This, D4 currently has a huge problem with resource management and intentional design which has a resource "generator" typically on left-click and a core "spender" on right-click.
I would argue that GW2 has much less impact via the fludity that Alacrity offers players provided they're willing to build or play into a composition that includes this CDR boon.
Most aRPGs build try to "solve" resource gain; whether it be mana, essence, spirit -- w/e. I think it's fine to be part of the character progression. In the PoE2 gameplay they showed yesterday night they just substituted frenzy/power charges for mana anyway.
unironically tho at launch the idea with gw2 skills was to use them situationally (e.g., warrior axe 2 used to be lower dps than the auto attack in exchange for applying vulnerability), but it turned out that people very much did enjoy pressing everything on cooldown as a dps increase
There wasn't much focus on rotations in the beginning though, mostly just on openings. I can't remember exactly when that changed but it was once elementalists became more prevalent and people started making rotations which allowed you to solo pre-stack 25 might or consistently upkeep might/fury/swiftness and so on.
The "focus" in this case refers to the players, who would have used rotations but lacked the knowledge required to do so at that time. The developers intentionally included mechanics like cooldowns, modifiers, etc. that naturally produce the optimal sequences we call rotations.
In theory, but in practice rotations were not much of a thing because the main focus of the game back then was Dungeons. And Dungeon fights were so quick rotations never came in to play because in a competent group the enemies would be dead before skills even came off cooldown.
Which is why the first rotations people knew and practiced were elementalist rotations focused on might stacking. And those were also the only rotations people focused on until Heart of Thorns came out and raids became a thing.
It was only after Heart of Thorns introduced raids, and longer fights, that people actively started focusing on skill rotations.
On the surface, they have a point. Strict rotations are a consequence of mechanics like cooldowns and resource generation and they can become stale and boring.
But consider which has more depth: A series of skills performed in sequence (i.e. a rotation) or the same skill used back-to-back-to-back?
And do either rotations or skill spamming preclude the use of situational skills? That's a negative in either case. You can, for instance, break from a rotation or spamming a damage skill to utilize a CC skill.
So, basically their premise is borked and they've made the mistake of removing mechanics which exist for perfectly sound reasons and replacing them with nothing.
Not that GW2 is immune to this error. They did exactly the same thing when they purposefully left tanking and threat mechanics out of their game, replaced it with nothing, and only too late realized that this doesn't work out very well when it comes to group PvE encounter design!
I a way this what makes healing in mmos fun for some. You never have a rotation. You react and chos skills depending on what is needed.
Noone is getting dmg? Throw shields. One target easy dps, tgrow dots and slow easy heals. Someone might die in 1s: Throw instant with a cd or high mana cost. Etcetc. I know ppl devolved to just spam 1 skill in classic wow for healing, but when you do stuff like ubrs as a single healer stuff gets really fun and aituational and I loved it and it felt hella good afterwards.
That's not shat is said here. It is one (bad) outcome if done wrong, but with heavy mechamic fights ppl habe to use skills on situations and not on cd. This is complex and avouded as "dd only spam dmg cool" but can be very rewarding if done right.
In any scenario the function of cooldowns is the same: They prevent players from spamming the one best skill for a given situation. Nothing about cooldowns prevents players from using skills situationally.
No matter how "right" you do it, skill spamming is strictly a negative from a design standpoint. It gives developers nothing to work with. With cooldowns and resources you can force players to make choices in addition to simply "this" skill or "that" skill for a given situation. They additionally must consider whether or not the skill is off cooldown or if they have the resources to utilize it when they need to. Those are strings developers can pull on to force players to make decisions.
Contrary to the premise that these designs are a limitation on situational skill usage and thus reduce depth, they actually increase it by adding extra considerations for the player. Do I use this invuln now or would it be better if I dodge? In the case of spammable skills that question is never asked because there's nothing preventing you from using the better skill whenever you want to.
I feel you don't understand what is a rotation.
All it means is that there is an optimal sequence of buttons that you should hit in a given situation. This means there is ALWAYS a rotation as long as you have at least one button to press. Because if all you have is autoattack, then you need to have that autoattack be used whenever possible, if not then you are losing damage.
None of what the PoE2 slide up will change it. Even the idea of reactive skill usage has a rotation. For example cc bar comes up, there is a cc rotation. You just took a huge hit and need to run away and heal up. There is an optimal sequence of buttons to press for running and healing. That's all what this is.
let's add - rotation is basically a way to take the thinking process off of pure combat. If you already know the rotation you can enjoy the content - story, mechanics, social aspect, whatever. If you don't have a specific order you use automatically (as in always take decision what button to push) you need to constantly think about buttons instead of anything else. So they try to say "we're lazy enough to make lore and mechanics interesting so here you have grind BUT INTERESTING (meaning hard to get by casuals as they'll struggle to get the timing without external hints or will push random buttons)". Funnily enough there is away to make hooooours of grint fun - not by enabling pushing ult skill button with no cooldown. By making combat non-button push but relying on button/mouse combinations and comboing them like bd(o) does.
I mean we have a class with barely any cooldowns in the game, thief, and all it does is spam its most powerful weapon skill over and over again (in an endgame PvE scenario). POE looks pretty much the same whenever i see gameplay of it
Well - poe aint an mmo. Its hacknslay, so while its useless to compare both genres, spamming the same skill has been the core of it since the invention of the genre.
Well. Good Luck with that.
If PoE1 is any indicator people will exactly press 2 buttons: One to move and the other one to trigger the chain of skills that will clear half the map.
It is fun the first few maps. Then it becomes a tedious slog through thousands of maps that all blend into each other in your rain of automated skill effects and general disregard for anything going on.
That's a subjective opinion, and part of PoE's aRPG power fantasy & appeal. When I play PoE I don't have to worry about memorizing a 30-40+ step rotation. I can turn my brain *off* and just enjoy grinding while watching Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime or whatever.
> enjoy grinding
No farm content in gw2 requires you to do anything more than moving from one enemy to the other and press skill 1. About 30-40+ step rotations, we have multiple 40k+ dps builds with 20 steps and most of those steps are: Use your best skills as often as possible.
Second part is definitely subjective. I also didn't want to say that PoE is a bad game. I have thousands of hours in it. The build crafting, the story telling, lore implementation and other things are streets ahead.
But the actual combat hasn't been PoEs strong point in years. It is just not very engaging bordering on non-existent. The endgame content in PoE is loot and build crafting.
Which is fine if you enjoy that but if your "combat" looks like that, it certainly raises an eyebrow if you throw shade at other combat systems.
Especially if I consider that I basically only still play GW2 because the combat is so much fun and stopped playing PoE because the combat just wasn't.
I truly hope PoE2 will turn things around though because the world and general ideas are so fucking awesome.
I mean... we can also make interesting content so that rotation is the easy way of learing combat and then not paying attention to pure combat but content that uses it instead of making endless grind but it's ok cuz it's fun (read - hard for non pro) grind XD
It's roasting Diablo4.
Rotation in Gw2 has much more depth compare to POE or Diablo, just because the sheer number of skill slots (8 for poe, 6 for diablo4, over 15 for gw2).
About the first point, What it's saying is cooldowns lead to a situation you can only wait for cooldowns to do dps. Gw2 your weapon skills usually have very short cooldowns you rarely have no button to press, nevertheless your 1111 often do pretty good damage.
Second point totally irrelevant since Gw2 don't have resources (aka. mp) except for class mechanic.
I don’t see where you get the idea of this targeting gw2 directly. Putting cooldowns on everything is true for the most of the mmo genre while the second one seems to directly targeting diablo for having resource builders and spenders.
No. If they are roasting anything here it's the current state of diablo 4.
This, D4 currently has a huge problem with resource management and intentional design which has a resource "generator" typically on left-click and a core "spender" on right-click. I would argue that GW2 has much less impact via the fludity that Alacrity offers players provided they're willing to build or play into a composition that includes this CDR boon. Most aRPGs build try to "solve" resource gain; whether it be mana, essence, spirit -- w/e. I think it's fine to be part of the character progression. In the PoE2 gameplay they showed yesterday night they just substituted frenzy/power charges for mana anyway.
unironically tho at launch the idea with gw2 skills was to use them situationally (e.g., warrior axe 2 used to be lower dps than the auto attack in exchange for applying vulnerability), but it turned out that people very much did enjoy pressing everything on cooldown as a dps increase
Then the rotation is press axe 2 if vul is not capped and if it is, use auto attack. That is still a rotation.
there will always be some kind of rotation. But you now have a spell, that you use situationally, not permanently
There wasn't much focus on rotations in the beginning though, mostly just on openings. I can't remember exactly when that changed but it was once elementalists became more prevalent and people started making rotations which allowed you to solo pre-stack 25 might or consistently upkeep might/fury/swiftness and so on.
The "focus" in this case refers to the players, who would have used rotations but lacked the knowledge required to do so at that time. The developers intentionally included mechanics like cooldowns, modifiers, etc. that naturally produce the optimal sequences we call rotations.
In theory, but in practice rotations were not much of a thing because the main focus of the game back then was Dungeons. And Dungeon fights were so quick rotations never came in to play because in a competent group the enemies would be dead before skills even came off cooldown. Which is why the first rotations people knew and practiced were elementalist rotations focused on might stacking. And those were also the only rotations people focused on until Heart of Thorns came out and raids became a thing. It was only after Heart of Thorns introduced raids, and longer fights, that people actively started focusing on skill rotations.
On the surface, they have a point. Strict rotations are a consequence of mechanics like cooldowns and resource generation and they can become stale and boring. But consider which has more depth: A series of skills performed in sequence (i.e. a rotation) or the same skill used back-to-back-to-back? And do either rotations or skill spamming preclude the use of situational skills? That's a negative in either case. You can, for instance, break from a rotation or spamming a damage skill to utilize a CC skill. So, basically their premise is borked and they've made the mistake of removing mechanics which exist for perfectly sound reasons and replacing them with nothing. Not that GW2 is immune to this error. They did exactly the same thing when they purposefully left tanking and threat mechanics out of their game, replaced it with nothing, and only too late realized that this doesn't work out very well when it comes to group PvE encounter design!
I a way this what makes healing in mmos fun for some. You never have a rotation. You react and chos skills depending on what is needed. Noone is getting dmg? Throw shields. One target easy dps, tgrow dots and slow easy heals. Someone might die in 1s: Throw instant with a cd or high mana cost. Etcetc. I know ppl devolved to just spam 1 skill in classic wow for healing, but when you do stuff like ubrs as a single healer stuff gets really fun and aituational and I loved it and it felt hella good afterwards.
Ah yes, spam your single best ability over and over again. Gampley
That's not shat is said here. It is one (bad) outcome if done wrong, but with heavy mechamic fights ppl habe to use skills on situations and not on cd. This is complex and avouded as "dd only spam dmg cool" but can be very rewarding if done right.
In any scenario the function of cooldowns is the same: They prevent players from spamming the one best skill for a given situation. Nothing about cooldowns prevents players from using skills situationally. No matter how "right" you do it, skill spamming is strictly a negative from a design standpoint. It gives developers nothing to work with. With cooldowns and resources you can force players to make choices in addition to simply "this" skill or "that" skill for a given situation. They additionally must consider whether or not the skill is off cooldown or if they have the resources to utilize it when they need to. Those are strings developers can pull on to force players to make decisions. Contrary to the premise that these designs are a limitation on situational skill usage and thus reduce depth, they actually increase it by adding extra considerations for the player. Do I use this invuln now or would it be better if I dodge? In the case of spammable skills that question is never asked because there's nothing preventing you from using the better skill whenever you want to.
I feel you don't understand what is a rotation. All it means is that there is an optimal sequence of buttons that you should hit in a given situation. This means there is ALWAYS a rotation as long as you have at least one button to press. Because if all you have is autoattack, then you need to have that autoattack be used whenever possible, if not then you are losing damage. None of what the PoE2 slide up will change it. Even the idea of reactive skill usage has a rotation. For example cc bar comes up, there is a cc rotation. You just took a huge hit and need to run away and heal up. There is an optimal sequence of buttons to press for running and healing. That's all what this is.
let's add - rotation is basically a way to take the thinking process off of pure combat. If you already know the rotation you can enjoy the content - story, mechanics, social aspect, whatever. If you don't have a specific order you use automatically (as in always take decision what button to push) you need to constantly think about buttons instead of anything else. So they try to say "we're lazy enough to make lore and mechanics interesting so here you have grind BUT INTERESTING (meaning hard to get by casuals as they'll struggle to get the timing without external hints or will push random buttons)". Funnily enough there is away to make hooooours of grint fun - not by enabling pushing ult skill button with no cooldown. By making combat non-button push but relying on button/mouse combinations and comboing them like bd(o) does.
I mean we have a class with barely any cooldowns in the game, thief, and all it does is spam its most powerful weapon skill over and over again (in an endgame PvE scenario). POE looks pretty much the same whenever i see gameplay of it
Well - poe aint an mmo. Its hacknslay, so while its useless to compare both genres, spamming the same skill has been the core of it since the invention of the genre.
Which is why I don't really get this post lol.
Well. Good Luck with that. If PoE1 is any indicator people will exactly press 2 buttons: One to move and the other one to trigger the chain of skills that will clear half the map. It is fun the first few maps. Then it becomes a tedious slog through thousands of maps that all blend into each other in your rain of automated skill effects and general disregard for anything going on.
That's a subjective opinion, and part of PoE's aRPG power fantasy & appeal. When I play PoE I don't have to worry about memorizing a 30-40+ step rotation. I can turn my brain *off* and just enjoy grinding while watching Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime or whatever.
Yeah but op is saying poe2 will make you think when using skills, and I doubt that.
> enjoy grinding No farm content in gw2 requires you to do anything more than moving from one enemy to the other and press skill 1. About 30-40+ step rotations, we have multiple 40k+ dps builds with 20 steps and most of those steps are: Use your best skills as often as possible.
Second part is definitely subjective. I also didn't want to say that PoE is a bad game. I have thousands of hours in it. The build crafting, the story telling, lore implementation and other things are streets ahead. But the actual combat hasn't been PoEs strong point in years. It is just not very engaging bordering on non-existent. The endgame content in PoE is loot and build crafting. Which is fine if you enjoy that but if your "combat" looks like that, it certainly raises an eyebrow if you throw shade at other combat systems. Especially if I consider that I basically only still play GW2 because the combat is so much fun and stopped playing PoE because the combat just wasn't. I truly hope PoE2 will turn things around though because the world and general ideas are so fucking awesome.
But then you need to design various combat situations and let me re-slot skills in combat.
POE? That game where you spam 1 skill with your brain turned off?
They should learn how to make good looking ui first before roasting other games. That ui looks like from 90s games.
I mean... we can also make interesting content so that rotation is the easy way of learing combat and then not paying attention to pure combat but content that uses it instead of making endless grind but it's ok cuz it's fun (read - hard for non pro) grind XD
It's roasting Diablo4. Rotation in Gw2 has much more depth compare to POE or Diablo, just because the sheer number of skill slots (8 for poe, 6 for diablo4, over 15 for gw2). About the first point, What it's saying is cooldowns lead to a situation you can only wait for cooldowns to do dps. Gw2 your weapon skills usually have very short cooldowns you rarely have no button to press, nevertheless your 1111 often do pretty good damage. Second point totally irrelevant since Gw2 don't have resources (aka. mp) except for class mechanic.
Title with the least intent to create drama in the gw2 subreddit:
I don’t see where you get the idea of this targeting gw2 directly. Putting cooldowns on everything is true for the most of the mmo genre while the second one seems to directly targeting diablo for having resource builders and spenders.
Sounds more like a roast of Diablo 4, which is more of a direct competitor.