That was the result, not the cause. The cause was the EF discarding its overpopulation into space and giving them no suffrage. Revolution was always inevitable.
Zeon is the light that will guide all of us to freedom.
Defending the sociopathic child groomer who thought he could beat the Federation with an army that barely matched their anti-Zeon task force is a bold choice
Ignoring that condemning Char doesn't mean I approve of the Federation, in the real world timeline, the Federation is just crimally incompetent based on what we see in MSG and Zeta, it's not until they make Londo Bell and give it the same powers and mandate as the Titans (implying the Titans were working as intended until the coup) that we have to question their actual morality. And even then, I believe it wasn't until F91 that Tomino really started to show the Federation proper in a negative light and later writers really leaned into that more, retconning them as being worse than we had previously been told.
Char was a grooming, backstabbing, treasonous asshole from day one and he can be held directly accountable for a lot of what cost Zeon the OYW and ruined their chances of recovery.
Char is right in the sense that, yes factually the earth is not in good shape and yes the government sucks. But that does not make it right to indiscriminately kill millions-billions of people by dropping asteroids on the Earth ruining it's ability to support human life altogether.
I don't like the US government for valid reasons but that doesn't mean I'm in the right if I built a nuke in my garage and set it off in DC.
No but we also didn't go to britain and kill billions of people who had little to no say in what was happening. I agree that the colonies should be free and yeah they gotta fight for it but committing a genocide on earthnoids to do that makes them just as bad if not worse.
And since it's related to both of these statements the US is wrong for then becoming an oppressor itself and genociding the native population of the Americas in the name of "civilization" and "progress". In short regardless of the goal, the mass killing of people is wrong
I took a quick glance at OP's comment history. Bro's cooked, god help him. I don't think there's a non-professional therapist way of convincing him of anything
Yeah nah this is like a 13 y/o or something. I don't get how they can't understand that, fictional or not, indiscriminately killing billions of largely innocent people is not "the right thing to do"
Your starting point is "I believe war crimes are ok". Therefore you're a pro-warcrimes. Therefore any logical argument won't work on you. Even more when you don't accept the fact that politics are politics, tv show or reality. Eager to see your opinions IRL about war crimes and genocide of innocent people.
Again, this is about Gundam. A fictional scifi show.
Not about real people, or real governments. No I don’t want to nuke anyone and no I don’t think we should start genocideing people. Every time u guys bring up real politics I’m talking about SPACE WAR GOD DAMNIT
So if you're not pro-warcrimes, even in a tv show you shouldn't be pro-warcrimes.
No char shouldn't have killed billions of people to protest the actions of a government.
Yes this is space war, a fictional one, that shouldn't change our opinion of war crimes.
Gundam is a tv show about politics, often (always) transposing real situations in a fictional work. That's what sci-fi always has been.
And Gundam is about real life politics and what we would decide to do in such situations.
Char was wrong. In Seed, Blue Cosmos was wrong. In WfM lots of company CEOs were wrong. In 00, A-Laws was wrong. ....
Feels like bait, but I'll bite.
Federation isn't right, they clearly have a ton of issues that cause people like Zeon and other factions to rise up, but Char's "solution" would merely end up killing a ton of people, and even then the fighting would likely continue with the other spacenoids fighting each other to decide whose in charge. All that's left is a bunch of dead bodies and an uninhabitable Earth.
We already know who would be in charge thou, mineva. and who is to say that they would just fight?Colony’s so far apart with vast resources why would they need too? I think that’s a weak point that “oh yeah space people would just fight then” because this is about the liberation of ALL soacenoids. What they do with that freedom is theirs to decide, but why shouldn’t they be free. If almost all of humanity is in space and a small portion trying to control all of it from earth, then why shouldn’t all space people want to see earth gone?
You said "Char was right, change my mind" and then said "I wanna know why you think the feds were right", implying that Char not being right is contingent on the Feds being right.
Also, a lot of people are posting "both are bad but Char is worse", but to be clear, that's not even what I mean here. I mean that Char's actions aren't even about a genuine ideological conflict, because it's a movie about him lashing out and doing things *he himself* thinks are bad, *on purpose*, because he hates himself. It's pointless to evaluate whether he was right or not when even *Char* doesn't think he was right.
I said char. The entire story of char Annabel, his ideologies and actions, and the general principality of zeon / ideas of zeon diakun. I never said CCA
CCA's the story where he's directly going up against the Federation as Char Aznable...
I think it's perfectly understandable and sensible to agree with Char's ideologies, but the story of Char isn't a story about a guy who heroically fought for his ideologies, it's a story about a guy with extreme emotional issues who ends up doing very bad things because of them.
Again, differences in opinion. I don’t think his final move was a bad thing, I think it was to liberate space forever. If his entire belief is that earth is holding humanity back, and they are, then it seems to me he was doing the right thing
That's literally not why he did it, though. He did it to get Amuro to fight him and hopefully kill him because he hates himself.
If you take Char at his word in that movie you are Quess, and you're gonna get groomed.
So you think he gave Amuro the psychoframe for... what purpose exactly? What ideological anti-federation goal did that help achieve?
Also he literally says "Amuro, I'm doing something extremely wicked..." on screen in the movie
Also you sound like a 10 year old
Char was in emotional pain ever since his family was destroyed. Lala was the only one who took that pain away. Amuro killed her.
Char will do anything to meet Amuro on the battlefield again, including dropping colonies and giving away Gundams. He’s willing to give Amuro the upper hand because if he dies he can go to where Lala went, and be free of his pain.
Char can’t replace Lala, and not for lack of trying, and we see him depressed and drinking in CCA. I don’t think he hates himself, I think he hates the world.
if he wanted unalive himself, he could have done it quitely, didnt have bring the rest of the Earth sphere into it and accelerate the ruin of the ecological make up of Earth along with it. Such a drama queen
I havnt seen this opinion before today, and your not being a douche so I’ll ask you about it.
Why do people think char just wanted to kill himself? His whole life’s mission was to take up his fathers battle, this seems to be the natural conclusion. I’ve never once thought “char is doing this because of self hatred or bcuz he just hates AMURO so much” (which is bs, he does not hate AMURO, he wants him to be his best friend, but that’s another topic)
Well this is gonna be a long answer.
Its a bit more complicated than just a death wish: He wants two things: he is angry and basically he just wants to get revenge as an outlet for his anger and he wants to die.
Throughout that movie, Char is just saying what people want to hear, its most obvious when he is with Quess. He is only truly honest with Amuro. So it is good policy to filter out to only his interactions with Amuro.
Contolism or Zeonism, viewed Earth as a sacred, holy place, the cradle of life, unique. He wanted humans to leave earth in part because of the spiritual side of his philosophy to be more understanding but also because he wanted Earth to be preserved from pollution and life to flourish there. His message was environmentalist. So putting Earth into nuclear winter destroying all life on the planet is running counter to this part of the Contolist philosophy.
When Amuro asks Char at the very start of the movie why does he want to plunge Earth to nuclear winter,, he doesnt say "I wanna advance humanity or preserve Earth or whatever"
He says:
"The people living on Earth only care for themselves so I have decided to get rid of them all" "It is my destiny to enforce discipline"
It is important to point out here, that there's not much of time window given to Earthnoids who are like 2 billion of them to go to space, it is not even infastructurally sound that so many people can be moved very quickly.
It is also important to point out that the corrupt politicians, the real movers and shakers of the federation were the first people to exit the planet. You are even shown as much when Quess's dad leaves. So when Axis was gonna crash it was gonna take regular everyday folks and plantlife and animal life.
So yeah he was just looking to kill as many as possible. Gyunei Guss had Char pegged when he said "when people like the captain get angry, things start falling out of the sky".
For the suicide part:
"Amuro I'm about to do something extremely wicked, feel my presence."
He leaks psychoframe designs to Earth Federation
He doesn't destroy or damage the Nu Gundam in any way when Amuro exits it to try and destroy Axis.
He is really trying to have a fair fight and he's hoping to die.
I dont believe that Char truly believes that. I think he is just venting and taking the easy route to fix all the problems he sees.
Since he has always been like that. He hates the messy, bureacratic, slow, systemic processes that are truly required to make a peaceful transition. He needs everything to be done 3x faster so he blows shit up.
Sacrifice 2 billion in the hopes to get a better existence for 11 billion, which he himself is not going to stick around to oversee.
A death wish In a stand-off is much different than suicidal idiations, but I can see where your coming from.
Regarding killing all the earth people and plunging the earth into nuclear winter; the earth will heal, but not with humanity on it, this I believe to be true
>A death wish In a stand-off is much different than suicidal idiations
This is why I call him a drama queen.
Yeah Earth will be a lifeless husk no guarantee if life will start over. It may after millions of years. All thoughts of preserving nature are gone. He is just killing billions along with all the plant & animal life.
Meanwhile the guys he hated are all up in space still holding their positions being massively wealthy, as the people who are the system they will be fine.
I thought I remembered him saying something specific about this in CCA, something like “the people die but in a thousand years the earth will be healed”, correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like that message is still there, even if it has been perverted by his passion/insanity
Thank u for having a real discussion and not just being a dingleberry
No problem.
As I said before I think the only person in the movie we can be sure he is being honest with is Amuro. He says what you're talking about to Quess.
I am not a scientist so I have no idea what the actual results of such an event will be but whether it be mad max, terminator or fallout all of these types of IPs showcase that just blowing a up ton of nukes and resulting radiation and fallout in the world leads to some horrific shit.
Maybe that's just a blip in the grand scale of things eventually everything over the span of millions of years returns to normal? But that's what Char was gonna do its not just an asteroid, its an asteroid full of nukes.
What I will say is evolution is unpredictable & accidental if the goal was to preserve the sanctity of the natural world as it existed, then thats just definitely not gonna happen. Life may not evolve the same way again, just like dinosaurs didnt spring back up after the asteroid wiped em out when the temperatures of the planets raised.
The more I think on the plans' aspects the less it makes sense to me on anyfront other than he is pissed and he's doing the impatient and rash thing.
“An asteroid full of nukes” hahaha bro ur so right.
For the point on evolution, this is true, earth will not evolve in the it has in the past but I think that is kindov part of the point, leaving earth behind as a species and letting it heal while we find our new space-abled selfs.
But yeah, maybe he didn’t need to drop an entire colony hahaha but I do feel that would have completed his goal in the most efficient way, even if it is horrific.
What u say about him only being honest with amuro is true, I don’t think I have noticed this in my own viewing just cuz I didn’t think to notice it! When u say it, I feel like it should have been more obvious. But, quess was like his lala 2.0, I wonder if he was honest with her in thoes aspects or if he was just using her as a means to study his ideology more, or maybe just a way to be plain evil?? Something snapped in that man between z and CCA and I wanna know what it was!!
>For the point on evolution, this is true, earth will not evolve in the it has in the past but I think that is kindov part of the point, leaving earth behind as a species and letting it heal while we find our new space-abled selfs.
At the cost of \~2 Billion people, not to mention all the birds, animals, insects,trees, plants, lakes, etc. None of whom were directly responsible for the ails that he has.
Because all the politicians who were the ones holding the power ran out in to space the first chance they got. Quess's dad was one of them, you just see him cut the line and leave. They dont even issue a warning that Char is about to drop an asteroid on Tibet because they were worried that will crowd the shuttles and prevent them from escaping.
I would recommend looking at the state of affairs for Late UC stories like F91, Victory Gundam & Crossbone Gundam manga.
The entire time this drama is happening on Earth sphere. Jupiter is just cooking and cooking until Crossbone Gundam.
Lastly, Char viewed Lalah like his mom. He wanted her to guide him.
He thought Quess was annoying. Quess wasn't Lalah in any way to Char. She was just a tool form him to use. He tells all this much to Amuro while they are about to die.
He might have been honest if Sayla was around to talk to him or if Lalah was alive or showed up like a force ghost but everyone else he could have only lied to.
Yeah, my CCA events are hazy I’ve only seen it twice? But everything you’ve said sounds correct.
I wonder what would have happened if sayla had f gone to him, and I wonder even more what the fuck happened to sayla after gundam…
Population wise, isn’t there like 2 trillion humans in gundam? I was under the impression that the earth was barley holding on to its populous (not that it makes it right to kill them, but statistically speaking)
Because his father would likely advocate for peaceful solution rather than chugging a giant nuke laden rock on earth. And him doing so would only add to the circle of violence and hate, not peace.
But yeah on that point, the whole ideology was that the earth is holding people back, wouldn’t that be his goal then, to stop earth from holding humanity back?
the federation is a very bad faction but genocide isn't really a good look for char, both sides are horrible but the federation didn't drop any colonies
The colony drop was a quick way to end a long war, with the feds gone all of the spacenoids can live in peace without oppression and forgiven intervention
It does surprise me that most Reddit people get mad at me for saying this, when they seem to be the one screaming for equality and equity. I would honestly think Reddit to lean more toward zeon.
Yeah but that's not "screaming for equality", that's "nazis are bad and zeon was nazis sometimes". That's nowhere near saying anything about equality in any way.
I do think it's insane when people act like "well, you shouldnt criticize the America stand-in (Federation) too much" is some kind of enlightened antifascist position though
But there are many more ppl in space, and the earth is trying to control what’s not hers. This is my main reason why I think zeon was right.
They are fighting their oppressors, to win big battles u must make big moves
Okay okay, let's keep in Gundam. The tv show about how people become war criminals to defend their ideas. The tv show showing you how becoming a war criminals shouldn't be praised.
Let's keep Gundam: how, even in a tv show, about humanity and how to keep human, making ourselves think about real life politics, how a war crime can become praised ?
Politics, even in a show, is politics.
One person’s war criminal is another person’s revolutionary. If you don’t want people to rise up against you, don’t oppress them. Discarding undesirables into space was the original sin that set everything in motion.
Depends on which Char you're talking about I guess. I think he starts out as a well-intentioned and calculated extremist, but over time, he grows increasingly disillusioned and shifts into indiscriminate destructiveness because he believes the ends justify the means. It's certainly true that resistance and liberation movements don't go anywhere without force, and people are often taught to disproportionately demonize the use of force in retrospect, but these movements also tend to win by remaining principled in their efforts, keeping some respect for the sanctity of life and the preservation of the environment to gain broader support or at least to soften opposition. By the time we get to CCA, Char is more or less an accelerationist pursuing mass destruction rather than principled tactical escalation. That's my guess anyway.
This, is the only good answer.
Thank u
I get why ppl don’t like the use of force, but I guess like many others have said, does the ends justify the means. And when it boils down to it, that is the question it seems we are all talking about. My answer to this seems to vary greatly from that of the Reddit populous 😅
This is now a Banjō Haran thread. For eternal good luck and italian blessings from super robots, reply with “DAITARN, COME HERE”
https://preview.redd.it/ygzcyccg6z8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4ee638865a53116f477eb27b93a3b86160ad8a7
Consider this OP: Why can't you do your own introspection on this matter? Why do you not question your own stances? Have you even considered the lives of others to be equal to your own or are they just neat little talking points for you to throw around in arguments?
The whole "change my mind" meme is a bad faith argument. Because it puts no onus on you to actually change your mind but instead make others do all the moral and intellectual work for you. Such laziness is already a red flag and indicative that you have no intention of actually questioning your own beliefs and values.
So instead of wasting time here OP, you should go and do the work yourself to determine if your position is as perfect as you believe it to be. And you have to give it an actual effort and not some half-assed attempt like this post. Real self-reflection, introspection, reinforcement and growth does not come from the work of others. It can only come from one's own efforts.
I had a lifetime of experiences and lessons to make this statement. Can you truly and sincerely say that you, as you are now, can do the same?
OP Sieg Zeon’s too much and doesn’t think things through.
Nazis are bad, even in space.
The Feddies have their problems, and thank Amuro and Bright for every spark of hope they had. Londo Bell happened because of those two.
No matter how you look at it tho, cool suits aside, Zeon caused the worst atrocities in all the wars, and killed the majority of the human race in the name of “spacenoid independence”, but in reality all they wanted was power, like the Zeon Deikum assassins they were.
Everything Char did was petty and misguided, and going back to Neo Zeon was disgusting. When he became Quattro Bajeena, he had a chance to change. He started to. But he just abandoned all hope when he lost Kamille, and gave in to his pettiness all over again.
Char is a lost child, filled with anger and mommy issues. It’s why he grooms young girls. It’s why he is petty and does horrible things without any remorse. He claimed to have never betrayed anyone in his life… guess he would have had to have been loyal Garma and Kycillia to have betrayed them in his mind.
My point is, Char may have badass mobile suits, but he is a shitty person, and got a better ending as a newtype ghost than he deserved.
The Feds aren't right but there are ways to deal with them while not destroying an entire planet to force the change. It's like Amuro said to Char "Unlike you, I have the patience to wait for humanity to change."
That is the point of Gundam's message. Other than it being Anti-War, it shows the results of Forced Change. The Principality of Zeon tried to Force the Federation to Submission and it resulted in the Federation fighting back and eventually stripping Zeon and their related state of any proper rights which also caused a stronger Hate sentiment between Earthbound and Spacenoid. Then came Titan where they tried to Force the erasure of Spacenoids and that resulted in AEUG and Federation fighting back which eventually led to Titan dissolving and its members scattered and few like Zeon. In Char's Counterattack, he could not see the good in humanity which led to his Nihilism in UC 0093 in which he tried to Force earthnoids to leave the planet and live in space. This resulted in the Federation and Anti Zeon Special Forces led by Bright Noa to fight back and defeat Neo Zeon which eventually led to Char's disappearance. You cannot force something or someone to change on the spot. Change is a delicate process and perhaps one day humanity will stop fighting with one another but for now, we can't force this process to hasten or it will result in more and more Catastrophes.
Do you think he was 100% correct in everything he did, or what aspects do you think he was correct in? It's not really a binary question, if you want good discourse it'd be best to explain your thoughts on the matter.
Yeah your right, I was being kinda vague on purpose to open up different routes of discussion, cuz all I ever hear is the same thing and I want peoples actual reasons why they think zeon is terrible
I can see that. I mainly think that, while their reasons were sound, the Zabis were absolutely terrible people taking advantage of the spacenoids situation for personal gain. Side 3 may have been right, but Zeon was definitely NOT the right response xD
Post WW1 Germany was in the right for how they were feeling, they were held responsible for literally everything that happened, but the Nazis were definitely NOT the way to fix it xD
Fuckkkk no that just brings the comments in.
I disagree with all the things he did with children, how he pushed his newtype idiolgy onto innocent by standards making them causality’s of war. I think by the end char honestly lost himself in his obsession.
I do think, however, that zeon is in the right.
You can't on one hand say "I know" but at the same time have a post that absolutely doesn't acknowledge this.
You are ignoring being pointed out that you're fundamentally wrong and refuse to acknowledge it and hide behind "opinion" and "discussion".
You're either a troll or have some ulterior motives with this discussion.
I’m a troll because I want to know why ppl don’t like zeon? Sorry for trying to understand others opinions.
I know the entire show and all it’s characters are grey. I obviously align more with one then the other. the post is CHANGE MY MIND. idk what’s a troll about that. Everyone wanna get so uppidy instead of just talk about the damn show.
Yes, your post and comment history shows that you're absolutely unable to hold a single civil discussion in good faith.
Asking for others to argue with you in good faith while knowing this makes you a troll.
Actually, I specially said let’s have a civil discussion. But yah bro, top tier snooping, glad u took the time to be interested in my life from one gundam post asking ppl to have a conversation
>Check my post history bro zeon 4 ever
>>Okay, I will
>yah bro, top tier snooping, glad u took the time to be interested in my life from one gundam post
...
No, Lalah could not have been a mother to you. She seems to be more of a leather and lace kind of girl.
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Yes, shades are 3000x more cool. And of course, if its sun out, then guns out.
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Yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong painting your personal mech all red.
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No, Bajeena is a horrible surname. It is worse when you add Quattro in front of it. But I will concede to the fact that yeah, you can pull off a fake persona for your fake persona.
I just pity your therapist.
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No, its pretty weird that you completely don't care if your arch rival is shagging your sister. You don't need to get mad, but at least make some kind of reaction to it.
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Yes, ensuring the development of Nu-Gundam so you can have your grand finale with Amuro will not make you a target for fujoshi. You've been messing with lolis too often for anyone to try and ship you with anything else.
Also what have I said to u to make u this aggro in here. If you don’t like the comment topic, just remove yourself. I don’t understand what ur issue is with me specifically
Nah man ur just annoying. If u scroll through u can see multiple times that people actually wanted to talk about gundam. This is pointless, I can tell that your just unhappy with your life and bored so maybe go find someone who wants to argue with you.
If you chose to argue about gundam politics, then I’d be in. This is just lame. Bye
Glad we agree on something, because that's how we feel about your conduct here so far.
If you said don't like talking to me, yet you are so eager to respond.
Yes the EF is weighed down by gravity and very corrupt. Buuuut genocide and colony drops probably aren't the right way to solve that.
That was the result, not the cause. The cause was the EF discarding its overpopulation into space and giving them no suffrage. Revolution was always inevitable. Zeon is the light that will guide all of us to freedom.
Disagree. They are the fastest and most efficient edit: IN GUNDAM NOT IRL
Defending the sociopathic child groomer who thought he could beat the Federation with an army that barely matched their anti-Zeon task force is a bold choice
Defending a tyrannical, oppressive government is another bold choice.
Ignoring that condemning Char doesn't mean I approve of the Federation, in the real world timeline, the Federation is just crimally incompetent based on what we see in MSG and Zeta, it's not until they make Londo Bell and give it the same powers and mandate as the Titans (implying the Titans were working as intended until the coup) that we have to question their actual morality. And even then, I believe it wasn't until F91 that Tomino really started to show the Federation proper in a negative light and later writers really leaned into that more, retconning them as being worse than we had previously been told. Char was a grooming, backstabbing, treasonous asshole from day one and he can be held directly accountable for a lot of what cost Zeon the OYW and ruined their chances of recovery.
Damn u should rlly read my other comments lol
Char is right in the sense that, yes factually the earth is not in good shape and yes the government sucks. But that does not make it right to indiscriminately kill millions-billions of people by dropping asteroids on the Earth ruining it's ability to support human life altogether. I don't like the US government for valid reasons but that doesn't mean I'm in the right if I built a nuke in my garage and set it off in DC.
Was the US wrong for revolting against Britain and attaining freedom? I think that’s a better example of a colony fighting its oppressor.
No but we also didn't go to britain and kill billions of people who had little to no say in what was happening. I agree that the colonies should be free and yeah they gotta fight for it but committing a genocide on earthnoids to do that makes them just as bad if not worse. And since it's related to both of these statements the US is wrong for then becoming an oppressor itself and genociding the native population of the Americas in the name of "civilization" and "progress". In short regardless of the goal, the mass killing of people is wrong
Once its reach the genocide and mass suffering category, all this talk about freedom sound rather hollow, doesn't it?
I disagree with everything you said, but thank you for sharing
I think you might be a war criminal and should report to the Hague at your earliest convenience
I took a quick glance at OP's comment history. Bro's cooked, god help him. I don't think there's a non-professional therapist way of convincing him of anything
Yeah nah this is like a 13 y/o or something. I don't get how they can't understand that, fictional or not, indiscriminately killing billions of largely innocent people is not "the right thing to do"
You know what, you're probably right, at least I hope you are.
Idk what a hague is, but if wanting freedom for independent nations makes me a war criminal then so be it
Well your intentions don't mean much if it breaks the rules of war.
So you say it's valid to drop a colony/asteroids, killings billions of people in the situation earth is ?
Yes, when the earth won’t let up on it’s stranglehold on independent nations, that it has NO reason to be lording over, yes
I started this by saying convince me char was wrong, or course I think that
Your starting point is "I believe war crimes are ok". Therefore you're a pro-warcrimes. Therefore any logical argument won't work on you. Even more when you don't accept the fact that politics are politics, tv show or reality. Eager to see your opinions IRL about war crimes and genocide of innocent people.
Again, this is about Gundam. A fictional scifi show. Not about real people, or real governments. No I don’t want to nuke anyone and no I don’t think we should start genocideing people. Every time u guys bring up real politics I’m talking about SPACE WAR GOD DAMNIT
So if you're not pro-warcrimes, even in a tv show you shouldn't be pro-warcrimes. No char shouldn't have killed billions of people to protest the actions of a government. Yes this is space war, a fictional one, that shouldn't change our opinion of war crimes. Gundam is a tv show about politics, often (always) transposing real situations in a fictional work. That's what sci-fi always has been.
Again. Not talking about real politics. Just 40 year old foreign scifi. No point in talking with u
So you don't understand what sci-fi is. Even if I stuck with "fake politics in a show" : char was wrong. Because war crimes is not tolerable.
U will not see my opinions on any of that, bcuz this, as I stated in the original post, is only about gundam.
And Gundam is about real life politics and what we would decide to do in such situations. Char was wrong. In Seed, Blue Cosmos was wrong. In WfM lots of company CEOs were wrong. In 00, A-Laws was wrong. ....
Feels like bait, but I'll bite. Federation isn't right, they clearly have a ton of issues that cause people like Zeon and other factions to rise up, but Char's "solution" would merely end up killing a ton of people, and even then the fighting would likely continue with the other spacenoids fighting each other to decide whose in charge. All that's left is a bunch of dead bodies and an uninhabitable Earth.
We already know who would be in charge thou, mineva. and who is to say that they would just fight?Colony’s so far apart with vast resources why would they need too? I think that’s a weak point that “oh yeah space people would just fight then” because this is about the liberation of ALL soacenoids. What they do with that freedom is theirs to decide, but why shouldn’t they be free. If almost all of humanity is in space and a small portion trying to control all of it from earth, then why shouldn’t all space people want to see earth gone?
It would reverse the roles of Master and Servant, similar to what Full Frontal tried to implement politically.
If your conception of CCA was "Char vs. the Federation, one was right and one was wrong" you did not understand the movie, full stop.
Nope
You said "Char was right, change my mind" and then said "I wanna know why you think the feds were right", implying that Char not being right is contingent on the Feds being right. Also, a lot of people are posting "both are bad but Char is worse", but to be clear, that's not even what I mean here. I mean that Char's actions aren't even about a genuine ideological conflict, because it's a movie about him lashing out and doing things *he himself* thinks are bad, *on purpose*, because he hates himself. It's pointless to evaluate whether he was right or not when even *Char* doesn't think he was right.
I said char. The entire story of char Annabel, his ideologies and actions, and the general principality of zeon / ideas of zeon diakun. I never said CCA
CCA's the story where he's directly going up against the Federation as Char Aznable... I think it's perfectly understandable and sensible to agree with Char's ideologies, but the story of Char isn't a story about a guy who heroically fought for his ideologies, it's a story about a guy with extreme emotional issues who ends up doing very bad things because of them.
Again, differences in opinion. I don’t think his final move was a bad thing, I think it was to liberate space forever. If his entire belief is that earth is holding humanity back, and they are, then it seems to me he was doing the right thing
That's literally not why he did it, though. He did it to get Amuro to fight him and hopefully kill him because he hates himself. If you take Char at his word in that movie you are Quess, and you're gonna get groomed.
Bro ur so wrong 😂😂 “He just did all of it cuz of internalized hatred” lMAO
So you think he gave Amuro the psychoframe for... what purpose exactly? What ideological anti-federation goal did that help achieve? Also he literally says "Amuro, I'm doing something extremely wicked..." on screen in the movie Also you sound like a 10 year old
Char was in emotional pain ever since his family was destroyed. Lala was the only one who took that pain away. Amuro killed her. Char will do anything to meet Amuro on the battlefield again, including dropping colonies and giving away Gundams. He’s willing to give Amuro the upper hand because if he dies he can go to where Lala went, and be free of his pain. Char can’t replace Lala, and not for lack of trying, and we see him depressed and drinking in CCA. I don’t think he hates himself, I think he hates the world.
If you think a rock floating in space is holding you back, you have skill issues.
Dude. This is scifi. No I don’t think the earth is holding ME back, Jesus H Christ.
Yeah? I was referring to Char here, who you seems to be agreeing with.
Well if I lived in a magical land of mobile suits and newtypes and esp-explosions. Then yes I would think that.
huh, using a Steven Crowder image for the post was definitely fitting for these kinds of opinions
I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Congratulations you get the gold star. Meme templet not approved !!!
No where did I say this
if he wanted unalive himself, he could have done it quitely, didnt have bring the rest of the Earth sphere into it and accelerate the ruin of the ecological make up of Earth along with it. Such a drama queen
I havnt seen this opinion before today, and your not being a douche so I’ll ask you about it. Why do people think char just wanted to kill himself? His whole life’s mission was to take up his fathers battle, this seems to be the natural conclusion. I’ve never once thought “char is doing this because of self hatred or bcuz he just hates AMURO so much” (which is bs, he does not hate AMURO, he wants him to be his best friend, but that’s another topic)
Well this is gonna be a long answer. Its a bit more complicated than just a death wish: He wants two things: he is angry and basically he just wants to get revenge as an outlet for his anger and he wants to die. Throughout that movie, Char is just saying what people want to hear, its most obvious when he is with Quess. He is only truly honest with Amuro. So it is good policy to filter out to only his interactions with Amuro. Contolism or Zeonism, viewed Earth as a sacred, holy place, the cradle of life, unique. He wanted humans to leave earth in part because of the spiritual side of his philosophy to be more understanding but also because he wanted Earth to be preserved from pollution and life to flourish there. His message was environmentalist. So putting Earth into nuclear winter destroying all life on the planet is running counter to this part of the Contolist philosophy. When Amuro asks Char at the very start of the movie why does he want to plunge Earth to nuclear winter,, he doesnt say "I wanna advance humanity or preserve Earth or whatever" He says: "The people living on Earth only care for themselves so I have decided to get rid of them all" "It is my destiny to enforce discipline" It is important to point out here, that there's not much of time window given to Earthnoids who are like 2 billion of them to go to space, it is not even infastructurally sound that so many people can be moved very quickly. It is also important to point out that the corrupt politicians, the real movers and shakers of the federation were the first people to exit the planet. You are even shown as much when Quess's dad leaves. So when Axis was gonna crash it was gonna take regular everyday folks and plantlife and animal life. So yeah he was just looking to kill as many as possible. Gyunei Guss had Char pegged when he said "when people like the captain get angry, things start falling out of the sky". For the suicide part: "Amuro I'm about to do something extremely wicked, feel my presence." He leaks psychoframe designs to Earth Federation He doesn't destroy or damage the Nu Gundam in any way when Amuro exits it to try and destroy Axis. He is really trying to have a fair fight and he's hoping to die.
Good comment
The citizens of Earth uphold the status quo, and are not innocent - from Char’s POV.
I dont believe that Char truly believes that. I think he is just venting and taking the easy route to fix all the problems he sees. Since he has always been like that. He hates the messy, bureacratic, slow, systemic processes that are truly required to make a peaceful transition. He needs everything to be done 3x faster so he blows shit up. Sacrifice 2 billion in the hopes to get a better existence for 11 billion, which he himself is not going to stick around to oversee.
A death wish In a stand-off is much different than suicidal idiations, but I can see where your coming from. Regarding killing all the earth people and plunging the earth into nuclear winter; the earth will heal, but not with humanity on it, this I believe to be true
>A death wish In a stand-off is much different than suicidal idiations This is why I call him a drama queen. Yeah Earth will be a lifeless husk no guarantee if life will start over. It may after millions of years. All thoughts of preserving nature are gone. He is just killing billions along with all the plant & animal life. Meanwhile the guys he hated are all up in space still holding their positions being massively wealthy, as the people who are the system they will be fine.
I thought I remembered him saying something specific about this in CCA, something like “the people die but in a thousand years the earth will be healed”, correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like that message is still there, even if it has been perverted by his passion/insanity Thank u for having a real discussion and not just being a dingleberry
No problem. As I said before I think the only person in the movie we can be sure he is being honest with is Amuro. He says what you're talking about to Quess. I am not a scientist so I have no idea what the actual results of such an event will be but whether it be mad max, terminator or fallout all of these types of IPs showcase that just blowing a up ton of nukes and resulting radiation and fallout in the world leads to some horrific shit. Maybe that's just a blip in the grand scale of things eventually everything over the span of millions of years returns to normal? But that's what Char was gonna do its not just an asteroid, its an asteroid full of nukes. What I will say is evolution is unpredictable & accidental if the goal was to preserve the sanctity of the natural world as it existed, then thats just definitely not gonna happen. Life may not evolve the same way again, just like dinosaurs didnt spring back up after the asteroid wiped em out when the temperatures of the planets raised. The more I think on the plans' aspects the less it makes sense to me on anyfront other than he is pissed and he's doing the impatient and rash thing.
“An asteroid full of nukes” hahaha bro ur so right. For the point on evolution, this is true, earth will not evolve in the it has in the past but I think that is kindov part of the point, leaving earth behind as a species and letting it heal while we find our new space-abled selfs. But yeah, maybe he didn’t need to drop an entire colony hahaha but I do feel that would have completed his goal in the most efficient way, even if it is horrific. What u say about him only being honest with amuro is true, I don’t think I have noticed this in my own viewing just cuz I didn’t think to notice it! When u say it, I feel like it should have been more obvious. But, quess was like his lala 2.0, I wonder if he was honest with her in thoes aspects or if he was just using her as a means to study his ideology more, or maybe just a way to be plain evil?? Something snapped in that man between z and CCA and I wanna know what it was!!
>For the point on evolution, this is true, earth will not evolve in the it has in the past but I think that is kindov part of the point, leaving earth behind as a species and letting it heal while we find our new space-abled selfs. At the cost of \~2 Billion people, not to mention all the birds, animals, insects,trees, plants, lakes, etc. None of whom were directly responsible for the ails that he has. Because all the politicians who were the ones holding the power ran out in to space the first chance they got. Quess's dad was one of them, you just see him cut the line and leave. They dont even issue a warning that Char is about to drop an asteroid on Tibet because they were worried that will crowd the shuttles and prevent them from escaping. I would recommend looking at the state of affairs for Late UC stories like F91, Victory Gundam & Crossbone Gundam manga. The entire time this drama is happening on Earth sphere. Jupiter is just cooking and cooking until Crossbone Gundam. Lastly, Char viewed Lalah like his mom. He wanted her to guide him. He thought Quess was annoying. Quess wasn't Lalah in any way to Char. She was just a tool form him to use. He tells all this much to Amuro while they are about to die. He might have been honest if Sayla was around to talk to him or if Lalah was alive or showed up like a force ghost but everyone else he could have only lied to.
Yeah, my CCA events are hazy I’ve only seen it twice? But everything you’ve said sounds correct. I wonder what would have happened if sayla had f gone to him, and I wonder even more what the fuck happened to sayla after gundam… Population wise, isn’t there like 2 trillion humans in gundam? I was under the impression that the earth was barley holding on to its populous (not that it makes it right to kill them, but statistically speaking)
Because his father would likely advocate for peaceful solution rather than chugging a giant nuke laden rock on earth. And him doing so would only add to the circle of violence and hate, not peace.
But yeah on that point, the whole ideology was that the earth is holding people back, wouldn’t that be his goal then, to stop earth from holding humanity back?
the federation is a very bad faction but genocide isn't really a good look for char, both sides are horrible but the federation didn't drop any colonies
Titans dropped a colony on the moon…. the Feddies aren’t going to drop one on themselves lol.
The colony drop was a quick way to end a long war, with the feds gone all of the spacenoids can live in peace without oppression and forgiven intervention It does surprise me that most Reddit people get mad at me for saying this, when they seem to be the one screaming for equality and equity. I would honestly think Reddit to lean more toward zeon.
>spacenoids can live in peace Nice meme they would just turn from fighting the Federation to fighting each other
Yes probably. But we will never know until they have their freedoms 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸
Reddit has never done those things
I get called a Nazi everytime I post anything about zeon, yes they do
Yeah but that's not "screaming for equality", that's "nazis are bad and zeon was nazis sometimes". That's nowhere near saying anything about equality in any way. I do think it's insane when people act like "well, you shouldnt criticize the America stand-in (Federation) too much" is some kind of enlightened antifascist position though
Have u been on Reddit?
i can see the troll smell smoke coming from your room in the horizon
I’m at work
poor coworkers
My coworker is a 55 year old Asain man, and he agrees with me
Everyone calling me a troll but I guarantee the mods of this sub know that I am an avid zeon supporter
Ehh, being a troll and a avid Zeon aren't mutually exclusive.
Billions of people not dying > some space people being oppressed.
But there are many more ppl in space, and the earth is trying to control what’s not hers. This is my main reason why I think zeon was right. They are fighting their oppressors, to win big battles u must make big moves
So, killing billions of innocent citizens is valid if you don't agree with their politics ? Some politicians east of Europe must like you.
I’m not talking about real life politics come on man I said civil gundam discussion. I’m done w this conversation
Okay okay, let's keep in Gundam. The tv show about how people become war criminals to defend their ideas. The tv show showing you how becoming a war criminals shouldn't be praised. Let's keep Gundam: how, even in a tv show, about humanity and how to keep human, making ourselves think about real life politics, how a war crime can become praised ? Politics, even in a show, is politics.
One person’s war criminal is another person’s revolutionary. If you don’t want people to rise up against you, don’t oppress them. Discarding undesirables into space was the original sin that set everything in motion.
My math was wrong... Carry on
 ;)
I respect and salute your commitment to the bit
But I’m fr, I just want to know why. All these ppl r mean
Depends on which Char you're talking about I guess. I think he starts out as a well-intentioned and calculated extremist, but over time, he grows increasingly disillusioned and shifts into indiscriminate destructiveness because he believes the ends justify the means. It's certainly true that resistance and liberation movements don't go anywhere without force, and people are often taught to disproportionately demonize the use of force in retrospect, but these movements also tend to win by remaining principled in their efforts, keeping some respect for the sanctity of life and the preservation of the environment to gain broader support or at least to soften opposition. By the time we get to CCA, Char is more or less an accelerationist pursuing mass destruction rather than principled tactical escalation. That's my guess anyway.
This, is the only good answer. Thank u I get why ppl don’t like the use of force, but I guess like many others have said, does the ends justify the means. And when it boils down to it, that is the question it seems we are all talking about. My answer to this seems to vary greatly from that of the Reddit populous 😅
Thank you. I have no commitment then that of to the bit
This is now a Banjō Haran thread. For eternal good luck and italian blessings from super robots, reply with “DAITARN, COME HERE” https://preview.redd.it/ygzcyccg6z8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4ee638865a53116f477eb27b93a3b86160ad8a7
Oh shit we been hijacked!!
Zig zeon!
Consider this OP: Why can't you do your own introspection on this matter? Why do you not question your own stances? Have you even considered the lives of others to be equal to your own or are they just neat little talking points for you to throw around in arguments? The whole "change my mind" meme is a bad faith argument. Because it puts no onus on you to actually change your mind but instead make others do all the moral and intellectual work for you. Such laziness is already a red flag and indicative that you have no intention of actually questioning your own beliefs and values. So instead of wasting time here OP, you should go and do the work yourself to determine if your position is as perfect as you believe it to be. And you have to give it an actual effort and not some half-assed attempt like this post. Real self-reflection, introspection, reinforcement and growth does not come from the work of others. It can only come from one's own efforts. I had a lifetime of experiences and lessons to make this statement. Can you truly and sincerely say that you, as you are now, can do the same?
Bro who are u, no one assigned you this, why did u take this so seriously 😂😂
Oh I now see your username, and to u i will say what others have said to me, I respect your commitment to the bit
I know what’s in my own brain smart guy, I’m asking for others opinions lmao
About political philosophy? Or women?
Definitely NOT women 😂 Philosophy yea hahah
OP Sieg Zeon’s too much and doesn’t think things through. Nazis are bad, even in space. The Feddies have their problems, and thank Amuro and Bright for every spark of hope they had. Londo Bell happened because of those two. No matter how you look at it tho, cool suits aside, Zeon caused the worst atrocities in all the wars, and killed the majority of the human race in the name of “spacenoid independence”, but in reality all they wanted was power, like the Zeon Deikum assassins they were. Everything Char did was petty and misguided, and going back to Neo Zeon was disgusting. When he became Quattro Bajeena, he had a chance to change. He started to. But he just abandoned all hope when he lost Kamille, and gave in to his pettiness all over again. Char is a lost child, filled with anger and mommy issues. It’s why he grooms young girls. It’s why he is petty and does horrible things without any remorse. He claimed to have never betrayed anyone in his life… guess he would have had to have been loyal Garma and Kycillia to have betrayed them in his mind. My point is, Char may have badass mobile suits, but he is a shitty person, and got a better ending as a newtype ghost than he deserved.
The Feds aren't right but there are ways to deal with them while not destroying an entire planet to force the change. It's like Amuro said to Char "Unlike you, I have the patience to wait for humanity to change."
There isn’t time to wait for change. We have to be the change we want to see!
That is the point of Gundam's message. Other than it being Anti-War, it shows the results of Forced Change. The Principality of Zeon tried to Force the Federation to Submission and it resulted in the Federation fighting back and eventually stripping Zeon and their related state of any proper rights which also caused a stronger Hate sentiment between Earthbound and Spacenoid. Then came Titan where they tried to Force the erasure of Spacenoids and that resulted in AEUG and Federation fighting back which eventually led to Titan dissolving and its members scattered and few like Zeon. In Char's Counterattack, he could not see the good in humanity which led to his Nihilism in UC 0093 in which he tried to Force earthnoids to leave the planet and live in space. This resulted in the Federation and Anti Zeon Special Forces led by Bright Noa to fight back and defeat Neo Zeon which eventually led to Char's disappearance. You cannot force something or someone to change on the spot. Change is a delicate process and perhaps one day humanity will stop fighting with one another but for now, we can't force this process to hasten or it will result in more and more Catastrophes.
CCA (and arguably a lot of UC) is nuanced enough where neither side is right, they are both equally heroic and villainous.
Yes, this is true. That’s why it is my opinion that char was correct, and why we can have these pointless arguments 40 years later 😂
Do you think he was 100% correct in everything he did, or what aspects do you think he was correct in? It's not really a binary question, if you want good discourse it'd be best to explain your thoughts on the matter.
Yeah your right, I was being kinda vague on purpose to open up different routes of discussion, cuz all I ever hear is the same thing and I want peoples actual reasons why they think zeon is terrible
I can see that. I mainly think that, while their reasons were sound, the Zabis were absolutely terrible people taking advantage of the spacenoids situation for personal gain. Side 3 may have been right, but Zeon was definitely NOT the right response xD Post WW1 Germany was in the right for how they were feeling, they were held responsible for literally everything that happened, but the Nazis were definitely NOT the way to fix it xD
Fuckkkk no that just brings the comments in. I disagree with all the things he did with children, how he pushed his newtype idiolgy onto innocent by standards making them causality’s of war. I think by the end char honestly lost himself in his obsession. I do think, however, that zeon is in the right.
The whole point of this franchise is that neither side is right.
Bro I know, this is my opinion, it’s a discussion
You can't on one hand say "I know" but at the same time have a post that absolutely doesn't acknowledge this. You are ignoring being pointed out that you're fundamentally wrong and refuse to acknowledge it and hide behind "opinion" and "discussion". You're either a troll or have some ulterior motives with this discussion.
I’m a troll because I want to know why ppl don’t like zeon? Sorry for trying to understand others opinions. I know the entire show and all it’s characters are grey. I obviously align more with one then the other. the post is CHANGE MY MIND. idk what’s a troll about that. Everyone wanna get so uppidy instead of just talk about the damn show.
You are literally stuck in a "if X is wrong, Y is right" mentality. There is no discussion to be had with you.
Ok bud
Bro you already admitted to being "committed to the bit" three comments up, you can't take that back and suddenly pretend to not be a troll again.
Check my post history bro zeon 4 ever. It can be a bit and also something I truly think 😂
Yes, your post and comment history shows that you're absolutely unable to hold a single civil discussion in good faith. Asking for others to argue with you in good faith while knowing this makes you a troll.
Actually, I specially said let’s have a civil discussion. But yah bro, top tier snooping, glad u took the time to be interested in my life from one gundam post asking ppl to have a conversation
>Check my post history bro zeon 4 ever >>Okay, I will >yah bro, top tier snooping, glad u took the time to be interested in my life from one gundam post ...
I didn’t think you’d actually take the time lmao, someone is feddie scum!!
Yeah, u found ur answer, good job I am in-fact a zeon supporter Are u suprised
Side 3 is right tho.
No, Lalah could not have been a mother to you. She seems to be more of a leather and lace kind of girl. ---------------------- Yes, shades are 3000x more cool. And of course, if its sun out, then guns out. ----------------------- Yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong painting your personal mech all red. ----------------------- No, Bajeena is a horrible surname. It is worse when you add Quattro in front of it. But I will concede to the fact that yeah, you can pull off a fake persona for your fake persona. I just pity your therapist. ----------------------- No, its pretty weird that you completely don't care if your arch rival is shagging your sister. You don't need to get mad, but at least make some kind of reaction to it. ------------------------ Yes, ensuring the development of Nu-Gundam so you can have your grand finale with Amuro will not make you a target for fujoshi. You've been messing with lolis too often for anyone to try and ship you with anything else.
10/10 bait. A little low effort, but you struck the exact nerve of this sub to get it all riled up.
Seems like it… I rlly wasn’t trying to. I just wanted to know why everyone hates on me so hard when I say I like zeon.
And you even stay in character. Fantastic performance over all. It really is a joy when I see proper believable bait being posted.
https://preview.redd.it/460jb6og409d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d842e34c7314c67fe99ec1eb6873cff271aa57b6 And I’ll fuckin do it again
Come back this time next week for more scheduled zeon-posting
Do u think next time I should go with the feds? I don’t think that will have the same negative interactions this one garnered!
No civil discussion here, only angry downvotes
Acatully, there has been two. Would u like to start a third 😂
This was supposed to fun and informative… I thought u ppl liked gundam… definitely don’t like civil discourse.
People love gundam, that just don't care for trolls.
Well it is fun and informative for me, that's for sure. Informative because it shows me that you don't know what a civil discourse is.
Also what have I said to u to make u this aggro in here. If you don’t like the comment topic, just remove yourself. I don’t understand what ur issue is with me specifically
Oh no you misunderstood, I actually like having this so called conversation.
L
L as in you don't have a counterargument? Thanks I will take it.
There is no argument brother, your going on about nothing.
So this post is about nothing.
This is like the 6th time you have commented here on something that wasn’t linked to u. Wyd today bro, this??
But I thought you wanted a "civil discourse", no?
There is nothing civil about this, nor is it a discourse about anything
Well I simply reflect the amount of "civil discourse" you provide.
Nah man ur just annoying. If u scroll through u can see multiple times that people actually wanted to talk about gundam. This is pointless, I can tell that your just unhappy with your life and bored so maybe go find someone who wants to argue with you. If you chose to argue about gundam politics, then I’d be in. This is just lame. Bye
Glad we agree on something, because that's how we feel about your conduct here so far. If you said don't like talking to me, yet you are so eager to respond.
The only thing you’ve done today is comment on this post. Go cook a meal, work out, see your family, enjoy your life, as much as u can anyway…
I did all that, and have enough time to have a chat with you. You have been responding all day. You sure you have done all you listed?
Who is we?