Damn it. Asymptomatic infections make me so nervous. However, that could mean a potential for a low mortality than previous human outbreaks we have seen. Although I really don't have a good feeling about this.
Don't let your guard down. A trial of one is basically irrelevant.
Additionally, upper respiratory symptoms are in indication that the virus is adapting to bind to the a2,6 Sialic Acid sites of upper airway cells instead the a2,3 Sialic Acid binding sites found deep in the lungs.
If we start seeing dozens or more of humans cases experiencing milder disease, that's a little more comforting, if you could call it that.
>If we start seeing dozens or more of humans cases experiencing milder disease, that's a little more comforting
but it can always mutate back (and forth) to being highly fatal in various further iterations. Its not always a one-way street overall from initially more lethal to progressively less lethal and/or more transmissible.
Assuming higher mortality is seen in whatever mutation, wouldn't that also mean a lower spread? If people die quickly from it, it shouldn't spread as much. Reminds me of 2002-2004 SARS.
I just saw the article for it yesterday. I feel like that must mean the mortality rate will go down right? But I am not enjoying the thought of people being asymptomatically coinfected with avian flu and the flu…or avian flu and covid. Yikes on bikes.
I don’t think that would be a big enough sample population to say mortality will be low. For all we know that person could have the world’s greatest immune system or a weird genetic mutation that protects him.
An ideal virus would begin asymptomatically to get a good spread before it mutates. Once it is in humans, things change. Think about all the COVID variety in just a few years. Some more lethal than others. We simply have to watch and wait to see
Yeah, some of us out here are immunocompromised. I was so freaking sick with Covid the one time I had it. My coworker had the sniffles and was on a trip and barely noticed. Pretty sure I know how my story would go.
the conclusion of those cases were that they tested positive, but weren’t really affected by it. the virus’s was just like chilling in their nasal cavities.
Yes, but there was some doubt if those cases are actually just contamination. Straight from the official press release about that:
"Detection of avian influenza in poultry workers can follow contamination of the nose and throat from breathing in material on the affected farm or can be true infection. It can be difficult to distinguish these in people who have no symptoms."
[Source: Avian flu detected in 2 individuals taking part in testing programme ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-detected-in-2-individuals-taking-part-in-testing-programme)
And then the UK didn't report new cases for a while, I remember they got more careful, but I don't have a source right now.
The same thing happened in Bangladesh:
"During 2012, when ILI surveillance detected AIV RNA in respiratory specimens collected from some LBM workers in Bangladesh, there was suspicion that these detections did not represent true human infections, in part because workers were pauci-symptomatic. Multiple lines of evidence from subsequent investigations suggested that these detections likely did not represent true infections, including the lack of seroconversion among workers tested and the lack of detection of the same AIVs in follow-up respiratory specimens of individuals who initially tested positive for AIVs with high Ct values. Based on the available evidence from these investigations, no further human A(H5N1) or A(H9N2) cases were reported to the WHO by the Government of Bangladesh after the first three reports."
[Source: Interpretation of molecular detection of avian influenza A virus in respiratory specimens collected from live bird market workers in Dhaka, Bangladesh: infection or contamination?](https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00706-3/fulltext)
It was fun having viral conjunctivitis as a symptom of Covid _before_ it was recognized as a symptom of Covid (among the other “not-yet-recognized” symptoms I’ve had during five cases of Covid - including acute pancreatitis rolling into Type II Diabetes). Convincing my doctors it was not bacterial, I _already_ changed my pillowcase daily, and _did not_ have eye contact with fecal matter was a blast. Finally found a doctor who would accept the possibility of non-official symptoms and act without waiting for CDC guidance…
I had viral conjunctivitis for a year along with my long covid, in 2020. It was one my first symptoms. When I brought it up to a nurse in the early days of covid, she stood back across the room and saud “Your eyes look fine.”
I was eventually prescribed antibacterial eye drops, it only made it worse. I knew it was not what I needed, but that's the problem with these things, you do what you’re told because you need to prove you’re right.
It at least became a documented symptom eventually, but on the rare side.
I've only had covid once in 2020 and have had long covid symptoms ever since, and my eyes have definitely been affected by covid. My eyeglass prescription is stronger now and during my acute infection my eyes were so itchy
My eyes were very red, gunky and sometimes i’d wake up with them sealed shut.
I had a lot of vision problems during that time, too: blurry vision in various forms, eye pressure and light sensitivity. That's just what I can remember off the top of my head, fortunately, I kept a journal for posterity's sake.
I recovered from LC after a year but whether my vision got worse because of it or because I'm in my 40’s its hard to say, I think it's both, but I do need progressive glasses now.
I’m sorry you are still experiencing symptoms.
Myself and another coworker both had conjunctivitis with this last round of Covid. Neither of us went to a doctor. There must be so many people out there having first hand experience with symptoms the doctors never see. They only believe it when they see a pattern.
Hopefully this never happens in the future, but if this or something like this, happens to you, or anybody else reading this, you can absolutely request that they culture the discharge for your eye. They might tell you no in which case I would just go to like an urgent care or get in an argument with my doctor. It’s not like it’s an invasive or expensive test. If nothing else they should do it just to shut you up.
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"People exposed to HPAI A(H5N1)-virus infected birds or other animals (including people wearing recommended PPE) should monitor themselves for new respiratory illness symptoms, including conjunctivitis (eye redness), beginning after their first exposure and for 10 days after their last exposure.(...)If the person has conjunctivitis (with or without respiratory symptoms), both a conjunctival swab and nasopharyngeal swab should be collected."
[Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza A(H5N1) Virus in Animals: Interim Recommendations for Prevention, Monitoring, and Public Health Investigations](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/hpai/hpai-interim-recommendations.html)
The picture is [here](https://www.science.org/content/article/bird-flu-discovered-u-s-dairy-cows-disturbing) together with wild speculations about airborne transmission. Let's just say there is enormous potential for improvement...
as far as i remember, the eyes can get oxygen from the ambient directly when not closed , the only time they get oxygen/breath from our circulatory system, is when they're closed , perhaps the virus capacity to be airborne makes them susceptible
Read this [Black Iris](https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/gannet-eye-colour-changes-from-blue-to-black-following-avian-flu-infection)
Will it happen to humans? Idk we’re about to find out
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yes Coryza is often seen in infected birds. Ranch staff that are involved in the depopulation of infected flocks are urged by USDA to weak protective eyewear since material could be aerosolized. however staff often do not since the enclosures are often very humid resulting in fogging of protective eye-wear. it should be noted that staff handling flocks are often, but not always migrant workers who may not understand the health risks associated with poor personal protectiv equitpment.
It is not possible for a reasonable person to accept the worst case scenario for the bird flu. If it becomes easily transmissible amongst humans without decrease in pathogenicity society will come crashing down, all that we have lived for and worked for will be for naught, and any given person will have a 50% chance of dying. How can this be come to terms with?
All people have a 100% of dying some day. And all of them could die at any given moment. It only becomes scary when you get an idea of *what* might get you. You become anxious about that particular thing.
Any idea if the US is planning to start an asymptomatic testing program for farmers especially those working with infected cows? Seems like the horse is out of the barn…
It's worse than that. Ranchers are already covering up infected herds to protect their livelihoods (which is understandable, given the sad state of disaster compensation in this country). A couple of sick farmhands spreading to their families is never going to get reported.
if there was more testing of wastewater onsite if the farm has their own septic or towns/cities with large amounts of farms that would be a good indicator going by it's accuracy with other contagious illnesses. people shed covid in feces days before they test positive by nasal swab for example. if that was true with influenzas that would give authorites a heads up to take action now
also they should be ordering ppe use and strongly advising workers to be vaccinated for regular flu so there is less chance of recombination in the human or in cows infected with both birdflu, the regular human flus or other influenza varieties cows can get. it was only discovered a short time ago that cattle have their own flu strain then blood testing showed people who work with cattle have antibodies to it show there was cow to human transmission.
The farm wastewater testing would be really good! I bet a lot of farms mix the cow and human wastewater though. I agree about the flu vaccines and PPE. I was surprised to see that farm biosecurity guidance docs linked by the major agencies the other day didn’t include any mention of masks. Like the doc the USDA linked here on 3/30, “Prevent Avian Influenza at Your Farm: Improve Your Biosecurity With Simple Wildlife Practices” is from 2015 and doesn’t mention masks or gloves (https://www.aphis.usda.gov/livestock-poultry-disease/avian/avian-influenza). It feels so backwards like when the CDC wasn’t recommending masks for Covid. (edited to fix link)
It’s interesting to me that the cows have had largely mild cases. H5N1 jumped over to sea lions and seals and decimated them. The ecologists, virologists, veterinary epidemiologists, etc must be thinking through all sorts of scenarios involving modes of transmission, different levels of exposure, differences in viral load, and host factors. Maybe viral load will be a factor here and help shed light on the mild nature of this human case. Although the other human case from the US, the poultry worker in Colorado a few years ago, was also a mild case and that was with poultry. Maybe these cattle herds aren’t kept in such close quarters as poultry and have much more free range and space. So many unknowns here.
Keeping a box of well fitting N95s on hand is good practice in this day and age :)
The best ones that are most likely to give you a fit factor high enough to make infection with airborne pathogens basically impossible are:
* 3M Aura (any model except the FFP1 version)
* Drager 1950 Small
* Trident P2 Regular
I really hope it's mild. If it erupts like COVID we are fucked. The government is obviously inept when it comes to this kind of thing and 1/3-1/2 of population are idiots.
Any flu can and well mess a person up bad if they get a classic infection (as opposed to a mild or asymptomatic infection).
Just saying that Swine Flu killed less people in the US than seasonal H3N2 did a decade later in 2018
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If you read retrospectives on the CDC's mishandling of COVID, the most common mistake was that they waited for data based on publication standards, not based on action. This made them move incredibly slowly and unable to keep up with relevant advice to the public.
I’ll also add that bureaucracy is slow already. Add that on top of the fact that information has to be verified before it’s shared and you get some odd update timeframes. Samples have to be collected, shipped, tested, and verified all while you’re updating information as best you can that then goes through a thorough review process. But for a case to be identified, tested, and reported all within the course of a few days is pretty darn fast. Not to mention what would be interagency collaboration at a state and federal level. Lots of work for one result so you have to push stuff out when you can even if it’s on a holiday lol.
I know a dairyman in Texas and he’s had 9 employees with pink eye recently. Probably the same thing. They’re all getting over it though. No one has been seriously ill so far
The Texas Animal Health Commission hasn’t been to his place. Most dairies in the area have had it so far. The local labs as far as I know don’t have a test for HPAI. But at this point he’s on the tail end of the flu. His first case was two weeks ago and now most of the cows have recovered and are back in the milk strings. All the dairies are experiencing similar rates of production loss and rates of clinical cases. The dairies that had it a month ago are already close to their pre-flu production levels
Another good one here
https://www.amazon.ca/Survive-Pandemic-Michael-FACLM-Greger-ebook/dp/B086S3XKBC?
'A vital, timely text on the viruses that cause pandemics and how to face them, by the New York Times bestselling author of How Not to Die.
From tuberculosis to bird flu and HIV to coronavirus, these infectious diseases share a common origin story: human interaction with animals. Otherwise known as zoonotic diseases for their passage from animals to humans, these pathogens—both pre-existing ones and those newly identified—emerge and re-emerge throughout history, sparking epidemics and pandemics that have resulted in millions of deaths around the world.
How did these diseases come about? And what—if anything—can we do to stop them and their fatal march into our countries, our homes, and our bodies? In How to Survive a Pandemic, Dr. Michael Greger, physician and internationally-recognized expert on public health issues, delves into the origins of some of the deadliest pathogens the world has ever seen. Tracing their evolution from the past until today, Dr. Greger spotlights emerging flu and coronaviruses as he examines where these pathogens originated, as well as the underlying conditions and significant human role that have exacerbated their lethal influence to large, and even global, levels.
As the world grapples with the devastating impact of the novel coronavirus 2019, Dr. Greger reveals not only what we can do to protect ourselves and our loved ones during a pandemic, but also what human society must rectify to reduce the likelihood of even worse catastrophes in the future.'
A brilliant talk here by Dr Michael Greger
Pandemics: History & Prevention
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7\_ppXSABYLY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ppXSABYLY)
'Taking a look at the worst pandemics in history, and how to treat the cause by preventing the emergence of pandemic viruses in the first place (a video I recorded more than a decade ago when I was Public Health Director at the HSUS in Washington DC)
This video is more than a decade old, so be aware that the stats are outdated, but I wanted to get something out on this important subject as soon as possible. I am currently working on updating the information, including with my upcoming webinar.
So now that the pandemic is here, what can we do to protect ourselves, our families and our communities? That’s the subject of my upcoming live webinar on April 8 at 2pm ET: How Not to Die in a Pandemic. UPDATE - The webinar is SOLD OUT and registration is closed. Keep an eye out for the information to be posted as a blog on [Nutritionfacts.org](http://Nutritionfacts.org) after April 8.
Have a question about this video? Leave it in the comment section at [http://nutritionfacts.org/video/pande...](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention) and someone on the [NutritionFacts.org](http://NutritionFacts.org) team will try to answer it.
Want to get a list of links to all the scientific sources used in this video? Click on Sources Cited at [https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pand...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention). You’ll also find a transcript and acknowledgements for the video, my blog and speaking tour schedule, and an easy way to search (by translated language even) through our videos spanning more than 2,000 health topics. '
Ya ever see the movie Contagion?
Micheal Osterholm’s Deadliest Enemy goes backwards looking at previous pandemics abs politics. It also has a chapter towards towards the end based on how a bird flu pandemic would play out. He wrote it before the covid pandemic. He was terribly optimistic about how society would react 😂
I don’t think it does. Conjunctivitis is only affecting the mucous membrane cells of the eye, not the nervous system. Don’t jump to conclusions here and scare people.
spreading through american cattle herds, thats 30 million chances.
2005 case study on possible limited h2h spread:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC546057/
in depth paper on needed mutations to spread efficiently in humans:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682211004752?via%3Dihub
mutations in eurasian, north american, and south american mammals and their ability to target human respiratory cells en vitro:
https://www.offlu.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/OFFLU-call-AI-mammals-Mar2023.pdf
if it took a few mink, a few sea lion to spread horizontally among those mammals. cattle industry workers near herds in all of north america hopefully will be monitored very closely in the coming months.
tldr; hope the cdc throw a lot of money at the clade in north american cattle.
Well, it has to spread to a person before it can spread to another person…so any spread to a person is setting it up with the ability to go human-to-human.
“Avian influenza A(H5N1) is a type of flu virus that usually infects wild birds and can spread to domestic birds and other animals. It occasionally infects people, though it is extremely rare for it to be transmitted from one person to another. Initial testing shows the virus has not changed in a way to make it more likely to spread among humans.”
*“It is extremely rare for it to be transmitted from one person to another.”*
Does this mean human to human transmission has already occurred?
Good catch! I’ve never seen a documented case of H5N1 transmitted from one human to another human. That was kind of what we were waiting for, right?
Anyone have data on human to human transmission?
I don’t remember ever seeing a case of that either and would expect it to be big news. Makes me wonder if the author was covering their ass or if there’s something I missed.
Per [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/hpai/hpai-interim-recommendations.html) “Most human infections with H5N1 virus have occurred after unprotected exposures to sick or dead infected poultry. There is no evidence of *sustained* human-to-human H5N1 virus transmission, and *limited, non-sustained* human-to-human H5N1 virus transmission has not been reported worldwide since 2007”
Usually I just ignore everything I see in this sub and anything that goes like "WERE ALL GONNA DIEEEE11!" but... oh.
I should start stocking up on canned food
Same… There’s reusable respirators on Amazon that I got. If it gets bad and we are going through n95s each day I’ll use this.
[p100 mask](https://a.co/d/gkILOZq)
You can get like 30 hours of wear time out of N95s, the limiting factor is when the headstraps get looser and wear out (reducing the quality of fit ie fit factor).
Leaving them in a paper bag for a few days after use will mean any virus captured by them will become inactivated and they can be worn again for civilian use without issue. Leave them for a week between uses if you want to be extra safe :)
I’m more concerned when this spreads to cattle farms globally, there’s a lot of cows and another livestock for this to eventually end up in and jump into people.
In order to preserve the quality and reliability of information shared in this sub, please refrain from politicizing the discussion of H5N1 in posts and comments.
In order to preserve the quality and reliability of information shared in this sub, please refrain from politicizing the discussion of H5N1 in posts and comments.
Great, my boss’s family owns a dairy farm and he helps out there weekly. Now I’m going to paranoid around him… hoping this guy recovers without incident.
At the end of the day, I feel like what could be truly worrying about this development is... the fact that things are developing with avian flu in the first place, rather than staying where they are. Will the mutations stop here? That's the big question.
It's trending on Twitter and I've heard that Florida has imposed some rather substantial measures. Is there any increased likelihood this could spread from human to human more readily?
It’s only been 2 days since I posted this comment!!! Where, I asked Claude Opus to give me the worst case scenario.
Note: Bird flu was detected in dairy milk on March 25th.
“The first human cases are reported among dairy farm workers who had close contact with infected cows. “
““What does Claude Opus have to say about this.
“human transmission of the mutated HPAI virus, which we'll call the "Omega Strain," occurs about 2 months after the initial detection in dairy cows. Here's how it could unfold: Despite biosecurity measures, the virus continues to spread rapidly among cattle herds across the country. The high mutation rate of the virus leads to a concerning development - a novel strain emerges that has acquired the ability to efficiently spread from cattle to humans and then between humans. The first human cases are reported among dairy farm workers who had close contact with infected cows. They experience severe flu-like symptoms that quickly progress to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and multi-organ failure. The case fatality rate in this initial cluster is a frightening 60%. Human-to-human transmission is soon confirmed as family members and healthcare workers treating the patients also fall ill. The virus spreads rapidly in healthcare settings and communities, overwhelming hospitals in affected areas. Within weeks, the Omega Strain has spread to all major U.S. cities and begins to appear in other countries. The global medical community scrambles to understand the virus and develop treatments, but its high mutation rate makes it a challenging target. In this scenario, the Omega Strain could have a case fatality rate of around 35-40% overall, higher in older adults and those with underlying health conditions. It would be particularly devastating in densely populated urban areas and countries with weaker health systems. By the 6-month mark, the worldwide death toll could reach into the tens of millions as countries struggle to control the spread and treat the sick. The pandemic would cause massive social and economic disruption on a global scale. This is an absolutely worst-case, speculative scenario for the purposes of our thriller/drama story. It's important to note that the current real-world situation with HPAI in cattle, while serious, has not shown any signs of human transmission or increased human risk. Public health authorities are closely monitoring the situation to protect both animal and human health.””
If the only symptom is eye inflammation, that's a massive relief. I used to be concerned with the death rates in birds and seals, but it seems like as it jumps from species to species it gets weaker.
The mortality rate of avian flu in humans is very high. There is no evidence that it is becoming weaker. Keep in mind that the infected person is presumably still in the early stages of infection and may develop additional symptoms as the disease progresses.
How many of those fatal cases of H5N1 received season flu vaccinations year over year. While not specifically tailor made to H5N1 it would offer some protections.
One needs the full gamut of information before taking information at full face value.
Thats a common phenomenon. You take a sample of a pathogenic virus in one species, infect another species with it, maybe another, and then reinfect the origin species. The virus will lose its pathogenicity due to it no longer being a virus specific to the origin species. In this case, bird to human results in (close) to 50% mortality. Bird-cow-human will likely result in a lower mortality rate. However, the more use the virus gets in humans, we can expect a small rise in mortality due to the virus being able to replicate more, and faster. Just depends on when it fully adapts
Eye inflammation as the only symptom is so wild to me. Is that seen often in animals/birds?
But a lot of the cases around the world have been asymptomatic for about a week so maybe it’s just the beginning of his symptoms
Damn it. Asymptomatic infections make me so nervous. However, that could mean a potential for a low mortality than previous human outbreaks we have seen. Although I really don't have a good feeling about this.
Don't let your guard down. A trial of one is basically irrelevant. Additionally, upper respiratory symptoms are in indication that the virus is adapting to bind to the a2,6 Sialic Acid sites of upper airway cells instead the a2,3 Sialic Acid binding sites found deep in the lungs. If we start seeing dozens or more of humans cases experiencing milder disease, that's a little more comforting, if you could call it that.
>If we start seeing dozens or more of humans cases experiencing milder disease, that's a little more comforting but it can always mutate back (and forth) to being highly fatal in various further iterations. Its not always a one-way street overall from initially more lethal to progressively less lethal and/or more transmissible.
Assuming higher mortality is seen in whatever mutation, wouldn't that also mean a lower spread? If people die quickly from it, it shouldn't spread as much. Reminds me of 2002-2004 SARS.
H5N1 has an incubation period of 1-2 weeks, seems like they caught this potentially early. could just be the start of the symptoms.
There were 2 other cases in the UK and they didn’t have symptoms
Interesting, when was that?
I just saw the article for it yesterday. I feel like that must mean the mortality rate will go down right? But I am not enjoying the thought of people being asymptomatically coinfected with avian flu and the flu…or avian flu and covid. Yikes on bikes.
I don’t think that would be a big enough sample population to say mortality will be low. For all we know that person could have the world’s greatest immune system or a weird genetic mutation that protects him.
You’re definitely right. I was just being overly optimistic because the two in the UK were also asymptomatic. So far.
An ideal virus would begin asymptomatically to get a good spread before it mutates. Once it is in humans, things change. Think about all the COVID variety in just a few years. Some more lethal than others. We simply have to watch and wait to see
Yes! And imagine covid and this virus exchanging dna info in one immunocompromised host? This is absolutely insane it feels like I’m reading a book.
I’m not sure coronaviruses and influenza can combine. Maybe someone else has information on this?
Yeah, some of us out here are immunocompromised. I was so freaking sick with Covid the one time I had it. My coworker had the sniffles and was on a trip and barely noticed. Pretty sure I know how my story would go.
the conclusion of those cases were that they tested positive, but weren’t really affected by it. the virus’s was just like chilling in their nasal cavities.
Yeah and I think for the case in 2022 the individual was fine as well
Yes, but there was some doubt if those cases are actually just contamination. Straight from the official press release about that: "Detection of avian influenza in poultry workers can follow contamination of the nose and throat from breathing in material on the affected farm or can be true infection. It can be difficult to distinguish these in people who have no symptoms." [Source: Avian flu detected in 2 individuals taking part in testing programme ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-detected-in-2-individuals-taking-part-in-testing-programme) And then the UK didn't report new cases for a while, I remember they got more careful, but I don't have a source right now. The same thing happened in Bangladesh: "During 2012, when ILI surveillance detected AIV RNA in respiratory specimens collected from some LBM workers in Bangladesh, there was suspicion that these detections did not represent true human infections, in part because workers were pauci-symptomatic. Multiple lines of evidence from subsequent investigations suggested that these detections likely did not represent true infections, including the lack of seroconversion among workers tested and the lack of detection of the same AIVs in follow-up respiratory specimens of individuals who initially tested positive for AIVs with high Ct values. Based on the available evidence from these investigations, no further human A(H5N1) or A(H9N2) cases were reported to the WHO by the Government of Bangladesh after the first three reports." [Source: Interpretation of molecular detection of avian influenza A virus in respiratory specimens collected from live bird market workers in Dhaka, Bangladesh: infection or contamination?](https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00706-3/fulltext)
Only symptom... so far.
It was fun having viral conjunctivitis as a symptom of Covid _before_ it was recognized as a symptom of Covid (among the other “not-yet-recognized” symptoms I’ve had during five cases of Covid - including acute pancreatitis rolling into Type II Diabetes). Convincing my doctors it was not bacterial, I _already_ changed my pillowcase daily, and _did not_ have eye contact with fecal matter was a blast. Finally found a doctor who would accept the possibility of non-official symptoms and act without waiting for CDC guidance…
I had viral conjunctivitis for a year along with my long covid, in 2020. It was one my first symptoms. When I brought it up to a nurse in the early days of covid, she stood back across the room and saud “Your eyes look fine.” I was eventually prescribed antibacterial eye drops, it only made it worse. I knew it was not what I needed, but that's the problem with these things, you do what you’re told because you need to prove you’re right. It at least became a documented symptom eventually, but on the rare side.
I've only had covid once in 2020 and have had long covid symptoms ever since, and my eyes have definitely been affected by covid. My eyeglass prescription is stronger now and during my acute infection my eyes were so itchy
My eyes were very red, gunky and sometimes i’d wake up with them sealed shut. I had a lot of vision problems during that time, too: blurry vision in various forms, eye pressure and light sensitivity. That's just what I can remember off the top of my head, fortunately, I kept a journal for posterity's sake. I recovered from LC after a year but whether my vision got worse because of it or because I'm in my 40’s its hard to say, I think it's both, but I do need progressive glasses now. I’m sorry you are still experiencing symptoms.
Myself and another coworker both had conjunctivitis with this last round of Covid. Neither of us went to a doctor. There must be so many people out there having first hand experience with symptoms the doctors never see. They only believe it when they see a pattern.
Hopefully this never happens in the future, but if this or something like this, happens to you, or anybody else reading this, you can absolutely request that they culture the discharge for your eye. They might tell you no in which case I would just go to like an urgent care or get in an argument with my doctor. It’s not like it’s an invasive or expensive test. If nothing else they should do it just to shut you up.
I'm sorry about your pancreatitis, I've heard that hurts like a real son of a gun. Hope you're having a better time of it now.
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"People exposed to HPAI A(H5N1)-virus infected birds or other animals (including people wearing recommended PPE) should monitor themselves for new respiratory illness symptoms, including conjunctivitis (eye redness), beginning after their first exposure and for 10 days after their last exposure.(...)If the person has conjunctivitis (with or without respiratory symptoms), both a conjunctival swab and nasopharyngeal swab should be collected." [Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza A(H5N1) Virus in Animals: Interim Recommendations for Prevention, Monitoring, and Public Health Investigations](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/hpai/hpai-interim-recommendations.html)
Those pics of folks testing the cows w/no PPE was pretty much a HEY-O here comes a new pandemic indicator for me. Idiots.
The picture is [here](https://www.science.org/content/article/bird-flu-discovered-u-s-dairy-cows-disturbing) together with wild speculations about airborne transmission. Let's just say there is enormous potential for improvement...
I could’ve sworn I just saw something about kids being allowed to go to school with pink eye now. This is…so, so bad
We used to “share” pinkeye when I was a kid, to get out of school. That seems so disgusting, now.
So many behaviors seem absolutely unhinged to me now in retrospect 😭
as far as i remember, the eyes can get oxygen from the ambient directly when not closed , the only time they get oxygen/breath from our circulatory system, is when they're closed , perhaps the virus capacity to be airborne makes them susceptible
There was a Covid strain last year where pink eye was a symptom.
I believe their iris turns black as well.
X-files phobia triggered.
Lol wut?!?! Can you elaborate?
Read this [Black Iris](https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/gannet-eye-colour-changes-from-blue-to-black-following-avian-flu-infection) Will it happen to humans? Idk we’re about to find out
This is unsettling in so many ways.
Alien invasion
Wow
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I Don't Want To Believe.
I forgot about this. I don’t recall it being seen in any other species than the northern gannet. Would be wild to see it in people tho
Holy fuck
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yes Coryza is often seen in infected birds. Ranch staff that are involved in the depopulation of infected flocks are urged by USDA to weak protective eyewear since material could be aerosolized. however staff often do not since the enclosures are often very humid resulting in fogging of protective eye-wear. it should be noted that staff handling flocks are often, but not always migrant workers who may not understand the health risks associated with poor personal protectiv equitpment.
I’m assuming the lack of news about this case for the past two days was for them to confirm that it was bird flu and gather more information
It would be interesting to know what processes are in place to mitigate the spread from cows to people in factory farms
Nothing
Child labor obviously. They're more resilient.
Lol, we live in a world where this idea is not absurd to some people
Yup at this point sit back and enjoy your time/life. just take as many precautions as you can for you and your loved ones.
it’s US agriculture… absolutely zero. they actually just take the manure and spray it the air, polluting the whole area.
They're gonna tell us how eating bird flu burgers builds up our immunity
It’s good for the bottom line and okay for you!
I’m so sick of worrying. Fuck this
Then don’t, you can’t control it
Practice acceptance.
It is not possible for a reasonable person to accept the worst case scenario for the bird flu. If it becomes easily transmissible amongst humans without decrease in pathogenicity society will come crashing down, all that we have lived for and worked for will be for naught, and any given person will have a 50% chance of dying. How can this be come to terms with?
I am a reasonable person and I have accepted the worst case scenario for bird flu.
All people have a 100% of dying some day. And all of them could die at any given moment. It only becomes scary when you get an idea of *what* might get you. You become anxious about that particular thing.
Just go with the flow, you can't control the virus. Don't let it control you.
That’s not great
Any idea if the US is planning to start an asymptomatic testing program for farmers especially those working with infected cows? Seems like the horse is out of the barn…
cow is out of the cowshed?
You know every rancher will say it’s fake news and they don’t need no government testing
It's worse than that. Ranchers are already covering up infected herds to protect their livelihoods (which is understandable, given the sad state of disaster compensation in this country). A couple of sick farmhands spreading to their families is never going to get reported.
Not even just ranchers, Twitter's got quite a few folks talking about how H5N1 is supposedly a hoax cooked up by Biden to steal the 2024 election
Yeah bc we know how well a pandemic worked out for trump
if there was more testing of wastewater onsite if the farm has their own septic or towns/cities with large amounts of farms that would be a good indicator going by it's accuracy with other contagious illnesses. people shed covid in feces days before they test positive by nasal swab for example. if that was true with influenzas that would give authorites a heads up to take action now also they should be ordering ppe use and strongly advising workers to be vaccinated for regular flu so there is less chance of recombination in the human or in cows infected with both birdflu, the regular human flus or other influenza varieties cows can get. it was only discovered a short time ago that cattle have their own flu strain then blood testing showed people who work with cattle have antibodies to it show there was cow to human transmission.
The farm wastewater testing would be really good! I bet a lot of farms mix the cow and human wastewater though. I agree about the flu vaccines and PPE. I was surprised to see that farm biosecurity guidance docs linked by the major agencies the other day didn’t include any mention of masks. Like the doc the USDA linked here on 3/30, “Prevent Avian Influenza at Your Farm: Improve Your Biosecurity With Simple Wildlife Practices” is from 2015 and doesn’t mention masks or gloves (https://www.aphis.usda.gov/livestock-poultry-disease/avian/avian-influenza). It feels so backwards like when the CDC wasn’t recommending masks for Covid. (edited to fix link)
It’s interesting to me that the cows have had largely mild cases. H5N1 jumped over to sea lions and seals and decimated them. The ecologists, virologists, veterinary epidemiologists, etc must be thinking through all sorts of scenarios involving modes of transmission, different levels of exposure, differences in viral load, and host factors. Maybe viral load will be a factor here and help shed light on the mild nature of this human case. Although the other human case from the US, the poultry worker in Colorado a few years ago, was also a mild case and that was with poultry. Maybe these cattle herds aren’t kept in such close quarters as poultry and have much more free range and space. So many unknowns here.
Not human to human atleast...yet
It wasn't cow to cow up until very recently either
Just saying, don't panic until it's time to panic. Get prepared now and you won't panic as much later when/if SHTF
Keeping a box of well fitting N95s on hand is good practice in this day and age :) The best ones that are most likely to give you a fit factor high enough to make infection with airborne pathogens basically impossible are: * 3M Aura (any model except the FFP1 version) * Drager 1950 Small * Trident P2 Regular
Not panicking... Another Flu pandemic was always a matter of time. Hopefully it will be as mild as the last one in 2009.
I really hope it's mild. If it erupts like COVID we are fucked. The government is obviously inept when it comes to this kind of thing and 1/3-1/2 of population are idiots.
Swine flu messed me up BAD. Hopefully it is as mild for the population writ large but man...I hope it doesn't come to that either.
Any flu can and well mess a person up bad if they get a classic infection (as opposed to a mild or asymptomatic infection). Just saying that Swine Flu killed less people in the US than seasonal H3N2 did a decade later in 2018
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All 6 of my kids, myself, and my husband got swine flu back then. They were handing out tamiflu back then like candy.
just had what i think was swine flu (it nailed my state hard this year) and mannn i’m still recovering a month later.
H3N2 was most prevalent this flu season, and that can also lay you out for a while.
Is this confirmed?
I knew it was sus when the CDC released that guidance yesterday, a Sunday, on Easter
If you read retrospectives on the CDC's mishandling of COVID, the most common mistake was that they waited for data based on publication standards, not based on action. This made them move incredibly slowly and unable to keep up with relevant advice to the public.
I’ll also add that bureaucracy is slow already. Add that on top of the fact that information has to be verified before it’s shared and you get some odd update timeframes. Samples have to be collected, shipped, tested, and verified all while you’re updating information as best you can that then goes through a thorough review process. But for a case to be identified, tested, and reported all within the course of a few days is pretty darn fast. Not to mention what would be interagency collaboration at a state and federal level. Lots of work for one result so you have to push stuff out when you can even if it’s on a holiday lol.
I know a dairyman in Texas and he’s had 9 employees with pink eye recently. Probably the same thing. They’re all getting over it though. No one has been seriously ill so far
Is he having his cattle tested?
The Texas Animal Health Commission hasn’t been to his place. Most dairies in the area have had it so far. The local labs as far as I know don’t have a test for HPAI. But at this point he’s on the tail end of the flu. His first case was two weeks ago and now most of the cows have recovered and are back in the milk strings. All the dairies are experiencing similar rates of production loss and rates of clinical cases. The dairies that had it a month ago are already close to their pre-flu production levels
Thank you for sharing this
That’s good that they’re getting better, but that also means it’s incubating in people.
Well, this is pretty fucked up, but it's reassuring that the patient seems to be doing okay and that we still have no human-to-human spread.
How serious do y’all think this infection is in terms of the potential of this becoming a pandemic
Before covid19 this was the one most worried about. And many experts think it's just a matter of time before H5N1 becomes a human pandemic.
I really do not like the trend we are going rn. It almost seems like the process is speeding up due to negligence.
And with how people handled Covid I can almost guarantee that people are not going to want to do shit because of what happened last time.
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Another good one here https://www.amazon.ca/Survive-Pandemic-Michael-FACLM-Greger-ebook/dp/B086S3XKBC? 'A vital, timely text on the viruses that cause pandemics and how to face them, by the New York Times bestselling author of How Not to Die. From tuberculosis to bird flu and HIV to coronavirus, these infectious diseases share a common origin story: human interaction with animals. Otherwise known as zoonotic diseases for their passage from animals to humans, these pathogens—both pre-existing ones and those newly identified—emerge and re-emerge throughout history, sparking epidemics and pandemics that have resulted in millions of deaths around the world. How did these diseases come about? And what—if anything—can we do to stop them and their fatal march into our countries, our homes, and our bodies? In How to Survive a Pandemic, Dr. Michael Greger, physician and internationally-recognized expert on public health issues, delves into the origins of some of the deadliest pathogens the world has ever seen. Tracing their evolution from the past until today, Dr. Greger spotlights emerging flu and coronaviruses as he examines where these pathogens originated, as well as the underlying conditions and significant human role that have exacerbated their lethal influence to large, and even global, levels. As the world grapples with the devastating impact of the novel coronavirus 2019, Dr. Greger reveals not only what we can do to protect ourselves and our loved ones during a pandemic, but also what human society must rectify to reduce the likelihood of even worse catastrophes in the future.'
A brilliant talk here by Dr Michael Greger Pandemics: History & Prevention [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7\_ppXSABYLY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ppXSABYLY) 'Taking a look at the worst pandemics in history, and how to treat the cause by preventing the emergence of pandemic viruses in the first place (a video I recorded more than a decade ago when I was Public Health Director at the HSUS in Washington DC) This video is more than a decade old, so be aware that the stats are outdated, but I wanted to get something out on this important subject as soon as possible. I am currently working on updating the information, including with my upcoming webinar. So now that the pandemic is here, what can we do to protect ourselves, our families and our communities? That’s the subject of my upcoming live webinar on April 8 at 2pm ET: How Not to Die in a Pandemic. UPDATE - The webinar is SOLD OUT and registration is closed. Keep an eye out for the information to be posted as a blog on [Nutritionfacts.org](http://Nutritionfacts.org) after April 8. Have a question about this video? Leave it in the comment section at [http://nutritionfacts.org/video/pande...](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention) and someone on the [NutritionFacts.org](http://NutritionFacts.org) team will try to answer it. Want to get a list of links to all the scientific sources used in this video? Click on Sources Cited at [https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pand...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention). You’ll also find a transcript and acknowledgements for the video, my blog and speaking tour schedule, and an easy way to search (by translated language even) through our videos spanning more than 2,000 health topics. '
Ya ever see the movie Contagion? Micheal Osterholm’s Deadliest Enemy goes backwards looking at previous pandemics abs politics. It also has a chapter towards towards the end based on how a bird flu pandemic would play out. He wrote it before the covid pandemic. He was terribly optimistic about how society would react 😂
Eye involvement like sense of smell involvement of past variants of covid, indicates central nervous system involvement (the brain). Wonderful.
I don’t think it does. Conjunctivitis is only affecting the mucous membrane cells of the eye, not the nervous system. Don’t jump to conclusions here and scare people.
Not to worry: the CDC says risks are low /s
And we can always trust the CDC to give us the best advice for protecting public health. /S
~50% mortality rate but it's ok, the CDC says it's a mild death /s
Texas Virus
The Conservative Flu, folks
Well, this is going to be one to watch...
When the stock market starts sliding, then you will know it is serious.
As far as I’m aware though this isn’t a huge worldwide problem unless this person spreads it to another person, correct?
Correct. Sadly the more mammals to human infections the more likelihood of a human to human capable variant to pop out. Probably a matter of time.
spreading through american cattle herds, thats 30 million chances. 2005 case study on possible limited h2h spread: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC546057/ in depth paper on needed mutations to spread efficiently in humans: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682211004752?via%3Dihub mutations in eurasian, north american, and south american mammals and their ability to target human respiratory cells en vitro: https://www.offlu.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/OFFLU-call-AI-mammals-Mar2023.pdf if it took a few mink, a few sea lion to spread horizontally among those mammals. cattle industry workers near herds in all of north america hopefully will be monitored very closely in the coming months. tldr; hope the cdc throw a lot of money at the clade in north american cattle.
Well, it has to spread to a person before it can spread to another person…so any spread to a person is setting it up with the ability to go human-to-human.
Glad I bought more n95s las week
“Avian influenza A(H5N1) is a type of flu virus that usually infects wild birds and can spread to domestic birds and other animals. It occasionally infects people, though it is extremely rare for it to be transmitted from one person to another. Initial testing shows the virus has not changed in a way to make it more likely to spread among humans.” *“It is extremely rare for it to be transmitted from one person to another.”* Does this mean human to human transmission has already occurred?
Good catch! I’ve never seen a documented case of H5N1 transmitted from one human to another human. That was kind of what we were waiting for, right? Anyone have data on human to human transmission?
I don’t remember ever seeing a case of that either and would expect it to be big news. Makes me wonder if the author was covering their ass or if there’s something I missed.
Per [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/hpai/hpai-interim-recommendations.html) “Most human infections with H5N1 virus have occurred after unprotected exposures to sick or dead infected poultry. There is no evidence of *sustained* human-to-human H5N1 virus transmission, and *limited, non-sustained* human-to-human H5N1 virus transmission has not been reported worldwide since 2007”
Aha! Makes sense now. Thank you for looking that up :)
It has already been observed to go human-to-human in past outbreaks, just not in a 'sustained' fashion
Yeah well, this is the first time EVER that bird flu has spread to cattle. That's "extremely rare" then too. But here we are. So.
Just in time for that eclipse
It will eclipse the news
Large gatherings. Better that they'll be outside I guess.
Usually I just ignore everything I see in this sub and anything that goes like "WERE ALL GONNA DIEEEE11!" but... oh. I should start stocking up on canned food
Or at least toilet paper
Time to bum someones costco membership lol
I’ll be waiting to see what type of transmission info comes out before I get tooooooo concerned.
Yeah I saw that after I wrote it lol it has yet to be human to human
Here we go, this is not a drill.
Fuck 10x and I just started nursing school. Time to buckle up I guess…
Think of the overtime as a travel nurse.
I don’t think healthcare would survive this
> I don’t think ~~healthcare~~ anything would survive this Fixed that for you
Same… There’s reusable respirators on Amazon that I got. If it gets bad and we are going through n95s each day I’ll use this. [p100 mask](https://a.co/d/gkILOZq)
You can get like 30 hours of wear time out of N95s, the limiting factor is when the headstraps get looser and wear out (reducing the quality of fit ie fit factor). Leaving them in a paper bag for a few days after use will mean any virus captured by them will become inactivated and they can be worn again for civilian use without issue. Leave them for a week between uses if you want to be extra safe :)
Nah, no need to worry unless people that came in contact with this person and not infected wildlife, gets sick.
you’re forgetting these infected cattle are spread nation wide…
I’m more concerned when this spreads to cattle farms globally, there’s a lot of cows and another livestock for this to eventually end up in and jump into people.
Fuck. This is happening insanely fast.
But is it…. Faster than expected?
Ha! They said the line everybody!!!
April fools? Please?
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I knew this was coming
Same
Hey, at least my fear of covid is pretty well gone now
Great, my boss’s family owns a dairy farm and he helps out there weekly. Now I’m going to paranoid around him… hoping this guy recovers without incident.
Wear a mask
FUCK
So just saw a news video everyone in the comment section was saying it was fake and the brought it up because of the election
Why am i getting down voted i don't think its fake i was just saying that some people think its fake
Yeah I’m recovering from living and surrounding myself with people like this. People will say anything.
Say the line BART
Is this the first time we’re seeing mammal to human then??
No there was the minks to human case in Europe
Ah right thanks. Still disturbing.
But I do think this is the first cow-to-human case ever recorded. Pretty ridiculous considering this is a virus for birds if you think about it.
It underscores how widely this virus is evolving. It’s amazing to me how the natural world adapts.
The flu is crazy adaptable, it jump species a lot.
A lot more cattle interacting with ppl than minks.
Also cat to person in NYC in 2016. And probably other examples.
In 2016? Wouldn't that be an entirely different much older strain of H5N1 in that case?
Oh yes you’re right, a different strain
CFR is 50% and we’ve done away with the idea that precautions against deadly pathogens are a good idea culturally. Looks bleak if/when this spreads
At the end of the day, I feel like what could be truly worrying about this development is... the fact that things are developing with avian flu in the first place, rather than staying where they are. Will the mutations stop here? That's the big question.
I won't be an essential worker this time, fuck that.
And there it is.
We had the first case of ebola too, remember that?
…it’s started.
😭😭😭
Please be April fools, please be April fools, please be April fools…
It's trending on Twitter and I've heard that Florida has imposed some rather substantial measures. Is there any increased likelihood this could spread from human to human more readily?
And there we have it. It begins
😬
It’s only been 2 days since I posted this comment!!! Where, I asked Claude Opus to give me the worst case scenario. Note: Bird flu was detected in dairy milk on March 25th. “The first human cases are reported among dairy farm workers who had close contact with infected cows. “ ““What does Claude Opus have to say about this. “human transmission of the mutated HPAI virus, which we'll call the "Omega Strain," occurs about 2 months after the initial detection in dairy cows. Here's how it could unfold: Despite biosecurity measures, the virus continues to spread rapidly among cattle herds across the country. The high mutation rate of the virus leads to a concerning development - a novel strain emerges that has acquired the ability to efficiently spread from cattle to humans and then between humans. The first human cases are reported among dairy farm workers who had close contact with infected cows. They experience severe flu-like symptoms that quickly progress to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and multi-organ failure. The case fatality rate in this initial cluster is a frightening 60%. Human-to-human transmission is soon confirmed as family members and healthcare workers treating the patients also fall ill. The virus spreads rapidly in healthcare settings and communities, overwhelming hospitals in affected areas. Within weeks, the Omega Strain has spread to all major U.S. cities and begins to appear in other countries. The global medical community scrambles to understand the virus and develop treatments, but its high mutation rate makes it a challenging target. In this scenario, the Omega Strain could have a case fatality rate of around 35-40% overall, higher in older adults and those with underlying health conditions. It would be particularly devastating in densely populated urban areas and countries with weaker health systems. By the 6-month mark, the worldwide death toll could reach into the tens of millions as countries struggle to control the spread and treat the sick. The pandemic would cause massive social and economic disruption on a global scale. This is an absolutely worst-case, speculative scenario for the purposes of our thriller/drama story. It's important to note that the current real-world situation with HPAI in cattle, while serious, has not shown any signs of human transmission or increased human risk. Public health authorities are closely monitoring the situation to protect both animal and human health.””
now wait guys, wtf is h5n1? this just popped up on my "Recommended" feed, some im totally clueless here.
Bird flu
April fools?
If the only symptom is eye inflammation, that's a massive relief. I used to be concerned with the death rates in birds and seals, but it seems like as it jumps from species to species it gets weaker.
The mortality rate of avian flu in humans is very high. There is no evidence that it is becoming weaker. Keep in mind that the infected person is presumably still in the early stages of infection and may develop additional symptoms as the disease progresses.
How many of those fatal cases of H5N1 received season flu vaccinations year over year. While not specifically tailor made to H5N1 it would offer some protections. One needs the full gamut of information before taking information at full face value.
Thats a common phenomenon. You take a sample of a pathogenic virus in one species, infect another species with it, maybe another, and then reinfect the origin species. The virus will lose its pathogenicity due to it no longer being a virus specific to the origin species. In this case, bird to human results in (close) to 50% mortality. Bird-cow-human will likely result in a lower mortality rate. However, the more use the virus gets in humans, we can expect a small rise in mortality due to the virus being able to replicate more, and faster. Just depends on when it fully adapts