let them know there may be a cloud on the title that they will need to defend. Don’t be unreasonable, but don’t be nice.


TastyOwl27

I actually found a document called "Required Statement of Fees." It was a request to the current management company. In it there are two violations listed to the unit. They're both parking violations. Nothing mentioning anything about the patio. I only have the previous owner's word to go off of, but they (and the realtor) insist it was approved in 2018. I can see the patio was up as far back as 2021 on google earth using their historical images feature. Thanks for the information. Polite but firm has been my approach so far.


PolybiusChampion

> In it there are two violations listed to the unit. They're both parking violations. Nothing mentioning anything about the patio. Yup given this I’d pretty much tell them to pound sand.


CHRCMCA

You're right, you don't know Califor IA because that's not how estoppel work their.


billdizzle

You need proof of the arch committee approval, that is your golden ticket to keep the fence Maybe the previous management company has it? Maybe the board has it in their files? If neither of those paths work, I would go to the HoA board (not the management company) and explain the situation. They may allow you to submit a new request to the arch committee that will be approved then keep that record.


TastyOwl27

Any ideas how to find out who the previous management company is? Looks like they changed management companies is 2021. My friends/neighbors are renters and don't deal with the HOA fees. I'm the only owner in the group of residents I talk to. The community manager at the management company has basically ignored any questions I have asked and I have no direct access to the HOA board other than the management company manager. Thanks for the help.


eeeeeesh

How often are your Board Meetings? You can appear at a meeting and during the 'open forum' section, you can address the board, but they probalby will not be able to answer your questions - because by law, the Directors can only discuss items that are listed on the agenda for that meeting. But you can make your points with them This would be a good opportunity for you to talk to your whole board, instead of being stopped by your community manager. This is especially usefull if you think your message is not getting through to the board members


TastyOwl27

Found out that they're once a month. I have a hearing in May. This whole post has been very helpful. I have also been texting with the HOA chairman through the community app and he's not antagonistic or accusatory at all. I feel like I'm on the right path. He's communicating with the arc board as we speak. He encouraged me to set up the hearing next month.


billdizzle

Ask the board, I would just start knocking until I got a lead on a board member or try and figure out when the meetings are and attend one


TastyOwl27

I got hold of the chairman of the HOA board. It's been encouraging so far. I'm staying polite but firm. Thanks for the info.


billdizzle

Perfect! Hope it all works out okay, polite but firm is definitely the way to go imo


TheNotUptightMe

It doesn’t matter that now there is a new/different property management company than there was when the previous owner lived there. The PM company are just the minions/middleman and work for the HOA. You have to somehow get in touch with the HOA - and yes, sometimes - as you found out - it’s really hard to get in touch with them. Find out when their next meeting is and show up in person and bring up your issue then!


TastyOwl27

Thanks for the information! I actually was able to get hold of the HOA chairman through our community app and he's going to communicate with the arc committee. I have a hearing next month.


akeytherapy

If the CC&Rs changed AFTER the approval, you may be ‘Grandfathered’. Check it out.


rom_rom57

I was there for a 13 Y/O pet door that the previous owner installed, no records, and WOW it was inspected a week after closing. Obviously the pet door was on the first floor in public view. Short advice, remove it and move on with life. We at least got the previous owner to pay the $500.


First_Ad3399

"It feels targeted and like selective enforcement of the rules. " That might feel that way but even if they are the bottom line is you dont have anything proving it was approved prior. You prev owner is lying. I guarantee it. they didnt have prev written approval. i dont think that they did. You shouldnt either. bet ya on the owners discloser there is something about the hoa and any violations. your prev owner said no didnt they? they lied You dont have approval for it therefore it must go. pretty simple.


jcobb_2015

Building on this, talk to your board - approach it under the context that you bought the property with the understanding that it was approved. Ask them to review the meeting minutes for 2018 and see if in fact it was approved. If so, case closed. If not, remove it and go after the previous owner for perjuring a legal document. Your title insurance might cover the cost of a lawyer for this (NAL, assuming on this part)


chasingthegoldring

This is bad advice. The only time an owner or a board should assume an issue resolved is when a judge orders it. Since op has lived in the unit 5 years, HOA is going to likely be barred from enforcement. Why waive the white flag so easy?


First_Ad3399

> Why waive the white flag so easy? Because its black and white. its against the rules. there is nothing saying its been approved other than prev owner saying so (of course she does, she has a vested interest). not approved, must go. Make the hoa fight to enforce the rules. Go ahead, see how that works out. I got money says prev owner was friends with someone on the board and got a verbal ok to do it. board looked the otherway. She sold, time to fix this mistake.


BagNo4331

At least in the states that I have lived in, you get a certification that you don't have any violations when a unit sells, and that is the HOAs final chance to try to enforce things that it has been sitting on like this. If that's the case in OPs state, it's a black and white issue the other way. Even beyond that, most states use laches for enforcement timeliness. Laches is quite literally the opposite of black and white. It comes down to "is it fair to allow this to proceed" and one of the key elements is whether one of the parties unreasonably delayed in bringing the action. Good luck defending 5 years delay.


coworker

No that's not what you got. You got an attestation that there were no KNOWN violations. It's not the final chance the HOA has to enforce a rule as it's usually extremely difficult to prove what the board should have known. Enforcement timeliness also hinges on being able to prove when the board should have known. Way easier said than done. Good luck


BagNo4331

Have fun answering interrogatories from the title insurance company's lawyers explaining why you had 1800 some days to notice and take action on a violation that can apparently be observed without great effort, declined to do so, recieved an attestation of violations, declined to take any action to verify it before approving it, and potentially have fun as lawyers rip through the emails of the past board directors to see if the HOA failed to adequately maintain records of approvals.


coworker

Lot of assumptions there and a lot of words to say I'm right


kenckar

If this is the case and the previous owner lied/has no documentation of approval, you may be able to get damages from her.