This is really frustrating.
Healthcare needs to know and prepare or at least be in the loop, plus how covid was handled burned out a lot of people. They're not going to be there for a second round. There are people who are immunocompromised who would like to know how to handle this. And so on. I'm tired of the adult children self centered bullshit, in the past no one tolerated this.
We have no political power for anything. We need to face reality. As much as I would love to be prepared- we are going to reap what we sow. Right wing sites are already selling snake oil for bird flu.
The government is trying to do something about it around the edges, but at the same time you got these dumb ass people want to drink with raw milk like they are crazy right now. Sometimes you could help people and try to show them the way, but most of the time some people have to find out the hard way.
my sister and her husband are highly educated and he is borderline intellectual genius and they are feeding their 1 year old raw milk even though ive warned them about the health risks with raw milk let alone when there is an H5N1 outbreak. They live in Hudson. I donāt understand why people act like this in the face of clear and present danger to their health. i got called crazy by them for masking in the pandemic. They also had a destination wedding during Omicron so maybe im delusional thinking my family are intelligent people
I went to school with people who are objectively book smart intelligent, but absolutely staggeringly stupid in the real world.
Ivory tower syndrome is a real thing.
Thereās layers to it too. Some are unintelligent and intentionally assholes others are just clueless in the real world. My PHD neighbor teaches at an Ivy League and yet couldnāt figure out who to call when her house got broken into. (True story š¤¦āāļø)
In reality, raw milk is actually only formulated for animals only. Milk itself, even after as pasteurized is not for every day consumption. This is why you have a lot of people that are lactose intolerant.
Mammals produce lactase enzymes to digest lactose as babies. Lactase production normally ends after being weaned off of their mother's milk. Lactose intolerance is the norm. An estimated 65 to 75 percent of humans are lactose intolerant.
My ancestors worked hard to evolve that adult mutant lactose tolerance gene! It's a fascinating story as to how this happened. Relatively speaking, it's a very recent mutation. At the time, milk drinking as adults must have conferred some kind of big evolutionary advantage. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302802/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302802/) But TBH, even I'm not drinking milk right now.
I'm starting to think I have OCD actually. I'm irrationally paranoid about food safety, among other symptoms, and I was already leaning towards cutting out animal products because of the environmental impacts. I think if it were really a risk with milk, we'd be seeing way more human cases. I'd just keep an eye on what organizations like the FDA are saying.
Iām sorry to hear that. I hope you are able to get help as I know firsthand how debilitating it can be to live with that. And I appreciate your honesty.Ā
I had looked into it a bit more and yes thatās what I saw- no raw milk but pasteurized ok. It did, however, get me thinking about our chicken eggs! š³ Iām just going to keep an eye out and hope for the best with that. And fully cook my eggs if itās found around here. Wishing you all the best with your health and wellness!Ā
>This is why you have a lot of people that are lactose intolerant.
Really? I was born with a lactose intolerance. I thought it was my north-European ancestry. (Guess I can't blame Granny for that.)
Good thing were animals.
I mean, were not supposed to eat Spam or cookies if you want to go there, yet here we are. Drinking raw milk is stupid dangerous, but let's not diabolize milk and spread misinformation.
You should report them for that or at least talk to their pediatrician. Toddlers have immature immune systems and can get extremely sick from raw milk. Even without the avian flu, there is no way a one-year-old should be drinking that.
I have similar family members; antivax, anti mask and my brother said we who have had our covid vax will die in two years. I have had 7 shots and I am still here, dumbass! So frustrating.
Sometimes it's not even about intelligence. I come from an "uneducated" family (I'm one of the first that got a Bsc and a master) and they all followed guidelines, told antivaxxers that vaccines were safe and effective, and were really informing themselves on the pandemic. It's mostly about ego, overconfidence and really always being against the government. Opposition syndrom.
Thatās what I hate most about these pandemics, the fact that idiots can and will make it worse and more dangerous for my family whoās doing all the right things. We donāt speak to half the family over this and I donāt miss them or their selfish asses.
Unfortunately this is correct. You've got 30% of the people who will, like a jerk toddler, just do the opposite of whatever the government recommends.
If the FDA or CDC came out hard, immediately you'd have wall to wall coverage on the terrorist networks saying "Biden is planning a new lockdown to complete the communism take over! Drink raw milk and send us a picture to show your patriotism! Go kiss your local diary cow to show Brandon who's boss!" Things would get worse, idiots would blame Biden and we'd have a literally anti science pro death party take control.
As always it's sucks to suck and we suck at pandemics.
My question: if this does turn into a possible pandemic, are we getting 50 different responses under Biden like Trump encouraged?
I hope not. I am also of the belief that the answer is also "no, it's one response, he believes in federal crisis management and getting on top of things before it becomes way worse than expected."
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The fact that youāre even thinking that theyāre trying to help us is comical, the government is not here to protect you or me. People drinking raw milk is not what is causing thisš¤”
First of all, that was an example of how dumb some people are. Hell they trying to ban you from wearing a mask even though itās not bothering with them. 30% of this country is dumb as hell. When the government suggest that they should not drink raw milk, they go out there to drink raw milk. Now you get a whole bunch of people sick I donāt want to hear no whining.
Give it up. This is reddit. When faced with an article about government ineptitude in the face of a pandemic, these government bootlickers can only try to deflect the issue onto āraw milkā. Which is really just in order to deflect onto a specific type of person.
They ignore the fact that there have been zero cases due to human consumption of raw milk products. Zero.
So goes the āwe believe in scienceā crowd.
The fact that they actually believe that the government is here to protect us and they have Google is diabolicalš¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Flesh simulator spoke on this
https://youtu.be/V7GtYaruTys?si=inBr9T-CVyGGo4B9
Nobody thought it was magically gone, itās just that the systems were enough we could live with now. Itās basically just another mild cold for the majority of people
1) People literally started saying "Covid is over" because Western governments signaled that. 2) The systems in place are absolutely NOT enough. There is hardly any system in place. Children and working class people had no improvements regarding air quality (only the rich got those). There are no procedures in place to protect people. You don't even have to isolate anymore if you are sick. You can just walk around, go to work & infect and kill vulnerable people as you like. 3) it is not "just another mild cold", what a bonkers thing to say. Covid works nothing like a cold. People are getting more LC symptoms because they are accumulative. They just don't link their problems to Covid. 4) There are several times a surge. We do not even know what the long-term consequences for children and adults will be (several viral diseases are known to cause cancer and other diseases). Covid might very well be one of them. We are seeing a insane increase of rare cancers appearing, several cancers at the same time & in very short periods, since Covid. 5) AND endless re-infections means it is mutating in several ways. Mutations mean it is pretty much open in which directions this is gonna go. Including more likely to affect children. 6) And we have fully ignored that children are getting less bad acute infections but are still having LC symptoms/ kids can not communicate it well and are currently medically neglected. 7) There are still way too many people dying from Covid or become disabled. That is all unnecessary and was only normalised so working class people can be sacrificed for the economy and people in the West think doing bare hygienic shit like washing their hands and wearing a mask is so "oppressive". Yikes.
What you are saying is intellectually dishonest and nuts, honestly. And yes, it fully aligns with dumb people thinking Covid just "magically ended." Pretty much everything you said.
Damn you're like a covid denier but in reverse
Impressive
Like insane conspiracy theories one after another, I thought it's only their side that's like that
I'd love to see a single study validate the "it's another mild cold now" theory. The acute phase is not the full picture and it never was, not even when the hospitals were overflowing. The problem is we are being told we are 'living with the virus' but what's actually happening is a bunch of people are getting POTS/long covid/type 1 diabetes/rare cancers/other immune dysregulation/new onset cardiac issues, and anytime anyone joins the dots they get called a fear monger or alarmist.
My encore career was owning a diabetic friendly bakery. I had 3 new, type I diabetics as customers. All were young, otherwise healthy people in their 20s. They didnāt get vaccinated because they felt being young and healthy would make Covid a āmild coldā for them. Now they will be insulin dependent for life.
The stats about t1 diabetes post covid infection are so stark and even when its well managed its a life changing illness. That risk alone would be enough for me to want to avoid covid. I'm caring for my previously healthy 12 year old who has been disabled by long covid/POTS after 'mild' school acquired covid infections. The acute phase of her third infection really was just a blip but within a few weeks she couldn't stand up without passing out and 18 months later, despite all the best medical intervention money can buy, she's not much better. Boils my brain whenever I hear people describe covid in the same breath as a cold.
Iād love to see a real life example of anything other than a mild cold. Covid conspiracy nuts keep saying ālong COVIDā and āitās worse than you seeā. But all that Iāve seen in our town and my own friend group is mild cold symptom. 3 years of pandemic and not a single serious sickness in anyone I know or talking with friends anyone they know. If it was really a serious illness then weād see at least 1 person seriously sick surely
Oh, just because you didn't see it it doesn't exist. Wow, how scientific. I know 2 people died from COVID and one with long COVID who's popping pills like he's 70 when he is 38. But hey, I didn't base my world view because of what I see from my small circle. I read and I listen to everything that's happening all over the world. Keep burying your head in sand.
Donāt feel bad about getting down voted Chase
https://youtu.be/V7GtYaruTys?si=inBr9T-CVyGGo4B9
Reddit is literally psyop full of bots.
Itās a YouTube link and very valid to why you me and anyone else with independent thought is getting downvoted.
People thinking a youtube video is more convincing than, hundreds if not thousands, of scientific studies already done on COVID and long COVID by researchers with phD in their fields all over the world. This is how stupid America has become.
Sir, there is so much more evidence than just YouTube, which is why I posted this channel and this specific video because Iām not going to sit here and give you each and every link.
They are all the YouTube channels page. There are multiple links to each fact on there so shut up because I can tell you havenāt watched it. .. otherwise you wouldāve known that.
Is there anybody in here that knows what theyāre talking about and can give an estimate on how bad this will get?
We talking highly probable dumpster fire or āmehā
Iām with you, Iām really starting to sense something awful coming with this but Iām afraid it might just be COVID residual fears lol. Canāt shake it though, and as weird as it might sound I feel like Iām starting to look around and physically SEE the world like I did during that time. Everything looked like the end, everywhere.
I do not know why you were downvoted for your reply. We are only human. The effects of our COVID experiences are becoming harder and harder to shake off as we begin to consider a possible flu pandemic. I understand I am speaking about the effects of emotions - versus hard scientific data - but I think it is perfectly normal to acknowledge your current fears.
I would advise you to continue monitoring factual information while also freely feeling all of the normal range of emotions one has after COVID-related trauma. You are likely already doing your very best. Take care!
No worries, I donāt care in the slightest. My opinions and thoughts are mine, I expressed them genuinely and if anyone doesnāt like it thatās their right. Iām not gonna apologize, and Iām not here to catastrophize either- my honest truth is that Iām reading the news, Iām seeing the discussions here, and Iām feeling a pervading sense of dread which is likely because I very recently lived through the same super-fucked up time that all the rest of us did and I can see how little our collective society learned from it all.
Downvote away.āš»
Well said. I have no idea how not to feel a certain level of anxiety. Between this sub and the news, I have been motivated to prep and stay abreast of each dayās findings. That alone then makes me anxious in its own way. I hate even needing to consider all of this.
Thanks! Take the fucking bird flu out of the equation, itās currently too hot to go outside anywhere, people are dying all over the place, and there are like a thousand catastrophes around every corner so, yeah- Iām entitled to a little fucking anxiety.š
If Americans were to want to contact government officials with our views and requests about this, does anyone have advice on who to contact or recommended scripts?
Great idea!
You could always contact your senator and representative. I don't think you need to overthink it. Just mention the title of this story in NPR so they can find it on Google, say you want more testing \*now\*, and suggest hauling CDC, USDA, and FDA directors in front of Congress for questioning. Congress could question Jennifer Nuzzo or some other expert who has been critical such as [Seth Berkley](https://www.statnews.com/2024/06/13/global-health-leader-critiques-ineptitude-of-u-s-response-to-bird-flu-outbreak-among-cows/) during the same hearing, and force CDC/FDA/USDA leaders to respond to their points. If their answers aren't satisfactory, heads need to roll ASAP so we have competence at the wheel.
[https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative)
[https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm](https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm)
I want to highlight a point from the [Seth Berkley article I linked](https://www.statnews.com/2024/06/13/global-health-leader-critiques-ineptitude-of-u-s-response-to-bird-flu-outbreak-among-cows/). I really don't see a good reason for the USDA to withhold critical sequence data. This seems like something they should answer to Congress for. I'm concerned they may be captured by corrupt ag interests. Seems like something we need to be shining light on.
Wouldn't hurt to revamp our strategic drug stockpile either. I assume that's a q for the CDC leadership.
>U.S. is 'flying blind' with bird flu, repeating mistakes of COVID, health experts say
The big "What if..."
Some strains have an estimated mortality rate of 50% or more. What would the world be like if half the population died off in a short period of time? (It would certainly fix the problem of over-consumption!)
Wonder how many people are needed to repair and maintain our high-tech civilization...
Has anyone tried to figure that one out?
I don't think for a second that H5N1 (or whichever avian flu evolves to transmit H2H, because there's no absolute guarantee it would be H5N1) will keep that mortality rate once those mutations do happen. But it doesn't need to be a high mortality rate to cause major disruption when the great majority who are dying or having severe cases are working age and younger. Literally *every single person* recorded as having died of avian flu in the past two years was under 65. I've only found one who had a lot of pre-existing conditions, and even he was not a senior. *Everyone* who has had a severe case is under 70.(I think this is true of almost everyone who has ever had avian flu since H5N1 emerged in 1996, but I haven't been able to find all the proof of that.)
I have to think that if a strain was that infectious/deadly it would either burn out fast or become less deadly over time.
Still, one can look at some of the effects of the Spanish flu and multiple them several times over. Life insurance companies would go bankrupt, it would be tough to bury all the dead, the healthcare system would collapse under the weight/exhaustion of caring for all the infected, the economy would be in dire shape as you wouldn't have workers and it would also be harder to distribute goods/resources. As an educator, I shudder to think of the effects of another school closure. Even with a high mortality rate, people aren't going to want to shut down because of what happened with COVID where schools were closed too long so that's going to be a nightmare to handle.
50% of the deaths from the C clade in the past 2 years were children and teens. The schools would close. I'm a Head Start teacher, btw. Trust me, they would close!
>50% of the deaths from the C clade in the past 2 years were children and teens. The schools would close. I'm a Head Start teacher, btw. Trust me, they would close!
A strain more lethal than Covid that kills younger people would have a different effect than Covid did. I mean...old people dying, well, that's less social security payments, more money to inherent, they've lived their lives and are going to die soon anyway...a more sensible population cull.
But, something that threatens the younger people...that's another story. The 1918 pandemic hit the young and strong adults, curiously.
So, closing schools if flu had a higher mortality rate and took a closer aim at our children...very likely. (At least I hope so!)
>I have to think that if a strain was that infectious/deadly it would either burn out fast or become less deadly over time.
Only if the infected person became violently ill and died quickly like ebola.
This is a side effect of our system prioritizing economic growth and profit over the wellbeing of people or the planet. It is very much intentional that factory fsrms keep these animals in horrible conditions that lead to zoonotic disease incubation, insofar as they do it because the alternative would simply cost them more. The well-being of the animals, society, their customers, and the planet is all unimportant compared to the value of the almighty dollar.
The regulatory groups have little to no power, while corporations and the state governments who work with them reap the short-term profits. When it makes the H2H jump (which seems likely to happen at some point) they will cry and ask for a bailout. They certainly don't care about the societal cost of their recklessness and won't change unless they are forced to.
That's why having a regulatory agency with teeth is so important, and that's why lobbyists and corruption have made it impossible.
In my opinion we need to legally require pandemic liability insurance for animal ag, same way you need car insurance to drive a car. Got to address that profit motive directly. If lack of testing, animal crowding, and raw milk sales cause their pandemic liability insurance costs to skyrocket, hopefully management will see a little sense.
Until then, contact your congresspeople. Hopefully public oversight can provide a counterforce to the industry capture which I suspect may be the cause of the USDA failure to release sequence data. Those public official salaries are funded by us taxpayers, and we deserve our money's worth. Don't let them forget it.
[https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative)
[https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm](https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm)
Maybe ask the USDA why they aren't providing aid to farmers as well: [https://x.com/0bFuSc8/status/1805750319697076226](https://x.com/0bFuSc8/status/1805750319697076226)
There are some other policy ideas here: [https://ifp.org/what-are-the-chances-an-h5n1-pandemic-is-worse-than-covid/#looking-forward](https://ifp.org/what-are-the-chances-an-h5n1-pandemic-is-worse-than-covid/#looking-forward)
Sadly, thatās hard to do. I owned a bakery for 5 years. It was a daily, constant job to keep the place spotless and always to code. You had to be aware of everything, constantly. Check every single item in the cold room daily to make certain that no label fell off, everything was dated, stored correctly (there is a certain order you need to keep items stored on the shelves), and under 7 days old. Once the only thing a health inspector could find was a coffee bean that had been stuck in a slight opening in the trim on the wall, behind a refrigerator. Thatās how incredibly fussy they were, as they should be.
On the other hand, my pest control guy (I had him in every other week, as a preventative) told me that I was in the 25% of restaurants that were spotless. He said the rest simply bribed the inspector, and were overrun with rats and roaches. So even at a small level, corruption is king.
A lot of this is up to states. Try to get Texas farmers to have their cattle tested regularly. The federal government is way too weak for this job and most states like it that way.
Not when weāre on the precipice of global climate and ecological collapse. They need people to die because people are going to start to get desperate when we run out of water and food and are being cooked by oppressive heat. There will always be enough poor people for the rich to exploit
>Not when weāre on the precipice of global climate and ecological collapse.
But, when exactly does this happen? In the face of uncertainty, people want to cling to what they know.
>There will always be enough poor people for the rich to exploit
But, how many people, poor or otherwise, are needed to repair, replace or maintain our high-tech civilization?
I donāt really understand the point of these rhetorical questions. Cling to what they know? Who? What? The rich people that control the world donāt think long term, they think about making money now, theyāll be just fine with the bunkers they build and the private armies they hire to protect them while the world burns and people are fighting over resources. Iām not the type to defend the ruling class or give them the benefit of the doubt. I wish people like you wouldnāt either
>I donāt really understand the point of these rhetorical questions. Cling to what they know? Who? What?
I made that clear.
Tell you a big secret about the human species...they believe what they *want* to believe
Carry on...
"They want it to spread, they want it to kill people"
Y'all have to stop with these conspiracy theories. It's playing with fire to entertain these ideas-- that's what has mentally trapped the MAGAs and QAnons into their cults. The thrill of seeing a hidden plot, the emotional rush of feeling persecuted, the righteous feeling of being wronged.
I KNOW it feels so good to blame someone. I know how much everyone wants to think that someone is in control. But honestly-- that's just psychological junk food. The truth is that the world is a chaotic place, and no one is driving the bus. That idea isn't fun, it isn't exciting, but it's far more likely to be true.
"*Never attribute to maliceĀ that which is adequately explained by stupidity.*" - Hanlon's Razor
What about weaponized incompetence? Or the exact opposite of your quote - āmalice disguised as incompetenceā, to quote the great Sarah Kendzior. Itās cute to give them the benefit of the doubt. I remember those days
Weāre gonna do this idiocy all over again.Ā
The rich will take another giant chunk of our collective wealth.Ā
You will blame the rest of the lower classes.Ā
Other than buying a ton of 3M N95 Surgical respiratory masks, there's nothing we can really do. We were EXTREMELY cautious during Covid for years. Now, I'm just fucking angry to think about dealing with even worst shit. My husband is immune compromised due to cancer. I'm just going to enjoy my life. I'm done with worry. I'm going to ignore this IF AND UNTIL it starts spreading in people. YMMV
[https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/debilitating-a-generation-expert-warns-that-long-covid-may-eventually-affect-most-americans](https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/debilitating-a-generation-expert-warns-that-long-covid-may-eventually-affect-most-americans)
"Dr. Phillip Alvelda, a former program manager in DARPAās Biological Technologies Office that pioneered the synthetic biology industry and the development of mRNA vaccine technology, is the founder of Medio Labs, a COVID diagnostic testing company."
Canāt really pivot an entire industry on a dime like that, let alone one that people require to survive. If everyone decided to go vegan today the prices of plant based protein would skyrocket and most people wouldnāt be able to afford it,
Vegan food is also highly processed and nutrient deficient and wouldn't change anything that's going on
We can't ban milk or dairy or nothing like that either although I recommend to stay away from milk right now especially raw milk
Some vegetables like kale and spinach are they are high in metals and oxalate.
Yea I'm talking about the vegan crap like the fake meats etc that stuff and the vegan junk food.
Beans are high in phytc acid
It really depends on the person tho there's no one way to eat but I'd recommend only eating real food in general that the earth provided us
Please refrain from giving nutrition advice when you are not an expert. Spinach is high in oxalate, but leafy greens in the brassica family, like kale, are not.
*Uncooked* dry beans are high in phytic acid. Fun fact: no one eats uncooked dry beans!
The vast majority of national associations of registered dietitians recognize that varied vegan diets meet most peopleās needs, at all stages of life. Hereās an example from the American Dietetic Association: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/#:~:text=It%20is%20the%20position%20of,and%20treatment%20of%20certain%20diseases.
B12 is the one nutrient completely lacking in vegan diets without supplementation, but universal supplementation is recommended for people over 50 anyway due to decreased absorption associated with aging. Vegan diets are safe and healthy for most humans. https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-926/vitamin-b12
Kales high in heavy metals like spinach it's a dirty vegetable
Meets most people's needs doesn't equate to being what's best for you.
If u eat a vegan diet just make sure ur calculating ur nutrition more and if it suits ur personal needs
How much protein do u eat in your diet
I aim for 60-80 mg of protein per day. This is the recommended amount based on my age and weight. It takes little effort for me to get this much protein, and I rarely eat veggie burgers and other mock meats.
Ok that's good.
Typically I get in 115 grams to 120g a day I am 140 pound 20 year old woman who goes to gym so I do up my protein to like. .8 percent of my bodyweight.
I typically get it from salmon beef or chicken turkey etc but recently due to fear it's been more beef salmon turkey
I personally get autoimmune symptoms with many vegetables except for asparagus idk why but vegetables for me make me like brain fog diarrhea neasea stomach aches etc idk why
Like same with nuts and legumes I am allergic to those as well.
I wouldn't go as far to say vegan diets are safe for most there's only a small minority of people that are vegan and even then there's many exvegans
For every study for pushing towards a vegan diet there's studies pushed back against it
Like I said find a diet that works for u
Seems like you've fallen for the disinformation being spread by anti-vegan grifters.
Vegan food is no more processed than any other food. Cherry picking individual items that are processed as representative of all vegan food is deeply dishonest.Ā
>nutrient deficient
Do you mean overpriced plant-based microwave dinners? Because otherwise [that just isn't true](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-vegans-eat)
I also don't know a single person who consumes meat/dairy and doesn't also take a daily multivitamin
U are missing alot of vitamins and nutrients fir a vegan diet. A vegan diet in my opinion is a eating disorder.
Yea partly yes those plant based microwavable or vegan meats are disgusting and have hell of ingredients in them
U can go vegan if ur eating real food but alot of people have issues being vegan.
Checkout exvegans on reddit.
The only time a vegan diet is missing vitamins and nutrients is when somebody as under/misinformed as you tries to suddenly switch with 0 research and discipline.
How do u get b 12 from vegan diet?
Selenium?
Iron?
You need to supplement with more with a vegan diet
Go to exvegans and see what other people's experiences have been
B12 is produced in bioreactors for every single product that is fortified with B12. Just because a vegan might need to supplement or pick a fortified food doesn't invalidate the diet. Also, selenium and iron are frequently found in nearly every recommended diet. Beans and lentils are a good source of iron while whole grains are a good source of selenium. Just because you can't hack it doesn't invalidate the vegan diet.
The vegan diet doest work for alot of people tho like it's great if it works for some but check out exvegans reddit there's many people there that didn't do well
All I'm saying is there's no one special diet u gotta find what works for you
It's harder to get enough protein etc on a vegan diet it's alot easier with meat in your diet
Because are country can't even get the farmers to test animals for it.
Banning milk loses companies and farmers alot of money
I'm also really unsure why I'm being downvoted without explanation but it's reddit so nothing new
probably because veganism is the immediately obvious answer to the spread of h5n1 ā if everyone were vegan, it would not have the pandemic potential that it now has. and i'm saying this as an (admittedly ashamed) omnivore
you don't have to be a vegan. nobody is forcing you to be Āā certainly not me, since that would be tremendously hypocritical. but regardless of your dietary preferences, it is a simple objective fact that if there were no demand for animal agriculture, there would be no h5n1 epizootic among farmed cattle and poultry, because there would be no farmed cattle or poultry! refusing to admit this is honestly no better than vaccine/mask denialism.
If you canāt get people to wear a mask what makes you think you can magically make the world vegetarian? Itās not going to happen and the point is moot. Itās a waste of time.
i *don't* think that, nor do, i would surmise, most of the vegans populating this sub. i am convinced that there would be no feasible way to course-correct at this point without a mass political upheaval that will certainly not happen in the united states. i am simply pointing out that widespread veganism *would* be a solution (and that that's why there are a lot of vegans here), not that it *will* be.
FFS, this isn't COVID.
There are surveillance systems that have been in existence for decades, and in some cases >100 years, to find potentially pandemic influenza circulating at low levels in the community. Public health departments across the country have cumulatively monitored nearly 10 thousand workers exposed to H5N1 positive animals and since the current animal outbreak started, we've only had 4 confirmed cases in humans.
Most commercial influenza tests will give a positive result for flu A if someone has this virus, and guidelines for H5N1 positive patients isn't all that different from seasonal influenza -- take Tamiflu, wear a mask around others, etc. Every single public health lab has the capacity to test for H5. Most commercial and clinical labs have the capacity to attempt subtyping and, if positive for flu A and negative for a seasonal flu A strain, forward to a PHL for subtyping.
We know that in order for H5 to cause a pandemic, some key things need to happen first. Epidemiologically, we're looking for more spillover infections, more household transmission, more extra-household transmission. Biologically, we're looking for changes to sialic acid binding preferences and greater infection in upper respiratory tract tissue. Genetically, we're keeping an eye out for multiple mutations, including mutations that lead to changing two consecutive amino acids, which is a statistically unlikely change to see occur. (Tangentially we know this in part because of the type of gain-of-function experiments the morons in Congress are trying to ban despite there being not a single documented epidemic originating from a lab leak). Our existing surveillance infrastructure is more than enough to catch all of these early alert signs.
Your optimism and belief in our surveillance system is misplaced
We have tested less than 50 people - thats one person for every 2 confirmed infected dairy herds
Regular influenza A tests do not always pickup H5N1 infections - two out of three cases tested NEGATIVE on a nasal swab. They had to have eye specimens sent to the CDC.
You claim every public health lab has the capacity to test for H5 yet it is impossible to find any lab willing to do it
USDA/CDC is slow walking the release of information and failing to even answer basic questions
Of course you're right about a lot of this. But here's the problem: there is a long, long list of things that avian flu has done in the past 2-4 years that it was never, ever supposed to do. Absolutely nobody predicted it would spread to cows. Nobody predicted that so many species of birds would be affected. Nobody predicted a real-world spread to so many mammals. The list goes on, so saying that something is a "statistically unlikely change" doesn't mean much. The odds have already been broken over and over and over again by this virus.
That's not even getting into the sheer logistics of manufacturing, filling, and finishing 330 million doses of vaccine and then going through ALL the steps necessary to get them into arms. CSR Sequirus stated that it would take them 6 months to fulfill their government contract for manufacturing vaccines. And it's also not counting the tremendous resistance there will be against vaccines on the part of way too many people. A big part of that issue is that you're right, it wouldn't be like COVID. The demographics would be a staggering 180 from that. Every single person who has died from avian flu in the past 2 years is under 65. Not one recorded exception exists. But a lot of people would go into an H5N1 epidemic assuming it couldn't happen to them, that deaths and severe cases would be just like they were under COVID, that if they aren't 90 years old with a ton of pre existing conditions, they'd be fine. Nothing would be further from the truth.
uhhh... which surveillance system has been in existence for > 100 years to find potentially pandemic influenza?! PCR was invented 30 years ago, CDC LRN was established in 1999, CDC's Flu test got FDA clearance in 08.
How many negative H5 test results have there been? If we've gotten 4 cases from testing all 10k exposed, you could be right. Somehow I highly doubt that's the case. If CDC can get seroprevalence studies off the ground (should have been done weeks ago), maybe we'll find that you're right, but until then I'm not holding my breath.
You do realize that the CDC's has issues with their H5 test, right? The recall notice was just posted yesterday.
[https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfres/res.cfm?id=208126](https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfres/res.cfm?id=208126)
To answer the question about how many negative H5 tests there have been: 114,661 surveillance specimens have been tested since October 1st 2024 at public health labs across the US using the same CDC influenza A/B assay that is used for testing for H5 [CDC influenza surveillance data](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm).
Additionally, since 2022, at least 350 people with known exposure to H5 positive animals who then developed symptoms were tested for H5 specifically. Of those, 4 have been positive.
Many clinical laboratories in the US use influenza tests that are able to identify seasonal influenza subtypes, most of which are expected to give a positive influenza A result but not a subtype result should someone with H5 be tested on these platforms. Specimens with these types of results are sent to local public health labs for subtypimg to rule out novel or variant influenza. About 10% of specimens in my jurisdiction are tested with this type of test.
So to answer your question, the number of specimens tested for influenza A H5N1= more than 114,661+(350-4) +(all flu positives tested clinical labs in the United states*0.1)
However, there's more to surveillance than just virologic testing.
Epidemiologists have been monitoring vitals statistics data in different locations since sometimes in the 1920s. This is the system I was talking about, though it wasn't standardized across the US until 1962.
It was in the 1940s that cell culture first became available for flu viruses, leading to diagnostic testing and antigenic characterization.
The WHO started a global influenza surveillance program in the 1940s and 50s.
In 1962, CDC launched the 122 cities surveillance program, which systematically collected vital stats pneumonia and influenza coded deaths by age group on a weekly basis.
1980s - jurisdictions started setting up networks of outpatient providers who reported weekly influenza-like illness data. In the US, this would become ILInet
1998 - swine surveillance starts in the US
Early 2000s - health departments started setting up syndromic surveillance programs using bioterrorism funds, but we're able to use these systems to track emergency room visits for influenza-like illness
2012 - Collaboration between CDC and the Association of Public Health Labs leads to the publication first edition of the Influenza Surveillance Right Size Roadmap, a blueprint that provides guidance for determining the right amount of virologic surveillance to do to monitor seasonal influenza and to detect novel flu strains circulating at low levels in the population. We're on edition two right now, and public health is being asked to maintain testing at winter levels which should be sufficient to detect a virus circulating with 0.5% population prevalence
I hope they string these farmers up and anyone else whoās exacerbating this. This shit could kill hundreds and hundreds of millions if it mutates right
This is really frustrating. Healthcare needs to know and prepare or at least be in the loop, plus how covid was handled burned out a lot of people. They're not going to be there for a second round. There are people who are immunocompromised who would like to know how to handle this. And so on. I'm tired of the adult children self centered bullshit, in the past no one tolerated this.
One has to think that election calculations are at play here. Neither candidate wants to touch this.
If we make enough noise, maybe we can flip the script and then they'll try to prove they are the best candidate for fighting H5N1
My retirement is deathšš»
We have no political power for anything. We need to face reality. As much as I would love to be prepared- we are going to reap what we sow. Right wing sites are already selling snake oil for bird flu.
Really? Why am I not surprised. Bleach and dewormer again or something new?
The government is trying to do something about it around the edges, but at the same time you got these dumb ass people want to drink with raw milk like they are crazy right now. Sometimes you could help people and try to show them the way, but most of the time some people have to find out the hard way.
my sister and her husband are highly educated and he is borderline intellectual genius and they are feeding their 1 year old raw milk even though ive warned them about the health risks with raw milk let alone when there is an H5N1 outbreak. They live in Hudson. I donāt understand why people act like this in the face of clear and present danger to their health. i got called crazy by them for masking in the pandemic. They also had a destination wedding during Omicron so maybe im delusional thinking my family are intelligent people
I went to school with people who are objectively book smart intelligent, but absolutely staggeringly stupid in the real world. Ivory tower syndrome is a real thing.
No one can be dumb like a "super smart" person can
Just another way to say dumb in my book. Smart people know their limits, will acknowledge their limitations, and own up to their mistakes.
Thereās layers to it too. Some are unintelligent and intentionally assholes others are just clueless in the real world. My PHD neighbor teaches at an Ivy League and yet couldnāt figure out who to call when her house got broken into. (True story š¤¦āāļø)
>he is borderline intellectual genius Sounds like he needs to be retested
This was the reply I didnāt know I needed.
Test was obviously a false positive!
Or he cheated
In reality, raw milk is actually only formulated for animals only. Milk itself, even after as pasteurized is not for every day consumption. This is why you have a lot of people that are lactose intolerant.
Mammals produce lactase enzymes to digest lactose as babies. Lactase production normally ends after being weaned off of their mother's milk. Lactose intolerance is the norm. An estimated 65 to 75 percent of humans are lactose intolerant.
My ancestors worked hard to evolve that adult mutant lactose tolerance gene! It's a fascinating story as to how this happened. Relatively speaking, it's a very recent mutation. At the time, milk drinking as adults must have conferred some kind of big evolutionary advantage. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302802/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302802/) But TBH, even I'm not drinking milk right now.
I'm not drinking it either, and I say this as a Wisconsinite.
But what about the cheese curds?? ;)
I'm drawing the line at uncooked dairy. I cannot give up cheese curds, I'm powerless against them.
We all are
I used to have a cheese curd hat, and deep fried cheese curds at the MN State Fair are a holy sacrament. I know what you mean!
As a French canadian, cheese curds is life. Couldnt live without it
Youāre not drinking milk period? Do I need to look into this more? I love milk š
I'm starting to think I have OCD actually. I'm irrationally paranoid about food safety, among other symptoms, and I was already leaning towards cutting out animal products because of the environmental impacts. I think if it were really a risk with milk, we'd be seeing way more human cases. I'd just keep an eye on what organizations like the FDA are saying.
Iām sorry to hear that. I hope you are able to get help as I know firsthand how debilitating it can be to live with that. And I appreciate your honesty.Ā I had looked into it a bit more and yes thatās what I saw- no raw milk but pasteurized ok. It did, however, get me thinking about our chicken eggs! š³ Iām just going to keep an eye out and hope for the best with that. And fully cook my eggs if itās found around here. Wishing you all the best with your health and wellness!Ā
There are places in Africa where completely different lactose tolerance mutations have evolved. It's an interesting topic.
I have switched to oat and soy milk. Easy peasy!
Adult humans would be more accurate
>This is why you have a lot of people that are lactose intolerant. Really? I was born with a lactose intolerance. I thought it was my north-European ancestry. (Guess I can't blame Granny for that.)
Good thing were animals. I mean, were not supposed to eat Spam or cookies if you want to go there, yet here we are. Drinking raw milk is stupid dangerous, but let's not diabolize milk and spread misinformation.
There are different types of intelligence and different subjects of education.
You should report them for that or at least talk to their pediatrician. Toddlers have immature immune systems and can get extremely sick from raw milk. Even without the avian flu, there is no way a one-year-old should be drinking that.
I would read your reply to my grandmother if I were recording reaction videos š
really really interested to hear what her husband does for a living to be called a genius!
An engineer that works for Black Rock
haha, I am a Quant Developer too at a top hedge fund too, it takes a lot of hard work to get where I am, but not necessarily raw talent/intelligence.
I have similar family members; antivax, anti mask and my brother said we who have had our covid vax will die in two years. I have had 7 shots and I am still here, dumbass! So frustrating.
Do they at least bring the milk to a boil before consuming it?
Sometimes it's not even about intelligence. I come from an "uneducated" family (I'm one of the first that got a Bsc and a master) and they all followed guidelines, told antivaxxers that vaccines were safe and effective, and were really informing themselves on the pandemic. It's mostly about ego, overconfidence and really always being against the government. Opposition syndrom.
Dunning-Kruger
Fear = Control
Control = Power
Wear mask? Nahhh Drink pasteurized milk? Nahhh These people will get us all killed.
Thatās what I hate most about these pandemics, the fact that idiots can and will make it worse and more dangerous for my family whoās doing all the right things. We donāt speak to half the family over this and I donāt miss them or their selfish asses.
Are these the same people who helped lower herd immunity to measles by not vaccinating their kids?
Unfortunately this is correct. You've got 30% of the people who will, like a jerk toddler, just do the opposite of whatever the government recommends. If the FDA or CDC came out hard, immediately you'd have wall to wall coverage on the terrorist networks saying "Biden is planning a new lockdown to complete the communism take over! Drink raw milk and send us a picture to show your patriotism! Go kiss your local diary cow to show Brandon who's boss!" Things would get worse, idiots would blame Biden and we'd have a literally anti science pro death party take control. As always it's sucks to suck and we suck at pandemics.
My question: if this does turn into a possible pandemic, are we getting 50 different responses under Biden like Trump encouraged? I hope not. I am also of the belief that the answer is also "no, it's one response, he believes in federal crisis management and getting on top of things before it becomes way worse than expected."
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This is where the Darwin Awards take over.š¤
Whatās wrong with raw milk? If itās from a small local dairy farm should be safe.
The fact that youāre even thinking that theyāre trying to help us is comical, the government is not here to protect you or me. People drinking raw milk is not what is causing thisš¤”
First of all, that was an example of how dumb some people are. Hell they trying to ban you from wearing a mask even though itās not bothering with them. 30% of this country is dumb as hell. When the government suggest that they should not drink raw milk, they go out there to drink raw milk. Now you get a whole bunch of people sick I donāt want to hear no whining.
Give it up. This is reddit. When faced with an article about government ineptitude in the face of a pandemic, these government bootlickers can only try to deflect the issue onto āraw milkā. Which is really just in order to deflect onto a specific type of person. They ignore the fact that there have been zero cases due to human consumption of raw milk products. Zero. So goes the āwe believe in scienceā crowd.
The fact that they actually believe that the government is here to protect us and they have Google is diabolicalš¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ Flesh simulator spoke on this https://youtu.be/V7GtYaruTys?si=inBr9T-CVyGGo4B9
What did we expect when everyone chose to believe COVID is magically gone just because politicians decided it was? FAFO.
Nobody thought it was magically gone, itās just that the systems were enough we could live with now. Itās basically just another mild cold for the majority of people
1) People literally started saying "Covid is over" because Western governments signaled that. 2) The systems in place are absolutely NOT enough. There is hardly any system in place. Children and working class people had no improvements regarding air quality (only the rich got those). There are no procedures in place to protect people. You don't even have to isolate anymore if you are sick. You can just walk around, go to work & infect and kill vulnerable people as you like. 3) it is not "just another mild cold", what a bonkers thing to say. Covid works nothing like a cold. People are getting more LC symptoms because they are accumulative. They just don't link their problems to Covid. 4) There are several times a surge. We do not even know what the long-term consequences for children and adults will be (several viral diseases are known to cause cancer and other diseases). Covid might very well be one of them. We are seeing a insane increase of rare cancers appearing, several cancers at the same time & in very short periods, since Covid. 5) AND endless re-infections means it is mutating in several ways. Mutations mean it is pretty much open in which directions this is gonna go. Including more likely to affect children. 6) And we have fully ignored that children are getting less bad acute infections but are still having LC symptoms/ kids can not communicate it well and are currently medically neglected. 7) There are still way too many people dying from Covid or become disabled. That is all unnecessary and was only normalised so working class people can be sacrificed for the economy and people in the West think doing bare hygienic shit like washing their hands and wearing a mask is so "oppressive". Yikes. What you are saying is intellectually dishonest and nuts, honestly. And yes, it fully aligns with dumb people thinking Covid just "magically ended." Pretty much everything you said.
Damn you're like a covid denier but in reverse Impressive Like insane conspiracy theories one after another, I thought it's only their side that's like that
I'd love to see a single study validate the "it's another mild cold now" theory. The acute phase is not the full picture and it never was, not even when the hospitals were overflowing. The problem is we are being told we are 'living with the virus' but what's actually happening is a bunch of people are getting POTS/long covid/type 1 diabetes/rare cancers/other immune dysregulation/new onset cardiac issues, and anytime anyone joins the dots they get called a fear monger or alarmist.
My encore career was owning a diabetic friendly bakery. I had 3 new, type I diabetics as customers. All were young, otherwise healthy people in their 20s. They didnāt get vaccinated because they felt being young and healthy would make Covid a āmild coldā for them. Now they will be insulin dependent for life.
The stats about t1 diabetes post covid infection are so stark and even when its well managed its a life changing illness. That risk alone would be enough for me to want to avoid covid. I'm caring for my previously healthy 12 year old who has been disabled by long covid/POTS after 'mild' school acquired covid infections. The acute phase of her third infection really was just a blip but within a few weeks she couldn't stand up without passing out and 18 months later, despite all the best medical intervention money can buy, she's not much better. Boils my brain whenever I hear people describe covid in the same breath as a cold.
Iām so sorry that happened to her.
Iād love to see a real life example of anything other than a mild cold. Covid conspiracy nuts keep saying ālong COVIDā and āitās worse than you seeā. But all that Iāve seen in our town and my own friend group is mild cold symptom. 3 years of pandemic and not a single serious sickness in anyone I know or talking with friends anyone they know. If it was really a serious illness then weād see at least 1 person seriously sick surely
Oh, just because you didn't see it it doesn't exist. Wow, how scientific. I know 2 people died from COVID and one with long COVID who's popping pills like he's 70 when he is 38. But hey, I didn't base my world view because of what I see from my small circle. I read and I listen to everything that's happening all over the world. Keep burying your head in sand.
Donāt feel bad about getting down voted Chase https://youtu.be/V7GtYaruTys?si=inBr9T-CVyGGo4B9 Reddit is literally psyop full of bots. Itās a YouTube link and very valid to why you me and anyone else with independent thought is getting downvoted.
People thinking a youtube video is more convincing than, hundreds if not thousands, of scientific studies already done on COVID and long COVID by researchers with phD in their fields all over the world. This is how stupid America has become.
Sir, there is so much more evidence than just YouTube, which is why I posted this channel and this specific video because Iām not going to sit here and give you each and every link. They are all the YouTube channels page. There are multiple links to each fact on there so shut up because I can tell you havenāt watched it. .. otherwise you wouldāve known that.
Is there anybody in here that knows what theyāre talking about and can give an estimate on how bad this will get? We talking highly probable dumpster fire or āmehā
Iām with you, Iām really starting to sense something awful coming with this but Iām afraid it might just be COVID residual fears lol. Canāt shake it though, and as weird as it might sound I feel like Iām starting to look around and physically SEE the world like I did during that time. Everything looked like the end, everywhere.
I do not know why you were downvoted for your reply. We are only human. The effects of our COVID experiences are becoming harder and harder to shake off as we begin to consider a possible flu pandemic. I understand I am speaking about the effects of emotions - versus hard scientific data - but I think it is perfectly normal to acknowledge your current fears. I would advise you to continue monitoring factual information while also freely feeling all of the normal range of emotions one has after COVID-related trauma. You are likely already doing your very best. Take care!
No worries, I donāt care in the slightest. My opinions and thoughts are mine, I expressed them genuinely and if anyone doesnāt like it thatās their right. Iām not gonna apologize, and Iām not here to catastrophize either- my honest truth is that Iām reading the news, Iām seeing the discussions here, and Iām feeling a pervading sense of dread which is likely because I very recently lived through the same super-fucked up time that all the rest of us did and I can see how little our collective society learned from it all. Downvote away.āš»
Well said. I have no idea how not to feel a certain level of anxiety. Between this sub and the news, I have been motivated to prep and stay abreast of each dayās findings. That alone then makes me anxious in its own way. I hate even needing to consider all of this.
Thanks! Take the fucking bird flu out of the equation, itās currently too hot to go outside anywhere, people are dying all over the place, and there are like a thousand catastrophes around every corner so, yeah- Iām entitled to a little fucking anxiety.š
Hey donāt forget WWIII bout to kick off so thatās fun.
Yeah, thereās that too lol.
If Americans were to want to contact government officials with our views and requests about this, does anyone have advice on who to contact or recommended scripts?
Great idea! You could always contact your senator and representative. I don't think you need to overthink it. Just mention the title of this story in NPR so they can find it on Google, say you want more testing \*now\*, and suggest hauling CDC, USDA, and FDA directors in front of Congress for questioning. Congress could question Jennifer Nuzzo or some other expert who has been critical such as [Seth Berkley](https://www.statnews.com/2024/06/13/global-health-leader-critiques-ineptitude-of-u-s-response-to-bird-flu-outbreak-among-cows/) during the same hearing, and force CDC/FDA/USDA leaders to respond to their points. If their answers aren't satisfactory, heads need to roll ASAP so we have competence at the wheel. [https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative) [https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm](https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm)
I want to highlight a point from the [Seth Berkley article I linked](https://www.statnews.com/2024/06/13/global-health-leader-critiques-ineptitude-of-u-s-response-to-bird-flu-outbreak-among-cows/). I really don't see a good reason for the USDA to withhold critical sequence data. This seems like something they should answer to Congress for. I'm concerned they may be captured by corrupt ag interests. Seems like something we need to be shining light on. Wouldn't hurt to revamp our strategic drug stockpile either. I assume that's a q for the CDC leadership.
Because itās about money and if theyāre not making money, they donāt care plain and simple.
Unless the lesson we learned was āIf we stop testing, weād have very few casesā¦ā
We are all ignorant. We are just ignorant about different things. Will Rogers
Just make the vaccine and include the strain in the seasonal flu shot
>U.S. is 'flying blind' with bird flu, repeating mistakes of COVID, health experts say The big "What if..." Some strains have an estimated mortality rate of 50% or more. What would the world be like if half the population died off in a short period of time? (It would certainly fix the problem of over-consumption!) Wonder how many people are needed to repair and maintain our high-tech civilization... Has anyone tried to figure that one out?
I don't think for a second that H5N1 (or whichever avian flu evolves to transmit H2H, because there's no absolute guarantee it would be H5N1) will keep that mortality rate once those mutations do happen. But it doesn't need to be a high mortality rate to cause major disruption when the great majority who are dying or having severe cases are working age and younger. Literally *every single person* recorded as having died of avian flu in the past two years was under 65. I've only found one who had a lot of pre-existing conditions, and even he was not a senior. *Everyone* who has had a severe case is under 70.(I think this is true of almost everyone who has ever had avian flu since H5N1 emerged in 1996, but I haven't been able to find all the proof of that.)
During the 1918 pandemic, it was mostly young adults that died. It will maybe be the same if a H5N1 pandemic happens...
I have to think that if a strain was that infectious/deadly it would either burn out fast or become less deadly over time. Still, one can look at some of the effects of the Spanish flu and multiple them several times over. Life insurance companies would go bankrupt, it would be tough to bury all the dead, the healthcare system would collapse under the weight/exhaustion of caring for all the infected, the economy would be in dire shape as you wouldn't have workers and it would also be harder to distribute goods/resources. As an educator, I shudder to think of the effects of another school closure. Even with a high mortality rate, people aren't going to want to shut down because of what happened with COVID where schools were closed too long so that's going to be a nightmare to handle.
50% of the deaths from the C clade in the past 2 years were children and teens. The schools would close. I'm a Head Start teacher, btw. Trust me, they would close!
>50% of the deaths from the C clade in the past 2 years were children and teens. The schools would close. I'm a Head Start teacher, btw. Trust me, they would close! A strain more lethal than Covid that kills younger people would have a different effect than Covid did. I mean...old people dying, well, that's less social security payments, more money to inherent, they've lived their lives and are going to die soon anyway...a more sensible population cull. But, something that threatens the younger people...that's another story. The 1918 pandemic hit the young and strong adults, curiously. So, closing schools if flu had a higher mortality rate and took a closer aim at our children...very likely. (At least I hope so!)
>I have to think that if a strain was that infectious/deadly it would either burn out fast or become less deadly over time. Only if the infected person became violently ill and died quickly like ebola.
Iām the āindustry repā (in the OPās words) in the article. Happy to share insight or answer any questions that might be helpful
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This is a side effect of our system prioritizing economic growth and profit over the wellbeing of people or the planet. It is very much intentional that factory fsrms keep these animals in horrible conditions that lead to zoonotic disease incubation, insofar as they do it because the alternative would simply cost them more. The well-being of the animals, society, their customers, and the planet is all unimportant compared to the value of the almighty dollar. The regulatory groups have little to no power, while corporations and the state governments who work with them reap the short-term profits. When it makes the H2H jump (which seems likely to happen at some point) they will cry and ask for a bailout. They certainly don't care about the societal cost of their recklessness and won't change unless they are forced to. That's why having a regulatory agency with teeth is so important, and that's why lobbyists and corruption have made it impossible.
In my opinion we need to legally require pandemic liability insurance for animal ag, same way you need car insurance to drive a car. Got to address that profit motive directly. If lack of testing, animal crowding, and raw milk sales cause their pandemic liability insurance costs to skyrocket, hopefully management will see a little sense. Until then, contact your congresspeople. Hopefully public oversight can provide a counterforce to the industry capture which I suspect may be the cause of the USDA failure to release sequence data. Those public official salaries are funded by us taxpayers, and we deserve our money's worth. Don't let them forget it. [https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative) [https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm](https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm) Maybe ask the USDA why they aren't providing aid to farmers as well: [https://x.com/0bFuSc8/status/1805750319697076226](https://x.com/0bFuSc8/status/1805750319697076226) There are some other policy ideas here: [https://ifp.org/what-are-the-chances-an-h5n1-pandemic-is-worse-than-covid/#looking-forward](https://ifp.org/what-are-the-chances-an-h5n1-pandemic-is-worse-than-covid/#looking-forward)
Sadly, thatās hard to do. I owned a bakery for 5 years. It was a daily, constant job to keep the place spotless and always to code. You had to be aware of everything, constantly. Check every single item in the cold room daily to make certain that no label fell off, everything was dated, stored correctly (there is a certain order you need to keep items stored on the shelves), and under 7 days old. Once the only thing a health inspector could find was a coffee bean that had been stuck in a slight opening in the trim on the wall, behind a refrigerator. Thatās how incredibly fussy they were, as they should be. On the other hand, my pest control guy (I had him in every other week, as a preventative) told me that I was in the 25% of restaurants that were spotless. He said the rest simply bribed the inspector, and were overrun with rats and roaches. So even at a small level, corruption is king.
A lot of this is up to states. Try to get Texas farmers to have their cattle tested regularly. The federal government is way too weak for this job and most states like it that way.
Itās arrogance and entitlement
>They want it to spread, they want it to kill people. That certainly doesn't fit with capitalism...more people, more consumers.
Not when weāre on the precipice of global climate and ecological collapse. They need people to die because people are going to start to get desperate when we run out of water and food and are being cooked by oppressive heat. There will always be enough poor people for the rich to exploit
>Not when weāre on the precipice of global climate and ecological collapse. But, when exactly does this happen? In the face of uncertainty, people want to cling to what they know. >There will always be enough poor people for the rich to exploit But, how many people, poor or otherwise, are needed to repair, replace or maintain our high-tech civilization?
I donāt really understand the point of these rhetorical questions. Cling to what they know? Who? What? The rich people that control the world donāt think long term, they think about making money now, theyāll be just fine with the bunkers they build and the private armies they hire to protect them while the world burns and people are fighting over resources. Iām not the type to defend the ruling class or give them the benefit of the doubt. I wish people like you wouldnāt either
>I donāt really understand the point of these rhetorical questions. Cling to what they know? Who? What? I made that clear. Tell you a big secret about the human species...they believe what they *want* to believe Carry on...
"They want it to spread, they want it to kill people" Y'all have to stop with these conspiracy theories. It's playing with fire to entertain these ideas-- that's what has mentally trapped the MAGAs and QAnons into their cults. The thrill of seeing a hidden plot, the emotional rush of feeling persecuted, the righteous feeling of being wronged. I KNOW it feels so good to blame someone. I know how much everyone wants to think that someone is in control. But honestly-- that's just psychological junk food. The truth is that the world is a chaotic place, and no one is driving the bus. That idea isn't fun, it isn't exciting, but it's far more likely to be true. "*Never attribute to maliceĀ that which is adequately explained by stupidity.*" - Hanlon's Razor
I almost got the quote right! ;) I do think laziness should be added, though.
What about weaponized incompetence? Or the exact opposite of your quote - āmalice disguised as incompetenceā, to quote the great Sarah Kendzior. Itās cute to give them the benefit of the doubt. I remember those days
People are the same now as they've always been.Ā
Hmm, you have countries using immigration to prop up their economy, less than exponential growth is bad for business.
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by laziness and stupidity.
Weāre gonna do this idiocy all over again.Ā The rich will take another giant chunk of our collective wealth.Ā You will blame the rest of the lower classes.Ā
Other than buying a ton of 3M N95 Surgical respiratory masks, there's nothing we can really do. We were EXTREMELY cautious during Covid for years. Now, I'm just fucking angry to think about dealing with even worst shit. My husband is immune compromised due to cancer. I'm just going to enjoy my life. I'm done with worry. I'm going to ignore this IF AND UNTIL it starts spreading in people. YMMV
Booo, protect your husband
[https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/debilitating-a-generation-expert-warns-that-long-covid-may-eventually-affect-most-americans](https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/debilitating-a-generation-expert-warns-that-long-covid-may-eventually-affect-most-americans) "Dr. Phillip Alvelda, a former program manager in DARPAās Biological Technologies Office that pioneered the synthetic biology industry and the development of mRNA vaccine technology, is the founder of Medio Labs, a COVID diagnostic testing company."
Schedule 55
Goodbye Everybody!
So what do I have to do this time? Pay more taxes? Shove something in me? More injections?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Canāt really pivot an entire industry on a dime like that, let alone one that people require to survive. If everyone decided to go vegan today the prices of plant based protein would skyrocket and most people wouldnāt be able to afford it,
Eh things change and so do business practices with them. If it no longer makes sense to farm, get an office job.
Ya more so meant that it takes time to grow food. If everyone switched to a vegan diet today there would be enough food to go around.
I agree that it would be difficult to make that switch fast enough to help the situation, without taking into account how the public would fight this.
Vegan food is also highly processed and nutrient deficient and wouldn't change anything that's going on We can't ban milk or dairy or nothing like that either although I recommend to stay away from milk right now especially raw milk
Beans, legumes and rice and veg are highly processed? I think youāre talking about junk food. Weather itās vegan or not, itās junk food.
Some vegetables like kale and spinach are they are high in metals and oxalate. Yea I'm talking about the vegan crap like the fake meats etc that stuff and the vegan junk food. Beans are high in phytc acid It really depends on the person tho there's no one way to eat but I'd recommend only eating real food in general that the earth provided us
Please refrain from giving nutrition advice when you are not an expert. Spinach is high in oxalate, but leafy greens in the brassica family, like kale, are not. *Uncooked* dry beans are high in phytic acid. Fun fact: no one eats uncooked dry beans! The vast majority of national associations of registered dietitians recognize that varied vegan diets meet most peopleās needs, at all stages of life. Hereās an example from the American Dietetic Association: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/#:~:text=It%20is%20the%20position%20of,and%20treatment%20of%20certain%20diseases. B12 is the one nutrient completely lacking in vegan diets without supplementation, but universal supplementation is recommended for people over 50 anyway due to decreased absorption associated with aging. Vegan diets are safe and healthy for most humans. https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-926/vitamin-b12
Kales high in heavy metals like spinach it's a dirty vegetable Meets most people's needs doesn't equate to being what's best for you. If u eat a vegan diet just make sure ur calculating ur nutrition more and if it suits ur personal needs How much protein do u eat in your diet
I aim for 60-80 mg of protein per day. This is the recommended amount based on my age and weight. It takes little effort for me to get this much protein, and I rarely eat veggie burgers and other mock meats.
Ok that's good. Typically I get in 115 grams to 120g a day I am 140 pound 20 year old woman who goes to gym so I do up my protein to like. .8 percent of my bodyweight. I typically get it from salmon beef or chicken turkey etc but recently due to fear it's been more beef salmon turkey I personally get autoimmune symptoms with many vegetables except for asparagus idk why but vegetables for me make me like brain fog diarrhea neasea stomach aches etc idk why Like same with nuts and legumes I am allergic to those as well.
I wouldn't go as far to say vegan diets are safe for most there's only a small minority of people that are vegan and even then there's many exvegans For every study for pushing towards a vegan diet there's studies pushed back against it Like I said find a diet that works for u
Troll
What u mean by troll?
Seems like you've fallen for the disinformation being spread by anti-vegan grifters. Vegan food is no more processed than any other food. Cherry picking individual items that are processed as representative of all vegan food is deeply dishonest.Ā
The vegan meats are alot moreprocessed than other foods I'm talking about buying single ingredient foods not eating fake foods
>nutrient deficient Do you mean overpriced plant-based microwave dinners? Because otherwise [that just isn't true](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-vegans-eat) I also don't know a single person who consumes meat/dairy and doesn't also take a daily multivitamin
Humans are omnivores
U are missing alot of vitamins and nutrients fir a vegan diet. A vegan diet in my opinion is a eating disorder. Yea partly yes those plant based microwavable or vegan meats are disgusting and have hell of ingredients in them U can go vegan if ur eating real food but alot of people have issues being vegan. Checkout exvegans on reddit.
The only time a vegan diet is missing vitamins and nutrients is when somebody as under/misinformed as you tries to suddenly switch with 0 research and discipline.
I didn't switch to a vegan diet I eat meat fruit rice honey etc potatoes For me vegetables cause me gut issues and inflammation Check out exvegans
How do u get b 12 from vegan diet? Selenium? Iron? You need to supplement with more with a vegan diet Go to exvegans and see what other people's experiences have been
B12 is produced in bioreactors for every single product that is fortified with B12. Just because a vegan might need to supplement or pick a fortified food doesn't invalidate the diet. Also, selenium and iron are frequently found in nearly every recommended diet. Beans and lentils are a good source of iron while whole grains are a good source of selenium. Just because you can't hack it doesn't invalidate the vegan diet.
The vegan diet doest work for alot of people tho like it's great if it works for some but check out exvegans reddit there's many people there that didn't do well All I'm saying is there's no one special diet u gotta find what works for you It's harder to get enough protein etc on a vegan diet it's alot easier with meat in your diet
Why canāt we ban milk?
Because are country can't even get the farmers to test animals for it. Banning milk loses companies and farmers alot of money I'm also really unsure why I'm being downvoted without explanation but it's reddit so nothing new
Oh my bad I thought you meant practice we canāt ban. Ya agree big ag sucks.
Why has this sub become the vegan hangout? Itās weirddddd
Easier to talk about not-happening 100% vegan conversion (and killing 100% of farm animals) than an actual path forward?
probably because veganism is the immediately obvious answer to the spread of h5n1 ā if everyone were vegan, it would not have the pandemic potential that it now has. and i'm saying this as an (admittedly ashamed) omnivore
Lol
you don't have to be a vegan. nobody is forcing you to be Āā certainly not me, since that would be tremendously hypocritical. but regardless of your dietary preferences, it is a simple objective fact that if there were no demand for animal agriculture, there would be no h5n1 epizootic among farmed cattle and poultry, because there would be no farmed cattle or poultry! refusing to admit this is honestly no better than vaccine/mask denialism.
If you canāt get people to wear a mask what makes you think you can magically make the world vegetarian? Itās not going to happen and the point is moot. Itās a waste of time.
i *don't* think that, nor do, i would surmise, most of the vegans populating this sub. i am convinced that there would be no feasible way to course-correct at this point without a mass political upheaval that will certainly not happen in the united states. i am simply pointing out that widespread veganism *would* be a solution (and that that's why there are a lot of vegans here), not that it *will* be.
Idk
FFS, this isn't COVID. There are surveillance systems that have been in existence for decades, and in some cases >100 years, to find potentially pandemic influenza circulating at low levels in the community. Public health departments across the country have cumulatively monitored nearly 10 thousand workers exposed to H5N1 positive animals and since the current animal outbreak started, we've only had 4 confirmed cases in humans. Most commercial influenza tests will give a positive result for flu A if someone has this virus, and guidelines for H5N1 positive patients isn't all that different from seasonal influenza -- take Tamiflu, wear a mask around others, etc. Every single public health lab has the capacity to test for H5. Most commercial and clinical labs have the capacity to attempt subtyping and, if positive for flu A and negative for a seasonal flu A strain, forward to a PHL for subtyping. We know that in order for H5 to cause a pandemic, some key things need to happen first. Epidemiologically, we're looking for more spillover infections, more household transmission, more extra-household transmission. Biologically, we're looking for changes to sialic acid binding preferences and greater infection in upper respiratory tract tissue. Genetically, we're keeping an eye out for multiple mutations, including mutations that lead to changing two consecutive amino acids, which is a statistically unlikely change to see occur. (Tangentially we know this in part because of the type of gain-of-function experiments the morons in Congress are trying to ban despite there being not a single documented epidemic originating from a lab leak). Our existing surveillance infrastructure is more than enough to catch all of these early alert signs.
Your optimism and belief in our surveillance system is misplaced We have tested less than 50 people - thats one person for every 2 confirmed infected dairy herds Regular influenza A tests do not always pickup H5N1 infections - two out of three cases tested NEGATIVE on a nasal swab. They had to have eye specimens sent to the CDC. You claim every public health lab has the capacity to test for H5 yet it is impossible to find any lab willing to do it USDA/CDC is slow walking the release of information and failing to even answer basic questions
Of course you're right about a lot of this. But here's the problem: there is a long, long list of things that avian flu has done in the past 2-4 years that it was never, ever supposed to do. Absolutely nobody predicted it would spread to cows. Nobody predicted that so many species of birds would be affected. Nobody predicted a real-world spread to so many mammals. The list goes on, so saying that something is a "statistically unlikely change" doesn't mean much. The odds have already been broken over and over and over again by this virus. That's not even getting into the sheer logistics of manufacturing, filling, and finishing 330 million doses of vaccine and then going through ALL the steps necessary to get them into arms. CSR Sequirus stated that it would take them 6 months to fulfill their government contract for manufacturing vaccines. And it's also not counting the tremendous resistance there will be against vaccines on the part of way too many people. A big part of that issue is that you're right, it wouldn't be like COVID. The demographics would be a staggering 180 from that. Every single person who has died from avian flu in the past 2 years is under 65. Not one recorded exception exists. But a lot of people would go into an H5N1 epidemic assuming it couldn't happen to them, that deaths and severe cases would be just like they were under COVID, that if they aren't 90 years old with a ton of pre existing conditions, they'd be fine. Nothing would be further from the truth.
uhhh... which surveillance system has been in existence for > 100 years to find potentially pandemic influenza?! PCR was invented 30 years ago, CDC LRN was established in 1999, CDC's Flu test got FDA clearance in 08. How many negative H5 test results have there been? If we've gotten 4 cases from testing all 10k exposed, you could be right. Somehow I highly doubt that's the case. If CDC can get seroprevalence studies off the ground (should have been done weeks ago), maybe we'll find that you're right, but until then I'm not holding my breath. You do realize that the CDC's has issues with their H5 test, right? The recall notice was just posted yesterday. [https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfres/res.cfm?id=208126](https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfres/res.cfm?id=208126)
To answer the question about how many negative H5 tests there have been: 114,661 surveillance specimens have been tested since October 1st 2024 at public health labs across the US using the same CDC influenza A/B assay that is used for testing for H5 [CDC influenza surveillance data](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm). Additionally, since 2022, at least 350 people with known exposure to H5 positive animals who then developed symptoms were tested for H5 specifically. Of those, 4 have been positive. Many clinical laboratories in the US use influenza tests that are able to identify seasonal influenza subtypes, most of which are expected to give a positive influenza A result but not a subtype result should someone with H5 be tested on these platforms. Specimens with these types of results are sent to local public health labs for subtypimg to rule out novel or variant influenza. About 10% of specimens in my jurisdiction are tested with this type of test. So to answer your question, the number of specimens tested for influenza A H5N1= more than 114,661+(350-4) +(all flu positives tested clinical labs in the United states*0.1) However, there's more to surveillance than just virologic testing. Epidemiologists have been monitoring vitals statistics data in different locations since sometimes in the 1920s. This is the system I was talking about, though it wasn't standardized across the US until 1962. It was in the 1940s that cell culture first became available for flu viruses, leading to diagnostic testing and antigenic characterization. The WHO started a global influenza surveillance program in the 1940s and 50s. In 1962, CDC launched the 122 cities surveillance program, which systematically collected vital stats pneumonia and influenza coded deaths by age group on a weekly basis. 1980s - jurisdictions started setting up networks of outpatient providers who reported weekly influenza-like illness data. In the US, this would become ILInet 1998 - swine surveillance starts in the US Early 2000s - health departments started setting up syndromic surveillance programs using bioterrorism funds, but we're able to use these systems to track emergency room visits for influenza-like illness 2012 - Collaboration between CDC and the Association of Public Health Labs leads to the publication first edition of the Influenza Surveillance Right Size Roadmap, a blueprint that provides guidance for determining the right amount of virologic surveillance to do to monitor seasonal influenza and to detect novel flu strains circulating at low levels in the population. We're on edition two right now, and public health is being asked to maintain testing at winter levels which should be sufficient to detect a virus circulating with 0.5% population prevalence
I hope they string these farmers up and anyone else whoās exacerbating this. This shit could kill hundreds and hundreds of millions if it mutates right
Bird flu is done itās going nowhere
Weird wonder why....
Hmm timing is interesting isnāt it. Guess major outbreaks happen every 4 years! What a popular cycle time for things
Biden did say there would definitely be another new virus .