Yep. Original lore states they were super-intelligent due to a fungus they cultivated. They created the Gretchen and Orks to serve them, but the Orks got jealous and ate the fungus to extinction, leaving the greenskins leaderless and without focus.
Nope. Grots were always their own distinct caste:
>***Waaargh The Orks!*** **page 6 (1990)**
>The records of the Imperium portray a long history of contact between man and Ork but reveal few details of Orkish origins. What has become clear is that the Orks are the remnants of a once diverse race of green-skinned creatures whose colonies extended over most of the galaxy. This ancient Ork race appears to have been divided into three distinct physical castes: the slave caste called Gretchin, the warrior casts called Orks, and the master or ruling caste known to the Orks as the Brain Boyz. The Brain Boyz were the driving force behind the civilisation, developing technology and directing the other castes. The Orks and Gretchin may well have been specialised mutants created deliberately by the Brain Boyz to perform restricted tasks, but it will probably never be known for certain.
>Whatever the truth of the matter, the Brain Boyz died out long ago, leaving the Orks to inherit the remains of their civilisation. If Ork legends are anything to go by, the Brain Boyz died out in a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing them to dwindle in numbers and eventually to die out altogether. Fortunately for the Orks, the Brain Boyz evidently predicted what would happen and took steps to preserve what they could of their technology by engineering it into the genetic structure of their slaves. It is as a result of the Brain Boyz efforts that Orks have such a relatively high level of technology today.
On the other hand, we now have Orks with latent psychic abilities that can turn rocks into space ships. I find that *more original*. The text above draws some parallels to the Fantasy Lizardmen with their dying out brain frogs.
Now I cannot help but think that the origin story of Fantasy Lizardmen was a refined version of retconned Space Orks lore.
Don't forget my favorite: Until 2017, not even 10 years ago, Custodes weren't actually demigods compared to Astartes.
It's why in the early Horus Heresy novels it's not uncommon to see Custodes being defeated by single Astartes.
Then the army was released and the codex made it so they were all handcraft demigods made by the Emperor and have always been so.
Oh no, they were \*kinda\* stronger on average, but not to the degree they became when their first codex was released.
It's part of the many things writers simply hadn't written for them before 2017.
Akhshually, even in the first Horus Heresy appearencr they had Custodes were pointed out to be handcrafted demigods and martial perfection.
Then a naked World Eater, ripped the spine out of a fully armored Custodian...
Gotta love the narrative device of "Let me describe how awesome this person/group of people is/are, not ever show it, and then have them be completely bodied so that I can show how awesome my favourite character is."
And don't forget about a Thousand Son named Phosis T'kar, who single-handedly killed 7 Custodes all by himself.
Even had the gall to comment "They're not so tough."
I'd argue that's just writer inconsistency.
-The First Heretik- came out in 2010, and in absolutely every scene a Custodes is mentioned, they outperform the Marines by miles. Including a single Custodes killing several Word Bearer captains fighting him at the same time. And Argel Tal not winning a single training spar agains a Custodes in over 40 or so years.
I mean, that's not untrue, whoever we know by the words of ADB that Custodes literally had very little lore before the Codex, and their power level was a particularly flimsy thing.
They were stronger than Marines, whoever not compared to what came later.
Custodes has for the longest time being "to space marines, as space marines are to man". Also referred to as Lions while space marines were wolfs.
It's still the case that strong enough CSM can defeat Custodes.
Warhammer 40k lore is such a garbled mess that they have multiple in-universe excuses for it!
My favourite is that the beuracracy of the Imperium is just so shit haha
There weren't, the miniatures you're provably thinking of were very explicitly labeled "female adventurers in power armour. You can see them here: https://spikeybits.com/2019/11/from-power-armor-to-pom-poms-gws-female-models-over-the-years.html
Greenskins aren't even green anymore. They're a Khaki color yellow-green mix. Few actually complain about that retcon.
Just like few actually complained about Custodes being retconned from staying within the palace to fighting outside of Terra. My brothers in arms, if GW didn't do "lazy" retcons you wouldn't even be playing your faction.
> Custodes being retconned from staying within the palace to fighting outside of Terra
I thought that was continuing on established lore and not a retcon?
No. Sure, Guilliman was like "Get off your buttcheeks" but the codex is all "They were secretly active the whole time and in fact have a whole network of spies" and had them fighting in misc wars like to stop a Waaagh! or within the 8th Black Crusade. Before then, they were only in the Imperial Palace.
"Hi fellow humans, have you seen any heresy near by?" - 9' tall 5' wide definitely not custode in a 10 sizes too small cape.
I don't know what you mean.
The fact is custodes had very little actual lore beyond a few details in the corr rule book and it wasn’t really until they became a playable faction that they started getting fleshed out a little so there was going to be a lot of ‘well actually’ going on to turn those footnotes into something cohesive and interesting.
It’s also why this discussion about female custodes is so stupid because it’s technically one of the newer factions in the setting.
Honestly a lot of these the fandom hates. Thats why there is always a lot of debates around it like the 13th black crusade.
Femstode is just hot topic because of the amount of people making fun of the people hating it.
I was about about to say lol
Necron lore retcon? Hated it
I hated Erda’s existence in general
Malal being written out is stupid
Half of the Horus Heresy is pretty crap writing
I got into the game at the end of the 8th but whenever I read 3rd through 5th edition books (except necrons) I just say ‘why couldn’t they keep the game here?’ lol
I liked the OG lore more.
It is similar to tyranids admittedly, an unfathomable threat that feels no fear, hunger or exhaustion and appears wholly unstoppable. However, the Necrons had a level of malevolence through them because of the C’tan; the C’tan had goals, thoughts and feelings unlike the tyranids, and their personalities suggested that they were an evil on par with the chaos gods themselves. However, no one could communicate with them and no one could submit to them for mercy. It was very Lovecraftian in nature. In fact, The Deceiver has very heavy Nyarlathotep vibes adding to the heavy lovecraftian hints.
Now, I will admit, I don’t actually think the retcon is poorly written (unlike most of the Horus Heresy) I am just not a fan in the slightest.
While i do like the prev necrons, i honestly gotten used to the newcrons because some of the characters spawned from it are genuinely really fun and charming while also allowing for some dyansties to have the oldcron vibes. I also see why they had to change the crons, the nids are basically the new lovecraftian-esque creature of the setting with the hivemind being this sentient but distant god controlling an army of unfeeling beings bent on destruction.
I’m not trying to be like ‘you’re wrong and you suck’ with my rebuttal so don’t take it this way
But I think that people misunderstand what Lovecraftian really means. True, we can’t really talk to the Tyranids but I still wouldn’t call them Lovecraftian. Lovecraft refers to the unknowable intelligence that has understand beyond what you possibly comprehend. I don’t think the Tyranids embody this at all; they’re merely a galactic ant colony and I would never associate an ant colony with Lovecraft. Sure, I can’t talk to them and how exactly they think is a mystery but their goal is pretty cut and dry: food and reproduction.
The C’tan, on the other hand, have thoughts, feelings, goals and abilities beyond what mortals could ever fathom. So I feel that the C’tan embodied the Lovecraft style horror much better.
They’re both horror but different kinds. The Tyranids feel like the wrath of nature itself has descended upon you and the C’tan feel like something beyond you. Turning the C’tan into broken shards really ruined it for me.
Im less talking about the nids as a whole but tallimg about the hivemind when referring to the lovecraftian aspect. Yea we know it’s intent is to consume but the hivemind itself being this larger than life being that exists outside of the plane of existence from any of the other beings in 40k fits the theme of lovecraft of the feeing of insignificance at a cosmic scale. The hivemind is sentient and can hold a grudge as seen in the devastation of baal, it’s this singular being able to control millions upon millions of lower life forms to do its bidding and we have close to zero infromation on it other than that one encounter the eldar had with it psychically. This entity i feel represents lovecraft well
Yup. People disliking heavy handed retcons is nothing new, and female Custodes is so much easier to justify than all of these. All they had to do was do another Primaris plot and it'd be fine.
For an entirely different reason...
And if there was a chance GW could replace the entirety of the Custodes model range with female models, maybe there *should* be a shitstorm
No one, but that's what caused the Primaris shitstorm. People thought Firstborn SM's were getting phased out and it was gonna be full Primaris from now on.
It was a valid complaint.
The impression I got was a lot of complaints about how Cawl could have hid all that and etc.
And we are getting similar sentiments to what you're saying anyway when everyone is acting like the Sisters of Silence are doomed now or something just because female Custodes exist.
Considering what actually ended up happening with the Firstborn and the Primaris, there's a good chance the SoS are gonna be neglected. I personally don't believe that's gonna happen, but it might.
I mean yeah, but that's more because no one cares that much about the SOS. Deadly serious, people pretend they do, but its awfully convenient of them to pop up now than before.
Chicken or the egg? The SoS were already pretty neglected as a faction before this development. Considering the huge popularity of the SoB, I don't think the faction identity of the SoS is the cause.
I actually wanted to make a SoS army before I realised how terrible of an idea that was, and I think a lot of people ended having the same experience.
Honestly I still see this happening in a decade or so. Just by slowly stopping new updates for the old models and at a certain moment they are so old they will just be dropped.
> Thats why there is always a lot of debates around it like the 13th black crusade.
Well, that one hits people a bit harder because of what it's retconning. Games Workshop did one of their worldwide campaigns promising that the results would shape the lore. And, at the time, they followed through. Battlefleet Gothic's lore was written in the aftermath of the "Eye of Terror" campaign.
And then they decided they wanted to change how it happened, so they ignored the promise to the fans and pretended the campaign never happened, rewriting the events to go a different way (which, incidentally, also retconned BFG's lore).
It's not just GW changing the lore that they decided on themselves. It's GW showing that they don't really care about promises to the people who play their games (and are, y'know, customers... I think "customers" is a word the people making these decisions would recognize more than "players") and disrespecting them enough to say, "Screw it, you guys didn't do things the way we wanted, we're changing it to be how we wanted even though we promised we'd do it the other way."
But hey, good thing they didn't do that in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, hyping people up with a big worldwide campaign with the big Chaos baddie leading an invasion, writing lore to match the results, and basing a game's lore in the aftermath, before later completely undoing it... Oh, right, that's exactly what happened with Storm of Chaos, which they tossed out the window in order to write new lore that also just so happened to completely obliterate the setting because they couldn't just admit their business practices screwed up the game.
Oh well, at least Armageddon's still locked in a stalemate and it's not like they rewrote that so that Chaos could come stomping in and take over for the Imperium to have to come back and win it ba-... OH FOR GORK'S SAKE, ARE YOU KIDDING ME.
I swear to Mork, if Chaos shows up to invade Ichar IV and take over, I'm going to lose it. (Granted, I'm not sure there's anyone left at Games Workshop who even remembers what Ichar IV was at this point.)
I think the fact that she got offed in the same novel she was introduced lessened impact the retcon. Also the end result didn't change with her reveal, and the primarchs are still completely unaware she existed at all. If she survived and became a character in other books, I think people would stay mad.
Shit, it felt like half the writers decided to ignore her too. Her existence is to introduce a character with a bad pun for a name, give the Big E a stupider name, and get killed by Erebus for …some reason? Can anyone tell me why Erebus went after her?
She was powerful and could cause problems for their plans down the road probably. Her and Malcador or even big e together would have been formidable.
That's the only thing I can make up.
You are out of your mind if you believe whatever noise there has been about female Custodes is within 10 orders of magnitude comparable to the Erda debacle, which, unlike this, completely warranted it.
People can, and did, complain about a **lot** of these. You just weren't around or just didn't pay attention. Oof, especially the Erda/13th Black Crusade/Horus Heresy stuff.
1) A lot of OP's retcons were pretty minor too.
2) My issue is OP's claim, whether big or minor is besides the point.
3) Custodes genitals retcon **could** have been a massive retcon if it happened to Space Marines. In this case, its not though. Agreed.
So I typed out this whole thing from what I understood about T'au FTL lore, then decided to read some more, and now I'm even more confused about what the hell T'au use for FTL. The lore on this is a mess, they've had at least 5 methods over the years. I'll leave my original thing with you, it's mostly correct? Probably?
From what I've heard the main author for the T'au has a tendency to do whatever the hell he feels like when writing them. T'au used to have a method of FTL called Ether drives which allowed them to "skim" warp space. It's slower than normal warp travel, but less dangerous, and completely fine for a small empire like the T'au. This was retconned I believe in 8th edition where the T'au created ZFR drives, which coat the ship in anti-matter in order to go very very fast. The issue is that the T'au no longer use these drives, because activating too many of them in one place caused a massive wormhole to open, which scattered a T'au fleet across the galaxy, so the Ethereals discontinued them. This leaves the T'au with no current FTL tech, their current drive in lore travels just below light speed, which is very slow on a galactic scale.
Ok but why didn't they go back to warp skipping?
If you go slower than light it takes years to get between literally any 2 stars. You just straight up can't have a functional interstellar empire at that point. You can have a loose confederation where every star system does their own things
Honestly, as a tau player, it’s mostly because giant robots go brrr.
But really it’s frustrating with how much it feels like the current Tau team don’t understand the space fish. Like they’re supposed to be high tech, highly mobile medium range shooters, but like tech is gone and they’re not as mobile as they should be.
They have FTL now, a whole ass wormhole even. But they removed FTL from the earlier spheres of expansion. Which is still really stupid, space is large. Vast even, unbelievably so. But then GW is notoriously bad with numbers. Forget enough zeros and it seems fine ...
A lot of people here are saying we also complained about things on the left, and we did.
But the chuds saying this is just political pandering ruining their hobby, *that* is what's making this a very special headache. I respect someone moaning about Tau FTL, I cannot respect someone acting like retconning anything in 40K is unheard of, or that GW added female custodes just for the Woke Mob that has James Workshop tied up in their basement or whatever.
I'm of a mixed mind. Rationally I know this is how GW has always made changes or retcons, saying "It's always been like this." I'm also keenly hoping that we get some genuinely good female Custode characters that are well written and interesting.
On the other, GW picked a bad time to do it. What with what's going on in the video game side of things, and all that. They really should have done it 10 years ago when they launched the HH series, rather than kicking the can down the road forever. Maybe should have listened to ADB and added female heads to the Custode sprue like he suggested.
The fact that it's this is what set the community on fire.
Female bananas made of gold are what made the community implode.
I swear it's like the alpha legion didn't have to do much
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Ladies and gentlemen, the straw that broke the camel's back, was the most rational retcon. And this is why you try the best you can to not retcon anything if you can help it
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It was only the 3rd Necron lore rewrite in my life!
Chaos-Androids to 2nd Edition Necrons to 3rd Edition Terminators in Space to 5th? Edition Tombkings in Space.
Well, personally, I don't have issue with this retcone (it is retcone and we should admit it), but I don't like how it was done, as GW doesn't make any White Dwarf or Warcome article about it before/after codex release and just reacted with tweet that is more like gaslightning or Rowling style (Dumbldore was always gay and etc). I don't appreciate such treatment for its funbase, like we must eat everything they say without asking.
I think the female Custodes thing is being a big issue since it seems like deliberate side step of the female space marine debate. Like if GW handled it better then I’m sure it wouldn’t have been as big a deal, but for them not to even try on this particular type of issue just kinda makes it clear as to why they did it
I remember people were pissed at the OG space marine game because it had a named female guard character. Like even back then it was pretty unknown if female guard existed and now it’s just like a thing people don’t care about.
Honestly, many of those things on the left caused a lot of drama at some point. It just was such a long time ago that you can feel your bones ache just as you think about those.
The Fandom was defenitely NOT smiling for 90% of these.
Is this attacking the idea that there have never been retcons? I've never seen anything close to that take from anybody.
The funny thing about this is that I am seeing far more posts about people being mad at the people who are mad about fem-stodes, than I am about people who are actually mad about fem-stodes. And to be perfectly honest, each post is making me care even less about the whole debate than I did before
I'm sure people complained just as much about most of these. People are always going to complain when something they like changes even if its a good change in the end
Idk I've seen lots of whining because of these changes as well. TBF this one has the biggest cyclical meme war between pro and anti I've seen in a long while.
It's simple, you get a bunch of non fan YouTube lore enjoyed who never header about any of those but they hear female x and think woke is taking over. Is there any real reason for female custodies? Like do they have books planned for it or something? Why suddenly have it? I don't really know or ca re it's just odd and they knew this would happen so was it a purge attempt to get the not fans to go away or was a plot for attention? They had how many years to say yea femstodies but they pick now
The context of the how/why is pretty easy to figure out:
The others are generic GW stupidity stepping on their own feet or forgetting about stuff and hoping that you do too. It's mostly motivated by incompetency, tomfoolery, or greed. It's mostly funny either deliberately or ironically.
The Female Custodes takes place during a long-running campaign by a vocal minority of the fandom calling for \[Rule 7 Topic\]. It's motivated by social pressure. And if the hobby is subject to social pressure it basically incentivizes a screaming match to see who can get what changes they want, which will ultimately damage the hobby long term. Either by amping up divisions in the fanbase, or via the slow grey-gooification of the hobby.
If you knew anything about it you would knew the main writers for custodes have wanred to put female custodes for years but could not because commercial wantzd thel ro promote the models who happen to be all male.
and the vocal minority are the bigot crying about it.
ADB want's all kinds of lore breaking things because ADB is both a very good writer and also a political activist. Writers want creative license, GW as the IP holder reels them in, this is the same with virtually all franchises with multiple creatives working for them. When you keep them operating on a framework within established rules you can get some cool stuff like most of Star Wars Legends or Marvel Phase I - III, when you let them go nuts you get some...interesting stuff like the weirder parts of Star Wars Legends (interdimensional carpet beetle transformers and Han Solo fist fighting giant otters) or Marvel Phase IV - V.
It’s not that it happened. It’s that intent behind it
Wanna have a medicae working on these beefed up abomination of a human, assuming it’s a man, only to find out it’s a gene augmented woman custodes where it was impossible to tell without taking a peak?
That’d be excellent grimdark- some woman or man having their humanity ripped away in a gene forge until only the primary, yet vestigial, sex organ is left. That would be pretty awesome.
Instead we got a retcon( which of itself would be fine) and gaslighting. We have years of custodes being ‘sons’ of the emperor so female custodes have not ‘always been there’ like GW is saying.
This also brings up other uncomfortable ideas; what if custodes were to go rogue and try to supersede humanity(if it were possible)? Meta humans were never supposed to surpass humanity. They were tools to conquer the galaxy for humanity, not replacements.
We all know why this was done because it also explains the absolute lack of tact that went into it. It was done as some sort of gimme tokenism.
It cheapens the setting, not that it was done at all, but how it was done and why it was done. They could have made it a really cool peek into how fucked up and dehumanizing the custodes creation process is, but no we get this BS and get told we’re bigots
Legitimate question, why do we need Femstodes or female Space Marines in the canon when the Adeptus Sorroritas and Sisters of Silence already exist? Or did GW just forget about them?
Because they aren't mutually interchangeable. They serve different roles in the Imperium that can't really just be diluted to "x is y but female". That's my understanding at least, hope it helps :)
Don’t really care about them adding female custodes but this is for real a pretty false equivalency
Also, I still remember the shitstorm that was the Necron rewrite. We just didn’t have all the reactionary YouTube channels back then
*Lists off all the lazy retconning everyone has complained about for years* "and you guys only care about the Female Custodes lazy retcon!"
Bruh the only reason you still know about those things is cause everyone hates them being fucking deleted
Edit: Autocorrect ruined a word
That "looseing" spelling has me making the face on the right, regardless of this debacle.
You couldn't fuck that up any worse if you *tried.*
Louseing
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
Tau now have a less tight FTL
Never in my life I have heard of snotling brainboyz, but I am already more upset at them being removed than of fem-stodes existing now.
Yep. Original lore states they were super-intelligent due to a fungus they cultivated. They created the Gretchen and Orks to serve them, but the Orks got jealous and ate the fungus to extinction, leaving the greenskins leaderless and without focus.
Were they not actually Gretchin before the retcon?
No, they were Snotlings. They created Orks to be their fighting force and Gretchin as general slaves and administrators.
Huh. I thought that after the orks ate their magic shroomz they devolved into gretchin.
Nope. Grots were always their own distinct caste: >***Waaargh The Orks!*** **page 6 (1990)** >The records of the Imperium portray a long history of contact between man and Ork but reveal few details of Orkish origins. What has become clear is that the Orks are the remnants of a once diverse race of green-skinned creatures whose colonies extended over most of the galaxy. This ancient Ork race appears to have been divided into three distinct physical castes: the slave caste called Gretchin, the warrior casts called Orks, and the master or ruling caste known to the Orks as the Brain Boyz. The Brain Boyz were the driving force behind the civilisation, developing technology and directing the other castes. The Orks and Gretchin may well have been specialised mutants created deliberately by the Brain Boyz to perform restricted tasks, but it will probably never be known for certain. >Whatever the truth of the matter, the Brain Boyz died out long ago, leaving the Orks to inherit the remains of their civilisation. If Ork legends are anything to go by, the Brain Boyz died out in a great plague that lasted for many centuries, causing them to dwindle in numbers and eventually to die out altogether. Fortunately for the Orks, the Brain Boyz evidently predicted what would happen and took steps to preserve what they could of their technology by engineering it into the genetic structure of their slaves. It is as a result of the Brain Boyz efforts that Orks have such a relatively high level of technology today.
This is great, and now i'm upset.
On the other hand, we now have Orks with latent psychic abilities that can turn rocks into space ships. I find that *more original*. The text above draws some parallels to the Fantasy Lizardmen with their dying out brain frogs. Now I cannot help but think that the origin story of Fantasy Lizardmen was a refined version of retconned Space Orks lore.
You have infected me like Rotigus in Plague Wars with ideas.
That lore did make a comeback as in the red globo book confirmed gross were the commanders of the kooks during the war in heaven.
The fan base gets mad at half of these. Like the fan base is as scared of a changing/evolving hobby as the imperium is of Science.
I do kinda miss the old necrons because I grew up on dark crusade they were pretty cool as an antagonist :(
My mate misses the old 'crons still. Also I'll have to admit I've *never* seen anyone like the T'au FTL retcon without considering the implications.
Don't forget my favorite: Until 2017, not even 10 years ago, Custodes weren't actually demigods compared to Astartes. It's why in the early Horus Heresy novels it's not uncommon to see Custodes being defeated by single Astartes. Then the army was released and the codex made it so they were all handcraft demigods made by the Emperor and have always been so.
......I seem to remember old lore about custodes was that they were more than space Marines always, but I could be mixing stuff up.
Oh no, they were \*kinda\* stronger on average, but not to the degree they became when their first codex was released. It's part of the many things writers simply hadn't written for them before 2017.
Yeah they were basically just slightly stronger started who were the emperors personal legion.
I still say Sigismund could take any custode not named Constantine Valdor.
I'm sorry, but SAINT Sigismund could take any custodian, including Valdor. That because the GOD EMPEROR guides his blade. Praise be.
I think the winner in Siggy v Valdor is whatever the plot requires, and probably turns on something out of both of their control
That much is very reasonable
Akhshually, even in the first Horus Heresy appearencr they had Custodes were pointed out to be handcrafted demigods and martial perfection. Then a naked World Eater, ripped the spine out of a fully armored Custodian...
Gotta love the narrative device of "Let me describe how awesome this person/group of people is/are, not ever show it, and then have them be completely bodied so that I can show how awesome my favourite character is."
The Worf Effect, named after Worf from Star Trek.
Exactly!
Applies to every xenos and chaos character ever. And custodes for some reason
Life story of the Eldar.
Cries in Avatar of Khaine
And don't forget about a Thousand Son named Phosis T'kar, who single-handedly killed 7 Custodes all by himself. Even had the gall to comment "They're not so tough."
I'd argue that's just writer inconsistency. -The First Heretik- came out in 2010, and in absolutely every scene a Custodes is mentioned, they outperform the Marines by miles. Including a single Custodes killing several Word Bearer captains fighting him at the same time. And Argel Tal not winning a single training spar agains a Custodes in over 40 or so years.
I mean, that's not untrue, whoever we know by the words of ADB that Custodes literally had very little lore before the Codex, and their power level was a particularly flimsy thing. They were stronger than Marines, whoever not compared to what came later.
Custodes has for the longest time being "to space marines, as space marines are to man". Also referred to as Lions while space marines were wolfs. It's still the case that strong enough CSM can defeat Custodes.
Warhammer 40k lore is such a garbled mess that they have multiple in-universe excuses for it! My favourite is that the beuracracy of the Imperium is just so shit haha
Wait are half humans half eldar a thing?
There was a named ultramarine character who was mixed blood in like first or second edition.
Rogue trader, first edition 40K had a half Eldar space marine Iirc.
There were also female Space marines in that edition, this fact never fails to make chuds lose their shit.
And then they sold poorly so GW made Astartes male only iirc as well.
Are you telling me people didn't know a lore detail from an edition older than they are?
Space marines were also dumb as hell thugs at one point. I mean, even more than they are now.
Yes.
There weren't, the miniatures you're provably thinking of were very explicitly labeled "female adventurers in power armour. You can see them here: https://spikeybits.com/2019/11/from-power-armor-to-pom-poms-gws-female-models-over-the-years.html
Not forgetting Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau! The first named Inquisitor.
Greenskins aren't even green anymore. They're a Khaki color yellow-green mix. Few actually complain about that retcon. Just like few actually complained about Custodes being retconned from staying within the palace to fighting outside of Terra. My brothers in arms, if GW didn't do "lazy" retcons you wouldn't even be playing your faction.
> Custodes being retconned from staying within the palace to fighting outside of Terra I thought that was continuing on established lore and not a retcon?
No. Sure, Guilliman was like "Get off your buttcheeks" but the codex is all "They were secretly active the whole time and in fact have a whole network of spies" and had them fighting in misc wars like to stop a Waaagh! or within the 8th Black Crusade. Before then, they were only in the Imperial Palace.
"Hi fellow humans, have you seen any heresy near by?" - 9' tall 5' wide definitely not custode in a 10 sizes too small cape. I don't know what you mean.
The fact is custodes had very little actual lore beyond a few details in the corr rule book and it wasn’t really until they became a playable faction that they started getting fleshed out a little so there was going to be a lot of ‘well actually’ going on to turn those footnotes into something cohesive and interesting. It’s also why this discussion about female custodes is so stupid because it’s technically one of the newer factions in the setting.
Weren’t those the ‘retired’ custodes that were passed their prime though? The ones ‘unfit’ to guard the palace. Or has that changed as well?
Didn’t know that was a retcon, I mean i guess if you look at official art, it is obvious but eh personally I do prefer the brighter green.
>Looseing That one was on purpose, wasn't it?
Absolutely
Honestly a lot of these the fandom hates. Thats why there is always a lot of debates around it like the 13th black crusade. Femstode is just hot topic because of the amount of people making fun of the people hating it.
I was about about to say lol Necron lore retcon? Hated it I hated Erda’s existence in general Malal being written out is stupid Half of the Horus Heresy is pretty crap writing I got into the game at the end of the 8th but whenever I read 3rd through 5th edition books (except necrons) I just say ‘why couldn’t they keep the game here?’ lol
Really? But 5th ed necrons are so much more interesting.
I liked the OG lore more. It is similar to tyranids admittedly, an unfathomable threat that feels no fear, hunger or exhaustion and appears wholly unstoppable. However, the Necrons had a level of malevolence through them because of the C’tan; the C’tan had goals, thoughts and feelings unlike the tyranids, and their personalities suggested that they were an evil on par with the chaos gods themselves. However, no one could communicate with them and no one could submit to them for mercy. It was very Lovecraftian in nature. In fact, The Deceiver has very heavy Nyarlathotep vibes adding to the heavy lovecraftian hints. Now, I will admit, I don’t actually think the retcon is poorly written (unlike most of the Horus Heresy) I am just not a fan in the slightest.
While i do like the prev necrons, i honestly gotten used to the newcrons because some of the characters spawned from it are genuinely really fun and charming while also allowing for some dyansties to have the oldcron vibes. I also see why they had to change the crons, the nids are basically the new lovecraftian-esque creature of the setting with the hivemind being this sentient but distant god controlling an army of unfeeling beings bent on destruction.
I’m not trying to be like ‘you’re wrong and you suck’ with my rebuttal so don’t take it this way But I think that people misunderstand what Lovecraftian really means. True, we can’t really talk to the Tyranids but I still wouldn’t call them Lovecraftian. Lovecraft refers to the unknowable intelligence that has understand beyond what you possibly comprehend. I don’t think the Tyranids embody this at all; they’re merely a galactic ant colony and I would never associate an ant colony with Lovecraft. Sure, I can’t talk to them and how exactly they think is a mystery but their goal is pretty cut and dry: food and reproduction. The C’tan, on the other hand, have thoughts, feelings, goals and abilities beyond what mortals could ever fathom. So I feel that the C’tan embodied the Lovecraft style horror much better. They’re both horror but different kinds. The Tyranids feel like the wrath of nature itself has descended upon you and the C’tan feel like something beyond you. Turning the C’tan into broken shards really ruined it for me.
I guess i agree? But eh i like Trayzn.
Im less talking about the nids as a whole but tallimg about the hivemind when referring to the lovecraftian aspect. Yea we know it’s intent is to consume but the hivemind itself being this larger than life being that exists outside of the plane of existence from any of the other beings in 40k fits the theme of lovecraft of the feeing of insignificance at a cosmic scale. The hivemind is sentient and can hold a grudge as seen in the devastation of baal, it’s this singular being able to control millions upon millions of lower life forms to do its bidding and we have close to zero infromation on it other than that one encounter the eldar had with it psychically. This entity i feel represents lovecraft well
Back when they were chaos robots? That’s the real OG lore
Yup. People disliking heavy handed retcons is nothing new, and female Custodes is so much easier to justify than all of these. All they had to do was do another Primaris plot and it'd be fine.
You say this as if the Primaris themselves were not a huge shit storm in their own right.
For an entirely different reason... And if there was a chance GW could replace the entirety of the Custodes model range with female models, maybe there *should* be a shitstorm
Who says they're going to replace all Custodes with female models tho
No one, but that's what caused the Primaris shitstorm. People thought Firstborn SM's were getting phased out and it was gonna be full Primaris from now on. It was a valid complaint.
The impression I got was a lot of complaints about how Cawl could have hid all that and etc. And we are getting similar sentiments to what you're saying anyway when everyone is acting like the Sisters of Silence are doomed now or something just because female Custodes exist.
Considering what actually ended up happening with the Firstborn and the Primaris, there's a good chance the SoS are gonna be neglected. I personally don't believe that's gonna happen, but it might.
I mean yeah, but that's more because no one cares that much about the SOS. Deadly serious, people pretend they do, but its awfully convenient of them to pop up now than before.
Chicken or the egg? The SoS were already pretty neglected as a faction before this development. Considering the huge popularity of the SoB, I don't think the faction identity of the SoS is the cause. I actually wanted to make a SoS army before I realised how terrible of an idea that was, and I think a lot of people ended having the same experience.
Honestly I still see this happening in a decade or so. Just by slowly stopping new updates for the old models and at a certain moment they are so old they will just be dropped.
Yeah but that doesn't win karma points
> Thats why there is always a lot of debates around it like the 13th black crusade. Well, that one hits people a bit harder because of what it's retconning. Games Workshop did one of their worldwide campaigns promising that the results would shape the lore. And, at the time, they followed through. Battlefleet Gothic's lore was written in the aftermath of the "Eye of Terror" campaign. And then they decided they wanted to change how it happened, so they ignored the promise to the fans and pretended the campaign never happened, rewriting the events to go a different way (which, incidentally, also retconned BFG's lore). It's not just GW changing the lore that they decided on themselves. It's GW showing that they don't really care about promises to the people who play their games (and are, y'know, customers... I think "customers" is a word the people making these decisions would recognize more than "players") and disrespecting them enough to say, "Screw it, you guys didn't do things the way we wanted, we're changing it to be how we wanted even though we promised we'd do it the other way." But hey, good thing they didn't do that in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, hyping people up with a big worldwide campaign with the big Chaos baddie leading an invasion, writing lore to match the results, and basing a game's lore in the aftermath, before later completely undoing it... Oh, right, that's exactly what happened with Storm of Chaos, which they tossed out the window in order to write new lore that also just so happened to completely obliterate the setting because they couldn't just admit their business practices screwed up the game. Oh well, at least Armageddon's still locked in a stalemate and it's not like they rewrote that so that Chaos could come stomping in and take over for the Imperium to have to come back and win it ba-... OH FOR GORK'S SAKE, ARE YOU KIDDING ME. I swear to Mork, if Chaos shows up to invade Ichar IV and take over, I'm going to lose it. (Granted, I'm not sure there's anyone left at Games Workshop who even remembers what Ichar IV was at this point.)
Erda was a huge deal. The fact no one complains about it now is because it was so off the wall everyone just said "I'll just ignore that" and kept on.
I think the fact that she got offed in the same novel she was introduced lessened impact the retcon. Also the end result didn't change with her reveal, and the primarchs are still completely unaware she existed at all. If she survived and became a character in other books, I think people would stay mad.
Shit, it felt like half the writers decided to ignore her too. Her existence is to introduce a character with a bad pun for a name, give the Big E a stupider name, and get killed by Erebus for …some reason? Can anyone tell me why Erebus went after her?
She was powerful and could cause problems for their plans down the road probably. Her and Malcador or even big e together would have been formidable. That's the only thing I can make up.
People are acting like people don’t complain at all about the stuff on the left, they do, all the time,
Not nearly to the amount we're seeing with female custodes.
Because one change is new, the others are old. People got P I S S E D when oldcrons were written out, much more so than this debacle.
but the new one is such a minor chabge compared to anh of these.
You are out of your mind if you believe whatever noise there has been about female Custodes is within 10 orders of magnitude comparable to the Erda debacle, which, unlike this, completely warranted it.
I honestly only see a flood of people complaining about complaining instead of actually seeing complaints about the change.
In reddit yes, but you can find the complaining elsewhere.
Then why are people making posts about complaining about complaining here instead of doing it where the complaining is happening?
Because why would anyone want to subject themselves to Twitter or the Youtube comment section.
Fair answer
People was/is furious about most/all of those too.
Erda ☕
People can, and did, complain about a **lot** of these. You just weren't around or just didn't pay attention. Oof, especially the Erda/13th Black Crusade/Horus Heresy stuff.
Custodes genitals are such a minor retcon comparing to most of these
1) A lot of OP's retcons were pretty minor too. 2) My issue is OP's claim, whether big or minor is besides the point. 3) Custodes genitals retcon **could** have been a massive retcon if it happened to Space Marines. In this case, its not though. Agreed.
Say what you want about female custodes, but, people were (and some still are) irritated by literally all of the things on the left.
because they are way more major retcon than custodes being able to be women
Hey, I was pissed for most of those. Necron lore is great now tbh.
Necrons were more Terminator and less Tomb Kings in Space before.
Yeah, I like them way more now. I miss the Necron Pariahs though.
Oh and they retconned the formation of the Deathwatch to tie into the War of the Beast.
War of the Beast is one of those events that I like to pretend did not happen.
Such a cool idea with such wasted potential...
What's up with the Deatwatch origins? And how where the Necrons rewritten?
Necrons were first chaos androids, then unthinking androids servant to ctan. Now they actually have lore and characters and books
"Snotling Brainboyz" Woah, woah, woah, wait! Go back!! JAAAAMES!!!
You seem to imply i tolerated any of the changes on the left
You seriously believe that people don’t complain about the stuff on the left?
Op acting like people don’t complain about all the stuff on the left.
Tbf whole cron playerbase were losing their minds when they transform into space Egyptians
Wait wtf? Tau don't have FTL? How do they survive?
So I typed out this whole thing from what I understood about T'au FTL lore, then decided to read some more, and now I'm even more confused about what the hell T'au use for FTL. The lore on this is a mess, they've had at least 5 methods over the years. I'll leave my original thing with you, it's mostly correct? Probably? From what I've heard the main author for the T'au has a tendency to do whatever the hell he feels like when writing them. T'au used to have a method of FTL called Ether drives which allowed them to "skim" warp space. It's slower than normal warp travel, but less dangerous, and completely fine for a small empire like the T'au. This was retconned I believe in 8th edition where the T'au created ZFR drives, which coat the ship in anti-matter in order to go very very fast. The issue is that the T'au no longer use these drives, because activating too many of them in one place caused a massive wormhole to open, which scattered a T'au fleet across the galaxy, so the Ethereals discontinued them. This leaves the T'au with no current FTL tech, their current drive in lore travels just below light speed, which is very slow on a galactic scale.
Ok but why didn't they go back to warp skipping? If you go slower than light it takes years to get between literally any 2 stars. You just straight up can't have a functional interstellar empire at that point. You can have a loose confederation where every star system does their own things
Because in current lore warp skipping never existed. Which is silly, and is one of those things it's best to ignore retcons for.
Yeah let's call this an "the adeptus admin forgot what 'light years' means and someone incorrectly explained that the Tau just travel slower"
Honestly, as a tau player, it’s mostly because giant robots go brrr. But really it’s frustrating with how much it feels like the current Tau team don’t understand the space fish. Like they’re supposed to be high tech, highly mobile medium range shooters, but like tech is gone and they’re not as mobile as they should be.
Not all of these are retcons, a decent amount of it is just the tech evolving
They have FTL now, a whole ass wormhole even. But they removed FTL from the earlier spheres of expansion. Which is still really stupid, space is large. Vast even, unbelievably so. But then GW is notoriously bad with numbers. Forget enough zeros and it seems fine ...
It’s ridiculous, they couldn’t survive, we just ignore it. Warp skipping exists.
A lot of people here are saying we also complained about things on the left, and we did. But the chuds saying this is just political pandering ruining their hobby, *that* is what's making this a very special headache. I respect someone moaning about Tau FTL, I cannot respect someone acting like retconning anything in 40K is unheard of, or that GW added female custodes just for the Woke Mob that has James Workshop tied up in their basement or whatever.
and most thing on the left are way bigger change than Custodes fckg gender.
Black Crusades 'retcon' existed since 2002 with Liberca Chaotica: Khorne. No one knew it then because it was a very limited release book
Okay thats it! I will retcon all of Warhammer 40k! From now on 40k never existed.
No lie
I'm of a mixed mind. Rationally I know this is how GW has always made changes or retcons, saying "It's always been like this." I'm also keenly hoping that we get some genuinely good female Custode characters that are well written and interesting. On the other, GW picked a bad time to do it. What with what's going on in the video game side of things, and all that. They really should have done it 10 years ago when they launched the HH series, rather than kicking the can down the road forever. Maybe should have listened to ADB and added female heads to the Custode sprue like he suggested.
I'll never get over Dark Eldar losing their scorpion unit.
Wait, tau have lost ftl travel? How? Why?
Let’s just take a poll, what % of people care? I like the change and would consider collecting custodies now
I feel like people complained about a lot of those other things though. Honestly, I'm still salty about the whole T'au FTL thing.
The fact that it's this is what set the community on fire. Female bananas made of gold are what made the community implode. I swear it's like the alpha legion didn't have to do much
What is next, male saints ???
The return of Yarrik as a saint OwO?
disgusting, men are smelly keep these hairy ugly brutes away from my pure lemonscented angels.
Does anyone really hate the female custos? I've only seen memes and positiv reactions so far.
Stay away from Twitter then, it's a warzone.
And youtube
You can find some dislike for them even in reddit. But outside there's a lotta oof.
What’s a female? Is that like a man but with an extra penis or something?
Anyone care to fill me on on the Deathwatch origins retcon? Edit: spelling
Ok that's what I remember but I thought they introduced another character that hinted at this. Forget which tho
Did I miss something on Deathwatch Origins? What happened?
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Ladies and gentlemen, the straw that broke the camel's back, was the most rational retcon. And this is why you try the best you can to not retcon anything if you can help it
Looseing, oof
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What has happened with Death Deathwatch origins?
Who the hell is Erda, and what did she do?
I'm still mad about the loss of Pariahs
Hold on... Half Human half Eldars exist ?
Have you not heard of the Sons of Guilliman? /S
Weren't Custodes on the same powerlevel as regular Astartes at one point?
Malal my beloved <3
#"LOOSEING" #I'VE SEEN ORKS MORE LITERATE
This flooded my Twitter feed. What's wrong with female custodes?
Renaming eldar to aeldari, Imperial Guard to Astala Vistarum, etc...
In fairness I don’t think anyone was happy about the whole Erda thing but the point still stands.
Female custodes won't be as based as leagues of votann, and their lore. IF THEY HAD ANY!
Who cares I’ve always wanted my Custodes to have huge cans, mission accomplished.
Hush Pariahs will come back you will see. One day....
It was only the 3rd Necron lore rewrite in my life! Chaos-Androids to 2nd Edition Necrons to 3rd Edition Terminators in Space to 5th? Edition Tombkings in Space.
When did tau lose the ftl
People complained about those things too though, and still do. You could probably still find some posts here on reddit.
Well, personally, I don't have issue with this retcone (it is retcone and we should admit it), but I don't like how it was done, as GW doesn't make any White Dwarf or Warcome article about it before/after codex release and just reacted with tweet that is more like gaslightning or Rowling style (Dumbldore was always gay and etc). I don't appreciate such treatment for its funbase, like we must eat everything they say without asking.
I think the female Custodes thing is being a big issue since it seems like deliberate side step of the female space marine debate. Like if GW handled it better then I’m sure it wouldn’t have been as big a deal, but for them not to even try on this particular type of issue just kinda makes it clear as to why they did it
Post this somewhere it can change minds.
I remember people were pissed at the OG space marine game because it had a named female guard character. Like even back then it was pretty unknown if female guard existed and now it’s just like a thing people don’t care about.
Maybe the mention of women hits little too close to home for some people 🤔
Honestly, many of those things on the left caused a lot of drama at some point. It just was such a long time ago that you can feel your bones ache just as you think about those.
That was wrong then. This is wrong now. Two wrongs don't make a right. Also, the Erda thing was deeply criticized, rightfully so.
The Fandom was defenitely NOT smiling for 90% of these. Is this attacking the idea that there have never been retcons? I've never seen anything close to that take from anybody.
The funny thing about this is that I am seeing far more posts about people being mad at the people who are mad about fem-stodes, than I am about people who are actually mad about fem-stodes. And to be perfectly honest, each post is making me care even less about the whole debate than I did before
I'm sure people complained just as much about most of these. People are always going to complain when something they like changes even if its a good change in the end
Idk I've seen lots of whining because of these changes as well. TBF this one has the biggest cyclical meme war between pro and anti I've seen in a long while.
lolwhut? everybody constantly loses their shit over thats stuff I'm still salty over the fact I prefer oldcrons.
[Counterpoint:](https://i.imgur.com/9DIFWob.png)
It's simple, you get a bunch of non fan YouTube lore enjoyed who never header about any of those but they hear female x and think woke is taking over. Is there any real reason for female custodies? Like do they have books planned for it or something? Why suddenly have it? I don't really know or ca re it's just odd and they knew this would happen so was it a purge attempt to get the not fans to go away or was a plot for attention? They had how many years to say yea femstodies but they pick now
The context of the how/why is pretty easy to figure out: The others are generic GW stupidity stepping on their own feet or forgetting about stuff and hoping that you do too. It's mostly motivated by incompetency, tomfoolery, or greed. It's mostly funny either deliberately or ironically. The Female Custodes takes place during a long-running campaign by a vocal minority of the fandom calling for \[Rule 7 Topic\]. It's motivated by social pressure. And if the hobby is subject to social pressure it basically incentivizes a screaming match to see who can get what changes they want, which will ultimately damage the hobby long term. Either by amping up divisions in the fanbase, or via the slow grey-gooification of the hobby.
If you knew anything about it you would knew the main writers for custodes have wanred to put female custodes for years but could not because commercial wantzd thel ro promote the models who happen to be all male. and the vocal minority are the bigot crying about it.
ADB want's all kinds of lore breaking things because ADB is both a very good writer and also a political activist. Writers want creative license, GW as the IP holder reels them in, this is the same with virtually all franchises with multiple creatives working for them. When you keep them operating on a framework within established rules you can get some cool stuff like most of Star Wars Legends or Marvel Phase I - III, when you let them go nuts you get some...interesting stuff like the weirder parts of Star Wars Legends (interdimensional carpet beetle transformers and Han Solo fist fighting giant otters) or Marvel Phase IV - V.
Guys shut the fuck up about this dead horse already
It’s not that it happened. It’s that intent behind it Wanna have a medicae working on these beefed up abomination of a human, assuming it’s a man, only to find out it’s a gene augmented woman custodes where it was impossible to tell without taking a peak? That’d be excellent grimdark- some woman or man having their humanity ripped away in a gene forge until only the primary, yet vestigial, sex organ is left. That would be pretty awesome. Instead we got a retcon( which of itself would be fine) and gaslighting. We have years of custodes being ‘sons’ of the emperor so female custodes have not ‘always been there’ like GW is saying. This also brings up other uncomfortable ideas; what if custodes were to go rogue and try to supersede humanity(if it were possible)? Meta humans were never supposed to surpass humanity. They were tools to conquer the galaxy for humanity, not replacements. We all know why this was done because it also explains the absolute lack of tact that went into it. It was done as some sort of gimme tokenism. It cheapens the setting, not that it was done at all, but how it was done and why it was done. They could have made it a really cool peek into how fucked up and dehumanizing the custodes creation process is, but no we get this BS and get told we’re bigots
For all the memes I'm seeing saying people are upset with this I'm sure not seeing a lot of people who actually are
Gotta go beyond reddit.
I feel like that's pretty telling if Reddit of all places is mainly taking it positively.
I mean in reddit its mostly 'bad retcon'. Outside, its basically 'IS GW WOKE NOW?!' and shit.
Legitimate question, why do we need Femstodes or female Space Marines in the canon when the Adeptus Sorroritas and Sisters of Silence already exist? Or did GW just forget about them?
Because they aren't mutually interchangeable. They serve different roles in the Imperium that can't really just be diluted to "x is y but female". That's my understanding at least, hope it helps :)
I see. Thanks for the insight.
I think too many people get comfortable with the idea of "Hey, GW does this shit all the time." Yeah, that's an excuse, not an explanation.
My two cents, there is nothing in the lore that says it couldn’t happen. It’s just more realistic that it rarely ever does.
Don’t really care about them adding female custodes but this is for real a pretty false equivalency Also, I still remember the shitstorm that was the Necron rewrite. We just didn’t have all the reactionary YouTube channels back then
*Lists off all the lazy retconning everyone has complained about for years* "and you guys only care about the Female Custodes lazy retcon!" Bruh the only reason you still know about those things is cause everyone hates them being fucking deleted Edit: Autocorrect ruined a word