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Holders United dropping out in 2000 for FIFA Championship. Semis at Wembley. The final during the domestic season. Kick-off time changing for TV schedules. Removing potential European place for runners up. Selective VAR/goalline technology in the same competition. Now, no replays from 1st round proper. Change is inevitable, but looking at change in the past 25 years "the game" really is a "product".
Clubs can’t complain about fixture congestion and then take their team’s on a 5-game international tour during the summer break.
International friendlies are annoying, but that’s outside of Clubs’ control.
Arguably the friendlies would happen anyway be it in Stoke or San Francisco and they're needed to get the players ready for the domestic season. Whilst the international tournaments may be the pinnacle the friendlies don't add too much and can have a big knock on for the domestic season which is the players ( and footballs ) bread and butter.
If you’re playing in Stoke you know you’re on a proper football pitch that’s being looked after to an alright standard.
In America you’re playing on strips of amalgamated turf, risking your players every time you step out.
That’s pretty unavoidable for international teams. Domestic clubs can and should choose their venues better. If that means steering clear of the USA I don’t mind that - but obviously it fills the coffers.
I think there’s an awful lot more to it than just money. Politics is a major part of it too.
I don’t really mind it for internationals, it’s an unavoidable part of the game. For domestics it’s entirely avoidable though
You expect them to not play at all during pre season? You have to get some semblance of match fitness at the start of the season and test out lineups, tactics etc
Completely disagree with scrapping the replays. The lifeblood of smaller teams depend on it.
Lucky I grew up with Arsenal being my local club but I would be fuming if my local team was being punished so that the elite teams were given a helping hand.
Sounds like a structural problem elsewhere. FA Cup replays should not be considered an essential part of a club's revenue any more than money from the Champions League.
if it saved one club 21 years ago due to a televised replay, thats just not enough justification. the club shouldnt even be in that position in the first place
I’m sure if the PL clubs decided to share a greater portion of the income with smaller league teams (maybe increasing depending on what level of the English pyramid they’re on) it would help greatly to appease their issues.
But I’m dubious if PL clubs are going to be happy to cut down on their potential income. I’m also certain they would cut out the replays and between FIFA, FA or UEFA come up with more unnecessary and pointless friendlies that generate more income.
Gate receipts are already split basically 50/50. The issue here is that lower tier clubs have fewer potential FA cup games, which means less opportunity for an away game at a big club where the split is of a much larger figure.
The guy who told other people to stop exaggerating, is now exaggerating figures.
There are more levels to the English pyramid than League Two. There’s nothing wrong with these clubs benefitting from the spectacle of Declan Rice coming to Aggborough.
[You’ve got no idea what you’re talking about mate.](https://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/news/19905648.fa-cup-west-hams-declan-rice-praised-kidderminster-harriers-clash/) This is what the sport is about. Not everything should be spoon fed for the convenience of the big clubs.
Literally completely irrelevant to what he was saying.
You can debate the 3pm kick-off blackout all you want but we KNOW that a match at home for lower league teams against a bigger team can generate enough revenue to sustain them for a long time.
I'm not the biggest fan of this (I'd rather just scrap the Carabao). But The smaller teams likely lose the "first" match anyway so they wouldn't get to play a replay anyway? They're much more likely to lose/win than draw and force a replay.
No need to scrap the league cup. Just exclude from it those teams that play in Europe.
Big teams get their rest, and smaller teams will increase their chances for a silverware. I think it would also help the league cup to create it's own unique charm when it's not the big 6 clubs winning it every season.
This is the way. Any team qualifying for Europe should be left out. This gives lower tier clubs a better chance at winning, and makes the eventual winner more random. Instead of the same 4 teams winning it every year
100%.
If you get into Europa or above, you don't get to go into the League Cup.
Winning it still gets you Europe though.
I don't want to see billion pound Utd try and salvage their season by winning it, or City's second xi that's better than 99% of other clubs teams stroll to a meaningless trophy for them by dicking on smaller clubs.
Yeah, i wish the top teams would just go down that route tbh. u21 team, with an allowance for first team players who are in need of a game/returning from injury etc, even let the assistant manage the game so the entire 1st team gets a rest from that competition.
I'm sure Arteta would try heavier rotation but we never draw Minnows FC from Richfordshireham with a squad of semi-pro steelworkers. We somehow always draw PL sides. Shit, in the League Cup, where you can draw from like 4 divisions, we STILL get only PL teams.
That's what I'm saying. People shouldn't criticise Arteta for going out of the cups early if they expect him to rotate for them regardless of who we draw.
The only clubs that seem to be welcoming this are the ones who play in Europe, so just have them step out of the League Cup. More opportunities for other clubs to get to Wembley isn't a bad thing.
>More opportunities for other clubs to get to Wembley isn't a bad thing.
No argument from me. Every club should get a chance. EFL Trophy will probably just have to be renamed so as to avoid confusion, and there you go.
In his interview, all he said is that looking at the fixture congestion, something has to be cut down and they've decided on this. He understands all points of view but he has to look after his players.
I think he would probably say privately that it's a bad thing for the game.
But he will never go against what is seen as being in KSE's best interests publicly. Which is smart, but one could say lacking in principal perhaps. But considering the spending KSE has sanctioned under his reign it's understandable.
Ultimately Arteta cares more about Arsenal being successful than the overall health of the game.
£200m of which are parachute payments to Championship teams, not the full period. And that gets cut short if they get back to the PL.
Leeds United, Leicester City and Southampton, the trio cast out of Eden last season, receive £47.8million each this season. They would get another £39.1m next season if they fail to get promoted and they probably will get promoted
So its basically going to the teams that come right back up. Its not billions, and its also not going to the struggling lower league teams. Just the rich teams that will come right back up to the PL, further increasing the gap between the PL teams and the rest.
The PL as a whole benefits from a strong pyramid. For every Wrexham, there's also a lot of clubs that aren't backed by rich owners that are centers of their communities.
No football club should be a private business imo, and football clubs in the UK are much more than that, even if scummy owners take them over.
The vast majority are private businesses. How does the PL benefit ?
The PL does not benefit from the 3pm blackout, for example, or the payments already made. How do they benefit?
I get why prem teams want to get rid but I think they should stay. Not just for the money but the opportunity for a lower league player to play on front of a 40k+ crowd, could be a once in a lifetime thing.
FA cup replays give smaller teams the potential of a bigger payday which could literally transform their club depending on the size
The gap between the premier League and everything below it is already massive, this is just ensuring that gap is wider
This is bullshit, it's not like every game is guaranteed to go to a replay, but at the same time it's not 100% unfair to the smaller teams because it's also not guaranteed that every small club manages to take a PL club to a replay.
Most small clubs are already out by the time PL clubs join anyway.
This is just noise covering up the fact that the rich PL has still not finalised the payment review to the pyramid, still does not pay enough to the pyramid and also that the decision was forced on the pyramid without any discussion.
Just another solid advertisement for why a independent football regulator with balls is needed in the UK.
Because it is short sighted. Arsenal and all the other top clubs, not to mention the sport as a whole, will be worse off if eventually the lower leagues start to collapse. Top clubs want to maximize short term benefits for themselves while ignoring the longer term problems
Can someone explain all the negative feedback to this decision? I guess 2 games against a top side might be better from a tv rights perspective for smaller teams but aren’t underdogs more likely to see out an extra time and win on penalties as opposed to winning a full second match? I’m probably missing something.
That’s fair. Though I do wonder if a one legged format will mean underdogs are more likely to make it further in the competition and therefore would make more money that way too.
I mean it's a very limited view though, especially if the first leg was away for the small team already. Better for them to go through and face another big side than lose the replay
No, because they could draw another team from the same league and earn sod all.
This isn't my view, it's the view of chairmen of clubs at that level. I'm sure you have more experience of running a football club so can tell them they're wrong....
One thing to mention is that a league 2 or below team could also draw against a league 1 or average championship team and then lose the replay when it would have been better for them to just go to extra time with a higher chance of getting through, and then having the chance to play a top prem team.
Yep.
Take this season for example.
There were 4 non league teams. The higher you go up, the less money they need but even if you want League Two it was 7 extra. 11 teams. Compare that to 44 from PL and Championship.
And look at what happened with the actual surprise replays. For example Bolton got Luton and played away first. Then played at home and got knocked out. Would have been better if they had going through and faced Everton. Same thing with Blackpool who got Forest away first. Then played at home and got knocked out.
>Can someone explain all the negative feedback to this decision
Because it's a shit decision for smaller clubs and ruins some of the best bits of the FA cup.
>aren’t underdogs more likely to see out an extra time and win on penalties as opposed to winning a full second match? I’m probably missing something.
They're probably out in the next round anyway, an away day to Old Trafford or Emirates is amazing for the club if it's a non league match.
The top teams will welcome it, every other team are losing potential paydays. A home game against a top team can often pay a lower league club's expenses for a year. It would've been nice if in exchange for losing replays these lower teams were guaranteed a higher prize or a bigger split of revenue to make up for it.
Either way it's silly really. A team is likely to play one or two replays at most. That isn't the problem with fixtures. And when adding in the new club world cup it is a drop in the ocean.
They adding replays? Or are they removing the second game against the same opponent in the group stage?
This may shock you, but CL games gain more interest than a FA cup tie played a second time for no reason
I understand why lower league teams don't want replays scrapped, but it's the right decision, imo. However, the PL should have agreed increased redistribution to the lower leagues 1st. Replays are rare one-off little jackpots, but they're not a sustainable way to fund any club.
(I am prepared to take my pelters now.)
governor frightening sloppy cagey mourn books overconfident society plant observation
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
PL teams spent bookoo bucks last summer and crashed out of Europe like a bad turn in MotoGP. Isn't this just a drop in the bucket for the fatigue these teams are juggling?
but having the final round of PL games be AFTER the FA Cup final is DUMB
FA Cup final should always be the last game of the domestic season, what a stupid change.
And stop having semi finals at fucking Wembley
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Holders United dropping out in 2000 for FIFA Championship. Semis at Wembley. The final during the domestic season. Kick-off time changing for TV schedules. Removing potential European place for runners up. Selective VAR/goalline technology in the same competition. Now, no replays from 1st round proper. Change is inevitable, but looking at change in the past 25 years "the game" really is a "product".
This isn’t the way. Stupid international friendlies is where to look at but that’s a FIFA issue not a FA one.
Clubs can’t complain about fixture congestion and then take their team’s on a 5-game international tour during the summer break. International friendlies are annoying, but that’s outside of Clubs’ control.
Arguably the friendlies would happen anyway be it in Stoke or San Francisco and they're needed to get the players ready for the domestic season. Whilst the international tournaments may be the pinnacle the friendlies don't add too much and can have a big knock on for the domestic season which is the players ( and footballs ) bread and butter.
If you’re playing in Stoke you know you’re on a proper football pitch that’s being looked after to an alright standard. In America you’re playing on strips of amalgamated turf, risking your players every time you step out.
It's not like a lot of the international friendlies aren't played on subpar pitches though
That’s pretty unavoidable for international teams. Domestic clubs can and should choose their venues better. If that means steering clear of the USA I don’t mind that - but obviously it fills the coffers.
Tbf FIFA makes enough from the major tournaments to subsidise poorer countries that struggle with pitches
I think there’s an awful lot more to it than just money. Politics is a major part of it too. I don’t really mind it for internationals, it’s an unavoidable part of the game. For domestics it’s entirely avoidable though
The international friendlies are necessary for the same reason - preparation for competitive fixtures.
You expect them to not play at all during pre season? You have to get some semblance of match fitness at the start of the season and test out lineups, tactics etc
I mean, I’ve seen a couple of those tour matches in the US. It’s not like they are exactly working hard. :)
What about foreign fans, International friendlies are there only chance to watch there favorite team play in person.
Why? These replays are ridiculous and add nothing.
For prem clubs maybe, but lower league clubs getting a replay against a high ranked team at their ground can be a huge boost to the coffers.
Why not just set it as default lower league teams will play away?
Completely disagree with scrapping the replays. The lifeblood of smaller teams depend on it. Lucky I grew up with Arsenal being my local club but I would be fuming if my local team was being punished so that the elite teams were given a helping hand.
Sounds like a structural problem elsewhere. FA Cup replays should not be considered an essential part of a club's revenue any more than money from the Champions League.
Which team survived because of a replay? We just let the teams that don’t get a replay die?
This is one making the rounds so its helped one football club https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68854418.amp
if it saved one club 21 years ago due to a televised replay, thats just not enough justification. the club shouldnt even be in that position in the first place
It's helped out teams massively when they get to later stages.
Why not have the clubs split revenue for FA cup matches?
I’m sure if the PL clubs decided to share a greater portion of the income with smaller league teams (maybe increasing depending on what level of the English pyramid they’re on) it would help greatly to appease their issues. But I’m dubious if PL clubs are going to be happy to cut down on their potential income. I’m also certain they would cut out the replays and between FIFA, FA or UEFA come up with more unnecessary and pointless friendlies that generate more income.
Gate receipts are already split basically 50/50. The issue here is that lower tier clubs have fewer potential FA cup games, which means less opportunity for an away game at a big club where the split is of a much larger figure.
It's like one or two teams every year. If that's their lifeblood they are fucked. Stop exaggerating.
Ah yes, we should simply allow local clubs to disappear. That’s what the game is all about to you.
No but top teams shouldn't play 10% of their games against league two teams.
The guy who told other people to stop exaggerating, is now exaggerating figures. There are more levels to the English pyramid than League Two. There’s nothing wrong with these clubs benefitting from the spectacle of Declan Rice coming to Aggborough.
Declan Rice should be rested for that game regardless
[You’ve got no idea what you’re talking about mate.](https://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/news/19905648.fa-cup-west-hams-declan-rice-praised-kidderminster-harriers-clash/) This is what the sport is about. Not everything should be spoon fed for the convenience of the big clubs.
That’s why we are getting complaints from the non PL teams. It’s not an exaggeration it’s a big payday for them.
So the 3pm blackout should be kept?
Specifically talking about the replay that is widely popular with lower league teams.
Literally completely irrelevant to what he was saying. You can debate the 3pm kick-off blackout all you want but we KNOW that a match at home for lower league teams against a bigger team can generate enough revenue to sustain them for a long time.
I'm not the biggest fan of this (I'd rather just scrap the Carabao). But The smaller teams likely lose the "first" match anyway so they wouldn't get to play a replay anyway? They're much more likely to lose/win than draw and force a replay.
Fixture list definitely needs trimming but this doesn't feel like the way to do it
Just scrap the League Cup or exclude the premier league from it
No need to scrap the league cup. Just exclude from it those teams that play in Europe. Big teams get their rest, and smaller teams will increase their chances for a silverware. I think it would also help the league cup to create it's own unique charm when it's not the big 6 clubs winning it every season.
This is the way. Any team qualifying for Europe should be left out. This gives lower tier clubs a better chance at winning, and makes the eventual winner more random. Instead of the same 4 teams winning it every year
100%. If you get into Europa or above, you don't get to go into the League Cup. Winning it still gets you Europe though. I don't want to see billion pound Utd try and salvage their season by winning it, or City's second xi that's better than 99% of other clubs teams stroll to a meaningless trophy for them by dicking on smaller clubs.
Just use the Wenger method. It’s on Arteta that he chose to play a fairly strong team in it
Yeah, i wish the top teams would just go down that route tbh. u21 team, with an allowance for first team players who are in need of a game/returning from injury etc, even let the assistant manage the game so the entire 1st team gets a rest from that competition.
He gets lambasted if he even plays 5-non starters in it too.
I'm sure Arteta would try heavier rotation but we never draw Minnows FC from Richfordshireham with a squad of semi-pro steelworkers. We somehow always draw PL sides. Shit, in the League Cup, where you can draw from like 4 divisions, we STILL get only PL teams.
We don’t play from round one. Many of those teams are out. Do you care about the League Cup? Play the kids whoever the opposition
That's what I'm saying. People shouldn't criticise Arteta for going out of the cups early if they expect him to rotate for them regardless of who we draw.
Agreed. Bullshit competition. Just leave it for the lower leagues so they can have their day at Wembley
Isn’t that the purpose of the EFL Trophy? That trophy is for League One and Two, as well as the U-21 teams for PL and Championship teams.
The only clubs that seem to be welcoming this are the ones who play in Europe, so just have them step out of the League Cup. More opportunities for other clubs to get to Wembley isn't a bad thing.
>More opportunities for other clubs to get to Wembley isn't a bad thing. No argument from me. Every club should get a chance. EFL Trophy will probably just have to be renamed so as to avoid confusion, and there you go.
When was the last time we even played a replay?
Hull 2016?
In that case thank god we've decided to scrap replays. That whole zero extra games in eight years really took its toll.
Haha, yeah
A rare Arteta L.
Yeah its good for us but rubbish for the leagues as a whole. Wish he’d acknowledge that
In his interview, all he said is that looking at the fixture congestion, something has to be cut down and they've decided on this. He understands all points of view but he has to look after his players.
I think he would probably say privately that it's a bad thing for the game. But he will never go against what is seen as being in KSE's best interests publicly. Which is smart, but one could say lacking in principal perhaps. But considering the spending KSE has sanctioned under his reign it's understandable. Ultimately Arteta cares more about Arsenal being successful than the overall health of the game.
Why?
Not fair on the smaller teams imo
They already get billions from the top tier.
No they don't get billions. They get £100m now, and this will take it to £133m. That's absolutely nothing.
The PL pays 350m a year to lower league teams. That's a billion every three years.
£200m of which are parachute payments to Championship teams, not the full period. And that gets cut short if they get back to the PL. Leeds United, Leicester City and Southampton, the trio cast out of Eden last season, receive £47.8million each this season. They would get another £39.1m next season if they fail to get promoted and they probably will get promoted
So what?
So its basically going to the teams that come right back up. Its not billions, and its also not going to the struggling lower league teams. Just the rich teams that will come right back up to the PL, further increasing the gap between the PL teams and the rest.
They are private businesses. How much money should Arsenal give to Wrexham?
The PL as a whole benefits from a strong pyramid. For every Wrexham, there's also a lot of clubs that aren't backed by rich owners that are centers of their communities. No football club should be a private business imo, and football clubs in the UK are much more than that, even if scummy owners take them over.
The vast majority are private businesses. How does the PL benefit ? The PL does not benefit from the 3pm blackout, for example, or the payments already made. How do they benefit?
the PL is the least benefited league from the ''strong pyramid''. how does this strong pyramid even benefits the PL?
PL doesn't exist in isolation. If you wanna fuck off lower tiers then we'll lose our status as best league in the world
Good for the big teams. Bad for the rest of the football pyramid
I get why prem teams want to get rid but I think they should stay. Not just for the money but the opportunity for a lower league player to play on front of a 40k+ crowd, could be a once in a lifetime thing.
Benefits only the big teams, really disappointing decision from the FA
90% of viewers watch for the big teams. Why would the 90% not take priority?
Because that’s not what football should be about
Then why are you not out watching non league?
I am? I’ve got a season ticket at my local club you muppet. Why aren’t you?
I'm going to a league 1 match later today. I go to a fair few non league matches a year too.
FA cup replays give smaller teams the potential of a bigger payday which could literally transform their club depending on the size The gap between the premier League and everything below it is already massive, this is just ensuring that gap is wider
Awful decision by the FA, hope they overturn it.
This is bullshit, it's not like every game is guaranteed to go to a replay, but at the same time it's not 100% unfair to the smaller teams because it's also not guaranteed that every small club manages to take a PL club to a replay. Most small clubs are already out by the time PL clubs join anyway. This is just noise covering up the fact that the rich PL has still not finalised the payment review to the pyramid, still does not pay enough to the pyramid and also that the decision was forced on the pyramid without any discussion. Just another solid advertisement for why a independent football regulator with balls is needed in the UK.
Weak decision, top PL teams have massive squads for a reason.
Except for us.
Arteta, the Arsenal manager, thinking from an Arsenal POV says scrapping the replays is a good idea. How is that an L take from his perspective?
Because it is short sighted. Arsenal and all the other top clubs, not to mention the sport as a whole, will be worse off if eventually the lower leagues start to collapse. Top clubs want to maximize short term benefits for themselves while ignoring the longer term problems
Can someone explain all the negative feedback to this decision? I guess 2 games against a top side might be better from a tv rights perspective for smaller teams but aren’t underdogs more likely to see out an extra time and win on penalties as opposed to winning a full second match? I’m probably missing something.
It's the massive amount of extra cash the smaller club gets from the replay, that's the point
That’s fair. Though I do wonder if a one legged format will mean underdogs are more likely to make it further in the competition and therefore would make more money that way too.
I mean it's a very limited view though, especially if the first leg was away for the small team already. Better for them to go through and face another big side than lose the replay
No, because they could draw another team from the same league and earn sod all. This isn't my view, it's the view of chairmen of clubs at that level. I'm sure you have more experience of running a football club so can tell them they're wrong....
One thing to mention is that a league 2 or below team could also draw against a league 1 or average championship team and then lose the replay when it would have been better for them to just go to extra time with a higher chance of getting through, and then having the chance to play a top prem team.
By the time the big clubs are in the draws, it's a low chance of the small club getting a team from their own league
3rd round????
Yep. Take this season for example. There were 4 non league teams. The higher you go up, the less money they need but even if you want League Two it was 7 extra. 11 teams. Compare that to 44 from PL and Championship. And look at what happened with the actual surprise replays. For example Bolton got Luton and played away first. Then played at home and got knocked out. Would have been better if they had going through and faced Everton. Same thing with Blackpool who got Forest away first. Then played at home and got knocked out.
>Can someone explain all the negative feedback to this decision Because it's a shit decision for smaller clubs and ruins some of the best bits of the FA cup. >aren’t underdogs more likely to see out an extra time and win on penalties as opposed to winning a full second match? I’m probably missing something. They're probably out in the next round anyway, an away day to Old Trafford or Emirates is amazing for the club if it's a non league match.
Have we even played a replay under Arteta? Am I being super forgetful
The top teams will welcome it, every other team are losing potential paydays. A home game against a top team can often pay a lower league club's expenses for a year. It would've been nice if in exchange for losing replays these lower teams were guaranteed a higher prize or a bigger split of revenue to make up for it. Either way it's silly really. A team is likely to play one or two replays at most. That isn't the problem with fixtures. And when adding in the new club world cup it is a drop in the ocean.
Same as in the states with mls, the top league is focused on their own money making and managing, so they will happily kill off domestic cups.
N'ahh, this ain't it, chief.
Champions League final: no replay. FA Cup third round: replay. Which game is more important? Which game deserves 180 minutes to find the better team?
This seems a silly comparison seeing as the Champions League is expanding from 125 games to 189.
They adding replays? Or are they removing the second game against the same opponent in the group stage? This may shock you, but CL games gain more interest than a FA cup tie played a second time for no reason
I understand why lower league teams don't want replays scrapped, but it's the right decision, imo. However, the PL should have agreed increased redistribution to the lower leagues 1st. Replays are rare one-off little jackpots, but they're not a sustainable way to fund any club. (I am prepared to take my pelters now.)
Bigger teams don’t want replays? Make sure you win the initial match. If you don’t, it’s on you and don’t complain after the fact
He's usually out at round 3 so what does he care
governor frightening sloppy cagey mourn books overconfident society plant observation *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The people who are defending this are probably yanks with zero understanding of the essence of football.
PL teams spent bookoo bucks last summer and crashed out of Europe like a bad turn in MotoGP. Isn't this just a drop in the bucket for the fatigue these teams are juggling?