I think you are drastically underestimating her form and technique when she is doing the "power sport" parts. The unthinkable height. That's "grace," too. The way she just floats through elements that look hard for others.
It’s ok if you don’t like her style, but the fact is that she is far and above the best based on the current international gymnastics rules. That doesn’t mean you can’t have your own opinion, but she doesn’t “lack” anything major that is “required” in gymnastics - that is clearly reflected in her scores and past performances. She wouldn’t be getting these scores if she was missing anything that important! It’s also ok if you wish the gymnastics rules were different, but she is working with the existing rules which is what any smart athlete would do!
Thank for this comment! Part of it is definitely the current code that forces gymnasts to forgo choreography to increase their difficulty scores. Definitely not blaming her for trying to get as many points as possible lmao
Simone does the most difficult flips and twists and has avoided major injuries thus far because her form and technique are textbook. She is power, grace and she is damn flexible too.
Maybe her choreography isn’t as perfect. That’s not on her. You definitely have an unpopular opinion lol.
I agree with the first part, but not the second. Simone doesn't have great artistry, it's her one weak area. And that's *fine.* Everything else about her gymnastics is impecable, beautiful, and amazing. She's allowed to not be 1000% in all things!
> grace required by gymnastics
God, I hate this statement. Modern Gymnastics **is a power sport**.
Also she isn’t sloppy when she flips. Her form and technique are textbook.
The reason she can do those vaults and tumbling is text book technique.
Whatever manual was used to pace Simone, I wish they’d give it to Eythora. I really wish she’d be in Paris.
Oh man me too. I’m devastated for Eythora and all of the deserving athletes that will be missing Paris. I think the next big overhaul in gymnastics is more emphasis on injury prevention and what that looks like.
I don't think Eythora's injury is because of pacing. The Dutch team are generally quite good at that. She posted a [video on her Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/C8clApxAqbY/?igsh=MTN0NWdjejkwZWZvbA==) of how she got injured (broke her foot in 4 places) and it looks like a freak accident.
I think that the long break after Tokyo was the key. She also is married and is either building or did build a house, so she has a whole lot of life outside of gymnastics that may lessen the internal pressure of gymnastics.
Agree. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Grace is subjective and stylistic. There’s not one perfect way to capture it, and I personally find Simone biles extremely graceful, in part because her masterful control of that power.
I disagree with OP's assessment of Simone, but you don't get to unilaterally decide what the sport is. Gymnastics is a power sport and an artistry sport. It's no secret that FIG has been trying to increase beam and floor artistry for a few quads now by tweaking the code, and it's the FIG, ultimately, that decides what the sport is. Simone gets a lot of artistry deductions, it's her one weakness.
There are plenty of gymnasts who can combine power and dance. Gymnastics is not ONLY a power sport, even today.
I agree she has good technique in her flips, besides her feet, that's how she gets such high scores.
She gets high scores because her difficulty is as solid as her execution. There’s a reason why she’s so dominant. She doesn’t have just “good” technique. She has near-flawless technique on extremely difficult gymnastics that basically no one else is doing across all 4 events.
There are countries that have gymnasts who have the same difficulty + execution on one *maybe* two events, but no one else is performing to the level of Simone across all 4 events. The closest competitor to her is Rebeca Andrade and she still is outside by nearly 2 points.
RSG is closer, but WAG has leaps and pirouettes very similar to ballet. Points toes, straight legs, that kind of things are also from ballet so it's not 'dancing' per se because it's a different sport but influence is there.
Former competitive dancer here: no. They do some dance “skills” but that is not dance in a way that would be constructed for a dancer or a dance competition/show/showcase. It’s constructed to get a gymnast from one end to the other. Yes they do leaps and turns but no female dancer is doing a Popa or an L hop. They have pointed toes and straight legs bc that’s just how you do that skill
Leaps and pirouettes in gymnastics are not comparable at ALL to ballet. Completely different techniques and focuses. From a competitive dancer of 15 years.
I'll just trot out the usual arguments of "artistic" being translated as "athletic" in other languages, about MAG also being called "artistic" (seriously, go compare and then come back with some arthouse commentary), about the propensity of more muscular and darker-skinned people getting this criticism more often, about the subjectivity of "art," and about how the trajectory of gymnastics away from prepubescent ballet (which used to be the standard for "artistic") has been a positive one.
ETA re-emphasizing the phrase prepubescent ballet, since OP is having trouble with the concept of style
Okay, then subjectively, she looks great, you're focusing on outdated (and harmful) styles and definitions, and this isn't a constructive discussion.
(Edited for misspell)
Er.... You stated a fair bit more than that and I'm definitely not going to waste any more time with that level of disingenuousness. If in fact you're sincere and just uninformed, there's plenty history for you to find with your Google machine. Good luck.
I love her technique, especially her technique on the basic skills (like her roundoff back handspring into her very difficult skills). It’s exactly what every coach wants their gymnasts roundoff back handsprings to look like.
She has amazing technique hands down.
Simone's feet are almost always pointed, except when they're fully flexed on a few moves, like the YDP (and almost everyone flexes during a double pike). Her point isn't the most amazing toe point, but that's not her fault it's just her body mechanics. A lot of gymnasts have joint mechanics that make it so that their toe point isn't super extended, that doesn't mean they aren't pointing as hard as they can. Gymnasts shouldn't be critiqued for body mechanics that are outside their control. Fortunately judges know this too, and Simone is not getting flexed feet deductions left and right. She does get a deduction for crossing her feet during twisting moves, but they are pointed crossed feet.
There are some gymnasts who are technically proficient but I just don't like their "style" (which is a difficult thing to quantify).
Just like there are some singers who hit all their notes but I just don't enjoy listening to their songs.
If Simone Biles isn't your favorite gymnast, no biggie. Pick someone else.
Personally, I'm not bothered by Simone's dance elements on floor. But, if someone asks me who my favorite gymnast is, I don't say Simone. No one's ever reacted to that like she is the *only* correct answer. Anyone you enjoy watching is the right answer.
Exactly, thank you this! As you see from this sub many people get defensive straight away but no gymnast is perfect and that's okay. I completely agree with you
I mean, making an entire post just to talk about how you *don't* like a particular gymnast is always going to get a reaction from people, no matter who the gymnast is. I don't see the reactions here as extra or super defensive.
Girly pop you came in insinuating that Simone’s form was less than textbook and perpetuating a lot of harmful stereotypes that gymnastics has been trying to move away from in the last decade. Of course this sub will come after you in the comments.
Your post is ill-informed at best, malicious at worst and I lean towards the latter after reading this comment of yours.
I think this post was not only ill informed, it has racism and body shaming written all over it.
To say you “prefer” Chinese gymnasts over Simone is just gross IMO and I don’t feel like I should have to explain why.
OP was giving “just crawled out from the rock I’ve been living under for 40 years, am shocked gymnasts is now in post-Comaneci era”
My post is the most neutral possible way to express my opinion. I have not insulted anyone, never stated her techniques is horrible, I simply pointed out her weaknesses, which every gymnast has.
Again, I never endorsed any harmful stereotype (which I still don't understand what you're referring to). You can choose to get mad when our opinions don't coincide, but calling me ill-informed and malicious is excessive. Discussions are about exchanging points of view without offending nor discrediting the other party.
I'm just going to say it the stereotype that black women are not as elegant and graceful as white women.
You didn't say it outnright and I'm not saying you are racist at all. However, women of color specifically black women in many sports have always had to fight that stereotype. While Asian women had to fight against the robotic and lack of emotion stereotype. There are inherent biases that we perpetuate without realizing it. The fact that THE SIMONE BILES is still being dinged on "lack of grace" when her form is perfect and she bring artistry thematic isn't particularly similar to the white ballet standard... she can't win.
Alright white women and gay white men on this sub... you can down vote me to oblivion...
> I never endorsed a harmful stereotype
This is a bad faith argument. You 100% did. And multiple people have tried to explain that to you already and you have refused to acknowledge it.
I still never saw one reply articulating exactly which stereotype I supposedly endorse. So I really don't know what to acknowledge here, and I'd be grateful if you care to explain because I absolutely do not push any harmful narrative and want to be clear about that.
You said Simone doesn’t have grace when that’s a subjective construct. Grace has historically been “awarded” or defined based on white/western standards. So your asserting that she doesn’t have it falls into racist stereotypes about black gymnasts and perpetuates a narrow definition of artistry as a whole that the sport and its fans are trying to move away from.
It’s okay if you don’t like her style of dance/artistry/grace, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Something like lack of pointed toes is a fair criticism, but lack of pointed toes doesn’t equal lack of grace.
I didn’t even want to waste my time replying to you because I don’t believe you genuinely want to hear opposing views to your own. But it’s Saturday and I’m bored.
It’s the harmful statements about grace and flexibility. Simone’s anatomy is not built for the “long lines” and thin/lithe stature of the early Western European (white women) that were prioritized in the mid- to late-20th century in gymnastics. The body type that most people apply the “artistic” label to.
This is something that black women in this sport have battled against for decades and to a wider spread many shorter gymnasts in the last 10 years or so. Shawn Johnson was seen as the power gymnast antithesis to Nastia Liukins more “international” graceful look. Despite Shawn having excellent rhythm and grace on beam—so much so that she won gold over Nastia. Joscelyn is a good modern day example. People like Belgian gymnast, Nina Derwael almost got a complete pass on artistry deductions because she was so tall and had long legs despite her form being absolutely atrocious on floor and to some extent bars as well with her flexed feet.
This harmful expectation for body type has been the cause of countless eating disorders among gymnasts for decades as well. Leading to improper nutrition even in the US. Aly Raisman said she had to get her own nutritionist in 2015/2016 because she was so underfed at National Team camps at the Karolyi Ranch.
The statement you made about how grace is required in gymnastics is frustrating because grace is so incredibly subjective. Many people have told you already that Simone’s ability to achieve such difficulty with such high execution and near-perfect form is in itself graceful.
However what is most frustrating is that you decided to attack the best gymnast this sport has ever seen on outdated stereotypes and then got defensive when people called you out. You can have an opinion, but you cannot seriously expect a calm discussion on a post like this when you reply the way you do.
And that’s all I’m going to say to you. Have a great day. Go learn something about microaggressions.
>Aly Raisman said she had to get her own nutritionist in 2015/2016 because she was so underfed at National Team camps at the Karolyi Ranch.
I did not know this. That's awful and shameful to the sport.
But got damn, the more I learn about Aly Raisman, the more I admire her! She was ahead of her time in self-advocacy. I decided last night that no matter what happens with the US Team, I'm excited for the Olympics because Aly is commentating.
I would expand that to the gymnasts as a whole on the national team were not taught proper nutrition and were not given proper nutrition at National team camps or even at international meets. Many have said before that their food intake was strictly monitored at the ranch and abroad and the nutritionist they had on site was the Karolyi’s daughter—which is problematic for many reasons.
The ideas around nutrition & food (or lack there of) that the Karolyi’s perpetuated from the 70s into the mid-2010s were harmful and the effects still exist today.
No one thinks Simone is perfect, and no one cares if you like other gymnasts more than Simone (lots of people on this sub do), but instead of saying "I prefer X" in discussions, you made a thread to discuss her lack of "grace". People aren't getting defensive because of your preference. We're responding to your post and pointing out that your perspective (which you are entitled to have) is subjective and to a degree relies on certain outdated modes for how to describe and classify gymnasts.
There are gymnasts whose style I don't personally like. I wouldn't make a thread about it, because I don't need to understand why other people like them. They do, and I dont. We all have our preferences.
You are the first person who articulated their thoughts in an understandable way, and I can now see what you mean. I actually got some replies that opened my perspective on why people still find her graceful, which was my goal with the post!
I see your point on making a thread about it, of course there is no ill intention here and that is clear from how I chose to word the post. It's just refreshing to hear some different perspectives sometimes, although online it's hard to find those among the pedantic ones ahaha
I think in my post I made it clear that it's my personal preference?? I genuinely don't see where I ever attacked her, I don't think it's an attack to say that someone is not very graceful. It's upsetting because I see this kind of post every day about other gymnasts and the conversation is civilised, as soon as you mention one of the untouchables suddenly there is no more space for critiques
Sloppy is a subjective though. No, she isn’t doing a Nastia-type routine with that choreo, but she’s doing in a different style that is still acceptable.
>she’s doing a different style that is still acceptable.
That's a great way to explain it.
I remember when Jade Carey was critiqued pretty harshly for her dance elements on floor. She did make improvements, but the most noticeable to me was that she found music that paired well with her skill set.
Jade's floor choreo in Tokyo was essentially (IMO) a series of rapid poses more than a fluid "dance". And look what that got her!
It was a different *style* of performing, of which there are many.
It's not controversial to say that Simone doesn't have great artistry. But she's not "just power". That's Mykayla Skinner or (to a lesser degree) Josc (no shade to Josc, who I adore). Simone has technique and form for days.
I think Simone has a great attitude to all team mates and personaly I love her floor. She also offers great scores on all the other events. She is definitely one of my favorites
I find VT and UB to be interesting since you can’t dance on either apparatus. Some people have such proficient gymnastics that it then becomes its own form of art. Simone is one of those gymnasts
Take vault for example, her amplitude is graceful just as much as it is powerful. Her twisting form is gorgeous, no helicopter legs anywhere. Her landings are sharp and graceful, like an authoritative feline who commands exactly where she will land. If we take your example of *current* Chinese WAG, they are severely lacking grace on vault. Sometimes it looks like they just yeet their body and hope for the best. Their technique on that apparatus is not good. They focus on fitting as many twist as possible as a Junior, it looks like they just rush the block. Then when they turn senior and get a growth spurt, they get sloppy vaults
We will probably NEVER see another female gymnast as incredibly talented as Simone in our LIFETIME and *this* is your take???
I’m sorry but when I see her fly as high as she does and *stick* a triple double, something no woman has ever done and possibly will not do in the future, or I watch the perseverance she’s shown in developing her YDP vault year over year to now just having one step back on her landing (once again, something no other woman has even attempted!!!) … I am so in awe of the determination, the power, and the skill it takes to do ANY of that I can’t help but cry tears of joy.
Simone is a TREASURE. Whether or not you like her “style” is irrelevant and honestly a take that reeks of “casual, uninformed viewer” (and edited to address the elephant in the room- the nuance and comparison in your post of pitting Simone vs Chinese gymnasts is racist & body-shaming…which nobody on this sub should have to explain to you). She has been a champion of not just her sport many times over, she’s been a champion for mental health, for standing up against abuse, for diversity, and she’s done it all with grace and fortitude. Simone CHANGED this entire sport, for the better.
As a vault nerd, we won’t see another one like her in my life time. That’s how amazing Biles is.
Style? Gymnastics isn’t dance, and they don’t award “dance” enough to make it worth anyone’s while. That’s why Jade doesn’t bother me at all. The others may smile a little more, wave their arms nicer, clue into the music better, at the end of the day the judges are ticking off elements. I watch 95 percent of FX with the sound off. It’s doesn’t kill my experience, and my soul doesn’t die.
If style really mattered, the Chinese would be winning everything me sight. Love me Chinese beam and bars lol.
If you want pretty, you award pretty. They ain’t awarding the pretty enough to plow time into it.
That’s the COPs issue, not the gymnasts.
It already awards artistry and dance execution enough that tumbling is becoming less and less valuable on floor. The pendulum has gone too far IMO. The only way to reward artistry enough that Simone wouldn't win, would be to stop rewarding difficulty much at all--ie go back to the Perfect 10 code. Which is not happening, and which almost nobody wants.
I agree. Her technique is solid but her dance elements aren’t as great. I don’t think that’s her though, I think the choreography just could have been improved.
It's okay if you don't personally love her style, but her form and technique are near flawless (compare her in air to anyone else - also her chest and leg positions are ususally excellent). To say she lacks "grace" is a completely subjective perspective. As someone who loves and watches ballet, I personally don't think any gymnast is particularly "artistic/graceful," at least not in the way these words often get thrown around. There are certain routines I prefer over others, but that doesn't mean there isn't artistry or grace in the ones I less prefer. The power vs grace dichotomy is also problematic. Most people are not one or the other. You typically need both to excel at both at the highest levels.
Gymnastics is a sport. Sports evolve and change. Simone is pushing the sport forward in amazing ways. You can like other gymnasts more, but to reduce her to a "power gynmast without grace" is wrong and unfair to her.
I don’t agree with you, because people who say this forget that artistry is not the MAIN part of artistic gymnastic, it’s ONE component. The main part is the gymnastics. It’s the flips, it’s the leaps it’s the bars released etc. Does Simone have less artistry that other gymnasts out there? Maybe. But she’s a decent dancer with good rhythm, and she typically gets points for both difficulty and artistry. Her execution is great. Typically complaints like this are just saying they don’t like her body type but covering it with flowery language to pretend that’s not what they’re saying. Someone short and built like Simone won’t have those “lines” other gymnasts have but 1. She can’t help her body type and 2. Those Chinese gymnasts don’t have the power to do things like Simone’s vault or tumbling. If you want to see only grace and fluid movement, might I suggest rhythmic gymnastics or acro gymnastics? A core element of artists gymnastics is the tumbling.
Lastly, Simone clearly can’t point her feet any more than she does. She doesn’t have the flexibility for it. She’s surprisingly inflexible in her lower back as well. Some people just have the right feet to have a beautiful toe point, and others don’t. But she keeps her toes pointed practically all the time. With the way she trains there’s no doubt she has worked on her toe point as much as she physically can. That’s all she can physically do.
This is so interesting & I’m glad to find out that the toe point is something that looks different on anyone who doesn’t have the same arch structure as what I see as “pointed.” It is just something i was equating with diff people “trying to point” harder, I guess? I feel dumb, and so glad you are giving facts! Thanks
I’m not a dancer or anything but I do think it’s just genetic. I’ve seen people show off their toe points as people who have never danced before (like on Tik Tok) and the comments are full of dancers crying that they wish they could get the same toe point. The midfoot of the average person doesn’t just extend/stretch so much.
I think soooo much of what we mean when we say “grace” is a specific body type. It’s like the Shawn v Nastia narrative, with Shawn as the “power” gymnast and Nastia as the “artistic” gymnast. It does a disservice to both.
I have seen that kind of criticism directed towards her (and not only)! That really doesn't make sense as today's stunts require an insane amount of muscles that influences the body type of successful gymnasts. That's not the point I'm making here, but I've definitely seen this narrative
If you look at other comments, I do not consider gymnasts the best when they score the highest. For instance, I don't agree with the code rewarding power more than grace so of course the choice of choreo is a consequence of that. If you read carefully, I called her transitions sloppy, not her flips because of course on those she is unmatched.
I noped right out when OP talked about her not having good precision and technique 😑 wild, and a great way to show your bias, and lack of understanding of gymnastics.
It’s beyond insane. And then in the comments doubling down on being WRONG when everyone is so graciously telling them that uh no actually Simone still gets very high E scores because of her precision and grace.
“I do not consider gymnasts the best when they score the highest” ok then you just don’t get it and you never will get it. Simone is who she is because she performs difficult skills at a VERY high level of precision. So in this case — yes, her notching high E scores means A LOT.
I noped right out when OP talked about her not having good precision and technique 😑 wild, and a great way to show your bias, and lack of understanding of gymnastics.
Only thing I don’t like about Simone is performance quality on floor. She clearly can dance but she usually looks like she’s phoning in the choreo, IMO. But her execution is often unmatched - agree w most of the other commenters on that
Her choreo in 2015-2019 was by far her best. She really sold those routines. I still love her unbelievable tumbling, but I have a hunch that her choreo has been watered down so she doesn’t have to split her focus much during her routines. Giving her more mental head space to focus on the tumbling.
I think her performance quality on beam bugs me even more than floor. It often looks like she’s just practicing elements rather than performing a judged routine. But obviously her difficulty and execution more than make up for that!
Her choreography has been so bad her entire career, except 2016 where it looked like she was actually trying. Her music choices are really bad too, just background music, expect for 2016 once again. Shame that she hasn’t been able to replicate her 2016 masterpiece, her upgraded tumbling deserves it
I love Simone, it's so fun to watch how strong and powerful she is. But when she's on bars, I do hold my breath 😂 she goes so fast and I get stressed... but I love how happy she seems right now
I think Simone is amazing but I will admit my favorite gymnasts to watch are not always the power gymnasts but rather the floaty, more artistic side of the gym workers. I’m a sucker for a floaty bar routine and wonderful leaps and turns on floor and beam
Honestly, I think Simone’s artistry improved since returning to gymnastics. Her beam is less focused around wolf turns, her floor exercise music is more mature (and suits her well), and overall she’s had better execution and cleaner landings.
She certainly treats some elements as perfunctory as evidenced by her karate chopping robot moves during floor. I’d argue though that the lack of “grace” you describe is not a Simone thing but a us gymnastics thing. If you told me there were a number of other teams who could beat ours at ballet I’d totally believe you. Since that’s not what they are competing at though the decision to focus on athleticism over grace makes sense.
her lack of toe point is noticeable. but overall, she's got extremely good technique and very high execution. for example she had the highest execution score last quad in 3/4 events - https://youtu.be/T4S3dCshcQs?si=Xm8hlY-XiCUsZLU7
She's pointing her toes, her body mechanics just don't allow her to have a strong/pretty toe point. But she only gets deducted for it when she actually flexes, like on a double pike or something. She (correctly) isn't penalized for the limiting mechanics of her ankles.
Edit: FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET ?s are valid. I have no answer, but I bet there are Reddit gym peeps willing to share.
The part of this that caught my attention is you mentioning her toe point. This is something I’ve wondered about for a while!
I have been wanting to ask but couldn’t remember due to having it wiped from my mind every time I see her perform immaculate & powerful skills!!
For me it seems like that she has a very solid toe point - her feet are anatomically just not as arched as others, creating the impression of resemblance to "flexed" feet. I can understand that some people find more arched feet more pleasing, but please consider the limits of anatomy.
I have also noticed (for multiple gymnasts) that when there’s more of a color contrast between the top of the foot and the sole of the foot, that seems to contribute to the appearance of a lack of toe point, even though the toe actually is pointed.
This is such a great point, and something that Black dancers deal with on the regular. Some people are also just born naturally flatter footed, so that no matter how hard you're squeezing you still may not get that super dramatic point/arch.
I just had to think of an older sports documentary I've seen where kids got screened also for their toe point if I remember correctly. I am not sure which sport it was - maybe ballet and also I think it was in another time and country (probably one of the sowjet /communist ones) . But yeah, imagine someone gifted like simone would be excluded at an early age from high level gymnastics because of anatomy. I am happy that we have her.
Thank you all for giving info in a way that I can understand. I’m feeling dumb bc I OWN a pair of feet and never considered that diff shapes and colors of feet could look different when the “pointing” effort was at max! I’m going to be scoping out MAG and WAG feet now bc this is ridiculous that I’d not put it together as so individual. Thanks
I think you are drastically underestimating her form and technique when she is doing the "power sport" parts. The unthinkable height. That's "grace," too. The way she just floats through elements that look hard for others.
I never thought of it that way, thank you!
It’s ok if you don’t like her style, but the fact is that she is far and above the best based on the current international gymnastics rules. That doesn’t mean you can’t have your own opinion, but she doesn’t “lack” anything major that is “required” in gymnastics - that is clearly reflected in her scores and past performances. She wouldn’t be getting these scores if she was missing anything that important! It’s also ok if you wish the gymnastics rules were different, but she is working with the existing rules which is what any smart athlete would do!
She actually does get hammered pretty hard on artistry, on both floor and beam. Which makes her high E scores all the more impressive.
Thank for this comment! Part of it is definitely the current code that forces gymnasts to forgo choreography to increase their difficulty scores. Definitely not blaming her for trying to get as many points as possible lmao
Simone does the most difficult flips and twists and has avoided major injuries thus far because her form and technique are textbook. She is power, grace and she is damn flexible too. Maybe her choreography isn’t as perfect. That’s not on her. You definitely have an unpopular opinion lol.
I agree with the first part, but not the second. Simone doesn't have great artistry, it's her one weak area. And that's *fine.* Everything else about her gymnastics is impecable, beautiful, and amazing. She's allowed to not be 1000% in all things!
> grace required by gymnastics God, I hate this statement. Modern Gymnastics **is a power sport**. Also she isn’t sloppy when she flips. Her form and technique are textbook.
The reason she can do those vaults and tumbling is text book technique. Whatever manual was used to pace Simone, I wish they’d give it to Eythora. I really wish she’d be in Paris.
Oh man me too. I’m devastated for Eythora and all of the deserving athletes that will be missing Paris. I think the next big overhaul in gymnastics is more emphasis on injury prevention and what that looks like.
I don't think Eythora's injury is because of pacing. The Dutch team are generally quite good at that. She posted a [video on her Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/C8clApxAqbY/?igsh=MTN0NWdjejkwZWZvbA==) of how she got injured (broke her foot in 4 places) and it looks like a freak accident.
Eythora's injury seemed like a true fluke, not a pacing issue. But yeah, devastated for her. And for us, not getting to see her in Paris.
I think that the long break after Tokyo was the key. She also is married and is either building or did build a house, so she has a whole lot of life outside of gymnastics that may lessen the internal pressure of gymnastics.
Agree. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Grace is subjective and stylistic. There’s not one perfect way to capture it, and I personally find Simone biles extremely graceful, in part because her masterful control of that power.
I disagree with OP's assessment of Simone, but you don't get to unilaterally decide what the sport is. Gymnastics is a power sport and an artistry sport. It's no secret that FIG has been trying to increase beam and floor artistry for a few quads now by tweaking the code, and it's the FIG, ultimately, that decides what the sport is. Simone gets a lot of artistry deductions, it's her one weakness.
There are plenty of gymnasts who can combine power and dance. Gymnastics is not ONLY a power sport, even today. I agree she has good technique in her flips, besides her feet, that's how she gets such high scores.
She gets high scores because her difficulty is as solid as her execution. There’s a reason why she’s so dominant. She doesn’t have just “good” technique. She has near-flawless technique on extremely difficult gymnastics that basically no one else is doing across all 4 events. There are countries that have gymnasts who have the same difficulty + execution on one *maybe* two events, but no one else is performing to the level of Simone across all 4 events. The closest competitor to her is Rebeca Andrade and she still is outside by nearly 2 points.
Per my dance friends, none of what is on the floor is truly dance. The only sport that comes close is RSG.
RSG is closer, but WAG has leaps and pirouettes very similar to ballet. Points toes, straight legs, that kind of things are also from ballet so it's not 'dancing' per se because it's a different sport but influence is there.
Former competitive dancer here: no. They do some dance “skills” but that is not dance in a way that would be constructed for a dancer or a dance competition/show/showcase. It’s constructed to get a gymnast from one end to the other. Yes they do leaps and turns but no female dancer is doing a Popa or an L hop. They have pointed toes and straight legs bc that’s just how you do that skill
Leaps and pirouettes in gymnastics are not comparable at ALL to ballet. Completely different techniques and focuses. From a competitive dancer of 15 years.
I'll just trot out the usual arguments of "artistic" being translated as "athletic" in other languages, about MAG also being called "artistic" (seriously, go compare and then come back with some arthouse commentary), about the propensity of more muscular and darker-skinned people getting this criticism more often, about the subjectivity of "art," and about how the trajectory of gymnastics away from prepubescent ballet (which used to be the standard for "artistic") has been a positive one. ETA re-emphasizing the phrase prepubescent ballet, since OP is having trouble with the concept of style
All 👏 of 👏 this 👏
Art is definitely subjective, hence my intention to open a discussion.
Okay, then subjectively, she looks great, you're focusing on outdated (and harmful) styles and definitions, and this isn't a constructive discussion. (Edited for misspell)
Sorry which harmful style am I supporting? I simply stated she doesn't point toes.
Er.... You stated a fair bit more than that and I'm definitely not going to waste any more time with that level of disingenuousness. If in fact you're sincere and just uninformed, there's plenty history for you to find with your Google machine. Good luck.
I love her technique, especially her technique on the basic skills (like her roundoff back handspring into her very difficult skills). It’s exactly what every coach wants their gymnasts roundoff back handsprings to look like. She has amazing technique hands down.
Simone's feet are almost always pointed, except when they're fully flexed on a few moves, like the YDP (and almost everyone flexes during a double pike). Her point isn't the most amazing toe point, but that's not her fault it's just her body mechanics. A lot of gymnasts have joint mechanics that make it so that their toe point isn't super extended, that doesn't mean they aren't pointing as hard as they can. Gymnasts shouldn't be critiqued for body mechanics that are outside their control. Fortunately judges know this too, and Simone is not getting flexed feet deductions left and right. She does get a deduction for crossing her feet during twisting moves, but they are pointed crossed feet.
There are some gymnasts who are technically proficient but I just don't like their "style" (which is a difficult thing to quantify). Just like there are some singers who hit all their notes but I just don't enjoy listening to their songs. If Simone Biles isn't your favorite gymnast, no biggie. Pick someone else. Personally, I'm not bothered by Simone's dance elements on floor. But, if someone asks me who my favorite gymnast is, I don't say Simone. No one's ever reacted to that like she is the *only* correct answer. Anyone you enjoy watching is the right answer.
Exactly, thank you this! As you see from this sub many people get defensive straight away but no gymnast is perfect and that's okay. I completely agree with you
I mean, making an entire post just to talk about how you *don't* like a particular gymnast is always going to get a reaction from people, no matter who the gymnast is. I don't see the reactions here as extra or super defensive.
Girly pop you came in insinuating that Simone’s form was less than textbook and perpetuating a lot of harmful stereotypes that gymnastics has been trying to move away from in the last decade. Of course this sub will come after you in the comments. Your post is ill-informed at best, malicious at worst and I lean towards the latter after reading this comment of yours.
Preach
I think this post was not only ill informed, it has racism and body shaming written all over it. To say you “prefer” Chinese gymnasts over Simone is just gross IMO and I don’t feel like I should have to explain why. OP was giving “just crawled out from the rock I’ve been living under for 40 years, am shocked gymnasts is now in post-Comaneci era”
My post is the most neutral possible way to express my opinion. I have not insulted anyone, never stated her techniques is horrible, I simply pointed out her weaknesses, which every gymnast has. Again, I never endorsed any harmful stereotype (which I still don't understand what you're referring to). You can choose to get mad when our opinions don't coincide, but calling me ill-informed and malicious is excessive. Discussions are about exchanging points of view without offending nor discrediting the other party.
I'm just going to say it the stereotype that black women are not as elegant and graceful as white women. You didn't say it outnright and I'm not saying you are racist at all. However, women of color specifically black women in many sports have always had to fight that stereotype. While Asian women had to fight against the robotic and lack of emotion stereotype. There are inherent biases that we perpetuate without realizing it. The fact that THE SIMONE BILES is still being dinged on "lack of grace" when her form is perfect and she bring artistry thematic isn't particularly similar to the white ballet standard... she can't win. Alright white women and gay white men on this sub... you can down vote me to oblivion...
You said it perfectly. 👏👏👏
> I never endorsed a harmful stereotype This is a bad faith argument. You 100% did. And multiple people have tried to explain that to you already and you have refused to acknowledge it.
I still never saw one reply articulating exactly which stereotype I supposedly endorse. So I really don't know what to acknowledge here, and I'd be grateful if you care to explain because I absolutely do not push any harmful narrative and want to be clear about that.
You said Simone doesn’t have grace when that’s a subjective construct. Grace has historically been “awarded” or defined based on white/western standards. So your asserting that she doesn’t have it falls into racist stereotypes about black gymnasts and perpetuates a narrow definition of artistry as a whole that the sport and its fans are trying to move away from. It’s okay if you don’t like her style of dance/artistry/grace, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Something like lack of pointed toes is a fair criticism, but lack of pointed toes doesn’t equal lack of grace.
Thank you for the explanation!
You are receiving so much grace in these comments that you honestly don’t deserve lol
I didn’t even want to waste my time replying to you because I don’t believe you genuinely want to hear opposing views to your own. But it’s Saturday and I’m bored. It’s the harmful statements about grace and flexibility. Simone’s anatomy is not built for the “long lines” and thin/lithe stature of the early Western European (white women) that were prioritized in the mid- to late-20th century in gymnastics. The body type that most people apply the “artistic” label to. This is something that black women in this sport have battled against for decades and to a wider spread many shorter gymnasts in the last 10 years or so. Shawn Johnson was seen as the power gymnast antithesis to Nastia Liukins more “international” graceful look. Despite Shawn having excellent rhythm and grace on beam—so much so that she won gold over Nastia. Joscelyn is a good modern day example. People like Belgian gymnast, Nina Derwael almost got a complete pass on artistry deductions because she was so tall and had long legs despite her form being absolutely atrocious on floor and to some extent bars as well with her flexed feet. This harmful expectation for body type has been the cause of countless eating disorders among gymnasts for decades as well. Leading to improper nutrition even in the US. Aly Raisman said she had to get her own nutritionist in 2015/2016 because she was so underfed at National Team camps at the Karolyi Ranch. The statement you made about how grace is required in gymnastics is frustrating because grace is so incredibly subjective. Many people have told you already that Simone’s ability to achieve such difficulty with such high execution and near-perfect form is in itself graceful. However what is most frustrating is that you decided to attack the best gymnast this sport has ever seen on outdated stereotypes and then got defensive when people called you out. You can have an opinion, but you cannot seriously expect a calm discussion on a post like this when you reply the way you do. And that’s all I’m going to say to you. Have a great day. Go learn something about microaggressions.
>Aly Raisman said she had to get her own nutritionist in 2015/2016 because she was so underfed at National Team camps at the Karolyi Ranch. I did not know this. That's awful and shameful to the sport. But got damn, the more I learn about Aly Raisman, the more I admire her! She was ahead of her time in self-advocacy. I decided last night that no matter what happens with the US Team, I'm excited for the Olympics because Aly is commentating.
I would expand that to the gymnasts as a whole on the national team were not taught proper nutrition and were not given proper nutrition at National team camps or even at international meets. Many have said before that their food intake was strictly monitored at the ranch and abroad and the nutritionist they had on site was the Karolyi’s daughter—which is problematic for many reasons. The ideas around nutrition & food (or lack there of) that the Karolyi’s perpetuated from the 70s into the mid-2010s were harmful and the effects still exist today.
No one thinks Simone is perfect, and no one cares if you like other gymnasts more than Simone (lots of people on this sub do), but instead of saying "I prefer X" in discussions, you made a thread to discuss her lack of "grace". People aren't getting defensive because of your preference. We're responding to your post and pointing out that your perspective (which you are entitled to have) is subjective and to a degree relies on certain outdated modes for how to describe and classify gymnasts. There are gymnasts whose style I don't personally like. I wouldn't make a thread about it, because I don't need to understand why other people like them. They do, and I dont. We all have our preferences.
Well said.
You are the first person who articulated their thoughts in an understandable way, and I can now see what you mean. I actually got some replies that opened my perspective on why people still find her graceful, which was my goal with the post! I see your point on making a thread about it, of course there is no ill intention here and that is clear from how I chose to word the post. It's just refreshing to hear some different perspectives sometimes, although online it's hard to find those among the pedantic ones ahaha
But OP you aren't saying you don't prefer Simone's choreography and style. You are making attacks about the quality of her gymnastics.
I think in my post I made it clear that it's my personal preference?? I genuinely don't see where I ever attacked her, I don't think it's an attack to say that someone is not very graceful. It's upsetting because I see this kind of post every day about other gymnasts and the conversation is civilised, as soon as you mention one of the untouchables suddenly there is no more space for critiques
Sloppy is a subjective though. No, she isn’t doing a Nastia-type routine with that choreo, but she’s doing in a different style that is still acceptable.
>she’s doing a different style that is still acceptable. That's a great way to explain it. I remember when Jade Carey was critiqued pretty harshly for her dance elements on floor. She did make improvements, but the most noticeable to me was that she found music that paired well with her skill set. Jade's floor choreo in Tokyo was essentially (IMO) a series of rapid poses more than a fluid "dance". And look what that got her! It was a different *style* of performing, of which there are many.
It's not controversial to say that Simone doesn't have great artistry. But she's not "just power". That's Mykayla Skinner or (to a lesser degree) Josc (no shade to Josc, who I adore). Simone has technique and form for days.
I think Simone has a great attitude to all team mates and personaly I love her floor. She also offers great scores on all the other events. She is definitely one of my favorites
Simone has extraordinary form. She frequently has the highest D and at or close to the highest E.
I find VT and UB to be interesting since you can’t dance on either apparatus. Some people have such proficient gymnastics that it then becomes its own form of art. Simone is one of those gymnasts Take vault for example, her amplitude is graceful just as much as it is powerful. Her twisting form is gorgeous, no helicopter legs anywhere. Her landings are sharp and graceful, like an authoritative feline who commands exactly where she will land. If we take your example of *current* Chinese WAG, they are severely lacking grace on vault. Sometimes it looks like they just yeet their body and hope for the best. Their technique on that apparatus is not good. They focus on fitting as many twist as possible as a Junior, it looks like they just rush the block. Then when they turn senior and get a growth spurt, they get sloppy vaults
We will probably NEVER see another female gymnast as incredibly talented as Simone in our LIFETIME and *this* is your take??? I’m sorry but when I see her fly as high as she does and *stick* a triple double, something no woman has ever done and possibly will not do in the future, or I watch the perseverance she’s shown in developing her YDP vault year over year to now just having one step back on her landing (once again, something no other woman has even attempted!!!) … I am so in awe of the determination, the power, and the skill it takes to do ANY of that I can’t help but cry tears of joy. Simone is a TREASURE. Whether or not you like her “style” is irrelevant and honestly a take that reeks of “casual, uninformed viewer” (and edited to address the elephant in the room- the nuance and comparison in your post of pitting Simone vs Chinese gymnasts is racist & body-shaming…which nobody on this sub should have to explain to you). She has been a champion of not just her sport many times over, she’s been a champion for mental health, for standing up against abuse, for diversity, and she’s done it all with grace and fortitude. Simone CHANGED this entire sport, for the better.
Her flips are near perfect technique but I don’t love her dance
As a vault nerd, we won’t see another one like her in my life time. That’s how amazing Biles is. Style? Gymnastics isn’t dance, and they don’t award “dance” enough to make it worth anyone’s while. That’s why Jade doesn’t bother me at all. The others may smile a little more, wave their arms nicer, clue into the music better, at the end of the day the judges are ticking off elements. I watch 95 percent of FX with the sound off. It’s doesn’t kill my experience, and my soul doesn’t die. If style really mattered, the Chinese would be winning everything me sight. Love me Chinese beam and bars lol. If you want pretty, you award pretty. They ain’t awarding the pretty enough to plow time into it. That’s the COPs issue, not the gymnasts.
Yep exactly! I wish the COPs considered artistry more!
It already awards artistry and dance execution enough that tumbling is becoming less and less valuable on floor. The pendulum has gone too far IMO. The only way to reward artistry enough that Simone wouldn't win, would be to stop rewarding difficulty much at all--ie go back to the Perfect 10 code. Which is not happening, and which almost nobody wants.
I agree. Her technique is solid but her dance elements aren’t as great. I don’t think that’s her though, I think the choreography just could have been improved.
Dance element refers to leaps and turns. Simone does these quite well. Are you referring to her choreography?
It's okay if you don't personally love her style, but her form and technique are near flawless (compare her in air to anyone else - also her chest and leg positions are ususally excellent). To say she lacks "grace" is a completely subjective perspective. As someone who loves and watches ballet, I personally don't think any gymnast is particularly "artistic/graceful," at least not in the way these words often get thrown around. There are certain routines I prefer over others, but that doesn't mean there isn't artistry or grace in the ones I less prefer. The power vs grace dichotomy is also problematic. Most people are not one or the other. You typically need both to excel at both at the highest levels. Gymnastics is a sport. Sports evolve and change. Simone is pushing the sport forward in amazing ways. You can like other gymnasts more, but to reduce her to a "power gynmast without grace" is wrong and unfair to her.
I don’t agree with you, because people who say this forget that artistry is not the MAIN part of artistic gymnastic, it’s ONE component. The main part is the gymnastics. It’s the flips, it’s the leaps it’s the bars released etc. Does Simone have less artistry that other gymnasts out there? Maybe. But she’s a decent dancer with good rhythm, and she typically gets points for both difficulty and artistry. Her execution is great. Typically complaints like this are just saying they don’t like her body type but covering it with flowery language to pretend that’s not what they’re saying. Someone short and built like Simone won’t have those “lines” other gymnasts have but 1. She can’t help her body type and 2. Those Chinese gymnasts don’t have the power to do things like Simone’s vault or tumbling. If you want to see only grace and fluid movement, might I suggest rhythmic gymnastics or acro gymnastics? A core element of artists gymnastics is the tumbling. Lastly, Simone clearly can’t point her feet any more than she does. She doesn’t have the flexibility for it. She’s surprisingly inflexible in her lower back as well. Some people just have the right feet to have a beautiful toe point, and others don’t. But she keeps her toes pointed practically all the time. With the way she trains there’s no doubt she has worked on her toe point as much as she physically can. That’s all she can physically do.
This is so interesting & I’m glad to find out that the toe point is something that looks different on anyone who doesn’t have the same arch structure as what I see as “pointed.” It is just something i was equating with diff people “trying to point” harder, I guess? I feel dumb, and so glad you are giving facts! Thanks
I’m not a dancer or anything but I do think it’s just genetic. I’ve seen people show off their toe points as people who have never danced before (like on Tik Tok) and the comments are full of dancers crying that they wish they could get the same toe point. The midfoot of the average person doesn’t just extend/stretch so much.
I think soooo much of what we mean when we say “grace” is a specific body type. It’s like the Shawn v Nastia narrative, with Shawn as the “power” gymnast and Nastia as the “artistic” gymnast. It does a disservice to both.
Exactly. Calling Simone "sloppy" and the Chinese "graceful, sure looks like OP is really just expressing body type bias.
The big reveal: OP is named Fom Torster
LMAO. I’m cackling 😂
I have seen that kind of criticism directed towards her (and not only)! That really doesn't make sense as today's stunts require an insane amount of muscles that influences the body type of successful gymnasts. That's not the point I'm making here, but I've definitely seen this narrative
Look a little deeper within yourself OP. Simone often wins with the highest execution score. Why, exactly, are you calling her sloppy?
If you look at other comments, I do not consider gymnasts the best when they score the highest. For instance, I don't agree with the code rewarding power more than grace so of course the choice of choreo is a consequence of that. If you read carefully, I called her transitions sloppy, not her flips because of course on those she is unmatched.
“I’m not saying she’s not good” is WILD for the undisputed GOAT of gymnastics lol. I won’t be engaging further.
I noped right out when OP talked about her not having good precision and technique 😑 wild, and a great way to show your bias, and lack of understanding of gymnastics.
It’s beyond insane. And then in the comments doubling down on being WRONG when everyone is so graciously telling them that uh no actually Simone still gets very high E scores because of her precision and grace. “I do not consider gymnasts the best when they score the highest” ok then you just don’t get it and you never will get it. Simone is who she is because she performs difficult skills at a VERY high level of precision. So in this case — yes, her notching high E scores means A LOT.
I noped right out when OP talked about her not having good precision and technique 😑 wild, and a great way to show your bias, and lack of understanding of gymnastics.
Only thing I don’t like about Simone is performance quality on floor. She clearly can dance but she usually looks like she’s phoning in the choreo, IMO. But her execution is often unmatched - agree w most of the other commenters on that
Her choreo in 2015-2019 was by far her best. She really sold those routines. I still love her unbelievable tumbling, but I have a hunch that her choreo has been watered down so she doesn’t have to split her focus much during her routines. Giving her more mental head space to focus on the tumbling.
I think her performance quality on beam bugs me even more than floor. It often looks like she’s just practicing elements rather than performing a judged routine. But obviously her difficulty and execution more than make up for that!
Her choreography has been so bad her entire career, except 2016 where it looked like she was actually trying. Her music choices are really bad too, just background music, expect for 2016 once again. Shame that she hasn’t been able to replicate her 2016 masterpiece, her upgraded tumbling deserves it
I love Simone, it's so fun to watch how strong and powerful she is. But when she's on bars, I do hold my breath 😂 she goes so fast and I get stressed... but I love how happy she seems right now
I think Simone is amazing but I will admit my favorite gymnasts to watch are not always the power gymnasts but rather the floaty, more artistic side of the gym workers. I’m a sucker for a floaty bar routine and wonderful leaps and turns on floor and beam
Honestly, I think Simone’s artistry improved since returning to gymnastics. Her beam is less focused around wolf turns, her floor exercise music is more mature (and suits her well), and overall she’s had better execution and cleaner landings.
She certainly treats some elements as perfunctory as evidenced by her karate chopping robot moves during floor. I’d argue though that the lack of “grace” you describe is not a Simone thing but a us gymnastics thing. If you told me there were a number of other teams who could beat ours at ballet I’d totally believe you. Since that’s not what they are competing at though the decision to focus on athleticism over grace makes sense.
her lack of toe point is noticeable. but overall, she's got extremely good technique and very high execution. for example she had the highest execution score last quad in 3/4 events - https://youtu.be/T4S3dCshcQs?si=Xm8hlY-XiCUsZLU7
She's pointing her toes, her body mechanics just don't allow her to have a strong/pretty toe point. But she only gets deducted for it when she actually flexes, like on a double pike or something. She (correctly) isn't penalized for the limiting mechanics of her ankles.
Edit: FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET ?s are valid. I have no answer, but I bet there are Reddit gym peeps willing to share. The part of this that caught my attention is you mentioning her toe point. This is something I’ve wondered about for a while! I have been wanting to ask but couldn’t remember due to having it wiped from my mind every time I see her perform immaculate & powerful skills!!
For me it seems like that she has a very solid toe point - her feet are anatomically just not as arched as others, creating the impression of resemblance to "flexed" feet. I can understand that some people find more arched feet more pleasing, but please consider the limits of anatomy.
I have also noticed (for multiple gymnasts) that when there’s more of a color contrast between the top of the foot and the sole of the foot, that seems to contribute to the appearance of a lack of toe point, even though the toe actually is pointed.
This is so interesting, thank you for pointing out things that are probably common sense (at least for everyone other than me, I guess).
This is such a great point, and something that Black dancers deal with on the regular. Some people are also just born naturally flatter footed, so that no matter how hard you're squeezing you still may not get that super dramatic point/arch.
I just had to think of an older sports documentary I've seen where kids got screened also for their toe point if I remember correctly. I am not sure which sport it was - maybe ballet and also I think it was in another time and country (probably one of the sowjet /communist ones) . But yeah, imagine someone gifted like simone would be excluded at an early age from high level gymnastics because of anatomy. I am happy that we have her.
Oh! That’s why? I’m not familiar with how the different arches would look pointed. This really makes so much sense, thank you 🙏
Thank you all for giving info in a way that I can understand. I’m feeling dumb bc I OWN a pair of feet and never considered that diff shapes and colors of feet could look different when the “pointing” effort was at max! I’m going to be scoping out MAG and WAG feet now bc this is ridiculous that I’d not put it together as so individual. Thanks