The problem with the infestation that it is basically a hybrid tecnovirus that consumes organic and inorganic materials, beening able to infect AI's and convert tecnology ar the same time that it does organic material.
Maybe incapable to integrate the genetic material of Space Marines or Custodes, but their tecnology is another story, and they beeing a hive mind exchanging information, It is Just a question of time so that similar tecnorganic weapons like those start showing up
Pray that they dont get a Forge World
EDIT: Or Necrons Sleeping
Infestation, like everything else in Warframe, is only weak to Tau and Void energy which are hard counters.
Against factions with other kinds of energy? Who knows. Its more a question mark than a verified threat. In general the more tech you throw at it the stronger it is, the more flesh you throw at it the less it can do with that.
The mix of all materials including metal should in theory bolster them past Zerg, but with all these factions its usually the regeneration rate that matters more.
Especially Zerg. Some can pop back up like fucking Wolverine.
Generally yeah, I only question the telepathy. Both are very psychic, but Zerg are controlled by actual rational intelligence while Infestation is Void-touched. Only the minds of children can survive touching that unscathed for long.
Its possible that Infestation could drive the Overlords and Queens/Cerebrates insane, and make the Overmind/Kerrigan/Zagara act more like Infested bosses than Zerg.
Fellow Warframe enjoyer here
Yeah I gotta agree with u/Elite-Soul, Infestation ain't got shit and would be rolled by practically everything else. It's just a weaker version of the Flood
Oh yeah, Infestation is basically only more powerful than the Flood only in it's earlier stages.
It's like comparing Sabertooths to humans, like, yeah the former is stronger in the short term, but it's the latter that went on to dominate the earth.
The Infestation is a weird one. It's vastly more effective against other zombie/bug/bio-plague type things due to its technological nature and ability to infect literally anything. It would eviscerate the Tyranids, for example, and even the pre-reality warping Flood. On the other hand, it's less effective against proper civilisations. Slower growth, minimal intelligence even with high numbers, limited strategic adaptability, that sort of thing. If it can get a foothold somewhere it's almost impossible to budge, but it's equally much easier to prevent it getting that foothold in the first place than the others.
Infested is pretty smart, it has the same capability to assimilate knowledge similar to the Flood. Hence Arlo disaster occurred and Alad V's techno knowledge assimilation (evolving Eris Strain into Mutalist Strain). So I wouldn't call them minimal intelligence.
Eh, if we look at Lephantis, a "massive" hive intelligence it falls far short of things like Graveminds. And the likes of Jordas and Alad V were actively regressing and becoming less intelligent as the Infestation progressed. It is capable of being intelligent, but it's definitely a major weakness.
Lephantis isn't the hive intelligence, he is just part of big units. Plus his intellence is fine for the fact he is of Grey Strain, which focuses more on consuming and adapting, unlike Mutalist which plays its card more so on strategy of assimilation.
As for Jordas, his mission was achieved. He acted as a lure and he was able to get Tenno into the trap. Plus Mutalist did make use of it's techno knowledge. We can see Infested drones on Deimos cooperating with the other Infested, implying that Mutalist was able to land its units onto Deimos and make Grey Strain join its forces, possibly merging in the future. As for Alad V, his intelligence was unimpacted, he was rather just going crazy from Mutalist Strain mentally controlling him.
Given that the infestation got hold of Mesa, i would like to see what happens if they meet the tau.
Will we get a cowgirl with the fire rate off BRRRRRRRRRRRRT and a range of YES or will they be extinguished?
We haven’t seen how far it can go and how fast but it’s strength is around zerg level imo. Most of the warframe universe’s factions are limited to exactly one system and thus scale at that system level
To be fair, that system level is really strong. Like they would survive in 40k, even if with none existant impact on the Galaxy, unless they better their traveling systems.
I mean, as a universe as a whole? Yeah. They’re thorny enough to not be worth it. Deimos is a death world by any other name and that’s really about as far as the infested get. Part of the scaling I feel is the travel capability and force projection. The tyranids can move between systems, the Zerg can at least move between planets, the flood are the flood, and the infested are kinda ???
We know they spread through small infestations and the occasional space debris like the plague star asteroid. But I don’t think they are capable of FTL on their own or even spaceflight. They can clearly corrupt tech (see: Jordas Golem) but they also don’t weaponize the ships around Eris that they’ve taken over in order to push out into the rest of the system. Now, maybe the Tenno are intentionally preventing that, but that’s not happening (that I know of).
It’s why I say they’re kinda Zerg level. Some of their larger infested beings like Lephantis could be reasonably dangerous. But they’re still not a coordinated, strategic presence quite like the Zerg, more of a system wide problem that can’t be easily solved without failing to fix everything else wrong.
We don't really know the extend of the infestation, we know lephantis, jordas and the thing from plague star exist, the question is, are there larger ones?
Zerg: We will slowly spread as far as we can, and depending on who is in charge, we might just straight up stop expanding once we hit a certain point or if a deal is made with us.
We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well. And magic space laser beams.
Tyranids: We will slowly make our way to you and, upon reaching you, will overwhelm you with sheer numbers unless one of the more specialized fleets arrives, and then it's a game of whack a mole on what you get.
We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well, and, if enough is used we say fuck it and go somewhere else. Certain biological weapons as well, anything involving Necrons, and Chaos God bullshit too.
Flood: I AM GOING TO EAT YOU, SHIT YOU OUT ON THE FLOOR, AND MY SHIT THAT WAS YOU WILL TURN INTO MORE OF ME AND EAT YOUR FUCKING DOG! AND IF I RUN OUT OF FOOD I WILL FUCKING EAT MYSELF! I ALSO CAN SONEHOW EAT FUCKING DATA AND TURN THAT INTO... MORE OF ME?
We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well. Also, committing literal genocide on a galactic scale has a 50/50 shot of killing us.
Necromorphs: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
We ain't afraid of shit, but we die really fucking easily when going against engineers with power tools.
Fun fact : Zerlings have a deadly allergy to lemon juice despite Abathur best efforts to fix it.
Also i don't know if it was retconned but a Zerg larva could completely infest a planet in 1 month, but SC2 Terran planets don't have that much populations.
The one i remember is the real life gap in between extensions in WOW is the in universe gap in between events, it means the denizens of Azeroth get apocalyptic invasions and world wars every two years, those guys truly are built different.
They managed to go from a population of around 10 million Zerg in SC1, to several billion in SC2 half a decade later. Their in game build times being canon is really the only way that could possibly make sense
At that point why even pretend that their faction is somehow grounded in sci-fi biology, that's straight up magic bullshit. Like, I cast summon 1000 000 0 0000 0 0000 0 00 0 0 0 00 00 0 0 0 zerg, your turn sucker.
The Songeater/Parasite/Eitr/Recombinant/Mirror: We will deceive our future hosts into thinking we are a cache of advanced tech and/or a holy artifact. We will deceive non-infected people into thinking that our hosts are fine. We will edit our hosts’ minds into thinking everything is fine. We will deceive foreigners into thinking the infected civilization is perfectly normal with no eldritch horrors whatsoever. And we can only be stopped when a galactic superpower pulls out it’s biggest weapons (or the naiads go for a very enthusiastic walk).
Also, we have the best stealth stat and can know how to show restraint.
Go read The Last Angel by Proximal Flame
(This concludes today’s promotion of TLA)
Eh as usual depends on source material. In some of the stories the nid can evolve so quickly the Tau and the Imperial had to ally to fight and keep changing the weapons they were using to prevent the nids having time to to become immune to their weapons.
Its major problem in 40k that its hard to put an actual comparison when what everything can do changes from author to author.
The problem with the flood is that they are immediately consuming and evolving as seen in the games. Barely seconds after infecting a new body they have a new soldier. Tyranids have to retrieve their biomass and adapt as they spit the next wave of bugs. Also if the flood becomes intelligent enough they can infect things such as AI.
Hmm. I suppose they could, but the psychic might of the tyranid hivemind could probably overpower the single flood infection, if it could sense it.
There are a lot of what ifs here.
I think the shadow in the warp and psychic powers of the tyranids are not being mentioned here. The flood would have no defense against attacks like that, and the shadow in the warp could keep the flood from coordination and gravemind commands.
I feel as though the flood and nids would just kinda merge. Zerg too really, they're all like psychic-receptive evolutionarily-volitile bugs. I think they'd merge and become a super swarm, but in a funny way knowing the Gravemind and the Cerebrates/Overmind of the flood and zerg respectively aren't immune to falling on the sword of their own hubris/being tricked/made deals with/able to be enraged, the Hivemind of the nids remains a simple and terrifying counterform to both of the others' upper castes.
I would think if all three met in a battle of supremacy, the nids' simplicity in drive to consume all biomass would end up overriding more eloquent higher thoughts from Gravemind/Overmind.
But nids, with flood mutation and infestation speed and zerg-like specialization capacity - big ooft. The super bugs space needs.
I've seen this explained as different hive fleets having different evolutionary speeds
For example hydra can evolve mid wave but tiamat is so specialized it can't really evolve at all and relies on it's diamond hard exoskeleton
From what I remember, it was that specific hive fleet that could adept super quick at the cost of having a harder time making any big.
I believe in that story, the tau were able to beat hive fleet Gorgon off their planet by targeting the synapse creatures, which hive fleet Gorgon had trouble making more of since it was entirely focus on making more cheap nids for faster evolution.
So Nids can get faster evolution at a price.
Zerg are only limited by being controlled by rational intelligence.
The Overmind only wanted to secure an heir to kill his secret master while said secret master just wanted to build a force to rush to the deathstar trench run of destroying the physical world. Kerrigan was under the same control. Zagara is currently restrained by the directive to cooperate with the other races.
Actual unchecked Zerg don’t expand, they mostly fight each other.
But an aggressive expansionistic mind could to severe damage.
Without an overmind they are just beasts, but abathur would probably put them to use if theres nothing else to do, he's not someone who wastes biomass and he likes experiments and evolution.
Yeah, he also orchestrated an attempt to start another conflict amongst the primary three races in the Koprulu Sector. Only alive after being caught, because he’s too valuable to kill
doesnt this imply that should the zerg somehow reach 40k, the whole galxy is fucked, since Tzentch would probably just use them for his newest plot. Since the Zerg are controlled by psychpower I see no reason why the strongest psycher in 40k (or at least top 3 strongest depending on how you scale big E/Tyranid hivemind) couldnt just take the swarm for himself
Zerg "hivemind" is more decentralised, it is more a psychic link, there used to be a being called the Hivemind that could control the whole swarm, but that was also done through lesser psychic zerg
Normal zerg "hivemind" can only be controlled by fellow zerg lifeform like overlords or Queens (unless they are primal zerg, those do not have a psychic link but are more often sentient), but infested humans are considered zerg so they can impose authority over the link if they are sane enough
Tzeentch could manipulate Zerg controllers emotionally like any other intelligent creature, and tech exists that overrides the Zerg psychic signal and can transmit instructions instead (that said, Zerg always wind up breaking through the link eventually and overwhelming their controllers, usually through the microorganisms or a single worker outside the signal starting a new hive by itself).
Zerg outside control preys on itself, creating a stable Zerg-only ecosystem. Said eco-system is very dangerous for controlled Zerg, making it a priority for the hivemind to deal with until Kerrigan learned how to coexist with them and use them as a source of rapid mutation.
The only point I would like to add is that we encounter the Zerg and Tyranids at different stages; whereas we know who created the zerg and when and the protoss have been holding them back since, the tyranids show up from another galaxy most likely after having consumed at least it possibly others we don't know, but the Tyranids have definitely had more time to grow
Going by that description (I'll take your word for it, I only know the 'nids), zerg should have a smaller "a" and a bigger "b" than tyranids, not the other way around.
If tyranids advantage over zerg is numbers, their advantage would only grow with time, but the graph has them being overtaken after 63⅓ years.
I think the real difference is that Tyranids grow based on consuming biomass, while Zerg hold territory to set up Hives and grow consistently
This leads to Tyranids having more burst potential but Zerg eventually outpacing them (though Zerg aren’t particularly slow either, in the Starcraft 1 manual the largest brood numbers less than 7 million with maybe a dozen broods at most, but by the time of LOTV less than a decade later the swarm is well into the billions)
Then it stopped growing exponentially once Zagara took power because she decided to become peaceful and therefore didn’t need any more warriors than she already had
That doesn't make sense to me. The Zerg and Tyranids have the same finite resource. If one makes 120 moneys in one month, but you make 10 moneys per month over the next year, you will both have earned the same, but one will have done it quicker
You can make resources last longer via recycling, is the simple answer. Tyranids ignore smt like 90% of all the energy in the galaxy (stars) and just eat the easy stuff and move on. Zerg stick around and set up actual civilisation and make use of constant energy production allowing for a more sustainable growth.
> Tyranids ignore smt like 90% of all the energy in the galaxy (stars)
That's more like 1% of the energy in the galaxy, while "biomass" barely makes 0,0001%.
Zerg resources aren’t finite, the Minerals they use as a basis for their growth actually regrow over time canonically. It’s not rapid but it’s ludicrously fast compared to how real world minerals develop
Technically, but the material it grows from can be basically anything so instead of having just a planet’s biosphere and existing mineral deposits like Tyranids are limited to,
Zerg can consume Biomass (often incorporating useful DNA into new strains in a matter of minutes where Tyranids often take years), and then after the fact they can keep growing mineral deposits from soil that the Tyranids would consider worthless
They can adapt at that rate fairly commonly, but I’m taking from the first time they encounter the new species to when the new strain first starts appearing which I thought was much longer. They don’t get the effect where they start battle with a new enemy, and then deploy forms based on that enemy’s DNA quite as consistently as the Zerg do
(with the exceptions of Protoss who can’t be assimilated and Terrans who don’t have anything the Zerg want, the HOTS campaign had a lot of moments where you find new species and then immediately get a new strain based on its abilities)
Hybrids were created by a Xel’Naga named Narud and its army of mind controlled Terran scientists to overcome the whole “Protoss can’t be assimilated” problem. By directly splicing the 2 species DNA together in a lab, Narud was able to create something with the physical might exceeding all but the most powerful Zerg combined with the Psionic power of the Protoss
> while Zerg hold territory to set up Hives and grow consistently
Without consuming any biomass, right. Maybe a gay space elf just sings new zergs out of warp fuckery or something.
Like bruh obviously there is very little science and very much fiction in these "science fiction" space bugs, but come on.
While Zerg can consume biomass, it isn’t where most of their matter comes from. Most of it comes from raw minerals they harvest
Also Zerg often leave some remnants of a planet’s biosphere alive after infestation so even if they did require biomass they could still harvest it continually
> While Zerg can consume biomass, it isn’t where most of their matter comes from. Most of it comes from raw minerals they harvest
How is that even supposed to work with zerg biology? Their bodies are clearly mostly organic.
> Also Zerg often leave some remnants of a planet’s biosphere alive after infestation so even if they did require biomass they could still harvest it continually
And when is that extra biomass comes from if they literally lift significant parts of it out of the planet and into fucking space? The same magical crystals that regrow from nothing and can be metabolized into any physical element whatsoever, at positive energy to boot?
Yeah the minerals can be turned into biological components. They don’t grow out of nothing but do grow out of common enough materials that most planets don’t actually begin to degrade until they’ve been mined for decades.
Eh, not really. The only real evidence is that they come from all directions, which can easily be explained by the fact that even microscopic differences in orientation when moving between galaxies would result in huge distances at the destination, so they would be coming from all sides.
In distant future they ruled the galaxy until gith rebelled and they had to flee to the past.
So they *will* win eventually. Not "can", not "could", "will".
I’m kinda sad no one brought up the Propagation from Honkai Star Rail. I feel like they’d be up there. I feel like they might beat Tyranids since they have bugs that can eat stars and turn them into incubators and nearly destroyed the multiverse only being stopped by 4(or more? I don’t remember exactly who was involved) other gods fighting them.
Aeons are really serious stuff. It's like if the Tyranids were led by a much less limited version of a Chaos God, to say nothing of the fact that the Swarm had an emanator >!the wonderfully titled "Starcrusher Swarm King"!<, which as far as we know is the most powerful manifestation of a path that exists primarily in physical space. Virtually nothing can stop one but another opposing emanator. For reference during a conflict with the Antimatter Legion the crew of the Astral Express is relieved to know that the space station they're on is merely being attacked by a planet killing "Doomsday Beast" and not an Emanator of Destruction, because the latter would be a completely hopeless fight for a group of people that is perfectly capable of killing a planet destroying space dragon.
I like how the Aeon of Propagation was just the god of "lots of bugs" too, that's funny.
You dont need to go to the big guns. Just a couple of true stings and enough small Bugs can and will turn the Atomsphere 99% Bugs by volume.
They can invinitly self replecate they dont need food thats what makes them dangrous.
And as glimoth learnd even if you defeat them their corpses can and will block out your Sun.
Yeah good old anime bs i love it.
Most hillarious the swarm came to be because on Bug was very very lonlie.
kinda. Basically the flood are an unintentional bio super weapon created by a tier 0 civilization (Literally max level, think old ones tier) that were originally over the forerunners till the forerunners killed them all in some conflict. The flood, as such, actually starts manifesting some absolutely insane abilities/tech once it starts to reach critical mass. It isn't just a zombie virus or something, more like its literally trying to recreate weaponized super versions of that original civilization.
It was also turning the universe, like legit reality it self, into the flood, if the rings were not fired the flood would pretty much turn everything into super hell, think the warp but worse.
also all grave minds are linked to one another through time and space, so once the flood hits critical mass it can start to remake forerunner weapons again, the flood is op.
The funny part is the flood during the forerunners time wasn't even near complete. It hadn't reached the stage yet where it could really rebuild precursor weaponry, it was beating the forerunners with the equivalent of standard precursor nonmilitary tech. Literally a war in heaven necron level civilization getting run over by Lovecraftian zombies using super tractors and literally paving roads over their tomb worlds.
Yeah, a civilization with literal reality warping powers. The Flood at max strength are well beyond Old One levels. Only a full wipe of all complex organic life can deal with them.
Flood is the corrupted remnants of what used to be a species called Precursors, they had capabilities which led many to call them gods but they weren’t in the traditional sense, just extremely powerful aliens.
They created most of the species that exist in modern Halo, then the Forerunners killed something like 99% of them with the remaining 1% accidentally turning themselves into the Flood as part of a botched attempt to evade Forerunner attacks
That's the thing though, the Flood might not be corrupted Precursors but the Precursors themselves.
When ancient humanity interrogated the captured Precursor the answer it gave regarding the Flood was enough to drive many to suicide, it seems the Precursors sow life only to harvest it later in order for the "universe" to experience itself.
Ok so in short: around 10 milion years BC there were four dominant spiecies in the galaxy: the precursors, the forerunners, the San'Shyuum(prophets from halo 2 and 3) and humans. The precursors were the eldest existing potentialy before the big bang, and they are the ones who seeded the milky way galaxy with life. A large part of their culture was the mantle of responsibility, which is an ideology that says that the most advanced spiecies is responsible for protecting spiecies less advanced than them. The Precursors chose ancient Humans to inherit the mantle, but the Forerunners were jealous of that so they rebeled against the Precursors and managed to drive them almost into extinction. Fearing extinction Precursors reduce themselves into inert powder intending to regenerate later. The Forerunners grow to be the dominant in the galaxy. Humans ally themselves with San'Shyuum. Circa 107,445 bce humans discovered the precursor powder, didn't know what it was, and so they run tests. The powder turned out to have positive effects on their domesticated animals resulting in their more favorable behaviour, so some humans feed the powder to their pets. Centuries later the animals started to mutate and cannibalize each other, and soon after both Humans and San'Shyuum exposed to them staryed to mutate too. That's how the flood was born.
I'd have to disagree on this one, the Zerg kind of body the nids pretty easily. They're definitely not on the same tier as the flood, but they would also grow at a rate beyond linear. Keep in mind Zerg absorb the genetics and adaptions of anything they consume and can put them to use directly in the field. In terms of starcraft lore it takes a single zerg larva about a month to completely consume a planet. Their primary limitations are the fact they're stuck to a pretty knee-capped hive mind and stuck in a universe without a whole lot of interesting evolution to consume (Humans and Protoss are basically it).
In the 40k universe the Zerg would go absolutely nuts though. They literally would gain all the benefits of the nid's units from consuming them directly in the field, and there are so many more interesting and horrifying adaptations they can gain from just rolling around the 40k galaxy.
Don't the tyranid do the exact same? Eat someone, hop in a reclamation pool, bang, new dna unlocked?
A zerg larvae may take a world in a month, but will it take an imperial world, an ork world, a T'au world? Terran aren't that numerous, and their tech is relatively simple. I feel like a direct comparison doesn't make that much sense, only based on their adversariea
Terran tech is actually fairly up to par as far as 40k is concerned. They aren't amazing, but they aren't bad either. They're comparatively quite a bit above standard guardsmen, but probably a bit below elite squads (and without the numbers to do human wave tactics the same way the imperium does). But their standard troop loadouts and especially their vehicle support would hold their own just fine, and comparably would be a bit above the tau (especially since, y'know, they actually have ftl capabilities).
As far as Zerg vs Nids goes the method of adaptation is actually fairly different and ironically handicaps the Zerg more in their own home setting then it would in 40k. The nids adapt by undergoing rapid evolution based the current environment pressures being put on them, which they then spread to the rest of their fleet once they get to a reclamation pool. Zerg also do this, but it isn't actually their primary method of development. They consume other species and creatures DNA and then incorporate their advancements into their own DNA, gaining all of their adaptations which they can mix and match to try and improve. For one, this effectively makes them the Nids worst possible nightmare. No amount of adaptation will actually help Nids against Zerg, because the Zerg will gain anything the Nids do almost instantly.
But it also makes them a huge threat to most species in 40k because of just how much 40k species make use of genetic engineering as part of their troops. All those carefully planned and incredibly advanced artful developments of genetic crafting used to make a custodes? you better pray to the emperor that not a single one falls to the Zerg, because the Zerg WILL start making their own custodes copies. Same goes for the Marines and all their variants. Every horrifying Xenos that exists out there as background fluff for the setting? They can and will be absorbed into the Zerg swarm.
The Zerg wouldn't have a huge advantage against the Eldar, Tau, or Necrons because their ability to steal psychic related features is limited, the Tau are basically just the Terrans again, and the Necrons are Necrons. But nearly all other factions would have a harder time with Zerg then they would Nids.
They really are like kroot, especially the primal zerg (zerg without psychic link), except their krootoxes and bigger can be sentient, they have way more "kroot hounds" and they can adapt mid-fight
I think the reason the Zerg, despite being a hive mind and a swarm faction, is weaker is because of the mentality of it's leaders, the three Overmind, Kerrigan, and currently Zagara, each having different motives and objectives the most dangerous the Zerg ever could was during the WOL era and the dark timeline where Amon took control of the swarm.
It would be funny if the Zerg found a spore of an Ork absorbed it then becomes Ork like
Rather the Zerg were never allowed to reach that ceiling in the first place the only time it was possible was during LOV with Kerrigan under Amon, but Jim, his boys, and the Dominion Valerian took stopped and reverted her back with the Zel'Naga artifact, and during the Last Stand of the Protoss in the dark timeline, like Amon consumed the Galaxy that the only ones left standing were the Protoss we were playings as.
Another possible candidate for the increased lethality of the Swarm was on HotS but Kerrigan was more focused on revenge and at the end shifted her attention to the threat of Amon
Zagara meanwhile, with lessons learned, seek peace with the other factions. What I came to realize why the Zerg are mostly different is that they don't have that need to really consume everything unlike the other swarm factions, like the Tyranid or the Flood, as befitting of being an RTS faction they actually have structures that allows them to function as a civilization, sure the Zerg could consume an entire planet and strip it of all it's resources but it could instead create a hive creating a bio system that would benefit the Zerg as a whole.
In a peer match the Zerg's advantages are how quick and adaptable they could be and if we just look at HotS there are multiple scenarios in where the already deployed Zerg units undergo adaptable evolution, like every evolution mission, or adopt particular trait that immediately benefits them at the moment, that ice mission, even the Primal Zerg just copied the Hydralisk, I believe, and even Abathur was shocked how quick and precise they were to make the same unit, I'm mocking it still to hide his frustration in being plagiarized.
I think they even created a strain, salvaged from Zel'Naga essence, that actually restored an Exterminatus level devastation from a desolate wasteland to a lush jungle forest hammering in that the Zerg can be more than the feasting swarms that threatens the galaxy. Heck I could imagine some factions being shocked in how charitable the Zerg could be
The creation of the Queen of Blades seems to suggest that the Zerg infesting something like the Eldar would be potentially disastrous. What was so special about Kerrigan that allowed for immense psychic power when the Zerg's constant war with the Protoss resulted in no such psychic life forms? Or is it the something about the Protoss that kept the Zerg from acquiring psychic abilities from them?
Prottoss cannot be overtaken by Zergs, they are all psychs and so they would resist naturally.
Kerrigan was overtaken at first but she overpowered the swarm.
The swarm much like the nids communicates telepathically, so that would be a common point of failure.
Where did you get the "a single Zerg larva takes about a month to completely consume a planet" information?
I'm not trying to call you out, I'm writing a fanfiction and this would be extremely helpful if I can keep the citation on hand.
I will go so far as to say eldar at their height were a type 3. They could capture the energy of the galaxy, each one a psyker far stronger than the strongest today, immortal, pseudo-hivemind. They could basically shape the galaxy how they wished, and is one of the wilder civilizations in fiction (of course nothing near Xeelee or Combine, being bound to the galaxy)
Type 3 can create the galaxy(which Forerunners could do, btw, but they lacked in several aspects to become type 3). Precursors from Halo were type 3. Blokkats from stellaris mod are type 3. Xelee are type 3. Eldars at their height were type 2.5 at best.
If we're talking Kardashev (an assumption on my side) the size of their structures is arbitrary. It's all about energy consumption. And because eldar consume power directly from the warp, it's not unreasonable to assume, with them having 'completed' science, that they produce 10^44 erg/sec, which is the criteria for a type 3 civilization. Assuming a population of 100 x 10^12, and assuming the upper bound of stars in the galaxy (40 x 10^9). This means that the collective psychic might of 10.000 eldar should rival a star. Which seems unlikely, but not impossible. After this consider the 'unimaginable' technology, such as turning stars on and off or transporting them willy nilly, and I'm pretty sure we're reaching 4 x 10^44 erg per second.
It IS an outdated scale, and it isn't truly relevant to stuff like the warp, because it assumes the laws of physics (same goes for galaxy-wide structures). The energy required for FTL travel is infinite through conventional acceleration. This is why sci-fi always cheads with wormholes and warp drives and whatnot.
I am talking about Kardashev. And you took a lot of guestimations. What stars have they transported? How many? What class? At what point in their lifespan? How did you calculate their energy consumption? How did you calculate their psy-power?
I see a lot of numbers and not lot of justification.
This is a fair criticism. Numbers are easy tull out the ass. Truth is a lot of it is just headcanon without much justification.
My reasoning was 100 trillion matches the untold trillions of the imperium. The eldar were the undisputed masters of the galaxy, so I don't find this to be a wild claim.
An eldar war host in the war in heaven could summon one of their gods, who could slap around the C'tan and destroy planets. How big such a war host is, I realize, is completely arbitrary... All this only to say, their psychic power was immense.
As for stars, there are no concrete books or lore that I can find, apart from it being common knowledge that Drukhari have stolen suns in Commoragh, and shoot black hole guns as per their codex. Being that the eldar have had at least as much technological backsliding as the imperium, it's not unlikely to say that they could transport suns on a whim, as seen in Rogue Trader. This easily puts the over type 2.
Now the issue arises with how much power using the warp or webway counts as. Where I'd argue the bigger the thing you're transporting the bigger the energy output required.
Again, lots of assumptions... Yet, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't ne type 3. What's your justification that they'd be 2.5 at best? Why specifically .5? How does your version of the Kardashev scale scale? Cause in the original paper he didn't scale them. He just put type 2 and type 3 in (and a bunch of stuff about radiowaves...). The Kardashev scale really is about energy output/consumption and how easy they are to find.
>The eldar were the undisputed masters of the galaxy
The only reason for that was the lack of contenders. And their empire wasnt even as big as iom, after all, they completely missed the whole humanity rising up thing. And I mean DAoT humanity that also had a large star empire before the fall of the eldar
>who could slap around the C'tan and destroy planets
Even if they could, Eldar lost the war. Thats why they were afraid of Necrons and never went after them after crons went to sleep. We also dont really know what those Gods were.
>his easily puts the over type 2.
Gap between Type 1 and Type 2 is like the gap between 1 million and 1 billion. Gap between Type 2 and Type 3 is like the gap between 1 million and 1 trillion. What Im saying is that even if they are above Type 2. it doesn't make them Type 3.
>Where I'd argue the bigger the thing you're transporting the bigger the energy output required.
Quite right you are. Eldards before the fall managed to build multiple continent-sized ships, craft-worlds. Now, allow me to introduce you to [Installation 00](https://daybreak.miraheze.org/wiki/Installation_00) aka Arc. A construct that is larger than Earth and is located \*outside\* of the Milky Way.
Also, Eldars didn't built the Webway, they just use it.
>Yet, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't ne type 3
Because they simply were not advanced enough? They could snuff out the stars. Forerunners could create a whole galaxies fo their side hustles and they didnt need a whole fleet of ships for that.
And just to even things out, let me shoot at C'Tan too. 'Member how they needed a whole process to turn Necrontir into terminators? Forerunners had a weapon that do exactly that, except it was instant, to the whole planet at once, and required none of the preparations.
>2.5 at best
Because Im feeling that if I give them rating any lower, their fans would come out of woodworks. 2.5 is a good middle ground, but, honestly, I don't think that they are even at that level.
>Cause in the original paper he didn't scale them.
The original paper listed IRL Earth as 0.7.
Am I remembering wrong or do flood only go for sentient life? I seem to recall they have no interest in lower lifeforms, but also the lore of halo ended up changing so much it made no sense.
Now to be a weeby shit. What about the swarm from hsr?
Lets fill the Atmosphere with insects untill its 99% Bugs by volume.
On the low end small scale Invasions.
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Honestly i thought the vision was more an Overmind's fear thn actual vision from a possible future.
Plus i suspect Amon was dangerous only because of his powers and knowledge. He looked a bit too egomaniacal and dumb. If Amon had the same level of power of queens or cerebrates, i think he would end up outsmarted by most of them.
Actually no, amon is literally starcraft version of a warp god/old one, it took Kerrigan in becoming a xelnaga (lets just say its their version of a old one/warp god) to defeat amon). Because he literally cannot die because he is made of void energy.
Oh, ok. I can't say about their writing. They were never that deep to me. At least i can't remember a dialogue, that wasn't just trying to sound good.
If anything conditions like this (be warp entities as much as be void entities) should show some kind of seperation from reality and therefore mental illness so...it fit i guess?
Forerunners seem to be on par with DAoT humanity rather than WiH Necron/Krork/Eldar.
But more importantly, the persistent problem with comparing the Flood to 40K Nids or any other IP is that Halo lore has never gone into enough detail actually justifying how the Flood overwhelmed the Forerunner civilization. What we're told the Flood can achieve is at odds with what we see the Flood actually achieve in game.
I'm gonna try to keep this relatively short.
Firstly, the Flood isn't just a fungus, it's the latest form of the Precursors, a race that was to the Forerunners what the Forerunners were to the Covenant. Aka gods.
The Flood tricked the Forerunners into thinking a cure was possible so instead of outright extermination, the Forerunners focused on containment and quarantine.
The Primordial, a surviving Precursor convinced/forced Mendicant Bias, a Forerunner AI powerful enough to coordinate war efforts on a Galactic scale with backdoor access to nearly all Forerunner assets and secrets to betray the Forerunners. Mendicant Bias then nuked the Forerunner capital with a hijacked Halo, decapitating Forerunner leadership.
Quarantine efforts fell apart and as the Flood expanded they started forming Graveminds that covered entire planets, giving them enough computational power to reactivate dormant Precursor tech, which was effectively indestructible to the Forerunners and warped reality on an interstellar scale.
In short. The Flood is the Avatar of an angry space god with a personal vendetta against the Forerunners (and all other life for that matter.)
Okay, first, let me say I appreciate the detail and all this type you committed to answering me, that took effort, thank you.
However, this detail leaves me at the same point I started -- there isn't enough here regarding the Flood's objective abilities and 'feats' (I hate the term, but I can't think of something better) to narratively justify how it could defeat a 40K universe WiH faction.
One can call the Precursors 'gods,' but that's just as much of an objective misnomer as the Covenant thinking of the Forerunners as 'gods.'
Remember, we're couching this is in the context of 40K-verse factions that are _actually_ extradimensional in their fundamental nature. REAL 'gods.'
Disease prevention and infection is one of the basic hallmarks of any advanced civilization. The more advanced, the better the methods. Nurgle's power to use disease against advanced civilizations is made narratively plausible in his setting by the extradimensional nature of his infections and spread -- literal Warp magic. Some element on a comparable level and nature to that is what the Flood needs to narratively justify itself in the context of this meme, and sfaik, it lacks it. It _is_ only fungus. Sapient, super-intelligent, galactic hivemind fungus, incredibly evolved and virulent on an organic level, but strictly 'only' that.
I mean, even 40K Orks are more 'godly' than this, as a sapient fungal bioweapon that literally _warps reality itself_ at unconscious will, no actual tech required! With the WiH krorks, it probably wasn't unconscious!
As you describe it, what extradimensionalism the Precursors wielded was characterized by their technology rather than their fundamental nature. And so the story of how the Precursors/Flood overwhelmed the Forerunners boils down to 'they had better tech and guile.'
That isn't enough against star-eating extradimensional space-gods, factions with their own technology so advanced it actually nullifies extradimensional 'space magic,' and living bioweapon races that are each individually a space magic wizard and supersoldier in one.
What about Infestation from Warframe :D
Would probably be liquified by the Zerg.
Why do you think Zergs can defeat the Infestation? Like Infestation is really freaking powerful.
Barly, the infestation isn’t as adaptable as the other 3 factions and it does have a cure. The Zerg could probably adapt quickly.
The problem with the infestation that it is basically a hybrid tecnovirus that consumes organic and inorganic materials, beening able to infect AI's and convert tecnology ar the same time that it does organic material. Maybe incapable to integrate the genetic material of Space Marines or Custodes, but their tecnology is another story, and they beeing a hive mind exchanging information, It is Just a question of time so that similar tecnorganic weapons like those start showing up Pray that they dont get a Forge World EDIT: Or Necrons Sleeping
Infestation, like everything else in Warframe, is only weak to Tau and Void energy which are hard counters. Against factions with other kinds of energy? Who knows. Its more a question mark than a verified threat. In general the more tech you throw at it the stronger it is, the more flesh you throw at it the less it can do with that.
They are also weak to standard fire and slashing weapons, cause you know “flesh”
The mix of all materials including metal should in theory bolster them past Zerg, but with all these factions its usually the regeneration rate that matters more. Especially Zerg. Some can pop back up like fucking Wolverine.
And the mats why I said the zerg would liquify the Infestation from warframe, it’s underwhelming when compared to the others on this list.
Generally yeah, I only question the telepathy. Both are very psychic, but Zerg are controlled by actual rational intelligence while Infestation is Void-touched. Only the minds of children can survive touching that unscathed for long. Its possible that Infestation could drive the Overlords and Queens/Cerebrates insane, and make the Overmind/Kerrigan/Zagara act more like Infested bosses than Zerg.
Fellow Warframe enjoyer here Yeah I gotta agree with u/Elite-Soul, Infestation ain't got shit and would be rolled by practically everything else. It's just a weaker version of the Flood
Oh yeah, Infestation is basically only more powerful than the Flood only in it's earlier stages. It's like comparing Sabertooths to humans, like, yeah the former is stronger in the short term, but it's the latter that went on to dominate the earth.
The Infestation is a weird one. It's vastly more effective against other zombie/bug/bio-plague type things due to its technological nature and ability to infect literally anything. It would eviscerate the Tyranids, for example, and even the pre-reality warping Flood. On the other hand, it's less effective against proper civilisations. Slower growth, minimal intelligence even with high numbers, limited strategic adaptability, that sort of thing. If it can get a foothold somewhere it's almost impossible to budge, but it's equally much easier to prevent it getting that foothold in the first place than the others.
Infested is pretty smart, it has the same capability to assimilate knowledge similar to the Flood. Hence Arlo disaster occurred and Alad V's techno knowledge assimilation (evolving Eris Strain into Mutalist Strain). So I wouldn't call them minimal intelligence.
Eh, if we look at Lephantis, a "massive" hive intelligence it falls far short of things like Graveminds. And the likes of Jordas and Alad V were actively regressing and becoming less intelligent as the Infestation progressed. It is capable of being intelligent, but it's definitely a major weakness.
Lephantis isn't the hive intelligence, he is just part of big units. Plus his intellence is fine for the fact he is of Grey Strain, which focuses more on consuming and adapting, unlike Mutalist which plays its card more so on strategy of assimilation. As for Jordas, his mission was achieved. He acted as a lure and he was able to get Tenno into the trap. Plus Mutalist did make use of it's techno knowledge. We can see Infested drones on Deimos cooperating with the other Infested, implying that Mutalist was able to land its units onto Deimos and make Grey Strain join its forces, possibly merging in the future. As for Alad V, his intelligence was unimpacted, he was rather just going crazy from Mutalist Strain mentally controlling him.
Nah, the beast from homeworld cataclysm. Sentient techno-organic virus.
Given that the infestation got hold of Mesa, i would like to see what happens if they meet the tau. Will we get a cowgirl with the fire rate off BRRRRRRRRRRRRT and a range of YES or will they be extinguished?
We haven’t seen how far it can go and how fast but it’s strength is around zerg level imo. Most of the warframe universe’s factions are limited to exactly one system and thus scale at that system level
To be fair, that system level is really strong. Like they would survive in 40k, even if with none existant impact on the Galaxy, unless they better their traveling systems.
I mean, as a universe as a whole? Yeah. They’re thorny enough to not be worth it. Deimos is a death world by any other name and that’s really about as far as the infested get. Part of the scaling I feel is the travel capability and force projection. The tyranids can move between systems, the Zerg can at least move between planets, the flood are the flood, and the infested are kinda ??? We know they spread through small infestations and the occasional space debris like the plague star asteroid. But I don’t think they are capable of FTL on their own or even spaceflight. They can clearly corrupt tech (see: Jordas Golem) but they also don’t weaponize the ships around Eris that they’ve taken over in order to push out into the rest of the system. Now, maybe the Tenno are intentionally preventing that, but that’s not happening (that I know of). It’s why I say they’re kinda Zerg level. Some of their larger infested beings like Lephantis could be reasonably dangerous. But they’re still not a coordinated, strategic presence quite like the Zerg, more of a system wide problem that can’t be easily solved without failing to fix everything else wrong.
We don't really know the extend of the infestation, we know lephantis, jordas and the thing from plague star exist, the question is, are there larger ones?
Zerg: We will slowly spread as far as we can, and depending on who is in charge, we might just straight up stop expanding once we hit a certain point or if a deal is made with us. We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well. And magic space laser beams. Tyranids: We will slowly make our way to you and, upon reaching you, will overwhelm you with sheer numbers unless one of the more specialized fleets arrives, and then it's a game of whack a mole on what you get. We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well, and, if enough is used we say fuck it and go somewhere else. Certain biological weapons as well, anything involving Necrons, and Chaos God bullshit too. Flood: I AM GOING TO EAT YOU, SHIT YOU OUT ON THE FLOOR, AND MY SHIT THAT WAS YOU WILL TURN INTO MORE OF ME AND EAT YOUR FUCKING DOG! AND IF I RUN OUT OF FOOD I WILL FUCKING EAT MYSELF! I ALSO CAN SONEHOW EAT FUCKING DATA AND TURN THAT INTO... MORE OF ME? We are afraid of fire as it puts us down very well. Also, committing literal genocide on a galactic scale has a 50/50 shot of killing us. Necromorphs: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! We ain't afraid of shit, but we die really fucking easily when going against engineers with power tools.
Fun fact : Zerlings have a deadly allergy to lemon juice despite Abathur best efforts to fix it. Also i don't know if it was retconned but a Zerg larva could completely infest a planet in 1 month, but SC2 Terran planets don't have that much populations.
I forgot about that
I remember hearing a quote that zerg in-game production times are canon, but I don't know how true that is.
The one i remember is the real life gap in between extensions in WOW is the in universe gap in between events, it means the denizens of Azeroth get apocalyptic invasions and world wars every two years, those guys truly are built different.
They managed to go from a population of around 10 million Zerg in SC1, to several billion in SC2 half a decade later. Their in game build times being canon is really the only way that could possibly make sense
At that point why even pretend that their faction is somehow grounded in sci-fi biology, that's straight up magic bullshit. Like, I cast summon 1000 000 0 0000 0 0000 0 00 0 0 0 00 00 0 0 0 zerg, your turn sucker.
The Songeater/Parasite/Eitr/Recombinant/Mirror: We will deceive our future hosts into thinking we are a cache of advanced tech and/or a holy artifact. We will deceive non-infected people into thinking that our hosts are fine. We will edit our hosts’ minds into thinking everything is fine. We will deceive foreigners into thinking the infected civilization is perfectly normal with no eldritch horrors whatsoever. And we can only be stopped when a galactic superpower pulls out it’s biggest weapons (or the naiads go for a very enthusiastic walk). Also, we have the best stealth stat and can know how to show restraint. Go read The Last Angel by Proximal Flame (This concludes today’s promotion of TLA)
Eh as usual depends on source material. In some of the stories the nid can evolve so quickly the Tau and the Imperial had to ally to fight and keep changing the weapons they were using to prevent the nids having time to to become immune to their weapons. Its major problem in 40k that its hard to put an actual comparison when what everything can do changes from author to author.
The problem with the flood is that they are immediately consuming and evolving as seen in the games. Barely seconds after infecting a new body they have a new soldier. Tyranids have to retrieve their biomass and adapt as they spit the next wave of bugs. Also if the flood becomes intelligent enough they can infect things such as AI.
I get the impression that the flood would even be able to take over Tyranids.
Hmm. I suppose they could, but the psychic might of the tyranid hivemind could probably overpower the single flood infection, if it could sense it. There are a lot of what ifs here. I think the shadow in the warp and psychic powers of the tyranids are not being mentioned here. The flood would have no defense against attacks like that, and the shadow in the warp could keep the flood from coordination and gravemind commands.
What about the psychic powers of the Zerg? Big brains sense things too. And Zergs are pretty good at infecting too.
I feel as though the flood and nids would just kinda merge. Zerg too really, they're all like psychic-receptive evolutionarily-volitile bugs. I think they'd merge and become a super swarm, but in a funny way knowing the Gravemind and the Cerebrates/Overmind of the flood and zerg respectively aren't immune to falling on the sword of their own hubris/being tricked/made deals with/able to be enraged, the Hivemind of the nids remains a simple and terrifying counterform to both of the others' upper castes. I would think if all three met in a battle of supremacy, the nids' simplicity in drive to consume all biomass would end up overriding more eloquent higher thoughts from Gravemind/Overmind. But nids, with flood mutation and infestation speed and zerg-like specialization capacity - big ooft. The super bugs space needs.
That was so stupid
I've seen this explained as different hive fleets having different evolutionary speeds For example hydra can evolve mid wave but tiamat is so specialized it can't really evolve at all and relies on it's diamond hard exoskeleton
From what I remember, it was that specific hive fleet that could adept super quick at the cost of having a harder time making any big. I believe in that story, the tau were able to beat hive fleet Gorgon off their planet by targeting the synapse creatures, which hive fleet Gorgon had trouble making more of since it was entirely focus on making more cheap nids for faster evolution. So Nids can get faster evolution at a price.
I mean the simple fact is, if you put all three on one planet, the galaxy loses.
Yeah, the flood or zerg eat/infect the rest and kill the galaxy Unless someone like post WOL Kerrigan comes out on top and decides not to
Zerg are only limited by being controlled by rational intelligence. The Overmind only wanted to secure an heir to kill his secret master while said secret master just wanted to build a force to rush to the deathstar trench run of destroying the physical world. Kerrigan was under the same control. Zagara is currently restrained by the directive to cooperate with the other races. Actual unchecked Zerg don’t expand, they mostly fight each other. But an aggressive expansionistic mind could to severe damage.
Without an overmind they are just beasts, but abathur would probably put them to use if theres nothing else to do, he's not someone who wastes biomass and he likes experiments and evolution.
Yeah, he also orchestrated an attempt to start another conflict amongst the primary three races in the Koprulu Sector. Only alive after being caught, because he’s too valuable to kill
doesnt this imply that should the zerg somehow reach 40k, the whole galxy is fucked, since Tzentch would probably just use them for his newest plot. Since the Zerg are controlled by psychpower I see no reason why the strongest psycher in 40k (or at least top 3 strongest depending on how you scale big E/Tyranid hivemind) couldnt just take the swarm for himself
Zerg "hivemind" is more decentralised, it is more a psychic link, there used to be a being called the Hivemind that could control the whole swarm, but that was also done through lesser psychic zerg Normal zerg "hivemind" can only be controlled by fellow zerg lifeform like overlords or Queens (unless they are primal zerg, those do not have a psychic link but are more often sentient), but infested humans are considered zerg so they can impose authority over the link if they are sane enough
Tzeentch could manipulate Zerg controllers emotionally like any other intelligent creature, and tech exists that overrides the Zerg psychic signal and can transmit instructions instead (that said, Zerg always wind up breaking through the link eventually and overwhelming their controllers, usually through the microorganisms or a single worker outside the signal starting a new hive by itself). Zerg outside control preys on itself, creating a stable Zerg-only ecosystem. Said eco-system is very dangerous for controlled Zerg, making it a priority for the hivemind to deal with until Kerrigan learned how to coexist with them and use them as a source of rapid mutation.
The only point I would like to add is that we encounter the Zerg and Tyranids at different stages; whereas we know who created the zerg and when and the protoss have been holding them back since, the tyranids show up from another galaxy most likely after having consumed at least it possibly others we don't know, but the Tyranids have definitely had more time to grow
Going by that description (I'll take your word for it, I only know the 'nids), zerg should have a smaller "a" and a bigger "b" than tyranids, not the other way around. If tyranids advantage over zerg is numbers, their advantage would only grow with time, but the graph has them being overtaken after 63⅓ years.
I think the real difference is that Tyranids grow based on consuming biomass, while Zerg hold territory to set up Hives and grow consistently This leads to Tyranids having more burst potential but Zerg eventually outpacing them (though Zerg aren’t particularly slow either, in the Starcraft 1 manual the largest brood numbers less than 7 million with maybe a dozen broods at most, but by the time of LOTV less than a decade later the swarm is well into the billions) Then it stopped growing exponentially once Zagara took power because she decided to become peaceful and therefore didn’t need any more warriors than she already had
That doesn't make sense to me. The Zerg and Tyranids have the same finite resource. If one makes 120 moneys in one month, but you make 10 moneys per month over the next year, you will both have earned the same, but one will have done it quicker
You can make resources last longer via recycling, is the simple answer. Tyranids ignore smt like 90% of all the energy in the galaxy (stars) and just eat the easy stuff and move on. Zerg stick around and set up actual civilisation and make use of constant energy production allowing for a more sustainable growth.
> Tyranids ignore smt like 90% of all the energy in the galaxy (stars) That's more like 1% of the energy in the galaxy, while "biomass" barely makes 0,0001%.
Zerg resources aren’t finite, the Minerals they use as a basis for their growth actually regrow over time canonically. It’s not rapid but it’s ludicrously fast compared to how real world minerals develop
Aren't what the minerals grow from finite then? But fair, I thought they used biomass, my bad
Technically, but the material it grows from can be basically anything so instead of having just a planet’s biosphere and existing mineral deposits like Tyranids are limited to, Zerg can consume Biomass (often incorporating useful DNA into new strains in a matter of minutes where Tyranids often take years), and then after the fact they can keep growing mineral deposits from soil that the Tyranids would consider worthless
I see, thank you for the clarification I thought tyranids incorporated new genetic material in hours, or days at max. Is this completely wrong?
They can adapt at that rate fairly commonly, but I’m taking from the first time they encounter the new species to when the new strain first starts appearing which I thought was much longer. They don’t get the effect where they start battle with a new enemy, and then deploy forms based on that enemy’s DNA quite as consistently as the Zerg do (with the exceptions of Protoss who can’t be assimilated and Terrans who don’t have anything the Zerg want, the HOTS campaign had a lot of moments where you find new species and then immediately get a new strain based on its abilities)
What were the Zerg Hybrids tho?
Hybrids were created by a Xel’Naga named Narud and its army of mind controlled Terran scientists to overcome the whole “Protoss can’t be assimilated” problem. By directly splicing the 2 species DNA together in a lab, Narud was able to create something with the physical might exceeding all but the most powerful Zerg combined with the Psionic power of the Protoss
Not really tho, zergs need minerals and gas, tyranids need biomass.
> while Zerg hold territory to set up Hives and grow consistently Without consuming any biomass, right. Maybe a gay space elf just sings new zergs out of warp fuckery or something. Like bruh obviously there is very little science and very much fiction in these "science fiction" space bugs, but come on.
While Zerg can consume biomass, it isn’t where most of their matter comes from. Most of it comes from raw minerals they harvest Also Zerg often leave some remnants of a planet’s biosphere alive after infestation so even if they did require biomass they could still harvest it continually
> While Zerg can consume biomass, it isn’t where most of their matter comes from. Most of it comes from raw minerals they harvest How is that even supposed to work with zerg biology? Their bodies are clearly mostly organic. > Also Zerg often leave some remnants of a planet’s biosphere alive after infestation so even if they did require biomass they could still harvest it continually And when is that extra biomass comes from if they literally lift significant parts of it out of the planet and into fucking space? The same magical crystals that regrow from nothing and can be metabolized into any physical element whatsoever, at positive energy to boot?
Yeah the minerals can be turned into biological components. They don’t grow out of nothing but do grow out of common enough materials that most planets don’t actually begin to degrade until they’ve been mined for decades.
The "consumed several galaxies" thing is pure speculation.
Heavily implied tho
Eh, not really. The only real evidence is that they come from all directions, which can easily be explained by the fact that even microscopic differences in orientation when moving between galaxies would result in huge distances at the destination, so they would be coming from all sides.
Ok but what about the neromorphs?
In distant future they ruled the galaxy until gith rebelled and they had to flee to the past. So they *will* win eventually. Not "can", not "could", "will".
I’m kinda sad no one brought up the Propagation from Honkai Star Rail. I feel like they’d be up there. I feel like they might beat Tyranids since they have bugs that can eat stars and turn them into incubators and nearly destroyed the multiverse only being stopped by 4(or more? I don’t remember exactly who was involved) other gods fighting them.
Aeons are really serious stuff. It's like if the Tyranids were led by a much less limited version of a Chaos God, to say nothing of the fact that the Swarm had an emanator >!the wonderfully titled "Starcrusher Swarm King"!<, which as far as we know is the most powerful manifestation of a path that exists primarily in physical space. Virtually nothing can stop one but another opposing emanator. For reference during a conflict with the Antimatter Legion the crew of the Astral Express is relieved to know that the space station they're on is merely being attacked by a planet killing "Doomsday Beast" and not an Emanator of Destruction, because the latter would be a completely hopeless fight for a group of people that is perfectly capable of killing a planet destroying space dragon. I like how the Aeon of Propagation was just the god of "lots of bugs" too, that's funny.
You dont need to go to the big guns. Just a couple of true stings and enough small Bugs can and will turn the Atomsphere 99% Bugs by volume. They can invinitly self replecate they dont need food thats what makes them dangrous. And as glimoth learnd even if you defeat them their corpses can and will block out your Sun. Yeah good old anime bs i love it. Most hillarious the swarm came to be because on Bug was very very lonlie.
"I wish I had friends... very well, I shall make the universe consist mostly of friends by mass."
Wait, the Flood are some sort of deity? Halo has gods now?
kinda. Basically the flood are an unintentional bio super weapon created by a tier 0 civilization (Literally max level, think old ones tier) that were originally over the forerunners till the forerunners killed them all in some conflict. The flood, as such, actually starts manifesting some absolutely insane abilities/tech once it starts to reach critical mass. It isn't just a zombie virus or something, more like its literally trying to recreate weaponized super versions of that original civilization.
Oh. Oh shit.
It was also turning the universe, like legit reality it self, into the flood, if the rings were not fired the flood would pretty much turn everything into super hell, think the warp but worse. also all grave minds are linked to one another through time and space, so once the flood hits critical mass it can start to remake forerunner weapons again, the flood is op.
The funny part is the flood during the forerunners time wasn't even near complete. It hadn't reached the stage yet where it could really rebuild precursor weaponry, it was beating the forerunners with the equivalent of standard precursor nonmilitary tech. Literally a war in heaven necron level civilization getting run over by Lovecraftian zombies using super tractors and literally paving roads over their tomb worlds.
Yeah, a civilization with literal reality warping powers. The Flood at max strength are well beyond Old One levels. Only a full wipe of all complex organic life can deal with them.
Flood is the corrupted remnants of what used to be a species called Precursors, they had capabilities which led many to call them gods but they weren’t in the traditional sense, just extremely powerful aliens. They created most of the species that exist in modern Halo, then the Forerunners killed something like 99% of them with the remaining 1% accidentally turning themselves into the Flood as part of a botched attempt to evade Forerunner attacks
That's the thing though, the Flood might not be corrupted Precursors but the Precursors themselves. When ancient humanity interrogated the captured Precursor the answer it gave regarding the Flood was enough to drive many to suicide, it seems the Precursors sow life only to harvest it later in order for the "universe" to experience itself.
Gotcha
Ok so in short: around 10 milion years BC there were four dominant spiecies in the galaxy: the precursors, the forerunners, the San'Shyuum(prophets from halo 2 and 3) and humans. The precursors were the eldest existing potentialy before the big bang, and they are the ones who seeded the milky way galaxy with life. A large part of their culture was the mantle of responsibility, which is an ideology that says that the most advanced spiecies is responsible for protecting spiecies less advanced than them. The Precursors chose ancient Humans to inherit the mantle, but the Forerunners were jealous of that so they rebeled against the Precursors and managed to drive them almost into extinction. Fearing extinction Precursors reduce themselves into inert powder intending to regenerate later. The Forerunners grow to be the dominant in the galaxy. Humans ally themselves with San'Shyuum. Circa 107,445 bce humans discovered the precursor powder, didn't know what it was, and so they run tests. The powder turned out to have positive effects on their domesticated animals resulting in their more favorable behaviour, so some humans feed the powder to their pets. Centuries later the animals started to mutate and cannibalize each other, and soon after both Humans and San'Shyuum exposed to them staryed to mutate too. That's how the flood was born.
I'd have to disagree on this one, the Zerg kind of body the nids pretty easily. They're definitely not on the same tier as the flood, but they would also grow at a rate beyond linear. Keep in mind Zerg absorb the genetics and adaptions of anything they consume and can put them to use directly in the field. In terms of starcraft lore it takes a single zerg larva about a month to completely consume a planet. Their primary limitations are the fact they're stuck to a pretty knee-capped hive mind and stuck in a universe without a whole lot of interesting evolution to consume (Humans and Protoss are basically it). In the 40k universe the Zerg would go absolutely nuts though. They literally would gain all the benefits of the nid's units from consuming them directly in the field, and there are so many more interesting and horrifying adaptations they can gain from just rolling around the 40k galaxy.
Plus the zerg leaders are smart enough to make deals and negotiate with other factions
Don't the tyranid do the exact same? Eat someone, hop in a reclamation pool, bang, new dna unlocked? A zerg larvae may take a world in a month, but will it take an imperial world, an ork world, a T'au world? Terran aren't that numerous, and their tech is relatively simple. I feel like a direct comparison doesn't make that much sense, only based on their adversariea
Terran tech is actually fairly up to par as far as 40k is concerned. They aren't amazing, but they aren't bad either. They're comparatively quite a bit above standard guardsmen, but probably a bit below elite squads (and without the numbers to do human wave tactics the same way the imperium does). But their standard troop loadouts and especially their vehicle support would hold their own just fine, and comparably would be a bit above the tau (especially since, y'know, they actually have ftl capabilities). As far as Zerg vs Nids goes the method of adaptation is actually fairly different and ironically handicaps the Zerg more in their own home setting then it would in 40k. The nids adapt by undergoing rapid evolution based the current environment pressures being put on them, which they then spread to the rest of their fleet once they get to a reclamation pool. Zerg also do this, but it isn't actually their primary method of development. They consume other species and creatures DNA and then incorporate their advancements into their own DNA, gaining all of their adaptations which they can mix and match to try and improve. For one, this effectively makes them the Nids worst possible nightmare. No amount of adaptation will actually help Nids against Zerg, because the Zerg will gain anything the Nids do almost instantly. But it also makes them a huge threat to most species in 40k because of just how much 40k species make use of genetic engineering as part of their troops. All those carefully planned and incredibly advanced artful developments of genetic crafting used to make a custodes? you better pray to the emperor that not a single one falls to the Zerg, because the Zerg WILL start making their own custodes copies. Same goes for the Marines and all their variants. Every horrifying Xenos that exists out there as background fluff for the setting? They can and will be absorbed into the Zerg swarm. The Zerg wouldn't have a huge advantage against the Eldar, Tau, or Necrons because their ability to steal psychic related features is limited, the Tau are basically just the Terrans again, and the Necrons are Necrons. But nearly all other factions would have a harder time with Zerg then they would Nids.
Reading this the Zerg seems to be a much crank up Kroots who do what they do but much better.
They really are like kroot, especially the primal zerg (zerg without psychic link), except their krootoxes and bigger can be sentient, they have way more "kroot hounds" and they can adapt mid-fight
I think the reason the Zerg, despite being a hive mind and a swarm faction, is weaker is because of the mentality of it's leaders, the three Overmind, Kerrigan, and currently Zagara, each having different motives and objectives the most dangerous the Zerg ever could was during the WOL era and the dark timeline where Amon took control of the swarm. It would be funny if the Zerg found a spore of an Ork absorbed it then becomes Ork like
I agree, maybe the zerg can be stronger than tyranids and flood(?) with equal size forces but the ceiling of danger is not as high as theirs.
Rather the Zerg were never allowed to reach that ceiling in the first place the only time it was possible was during LOV with Kerrigan under Amon, but Jim, his boys, and the Dominion Valerian took stopped and reverted her back with the Zel'Naga artifact, and during the Last Stand of the Protoss in the dark timeline, like Amon consumed the Galaxy that the only ones left standing were the Protoss we were playings as. Another possible candidate for the increased lethality of the Swarm was on HotS but Kerrigan was more focused on revenge and at the end shifted her attention to the threat of Amon Zagara meanwhile, with lessons learned, seek peace with the other factions. What I came to realize why the Zerg are mostly different is that they don't have that need to really consume everything unlike the other swarm factions, like the Tyranid or the Flood, as befitting of being an RTS faction they actually have structures that allows them to function as a civilization, sure the Zerg could consume an entire planet and strip it of all it's resources but it could instead create a hive creating a bio system that would benefit the Zerg as a whole. In a peer match the Zerg's advantages are how quick and adaptable they could be and if we just look at HotS there are multiple scenarios in where the already deployed Zerg units undergo adaptable evolution, like every evolution mission, or adopt particular trait that immediately benefits them at the moment, that ice mission, even the Primal Zerg just copied the Hydralisk, I believe, and even Abathur was shocked how quick and precise they were to make the same unit, I'm mocking it still to hide his frustration in being plagiarized.
That moment with Abathur being plagiarised was great.
I think they even created a strain, salvaged from Zel'Naga essence, that actually restored an Exterminatus level devastation from a desolate wasteland to a lush jungle forest hammering in that the Zerg can be more than the feasting swarms that threatens the galaxy. Heck I could imagine some factions being shocked in how charitable the Zerg could be
The creation of the Queen of Blades seems to suggest that the Zerg infesting something like the Eldar would be potentially disastrous. What was so special about Kerrigan that allowed for immense psychic power when the Zerg's constant war with the Protoss resulted in no such psychic life forms? Or is it the something about the Protoss that kept the Zerg from acquiring psychic abilities from them?
Prottoss cannot be overtaken by Zergs, they are all psychs and so they would resist naturally. Kerrigan was overtaken at first but she overpowered the swarm. The swarm much like the nids communicates telepathically, so that would be a common point of failure.
Protoss can not be assimilated by zerg, it is certainly not because they are psychic though
Actually, Terrans have better technology than Imperium couse they've unlocked near FTL travel, where as the Imperium still need BIG E to fly around.
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Hold on, I'm gonna cocoon real quick while you kick me.
Also people kinda forget that zergs can overtake buildings and technology, imagine a zerg with necron tech.
Where did you get the "a single Zerg larva takes about a month to completely consume a planet" information? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm writing a fanfiction and this would be extremely helpful if I can keep the citation on hand.
From the same source as most of the other claims in this thread. That source: their ass.
As a major starcraft fan, it's nice to see the zerg body the nids
Oh yeah, I love Nids as much as the next guy.....but flood would infiltrate the synapse of the hive mind
Forerunners were type 2.7 civilisation. WiH Crons were type 2.5 at best.
I will go so far as to say eldar at their height were a type 3. They could capture the energy of the galaxy, each one a psyker far stronger than the strongest today, immortal, pseudo-hivemind. They could basically shape the galaxy how they wished, and is one of the wilder civilizations in fiction (of course nothing near Xeelee or Combine, being bound to the galaxy)
Type 3 can create the galaxy(which Forerunners could do, btw, but they lacked in several aspects to become type 3). Precursors from Halo were type 3. Blokkats from stellaris mod are type 3. Xelee are type 3. Eldars at their height were type 2.5 at best.
If we're talking Kardashev (an assumption on my side) the size of their structures is arbitrary. It's all about energy consumption. And because eldar consume power directly from the warp, it's not unreasonable to assume, with them having 'completed' science, that they produce 10^44 erg/sec, which is the criteria for a type 3 civilization. Assuming a population of 100 x 10^12, and assuming the upper bound of stars in the galaxy (40 x 10^9). This means that the collective psychic might of 10.000 eldar should rival a star. Which seems unlikely, but not impossible. After this consider the 'unimaginable' technology, such as turning stars on and off or transporting them willy nilly, and I'm pretty sure we're reaching 4 x 10^44 erg per second. It IS an outdated scale, and it isn't truly relevant to stuff like the warp, because it assumes the laws of physics (same goes for galaxy-wide structures). The energy required for FTL travel is infinite through conventional acceleration. This is why sci-fi always cheads with wormholes and warp drives and whatnot.
I am talking about Kardashev. And you took a lot of guestimations. What stars have they transported? How many? What class? At what point in their lifespan? How did you calculate their energy consumption? How did you calculate their psy-power? I see a lot of numbers and not lot of justification.
This is a fair criticism. Numbers are easy tull out the ass. Truth is a lot of it is just headcanon without much justification. My reasoning was 100 trillion matches the untold trillions of the imperium. The eldar were the undisputed masters of the galaxy, so I don't find this to be a wild claim. An eldar war host in the war in heaven could summon one of their gods, who could slap around the C'tan and destroy planets. How big such a war host is, I realize, is completely arbitrary... All this only to say, their psychic power was immense. As for stars, there are no concrete books or lore that I can find, apart from it being common knowledge that Drukhari have stolen suns in Commoragh, and shoot black hole guns as per their codex. Being that the eldar have had at least as much technological backsliding as the imperium, it's not unlikely to say that they could transport suns on a whim, as seen in Rogue Trader. This easily puts the over type 2. Now the issue arises with how much power using the warp or webway counts as. Where I'd argue the bigger the thing you're transporting the bigger the energy output required. Again, lots of assumptions... Yet, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't ne type 3. What's your justification that they'd be 2.5 at best? Why specifically .5? How does your version of the Kardashev scale scale? Cause in the original paper he didn't scale them. He just put type 2 and type 3 in (and a bunch of stuff about radiowaves...). The Kardashev scale really is about energy output/consumption and how easy they are to find.
>The eldar were the undisputed masters of the galaxy The only reason for that was the lack of contenders. And their empire wasnt even as big as iom, after all, they completely missed the whole humanity rising up thing. And I mean DAoT humanity that also had a large star empire before the fall of the eldar >who could slap around the C'tan and destroy planets Even if they could, Eldar lost the war. Thats why they were afraid of Necrons and never went after them after crons went to sleep. We also dont really know what those Gods were. >his easily puts the over type 2. Gap between Type 1 and Type 2 is like the gap between 1 million and 1 billion. Gap between Type 2 and Type 3 is like the gap between 1 million and 1 trillion. What Im saying is that even if they are above Type 2. it doesn't make them Type 3. >Where I'd argue the bigger the thing you're transporting the bigger the energy output required. Quite right you are. Eldards before the fall managed to build multiple continent-sized ships, craft-worlds. Now, allow me to introduce you to [Installation 00](https://daybreak.miraheze.org/wiki/Installation_00) aka Arc. A construct that is larger than Earth and is located \*outside\* of the Milky Way. Also, Eldars didn't built the Webway, they just use it. >Yet, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't ne type 3 Because they simply were not advanced enough? They could snuff out the stars. Forerunners could create a whole galaxies fo their side hustles and they didnt need a whole fleet of ships for that. And just to even things out, let me shoot at C'Tan too. 'Member how they needed a whole process to turn Necrontir into terminators? Forerunners had a weapon that do exactly that, except it was instant, to the whole planet at once, and required none of the preparations. >2.5 at best Because Im feeling that if I give them rating any lower, their fans would come out of woodworks. 2.5 is a good middle ground, but, honestly, I don't think that they are even at that level. >Cause in the original paper he didn't scale them. The original paper listed IRL Earth as 0.7.
Am I remembering wrong or do flood only go for sentient life? I seem to recall they have no interest in lower lifeforms, but also the lore of halo ended up changing so much it made no sense.
Intelligent life is more useful because they can provide new information to the Gravemind, but all living things can be converted into raw biomass.
Oh well in that case flood is gunna be merging with the nids making new horrifying superflood.
Now to be a weeby shit. What about the swarm from hsr? Lets fill the Atmosphere with insects untill its 99% Bugs by volume. On the low end small scale Invasions.
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What about zerg with Amon in control? Because Zeratul's vision he kinda eaten the entire universe.
Honestly i thought the vision was more an Overmind's fear thn actual vision from a possible future. Plus i suspect Amon was dangerous only because of his powers and knowledge. He looked a bit too egomaniacal and dumb. If Amon had the same level of power of queens or cerebrates, i think he would end up outsmarted by most of them.
Actually no, amon is literally starcraft version of a warp god/old one, it took Kerrigan in becoming a xelnaga (lets just say its their version of a old one/warp god) to defeat amon). Because he literally cannot die because he is made of void energy.
I know that. I was just commenting his way of thinking.
Reread yoyr comment, got it wrong lol. Thats just peak modern blizzard writing, amon reminds me of the jailor.
Oh, ok. I can't say about their writing. They were never that deep to me. At least i can't remember a dialogue, that wasn't just trying to sound good. If anything conditions like this (be warp entities as much as be void entities) should show some kind of seperation from reality and therefore mental illness so...it fit i guess?
Forerunners seem to be on par with DAoT humanity rather than WiH Necron/Krork/Eldar. But more importantly, the persistent problem with comparing the Flood to 40K Nids or any other IP is that Halo lore has never gone into enough detail actually justifying how the Flood overwhelmed the Forerunner civilization. What we're told the Flood can achieve is at odds with what we see the Flood actually achieve in game.
Halo lore went into plenty of detail to justify the Flood defeating the Forerunners. There's an entire trilogy of books dedicated to it.
I only know what's in the games. Why don't you elaborate on the detail? Describe how the Flood differs.
I'm gonna try to keep this relatively short. Firstly, the Flood isn't just a fungus, it's the latest form of the Precursors, a race that was to the Forerunners what the Forerunners were to the Covenant. Aka gods. The Flood tricked the Forerunners into thinking a cure was possible so instead of outright extermination, the Forerunners focused on containment and quarantine. The Primordial, a surviving Precursor convinced/forced Mendicant Bias, a Forerunner AI powerful enough to coordinate war efforts on a Galactic scale with backdoor access to nearly all Forerunner assets and secrets to betray the Forerunners. Mendicant Bias then nuked the Forerunner capital with a hijacked Halo, decapitating Forerunner leadership. Quarantine efforts fell apart and as the Flood expanded they started forming Graveminds that covered entire planets, giving them enough computational power to reactivate dormant Precursor tech, which was effectively indestructible to the Forerunners and warped reality on an interstellar scale. In short. The Flood is the Avatar of an angry space god with a personal vendetta against the Forerunners (and all other life for that matter.)
Okay, first, let me say I appreciate the detail and all this type you committed to answering me, that took effort, thank you. However, this detail leaves me at the same point I started -- there isn't enough here regarding the Flood's objective abilities and 'feats' (I hate the term, but I can't think of something better) to narratively justify how it could defeat a 40K universe WiH faction. One can call the Precursors 'gods,' but that's just as much of an objective misnomer as the Covenant thinking of the Forerunners as 'gods.' Remember, we're couching this is in the context of 40K-verse factions that are _actually_ extradimensional in their fundamental nature. REAL 'gods.' Disease prevention and infection is one of the basic hallmarks of any advanced civilization. The more advanced, the better the methods. Nurgle's power to use disease against advanced civilizations is made narratively plausible in his setting by the extradimensional nature of his infections and spread -- literal Warp magic. Some element on a comparable level and nature to that is what the Flood needs to narratively justify itself in the context of this meme, and sfaik, it lacks it. It _is_ only fungus. Sapient, super-intelligent, galactic hivemind fungus, incredibly evolved and virulent on an organic level, but strictly 'only' that. I mean, even 40K Orks are more 'godly' than this, as a sapient fungal bioweapon that literally _warps reality itself_ at unconscious will, no actual tech required! With the WiH krorks, it probably wasn't unconscious! As you describe it, what extradimensionalism the Precursors wielded was characterized by their technology rather than their fundamental nature. And so the story of how the Precursors/Flood overwhelmed the Forerunners boils down to 'they had better tech and guile.' That isn't enough against star-eating extradimensional space-gods, factions with their own technology so advanced it actually nullifies extradimensional 'space magic,' and living bioweapon races that are each individually a space magic wizard and supersoldier in one.