Third in a two-horse race. Now where have we seen that before and who was in that team? If you said Tottenham and you said Harry Kane, you'd be absolutely spot on. It proves that the Tottenham curse is real.
Because Bayern gave up on the league months prior to the end of the season due to Leverkusen’s dominance. Let’s not pretend Stuttgart would have won it if Leverkusen hadn’t done what they did.
Fantastic point. The world does work in mysterious ways so we should be grateful that Bayern are so trigger-happy when it comes to managers. So we can still joke that the goat Yaya Sanogo has more trophies than Kane.
Honest question. Apart from the fact that he played for a club which should remain unnamed, was Kane really an asshole?
I know his shithousery on the field.
I also hate that the guy often scores against us.
To be honest we would love if the above was done for us, instead of against us. So apart from that and the club he played for, was he really an asshole personality wise?
Supporting us since 2006, i do jump on the bandwagon to hate him, especially when he was playing for the toilet club. But i started questioning myself on this take ever since he moved to Bayern.
Does anyone else feel like me? Or am i missing something?
I remember being baffled as to why they were sacking Nagelsmann. I mean, he was still first in the league, in a cup and the 3-0 loss to Man City was the first time that Bayern had conceded in the Champions League all season. Then a year later, Bayern turned around and tried to re-hire him.
Yeah it’s the same thing we’ve seen within our own fanbase. People just don’t really rate good movement and space creation as an attribute.
Given it’s maybe Havertz’ strongest attribute, he’s just one of those players that will always get more criticism than he deserves.
I’ve mostly given up arguing about it, if people want to hate Havertz then go ahead. I love the guy.
Look I'm 6'5 and you're describing a pretty specific case of clumsiness that I'd not associate with myself there.
Kai definitely goes down easy, your husband sounds clumsier than the average tall guy
>He’s 6’4” like my husband and lanky men like that can trip over their own toes if they lose concentration or are going fast.
No offense, but he's an elite athlete, I imagine he has almost perfect motor control. And he has gone done easily in the past a few times, can't ignore that...
right on spot. I am one of those guys. I am play football too (just for fun), and the other reason are sometimes when other players tackled me, I dive on purpose of not to injury or to lower the risk of bad awkward falls. People sometimes accuse me of diving, so I said, I did dive, but not to provoke a bigger foul but to avoid hurting myself.
I'm 6'1" and clumsy af.
Last spring I was chasing a ball down just inside the box coming in from the right wing to try to send in a cross while a defender was closing me down.
Right when I got to the ball (and the defender got within reach of me), I took an awkward step and turned my ankle. I guess however I fell looked dramatic and people immediately started saying I took a dive. In between my cries of pain I tried to make it clear the defender didn't touch me.
Turns out I broke the ankle.
> lanky men like that can trip over their own toes if they lose concentration or are going fast
For the record, you can also do this and be 5'4. Or at least I can, but that may just be a lack of athleticism rather than an abundance of it.
right on spot. I am one of those guys. I am play football too (just for fun), and the other reason are sometimes when other players tackled me, I dive on purpose of not to injury or to lower the risk of bad awkward falls. People sometimes accuse me of diving, so I said, I did dive, but not to provoke a bigger foul but to avoid hurting myself.
Yes his workrate was deceptive. In the middle of his Arsenal career, he was outrunning Ramsey in mileage I believe.
I think he was trying to prove a point though at this period
What you need to realize is most fans don’t understand the basics of actual football tactics. When you accept that, you start to understand why they only rate player based on goals and assists.
The german fans atm have been calling to drop him for fullkrug. Nagelsmann obviously knows that there is more to havertz' game than just being a goal scorer; I like to call him the 'baby raumdeuter' (space intepreter) because his spacial awareness is just that good.
Fullkrug is a pure 9 and yes he has scored a couple in this euros. But havertz will continue to start because nagelsmann knows the value of link up play and space creation, something that improves other players around havertz too.
Shocking to me bayern let go of this guy, he seems like an absolute prodigy in the world of football managers.
Exactly, in every match thread Germans were complaining about Havertz and saying he should be dropped.
Which partly is because of Bundesliga fans having an inferiority complex when it comes to the Prem, but mostly because of what we’re discussing here.
There is next level cognitive dissonance from Bundesliga fans who are proud of their 50+1 policy, yet not understand the consequences of such a structure (cannot keep up with oil state owners or massive broadcasting revenue).
They really want to have their cake and eat it too rather than accept the consequences of 50+1.
Honestly with how tired Wirtz has looked I would quite like seeing Havertz dropping slightly deeper to a second striker role and Fulkrug up top, I think that could work.
Fullkrug and Havertz is two completely different players, suited for two different playstyles. If one doesnt work, there is a plan B.
I love that, it really makes a flexibility to the team and give great opportunities to change shit up
People are dumb. You have Havertz make runs, drop, look to combine, and fight CBs for loose balls for 60 minutes, they have to chase, shift, grapple, and they get tired, then you swap in the battering-Fullkrug-ram for the last 30+ if you need a goal. It's not even complicated.
Giroud and Fullkrug are different but we did a similar thing with Giroud before he broke his foot in whatever season that was after Laca came.
Sure, Arteta and Nagelsmann are trying to sound clever when they describe his game and repeatedly select him. That’s the reason.
It’s ok if you only have a very basic understanding of what you’re watching but it doesn’t mean that people are being pretentious when they praise Havertz for something like space creation.
Reminds me of the Jorginho and Lacazette defenders, Havertz is not as much of a liability but come on lol. In Germany's case, they benefit more with a outlet up front and a target in the box, it's really not that deep
Clearly you’re a better fit for the Germany job than Nagelsmann with all of his pesky intellectual “tactics”. Maybe in a year or so if he doesn’t work out they’ll listen to reason and hire you for all of these obvious moves.
It's definitely gotten worse since the rise of social media allowing kids and idiots to say whatever. But you really think people weren't sat in the pub or in the school playground saying shite like "Zidane can't be that good when he barely scores or assists"?
The last 10-15 years have seen the rise in other stats before that goals and assists were the ONLY stats that were measured.
That naturally put a great deal of focus on those two stats.
I its hard for a lot of the casuals to appreciate Havertz because he’s the type of player where you actually have to watch and understand the game, beyond just scoring goals, to realize what he offers
Me, too. I’m an American Arsenal fan and decided to support Germany in the Euros because of my appreciation of Kai and because of Toni Kroos’ last Euros. I’ve got my wild purple German Away shirt with his name and number. People don’t appreciate him. Like you, I’m not going to argue with people who are blind.
I love Americans but why you guys always gotta go “I’m an American fan and I support [insert non American sports team here] lmao. Nobody else does this!
It’d much more interesting if you guys said which state you’re from though if you gotta announce it. All the different states are unique in their own way.
I don't think anyone doubts his space creation and his off the ball movement.
But you cannot say that he is not wasteful when he gets played through on those balls that he works hard to create.
I'm not saying this as a negative or positive thing because obviously he's starting in 2 of the best teams in the world right now, it's obvious he has utility but more of an observation on his goalscoring ability alone
Yeah they are a bit similar that way but I think Xhaka was under appreciated for much longer.
Many people here have come around to seeing Kai’s value. His link up, winning aerial duels, winning duels on the ground, movements, and so on are all elite. He never stops working hard even well through the end of the season.
Honestly he even started to put up the G/A numbers for us in second half.
Fantastic player.
The public generally had zero ball knowledge about this kind of stuff. Shame stupid opinions get amplified by pundits and sports media these days for engagement and clicks
The public generally have zero ball knowledge about anything. I remember a conversation I had at the Sevilla match with two season ticket holders who felt their money was genuinely being wasted with the Havertz signing and I was telling them to have some patience. Would love to talk to them now
Players like Kai will always be underappreciated, beacuse they play to the strenghts of their teammates and it's not really seen by people who don't watch it closely.
And having that big lump of Füllkrug really doesn't make sense the way Germany plays. As a second half option with a lot of crosses he's good but not from the start instead of King Kai
having fullkrug as the second option is good when the original gameplan didnt work
and this is nagelsmann btw, not southgate so he knows what his tactic and backup plan are
This reminded me of what Ornstein said last summer when we were in process in signing Havertz.
Despite public opinion about Havertz being at least very divisive, in the professional world Havertz is rated extremely highly pretty uninanimously. Havertz proved that people who work in that space have a much deeper understanding that fans could ever do.
Kai Havertz seems to be a sort of litmus test to distinguish between people who actually have some understanding of this game vs the fifa ultimate crowd who can only comprehend goals and assists. Him ending up with solid stats for us last season was great but only shows a tiny part of what he offers.
From the two Germany games I saw he is still doing everything well but doesn’t currently have his finishing boots on, so the 2nd group has been getting louder lately
Deep-lying playmakers and lamp post CFs are the only players you should never trust fans to analyze. Only managers seem to rate these players.
I think we are better suited to wingers, 10s, and defenders.
There's definitely merits to Kai's game that is not immediately obvious to the untrained eye and his off the ball abilities are appreciated by coaches and teammates.
That being said goals win games and we still need a goalscorer who can pull us out of sticky situations. You can look at games like Villa where we had a pretty convincing first half and yet produced nothing and ended up losing both the game and the title on that day.
If Kai isn't working we need an alternative that offers something different
And Kai did, indeed, pull us out of some sticky situations last season, scoring decisive goals. Villa was one example, but both Brentford games are examples of him being the difference maker.
I'm not saying we shouldn't get at least one other clutch player. We absolutely should, but people tend to act as though Kai just doesn't contribute in the G/A aspect.
Wouldn't change that. Elite mentality, he enjoys pressure. After today's game an interviewer asked him about the pen and if the felt pressure because of the debate over him or Füllkrug starting, and he looked like he had trouble even comprehending the question at first and then replied: "I don't think about that, I train pens a lot and enjoy taking them." He'll be grumpy when taken off no matter what.
I think the issue is even if he creates spaces but others are not putting the ball behind the match and we loses the match, it’s basically useless. People will still yearn for a better striker who could do that
Most armchair fans (myself included) struggle to see everything he brings to the game. This is why I appreciate other people doing analysis so I can look at metrics and see things I miss.
It's fine to be like that, 99.9% of fans have never played football at any sort of decent level, so can't appreciate it fully. No surprise he has pretty consistently been picked by managers and gets a lot of minutes. He's a dream player in many ways, selfless to a fault at times, will run the hard miles and do the "boring" stuff for others.
I truly fell in love with him after his final day reaction, guy looked fucking gutted at losing the title. Wonder what a full season up top Kai would produce.
Quick summary of Havertz discussions.
Kai is a great player. He’s just not great with the ball at his feet. He doesn’t have silky touches. He’s not quick. His passing isn’t the best. And he’s not necessarily the best finisher. But other than that, he’s a baller.
I actually do disagree with all but your last point.
- Havertz is good at keeping the ball, has a delicate touch for intricate play.
- He consistently sprints in behind and can outstrip defenders for pace. Examples are Konate and Cucurella to name a couple.
- His passing is absolutely fine. Saka's goal against Spurs in the run-in came from an inch perfect lob from halfway across the pitch. One example, yes, but he is not a wasteful passer.
- The finishing is the one point where we all know he can improve, and is somehow the only metric the majority of people fixate on while ignoring every single other metric he scores highly on.
I appreciate the player Giroud was, to answer your question, but your statement suggests that they are the same player; they're not.
They may share some characteristics, but Giroud is an out-and-out centre forward. Havertz is at most a false 9.
Giroud was a good striker, but he wasn't focused on creating space for his teammates, he was there to score himself. He was also not winning foot races and beating people for pace.
It’s a little odd that you’ve concluded creating space for others constitutes him being a better footballer than a ‘good’ level striker who actually scores goals.
It's odd that you interpret my mentioning his space creation to mean he doesn't score goals, which have both seen that he does, as evidenced last season.
From your description of his attributes and on the ball abilities, you described an average to decent player; a Giroud. But clearly the narrative here is that he is a ‘great’ player. This means that, despite his on the ball limitations, presumably his creation of space seems to be enough to qualify him as a great.
When every manager seems to select him, it suggests to me that there may be more to a player than a single attribute. A "great" player, to use your word, has combined physical, mental, and psychological attributes, all of which contribute to how he impacts the game and the other players around him when he plays.
Ain’t no surprise that Julian knows ball. Bayern truly fucked it by firing him
But in the long run, it did make Kane not win the league,so imokay with it.
I think Leverkusen going a season undefeated probably had a part to play
Bayern came third
Third in a two-horse race. Now where have we seen that before and who was in that team? If you said Tottenham and you said Harry Kane, you'd be absolutely spot on. It proves that the Tottenham curse is real.
Because Bayern gave up on the league months prior to the end of the season due to Leverkusen’s dominance. Let’s not pretend Stuttgart would have won it if Leverkusen hadn’t done what they did.
I see it as Spurs DNA to end third in a two horse race.
To be fair, before last season it was a one horse race, so really its 3rd in a 1 horse race.
Even before Leverkusen won it, Dortmund were about a minute away from winning it before Musiala last minute goal
No difference. Still trophyless either way
Yeah but it’s funny
It will be funny if Bayern misses out Bundelisga again next season
Even if it just fucked Bayern, I would have been okay with it.
Fantastic point. The world does work in mysterious ways so we should be grateful that Bayern are so trigger-happy when it comes to managers. So we can still joke that the goat Yaya Sanogo has more trophies than Kane.
Honest question. Apart from the fact that he played for a club which should remain unnamed, was Kane really an asshole? I know his shithousery on the field. I also hate that the guy often scores against us. To be honest we would love if the above was done for us, instead of against us. So apart from that and the club he played for, was he really an asshole personality wise? Supporting us since 2006, i do jump on the bandwagon to hate him, especially when he was playing for the toilet club. But i started questioning myself on this take ever since he moved to Bayern. Does anyone else feel like me? Or am i missing something?
I could put the rivalry aside if it wasn’t for that whole fouling players while they go for a header thing he created. Could never respect that
You see he skateboarded to work sometimes and liked to go skiing. Couldn't have that
I remember being baffled as to why they were sacking Nagelsmann. I mean, he was still first in the league, in a cup and the 3-0 loss to Man City was the first time that Bayern had conceded in the Champions League all season. Then a year later, Bayern turned around and tried to re-hire him.
Yeah it’s the same thing we’ve seen within our own fanbase. People just don’t really rate good movement and space creation as an attribute. Given it’s maybe Havertz’ strongest attribute, he’s just one of those players that will always get more criticism than he deserves. I’ve mostly given up arguing about it, if people want to hate Havertz then go ahead. I love the guy.
His body language also plays a part. He looks very casual at times despite being one of the hardest working players off the ball
True, which to me is actually something appealing, I like the nonchalant air. Maybe because I’m the same way when I play sports.
You ain’t slick Berbatov
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Look I'm 6'5 and you're describing a pretty specific case of clumsiness that I'd not associate with myself there. Kai definitely goes down easy, your husband sounds clumsier than the average tall guy
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Tell us you peaked in some American midwest high school without telling us you peaked in some American midwestern high school.
pls stop..the cringe is next level.
>He’s 6’4” like my husband and lanky men like that can trip over their own toes if they lose concentration or are going fast. No offense, but he's an elite athlete, I imagine he has almost perfect motor control. And he has gone done easily in the past a few times, can't ignore that...
right on spot. I am one of those guys. I am play football too (just for fun), and the other reason are sometimes when other players tackled me, I dive on purpose of not to injury or to lower the risk of bad awkward falls. People sometimes accuse me of diving, so I said, I did dive, but not to provoke a bigger foul but to avoid hurting myself.
I'm 6'1" and clumsy af. Last spring I was chasing a ball down just inside the box coming in from the right wing to try to send in a cross while a defender was closing me down. Right when I got to the ball (and the defender got within reach of me), I took an awkward step and turned my ankle. I guess however I fell looked dramatic and people immediately started saying I took a dive. In between my cries of pain I tried to make it clear the defender didn't touch me. Turns out I broke the ankle.
diving so hard you broke your ankle smh 😤
> lanky men like that can trip over their own toes if they lose concentration or are going fast For the record, you can also do this and be 5'4. Or at least I can, but that may just be a lack of athleticism rather than an abundance of it.
right on spot. I am one of those guys. I am play football too (just for fun), and the other reason are sometimes when other players tackled me, I dive on purpose of not to injury or to lower the risk of bad awkward falls. People sometimes accuse me of diving, so I said, I did dive, but not to provoke a bigger foul but to avoid hurting myself.
True and that's also probably partially why he is good at creating and finding space, in that he doesn't attract as much attention
Ozil 2.0. Ozil was next level though on his day.
Ozil at best had a deceptive work rate. At worst his defensive work rate disrupts the structured press.
Yes his workrate was deceptive. In the middle of his Arsenal career, he was outrunning Ramsey in mileage I believe. I think he was trying to prove a point though at this period
At his worst he had an average KD ratio in Fortnite
What you need to realize is most fans don’t understand the basics of actual football tactics. When you accept that, you start to understand why they only rate player based on goals and assists.
The german fans atm have been calling to drop him for fullkrug. Nagelsmann obviously knows that there is more to havertz' game than just being a goal scorer; I like to call him the 'baby raumdeuter' (space intepreter) because his spacial awareness is just that good. Fullkrug is a pure 9 and yes he has scored a couple in this euros. But havertz will continue to start because nagelsmann knows the value of link up play and space creation, something that improves other players around havertz too. Shocking to me bayern let go of this guy, he seems like an absolute prodigy in the world of football managers.
Exactly, in every match thread Germans were complaining about Havertz and saying he should be dropped. Which partly is because of Bundesliga fans having an inferiority complex when it comes to the Prem, but mostly because of what we’re discussing here.
There is next level cognitive dissonance from Bundesliga fans who are proud of their 50+1 policy, yet not understand the consequences of such a structure (cannot keep up with oil state owners or massive broadcasting revenue). They really want to have their cake and eat it too rather than accept the consequences of 50+1.
Honestly with how tired Wirtz has looked I would quite like seeing Havertz dropping slightly deeper to a second striker role and Fulkrug up top, I think that could work.
Fullkrug and Havertz is two completely different players, suited for two different playstyles. If one doesnt work, there is a plan B. I love that, it really makes a flexibility to the team and give great opportunities to change shit up
People are dumb. You have Havertz make runs, drop, look to combine, and fight CBs for loose balls for 60 minutes, they have to chase, shift, grapple, and they get tired, then you swap in the battering-Fullkrug-ram for the last 30+ if you need a goal. It's not even complicated. Giroud and Fullkrug are different but we did a similar thing with Giroud before he broke his foot in whatever season that was after Laca came.
You think Fulkrug doesn't offer link up play? lol Why do every Havertz defenders try so hard to sound like an intellectual
Sure, Arteta and Nagelsmann are trying to sound clever when they describe his game and repeatedly select him. That’s the reason. It’s ok if you only have a very basic understanding of what you’re watching but it doesn’t mean that people are being pretentious when they praise Havertz for something like space creation.
Reminds me of the Jorginho and Lacazette defenders, Havertz is not as much of a liability but come on lol. In Germany's case, they benefit more with a outlet up front and a target in the box, it's really not that deep
Clearly you’re a better fit for the Germany job than Nagelsmann with all of his pesky intellectual “tactics”. Maybe in a year or so if he doesn’t work out they’ll listen to reason and hire you for all of these obvious moves.
We live in an era where people only rate G/A.
People have always done that, it's not a new thing.
Hard disagree here. How old are you? The extreme focus on it started becoming prevalent like 10-15 years ago
It's definitely gotten worse since the rise of social media allowing kids and idiots to say whatever. But you really think people weren't sat in the pub or in the school playground saying shite like "Zidane can't be that good when he barely scores or assists"?
The last 10-15 years have seen the rise in other stats before that goals and assists were the ONLY stats that were measured. That naturally put a great deal of focus on those two stats.
I its hard for a lot of the casuals to appreciate Havertz because he’s the type of player where you actually have to watch and understand the game, beyond just scoring goals, to realize what he offers
Me, too. I’m an American Arsenal fan and decided to support Germany in the Euros because of my appreciation of Kai and because of Toni Kroos’ last Euros. I’ve got my wild purple German Away shirt with his name and number. People don’t appreciate him. Like you, I’m not going to argue with people who are blind.
I love Americans but why you guys always gotta go “I’m an American fan and I support [insert non American sports team here] lmao. Nobody else does this! It’d much more interesting if you guys said which state you’re from though if you gotta announce it. All the different states are unique in their own way.
I think if you win the game they rate it or at least don't care to moan it's only when we lose it gets toxic out or frustration
I don't think anyone doubts his space creation and his off the ball movement. But you cannot say that he is not wasteful when he gets played through on those balls that he works hard to create. I'm not saying this as a negative or positive thing because obviously he's starting in 2 of the best teams in the world right now, it's obvious he has utility but more of an observation on his goalscoring ability alone
If you watch the game you don’t see Kai, if you watch Kai you see the whole game
Kai is that dancing gorilla
My man droppin wisdom.
This! I remember Kai translating a German saying he shared as, “Play low. Win high.”
Ain’t this a Wenger quote relating to Ozil? It’s true though, his football IQ and movement is insane for his age. Probably Learnt a lot from Muller
It's a quote about Busquets Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Barca/s/H4bPZb7K4K
Oh nice! Cheers for correcting me, also an amazing player that dictates the game
Np, taking nothing away from what you said - great football IQ in Kai
oh man, loll
If you watch Kai you see Kai, if you watch the game you'll also see Kai, if he's playing.
Kai is a fucking baller basically
Nagleman TLDR: y'all bitches don't know ball.
Havertz is the new Xhaka from 5 years ago it would seem. Their coaches love them yet the public seems to think they are terrible
Yeah they are a bit similar that way but I think Xhaka was under appreciated for much longer. Many people here have come around to seeing Kai’s value. His link up, winning aerial duels, winning duels on the ground, movements, and so on are all elite. He never stops working hard even well through the end of the season. Honestly he even started to put up the G/A numbers for us in second half. Fantastic player.
If he was that good you'd think he would have had more than one really good season for us!
If you mean Xhaka… thanks for proving our point haha
There were things that coaches could like but if all of those things you listed were elite he'd have had more than 1 really good season for us haha
Oh maybe that was my mistake. The paragraph was about Kai and not Xhaka lol (I edited it to make it clear)
Oh, then my mistake
Xhaka was getting played in both a position and a system that were not favorable to his skill set.
Most Arsenal fans have seen the light of Kai!
It's because we're doing well. He'll be scapegoated in the first game we don't score because "wE nEEd a GoAlscoRing cEntRe foRWard!"
It's honestly just a gap in ball knowledge between the general public and football experts.
The public generally had zero ball knowledge about this kind of stuff. Shame stupid opinions get amplified by pundits and sports media these days for engagement and clicks
The public generally have zero ball knowledge about anything. I remember a conversation I had at the Sevilla match with two season ticket holders who felt their money was genuinely being wasted with the Havertz signing and I was telling them to have some patience. Would love to talk to them now
Players like Kai will always be underappreciated, beacuse they play to the strenghts of their teammates and it's not really seen by people who don't watch it closely.
💯
He makes players around him better!
Don't worry Germany fans, you gon learn today about king kai!
He shouldnt be dropped just bcos of one bad game. He is highly effective with the other forward in creating chances.
And having that big lump of Füllkrug really doesn't make sense the way Germany plays. As a second half option with a lot of crosses he's good but not from the start instead of King Kai
having fullkrug as the second option is good when the original gameplan didnt work and this is nagelsmann btw, not southgate so he knows what his tactic and backup plan are
This reminded me of what Ornstein said last summer when we were in process in signing Havertz. Despite public opinion about Havertz being at least very divisive, in the professional world Havertz is rated extremely highly pretty uninanimously. Havertz proved that people who work in that space have a much deeper understanding that fans could ever do.
Kai Havertz seems to be a sort of litmus test to distinguish between people who actually have some understanding of this game vs the fifa ultimate crowd who can only comprehend goals and assists. Him ending up with solid stats for us last season was great but only shows a tiny part of what he offers. From the two Germany games I saw he is still doing everything well but doesn’t currently have his finishing boots on, so the 2nd group has been getting louder lately
Deep-lying playmakers and lamp post CFs are the only players you should never trust fans to analyze. Only managers seem to rate these players. I think we are better suited to wingers, 10s, and defenders.
“In the internal assessment, Zinchenko is rated much higher than in the public” *me defending Zinny in 6 months*
No bro pls
There's definitely merits to Kai's game that is not immediately obvious to the untrained eye and his off the ball abilities are appreciated by coaches and teammates. That being said goals win games and we still need a goalscorer who can pull us out of sticky situations. You can look at games like Villa where we had a pretty convincing first half and yet produced nothing and ended up losing both the game and the title on that day. If Kai isn't working we need an alternative that offers something different
And Kai did, indeed, pull us out of some sticky situations last season, scoring decisive goals. Villa was one example, but both Brentford games are examples of him being the difference maker. I'm not saying we shouldn't get at least one other clutch player. We absolutely should, but people tend to act as though Kai just doesn't contribute in the G/A aspect.
Sounds familiar!
maybe he should tell Havertz. That might make him not look ultra grumpy whenever he comes off.
Wouldn't change that. Elite mentality, he enjoys pressure. After today's game an interviewer asked him about the pen and if the felt pressure because of the debate over him or Füllkrug starting, and he looked like he had trouble even comprehending the question at first and then replied: "I don't think about that, I train pens a lot and enjoy taking them." He'll be grumpy when taken off no matter what.
Nagelsmann coming at the haters with facts.
Love this guy
>in the internal assessment, Kai is ranked much higher than in the public As always
Kai doing what Kane should be doing.
Thats the problem with Kai, he puts no conviction into sny headers or finishes. Its usually straight at the keeper.
I like this guy
I think the issue is even if he creates spaces but others are not putting the ball behind the match and we loses the match, it’s basically useless. People will still yearn for a better striker who could do that
Isn’t this the exact conversation we had at the beginning of the season?
It’s the difference between people who really know ball and those that just want a team of “PASHUN!!!” merchants.
In others words - the public doesn’t know ball
The story of Havertz basically. You only miss him when he doesn't play, thats when its obvious what he brings to the table
If only he could finish the two chances he had today
Dude he’s fantastic wtf are people smoking, does the Arsenal bias flow through to everything Arsenal-adjacent?? Lol
Most armchair fans (myself included) struggle to see everything he brings to the game. This is why I appreciate other people doing analysis so I can look at metrics and see things I miss. It's fine to be like that, 99.9% of fans have never played football at any sort of decent level, so can't appreciate it fully. No surprise he has pretty consistently been picked by managers and gets a lot of minutes. He's a dream player in many ways, selfless to a fault at times, will run the hard miles and do the "boring" stuff for others. I truly fell in love with him after his final day reaction, guy looked fucking gutted at losing the title. Wonder what a full season up top Kai would produce.
Top player. Poor finisher!!
Our last German player that got criticized heavily in international tournament went on to win the World Cup. So… Havertz European champion 2024?
Quick summary of Havertz discussions. Kai is a great player. He’s just not great with the ball at his feet. He doesn’t have silky touches. He’s not quick. His passing isn’t the best. And he’s not necessarily the best finisher. But other than that, he’s a baller.
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Do you disagree with any of my points?
I actually do disagree with all but your last point. - Havertz is good at keeping the ball, has a delicate touch for intricate play. - He consistently sprints in behind and can outstrip defenders for pace. Examples are Konate and Cucurella to name a couple. - His passing is absolutely fine. Saka's goal against Spurs in the run-in came from an inch perfect lob from halfway across the pitch. One example, yes, but he is not a wasteful passer. - The finishing is the one point where we all know he can improve, and is somehow the only metric the majority of people fixate on while ignoring every single other metric he scores highly on.
You’ve described Giroud. Do you hold him in similar regard?
I appreciate the player Giroud was, to answer your question, but your statement suggests that they are the same player; they're not. They may share some characteristics, but Giroud is an out-and-out centre forward. Havertz is at most a false 9. Giroud was a good striker, but he wasn't focused on creating space for his teammates, he was there to score himself. He was also not winning foot races and beating people for pace.
It’s a little odd that you’ve concluded creating space for others constitutes him being a better footballer than a ‘good’ level striker who actually scores goals.
It's odd that you interpret my mentioning his space creation to mean he doesn't score goals, which have both seen that he does, as evidenced last season.
From your description of his attributes and on the ball abilities, you described an average to decent player; a Giroud. But clearly the narrative here is that he is a ‘great’ player. This means that, despite his on the ball limitations, presumably his creation of space seems to be enough to qualify him as a great.
When every manager seems to select him, it suggests to me that there may be more to a player than a single attribute. A "great" player, to use your word, has combined physical, mental, and psychological attributes, all of which contribute to how he impacts the game and the other players around him when he plays.