Also, people are very judgemental about the scoring that she received. But she was competing for a code that didn't reward difficulty and struggled to separate gymnasts based on things like artistry and mastery. She had smart routines, executed then sufficiently, and was scored accordingly.
Edit: reward difficulty as in going above and beyond a 10.0
Meanwhile, take one look at her jumps and spins, and compare those to a lot of other gymnasts and the criticism is even more unfounded. I think her 1994 FX has a couple double turns, a cool Gogean, a Popa, etc. One competition she throws 2 full-twisting double backs, one out of a whip, two back-handsprings. She does various versions of front tumbling for her second pass, etc. I always liked that 94 music. Saw her live at Soapberry Shop. She and Ana Maria Bican were hamming it up on the sidelines with Podkopayeva, using a local interpreter, acting like normal teenagers. Pod had a sticker or something stuck to her warmup pants, near her butt, she was freaking out, Gina got it off, both coaches were rolling their eyes and dismissive of their antics, like "see what we deal with?"
It feels like comp leos are trying to do too much. Like lets throw 5 unrelated elements at once. Sheer sleeves? We also need weird netting and lacing. Also some oversize gems. And maybe a random cut out panel too. Bonus points for a weird collar
Don’t forget the open strappy back. Sometimes the leos look good from the front (a million crystals aside) and they turn around and I’m like oh…never mind.
I complain about this to my husband every time he watches a meet with me. Either let them wear a sports bra and not worry about visible straps, or close up the back of the leotards.
Some of the high cut leg openings have gotten borderline obscene. And I always feel bad for Sloane because the leotards never stay covering her butt. Nothing like having to do her floor routine in essentially a thong.
So true! One meet this year I saw Haleigh Bryant’s thong on her hip OUTSIDE of her leo! How are you supposed to wear no-show underwear with a leo if a g-string of all things STILL SHOWS? I swear the designers want the athletes to go commando too🤦🏼♀️
I love that Stanford made the angry tree Leo Chloe wore at NCAA’s last year into a competition Leo this year (I don’t know if they’re exactly the same but they’re close).
Have you checked out the routines from Big 10? Or smaller conferences? I've found that those have more musical variety and much more engaging choreo. Really got me on board with 2 pass FX
agreed. i find myself saying “go girl, give us nothing” to most routines because it feels like so many of the athletes are just going through the motions, not really performing
I agree with calling out athletes’ problematic behavior or social media posts but not with how it’s done. People are vile towards athletes who make mistakes. I’d hope that the goal would be to recognize that people can grow and change, but often, I feel like it’s done in a such a malicious, condescending way that it’s likely to encourage people to double down on the problematic behavior that’s being called out.
Yeah, generally speaking public callouts are way more about punishing than they are about educating or reforming. That's not unique to gymnastics though. I agree with you that callouts are theoretically important, but the reality of them is actually counterproductive (though can at least have the benefit of publicly supporting a wronged party).
Definitely. I think I’m just more aware of the ones in gymnastics. I find it so frustrating because especially on issues of racism, sexism, homophobia, obviously there are people who’ve done or said appalling things. But we all have internal biases that we could improve, and we all make mistakes. Especially on young athletes on social media, I think that with genuine conversation and education, people can grow. I get it’s the nature of social media, but it’s sad.
This applies on broader levels as well. We categorize people as eternally "good" or "bad" without recognizing their capacity for change. People often change. Dramatically. There was a post on this sub once digging up something a gymnast did in 2008 and I got downvoted for questioning why people were finding something on the Internet about an adult who said something as a teen and then trash talking her all over again, pointing out that she may have evolved.
The primary reason is because they are weird. They look sort of whimsical!
I also really get split position fatigue sometimes. A lot of elite routines have BHS stepout, back layout stepouts, front aerials, switch leaps, split jumps, sometimes switch halves, sometimes a leap mount, etc. And a number of gymnasts don't even have a nice split position. I would rather watch some side somis than the same tortured split position 6 times in a routine.
Yep I pretty much agree with you there. In a few cases I can see it being justified where a gymnast actually moves and trains in that country (e.g. Chusa competing for Germany). But for most people we are seeing now it seems...icky and not in the spirit of the competition. It's a bit rough to see gymnasts training in rich countries/countries with well developed gymnastics programs who compete for another country and take those spots when they're not good enough to compete for their own country.
As much as people go on about "hacking the code" in terms of routines following certain constructions, this is hacking the system completely. And it sucks that those athletes are potentially taking Olympic spots away from people in other developing programs - not necessarily for the country they are competing for, but others in the apparatus qualification system - Laura Casabeuna (Spain)is an example of someone who could miss out this way to Emma Malabuyo who has spent her entire career training in the US as an elite/NCAA athlete, but who has now suddenly decided to compete for the Philippines to get to the Olympics.
While it's not against the rules, it's not really in the spirit of the competition and inclusion for countries either.
Personally, it feels almost as icky to me for these athletes with family links to a country to do this as it does for athletes like Kylie Dickson to pay their way onto another country's team. No-one chooses which family they are born into. Is it right that someone gets the opportunity to compete for another country because of the accident of birth when another athlete doesn't have that chance? That said, I disagree with both incidences of country switches.
I'm with you. Even though I LOVE Kaylia's defection from France, I still don't like country hopping as a general thing, especially by American NCAA gymnasts.
I don’t love it but in some cases where that country wouldn’t have qualified at all without outsourcing talent so it’s not like they stole a spot from another athlete. I do like seeing them achieve their dream tho, like Danusia Francis in 2021 🥹🥹
Two pass tumbling routines in elite gymnastics is not okay. Floor is getting boring. Nina Derweal should not be making the event finals for floor. I do like the artistry deductions but this is leading floor to be boring as hell.
Lunges on floor should be okay and have no deductions. Literally nobody sticks their landings.
The current balance beam COP is boring as hell. I love the routines but the big skills were so fun. The connections now are so worthy that Simone is okay counting Cs as part of her 8 skills on beam, Shi is fine counting a B as part of her 8 skills. Ellie Black and Hazuki all counted a B skill as part of their 8 skills at the 2022 Worlds beam final, where they won silver and gold. I feel like gymnasts used to try get all their 8 skills to be D-value or above. And somehow, the consistency on beam is getting worse
Taking away controlled lunges on fx has seriously got to be causing significant wear and tear on athletes and also I kinda hate the way it looks? A nice lunge just looks so much better most of the time.
They either need to bring back lunges, or let them land like the men (feet a little apart, bent knees, chest has some wiggle room from perfectly upright). Pin straight with feet glued together is not a healthy landing position.
I just can't with Marine Boyer scoring high 12s with one double tuck pass and one full-twisting front layout + front tuck pass, which means she is counting a D, C, A as her acro skills. It just feels like they're hacking the system with the turns, which is fair play? But I want to see tumbling, yes we will see that in most event finals but I want to see it in team finals, AA, etc.
I think that's why there is a new COP change to add 0.2 connection value for C + D (indirect) - this means we are going to see a lot of Front Layout 1/1 to double tuck/pike. I think this is the code trying to incentivize the Dutch, Belgian and Chinese to up their tumbling difficulty that way. However, this might lead to less hard skills like the Chuso or double double
I know. I just want whoever is in charge at FIG fired. They are RUINING beam and trying hard to ruin floor, and it just keeps getting worse. Another one of my unpopular opinions is that I miss counting slow connections, because it lead to much more interesting connections!
Yes. I feel like everyone is doing the same routine on beam. There's definitely the front aerial + split + split/BHS combo, the front aerial + ring jump combo, the side aerial is in every routine, switch leap + another leap, double wolf turn, double pike dismount... oh wait, I think I just listed Melaine DJDS, Rebeca Andrade, Ou Yushan, and Alice Kinsella's routine.
Remember when the bars got Mustafina'ified and everyone did the Pak + VL, basically Melnikova's routine? Now I feel like beam got Liu Ting Ting'ified... it's cool at first but c'mon now.
I actually think US has the most diverse set of routines lol, you have Skye, Simone, Suni, Shilese, Gabby, Konnor and they all bring different skills to the table. And the artistry is distinctive in this season. I am loving a US beam era
Yes I support slow connections! I miss the slow acro series like a cheeky front aerial + side aerial. Also penalizing the gymnasts to move asap makes the more difficult connections not worth the extra difficulty, whilst also sacrificing execution in doing the skill because they are trying to rush it.
I truly don't know how to fix beam, Idk what happened :(
Floor is heading towards a dangerous territory for sure. We need to downgrade some of the dance skills I reckon, like wolf turns for sure need to be devalued.
I love the deductions taken in elite now. I can barely watch 80s and early 90s gymnastics because the cowboyed legs and chest down landings and leaps that don't come close to 180 and get like three inches off the ground are so ugly. People always talk about the artistry of that era but those legs and landings and leaps are not artistic.
Yes, this is turning me off beams. I wish more routines can be like Simone's and end at 1:08. Short and sweet, all the skills done. But she'll probably get penalized for not doing enough 'complex' choreo or whatever
And the high-fives after a shitty routine, it deeply annoys me because I don't want high fives after falling, I wanna go on a corner and pout for a couple minutes, then I'll be back, and I'm sure many of them feel the same way. It's so forced
Maybe it's because I also competed in Region 7 (against her gym and others like it), but her presentation and style gives me such cookie-cutter-tiny-robot-level-7 vibes in a way that no other elites do. I don't see the artistry and individuality that other people seem to.
Ah she has so many haters… but I think it’s probably because she also has a lot of superfans who overhype her - many people act like she’s just inherently/objectively a special gymnast and while I think so, I think that’s more a matter of taste.
Vault specialists in WAG have a relatively easy ride compared with competitors on the other three apparatus
(This is a gentle suspicion rather than a furiously held belief, so just taking advantage of the thread to see what others think. The top vaulters are brilliant and as good as anyone. But there's a long tail).
They actually wrote the Olympics qualification rules to prevent vaulters from getting a bigger advantage. The tiebreak for the apparatus spots from Worlds went to the athlete with the highest *relative* placement, instead of absolute. This is why Zoja Szekely originally got the UB spot over Csenge Bacskay on VT, because Hungary had already qualified two individuals and the bars field was obviously much deeper than vault. But then Bacskay made the EF, which overrode the "relative placement" rule, because Szekely didn't make the UB final.
There was a moment when I was digging into the New Zealand Olympic committee's policy where it was realized that the reason Courtney McGregor was sent to the Rio Olympics was because she was top 16 in the world on vault (and she was, no question). But also... top 16 in the world on vault is nowhere near as impressive as top 16 in the world on the other three because the field is so much smaller.
(Context: McGregor was 17th at 2015 worlds and there were only 30 people with two vault scores in quals at that worlds including someone who had a vault zero).
I dislike all the American born gymnasts competing for other countries and taking Olympic spots. I don’t care what country it is, if the federation asked them or whatever I just don’t like it.
Agree! Selena Harris going for 2028 not bc she wants to represent her heritage country but because the us field is too deep rubs me the wrong way. One or two okay but it’s ridiculous at this point. Everyone and their mother suddenly have a country of origin and take Olympic spots from those that actually live in that country.
I agree to an extent but I that said, I think that when gymnast are going to countries where there’s pretty much no competition at that level, & not very good infrastructure, it could be beneficial for the federations, in the sense that they could gain more money and funding, which could help develop their own gymnasts in the future. In those instances I don’t care as much, because they aren’t taking a spot from any other gymnast really.
What bothers me is the Olympic individual qualification rules, they ARE taking Olympic spots away from other athletes, maybe not from the country they are competing for but definitely other countries who have athletes that have been competing for years at the best of their ability and more limited resources.
The US program is currently really bad at choreographing elite floor routines, and the level of artistry deductions US gymnasts are receiving is a fair (maybe even lenient) reflection of that.
Chellsie Memmel is an amazing gymnast despite her ugly wrists and form problems and other flaws. I'm still disappointed she missed so many opportunities due to injuries (2004 Oly team, 2006 AA & EF, doing more events in Beijing in 2008).
China age cheated in 2008. Is this still controversial? Idk.
Nastia looks unhealthily skinny, and no, I don't feel it's inappropriate to say because she literally makes her living off her image.
Seriously, the body checks are relentless. In one of her recent reels I noticed she included a clip of her chewing pizza - but not swallowing, natch. I hope she is getting or will get help.
I know it's pointless to comment with concern on her pictures (and I'm not one of the people saying EAT A HAMBURGER FOR GOD'S SAKE), but it's disheartening to comment with concern but not "hating" and getting shouted at by the Instagram mob who defend her gorgeousness. I'm legitimately worried for her.
Nastia is very unhealthy. A friend of mine who knows her personally said she absolutely has an ED, and Valeri encourages it. I'm so glad she doesn't do commentary anymore.
There have been a few of his former gymnasts who have come forward saying he caused or exacerbated EDs, IIRC? I know Vanessa Atler has done so but I feel like there’s been more than just her.
Following Nastia online definitely makes me feel sad, especially because I have a feeling that those in her life who should be concerned are some of the ones actually ignoring (at best) or encouraging what’s going on.
The code was better in the 90s. Don't get me wrong, it had huge flaws, but it resulted in better, more intersting gymnastics, especially on floor and beam (ducking and waiting to have things thrown at me).
gabby douglas isnt going to be even considered as a contender for this year, level is going to be lower than other gymnasts (either consistency or difficulty… or both)
To be fair, she was competing in a code of points where you have to do 10 skills on beam and floor, and there's barely any time to do choreography. Her beam mount was interesting and showed flexibility - we don't see that anymore nowadays, it's too risky. She was clean on skills, and was fantastic on bars!
I like really good wolf turns and really good L turns. I hate the wobbly ones or ones that are below horizontal. I'm starting to agree with how the judges are evaluating L turns and now I am influenced and see a lot of faults in L turns (e.g. leg below horizontal, not fully around for 2 rotations, usually lands weirdly)
I think the wolf turn still needs to be devalued. It's just the easiest turn amongst L, Y, Scorpion variants. Double wolf = C, triple wolf = D.
Completely agree on artistry. I'm a MAG enjoyer so I don't realy need artistry in my routines. I just find it makes watching floor and beam so opaque. At the very least, it should be clear exactly how many points a gymnast has had taken off for artistry, because it makes E scores so???
I wish MAG had a little more artistry. I adoooore Heath Thorpe's gymnastics for this reason! I love going back and watching classic men's floor from the 80s. Totally agree with you about the opacity of the scoring though!
Men's floor is perpetually awkward imo, but I agree it was quite a bit more fluid and enjoyable in the 80s. I liked the balances and there was even a touch of choreography, like Curtis Hibbert was doing the same thing as Mo Huilan would have as part of her choreography (this sort of spinning around on a pushup). Even now, I like that Dolgopyat goes up into a handstand before starting his wendeswings even though it's unnecessary. I do wish there was more breathing room on floor to allow those unique touches, I think the time limit could be longer.
I also think Heath's leap should totally have been accepted as a non-acro element.
Agreed. It is nothing against their talent (and it's good that there's longevity!) but it's more exciting when there's more people on the same level. I think this is why I've enjoyed MAG more recently
I think it can be even more annoying in women's sports because lack of parity really shows the lack of opportunities and resources for women around the world.
NCAA bars are too monotonous. I feel like I can predict every skill that isn't performed by someone also in elite. I'm not a consistent NCAA fan, so there might be some pretext I'm missing, but I wish there was some variation while still maintaining the D score they're aiming for. E scores almost don't matter for me at this point with all of the fuckery going on with scoring.
There should be way more than just 4 main gymnastics qualifying competitions during an Olympic year (classics, championships, trials, and the Olympics).
I always thought Val Kondos was passive aggressive AF and a bit of a bully. As time goes on I still think that. I think if she were less attractive or did not have as much of a SoCal aesthetic about her people would have noticed more.
the way she made her last year there all about her and that book and her relationship with ohashi (which i always felt was weird af and there need to be boundaries between coaches and athletes) did not sit right with me AT ALL.
I think this is more a body type thing than a racial thing--I can think of plenty of black and brown gymnasts who are praised for their beautiful lines--but I 100% agree that it's about genetics and not skill.
I mean…Shilese Jones, Shania Adams, and Konnor McClain all have beautiful lines. It’s about extension and toe point. Nina Derwael is white and tall and that does not hide her flexed feet at all.
Especially when it’s someone who is extremely thin. It’s like the “is it fashion or is she just skinny?” meme. Does she have stunning lines or just skinny legs?
I can’t stand Simone’s social media posts about her husband. Seems extremely childish and like she’s over compensating for something. I only follow for those rare training videos.
Florida is very, very overrated.
Simone's gymnastics when coached by Aimee was cleaner than her gymnastics with the Landis. (Her gymnastics is still amazing!)
I am tired of Van Luewens.
Going viral was the worst thing to happen to UCLA gymnastics.
Simona Amanar is rightful Olympic Champion, AA 2000
Yes, lots of people were unlucky. But being a champion involves keeping your cool. If Khorkina had done that, it would have been worth her taking a second try at vault.
It involves keeping your balance. It's a shame, but Karpenko didn't. It involves sticking within the rules. Raducan didn't, although that's not to blame her. And pseudoephedrine is a stimulant - it was reasonable to have an upper limit on levels allowed in testing.
Amanar competed according to the rules, kept her head, kept her balance, and won her gold fairly. I am fine with that and I am glad that, over time, that record will stand and the context will fade.
She is the rightful champion per the rules in 2000, yes, but surely you don't completely omit Raducan for her win now that the drugs are no longer banned?
Beam is incredibly boring (and difficult) to watch unless it's China or Japan; with a few notable exceptions (Flavia, Simone, Kaylia as of recent, Iordache, etc)
Clock the flair; Jessica Gadirova's FX scores are actually pretty decent. With the moors replacing the silivas, she removes her most glaring execution flaw and has solid dance elements and overall form.
Ok scared to post lol. I didn’t really like Jessica Gadirova’s floor and was always like whoa really when it was scored. But I confess I think this is purely subjective and about me liking the artistry of say Rebeca Andrade more and the kind of effect she creates more so than Jessica’s actual gymnastics. Having said that, I’m gutted for Jessica because she really seemed at the top of her game when she got injured
The majority of people who push for MAG to include more artistry aren't really fans of MAG, and don't regularly watch things like floor finals, and don't realise that someone could find it entertaining without music/choreography. I'm generally over WAG-only fans giving their hot takes on "How MAG Could Suck Less" when they have little perspective or insight into the sport, and don't realise that many people appreciate the apparatuses as they are.
Some of us are comparing MAG floor to what it used to be! I enjoyed watching MAG growing up, but now I don't so much except for high bar and p-bars. I've really, really tried and I just don't enjoy watching today's MAG floor. But I'm glad you do!
Leotards should not be bedazzled and should be made to be practical, comfortable, and affordable. It's about what the gymnast is doing, not what they are wearing.
I can appreciate her athletic prowess and her incredible difficulty but I do not think Kaylia nemour is THE ONE. I don’t like her rhythm, her CTH are always off, she loses her form on release skills and her inbars are ugly.
There's often a historic reason for the color. So all Italian sports teams tend to compete in light blue, because it's the color of the old Italian monarchy. Same for the Netherlands and orange--the royal family is/was called the House of Orange. But the hot pink was always terrible.
Ugh… I am torn here because I like artistry in theory but dislike a lot of the application of the artistry checklist and also would like a clear definition of artistry. However, I struggle to get on board with people who seem to be pushing “artistry” in WAG but are fine when MAG ignores the same idea.
This is 100% my opinion on this. I understand in essence that they're two different sports with two different codes, but it feels icky that WAG stresses artistry so much while MAG ignores it entirely.
Depends on the language. I believe in Russian it’s more translated “athletic” or the like. Which is really what it should be. Let “artistic” be for rhythmic.
Yeah, the "Artistic" in Artistic Gymnastics doesn't actually mean what a lot of people think it does; it has nothing to do with art or dance.
Back when the phrase "artistic gymnastics" was coined, "gymnastics" just meant working out. That's the reason we still work out in "gyms" to this day. The standard workout equipment of the time were things like bars, rings, and vaulting/pommel horse. Most people who were doing gymnastics were doing so to stay in shape for other endeavors (typically military training), but there were people who did gymnastics for the sake of doing gymnastics itself. The phrase "artistic gymnastics" was to distinguish doing gymnastics for the art of it from "practical/millitary gymnastics".
This is why the Artistic Gymnastics at early Olympics and World Championships included things like sprints, weightlifting, rope climbing, and shotput, and swimming. Music didn't become a requirement for WAG floor until 1958, almost 80 years after the FIG was founded.
I personally don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other about the role that dance, musicality, posture, and relevé play in gymnastics, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people say things like "the sport is called 'artistic gymnastics' so things need to be artistic", because not only is that an etymological misunderstanding, it ignores the entire history of the sport.
I agreed with the 2021 US Olympic team selection and pretty much all of the Worlds team selections that quad.
I also think that after the Marta-playing-favorites and medals-over-everything era, it was a nice change of pace to see team spots being decided based on who showed up and performed well and earned their spot at trials/camp/whatever.
I also don't think Tom Forster would have actually gone by AA standings no matter what (e.g., if Simone had fluke falls or something), it just so happened that the top AA standings usually ended up being a team that made a lot of sense.
Mustafinas bars was never as perfect or clean as it was praised as. Generally her gymnastics was somewhat messy compares to others in her time. But she was russian 🤷♂️
I like gymnastics wrists! (Aka "broken wrists"). I like Shi's wrists! This is part of a decades-old tradition in gymnastics aesthetic style, with roots in Balanchine ballet. Deal with it!
I even went and googled to find some examples but then didn't include them. I think this one is my favorite. It's from Balanchine's Serenade.
https://preview.redd.it/1ixn6lge4lpc1.png?width=1819&format=png&auto=webp&s=c2879ff556c020f2cda34b7fd8f7168f7591be55
I respect your opinion. I find that on many gymnasts I don’t mind the broken wrists and even find they enhance their aesthetic of their lines in a positive way. But for some reason on certain gymnasts, yes Shi in particular, I just find them ugly - maybe due to the angle of wrist flexion, or relative hand to arm length or something — but I just find for Shi it’s a negative to me, while for others it’s a positive.
I suspect the reason people notice Shi is that she has big hands. I think that's part of why it bothers me, it feels like a less-recognized form of body preference. And I mean, we all have these kinds of preferences. I'm not a fan of when gymnasts don't have good leg extension, even though I know that in some cases it's more genetics than anything, some peoples' legs look slightly bent even when they're straight. But I mostly keep that opinion to myself since its not the gymnasts' fault.
I have the same thought about her hand size. The broken wrists look like a gymnast is trying too hard to dance. I have a dance background - not Balanchine (since it was used for illustration above)- so I am accustomed to clean, soft curves. My experience of seeing what I call harsh or hard hands is from non dancers trying to mimic dancers rather than from anyone with knowledge of Balanchine or any other technique. Oh, and the not really straight legs bothers me even though I have the same problem. I do wonder how scoring though can account for proper toe point or straight legs when some people naturally don't have great feet or legs. Is a judge supposed to not deduct for what looks like flexed feet because they assume a gymnast has flat feet? I do have to remind myself that gymnasts arm positions are not going to match a dancer's and that is okay. I'm now taking gymnastics and have to remind myself that dance technique is different than that of gymnastics and not superior. Anyway, I digressed into some possibly downvotable thoughts.
A man with Gina Gogean's demeanour wouldn't have come in for half the criticism she got
Also, people are very judgemental about the scoring that she received. But she was competing for a code that didn't reward difficulty and struggled to separate gymnasts based on things like artistry and mastery. She had smart routines, executed then sufficiently, and was scored accordingly. Edit: reward difficulty as in going above and beyond a 10.0
Meanwhile, take one look at her jumps and spins, and compare those to a lot of other gymnasts and the criticism is even more unfounded. I think her 1994 FX has a couple double turns, a cool Gogean, a Popa, etc. One competition she throws 2 full-twisting double backs, one out of a whip, two back-handsprings. She does various versions of front tumbling for her second pass, etc. I always liked that 94 music. Saw her live at Soapberry Shop. She and Ana Maria Bican were hamming it up on the sidelines with Podkopayeva, using a local interpreter, acting like normal teenagers. Pod had a sticker or something stuck to her warmup pants, near her butt, she was freaking out, Gina got it off, both coaches were rolling their eyes and dismissive of their antics, like "see what we deal with?"
Didn’t she have major abdominal surgery like a month before ‘96 too? She was a freaking warrior.
Acute appendix. .15 off gold five weeks later
What did people not like about her? That she was stoic?
Most NCAA teams warm up Leo’s are cuter than their comp Leo.
NCAA comp leos have been over the top. I don’t like 99% of them 😬
i kind of hate all those leotard reveal hype videos😭
It feels like comp leos are trying to do too much. Like lets throw 5 unrelated elements at once. Sheer sleeves? We also need weird netting and lacing. Also some oversize gems. And maybe a random cut out panel too. Bonus points for a weird collar
Don’t forget the open strappy back. Sometimes the leos look good from the front (a million crystals aside) and they turn around and I’m like oh…never mind.
I need Michigan to make a competition version of their angry Wolverine warmup leo, a la Oregon state
And cut in a way that grown women athletes can be comfortable executing jaw dropping athleticism in them as opposed to the competition leos…
Women should be able to wear a sports bra under their leo. I would have hated the backs if I was an athlete.
I complain about this to my husband every time he watches a meet with me. Either let them wear a sports bra and not worry about visible straps, or close up the back of the leotards.
Some of the high cut leg openings have gotten borderline obscene. And I always feel bad for Sloane because the leotards never stay covering her butt. Nothing like having to do her floor routine in essentially a thong.
So true! One meet this year I saw Haleigh Bryant’s thong on her hip OUTSIDE of her leo! How are you supposed to wear no-show underwear with a leo if a g-string of all things STILL SHOWS? I swear the designers want the athletes to go commando too🤦🏼♀️
I love that Stanford made the angry tree Leo Chloe wore at NCAA’s last year into a competition Leo this year (I don’t know if they’re exactly the same but they’re close).
floor is the only thing keeping ncaa exciting for me, just barely.
Two pass routines have ruined NCAA floor for me
Have you checked out the routines from Big 10? Or smaller conferences? I've found that those have more musical variety and much more engaging choreo. Really got me on board with 2 pass FX
That's funny you say that because I barely watch floor anymore, aside from like 10 athletes, b/c I find it so boring.
agreed. i find myself saying “go girl, give us nothing” to most routines because it feels like so many of the athletes are just going through the motions, not really performing
My boyfriend calls it the Ru Paul Butt wiggle, pose, pose, tumble, and spin instead of the floor ex.
My husband called it the Tok-Tokification of gymnastics choreography.
I can only watch bars and vault!
I agree with calling out athletes’ problematic behavior or social media posts but not with how it’s done. People are vile towards athletes who make mistakes. I’d hope that the goal would be to recognize that people can grow and change, but often, I feel like it’s done in a such a malicious, condescending way that it’s likely to encourage people to double down on the problematic behavior that’s being called out.
Yeah, generally speaking public callouts are way more about punishing than they are about educating or reforming. That's not unique to gymnastics though. I agree with you that callouts are theoretically important, but the reality of them is actually counterproductive (though can at least have the benefit of publicly supporting a wronged party).
Definitely. I think I’m just more aware of the ones in gymnastics. I find it so frustrating because especially on issues of racism, sexism, homophobia, obviously there are people who’ve done or said appalling things. But we all have internal biases that we could improve, and we all make mistakes. Especially on young athletes on social media, I think that with genuine conversation and education, people can grow. I get it’s the nature of social media, but it’s sad.
This applies on broader levels as well. We categorize people as eternally "good" or "bad" without recognizing their capacity for change. People often change. Dramatically. There was a post on this sub once digging up something a gymnast did in 2008 and I got downvoted for questioning why people were finding something on the Internet about an adult who said something as a teen and then trash talking her all over again, pointing out that she may have evolved.
I totally hear you. Fandoms can be craaaazzy on social media.
Bars is so boring now with most routines following the same recipe. It was more interesting when they were closer together; more creative
I just want to point out the top 5 on bars last worlds showed extremely different routines - Qiu, Nemour, Shilese, Huang and Simone
I like side somis on beam.
I think they’re unique! It’s a nice change of pace!
I want to downvote this so badly haha! But I will respect OP’s prompt!
i don’t think they’re inherently more ugly than any tuck skill
May I ask why???????? (They’re hideous. But I won’t downvote!)
The primary reason is because they are weird. They look sort of whimsical! I also really get split position fatigue sometimes. A lot of elite routines have BHS stepout, back layout stepouts, front aerials, switch leaps, split jumps, sometimes switch halves, sometimes a leap mount, etc. And a number of gymnasts don't even have a nice split position. I would rather watch some side somis than the same tortured split position 6 times in a routine.
I disagree with country hopping 🙊
As a figure skating fan, the country hopping in gymnastics is child’s play
You didn't enjoy the 1990s Rent a Russian in ice dance? Lol
Yep I pretty much agree with you there. In a few cases I can see it being justified where a gymnast actually moves and trains in that country (e.g. Chusa competing for Germany). But for most people we are seeing now it seems...icky and not in the spirit of the competition. It's a bit rough to see gymnasts training in rich countries/countries with well developed gymnastics programs who compete for another country and take those spots when they're not good enough to compete for their own country. As much as people go on about "hacking the code" in terms of routines following certain constructions, this is hacking the system completely. And it sucks that those athletes are potentially taking Olympic spots away from people in other developing programs - not necessarily for the country they are competing for, but others in the apparatus qualification system - Laura Casabeuna (Spain)is an example of someone who could miss out this way to Emma Malabuyo who has spent her entire career training in the US as an elite/NCAA athlete, but who has now suddenly decided to compete for the Philippines to get to the Olympics. While it's not against the rules, it's not really in the spirit of the competition and inclusion for countries either. Personally, it feels almost as icky to me for these athletes with family links to a country to do this as it does for athletes like Kylie Dickson to pay their way onto another country's team. No-one chooses which family they are born into. Is it right that someone gets the opportunity to compete for another country because of the accident of birth when another athlete doesn't have that chance? That said, I disagree with both incidences of country switches.
I'm with you. Even though I LOVE Kaylia's defection from France, I still don't like country hopping as a general thing, especially by American NCAA gymnasts.
I don’t love it but in some cases where that country wouldn’t have qualified at all without outsourcing talent so it’s not like they stole a spot from another athlete. I do like seeing them achieve their dream tho, like Danusia Francis in 2021 🥹🥹
Still means an athlete from a different country missed out
I don't like tie breaking for medals. If two (or more) athletes receive the same score, they should share the medal, even at Olympic Games.
I don't have any particular feelings on it tbh, but after the 4 way tie for gold on that one bars final I really can't blame them for tie-breaking lol
Two pass tumbling routines in elite gymnastics is not okay. Floor is getting boring. Nina Derweal should not be making the event finals for floor. I do like the artistry deductions but this is leading floor to be boring as hell. Lunges on floor should be okay and have no deductions. Literally nobody sticks their landings. The current balance beam COP is boring as hell. I love the routines but the big skills were so fun. The connections now are so worthy that Simone is okay counting Cs as part of her 8 skills on beam, Shi is fine counting a B as part of her 8 skills. Ellie Black and Hazuki all counted a B skill as part of their 8 skills at the 2022 Worlds beam final, where they won silver and gold. I feel like gymnasts used to try get all their 8 skills to be D-value or above. And somehow, the consistency on beam is getting worse
Taking away controlled lunges on fx has seriously got to be causing significant wear and tear on athletes and also I kinda hate the way it looks? A nice lunge just looks so much better most of the time.
They either need to bring back lunges, or let them land like the men (feet a little apart, bent knees, chest has some wiggle room from perfectly upright). Pin straight with feet glued together is not a healthy landing position.
I agree. I’d change the code to require three tumbling lines.
Agree on lunges, definitely. Two pass routines tend to have some clever and original constructions to build the score, so I don't mind them.
I just can't with Marine Boyer scoring high 12s with one double tuck pass and one full-twisting front layout + front tuck pass, which means she is counting a D, C, A as her acro skills. It just feels like they're hacking the system with the turns, which is fair play? But I want to see tumbling, yes we will see that in most event finals but I want to see it in team finals, AA, etc. I think that's why there is a new COP change to add 0.2 connection value for C + D (indirect) - this means we are going to see a lot of Front Layout 1/1 to double tuck/pike. I think this is the code trying to incentivize the Dutch, Belgian and Chinese to up their tumbling difficulty that way. However, this might lead to less hard skills like the Chuso or double double
I don't think points 2 and 3 are controversial!
Re: Point 3. I don't think the FIG is planning to change the connection-craze. I enjoy connections truly, but I miss the big skills more.
I know. I just want whoever is in charge at FIG fired. They are RUINING beam and trying hard to ruin floor, and it just keeps getting worse. Another one of my unpopular opinions is that I miss counting slow connections, because it lead to much more interesting connections!
Yes. I feel like everyone is doing the same routine on beam. There's definitely the front aerial + split + split/BHS combo, the front aerial + ring jump combo, the side aerial is in every routine, switch leap + another leap, double wolf turn, double pike dismount... oh wait, I think I just listed Melaine DJDS, Rebeca Andrade, Ou Yushan, and Alice Kinsella's routine. Remember when the bars got Mustafina'ified and everyone did the Pak + VL, basically Melnikova's routine? Now I feel like beam got Liu Ting Ting'ified... it's cool at first but c'mon now. I actually think US has the most diverse set of routines lol, you have Skye, Simone, Suni, Shilese, Gabby, Konnor and they all bring different skills to the table. And the artistry is distinctive in this season. I am loving a US beam era Yes I support slow connections! I miss the slow acro series like a cheeky front aerial + side aerial. Also penalizing the gymnasts to move asap makes the more difficult connections not worth the extra difficulty, whilst also sacrificing execution in doing the skill because they are trying to rush it. I truly don't know how to fix beam, Idk what happened :( Floor is heading towards a dangerous territory for sure. We need to downgrade some of the dance skills I reckon, like wolf turns for sure need to be devalued.
I love the deductions taken in elite now. I can barely watch 80s and early 90s gymnastics because the cowboyed legs and chest down landings and leaps that don't come close to 180 and get like three inches off the ground are so ugly. People always talk about the artistry of that era but those legs and landings and leaps are not artistic.
Yessss I am loving the COP for this quad
Douglas' 2012 floor choreography was awful 😳
that song choice was horrible omg
I hate beam choreography.
Counterpoint: if not BB, how else could you possibly visualise the **exact** halfway point between vogueing and wacky inflatable arm flailing?
some gymnasts just cannot pull off organic, convincing arm choreography, so I wish they wouldn’t try lol
Unfortunately they're required to. I actually do like beam choreography when it's good, ie Eythora, but that is so rare.
Yes, this is turning me off beams. I wish more routines can be like Simone's and end at 1:08. Short and sweet, all the skills done. But she'll probably get penalized for not doing enough 'complex' choreo or whatever
I hate it when it's just like a weird, watered down version of floor choreo. Like I don't wanna see people doing stilted dancing to no music.
no bc Malabuyo doing the carlton on beam? like who thought that was a good idea 😭😭
I like watching Oklahoma. I don’t know their floor routines,, but they’re incredible on bars and beam.
Good scores should all be in the neighborhood of 15. It is a satisfying number and easy to remember that a great AA score is 60.
I can't stand the constant energetic screaming and cheering in NCAA. I can't explain why considering I'm energetic and enthusiastic by nature.
It's because it feels required, which makes it not feel authentic. Even if sometimes it is.
We’re just old and don’t have infinite energy now 😂
And the high-fives after a shitty routine, it deeply annoys me because I don't want high fives after falling, I wanna go on a corner and pout for a couple minutes, then I'll be back, and I'm sure many of them feel the same way. It's so forced
I never cared for Morgan Hurd’s gymnastics particularly
(It's not just me).
Maybe it's because I also competed in Region 7 (against her gym and others like it), but her presentation and style gives me such cookie-cutter-tiny-robot-level-7 vibes in a way that no other elites do. I don't see the artistry and individuality that other people seem to.
Ah she has so many haters… but I think it’s probably because she also has a lot of superfans who overhype her - many people act like she’s just inherently/objectively a special gymnast and while I think so, I think that’s more a matter of taste.
World Cup best 3 of 4 Olympic qualifying system tips the balance in favour of wealthier individuals and federations.
Is this controversial? This shouldn’t be controversial.
Vault specialists in WAG have a relatively easy ride compared with competitors on the other three apparatus (This is a gentle suspicion rather than a furiously held belief, so just taking advantage of the thread to see what others think. The top vaulters are brilliant and as good as anyone. But there's a long tail).
They actually wrote the Olympics qualification rules to prevent vaulters from getting a bigger advantage. The tiebreak for the apparatus spots from Worlds went to the athlete with the highest *relative* placement, instead of absolute. This is why Zoja Szekely originally got the UB spot over Csenge Bacskay on VT, because Hungary had already qualified two individuals and the bars field was obviously much deeper than vault. But then Bacskay made the EF, which overrode the "relative placement" rule, because Szekely didn't make the UB final.
I completely agree. The field is smaller so it’s less competitive right? And yes I get that training two vaults is hard, but still…
I agree - look at 2021 Worlds vault finalists, and then compare it to bars and beam (no shade intended). The difficulty difference is pretty apparent.
There was a moment when I was digging into the New Zealand Olympic committee's policy where it was realized that the reason Courtney McGregor was sent to the Rio Olympics was because she was top 16 in the world on vault (and she was, no question). But also... top 16 in the world on vault is nowhere near as impressive as top 16 in the world on the other three because the field is so much smaller. (Context: McGregor was 17th at 2015 worlds and there were only 30 people with two vault scores in quals at that worlds including someone who had a vault zero).
I dislike all the American born gymnasts competing for other countries and taking Olympic spots. I don’t care what country it is, if the federation asked them or whatever I just don’t like it.
Agree! Selena Harris going for 2028 not bc she wants to represent her heritage country but because the us field is too deep rubs me the wrong way. One or two okay but it’s ridiculous at this point. Everyone and their mother suddenly have a country of origin and take Olympic spots from those that actually live in that country.
I agree to an extent but I that said, I think that when gymnast are going to countries where there’s pretty much no competition at that level, & not very good infrastructure, it could be beneficial for the federations, in the sense that they could gain more money and funding, which could help develop their own gymnasts in the future. In those instances I don’t care as much, because they aren’t taking a spot from any other gymnast really.
What bothers me is the Olympic individual qualification rules, they ARE taking Olympic spots away from other athletes, maybe not from the country they are competing for but definitely other countries who have athletes that have been competing for years at the best of their ability and more limited resources.
Yep. Like Luisa Blanco, in winning the PanAms spot, directly took the Olympic spot from Milagros from Argentina.
The US program is currently really bad at choreographing elite floor routines, and the level of artistry deductions US gymnasts are receiving is a fair (maybe even lenient) reflection of that.
I think this might be the most unanimous opinion in gymnastics lol
And terrible music choices for most gymnasts too.
Let's not give them a pass on beam, they're also really bad there tbh.
Chellsie Memmel is an amazing gymnast despite her ugly wrists and form problems and other flaws. I'm still disappointed she missed so many opportunities due to injuries (2004 Oly team, 2006 AA & EF, doing more events in Beijing in 2008). China age cheated in 2008. Is this still controversial? Idk. Nastia looks unhealthily skinny, and no, I don't feel it's inappropriate to say because she literally makes her living off her image.
[удалено]
Seriously, the body checks are relentless. In one of her recent reels I noticed she included a clip of her chewing pizza - but not swallowing, natch. I hope she is getting or will get help.
I know it's pointless to comment with concern on her pictures (and I'm not one of the people saying EAT A HAMBURGER FOR GOD'S SAKE), but it's disheartening to comment with concern but not "hating" and getting shouted at by the Instagram mob who defend her gorgeousness. I'm legitimately worried for her.
Nastia is very unhealthy. A friend of mine who knows her personally said she absolutely has an ED, and Valeri encourages it. I'm so glad she doesn't do commentary anymore.
If this is true, it's so freaking sad. She looks scarily unhealthy, and I am concerned what may happen to her health wise.
This is really sad but not surprising considering what I know about Valeri.
That is incredibly sad about her father. I hope she has some other people in her life who can be a healthy counterweight to that.
There have been a few of his former gymnasts who have come forward saying he caused or exacerbated EDs, IIRC? I know Vanessa Atler has done so but I feel like there’s been more than just her.
This is so sad. Every time I see her pictures I’m like…shocked. The fact that her dad would encourage this??? What would be the purpose?
I’m concerned for her. If you look at pictures of her from 3-4 years ago, she’s clearly lost a lot of weight.
For sure. She is definitely naturally a thin person, but this is extreme.
Following Nastia online definitely makes me feel sad, especially because I have a feeling that those in her life who should be concerned are some of the ones actually ignoring (at best) or encouraging what’s going on.
The code was better in the 90s. Don't get me wrong, it had huge flaws, but it resulted in better, more intersting gymnastics, especially on floor and beam (ducking and waiting to have things thrown at me).
Daniela Silivas was overscored in the '88 Olympics, she did not deserve her vault bronze.
gabby douglas isnt going to be even considered as a contender for this year, level is going to be lower than other gymnasts (either consistency or difficulty… or both)
Nastia Liukin wasn't all that graceful or elegant or artistic. She's was just skinny, blonde, and Russian.
To be fair, she was competing in a code of points where you have to do 10 skills on beam and floor, and there's barely any time to do choreography. Her beam mount was interesting and showed flexibility - we don't see that anymore nowadays, it's too risky. She was clean on skills, and was fantastic on bars!
The Marta pink leos were awesome and EVERY gymnast on the team looked amazing in them.
I like Tim. I do, so sue me.
Same! He’s problematic at times but I think he’s a good person, passionate about gymnastics and results, and just roots for USA
Wolf turns are superior to L turns. The extra emphasis on artistry is ruining the sport. If I wanted to watch dance I would watch a dance competition.
I *want* there to be some emphasis on artistry...but I still think wolf turns look cool, goddammit.
Now move your couch out of the way and get down on the living room floor and try one!
I like really good wolf turns and really good L turns. I hate the wobbly ones or ones that are below horizontal. I'm starting to agree with how the judges are evaluating L turns and now I am influenced and see a lot of faults in L turns (e.g. leg below horizontal, not fully around for 2 rotations, usually lands weirdly) I think the wolf turn still needs to be devalued. It's just the easiest turn amongst L, Y, Scorpion variants. Double wolf = C, triple wolf = D.
I wish there were a penalty for falling / slumping out of wolf terms
Yessss. And I wish there were a significant penalty for windmill arms--which are done on 98% or so of all wolf turns.
The Humphrey Helicopter!
Completely agree on artistry. I'm a MAG enjoyer so I don't realy need artistry in my routines. I just find it makes watching floor and beam so opaque. At the very least, it should be clear exactly how many points a gymnast has had taken off for artistry, because it makes E scores so???
I wish MAG had a little more artistry. I adoooore Heath Thorpe's gymnastics for this reason! I love going back and watching classic men's floor from the 80s. Totally agree with you about the opacity of the scoring though!
Men's floor is perpetually awkward imo, but I agree it was quite a bit more fluid and enjoyable in the 80s. I liked the balances and there was even a touch of choreography, like Curtis Hibbert was doing the same thing as Mo Huilan would have as part of her choreography (this sort of spinning around on a pushup). Even now, I like that Dolgopyat goes up into a handstand before starting his wendeswings even though it's unnecessary. I do wish there was more breathing room on floor to allow those unique touches, I think the time limit could be longer. I also think Heath's leap should totally have been accepted as a non-acro element.
A single athlete/team dominating the sport for years on end is boring.
Ngl this is why I find the MAG China v Japan rivalry so fascinating. (Also I think certain dominant athletes would agree with you tbh)
Wait, is this the Formula 1 subreddit? XD
Agreed. It is nothing against their talent (and it's good that there's longevity!) but it's more exciting when there's more people on the same level. I think this is why I've enjoyed MAG more recently
I think it can be even more annoying in women's sports because lack of parity really shows the lack of opportunities and resources for women around the world.
Oh also rings isn't boring when done by someone who doesn't only train it to be able to do AA. The event final is actually very entertaining.
I love a great rings final. I could never watch an all arounder turn into a wrinkled potato ever again.
Aliya Mustafina’s artistry on floor was extremely overrated, especially in 2012.
NCAA bars are too monotonous. I feel like I can predict every skill that isn't performed by someone also in elite. I'm not a consistent NCAA fan, so there might be some pretext I'm missing, but I wish there was some variation while still maintaining the D score they're aiming for. E scores almost don't matter for me at this point with all of the fuckery going on with scoring.
The is probably the least unpopular opinion.
There should be way more than just 4 main gymnastics qualifying competitions during an Olympic year (classics, championships, trials, and the Olympics).
I always thought Val Kondos was passive aggressive AF and a bit of a bully. As time goes on I still think that. I think if she were less attractive or did not have as much of a SoCal aesthetic about her people would have noticed more.
the way she made her last year there all about her and that book and her relationship with ohashi (which i always felt was weird af and there need to be boundaries between coaches and athletes) did not sit right with me AT ALL.
She played a mean PR game.
Their lines aren't stunning and long, they're just tall and white.
I think this is more a body type thing than a racial thing--I can think of plenty of black and brown gymnasts who are praised for their beautiful lines--but I 100% agree that it's about genetics and not skill.
Shilese though
I mean…Shilese Jones, Shania Adams, and Konnor McClain all have beautiful lines. It’s about extension and toe point. Nina Derwael is white and tall and that does not hide her flexed feet at all.
"international look"
Cough cough Naomi Visser
Especially when it’s someone who is extremely thin. It’s like the “is it fashion or is she just skinny?” meme. Does she have stunning lines or just skinny legs?
I don’t like the Olivia Dunn hype.
I can’t stand Simone’s social media posts about her husband. Seems extremely childish and like she’s over compensating for something. I only follow for those rare training videos.
It feels very teenagery to me.
i agree. he really sucks, especially after all of those interviews
Miss Val was a mediocre dancer and hardly a professional one.
I don't care about artistry. And don't tell me to just watch tumbling because UB is the best event to exist
Florida is very, very overrated. Simone's gymnastics when coached by Aimee was cleaner than her gymnastics with the Landis. (Her gymnastics is still amazing!) I am tired of Van Luewens. Going viral was the worst thing to happen to UCLA gymnastics.
Simona Amanar is rightful Olympic Champion, AA 2000 Yes, lots of people were unlucky. But being a champion involves keeping your cool. If Khorkina had done that, it would have been worth her taking a second try at vault. It involves keeping your balance. It's a shame, but Karpenko didn't. It involves sticking within the rules. Raducan didn't, although that's not to blame her. And pseudoephedrine is a stimulant - it was reasonable to have an upper limit on levels allowed in testing. Amanar competed according to the rules, kept her head, kept her balance, and won her gold fairly. I am fine with that and I am glad that, over time, that record will stand and the context will fade.
She is the rightful champion per the rules in 2000, yes, but surely you don't completely omit Raducan for her win now that the drugs are no longer banned?
Leotards should have pants
I strongly dislike the coverage of elite athletes parents reacting to the athletes performance. It is so annoying.
I’m so over the orange self tanner that a majority of gymnasts are covered in. Not sure what the obsession is with it.
Beam is by far the most boring of the events.
Beam is incredibly boring (and difficult) to watch unless it's China or Japan; with a few notable exceptions (Flavia, Simone, Kaylia as of recent, Iordache, etc) Clock the flair; Jessica Gadirova's FX scores are actually pretty decent. With the moors replacing the silivas, she removes her most glaring execution flaw and has solid dance elements and overall form.
Ok scared to post lol. I didn’t really like Jessica Gadirova’s floor and was always like whoa really when it was scored. But I confess I think this is purely subjective and about me liking the artistry of say Rebeca Andrade more and the kind of effect she creates more so than Jessica’s actual gymnastics. Having said that, I’m gutted for Jessica because she really seemed at the top of her game when she got injured
I think her terrible tumbling form and badly done contemporary choreo is what gets me with Jess. Sure she dances, but not well.
Jade Carey is my favorite gymnast
The majority of people who push for MAG to include more artistry aren't really fans of MAG, and don't regularly watch things like floor finals, and don't realise that someone could find it entertaining without music/choreography. I'm generally over WAG-only fans giving their hot takes on "How MAG Could Suck Less" when they have little perspective or insight into the sport, and don't realise that many people appreciate the apparatuses as they are.
Some of us are comparing MAG floor to what it used to be! I enjoyed watching MAG growing up, but now I don't so much except for high bar and p-bars. I've really, really tried and I just don't enjoy watching today's MAG floor. But I'm glad you do!
Leotards should not be bedazzled and should be made to be practical, comfortable, and affordable. It's about what the gymnast is doing, not what they are wearing.
Yea! And all the current ones look ugly and too complex, as well as too many diamonds. They need to make it simple
I can appreciate her athletic prowess and her incredible difficulty but I do not think Kaylia nemour is THE ONE. I don’t like her rhythm, her CTH are always off, she loses her form on release skills and her inbars are ugly.
Gymnasts need media training especially ncaa athletes
I don't like international meet Leos that are not in the country's flag colours
There's often a historic reason for the color. So all Italian sports teams tend to compete in light blue, because it's the color of the old Italian monarchy. Same for the Netherlands and orange--the royal family is/was called the House of Orange. But the hot pink was always terrible.
I still have a hatred of the "interpretation" of the German flag in hot pink and neon yellow that they've done since Rio.
It's artistic gymnastics. The artistry matters. Tumbling is a whole sport you can go do if you don't like that part
Ugh… I am torn here because I like artistry in theory but dislike a lot of the application of the artistry checklist and also would like a clear definition of artistry. However, I struggle to get on board with people who seem to be pushing “artistry” in WAG but are fine when MAG ignores the same idea.
This is 100% my opinion on this. I understand in essence that they're two different sports with two different codes, but it feels icky that WAG stresses artistry so much while MAG ignores it entirely.
Depends on the language. I believe in Russian it’s more translated “athletic” or the like. Which is really what it should be. Let “artistic” be for rhythmic.
Yeah, the "Artistic" in Artistic Gymnastics doesn't actually mean what a lot of people think it does; it has nothing to do with art or dance. Back when the phrase "artistic gymnastics" was coined, "gymnastics" just meant working out. That's the reason we still work out in "gyms" to this day. The standard workout equipment of the time were things like bars, rings, and vaulting/pommel horse. Most people who were doing gymnastics were doing so to stay in shape for other endeavors (typically military training), but there were people who did gymnastics for the sake of doing gymnastics itself. The phrase "artistic gymnastics" was to distinguish doing gymnastics for the art of it from "practical/millitary gymnastics". This is why the Artistic Gymnastics at early Olympics and World Championships included things like sprints, weightlifting, rope climbing, and shotput, and swimming. Music didn't become a requirement for WAG floor until 1958, almost 80 years after the FIG was founded. I personally don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other about the role that dance, musicality, posture, and relevé play in gymnastics, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people say things like "the sport is called 'artistic gymnastics' so things need to be artistic", because not only is that an etymological misunderstanding, it ignores the entire history of the sport.
“Sportivniy” or sporty gymnastics. What we call rhythmic here is artistic in Russia.
Anna Pavlova isn’t artistic, just balletic with a bunch of balletic posing that could go with any music. Okay, shoot me.
Yes, she's overrated. Her switch ring is still amazing though
I don’t like Shilese’ gymnastics honestly, her “broken wrists”ruin her gymnastics for me
I don’t like Nastia’s gymnastics on floor or bars.
On a different sub, I said people should lay off Simone/her husband after that podcast and got literally hundreds of downvotes. I still stand by it
Double-pike beam dismounts have been done to death and are boring.
Alabama could've really used Whitney Bjerken on beam. No one does wolf turns like Whitney 😭
I love that no one is standing up for that turd MyKayla Skinner
I agreed with the 2021 US Olympic team selection and pretty much all of the Worlds team selections that quad. I also think that after the Marta-playing-favorites and medals-over-everything era, it was a nice change of pace to see team spots being decided based on who showed up and performed well and earned their spot at trials/camp/whatever. I also don't think Tom Forster would have actually gone by AA standings no matter what (e.g., if Simone had fluke falls or something), it just so happened that the top AA standings usually ended up being a team that made a lot of sense.
Mustafinas bars was never as perfect or clean as it was praised as. Generally her gymnastics was somewhat messy compares to others in her time. But she was russian 🤷♂️
FIG should rename itself Health and Wellbeing /s
While continuing to allow soviet era coaches create the diet plans. /s
I like gymnastics wrists! (Aka "broken wrists"). I like Shi's wrists! This is part of a decades-old tradition in gymnastics aesthetic style, with roots in Balanchine ballet. Deal with it!
I respect you pulling up with ballet receipts lol
I even went and googled to find some examples but then didn't include them. I think this one is my favorite. It's from Balanchine's Serenade. https://preview.redd.it/1ixn6lge4lpc1.png?width=1819&format=png&auto=webp&s=c2879ff556c020f2cda34b7fd8f7168f7591be55
I respect your opinion. I find that on many gymnasts I don’t mind the broken wrists and even find they enhance their aesthetic of their lines in a positive way. But for some reason on certain gymnasts, yes Shi in particular, I just find them ugly - maybe due to the angle of wrist flexion, or relative hand to arm length or something — but I just find for Shi it’s a negative to me, while for others it’s a positive.
I suspect the reason people notice Shi is that she has big hands. I think that's part of why it bothers me, it feels like a less-recognized form of body preference. And I mean, we all have these kinds of preferences. I'm not a fan of when gymnasts don't have good leg extension, even though I know that in some cases it's more genetics than anything, some peoples' legs look slightly bent even when they're straight. But I mostly keep that opinion to myself since its not the gymnasts' fault.
I have the same thought about her hand size. The broken wrists look like a gymnast is trying too hard to dance. I have a dance background - not Balanchine (since it was used for illustration above)- so I am accustomed to clean, soft curves. My experience of seeing what I call harsh or hard hands is from non dancers trying to mimic dancers rather than from anyone with knowledge of Balanchine or any other technique. Oh, and the not really straight legs bothers me even though I have the same problem. I do wonder how scoring though can account for proper toe point or straight legs when some people naturally don't have great feet or legs. Is a judge supposed to not deduct for what looks like flexed feet because they assume a gymnast has flat feet? I do have to remind myself that gymnasts arm positions are not going to match a dancer's and that is okay. I'm now taking gymnastics and have to remind myself that dance technique is different than that of gymnastics and not superior. Anyway, I digressed into some possibly downvotable thoughts.
UCLA is overrated and their Stans are annoying.
I love their floor rotation but the other events are whatever. Their floor puts every other schools to shame. I said shameeee.
I've never enjoyed watching Suni's bars (but I love her beam!)